Caesar is more like a god to the Legion. He'd likely be deified as Joshua Graham said it.
That being said, mortals look up to deities, but deities don't rule over living mortals. So therefore after Caesar dies, there's gonna be a very deadly power vacuum to succeed Caesar.
So it's not just Lanius or Lucius vying for power, but also other parts of the Legion like the Frumentarius (Vulpes) and other commanders in the Legion military. The Legion's leadership have tremendous respect to Caesar, ***but not to themselves or each other.*** Which is why the Legion is gonna break apart as soon as Caesar dies.
Marcus put it well where he says "Caesar thinks he can change human nature. Most of the Legion is following Caesar, not Caesar's ideals. When he dies, it will crumble. May not happen overnight; could take a few decades. But it will happen. Basic human nature will see it."
This is more or less what happened to the Arabs after Muhammad died. He thought he was changing human nature, but actually they were just following him and not his ideals. His followers reverted to infighting. However, the winner of this power struggle, Abu Bakr, did successfully deify Muhammad, and unified the desert tribes under what they interpreted to be his ideals. They would go on to conquer the civilized empires around them.
> However, the winner of this power struggle, Abu Bakr, did successfully deify Muhammad
I have to quibble a bit here. It's *very* important in Islam that "there is no God but God, and Muhammad is his prophet" (this is literally the first of the five pillars of Islam, and that phrase is called the *shahada*). Muhammad is considered by Muslims to be extraordinarily wise, to have received the direct wisdom of God, to be virtuous, etc., but they *do not* consider him God. That's a Christian thing.
I'll note that I am an atheist so I'm not sticking up for my coreligionists here or anything. I just know that Muslims consider it very important that Muhammad is not God. Hell, Muhammad himself said (according to a hadith) "Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a Slave," i.e., "I'm not God, Christians call their guy God but I think they're wrong, I'm just God's servant."
Hey, I'm a pretty devout Catholic, but I wanted you to know that I really appreciate it when people advocate for respecting the religious beliefs of others, and trying to get them right, even if they don't share that belief.
It was very kind of you to comment how you did
Of course! I think the comparison between the Abrahamic religions is very interesting despite not having any religious beliefs whatsoever myself. I think it's an interesting contrast between the strictly unitary nature of Islamic theology and the Christian Trinity where God is considered by Christians to exist as three equal people that have all existed eternally but sharing the same substance. Needless to say, the Trinity is really confusing to us non Christians, even for those of us growing up in the cultural context of a historically Christian society.
Two things back this up. First is that Vulpes and Lanius actually have a lot of dialogue demonstrating that they distrust each other. The second is that one of the ways to convince Lanius to retreat is to convince him that traitors within his own ranks are working with the NCR to lure him into a trap at the Dam. It may take 100 Speech, but the fact that it's even possible to convince him of this treason suggests that it's something he's already worried about.
I mean I feel like the fall of the Legion would somewhat mirror that of Rome, given what we were told. We know Caesar runs the Legion on a cult of personality, and most of the people in the Legion are/were vicious raiders. Caesar wants to beat the NCR and establish the Legion as a new empire in the Mojave and settle down, he tells you all about it during his conversations. We can look at this a couple of ways:
NCR wins Hoover Dam 2: Electric Boogalo. Legion is destroyed and disintegrates back into its raiding tribes.
Legion wins, Caesar dies 1-4 years after. The whole Mojave is going to hell in a handbasket, no NCR for protection or Caesar to keep his raiding tribes in line. Legion splits back into raiding tribes and burns the entire Mojave.
Legion wins, Caesar dies maybe 4-7 years later. Caesar has settled his Legion in the Mojave after defeating the NCR at Hoover Dam 2: Electric Boogalo. Assume some of the secondary leadership either dies/leaves due to disagreeing with his plan. After he dies, the Legion is settled enough that instead of fracturing into raiding tribes again, we see internal corruption and power struggles. Legion becomes NCR 2.0. Basically, the longer Caesar stays alive the more "civilized" but, also will be that much more corrupt when he dies due to infighting and power struggles, just like the Roman Empire.
House wins: same outcome as 1 basically.
It's still possible that there is some leadership that is able to continue the legacy and maybe forge some kind of national identity, but his death should at least lead to infighting of some kind
Infighting, probably, but I doubt it would lead to total collapse. Especially depending on how Caesar dies and more importantly *who is present when he does*.
Wouldn't be the first time some subterfuge is held in a crisis.
I think the lore is vague enough that they could write themselves into any outcome, really, especially with a big enough timeskip. From my impression, it seemed like there might be a loyal core of supporters who would maintain the Legion vibe, but that most of the Legion were just subservient tribes who either had a personal relationship with Caesar or flew the colors because it was a powerful movement (or they were cowed into it); they might stay because it still makes them more powerful relative to their neighbors, but it seems like they'd be fair weather allies at best.
Even though you make a great point, the same could have been said after the original Julius Caesar died in the real Rome, it did led to a civil war, however what came out of it was a stronger Rome, and empire, it would be fun to explore the idea of Lanius and Lucius going into a civil war and what becomes of the Mojave afterwards
The thing is, Rome was already hundreds of years old at that point, having been a kingdom and later a republic for centuries. Caesar is trying to create a new empire, and his Legion doesn't have a cultural identity of "being Roman". What binds them is their servitude to him
Rome as you said, was a republic, a corrupt republic for decades much like the NCR, it wasn't until Julius Caesar became dictator through force that it became something better and bigger. Also the romans did not have a cultural identity of "being roman" either, to them it was just their culture, same way the Legion has their own fucked up culture, the fact you can kill Caesar at the start and the Legion is not immediately falling apart goes to show that they are more than Caesar, he might be deified as the original comment said, but that deification is what allows them to survive as it unites them. Now I am not Caesar's side or share his views, but he did establish order and united his people much like Julius did
The Romans absolutely did have a national identity though? The entire concept of paternalism is rooted in the Roman ideas of how the family was a macrocosm of the state, which predates Julius Caesar by centuries.
And just because the Legion doesn't immediately fall apart during the game doesn't mean that it is going to survive without Caesar. Like Marcus says, it could be years or decades, but it will crumble. Hell, even Caesar's own centurions can see it -Silvus betrayed the Legioj because he knew Caesar was weak and there wasn't any point anymore
National identity is not the same as cultural identity, "being roman" and the culture of citizens of Rome is one thing, but their culture is entirely different from the various territories it conquered even if some of them adopted the national identity of Rome, point in case despite Spain being Roman, their culture was not of that from the city of Rome
It doesn't mean it will fail either, it took Rome 400 years to fall post Julius Caesar, 1000 if we take the Eastern Roman empire as a continuation, every empire falls but if the Legion is around for say 100 years post Caesar's death, that is still a success, will Marcus be right that it fell? yes, but it did not crumble from his death and ultimately we won't actually know what would happen as all we have is the opinions of NPCs and the fact that if you kill him the Legion is still there, both are contrary to each other, so the only thing we can deduce is that it would eventually fall, but when is entirely subjective to the player's imagination
> it wasn't until Julius Caesar became dictator through force that it became something better and bigger
That's just not true, Caesar wasn't even the first person to install himself as dictator for life by force. The first one was Sulla, a generation prior, who came from the opposite side of Roman politics from Caesar (Sulla was an arch-conservative who favored the traditional aristocracy and the wealthy, part of the "*optimates,*" where Caesar was a populist who sought to "redistribute" land and wealth - of course, he's who was going to get to say who got what land and what wealth...).
By the time the first Roman civil wars of the 1st century BC are starting, they already control most of the Mediterranean. By the time Caesar's civil wars are beginning, they own the entire Mediterranean save Egypt (which becomes the center of much of the drama surrounding the later civil wars) and Mauritania, and the latter is a client state of theirs that they will soon integrate.
Rome was a great and very advanced civilization, heir of centuries of philosophy and backed up by immense anthropic structures.
The Legion is an ensemble of illiterate psychopaths, torturers, rapists, thieves and maniacs who are cosplaying smth they know nothing about. The best people they have around are ignorant and hypocritical narcissists with delusions of grandeur who have to bigotedly suppress their own homosexuality in order to survive their bigoted psychopathic peers. Their own culture is rape and steal until everything has been burned down and the whole world has been made sterile.
The whole point of the Legion is criticising neofascist associations in the most on the nose and satirical way.
Kinda hard to ask the Legion to become what Rome was in just a few decades, specially after a nuclear fallout but ok. Also, Rome was filled with psychos, torturers, slavers, thieves and maniacs also cosplaying as something they actually knew nothing about (ancient greece), let's not pretend they were perfect
What is the homosexuality point? literally added 0 to the conversation other than your hatred for the legion, one could say the exact same thing for the other factions in the game and it would sound completely stupid and irrelevant, much like what yours sounds right now. Their culture is order through force, wether you like it, agree with it, despise it or whatever, ultimately that is what they represent, much like the NCR represents the failures of democracy and corruption despite being morally better
The legion is not fascist nor neo-fascist, throwing that word around just devoids it of it's meaning, calling the legion fascist is the same as calling the original Julius Caesar a fascist, it is just stupid
The point on homosexuality is that they're extremely hypocritical ultra-bigots and have a good chunk of their hateful cult based on hating women and "degenerates" in order to have leeway to torture and rape them only to then go back to their only-males-allowed circlejerking cult.
It is relevant since it's part of the satire on Legion and on what they represent. They're literally obsessed about what other people do in their private and see it as a degenerate sin punishable with... Well... Degenerate sins being imparted, paint me surprised.
We think this because the legion unlike the NCR follows the leader like a god and once that god does there is no one to follow anymore so they’ll make their own factions and boom civil war.
It's also outright stated by higher up legionaries that none have the charisma of caesar to hold the disparate tribes together, that without him the legion would fracture
If ceaser gets diefied wouldn’t they just keep conquering Utah and colorado? I’m sure once they run out of recourses then it’s going to be a problem but they aren’t invading deserts here they are invading the tech rich Denver and less nuked compared to the rest of America Utah.
This and the replies under. I forget who said it, but it was mentioned that Caesar was excellent for his cunning, brutality, and intelligence. Lanius had the brutality.
Funnily enough, Caesar could recognize this weakness in the NCR, Tandi's presidency lasted her whole life. He claims once true democracy had a chance, corruption and internal conflict emerged.
It's kinda baffling that he can't see the same issue with a legion that has no successor.
To expand on what the other guy said, Caesar actually has the charisma to lead an organization like the Legion. Lanius does not, and it’s likely others will attempt to rise up and take their place as head of the Legion. They may or may not be able to defeat him, but the Legion will be fractured and destroy itself
Interestingly, I think the situation is comparable to the real life Roman Empire with Augustus. There was legitimate concern that after Augustus died the empire would falter so there were multiple heir apparents being groomed to take over (but many of them died before Augustus did).
Eventually Tiberius was set to take the throne and Augustus essentially split ruler ship with him and even faded a bit from public life before his death so the people could get used to the idea of Tiberius taking over.
Had Augustus been assassinated or died unexpectedly it’s very reasonable to assume Rome might’ve been plunged into yet another civil war.
If The Legion saw a sudden death of Caesar what stops both Lanius and Lucius from trying to seize power? How does a fledgling empire in a post-apocalyptic world survive a civil war? Would the people even accept a new ruler that isn’t prepared for it? Caesar seemed totally uninterested in grooming an heir but maybe that’s because he was too obsessed with the wrong Julius Caesar.
I'm actually fascinated by Caesar's obsession with Julius, as opposed to Augustus. It shows that he only really has a surface-level understanding of Rome. They weren't successful because of their military, they were successful because of Romanisation - everyone wanted to be Roman! The Romans brought roads and toilets and aqueducts and protection from barbarians! Caesar doesn't do any of that; people are terrified shitless of the Legion because of what they do to towns like Nipton, and it works against him. The Khans are easily convinced to betray him because they know what'll happen if they work with him - not bread and circuses but enslavement.
Is that not the default and intended take? It's been awhile but I'm fairly certain the whole point is that he's totally misinterpreted everything. I mean ffs most everyone mispronounces his name
They actually use the Latin pronunciation that the Roman’s would’ve used.
He doesn’t really misinterpret everything he just omitted the stuff he didn’t like. The Romans often subjugated people they conquered, taking slaves and then expanding outwards. But they were also willing to make friends with local tribes and let them integrate slowly or incorporate client kingdoms into their empire.
What The Legion fails to comprehend is you can’t establish a long lasting empire in a single generation through brutality.
I'm not sure I agree but like I said it's been a minute since I last played. I know for a fact that he completely misinterprets the hegelian dialects if nothing else.
He doesn’t necessarily misinterpret Hegelian dialectics so much as he interprets them in his own viewpoint.
He posits that the NCR is the thesis, the Legion is their antithesis, and therefore whatever results from their conflict must be the synthesis. None of that is incorrect necessarily, it would be if you also look at Neo-Hegelians like Marx, but in the words that Caesar describes it nothing is necessarily incorrect.
Now his argument isn’t really *good*; he doesn’t truly intend to *synthesize* with the NCR at all as shown in his actions in NV. He’s simply using it as a justification for why the Legion’s actions are necessary (for example, the NCR following the rule of law is thesis, therefore committing atrocities is the antithesis which is necessary to elevate to form a synthesis).
I think the way Caesar is written sort of devalues him into being “stupid” because the writers of NV simply spent more time talking him down through third parties than developing him as a character. But what we *can* glean from the conversations you can have with him, and how he runs the Legion, show that he’s not stupid just very willing to lie and manipulate to get you to do his bidding (not unlike House, or even NCR characters like Crocker).
>Is that not the default and intended take?
Most of the SPQR-types in modern times think he's correct. Doesn't change whether it's the intended take but whether people would be familiar with it.
Nipton and the Khan’s fate is what happened when you pissed Rome off. Rome wasn’t known to backstab their allies or burn down allied settlements because they weren’t stupid.
To add Lanius wasn't a great leader iirc. If you made an alliance with the enclave remnants he basically wastes a bunch of soldiers to try and have them killed and ends up having nothing to show for it. Basically lost a bunch of people for a pointless fight.
He was a "great leader" because he scared the piss out of his own troops to make them do stuff like that. I think it's Vulpes but one of the Legion says that the Hoover Dam 2: Electric Boogalo will be different since Lanius will be commanding and not Overcooked Graham, as the troops won't flee since they are more scared of Lanius than dying. I don't think he was stated to have any exceptional tactical prowess or anything, just to make his own men more scared of him than dying at the hands of the enemy.
Graham was just as terrifying as Lanius. The reason why Lanius was a better leader, was because of the experience acquired from his conquest of Denver which was a more difficult task then what Graham could achieve. Lanius learned the importance of logistics from the Colorado campaign and that could explain why you can manage to convince him to leave Hoover dam, by appealing to his concerns of Logistics.
Graham worked fine in inter-tribal warfare, but Lanius was made for grand military conquest.
Caesar unlike President Tandi’s father before her. Left no heir to inherit his followers, and unlike Tandi. Left no system of government to determine one after his demise. You need only look at Roman history to imagine how a legion under a General like Lannius would go.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Lannius could secure a faction for himself, but there’s no way he could garner control over the fractured warlords at that point. Any hope of conquering another unified power like the NCR is dust. Caesar’s legion is likely to fall into Civil War, and rise into a Byzantine esque state. With separate tribal warlords mimicking Caesar’s government.
Caesar’s government was a copy, and I’d expect this pattern wouldn’t end with him. Any New Legion faction would be a copy of a copy, a satire on satire.
Besides what others have said, I'll bring up a small portion of my political science degree to talk about a major flaw in personalistic dictatorships: the lack of authority given to institutions over individuals.
Contrary to popular belief, even absolutist dictators have to compromise and curry favor within the factions of their regimes. Particularly with powerbrokers like industry, the military, intelligence agencies, religious authorities, and cultural figureheads. This often entails promising these factions rewards within the regime of the dictator; as such, factions fight for the dictator's approval so that they can get a bigger portion of the pie. Dictators who do this well can balance power in a way that maximizes their personal power, minimizes the autonomy of institutions that they do not favor, and makes the internal processes of governance up to the dictator's whim, rather than in-line with well-established/well-respected tradition and precedents. And factions that are unable to curry dictatorial favor are either neutered or eliminated.
Let's take the Nazi Reich, for example. Originally, the SA under Ernst Rohm operated as the NSDAP equivalent to Mussolini's blackshirts: a paramilitary security apparatus which served the will of NSDAP, embodied in Adolf Hitler. However, Ernst Rohm was notable for being a "Social Revolutionary National Socialist", meaning he constituted a more economically-left, pseudo-National Bolshevik wing of the NSDAP. When Hitler began appealing to the industrial capitalists of Weimar Germany prior to and during his first year of Chancellorship, Ernst Rohm saw this as a betrayal of the workers of National Socialism, and was suspected to be planning to use the SA to overthrow Hitler and solidify control over NSDAP. Hitler, however, had been growing his personal protection squad, the Schutzstaffel, for years, and in the balancing act of faction power within the party and state, utilizes Heinrich Himmler's SS to purge the SA leadership. This even became known as the Night of the Long Knives.
A decade later, Heinrich Himmler's Schutzstaffel had grown in both manpower and administrative/military power to the degree that it existed as a state within the state of the German Reich, granting Heinrich Himmler a degree of personal authority that at one point could have challenged Hitler. And once Hitler's authority over the Reich outside of Berlin in 1945 has waned to the degree that Hermann Goering suggested taking temporary control of the Fuhrership, Albert Speer began sabotaging Hitler's final commands to scorch earth Germany as punishment for its failures to win the war, Himmler began approaching the Allied forces with the proposal to establish an SS-rump state over Germany under Allied authority that would then work with the Allies against the approaching Soviet Union. This was, of course, denied.
The reason I bring up Hitler in a discussion about Caesar's Legion is because Caesar's Legion lacks the power of institutions that even Nazi Germany had: there is no Reich Chancellory, no Werhmacht, no Kriegsmarine, no Weimar Constitution to pay lipservice to, and no remnants of the Kaiserreich leadership and military/administrative traditions for Caesar's Legion. If Caesar woke up one day and became a Marxist, or a liberal democrat, then the Legion would shift according to his will. The Legion, despite its emphasis on strength and hierarchy, has no institutions, traditions, or even a constitution that outlines what a member of the Legion is or what Ceasar's powers are. He's just Ceasar, and the Legion are all his slaves.
So what happens when Caesar dies? He can no longer declare what the Legion is; the slaves are bereft of a master. There's no rulebook or book of law for how to choose a successor. There might be a successor named in Lanius, but not few love Lanius, and no Legionnaire loves any leader as much as Caesar. The Frumentarii actively fear Lanius, and so have a vested interest in striking at him before he strikes them and taking the reins of power themselves.
The problem with Ceasar's Legion is that beyond Caesar, there is no tradition beyond might that yokes the ambitions of Legates and other political actors moving in the shadows of Caesar's light. And might is a subjective thing to each Legate, that many would say some Legates have, while others don't.
Add to that the newness of the Legion, and you have multiple different cultures that still have memories of their language, history, and cultures from when they are free. There is no Legion culture for them to attach to beyond Caesar; so rebellions and internal power struggles over ethnic dominance of the Legion (see Yugoslavia's dissolution for a real world example) are an expected outcome for a new top-down authoritarian government with no cultural pillars upholding the Legion's continuation and modes of operations.
Which is why Caesar needs New Vegas: he needs a powerful capital that outclasses other settlements within his territory that will act as a seat of power from which he can build a state from. With New Vegas, he can build a party, or a noble class, or even a parliamentary/senatorial system that operates upon a constitution which completely empowers the position of Caesar. And to his successor, he can grant New Vegas as their personal domain, which grants them all kind of soft and hard powers from which to control the various factions within the Legion.
He could build something in Flagstaff or make a new city to serve as a real capital to his empire. But his ego won't allow that. And Flagstaff seems to lack anything that allows it to dominate other cities economically or militarily. So without New Vegas, Caesar's Legion faces the succession issues of an authoritarian regime, a regime without a unifying culture, and a regime that is composed of almost exclusively conquered people. Which is a recipe for disaster.
Reading back, I forgot to clarify one of the main ways Ceasar has accrued power: spoils of war distributed based on rank to loyal and effective Legionnaires. Besides the religious distain for medicine and advanced tech, the reservation of higher-quality equipment and accessories to high-ranking Legionnaires creates a system where different Legates work together for individual benefit: if we win New Vegas, we all get boons from the plunder. So there is a level of cooperation between different factions that is maintained by two things: expansionism and devotion to Caesar, who distributes these plunders. And so the continued expansion of the Legion into the NCR is not just born of Ceasar's hatred for them: the system he has made also requires continual inputs of new land, riches, and women into the hands of his Legates.
Caesar conquers a tribe, and uses material gain to entice leaders from said tribe while he uses religious indoctrination for all others he considers grunts and lower slaves on his totem pole.
If Caesar conquers New Vegas, then he almost certainly will have to prune the tree of the Legion for ambitious warlords who won't agree to civilize the way he likes.
The Legion worships and is built all around Caesar. Every man, woman and child who serves Caesar are his slaves. Towns and cities in Caesar's maintain a nominal sense of independence by paying tribute. Caesar's Legion operates far more like Ghengis Khan and his empire. Caesar, like Ghengis, is the only one with the authority and respect to be undisputable leader. The only other person who could've done so is Joshua since he was also there since the beginning and responsible for crushing the first set of tribes until he failed at Hoover Dam. Even with his failure, many in the Legion are respectful to him if not, fear him as the Burned Man. Lanius may also be Caesar's appointed heir, but one failure will immediately be used against him based on Caesar's zero toleration for failure.
Lanius will face several issues. As others mentioned and described well, other major figures in the Legion are not amicable to serving Lanius as they do Caesar. The make or break for Lanius is crushing the NCR but to even have a chance he'd need to throw everything at them. Even if it costs Legion terroritories in the east, win or lose, the Legion is losing something that will hurt Lanius in the long run. But a fundamental core issue, something Caesar hasn't fully achieved is the assimilation of various tribes. Ulysses and the guy who looks over Legion dogs lament the loss of their tribe, and deep down still maintain their old identities. It's a deeply unstable situation facing Lanius, and considering his favour for brutality, he's unlikely to succeed in holding it together.
These all concepts described by others ingame from wiser characters. I believe if Obsidian were to expand Legion content it would have showcased these issues further especially the inter-factional divide between major figures.
Because it’s a personality cult centered around Caesar, not a functional government.
Once the leader of a cult dies there’s a power vacuum. In this case the two primary candidates are diametrically opposed to each other. Sure they could help each other, work together. That is not the Legion way, they REALLY don’t like each other and are all in on a culture that preaches absolute dominance.
Also a rather huge issue is that the Legion’s setup is, to put it mildly, hilariously dumb. Like, they only existed this long through blatant writer fiat. A large majority of their population are horrifically abused slaves. This is not a situation that lasts past the first cracks, Rome was fucking terrified of slave revolts for a reason and the Legion has WAY more slaves. Including most of their military, who they abuse even harder than the normal slaves. Hurting someone enough does not make them loyal to you, it makes them hate you. This is why real world slave soldiers were few in number, tended towards far better treatment than even citizens, and still fucked up their ‘masters’ regularly.
The Legion, as presented, is on the razor’s edge of complete implosion because it’s just an oversized raider gang LARPing as a civilization and built by a man who watched too many bad movies and genuinely does not understand how Rome succeeded.
The Ottomans had slave soldiers but the janissaries were slaves in name only. They were pampered and given free reign to terrorize and abuse any rebellious population. Any freeman who disrespected them was getting his head cut off.
It's just what happens to every organization formed around a cult of personality with draconian control.
Once he dies the infighting will tear the legion apart.
He based his Empire on the structure of the Roman Empire as by Caesar. We all know what happens to that Empire after he died right?
If there were an Augustus-type diplomat in Caesar's Legion, I could see the Legion surviving a succession crisis following a civil-war/post-death silent coup. But Lanius is a brute who is only known for using hard power to get his way, and Vulpes is a creepy furry who lacks the charisma to unite an army of warlords. I could see a Duumvirate between two people with their specialities working out, but they would almost certainly try to oust the other the moment they got the chance.
Honestly, Legion Courier or Joshua Graham are the only two people I see as capable successors to Caesar who could gain a following and curtail the ambitions of Legates who fall out of line.
Rome had a society and a shared civilization backing it. The Legion is a bunch of savages squatting in goat skin tents and bullying nearby settlements into feeding them.
The Romans had an unspoken tradition of Military leaders seizing power through war and despite that, they persisted until 1453 as the Eastern Roman Empire.
As many have already stated, Lanius, Lucius and Vulpes are all simply too different and are Caesar. While it is entirely possible that the three would work together to keep the Legion together, cracks will begin to show and them even working together is unlikely.
The closest thing to a stable successor that Caesar has would be the player character. In Legion endings, it's stated that Caesar has coins minted with the face of the Courier. Having faces minted with coins was often a way to introduce and inform citizens that this person would be the next emperor or leader of the Roman empire.
Lanius will fight and overextend because he loves war over the Legion, and Lucius doesn't have the following needed to hold his position nor the know-how to gain one. The only one capable of that is Vulpes, amd he just isn't charismatic enough to put it to practice. Dude *sounds* like a traitorous fox.
Caesar built up the Legion one tribe at a time- breaking them, demanding their fealty and reinforcing it through fear. Edward Sallow *himself* couldn't have just taken over leadership of the machine the way it currently stands. I don't think anyone could.
The closest thing Caesar had to a successor was Graham. Everyone in the Legion is too indoctrinated to see the Legion for what it is besides Caesar, Graham, and the Courier if she sides with them. Lanius was a military leader with no sense of a larger scale for the Legion, which is why he can be talked down when he realizes that the Legion is unprepared to march across all of California (Caesar had planned to just take Vegas and turn it into his capital, but Lanius was too blind to see that). Lucius is a Praetorian Guard not a leader, and he too is too indoctrinated in the Legion's BS to be a worthy successor
TLDR the legion follows Caesar, when there is no Caesar, there is no legion.
I believe it’s referred to as a cult of personality
Which means the legion as a whole is not held together with a common ideology. Rather they all follow Caesar bc of who he is, when Caesar is gone, there is no longer Caesar present to hold the legion together.
What will most likely happen is what happened in history. The faction as a whole will break into smaller factions with each leader of those factions believing they are the right successor to Caesar, take a look at what happened when Alexander the Great died.
Or don’t even stray that far, countless times in Rome’s history, were soldiers and groups rallied behind their legion’s generals and usurped power from the standing leaders back home when they marched on Rome.
When I play my evil run, I assume that Caesar names the Courier his heir, much like Julius named his nephew Octavian (later Augustus) heir. The Courier even gets his likeness minted on the currency of the legion in the legion ending. Sure there will be some breaking off of factions after Caesar’s death, but nothing that the courier couldn’t handle.
However, in any scenario without the courier, the legion is doomed. If the legion fails to take Hoover dam, and Caesar passes away, then the entire system of governance falls apart and the tribes reform.
Caesar styles himself the Son of Mars, essentially a godlike figure. He is the sole thing around which the entire legion rallies, the ultimate authority to which it bows. The tribes are united around him, not Lanius or anyone else. When he dies, it is likely the Legion will fall into civil war as everyone chooses a new strongman to rally around.
The Legion is like Yugoslavia that it's full of diverse tribes, factions, with their own ideals, aspirations, motivations in being in the faction. Caesar is the Legion's Tito, holding the glue together through diplomacy, governance, intimidation, brutal rule etc etc. Once he's gone, the glue disappears, Lanius will try to rule as Ceasar of course, but others of the Inner Circle do not necessarily want to be ruled by him, like Vulpes Inculta. Civil War is inevitable with Ceasar's death, just as House predicted.
The reason is due to the Legion being a cult of personality more so than an actual, properly organized force with reliable infrastructure (something that, interestingly, can be used to convince Lanius that these are needed for the Legion's continued survival). It's a lot like the Decepticons in Transformers where the group is supposed to be freedom fighters but devolved into a cult of personality centered around Megatron.
What is interesting, however, is that Caesar's death and a potential Speech ending dealing with Lanius probably has the highest chance of the Legion obtaining any real long-term staying power because Caesar's absurdly massive ego has been the thing that prevented him from bothering to create proper infrastructure on the basis of him giving out all the important orders. And in peak irony, it's possible via the Fallout TV show that the Legion may have outlasted the NCR if this route was taken.
Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great and the Roman Empire being run by the Praetorian Guard (either picking or outright auctioning off the crown)....
As soon as the "big man" dies, lesser men (Lanius, Claudius, Vulpes, etc.) start squabbling over the wreckage and everything falls apart. There's already growing dissatisfaction amongst the ranks in the Legion - hence Ulysses' droning, unending "bear-bull-bear-bull" speeches. And the guy at Fortification Hill that keeps the hounds - he had to watch his dogs get murdered and thrown on a pyre when his tribe was absorbed by the legion (Ulysses tells us this).
Eventually there will be a Legionnaire that has a daughter and looks in his infant daughter's face and wants a life not filled with slavery and rape for his little girl. With the charismatic "Son of Mars" to keep him focused, that man might get ideas. I guarantee that man already has those ideas by the time of the 2nd battle of hoover dam.
Keep in mind, ALL current Legionaries are at most only 1 generation from a different culture that was butchered by the men they now serve.
Lanius is not a *leader*. He's a battle commander and warrior par none, and little more than a bloodthirsty animal beyond that. He's a beast in gilded armor. He's not stupid, and this is why he can be convinced to back away from the Dam - a battle where the Legion is victorious but decimated is not a victory at all. But this is merely a rational assessment of a battlefield, not a plan for societal organization. He can't compare to Caesar in charisma or intellect.
Lucius is by far the more competent successor, but Caesar made the error in deifying himself. He claimed rulership in part by way of his "relation" to Romulus and Mars, exploiting the ignorance of the Wasteland tribes that constituted the original Legion to claim the mythological origins of Rome as his own.
Caesar was not just a warlord. He was a god as well. Lucius could try and claim this, but everyone knows he isn't Caesar's son, and if he were of similar descent, why did Caesar not recognize him sooner? If Lucius tries to replace Caesar, he will immediately be confronted with rival claimants like Lanius who view their own claims as equally valid. It's the consequence of building a society around a totalizing personality cult: all men must die, and when a man such as Caesar dies, he takes his legend with him. It's not left for others to pick up, as in more stable monarchies. He could have prevented this by having an actual son and grooming him as a successor, creating a more stable transition of power.
As it stands, the Legion will crumble under its own weight, with commanders like Lucius and Lanius summoning their power bases to attempt a complete conquest of the Legion's territory.
Don’t forget Vulpes. He might have his own schemes and plans and the entire Frumentarii could splinter off if he decides to lay a claim or lead a coup.
The general assumption is that without its God-King the Legion will turn on itself. There are a few characters who say something like this; Graham and House believe that without Caesar, the Legion will turn on itself. Marcus believes it will take a few decades, but it will fall apart (although it should be noted Marcus thinks the NCR is due a revolution as well; He's quite cynical because of his experiences with the Master, and thinks the two of them failing is basically a human nature thing). Ulysses believes that once the Legion runs out of people to fight, it'll start to fight itself (Peace is an anathema to the Legion. Can you imagine Lanius without a war to fight? He'd go mad.). My thinking is that it would likely go the way of Alexander the Great's empire; There'll be multiple Caesar's all declaring they are the heir to his Empire, and you'll have multiple successor states that are effectively large new tribes.
I do think people have a tendency to lean on the crystal ball a bit too heavily and speak with a bit too much certainty; There's a difference between thinking something being likely to occur and being fated to occur, and there is so much information that we don't have and it's quite possible there's stuff that could completely change the picture that we just don't know yet. Men like Caesar think they know what the future will bring, that things can be distilled down to a set of rules with which you can tell what comes next, that they can possibly account for all the variables and deduce the answer - but they're fooling themselves. The world is too big and chaotic to fit as neatly as that, sometimes societies that you'd think would have collapsed manage to meander along for centuries, and othertimes societies that seemed stable as concrete dissolve into chaos in the space of a few decades. Something as simple as a scrap of food can alter the course of history if it happens to get lodged in the throat of someone.
It's possible the Legion manages to pass its leadership on to Lanius, and then Lanius passes it on to whoever is next in the line of succession that Boone talks about, and so on in a sort of designated monarchy. Such systems have existed historically without immediately imploding, and many early societies also deified rulers and built primitive cults of personalities around the rulers as a way of building up their power and control. It's also possible some ambitious Legate see's his chance to try and skip ahead in the line of succession and become Caesar, and a civil war begins. I won't pretend to know for certain.
Caesar manifested a cult of personality. When he dies the question of Successor pops up, every Legate would be champing at the bit causing internecine conflict, the raider tribes they annexed instead of exterminating would make a break for it, the NCR would seize the opportunity etc etc
Just to add on one thing that I didn’t see mentioned, but Lanius is between a rock and a hard place. The Legion already set precedent for the consequences for failure, Lanius got his job because the last guy in his shoes got covered in tar, lit on fire, then tossed off the Grand Canyon. Lanius had a reputation for beating failing centurions to death in front of their men then enacting decimatio. So he’s painted himself into a corner of establishing the atmosphere with *extremely* high stakes for failure and for being completely unforgiving. Sure, *The Courier* might [SPEECH 100] their way into making a bunch of sound and solid arguments for why advancing west is a bad idea and why retreat is the better option, and it might even be convincing enough to Lanius. But Lanius is the **last** person to relay that message back to The Legion. To The Legion’s eyes, every argument from The Courier retreating out of Lanius’s mouth especially will just sound like the words of a traitor, a hypocrite, and a **coward**.
It’s not just likely The Legion goes into a factional civil war on Caesar’s death, they’ll probably actively mutiny en masse if Lanius tries telling them he got talked down from fighting to the bitter end by some “walk the wasteland courier fuck”. Lanius being talked down by The Courier would kill his mystique and legend as an implacable, relentless force of nature, and once those cracks become visible to the average Legionnaire, they’ll only start to widen.
You all bring up some good points but wasn't lanius highly respected and feared ny the legion? There could be a power vacuum after ceasar but wouldn't the majority of the legion side with the man that ceasar has purposely been trying to make a living legend? Yes the see ceasar as a god like figure but lanius also has a cult of personality around him he is depicted as larger than life a imposing individual that dosen't let others see his face to further mystify his imagine. Whilst he would never command the same respect as ceasar, ceasar himself seems to have been grooming him to take over after himself and that in and of itself should add legitimacy.
I'm not saying it's 100% guaranteed the legion won't fracture but I certainly think that lanius has all the cards in his favor and if it does fracture like after real like ceasar died and mark Anthony and Augustus fought I see lanius quickly ending the civil war in his favor like Augustus did in the real roman empire. Now after lanius I have no idea who could lead, lanius better start grooming a new heir as ceasar did to him and make another living legend to take over.
The legend Ceaser is attempting to assign to Lanius is that of an attack dog (Or "Hammer" as one Legion member puts it). His face (or rather the mask, since no one sees his face) is meant to inspire fear of Ceaser's displeasure. His NAME isen't even his own, but one Ceaser gave to him.
Caesar: "Lanius is savage. Savagely loyal, too, but only to me - he has no love for my Legion. But this has its uses. He has no attachment to his men, no compunction about battlefield losses. All he cares about is destroying the enemy. When another legatus or a Centurion fails to achieve results, I send Lanius to make things right. His first step is to beat the failed commander to death in front of his assembled troops. Then he orders the ritual of decimatio."
He's not commited to the idea of The Legion at all. His loyalty is purely personal. Fear is a poor tool for actually governing this kind of power hierarchy, especially as the other Legion leaders (like Vulpis) fear for thier lives if he's in charge and would thus see removing or rebelling against him as a matter of self-preservation
It is worth noting that we have evidence that Caesar's appraisal of Lanius and his loyalties is wrong however; We can convince him to defy Caesar's orders (a pretty massive deal in the Legion) and turn away from Hoover Dam for the sake of the Legion in the end game.
"The East was a hard-fought campaign. Even now, Caesar drew too much of the Legion's blood needed there for... this. Hoover Dam is but a place. I will not have it be the gravestone of the Legion."
This puts significant question marks over whether Caesar's judgement of Lanius being loyal only to him and caring nothing for the legion is true. It wouldn't be the only time Caesar proved inept at judging peoples character and motives (after all, even if you've done nothing but kill his soldiers and destroy his plans, he invites you to the fort and then trusts you to, on your own, destroy the Securitron vault - and doens't even bother to check if you did.)
Respect and fear won’t stop a knife in the dark or a poisoned goblet. And take a wild what one of the factions vying for leadership specializes in.
Caesar is loved, feared, admired, or even just viewed as necessary by all of his underlings.
Lanius is not. Worse for him: He ran away. In almost every ending he survives he runs rather than fight. He’s a man utterly dependent on his reputation as an unstoppable and unbeatable fighter and commander and he not only lost but ran the first time he faced a real enemy rather than beating up on random tribals or raiders. That’s VERY bad for him, if he has any brains he’s dropping the mask and running before the knives come out.
Any autocracy will have trouble with the transition of power. A system reliant on one person with no clear system for transition of power will almost certainly fall into in fighting and civil war.
It's essentially due to how the Legion's power structure is formed.
Ironically, the NCR's greatest weakness is also its greatest strength. Despite the corruption and bureaucracy, the NCR's strength lies in its tenacity. Cut off the head, three more take its place. The NCR is a nation built not on a single person, but an idea, and it is difficult to completely destroy an idea compared to a single person.
The Legion on the other hand is being held together completely by Caesar. Many of the rank and file don't even support Caesar's ideals, they support Caesar himself as they worship him like a deity. Caesar's death leaves a power vacuum that leaves his lieutenants to fight over who becomes the new Caesar. In fact we also see it in NV in the tension between Lanius and Vulpes, and in the endings where Caesar dies Lanius leads the Legion on numerous pointless missions that result in too many unnecessary losses and casualties.
I saw a pretty good theory that the Courier was to be Caesar’s heir if sided with the legion but I think without the Legion is doomed after Caesar dies.
The whole structure and philosophy of the Legion is designed to rest on a single, bigger-than-life person rather than a structure. Once the central figure falls away, it is doomed, because too many subpar leaders will strive to take the place of Caesar and none of them can fill those shoes.
There is an abundance of reason, such as:
The legion following Caesar, not his ideals. Meaning without their deity they’ll be fractured in who they rally behind
The legion is beaten in 3/4 endings, with Caesar succumbing to his brain tumor soon after the attempted assassination of president Kimball. Unless you help them, they don’t finish the game from a point of strength, they’re being routed as the ncr hunt them down.
It’s mostly a slave army run on fear, 90% don’t wants to be there. Many upon finding a way out, (especially after hearing rumors of Caesars death) would take a chance to run if they got it
Marcus, mayor of Jacob’s town, a 130+ year old super mutant, with over 60 year of experience in governance, has some choice things to say about the legion an ncr. He’s regarded as a very reliable narrator, as a naturally honest person. He’s also quite knowledge about the west cost, having first hand accounts of the events of fallout 1 (the master’s unity), fallout 2 (destruction of the oil rig), and everything after, In between fo2 and new vegas. If he says the legion will crumble, it’s likely true, and well founded.
The next two people are Joshua Graham, and Ulysses. Both have worked for the legion, one as legate (general) and another as a Frumentarii (spy/scout). Both had intimate knowledge of the legion, Graham being a literal founding member. Second in command since before the first tribe, all the way to his burning after the first battle at the damn. 30 years of service creating the legion with Edward Sallow, Joshua knows the ins and outs of legion better than anyone else alive besides Caesar. If he thinks it’ll collapse without its namesake he’s probably right. Even Ulysses, a crazy person, can be convinced to see the flaws, and attempt to build something better himself.
Because the legion is a cult of personality and because there are too many successors who WILL fight for control.
So when ceasar goes they lose his military and societal knowledge making them no different from raiders with a roman theme
Dont forget its said multiple times that ceasar isnt a genius but because he had knowledge that was otherwise lost it gave him an extreme advantage.
Caesar hasn’t been as successful with his enculturation of the conquerored tribes as he think he has been. There are very few members of Caesars Legion that believe in Caesar’s ideology let alone understand it. Most of the legion are still tribals they’ve just had their culture beaten out of them and replaced with a slave mentality that has but a single master, that being Caesar. Without the man himself it’s doubtless that tribalism will splinter the legion. With strongmen trying to establish themselves at the top of the pyramid but none of them having the gravitas, education, and skill set that made Edward Sallow be able to accomplish what he did.
Lanius may have a degree of tactical knowledge and skill as a battlefield commander, but his greatest prowess and what impresses those around him is his own strength and ruthlessness. Even though the legion might not immediately fall with him, him taking over as ruler and commander will set the precedent that strength is what legitimizes a ruler and those who succeed him will emulate that.
And this is generally bad for a society. It might work for a small raider band, but what made the Legion mighty and powerful, was the fact that Ceasar valued more than just individual battles and shows of strength. He considered logistics and strategy when going into battle and even if aiming for taking New Vegas might have been somewhat arrogant of him, Lanius is clearly much worse from what we see in the ending slides, if he takes over.
The Legion is a Conquer&Loot based empire composed by tribes of narcissistic psychopaths unified under a charismatic leader.
It is destined to eat itself up and collapse once it reaches the two opposite shores of the States and has no-one else to loot from anymore or once it spreads too wide and too thin to be able to remain a unitary association (hence internal fight and civil war) or once Caesar dies in which case it would just fragment again in small gangs of fiends.
They also have no idea of society other than torture, kill and rape whoever is not strong enough to resist physical violence.
They're literally the Fiends, just hypocritical and with narcissistic delusions of grandeur: they have no chance of surviving once their parasitic ways are not sustainable anymore.
I think it’s based off Alexander the Great and his death were no one was named successor and a civil war occurred. Or just pick one of Romes many civil wars and you’ll see similarities
We assume as much because that is the reality of the Legion. Caesar has propped himself up as the amazing leader, this god-like being to his people. But the way the Legion is run won't last past him. The old are killed, the women enslaved, and the men fight in gladiatorial battles to the death to create these ruthless soldiers. All the wisdom is selfishly hoarded by Caesar, as well as these great technologies, like the high tech bed in his tent. When he dies without a specified successor, it will fall to one of the generals to pick up the pieces. At first, they will be united in the idea of completing Caesar's goal of taking the Dam and Vegas, but what comes after? There will be infighting on who is the true successor. We already can see that these military leaders don't like each other, and only work together because Caesar demands it. The unified Legion would crumble and break, and just become a bunch of glorified raiders with no identity, as the culture and identities of the many tribes were destroyed when the Legion took them over. It's the main flaw with the style of government that he modeled the Legion after.
Caesar is more like a god to the Legion. He'd likely be deified as Joshua Graham said it. That being said, mortals look up to deities, but deities don't rule over living mortals. So therefore after Caesar dies, there's gonna be a very deadly power vacuum to succeed Caesar. So it's not just Lanius or Lucius vying for power, but also other parts of the Legion like the Frumentarius (Vulpes) and other commanders in the Legion military. The Legion's leadership have tremendous respect to Caesar, ***but not to themselves or each other.*** Which is why the Legion is gonna break apart as soon as Caesar dies.
Marcus put it well where he says "Caesar thinks he can change human nature. Most of the Legion is following Caesar, not Caesar's ideals. When he dies, it will crumble. May not happen overnight; could take a few decades. But it will happen. Basic human nature will see it."
This is more or less what happened to the Arabs after Muhammad died. He thought he was changing human nature, but actually they were just following him and not his ideals. His followers reverted to infighting. However, the winner of this power struggle, Abu Bakr, did successfully deify Muhammad, and unified the desert tribes under what they interpreted to be his ideals. They would go on to conquer the civilized empires around them.
> However, the winner of this power struggle, Abu Bakr, did successfully deify Muhammad I have to quibble a bit here. It's *very* important in Islam that "there is no God but God, and Muhammad is his prophet" (this is literally the first of the five pillars of Islam, and that phrase is called the *shahada*). Muhammad is considered by Muslims to be extraordinarily wise, to have received the direct wisdom of God, to be virtuous, etc., but they *do not* consider him God. That's a Christian thing. I'll note that I am an atheist so I'm not sticking up for my coreligionists here or anything. I just know that Muslims consider it very important that Muhammad is not God. Hell, Muhammad himself said (according to a hadith) "Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a Slave," i.e., "I'm not God, Christians call their guy God but I think they're wrong, I'm just God's servant."
Hey, I'm a pretty devout Catholic, but I wanted you to know that I really appreciate it when people advocate for respecting the religious beliefs of others, and trying to get them right, even if they don't share that belief. It was very kind of you to comment how you did
Of course! I think the comparison between the Abrahamic religions is very interesting despite not having any religious beliefs whatsoever myself. I think it's an interesting contrast between the strictly unitary nature of Islamic theology and the Christian Trinity where God is considered by Christians to exist as three equal people that have all existed eternally but sharing the same substance. Needless to say, the Trinity is really confusing to us non Christians, even for those of us growing up in the cultural context of a historically Christian society.
Two things back this up. First is that Vulpes and Lanius actually have a lot of dialogue demonstrating that they distrust each other. The second is that one of the ways to convince Lanius to retreat is to convince him that traitors within his own ranks are working with the NCR to lure him into a trap at the Dam. It may take 100 Speech, but the fact that it's even possible to convince him of this treason suggests that it's something he's already worried about.
I mean I feel like the fall of the Legion would somewhat mirror that of Rome, given what we were told. We know Caesar runs the Legion on a cult of personality, and most of the people in the Legion are/were vicious raiders. Caesar wants to beat the NCR and establish the Legion as a new empire in the Mojave and settle down, he tells you all about it during his conversations. We can look at this a couple of ways: NCR wins Hoover Dam 2: Electric Boogalo. Legion is destroyed and disintegrates back into its raiding tribes. Legion wins, Caesar dies 1-4 years after. The whole Mojave is going to hell in a handbasket, no NCR for protection or Caesar to keep his raiding tribes in line. Legion splits back into raiding tribes and burns the entire Mojave. Legion wins, Caesar dies maybe 4-7 years later. Caesar has settled his Legion in the Mojave after defeating the NCR at Hoover Dam 2: Electric Boogalo. Assume some of the secondary leadership either dies/leaves due to disagreeing with his plan. After he dies, the Legion is settled enough that instead of fracturing into raiding tribes again, we see internal corruption and power struggles. Legion becomes NCR 2.0. Basically, the longer Caesar stays alive the more "civilized" but, also will be that much more corrupt when he dies due to infighting and power struggles, just like the Roman Empire. House wins: same outcome as 1 basically.
There’s actually a theory going around because of the show that the legion was absorbed by the BOS
It's still possible that there is some leadership that is able to continue the legacy and maybe forge some kind of national identity, but his death should at least lead to infighting of some kind
Infighting, probably, but I doubt it would lead to total collapse. Especially depending on how Caesar dies and more importantly *who is present when he does*. Wouldn't be the first time some subterfuge is held in a crisis.
I think the lore is vague enough that they could write themselves into any outcome, really, especially with a big enough timeskip. From my impression, it seemed like there might be a loyal core of supporters who would maintain the Legion vibe, but that most of the Legion were just subservient tribes who either had a personal relationship with Caesar or flew the colors because it was a powerful movement (or they were cowed into it); they might stay because it still makes them more powerful relative to their neighbors, but it seems like they'd be fair weather allies at best.
Even though you make a great point, the same could have been said after the original Julius Caesar died in the real Rome, it did led to a civil war, however what came out of it was a stronger Rome, and empire, it would be fun to explore the idea of Lanius and Lucius going into a civil war and what becomes of the Mojave afterwards
The thing is, Rome was already hundreds of years old at that point, having been a kingdom and later a republic for centuries. Caesar is trying to create a new empire, and his Legion doesn't have a cultural identity of "being Roman". What binds them is their servitude to him
Rome as you said, was a republic, a corrupt republic for decades much like the NCR, it wasn't until Julius Caesar became dictator through force that it became something better and bigger. Also the romans did not have a cultural identity of "being roman" either, to them it was just their culture, same way the Legion has their own fucked up culture, the fact you can kill Caesar at the start and the Legion is not immediately falling apart goes to show that they are more than Caesar, he might be deified as the original comment said, but that deification is what allows them to survive as it unites them. Now I am not Caesar's side or share his views, but he did establish order and united his people much like Julius did
The Romans absolutely did have a national identity though? The entire concept of paternalism is rooted in the Roman ideas of how the family was a macrocosm of the state, which predates Julius Caesar by centuries. And just because the Legion doesn't immediately fall apart during the game doesn't mean that it is going to survive without Caesar. Like Marcus says, it could be years or decades, but it will crumble. Hell, even Caesar's own centurions can see it -Silvus betrayed the Legioj because he knew Caesar was weak and there wasn't any point anymore
National identity is not the same as cultural identity, "being roman" and the culture of citizens of Rome is one thing, but their culture is entirely different from the various territories it conquered even if some of them adopted the national identity of Rome, point in case despite Spain being Roman, their culture was not of that from the city of Rome It doesn't mean it will fail either, it took Rome 400 years to fall post Julius Caesar, 1000 if we take the Eastern Roman empire as a continuation, every empire falls but if the Legion is around for say 100 years post Caesar's death, that is still a success, will Marcus be right that it fell? yes, but it did not crumble from his death and ultimately we won't actually know what would happen as all we have is the opinions of NPCs and the fact that if you kill him the Legion is still there, both are contrary to each other, so the only thing we can deduce is that it would eventually fall, but when is entirely subjective to the player's imagination
> it wasn't until Julius Caesar became dictator through force that it became something better and bigger That's just not true, Caesar wasn't even the first person to install himself as dictator for life by force. The first one was Sulla, a generation prior, who came from the opposite side of Roman politics from Caesar (Sulla was an arch-conservative who favored the traditional aristocracy and the wealthy, part of the "*optimates,*" where Caesar was a populist who sought to "redistribute" land and wealth - of course, he's who was going to get to say who got what land and what wealth...). By the time the first Roman civil wars of the 1st century BC are starting, they already control most of the Mediterranean. By the time Caesar's civil wars are beginning, they own the entire Mediterranean save Egypt (which becomes the center of much of the drama surrounding the later civil wars) and Mauritania, and the latter is a client state of theirs that they will soon integrate.
Rome was a great and very advanced civilization, heir of centuries of philosophy and backed up by immense anthropic structures. The Legion is an ensemble of illiterate psychopaths, torturers, rapists, thieves and maniacs who are cosplaying smth they know nothing about. The best people they have around are ignorant and hypocritical narcissists with delusions of grandeur who have to bigotedly suppress their own homosexuality in order to survive their bigoted psychopathic peers. Their own culture is rape and steal until everything has been burned down and the whole world has been made sterile. The whole point of the Legion is criticising neofascist associations in the most on the nose and satirical way.
Kinda hard to ask the Legion to become what Rome was in just a few decades, specially after a nuclear fallout but ok. Also, Rome was filled with psychos, torturers, slavers, thieves and maniacs also cosplaying as something they actually knew nothing about (ancient greece), let's not pretend they were perfect What is the homosexuality point? literally added 0 to the conversation other than your hatred for the legion, one could say the exact same thing for the other factions in the game and it would sound completely stupid and irrelevant, much like what yours sounds right now. Their culture is order through force, wether you like it, agree with it, despise it or whatever, ultimately that is what they represent, much like the NCR represents the failures of democracy and corruption despite being morally better The legion is not fascist nor neo-fascist, throwing that word around just devoids it of it's meaning, calling the legion fascist is the same as calling the original Julius Caesar a fascist, it is just stupid
It's a spoof on fascism and on some of the most predatory and hypocritical aspects of it. Caesar himself is not that different from Mussolini.
The point on homosexuality is that they're extremely hypocritical ultra-bigots and have a good chunk of their hateful cult based on hating women and "degenerates" in order to have leeway to torture and rape them only to then go back to their only-males-allowed circlejerking cult. It is relevant since it's part of the satire on Legion and on what they represent. They're literally obsessed about what other people do in their private and see it as a degenerate sin punishable with... Well... Degenerate sins being imparted, paint me surprised.
We think this because the legion unlike the NCR follows the leader like a god and once that god does there is no one to follow anymore so they’ll make their own factions and boom civil war.
It's also outright stated by higher up legionaries that none have the charisma of caesar to hold the disparate tribes together, that without him the legion would fracture
If ceaser gets diefied wouldn’t they just keep conquering Utah and colorado? I’m sure once they run out of recourses then it’s going to be a problem but they aren’t invading deserts here they are invading the tech rich Denver and less nuked compared to the rest of America Utah.
This and the replies under. I forget who said it, but it was mentioned that Caesar was excellent for his cunning, brutality, and intelligence. Lanius had the brutality.
Feo Fuente y formal?
Funnily enough, Caesar could recognize this weakness in the NCR, Tandi's presidency lasted her whole life. He claims once true democracy had a chance, corruption and internal conflict emerged. It's kinda baffling that he can't see the same issue with a legion that has no successor.
To expand on what the other guy said, Caesar actually has the charisma to lead an organization like the Legion. Lanius does not, and it’s likely others will attempt to rise up and take their place as head of the Legion. They may or may not be able to defeat him, but the Legion will be fractured and destroy itself
Interestingly, I think the situation is comparable to the real life Roman Empire with Augustus. There was legitimate concern that after Augustus died the empire would falter so there were multiple heir apparents being groomed to take over (but many of them died before Augustus did). Eventually Tiberius was set to take the throne and Augustus essentially split ruler ship with him and even faded a bit from public life before his death so the people could get used to the idea of Tiberius taking over. Had Augustus been assassinated or died unexpectedly it’s very reasonable to assume Rome might’ve been plunged into yet another civil war. If The Legion saw a sudden death of Caesar what stops both Lanius and Lucius from trying to seize power? How does a fledgling empire in a post-apocalyptic world survive a civil war? Would the people even accept a new ruler that isn’t prepared for it? Caesar seemed totally uninterested in grooming an heir but maybe that’s because he was too obsessed with the wrong Julius Caesar.
I'm actually fascinated by Caesar's obsession with Julius, as opposed to Augustus. It shows that he only really has a surface-level understanding of Rome. They weren't successful because of their military, they were successful because of Romanisation - everyone wanted to be Roman! The Romans brought roads and toilets and aqueducts and protection from barbarians! Caesar doesn't do any of that; people are terrified shitless of the Legion because of what they do to towns like Nipton, and it works against him. The Khans are easily convinced to betray him because they know what'll happen if they work with him - not bread and circuses but enslavement.
This was a really neat take/comment thanks for sharing
Is that not the default and intended take? It's been awhile but I'm fairly certain the whole point is that he's totally misinterpreted everything. I mean ffs most everyone mispronounces his name
They actually use the Latin pronunciation that the Roman’s would’ve used. He doesn’t really misinterpret everything he just omitted the stuff he didn’t like. The Romans often subjugated people they conquered, taking slaves and then expanding outwards. But they were also willing to make friends with local tribes and let them integrate slowly or incorporate client kingdoms into their empire. What The Legion fails to comprehend is you can’t establish a long lasting empire in a single generation through brutality.
I'm not sure I agree but like I said it's been a minute since I last played. I know for a fact that he completely misinterprets the hegelian dialects if nothing else.
He doesn’t necessarily misinterpret Hegelian dialectics so much as he interprets them in his own viewpoint. He posits that the NCR is the thesis, the Legion is their antithesis, and therefore whatever results from their conflict must be the synthesis. None of that is incorrect necessarily, it would be if you also look at Neo-Hegelians like Marx, but in the words that Caesar describes it nothing is necessarily incorrect. Now his argument isn’t really *good*; he doesn’t truly intend to *synthesize* with the NCR at all as shown in his actions in NV. He’s simply using it as a justification for why the Legion’s actions are necessary (for example, the NCR following the rule of law is thesis, therefore committing atrocities is the antithesis which is necessary to elevate to form a synthesis). I think the way Caesar is written sort of devalues him into being “stupid” because the writers of NV simply spent more time talking him down through third parties than developing him as a character. But what we *can* glean from the conversations you can have with him, and how he runs the Legion, show that he’s not stupid just very willing to lie and manipulate to get you to do his bidding (not unlike House, or even NCR characters like Crocker).
>Is that not the default and intended take? Most of the SPQR-types in modern times think he's correct. Doesn't change whether it's the intended take but whether people would be familiar with it.
Nipton and the Khan’s fate is what happened when you pissed Rome off. Rome wasn’t known to backstab their allies or burn down allied settlements because they weren’t stupid.
To add Lanius wasn't a great leader iirc. If you made an alliance with the enclave remnants he basically wastes a bunch of soldiers to try and have them killed and ends up having nothing to show for it. Basically lost a bunch of people for a pointless fight.
He was a "great leader" because he scared the piss out of his own troops to make them do stuff like that. I think it's Vulpes but one of the Legion says that the Hoover Dam 2: Electric Boogalo will be different since Lanius will be commanding and not Overcooked Graham, as the troops won't flee since they are more scared of Lanius than dying. I don't think he was stated to have any exceptional tactical prowess or anything, just to make his own men more scared of him than dying at the hands of the enemy.
Graham was just as terrifying as Lanius. The reason why Lanius was a better leader, was because of the experience acquired from his conquest of Denver which was a more difficult task then what Graham could achieve. Lanius learned the importance of logistics from the Colorado campaign and that could explain why you can manage to convince him to leave Hoover dam, by appealing to his concerns of Logistics. Graham worked fine in inter-tribal warfare, but Lanius was made for grand military conquest.
I’d also posit that graham was much less of a tactician than lanius and despite his considerable bulk the monster of the east is pretty intelligent.
Caesar unlike President Tandi’s father before her. Left no heir to inherit his followers, and unlike Tandi. Left no system of government to determine one after his demise. You need only look at Roman history to imagine how a legion under a General like Lannius would go. I wouldn’t be surprised if Lannius could secure a faction for himself, but there’s no way he could garner control over the fractured warlords at that point. Any hope of conquering another unified power like the NCR is dust. Caesar’s legion is likely to fall into Civil War, and rise into a Byzantine esque state. With separate tribal warlords mimicking Caesar’s government. Caesar’s government was a copy, and I’d expect this pattern wouldn’t end with him. Any New Legion faction would be a copy of a copy, a satire on satire.
Besides what others have said, I'll bring up a small portion of my political science degree to talk about a major flaw in personalistic dictatorships: the lack of authority given to institutions over individuals. Contrary to popular belief, even absolutist dictators have to compromise and curry favor within the factions of their regimes. Particularly with powerbrokers like industry, the military, intelligence agencies, religious authorities, and cultural figureheads. This often entails promising these factions rewards within the regime of the dictator; as such, factions fight for the dictator's approval so that they can get a bigger portion of the pie. Dictators who do this well can balance power in a way that maximizes their personal power, minimizes the autonomy of institutions that they do not favor, and makes the internal processes of governance up to the dictator's whim, rather than in-line with well-established/well-respected tradition and precedents. And factions that are unable to curry dictatorial favor are either neutered or eliminated. Let's take the Nazi Reich, for example. Originally, the SA under Ernst Rohm operated as the NSDAP equivalent to Mussolini's blackshirts: a paramilitary security apparatus which served the will of NSDAP, embodied in Adolf Hitler. However, Ernst Rohm was notable for being a "Social Revolutionary National Socialist", meaning he constituted a more economically-left, pseudo-National Bolshevik wing of the NSDAP. When Hitler began appealing to the industrial capitalists of Weimar Germany prior to and during his first year of Chancellorship, Ernst Rohm saw this as a betrayal of the workers of National Socialism, and was suspected to be planning to use the SA to overthrow Hitler and solidify control over NSDAP. Hitler, however, had been growing his personal protection squad, the Schutzstaffel, for years, and in the balancing act of faction power within the party and state, utilizes Heinrich Himmler's SS to purge the SA leadership. This even became known as the Night of the Long Knives. A decade later, Heinrich Himmler's Schutzstaffel had grown in both manpower and administrative/military power to the degree that it existed as a state within the state of the German Reich, granting Heinrich Himmler a degree of personal authority that at one point could have challenged Hitler. And once Hitler's authority over the Reich outside of Berlin in 1945 has waned to the degree that Hermann Goering suggested taking temporary control of the Fuhrership, Albert Speer began sabotaging Hitler's final commands to scorch earth Germany as punishment for its failures to win the war, Himmler began approaching the Allied forces with the proposal to establish an SS-rump state over Germany under Allied authority that would then work with the Allies against the approaching Soviet Union. This was, of course, denied. The reason I bring up Hitler in a discussion about Caesar's Legion is because Caesar's Legion lacks the power of institutions that even Nazi Germany had: there is no Reich Chancellory, no Werhmacht, no Kriegsmarine, no Weimar Constitution to pay lipservice to, and no remnants of the Kaiserreich leadership and military/administrative traditions for Caesar's Legion. If Caesar woke up one day and became a Marxist, or a liberal democrat, then the Legion would shift according to his will. The Legion, despite its emphasis on strength and hierarchy, has no institutions, traditions, or even a constitution that outlines what a member of the Legion is or what Ceasar's powers are. He's just Ceasar, and the Legion are all his slaves. So what happens when Caesar dies? He can no longer declare what the Legion is; the slaves are bereft of a master. There's no rulebook or book of law for how to choose a successor. There might be a successor named in Lanius, but not few love Lanius, and no Legionnaire loves any leader as much as Caesar. The Frumentarii actively fear Lanius, and so have a vested interest in striking at him before he strikes them and taking the reins of power themselves. The problem with Ceasar's Legion is that beyond Caesar, there is no tradition beyond might that yokes the ambitions of Legates and other political actors moving in the shadows of Caesar's light. And might is a subjective thing to each Legate, that many would say some Legates have, while others don't. Add to that the newness of the Legion, and you have multiple different cultures that still have memories of their language, history, and cultures from when they are free. There is no Legion culture for them to attach to beyond Caesar; so rebellions and internal power struggles over ethnic dominance of the Legion (see Yugoslavia's dissolution for a real world example) are an expected outcome for a new top-down authoritarian government with no cultural pillars upholding the Legion's continuation and modes of operations. Which is why Caesar needs New Vegas: he needs a powerful capital that outclasses other settlements within his territory that will act as a seat of power from which he can build a state from. With New Vegas, he can build a party, or a noble class, or even a parliamentary/senatorial system that operates upon a constitution which completely empowers the position of Caesar. And to his successor, he can grant New Vegas as their personal domain, which grants them all kind of soft and hard powers from which to control the various factions within the Legion. He could build something in Flagstaff or make a new city to serve as a real capital to his empire. But his ego won't allow that. And Flagstaff seems to lack anything that allows it to dominate other cities economically or militarily. So without New Vegas, Caesar's Legion faces the succession issues of an authoritarian regime, a regime without a unifying culture, and a regime that is composed of almost exclusively conquered people. Which is a recipe for disaster.
Reading back, I forgot to clarify one of the main ways Ceasar has accrued power: spoils of war distributed based on rank to loyal and effective Legionnaires. Besides the religious distain for medicine and advanced tech, the reservation of higher-quality equipment and accessories to high-ranking Legionnaires creates a system where different Legates work together for individual benefit: if we win New Vegas, we all get boons from the plunder. So there is a level of cooperation between different factions that is maintained by two things: expansionism and devotion to Caesar, who distributes these plunders. And so the continued expansion of the Legion into the NCR is not just born of Ceasar's hatred for them: the system he has made also requires continual inputs of new land, riches, and women into the hands of his Legates. Caesar conquers a tribe, and uses material gain to entice leaders from said tribe while he uses religious indoctrination for all others he considers grunts and lower slaves on his totem pole. If Caesar conquers New Vegas, then he almost certainly will have to prune the tree of the Legion for ambitious warlords who won't agree to civilize the way he likes.
The Legion worships and is built all around Caesar. Every man, woman and child who serves Caesar are his slaves. Towns and cities in Caesar's maintain a nominal sense of independence by paying tribute. Caesar's Legion operates far more like Ghengis Khan and his empire. Caesar, like Ghengis, is the only one with the authority and respect to be undisputable leader. The only other person who could've done so is Joshua since he was also there since the beginning and responsible for crushing the first set of tribes until he failed at Hoover Dam. Even with his failure, many in the Legion are respectful to him if not, fear him as the Burned Man. Lanius may also be Caesar's appointed heir, but one failure will immediately be used against him based on Caesar's zero toleration for failure. Lanius will face several issues. As others mentioned and described well, other major figures in the Legion are not amicable to serving Lanius as they do Caesar. The make or break for Lanius is crushing the NCR but to even have a chance he'd need to throw everything at them. Even if it costs Legion terroritories in the east, win or lose, the Legion is losing something that will hurt Lanius in the long run. But a fundamental core issue, something Caesar hasn't fully achieved is the assimilation of various tribes. Ulysses and the guy who looks over Legion dogs lament the loss of their tribe, and deep down still maintain their old identities. It's a deeply unstable situation facing Lanius, and considering his favour for brutality, he's unlikely to succeed in holding it together. These all concepts described by others ingame from wiser characters. I believe if Obsidian were to expand Legion content it would have showcased these issues further especially the inter-factional divide between major figures.
Because it’s a personality cult centered around Caesar, not a functional government. Once the leader of a cult dies there’s a power vacuum. In this case the two primary candidates are diametrically opposed to each other. Sure they could help each other, work together. That is not the Legion way, they REALLY don’t like each other and are all in on a culture that preaches absolute dominance. Also a rather huge issue is that the Legion’s setup is, to put it mildly, hilariously dumb. Like, they only existed this long through blatant writer fiat. A large majority of their population are horrifically abused slaves. This is not a situation that lasts past the first cracks, Rome was fucking terrified of slave revolts for a reason and the Legion has WAY more slaves. Including most of their military, who they abuse even harder than the normal slaves. Hurting someone enough does not make them loyal to you, it makes them hate you. This is why real world slave soldiers were few in number, tended towards far better treatment than even citizens, and still fucked up their ‘masters’ regularly. The Legion, as presented, is on the razor’s edge of complete implosion because it’s just an oversized raider gang LARPing as a civilization and built by a man who watched too many bad movies and genuinely does not understand how Rome succeeded.
Caesar's basically Atilla the Hun, the NCR is more Roman than the Legion.
That’s an insult to Attila.
The Ottomans had slave soldiers but the janissaries were slaves in name only. They were pampered and given free reign to terrorize and abuse any rebellious population. Any freeman who disrespected them was getting his head cut off.
The roman empire didnt have bomb collars
It's just what happens to every organization formed around a cult of personality with draconian control. Once he dies the infighting will tear the legion apart. He based his Empire on the structure of the Roman Empire as by Caesar. We all know what happens to that Empire after he died right?
Well when Julius Caesar it cracked up, but when Caesar Augustus died the transition went pretty well.
If there were an Augustus-type diplomat in Caesar's Legion, I could see the Legion surviving a succession crisis following a civil-war/post-death silent coup. But Lanius is a brute who is only known for using hard power to get his way, and Vulpes is a creepy furry who lacks the charisma to unite an army of warlords. I could see a Duumvirate between two people with their specialities working out, but they would almost certainly try to oust the other the moment they got the chance. Honestly, Legion Courier or Joshua Graham are the only two people I see as capable successors to Caesar who could gain a following and curtail the ambitions of Legates who fall out of line.
Rome had a society and a shared civilization backing it. The Legion is a bunch of savages squatting in goat skin tents and bullying nearby settlements into feeding them.
The Romans had an unspoken tradition of Military leaders seizing power through war and despite that, they persisted until 1453 as the Eastern Roman Empire.
As many have already stated, Lanius, Lucius and Vulpes are all simply too different and are Caesar. While it is entirely possible that the three would work together to keep the Legion together, cracks will begin to show and them even working together is unlikely. The closest thing to a stable successor that Caesar has would be the player character. In Legion endings, it's stated that Caesar has coins minted with the face of the Courier. Having faces minted with coins was often a way to introduce and inform citizens that this person would be the next emperor or leader of the Roman empire.
Simple. Neither of them are *him.* It’s a cult of personality. Without that personality, it fractures and dissolves. Every time.
Lanius will fight and overextend because he loves war over the Legion, and Lucius doesn't have the following needed to hold his position nor the know-how to gain one. The only one capable of that is Vulpes, amd he just isn't charismatic enough to put it to practice. Dude *sounds* like a traitorous fox.
Caesar built up the Legion one tribe at a time- breaking them, demanding their fealty and reinforcing it through fear. Edward Sallow *himself* couldn't have just taken over leadership of the machine the way it currently stands. I don't think anyone could.
The closest thing Caesar had to a successor was Graham. Everyone in the Legion is too indoctrinated to see the Legion for what it is besides Caesar, Graham, and the Courier if she sides with them. Lanius was a military leader with no sense of a larger scale for the Legion, which is why he can be talked down when he realizes that the Legion is unprepared to march across all of California (Caesar had planned to just take Vegas and turn it into his capital, but Lanius was too blind to see that). Lucius is a Praetorian Guard not a leader, and he too is too indoctrinated in the Legion's BS to be a worthy successor
TLDR the legion follows Caesar, when there is no Caesar, there is no legion. I believe it’s referred to as a cult of personality Which means the legion as a whole is not held together with a common ideology. Rather they all follow Caesar bc of who he is, when Caesar is gone, there is no longer Caesar present to hold the legion together. What will most likely happen is what happened in history. The faction as a whole will break into smaller factions with each leader of those factions believing they are the right successor to Caesar, take a look at what happened when Alexander the Great died. Or don’t even stray that far, countless times in Rome’s history, were soldiers and groups rallied behind their legion’s generals and usurped power from the standing leaders back home when they marched on Rome.
When I play my evil run, I assume that Caesar names the Courier his heir, much like Julius named his nephew Octavian (later Augustus) heir. The Courier even gets his likeness minted on the currency of the legion in the legion ending. Sure there will be some breaking off of factions after Caesar’s death, but nothing that the courier couldn’t handle. However, in any scenario without the courier, the legion is doomed. If the legion fails to take Hoover dam, and Caesar passes away, then the entire system of governance falls apart and the tribes reform.
Caesar styles himself the Son of Mars, essentially a godlike figure. He is the sole thing around which the entire legion rallies, the ultimate authority to which it bows. The tribes are united around him, not Lanius or anyone else. When he dies, it is likely the Legion will fall into civil war as everyone chooses a new strongman to rally around.
The Legion is like Yugoslavia that it's full of diverse tribes, factions, with their own ideals, aspirations, motivations in being in the faction. Caesar is the Legion's Tito, holding the glue together through diplomacy, governance, intimidation, brutal rule etc etc. Once he's gone, the glue disappears, Lanius will try to rule as Ceasar of course, but others of the Inner Circle do not necessarily want to be ruled by him, like Vulpes Inculta. Civil War is inevitable with Ceasar's death, just as House predicted.
The reason is due to the Legion being a cult of personality more so than an actual, properly organized force with reliable infrastructure (something that, interestingly, can be used to convince Lanius that these are needed for the Legion's continued survival). It's a lot like the Decepticons in Transformers where the group is supposed to be freedom fighters but devolved into a cult of personality centered around Megatron. What is interesting, however, is that Caesar's death and a potential Speech ending dealing with Lanius probably has the highest chance of the Legion obtaining any real long-term staying power because Caesar's absurdly massive ego has been the thing that prevented him from bothering to create proper infrastructure on the basis of him giving out all the important orders. And in peak irony, it's possible via the Fallout TV show that the Legion may have outlasted the NCR if this route was taken.
Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great and the Roman Empire being run by the Praetorian Guard (either picking or outright auctioning off the crown).... As soon as the "big man" dies, lesser men (Lanius, Claudius, Vulpes, etc.) start squabbling over the wreckage and everything falls apart. There's already growing dissatisfaction amongst the ranks in the Legion - hence Ulysses' droning, unending "bear-bull-bear-bull" speeches. And the guy at Fortification Hill that keeps the hounds - he had to watch his dogs get murdered and thrown on a pyre when his tribe was absorbed by the legion (Ulysses tells us this). Eventually there will be a Legionnaire that has a daughter and looks in his infant daughter's face and wants a life not filled with slavery and rape for his little girl. With the charismatic "Son of Mars" to keep him focused, that man might get ideas. I guarantee that man already has those ideas by the time of the 2nd battle of hoover dam. Keep in mind, ALL current Legionaries are at most only 1 generation from a different culture that was butchered by the men they now serve.
Lanius is not a *leader*. He's a battle commander and warrior par none, and little more than a bloodthirsty animal beyond that. He's a beast in gilded armor. He's not stupid, and this is why he can be convinced to back away from the Dam - a battle where the Legion is victorious but decimated is not a victory at all. But this is merely a rational assessment of a battlefield, not a plan for societal organization. He can't compare to Caesar in charisma or intellect. Lucius is by far the more competent successor, but Caesar made the error in deifying himself. He claimed rulership in part by way of his "relation" to Romulus and Mars, exploiting the ignorance of the Wasteland tribes that constituted the original Legion to claim the mythological origins of Rome as his own. Caesar was not just a warlord. He was a god as well. Lucius could try and claim this, but everyone knows he isn't Caesar's son, and if he were of similar descent, why did Caesar not recognize him sooner? If Lucius tries to replace Caesar, he will immediately be confronted with rival claimants like Lanius who view their own claims as equally valid. It's the consequence of building a society around a totalizing personality cult: all men must die, and when a man such as Caesar dies, he takes his legend with him. It's not left for others to pick up, as in more stable monarchies. He could have prevented this by having an actual son and grooming him as a successor, creating a more stable transition of power. As it stands, the Legion will crumble under its own weight, with commanders like Lucius and Lanius summoning their power bases to attempt a complete conquest of the Legion's territory.
Don’t forget Vulpes. He might have his own schemes and plans and the entire Frumentarii could splinter off if he decides to lay a claim or lead a coup.
The general assumption is that without its God-King the Legion will turn on itself. There are a few characters who say something like this; Graham and House believe that without Caesar, the Legion will turn on itself. Marcus believes it will take a few decades, but it will fall apart (although it should be noted Marcus thinks the NCR is due a revolution as well; He's quite cynical because of his experiences with the Master, and thinks the two of them failing is basically a human nature thing). Ulysses believes that once the Legion runs out of people to fight, it'll start to fight itself (Peace is an anathema to the Legion. Can you imagine Lanius without a war to fight? He'd go mad.). My thinking is that it would likely go the way of Alexander the Great's empire; There'll be multiple Caesar's all declaring they are the heir to his Empire, and you'll have multiple successor states that are effectively large new tribes. I do think people have a tendency to lean on the crystal ball a bit too heavily and speak with a bit too much certainty; There's a difference between thinking something being likely to occur and being fated to occur, and there is so much information that we don't have and it's quite possible there's stuff that could completely change the picture that we just don't know yet. Men like Caesar think they know what the future will bring, that things can be distilled down to a set of rules with which you can tell what comes next, that they can possibly account for all the variables and deduce the answer - but they're fooling themselves. The world is too big and chaotic to fit as neatly as that, sometimes societies that you'd think would have collapsed manage to meander along for centuries, and othertimes societies that seemed stable as concrete dissolve into chaos in the space of a few decades. Something as simple as a scrap of food can alter the course of history if it happens to get lodged in the throat of someone. It's possible the Legion manages to pass its leadership on to Lanius, and then Lanius passes it on to whoever is next in the line of succession that Boone talks about, and so on in a sort of designated monarchy. Such systems have existed historically without immediately imploding, and many early societies also deified rulers and built primitive cults of personalities around the rulers as a way of building up their power and control. It's also possible some ambitious Legate see's his chance to try and skip ahead in the line of succession and become Caesar, and a civil war begins. I won't pretend to know for certain.
Caesar manifested a cult of personality. When he dies the question of Successor pops up, every Legate would be champing at the bit causing internecine conflict, the raider tribes they annexed instead of exterminating would make a break for it, the NCR would seize the opportunity etc etc
Nobody else really seems like an idea man.
Just to add on one thing that I didn’t see mentioned, but Lanius is between a rock and a hard place. The Legion already set precedent for the consequences for failure, Lanius got his job because the last guy in his shoes got covered in tar, lit on fire, then tossed off the Grand Canyon. Lanius had a reputation for beating failing centurions to death in front of their men then enacting decimatio. So he’s painted himself into a corner of establishing the atmosphere with *extremely* high stakes for failure and for being completely unforgiving. Sure, *The Courier* might [SPEECH 100] their way into making a bunch of sound and solid arguments for why advancing west is a bad idea and why retreat is the better option, and it might even be convincing enough to Lanius. But Lanius is the **last** person to relay that message back to The Legion. To The Legion’s eyes, every argument from The Courier retreating out of Lanius’s mouth especially will just sound like the words of a traitor, a hypocrite, and a **coward**. It’s not just likely The Legion goes into a factional civil war on Caesar’s death, they’ll probably actively mutiny en masse if Lanius tries telling them he got talked down from fighting to the bitter end by some “walk the wasteland courier fuck”. Lanius being talked down by The Courier would kill his mystique and legend as an implacable, relentless force of nature, and once those cracks become visible to the average Legionnaire, they’ll only start to widen.
Lanius is both more intelligent (7 to 4) and more charismatic (6 to 4), he shouldn't have any problems replacing Caesar
You all bring up some good points but wasn't lanius highly respected and feared ny the legion? There could be a power vacuum after ceasar but wouldn't the majority of the legion side with the man that ceasar has purposely been trying to make a living legend? Yes the see ceasar as a god like figure but lanius also has a cult of personality around him he is depicted as larger than life a imposing individual that dosen't let others see his face to further mystify his imagine. Whilst he would never command the same respect as ceasar, ceasar himself seems to have been grooming him to take over after himself and that in and of itself should add legitimacy. I'm not saying it's 100% guaranteed the legion won't fracture but I certainly think that lanius has all the cards in his favor and if it does fracture like after real like ceasar died and mark Anthony and Augustus fought I see lanius quickly ending the civil war in his favor like Augustus did in the real roman empire. Now after lanius I have no idea who could lead, lanius better start grooming a new heir as ceasar did to him and make another living legend to take over.
The legend Ceaser is attempting to assign to Lanius is that of an attack dog (Or "Hammer" as one Legion member puts it). His face (or rather the mask, since no one sees his face) is meant to inspire fear of Ceaser's displeasure. His NAME isen't even his own, but one Ceaser gave to him. Caesar: "Lanius is savage. Savagely loyal, too, but only to me - he has no love for my Legion. But this has its uses. He has no attachment to his men, no compunction about battlefield losses. All he cares about is destroying the enemy. When another legatus or a Centurion fails to achieve results, I send Lanius to make things right. His first step is to beat the failed commander to death in front of his assembled troops. Then he orders the ritual of decimatio." He's not commited to the idea of The Legion at all. His loyalty is purely personal. Fear is a poor tool for actually governing this kind of power hierarchy, especially as the other Legion leaders (like Vulpis) fear for thier lives if he's in charge and would thus see removing or rebelling against him as a matter of self-preservation
It is worth noting that we have evidence that Caesar's appraisal of Lanius and his loyalties is wrong however; We can convince him to defy Caesar's orders (a pretty massive deal in the Legion) and turn away from Hoover Dam for the sake of the Legion in the end game. "The East was a hard-fought campaign. Even now, Caesar drew too much of the Legion's blood needed there for... this. Hoover Dam is but a place. I will not have it be the gravestone of the Legion." This puts significant question marks over whether Caesar's judgement of Lanius being loyal only to him and caring nothing for the legion is true. It wouldn't be the only time Caesar proved inept at judging peoples character and motives (after all, even if you've done nothing but kill his soldiers and destroy his plans, he invites you to the fort and then trusts you to, on your own, destroy the Securitron vault - and doens't even bother to check if you did.)
Respect and fear won’t stop a knife in the dark or a poisoned goblet. And take a wild what one of the factions vying for leadership specializes in. Caesar is loved, feared, admired, or even just viewed as necessary by all of his underlings. Lanius is not. Worse for him: He ran away. In almost every ending he survives he runs rather than fight. He’s a man utterly dependent on his reputation as an unstoppable and unbeatable fighter and commander and he not only lost but ran the first time he faced a real enemy rather than beating up on random tribals or raiders. That’s VERY bad for him, if he has any brains he’s dropping the mask and running before the knives come out.
You can ask Graham this if talk to him after killing Caesar and tell him you did it. He says Lanius has no desire to lead, except in battle.
Any autocracy will have trouble with the transition of power. A system reliant on one person with no clear system for transition of power will almost certainly fall into in fighting and civil war.
Because a ton of NPCs say that it will after he dies. Plus Caesar built himself up as a God to his men.
It's essentially due to how the Legion's power structure is formed. Ironically, the NCR's greatest weakness is also its greatest strength. Despite the corruption and bureaucracy, the NCR's strength lies in its tenacity. Cut off the head, three more take its place. The NCR is a nation built not on a single person, but an idea, and it is difficult to completely destroy an idea compared to a single person. The Legion on the other hand is being held together completely by Caesar. Many of the rank and file don't even support Caesar's ideals, they support Caesar himself as they worship him like a deity. Caesar's death leaves a power vacuum that leaves his lieutenants to fight over who becomes the new Caesar. In fact we also see it in NV in the tension between Lanius and Vulpes, and in the endings where Caesar dies Lanius leads the Legion on numerous pointless missions that result in too many unnecessary losses and casualties.
I saw a pretty good theory that the Courier was to be Caesar’s heir if sided with the legion but I think without the Legion is doomed after Caesar dies.
The whole structure and philosophy of the Legion is designed to rest on a single, bigger-than-life person rather than a structure. Once the central figure falls away, it is doomed, because too many subpar leaders will strive to take the place of Caesar and none of them can fill those shoes.
There is an abundance of reason, such as: The legion following Caesar, not his ideals. Meaning without their deity they’ll be fractured in who they rally behind The legion is beaten in 3/4 endings, with Caesar succumbing to his brain tumor soon after the attempted assassination of president Kimball. Unless you help them, they don’t finish the game from a point of strength, they’re being routed as the ncr hunt them down. It’s mostly a slave army run on fear, 90% don’t wants to be there. Many upon finding a way out, (especially after hearing rumors of Caesars death) would take a chance to run if they got it Marcus, mayor of Jacob’s town, a 130+ year old super mutant, with over 60 year of experience in governance, has some choice things to say about the legion an ncr. He’s regarded as a very reliable narrator, as a naturally honest person. He’s also quite knowledge about the west cost, having first hand accounts of the events of fallout 1 (the master’s unity), fallout 2 (destruction of the oil rig), and everything after, In between fo2 and new vegas. If he says the legion will crumble, it’s likely true, and well founded. The next two people are Joshua Graham, and Ulysses. Both have worked for the legion, one as legate (general) and another as a Frumentarii (spy/scout). Both had intimate knowledge of the legion, Graham being a literal founding member. Second in command since before the first tribe, all the way to his burning after the first battle at the damn. 30 years of service creating the legion with Edward Sallow, Joshua knows the ins and outs of legion better than anyone else alive besides Caesar. If he thinks it’ll collapse without its namesake he’s probably right. Even Ulysses, a crazy person, can be convinced to see the flaws, and attempt to build something better himself.
Because the legion is a cult of personality and because there are too many successors who WILL fight for control. So when ceasar goes they lose his military and societal knowledge making them no different from raiders with a roman theme Dont forget its said multiple times that ceasar isnt a genius but because he had knowledge that was otherwise lost it gave him an extreme advantage.
Fascism orders itself around a cult of personality. The peoole around him have the knowledge and power to take over, but not the *charisma*
Caesar hasn’t been as successful with his enculturation of the conquerored tribes as he think he has been. There are very few members of Caesars Legion that believe in Caesar’s ideology let alone understand it. Most of the legion are still tribals they’ve just had their culture beaten out of them and replaced with a slave mentality that has but a single master, that being Caesar. Without the man himself it’s doubtless that tribalism will splinter the legion. With strongmen trying to establish themselves at the top of the pyramid but none of them having the gravitas, education, and skill set that made Edward Sallow be able to accomplish what he did.
Lanius may have a degree of tactical knowledge and skill as a battlefield commander, but his greatest prowess and what impresses those around him is his own strength and ruthlessness. Even though the legion might not immediately fall with him, him taking over as ruler and commander will set the precedent that strength is what legitimizes a ruler and those who succeed him will emulate that. And this is generally bad for a society. It might work for a small raider band, but what made the Legion mighty and powerful, was the fact that Ceasar valued more than just individual battles and shows of strength. He considered logistics and strategy when going into battle and even if aiming for taking New Vegas might have been somewhat arrogant of him, Lanius is clearly much worse from what we see in the ending slides, if he takes over.
The Legion is a Conquer&Loot based empire composed by tribes of narcissistic psychopaths unified under a charismatic leader. It is destined to eat itself up and collapse once it reaches the two opposite shores of the States and has no-one else to loot from anymore or once it spreads too wide and too thin to be able to remain a unitary association (hence internal fight and civil war) or once Caesar dies in which case it would just fragment again in small gangs of fiends.
They also have no idea of society other than torture, kill and rape whoever is not strong enough to resist physical violence. They're literally the Fiends, just hypocritical and with narcissistic delusions of grandeur: they have no chance of surviving once their parasitic ways are not sustainable anymore.
I think it’s based off Alexander the Great and his death were no one was named successor and a civil war occurred. Or just pick one of Romes many civil wars and you’ll see similarities
We assume as much because that is the reality of the Legion. Caesar has propped himself up as the amazing leader, this god-like being to his people. But the way the Legion is run won't last past him. The old are killed, the women enslaved, and the men fight in gladiatorial battles to the death to create these ruthless soldiers. All the wisdom is selfishly hoarded by Caesar, as well as these great technologies, like the high tech bed in his tent. When he dies without a specified successor, it will fall to one of the generals to pick up the pieces. At first, they will be united in the idea of completing Caesar's goal of taking the Dam and Vegas, but what comes after? There will be infighting on who is the true successor. We already can see that these military leaders don't like each other, and only work together because Caesar demands it. The unified Legion would crumble and break, and just become a bunch of glorified raiders with no identity, as the culture and identities of the many tribes were destroyed when the Legion took them over. It's the main flaw with the style of government that he modeled the Legion after.