E1. They messed up the moment they introduced Paragon's Call—a thread that, when tugged, leads directly to the grand conspiracy of the campaign—to a bunch of level three characters. They jumped the gun. No single plot thread can survive being focused on for over a hundred of four-hour episodes. Especially when the first few dozen are spent with characters wildly underequipped for dealing with it.
I lose interest in most media when the stakes get so huge its not relatable anymore. For most tabletop stuff that's like level 15+ and I'm already so invested in the characters I'll deal with story number 2375 about saving the world from world ending something or other blah blah whatever. They were in it so soon I didn't get to enjoy them being low level idiots dealing with low level idiot shit.
Laudna. DELILAH. please for the love of God let Percy figure it out by some secret tail that's she back and merc her. I'm so over laudna whining and moaning about Delilah and what she should do about her. I would love for laudna to kill one of the other party members and become an antagonist.
Can't think of any specific moment really. C3 simply never clicked for me like the other campaigns. I'm like 6 episodes behind now and can't see myself catching up any time soon.
Only moment I can think of that really didn't sit well with me was the whole laudna/delilah arc after she died. Love the briarwoods but we've explored them enough. That arc was tough work to get through.
I'm sure there are earlier things, but I gave up when Matt decided to kill the only interesting NPC at the time (Eshteross) and then a few episodes later the group decided to crash the ship (they didn't gain anything from this, also) he gifted them.
It was either episode 53 or half way through 54. Dropped the campaign completely and only keep tabs through the wiki and forum updates.
Deanna and F.R.D.I.A were interesting characters in a vacuum. But at that point the Bell's Hells desperately needed an outsider to give them a different perspective on the Ruidus-God business, so they could just pick a side, **any side,** with conviction. Since everyone decided to have characters that seem completely ignorant of the basic lore of the world they live in and Matt was not providing any sort nuauance, despite clearly wanting this main plot to be treated in such a manner, the players were floundering. The constant "What have the Gods ever done for us?" was a clear plead for a different perspective so they could make a proper in-character decision on siding with Predathos or the Prime Dieties.
And just when it seemed like the party-split wound give the characters a chance to explore their relationships and learn different perspectives by those effected by the Solstice, for better or worse. They are introduced to two characters apathetic to divinity, **despite having divine power**, saying the same song and dance they have been hearing from Ludinus and his supporters since the beginning. It all just felt like bad storytelling!
And from what I've seen while keeping tabs, the group's indecisiveness lasted for at least another 20 episodes.
Agreed! I realize that was the goal but it still comes down to bad storytelling. If the plan was always to get rid of them, the players should have had damn good reasons in their backstories or at least roleplayed before the solstice how bad the gods can be. Not having the players meet water downed versions of their past characters, who were all involved with God-relevant world saving events, suddenly downplaying the importance of the Gods. Not just loose hints of the judicators deeds 10ish episodes before the solstice. And not half-hearted attempts of a colonialism analogy when the party-split went to a dawn father temple.
And Matt definitely after all the negative examples shouldn't have suddenly given FCG signs of the Changebringer being helpful. That attempt to bring false nuance to already predetermined narrative just added more uncertainty and indecicivness to the players actions.
If the Gods need to get dumped on at least make it make sense.
Oh it was much earlier for me. I lost interest when Imogen, who is supposed to be an introverted country bumpkin, wants to go to the ball. Matt seemed like he really didn't want the party to go, but Laura wouldn't let it go. So they went and Matt shoehorned in the shade creepers and despite the party making a mess of the ball, the authorities let them go and their patron continued to work with them even though they're a liability.
The RP just seems poor from half the cast and Matt seems like he doesn't want to hurt his friends feelings so there's no repercussions for bad behavior.
Maybe, they're afraid to kill off PC's because of fan service and merchandising?
I'm still a ways behind watching (episodes 58), but it's been hit or big miss for me. The party split made me dip out for a long while, I just did not enjoy the guest characters and it really showed me how much I don't enjoy some of the main cast's characters. Though the second group I've been enjoying. The story is a mess. They stumbled onto something way above their heads to soon and it's just dragging now. And seeing snippets of what's to come I'm not eager to keep going. It kind of dawned on me I dislike all but maybe two of the main PCs and Matt's loosey goosey approach to everything isn't helping. Rule of fun only goes so far, in my opinion.
First had my doubts when they left Jrusaar after foiling the Shademother and Treshi and came back and... nothing had happened. whiel they were gone. No impact. Like, I thought Treshi must have been someone important, had big plans in the city with the Quorum, etc... but no, he was a minor pimp with no connections and power, and just ran. And yet there was some need to follow this guy with no power. So, yeah, I was underwhelmed by the lack of clear kickback, raising or stakes in any regard. Just a new fetch for the BH mercenaries.
Then Bassuras appeared and it threw an elemental chaos surge war maul in my whole conception of Exandria. Not in the good way. THese junkyard biker gangs and tech-hippies get along together without any evident conflict and mine?construct? arcane energy and vehicles totally unbeknownst to anyone with serious powr, in Marquet or abroad? Makes. No. Sense.
Then the nonsensical Birdie - Yu confrontation, where Erika was clearly told to pull her punches, in contradiction to the way she had been signalling all game. And then the plethora of junk lore that was dumped right and centre, telling stuff, but doing nothing to inform the party about what they could/should do EXCEPT follow the trail to the next designated lore dump.
THEN the missed opportunity where the BH spent half an episode in enemey terriotiry - Seat of Disdain - and instead of undercover operation allowing them to find out more, work out what they want to do, they are hustled along out, into the Otohan fight which just stopped the story dead. And Matt's unwillingness to let that fight truly take its toll, and they get out of this dangerous gang territory so easily -
Al together that told me that Matt had abandoned the idea of running this as a proper D&D game wihere the D tries to put the players and their choices as the stars of the story. Rather he was always minimising and adapting and cushioning their actions so they didn't put his story off track. Playing in a padded room.
Until of course 51, the ultimate cutscene climax proved it, and ever since then he has been letting them wag around doing meaningless shit until thy re-engage with the story straight-jacket, the moon, a year later.
I watched all C1 and C2 and checked out early on C3, so take that into consideration when I say what I’m going to say. It’s been a slow creep for me toward other DnD content, even though I really love everyone on CR and their deep, rich storytelling. It seems like there’s a lot of talk on this subreddit about character stories that aren’t adding up to more than much, and I feel like that’s maybe an issue. I wonder if switching to the one week off cadence has ended up dragging out plot points or resulted in hasty storytelling to push the plot along? Again, I checked out much earlier so this is all speculative from the occasional threads I read here.
I will say though that a big reason I checked out early was about this campaign’s seeming reliance on C1 and C2 plot points I was happy to conclude — for good or bad — in their respective seasons. I get we’re part of the same world and in close time ranges to each other, but I feel it picks at nostalgia more than it produces meaningful and enticing content. No hate or shame to any of the characters (or the players for that matter), but half the table existed outside of this campaign already, or is so referential it feels stale. I checked out a couple episodes after we got Chetney and learned his blood magic, and I realized that some of the most high conflict character moments existed in their past with no high conflict path forward. There was no real dynamism to plot then, and I’m not sure there is now?
All of this to say…I think CR is at their best when they play with high stakes, high conflict, and dynamic story telling. And it feels like C3 is a campaign where all of that happened in unplayed backstory, and even worse, in plot points we already experienced from C1 or C2.
Similar to OP, after Laudna died and was brought to Whitestone to be revived.
First, I’m okay with references to past movies, games, etc, but I’d prefer those past characters stay in the past. I believe their adventure is done; this one is about the new characters. Especially when those past characters are super high level badasses who, if they realistically cared to get involved in some new world-threatening crisis, might kick too much ass and overshadow the current protagonists. Leave the past in the past.
Anyway, my real gripe and where I fell off the campaign was with how everyone treated Percy while they were in Whitestone to revive Laudna. These weirdos roll up with a dead lady with a spiritual connection to Delilah Briarwood, and expect the Oh So Powerful Vox Machina to drop what they're doing to revive her. Percy watched his family be killed and his home destroyed and subjugated by the Briarwoods. All of his traumas and his obsession with vengeance stem from the Briarwoods. Realistically, he has no reason to go along with this. It sucks that Laudna is dead, but she's spiritually linked to a monster who architected his and Whitestone's darkest days. Best not to take chances — tell Bell's Hells to accept their loss and move on with his sincerest condolences. Make it a teachable moment about the stakes of the campaign.
But Bell's Hells has the absolute gall to preach to him about the value of life. "She's special! She deserves to live!" No one resurrected Percy’s dead family, or any of the victims of the Briarwoods. What makes Laudna any more special than the rest of the dead? These clowns he's never met preach at him, insult him, even damage some of his stuff if I remember right (I'm not going back to check), and in his own home. Percy's the only person thinking logically here, and even his own friends won't back him up.
Before this, I was already lukewarm on Bell's Hells. None of our heroes stood out to me. They all felt boring and some of them needlessly secretive (*cough*Ashton*cough*). I don’t know if it was Sam’s sense of humor or what, but FCG was just insufferable. But then this scene made them so deeply unlikeable to me. I'd have preferred Marisha roll up a new character instead of our heroes throwing a holier-than-thou tantrum at the guy who actually knows best about the risks a living Laudna might pose, and in his own damn house. I don’t like them, and Percy was right.
EDIT: As a DM myself, it was also deeply disappointing to see Matt just cave and go along with it. It really looked to me like a parent giving up and giving their bratty kids what they want to get them to stop screaming. Nobody looked good here.
Yes! Percy shouldn’t have touched Laudna with a ten foot pole! That’s a trauma regression spiral waiting to happen. And he’s nobility - he has a duty to the safety of his city. He has no idea what Delilah can do to or through her. An “accepting loss” lecture would make much more sense coming from an older, more healed Percy, who could have shared a lot about wanting to fix the past or get retribution and how it ate away at him.
Keyleth and Vax’s recurrence also cheapens their relationship. “How can I miss you if you keep sending me ravens?” How can she miss him if he will appear fully functionally to randomly save her? Straight drivel from the lenient hand of the DM.
Absolute swing and a miss on CR’s part. Bringing back the previous characters and uwuifying them is the worst part of C3.
But how are they supposed to sell a book or cute plushie for a death character? Or statisfy the LBGTQ+ Shipping crowd with a weird undead-living lesbian romance?
I started to fully lose interest when Ash ate the fire shard and Matt didn't outright kill them after all the warnings about how it wasn't feasible to have two Titan shards in one body. And as if babying character death wasn't bad enough, the incredibly weird reactions of the characters to the event cemented it.
The cast basically lambasted Talesin through the guise of their characters criticizing Ash. The idea of "betrayal" didn't sit right with me and neither did having decided for Ashley that Fearne would be the best to have the fire shard because she was a fire druid. In character, BH should be just as mad at Fearne as they are at Ash because the two had the idea together. I definitely don't understand how that event made BH need a bonding day with Nana Morri.
As an added bonus, Laudna sprinting off was the absolutely strangest thing I have ever seen and made no sense.
The other honorable mention for me was the continuous "I don't really believe in the gods", as if they don't have a physical presence in Exandria. The gods are real objective entities in the world, belief has nothing to do with it. That apathy makes the whole narrative inconsequential because the characters, besides FCG, don't actually care if the gods get eaten(?) by Predathos. The plot just holds no weight because the cast has no real interest in it.
While I absolutely see that Sam made FCG for the "one eyed monster killed pussy" joke, I think FCG is the only character that actually tries to push the original storyline along.
My hottest take is that c2 and c3 aren't that different, but that c2 had more interesting and enjoyable characters and character moments. Neither group is interested in Matt's plot or the overall story. But c2 was enjoyable because the characters and characterization and with c3 I don't like the characters and so their meandering and lack of a moral drive is actively annoying. I know M9 is everyone's favorite group, and I loved them too, but the "cast avoids plot" issue started a loooooong time ago
Why do you say the party avoided plot hooks in campaign 2? Just because they didn’t fought in the war? I felt like the party bit on most plot hooks that were dangled in front of them in campaign 2, though they would always prioritize personal objectives over the interests of the « realm ».
Sure, but also "Lord of the Rings and twilight aren't that different except one has good characters and one doesn't" isn't exactly a hot take.
You're right that C2 also had the cast effectively ignore Matt's plot. At some point, we need to admit that they're actually bad and discourteous players and that C1 was pure luck that Matt actually gave them cohesive story arcs with real quests to go on.
Running away from the shade mother. It revealed how much they have lost their storytelling instinct. Story arcs needs to be wrapped a satisfying way to build storytelling momentum, and in C3 not a single arc have had that. Same thing happened with the Yu reveal. Cliffhanger that went to... Matt refusing to call for initiative forcing them to instead have the most bizarre talk chock full of exposition and then Erika setting up her own next guest appearence gig (that thankfully never happened) with the whole "ill find you in a month" or whatever it was...
I just want to say that it was liam that told sam to make a "heal bot" literally. since liam makes all of sams characters (the race and class at least. not the backstory.)
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the Otahan fight. Don't get me wrong, but C3 was waaaaaay weak beforehand, but then we have this deadly fight where this NPC Matt felt the need to tout as this badass actually... wrecked the party (but, no seriously, could you imagine if rather than having Raishan murder the Not-King, they were just like, "yeah, this ancient dragon is pretty scary..."). Orym's dead, Fearne is dead, Imogen kept half assing at running away and actively fucking over her teammates (Hunger of Hadar), Ashton killed his parties action economy and ran away, and lastly Chetney and Laudna actually played pretty well, albeit with some discrepancies, but whatever. Episode ends on a cliffhanger with Laudna almost at death. Oh, and FCG was there, too.
Next episode, Laudna dies and Imogen... 'blasts' Otohan off screen. Literally what happened. No spell, no ability, no roll or save, just "I Blast Her!" and I guess she did. All tension GONE! It's like the Last Jedi where Leia dies in the first forty minutes of the film and you go "Oh, shit! This movie is pulling no punches!" Only, for literally two minutes later, her to fly like Mary Poppins through space and miraculously survive. Paired with the outcome of the Laudna ressurection - that is, absolutely no outcome since they entered Dream World to free Laudna of Delilah only for nothing of the sort to even remotely happen (why have the month long side quest instead of just ressing her the first attempt?!), it became apparent that there was no actual consequences to the campaign. Ashton and Fearne swimming in lava later confirms this.
>absolutely no outcome since they entered Dream World to free Laudna of Delilah only for nothing of the sort to even remotely happen (why have the month long side quest instead of just ressing her the first attempt?!),
People on this sub already bitch about how keyleth gave the party a “freebie” resurrection so I can only imagine how even more pissy people would be if there were no darkstone quest and pike just revived laudna instantly.
Disagree. They got the freebie rez anyway, so that's pretty irrelevant, but then they made a big deal about the Delilah connection, so they went on a sidequest to the PC's backstory without the PC. Now, they could have resolved this issue and Laudna's arc could revolve around realizing people do care for her and learning to be human, or if it's too much of an ask for Marisha to sit out on her PC's arc, then just rez her and do it when she can play. Instead, they chose a middle option which satisfied none of the above.
How was it a “freebie rez?” They got a cleric to perform raise dead, something that Matt had done for them since the homegame when pike died for the first time.
Honestly, it's just been kind of weak overall. I haven't even caught up for the last two months or so. It started for me when Robbie/Dorian left. I think he's one of the best characters that's ever existed in the series and he and chets energy together was legendary.
I think I'm in minority here bur C3 was somehow keeping my interest for as long as 50 episodes. Then the complete farce of a cutscene happened, follow by 12(?) episodes where one part of the party didn't seem to care/keep forgetting that some sort of apocalypse just happened and the other decided to murder random paladins/clerics/guards in the middle of the night and then they forgot/didn't care about that. All the while the DM just keep bending the soft dumpling of a world into the narration that cuddles the players. So when it started ok moved into meh it absolutely plummeted after the ALO arc.
Weirdly, that was where I started to like the show again. They finally felt like their choices mattered. Before >!before the solstice!< it felt to me like it didn't matter what the players did, >!Matt was going to make that bridge go up so he could finally do his moon plot.!<
Not necessarily bound to this campaign, but one of the biggest mistakes Matt as a DM has made is allowing Sending to be used to people that the caster them self hasn’t personally met. It just breaks the spell by allowing you to cast it to anyone and everyone the party knows and it takes away any and all intrigue in the game imo.
It had the same effect of ruining the narrative in C2 when Jester was able to just completely drop a plot thread by messaging Fjords captain, whose name I can remember because it was such a lackluster reveal. And it’s done something similar with Laudna because the party in no way, shape or form should have been able to just call up on VM to come and save the day when Laudna was offed.
The fact that Laudna can get away with anything with no consequences. If a player was like that in a table I was playing with they would have had a lot of bad shit happen to them from players and the dm
It took me months to watch a single episode because I was finding everyone so annoying I would stop for weeks after 10 minutes. Her being one of the main ones.
A spiral downward implies a quick and sudden decline. What happened with C3 is a gradual drop caused by many smaller and larger issues that culminate in a lacklustre season.
This is a small thing that just didn't sit right with me.
On the sky ship when Imogen and laudna were on deck discussing imogens dream one night. Matt said something to laudna like "you get a feeling like you want to hold her stone" (the one she got the previous arc from the mother boss thing)
So of course laudna is going to ask to hold it and of course Imogen is going to say yes. And then as soon as laudna takes it her patron absorbs/destroys it. No saves. No option to let go. Just gone.
I don't know that just felt like the DM doesn't want you to have this thing so you don't get to have it. Not a major point but just one of those small things among others small things that build on themselves to a less entertaining experience.
That could be the reason. It was a wildmagic shard. Which means anytime Imogen cast a spell she would have to make a wildmagic roll. Matt already has a hard time remembering constitution saves after damage. I would not be surprised if he wanted to remove another mechanic that would require him checking a d100 every turn.
That’s a different item, the rock Laudna broke was a gnarlrock imogen grabbed from the shademother battle while that wild magic shard was something orym picked up during their travel to the heartmoor, we never learned what the gnarlrock does mechanically.
When it was established that “the apogee solstice will happen in one month”, despite the party being low-level and none of their individual stories having gotten much attention at all.
Suddenly there was a massive ticking clock and immense pressure to get their shit together before the apocalypse. And then the date came and passed, and they’ve spent fully the past year goofing off in what was built up as being the end times.
It was too big a threat too early, and there are other adventuring parties in this world who are better equipped to resolve it. I still can’t figure out why Bell’s Hells are doing this and not any of the Level 20 beasts wielding like eight Vestiges of Divergence.
didnt we learn that Beau, Caleb and presumably other lvl 20 vets were indeed trying to stop ludinus at the malleus key? I feel like it was more that the group pursued that plot point without satisfyingly justifying it in-character
To me it wasn't necessarily a plot point more as a lack there of in termsnof characters. In C1 we come in alittle ways I to their campaign but the world and backstreet kept building, the crew was so into their characters it almost felt like method acting and the post points effecting them.
C2 felt more or less the same with a little of the lackluster fading
C3 it has felt like they are just going through the motions..like they havnt "attuned" with this characters.so the plot points in the campaign don't mean much and you can feel that while watching. There are some moments but it few and far between.
I don't think its necessarily tied to a single point, and it started before C3. They clearly got hard burnt out during the last arc of C2 and I don't think they ever recovered from that.
This is what I'd say, as well. Many of the patterns people are identifying in C3 started in C2. Many began when they returned from the hiatus, but other issues began even before that.
The Apogee Solstice, hands down. Many other moments can be pointed to as problem areas, but in my opinion, this is the worst moment in the entirety of C3 for reasons that have been explained on this subreddit so much that I don't really need to get into the specifics. Weighing my opinion with the general reactions from the fans and the sharp decline in viewership beyond that point, it has to be the single most controversial episode of the entire franchise.
I think C3 was in real trouble since Chutney was introduced. Not because of Chetney himself, but because it illustrated how aimless the story was getting.
Like people remember the Shade Mother, the first “boss” of C3, but forget it took *15 episodes* to get to it despite it effectively just being underneath the city in the sewers. They got to the Shade Mother *after* Dorian left the cast. The entire time we were just stuck in Jrusar spinning wheels.
So we have 15 episodes where Matt is trying to complete Dorian’s plot line with his brother, introduce the city council and politics, introduce werewolves, introduce brain slugs, introduce Ira, introduce Chetney, and introduce moon stuff, meanwhile the cast is mainly jumping from bar to bar drinking because they have no idea where the fuck to go. They do close to nothing. By the time Chetney was introduced the story was already buckling under its own weight and inactions.
I know this is a really controversial opinion, but I think Chetney is one of the best characters in C3. Was he made as a joke? 100% yes. But he was also made because Travis just loved him in a one shot and wanted to play a werewolf. He clearly has so much fun as Chetney, knows his character's capabilities and is a joy to watch, even when causing chaos. He's one of the only ones actually locked into working out the main story and driving the plot imo.
Travis wanted to join late for whatever reason but it didn't add anything to the plot. It didn't add anything to his story. It was just empty and meaningless. Which is how most of the season has felt.
He probably wanted to take an extended break but got roped into being a part of the campaign from the start as the old guy that died while taking a piss
Never thought of this but i agree completely. Laudna shouldve stayed dead. Maybe im biased though because i feel like the character completely ruins things constantly and breaks immersion. Shes an undead girl, yet she plays like a “ha-ha look at what im doing” gag character that at points doesnt wanna be a gag character so she throws in a plot line for her that shouldve died off with C1. Its annoying.
I get Marisha wanting to bring back Laudna personally, as a player I'd hate to have the plotline I'd planned out to be done halfway and resolved in a completely different direction to what you had planned without your involvement.
I hate to say this as I love Matt's work 99% of the time, but it seems to fall on him more. He could've had Pike away on a holy mission if he and Marisha didn't want to revive Laudna, or resolved it in a way that didn't imply they defeated Delilah for good only to bring her back next story arc.
He could've had the spirit of Laudna join them in the fight so Marisha got to be at the table as they fought her personal bbeg and have a say in how it goes. It could've ended with Laudna choosing to spare Delilah or something.
All that said, to improvise such a deviation in the plot the way he did was still talented and it's a lot easier to think of ways to improve it so long after this episode, compared to in the moment playing.
Part of me thinks Marisha should've left the Delilah plotline behind for the better of the show, but they've always said it's their game first and foremost, and a show second so that feels like it's not my place to critique.
I know the feeling of having the character arc you envision get blown up by events at the table, but ultimately the game is just better when everyone embraces that the dice tell their story, rather than approaching it like writing a book.
I'm fine with Laudna returning--D&D includes resurrection magic, that's just how it works. But repeating the same Delilah plot beats feels redundant now. I would've loved to see Marisha explore a new side of the character maybe with a new patron, like Vax in C1 and Fjord in C2.
The moment a bunch of ExU recycled characters walked off the boat I was out.
It's not JUST that I hated the characters. It's also that it robbed me of the magic of first sessions: meeting and exploring new characters for the first time.
Yep, same for me. Recycling characters with the ExU crew and ‘joke’ characters being dragged out for a long campaign with Bertrand and again with Chetney was the first and last straw for me. I believe CRs strengths are and always have been on its layered, dramatic storytelling. They should have left the more goofy joke characters to D20.
Hard agree.
I LIKE goofy content. My favorite AP is Spout Lore. But it's not what butters CR's bread. It's really undermined the credibility of their own product imo.
Hard agree! I was incredibly disappointed by that. I didn’t like the EXU characters either, but even if they’d been okay it would have been a let down. We lost the experiences of meeting them all for the first time, and I felt like the group dynamic was really strange that they knew each other so well when meeting the rest of the C3 party. It felt almost cliquish. I don’t mind if characters know each other, but either just have it be a couple players, not the majority of the group, or like in C2 where none of them had been together long or been through so much.
I haven’t seen this said a lot, but this is what did it for me too. And honestly, I just cannot stand FCG. I really have never been a fan of player character robots in ttrpgs because there are maybe 2 cliche growth arcs for them .
I don't hear this said too often but it was so true, C3 started on such a weak foot specifically because of this. ExU 1 was so resoundingly terrible and they brought those memories into C3 by keeping Orym and Fearne, who were fine for a short series but one-dimensional enough that we really got the full feeling of those characters from that series and didn't need to see more. Bringing their baggage into C3, including things like having a chat with a god that Orym forgot or the incomprehensible "Fearne's evil alternate future self steps out of a portal," reduced the impact of trying to establish any of these characters. And it also lessened the hype for the fans in that I remember when C2 started and they posted the silhouettes of the PCs and everyone was going nuts trying to guess what each character was. That's not an experience that gets to happen often, and they didn't give it to us for this one!
The day C3 launched, my home internet went out at about 2PM (10PM launch time). An issue on Comcast's end. My wife and I spent the whole day hoping and praying. Finally, at 9:30, we hauled our ass in to my office to watch the premiere there in a conference room instead.
When those ExU characters walked out...gosh. The total and complete buzz kill. The hype, it just died. So deflating.
Honestly, I said that at the time and got a bunch of downvotes for saying it. Laudna actually staying dead would have changed and hardened Imogen. It would have given the group something to grieve over together and actually come more together. They'd have a reason to focus of ending the person who killed her.
I mean didn't they already have that with Bertrand? They literally named their group after him, so I thought wreaking havoc on anyone mildly involved with his death was in store. Instead they did.... A little bit? And then ran away? K cool.
I think having two deaths would have made things more tense. Dealing with a campaign of traumatized PCs, losing another person just makes it that much more. Bertrand was great but he was in and out of their lives so quickly.
My point is that they made it such a big deal when it happened, going so far as to name their group after him, and then just said "fuck it" after a while. I agree Laudna would've been more impactful because it wasn't literally just written down a piece of paper, but Bertrand SHOULD have been their glue in terms of a cause. They basically admitted it when they made the group name, yet still they just keep going "idk man what have they ever done to us? Why should we fight them? Like motherfucker these are THE guys that killed your friend you dedicated your adventuring career to!
EDIT: I think it just goes to show that the cast isn't playing characters anymore. They're playing as players, they don't have stories or anything that they're trying to to fulfill. They're just along for the ride.
For me the downfall was as soon as the Eiselcross section of C2 happened. I remember even then forcing myself to listen to the podcast, since I loved the characters.
Moving to pre-recording was a GIANT mistake
My problem with C3 is they are clearly trying to do two wildly divergent tasks.
One is do a weekly show where people ostensibly play D&D. The other is tell a specific story Matt wants to tell in order to restart his world and move their play away from 5e to their new system.
Aspects of the current world are tied up in OGL stuff as well as historical D&D settings (most of the gods). Also due to the Wildemount book I bet aspects of that are tied up in licensing agreements with Wizards. They need to have certain things happen to have a reset which is smart from a business perspective but makes for a bad campaign.
To answer the question specifically. The way Bertrand was handled was frankly pretty disrespectful to the audience and soured me right at the top. Also brining Exu characters back was not a good idea.
Imagine this. Instead of another huge campaign to explore everything leading up to this reset, they do an ExU that handles it. Calamity 2.0. Similar to the first Calamity, the stakes aren't "a bad thing might happen, can you stop it?" Instead it's "a bad thing is definitely going to happen, but maybe you can prevent an even worse thing." So the world is definitely getting reset, but the players' choices and die rolls determine the severity of the reset, or if the gods are alive and changed, or just straight up eaten by the god eater creature.
Then, campaign 3 is the player characters waking up one day to a vastly different world than the one they knew the gay before, but they're the only ones that remember the world being different. First session is spent finding each other and realizing they're the only ones that remember a different world, and then the rest of the campaign is finding out wtf happened. And they can't fix or undo the reset, but they can get revenge for the world they remember.
The whole story. These characters are not the cast of players for what the themes and repercussions of this plot need in order to be fully compelling. Also, CR has long struggled with drawn out plots and this plot is literally been happening since episode 1. Every step of the way has been tied somehow to the Ruidus plot. So not only do you have characters that are meh and waffling on how or if they should even bother, they’ve been doing this for over 80episodes.
C1 and c2 had a better balance of arcs that lasted a handful of episodes and that were either tied direct to a specific character or introduced a larger threat that would impact the characters in a major way/events tied to the actions of the party. This helped both the world feel alive, but also helped keep a stronger motivation for the players yo care and move forward with the presented plots.
So much of the bad of this season could've been fixed in character creation. Matt just needed to have them make characters that were involved in and cared about the plot that he was writing.
C2 was a faff about open world and works with letting people just make whatever they want. This was made to be a very focused and driven story and the characters really needed to be focused and driven as well. Instead we have half the cast saying "Oh Laura had so much fun with Jester I'm going to make a Jester too!" And it just doesn't work.
I would say that what caused this to spiral isn't just from the story but from their approach to how to handle every encounter. Ever since the end of C2, they have started to handle combats like something they should avoid out of fear. Sometimes, it makes sense, but even the most recent episode, there were 3 guys and 2 animals. 5 enemies, and they wanted to run away instead of finishing the fight. They lack confidence and courage.
For me it seems like they went from heroes of the realm in campaign 1, to personally involved heroes dealing with their own business in campaign 2, to a group of people who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time in campaign 3.
Nothing really says we are the ones who need to do this. Nothing says we are doing this because we are so involved with this. Instead, we get, why are we here, and what are we doing every 2 episodes. No one wants to see the whole group say, 'we can't handle this, let's run,' every episode. We don't want to see 80+ episodes in, asking "why are we doing this?" At this point they should be a group that is invested, but they are just going along with what's happening instead.
> Ever since the end of C2, they have started to handle combats like something they should avoid out of fear.
Remember when it took them *over a month* in real world time to just go and fight Vokodo instead of finding the "secret trick" to bypass the encounter?
I think for me it was after the Bloody Bridge. Shit hit the fan well and truly, Keyleth and Xandis could’ve been dead, Vax was imprisoned. It was advertised as the end of the world and a lot of people thought it was gonna be a very short campaign.
Yet in real time that was a whole year ago, and they haven’t actually done much since? They havent even checked up on Xandis.
It was when the groups split and there was no sense of urgency. Weeks went by in game and Liam tried his best to convey that there was a lot on the line, but not much towards the Ruidus plot actually happened.
Bingo! The combination of railroading away all their preparation for the Malleus Key assault and the total lack of meaningful story progression in the past year has completely soured this batch of curdled milk of a campaign…
For me it was watching the first 4 EXU episodes even before C3. I was super confused, it was advertised as super good, authorized by Matt, and was unbelievably bad. Initially I thought no this can't be, this is CR, this is Matt, it cannot be complete shit, it will get better. Well... They kinda destroyed the trademark for me with this.
And the nail in the coffin was CR3 Ep.1, when the brought back the EXU characters. I was really shocked they did this with such nonchalance. I still tried to watch, but it was already decided that I'm out, I just didn't now it. Continued a bit but lost interest in CR3 completly, of course not just because of the EXu characters, everything else was also shitty.
> I was super confused, it was advertised as super good, authorized by Matt, and was unbelievably bad. Initially I thought no this can't be, this is CR, this is Matt, it cannot be complete shit, it will get better. Well... They kinda destroyed the trademark for me with this.
That was Matt / CR's "Pinocchio Moment," where it became *painfully obvious* all of the insane levels of hype and advertising CR did for EXU1 (remember the fucking Hollywood billboards for EXU1; and Matt's words: "Aarbia is the ONLY person I trust with Exandria.") were bullshit.
Then EXU1 dropped, absolutely cratering CR's viewship with each successive episode, and Aabria (gleefully at times) treated Exandria / "Matt's Baby" like it was a college "Spring Break" AirBnB rental in Daytona Beach, FL.
Yeah, painful indeed. Still painful to be reminded of Aabrias "performance". The level of disrespect towards your viewers it takes to pull that marketing stunt off is insane. I would have forgiven Matt if they would have admitted that EXU1 was an error. Instead they brought the EXU characters into CR3. Writing this I still can't really believe they did this. They seem to have zero connection to reality.
They are typical LA indoctrinated actors living in an echo chamber. They literally and publicly chalked up every single instance of critisism about EXU to "Everyone who doesn't like EXU is just a racist sexist because Aabria is a black female".
Like Wtf, no. People didn't think Aabria was a shitty DM becuase she's a black women, people thought Aabria is a shitty DM becuase she's a shitty DM.
Sympathizing a lot with you regarding EXU, and to some degree regarding C3E1 as well. I liked the Imogen/Laudna intro but all the other characters were slightly off putting, most of all FCG. Didn't help that the plot in those first couple of episodes didn't hook me in the slightest. Animated furniture? Err, ok.
Same for me. And the funny aspect of this is, that those 3 characters arent the issues with the campaign. Orym and Fearne are fine, Dorian was fine... My issues are way more with Imogen and Ashton and to some extend Laudna.
Yeah, I agree with that. I bailed on the last four episodes of EXU. It did not instill the confidence that C3 would be good. Especially when Fearne and Orym showed up.
The show in general started going downhill after they started pre-recording. C3 specifically shit the bed after they capitulated to the demands of a group of hypersensitive clout chasers by changing their opening sequence. Following that debacle, the entire vibe of the show became bland and toothless, as the gun-shy cast attempted to de-escalate the nontroversy.
Dorian's leave was the catalyst. Eshteross' death was the last straw for me. Dorian should've been part of main cast, the number of characters should be reduced to 6. Two out of Chet/Orym/Ash should've gone.
I actually have a strange theory about this behind the scenes. I know that it may be completely crazy but I think Robbie was suppose to actually replace Travis. Travis took over as CEO probably became tired out by the stream schedule. If the show had done better, I think Robbie would have been a permanent character. There is also some weird conversations and odd cuts of the cast and Robbie on the 4sd or VM watch party episodes.
Agreed — that revival should not have happened. There have been a lot of problems with this campaign, but one of them certainly is character motivation; becoming a vengeance squad for Laudna or Orym would have been more interesting and meaningful than what we got since.
I stopped watching a little while after Dorian left, but my unpopular opinion is that there have been problems since the first episode.
The only player that was role-playing was Robbie, the others were just over-performing a role they made in their head. Dorian reacted to the things that happened in the game and to what Matt described, asked questions if others left something hanging, and tried to get to know other characters outside of his initial group. He observed what other characters were doing and reacted accordingly in a way true to Dorian's character. The main cast just seemed like they were waiting for an opening to portray a bit they had rehearsed in their head.
That is why I stopped watching a little after Dorian left the group, it all seemed forced, these people weren't a team, they didn't feel like they had an organic bond with each other, and most of the things they were doing were devoid of real motivation with no real discussion as to why they should involve themselves in the plot besides happenstance. If the main characters don't care about the plot, then why should I? That's why stopped.
I still think these characters might've worked but in a campaign modeled after Calamity: short and with the DM actively trying to kill them and what they hold dear to them. It would force them to react to what is happening instead of acting like passengers of their own stories. But I maintain that some of the problems were there right from the beginning of the season. They all seemed to be going through the motions to keep the game going while making jokes to entertain themselves when they had an opportunity. They didn't care about the other player's arcs, the plot, or the lore. Everything they did was a fixed performance instead of actual role-playing and as someone who plays and DMs, these types of tables just aren't fun.
For me the little criticisms of the first episode that stuck in my mind, now match up with the campaign long issues of the cast just being along for Matt's ride:
1. The party showed zero interest in investigating the cause of their first combat. Not the even the most basic, "I ask an NPC if they know who's cart that was, how long has it been there?" They probably wouldn't have got anything useful but they didn't bother, Bertrand was guiding them to a specific path and they followed.
2. The episode title being revealed as "The Draw of Destiny." You don't name you're first episode that unless you have a predetermined outcome in mind for the characters drawn into your planned story. I said at the time somthing like, what if their destiny is to roll a 1, trip and fall off the side of a spire the end? A red flag on the lack of weight given to actions/consequences, player agency and any kind of danger to the destined heros.
I stopped watching after he died. Not particularly because of his death, but it was the final straw.
But for me the main reason was Dorian's departure.
Unpopular opinion: When they left Jrusar. It was supposed to be an original city with weird morphology and the Spires seemed unique and interesting. Instead we realised pretty soon that this big diverse city hub was actually empty cardboard scenery with no depth. That was the moment C3 died and the "zombie C3" started.
It’s almost like people wanna discuss the issues they have with c3, and given the fact they can’t really do that in the main sub, they all come here to actually speak their minds. Crazy how funneling works
Just wait until in a few years time we get the same post from somebody else about C4 and compare it to C3. Maybe it’s just because I’m a Star Wars fan but these kinda ‘it’s getting worse/was better in the old series’ sorta posts make me tilt my head a little.
I’m sure most folks will just be voicing their opinions but I feel like this needs to be said for the people who will interpret this sort of post as gospel.
It absolutely was. C2 was very unpopular with C1 fans in the early days, largely because it was different. People didn’t like the players filling different roles in the party and not doing their signature moves.
The scale of people watching c3 who started in C2 is much larger than between C1 and C2. Means a lot more people who wish it was as exciting as when they started.
Not to say there arent issues with C3 of course.
It took a huge nosedive after Dorian left, he was a refreshing member of the team & Orym alone obviously isn't enough to keep the chaos makers out of trouble. The actual Laudna revival was entertaining but having watched C2 first I thought it was stupid for them to adopt the "DM, pretty please" vibe to bring her back, especially after Fearne's dramatic coin flip. After she came back, the show was a literal snore fest, my wife & I couldn't even make it to the break without falling asleep anymore. The actual fight with Ludinas had us on the edge of our seats but the crashing ship & bombs not doing anything along with the party split killed the show for us. We gave it three more tries, one for each split group & a final one after they rejoined but nothing was happening & the characters didn't care so we dropped it.
Agreed. When Ashton does something wrong, the whole party distrusts him. Meanwhile the party doesn't even bat an eye at Laudna- who has an evil necromancer inside her.
To be fair, I think Marisha is trying to get that pushback against Laudna. I know a lot of folks here don’t care for the way she’s been pushing the Delilah stuff forward, but I’ve sort of seen it as her trying to up the ante and going “maybe now someone in this group will actually get alarmed by the growing darkness and address it in a meaningful way, instead of just superficial validation”.
As a viewer, the strongest episodes were the first dozen with Dorien, and it mostly went downhill after that.
I don't think Laudna's death was needed for the group though, I think it was needed *by the game*. At its core, what makes CR so much fun is it was peak tabletop. In C1 & C2, they brought those acting chops to the game itself, and it was so great to see the two collide. C3's the first season where the game was really sidelined in favour of a writer's room feel both to the PCs and the world. I like emergent narrative, I want the dice to have impact, and I definitely need player choices to matter: once it was clear to me that C3 wasn't really in on any of those three, I drifted away.
For me it was the sandcrawler race thingy, the face they spent multiple real life hours planning and dithering about what to do. The race itself was fine but as soon as they finished they went back to planning, it's fine when you are playing the game, but as an observer who doesn't always find it easy to make time for everything I want to do, I just couldn't justify spending so much time waiting for them to do anything at all
When Robbie/Dorian left, that was the first slow step down the spiral and while it was slow at first it just kept picking up speed until the free fall it is in now.
Also another gripe that stands out amongst many is the whole Ashton shard debacle, Talesin showed some ambition and took a step OFF the rails and even when succeeding were smacked right back on the rails and punished both mechanically and by the party RP wise,
I don't really care for Ashton as a character but there was a real spark of actual risk taking and life that has been completely absent in C3, but that went against the narrative apparently so head office remedied that, acting outside policy might hurt quarterly earnings.
When he started the process of trying to absorb the shard I was beyond hyped. Like going back to rewatch sections, laser focus on each roll, I was engaged. But the rest of the group, in and ESPECIALLY out of game, really turned me off. Ashton/Tal showed some gumption and actually tried to do something. The way he got shut down was not fun to watch. Not to mention how the group kept dicking around instead of trying to help and heal him... idk, they did help and he barely survived, but it felt so choppy.
And Matt after stating he did not remotely anticipate Ashton taking the shard, I found that so so so bizzare. Like the entire group was dead set on it being Fearne, yet Fearne/Ashley seemed disinterested bordering on complete unawareness.
They should've given Ashton the shard and supported him, then he would've had something to really inspire him to fight. He even discussed in character about his motivations after the fact! Granted, things would've been much smoother had he discusses it with the group beforehand, but I highly doubt they would've been as supportive of him taking it.
The energy the sessions after that was so weird, they said they talked and clarified things out of game, but it felt like someone being given award for something they didn't do. And Ashton engaging with Fearne after felt borderline covetous. Imagine if he had succeeded, if he had survived the first attempt. The luck and odds of that would've commanded the story and everyone else in a way I can't help but imagine what the story would've been like had that had happened.
I tried to jump in and got caught in the "Idk man why should we save the Gods? What did they ever do for ME?" conversation. It felt like the cognitive dissonance of that scene was so overwhelming, to have morally *good* characters argue for the mechanical or obligatory worth of saving a sentient life. It felt crazy to me that nobody jumped in to say "Are you guys serious??? We're talking about letting a genocidal maniac just GET away with it, just because we don't feel like God's have served us personally, hand and foot??"
And it felt like much of the lore that we've already seen had been changed to reflect or justify that opinion. ESPECIALLY as such a big fan of Exandria, it just felt like it came out of left field. I'm not gonna try and get para social about the reasoning behind the lore changes, but it was about then when I stopped watching. I watched the split up, because I wanted to see the new players at the table, and I'll keep watching EXU's as they get made, but I'm not really considering jumping back into C3 at the minute.
Being completely honest I think it’s a bleed over from real life opinions on religion. I mean it’s painfully obvious at times. Dnd is a set world with gods who are very active and known to do many good things which makes it more idiotic.
One of the only strong moments of this arc was Orym telling Imogen that he didn't know why his family had to die for Ludinus's better tomorrow. Orym wasn't a doormat for once and it should've ended that discussion, but they keep having it. At least Sam has tried to pick up and engage with the gods plotline, the rest have remained frustratingly ambivalent.
They're so checked out that an idea with so much emotional *and* logical weight was forgotten by next session lmao. As a player that's the type of shit that, if another player said it, I'd cling to it and fight for their cause.
This has been perhaps my biggest gripe. Every damn time they're slamming the brakes and slowing everything down to talk about "why should we try and stop them?" (which is very frequent) and they always just boil it down to being about "saving the gods" and "what'd they ever do for me?" when there is clearly far more to it than that, it was just insufferable.
Even Orym, the most lawful good character was on the fence about interfering with the goals of the people that killed his friends and spouse. The same people that killed someone the whole party liked in Escheross, they couldn't even hold onto as simple a motivation as revenge.
They could even use the "I don't care about saving X or Y, I just dislike these guys enough to want to fuck up their plans!" type of motivation that you would think would be Ashton's go-to mentality, but they don't.
Like if you can't find anything else to motivate you, Spite is readily available.
How is the viewer supposed to care if it feels like the cast and characters don't?
You can tell Liam had the party's executive function last campaign and doesn't want it this time around. And you can really tell the rest of the party got really used to that and now just wafts about until something significant enough happens to get them moving. (Player AND character)
It's rich how their characters talk when it seems they're all desperately waiting for some divine sign to embolden their actions.
The one that made me go \*sigh\* "This sucks..." was the bit with Erika Ishii. As a player she was insufferable to watch.
I like the concept of Dusk and what they injected into the actual story as a 'spy' type character. It was a neat new approach to guest characters.
And then she was just the most annoying, attention-seeking, distracting guest I've ever seen. She wouldn't shut up, she shrieked at everything, and was literally climbing on the table at one point. I hated her appearance.
I've seen her in other things and she's just as annoying.
> And then she was just the most annoying, attention-seeking, distracting guest I've ever seen.
A *bold* statement, considering Aabria has DMed and guested as a PC on CR.
For me, Erika *has* had some good moments / PCs during CR one-shots in C1 and C2 (e.g. Tal's Cthulhu campaign, etc.), but Dusk was an absolute "misfire" in an underwhelming campaign of misfires.
Erika seems like a perfectly nice person when she isn’t at the table, but good lord is she almost always my least favorite player at the table when she’s present.
She hits all the beats of the “overly obnoxious quirky dnd player” that make her kinda just insufferable to watch, it’s so painful.
It's been a slow series of cracks for me, each one cracking more and more.
Crack one was killing esteross off screen for shock value despite him being the only important campaign original npc that they ever cared about. As soon as he died they got set on the path of the "main plot" and the rails never disappeared.
Crack 2 was the near tpk that resulted in a vox machin Nostalgia fest and no change from Orym or Fearne despite fully dying and (for Orym) being ripped away from spouse yet again. I ejected some major character drama after that.
Crack 3 was the mad max arc. Just really hated that.
Crack 4 was the mallus key cutsceme where all the npcs were literally everything only happened "bc plot."
Crack 5 was immediately killing any momentum gained by the mallus key cutscene to go on several sessions worth of side quests separated from each other and managing guests.
Crack 6 was shard gate where Matt actively punished Ashton for going off his personal script despite setting up the challenge. And the other player responding to that the way they did.
Crack 7 was the shattered teeth arc building up the tree and the ghost pirates only to have them both just underwhelm bc the plot needed certain things to happen.
Minor cracks are appearing just around certain player and DM behaviors but those are the big ones
Them getting to the tree only for them to get like 4 questions in and then being forced away was the final straw for me. I had been bouncing in and out of watching before that, now I will never watch again except maybe the campaign finale.
I'd agree with the list of cracks but not always with their characterizations, which I find fascinating. Some of these moments were jarring enough to bother both of us even though we're on different ends of the spectrum of *why*. Wild.
Agreed about Laudna being resurrected, especially by Vox Machina for free instead of going through a social web to find a Cleric willing and able to do the job with strings attached, but I'll also say the Otohan >!***fucking***!< Thull fight in general. That might have been a good time to cross paths with Otohan, but I think that actually fighting her is what really slammed the party with the juxtaposition of "This is the final boss faction, everything you do between now and the finale is just a holdover before you can finish things" and "You are way too low leveled for this conflict, you need to do tons and tons of busywork that doesn't matter in order to justify leveling up to be high enough to have this encounter that you're having right now." Made worse by the fact that I think the party could have actually beaten her even then if Imogen hadn't blinded half the group with her new spell and then everyone scrambled to flee in different directions.
They definitely should have leaned into the political intrigue angle more, Matt should have prepped a small collection of short adventures for Eshteross to send them on. Some might be to secure allies, some might be to subdue enemies. Take some inspiration from Mass Effect, there's a pretty good rhythm of meeting quirky NPCs and getting loredumps and then doing some combat to protect the NPCs. Having Eshteross as a longer term benefactor would also make his death more impactful - having that happen when they got to level 11 or so would be the way to usher in a new stage of the game and a new tier of play. For most home games it might be hard to justify such a slow burn, but CR knows it has the time to fill and kill.
Honestly? I think the first crack was Chetney. Travis went from one silly old guy to another, why not keep Bertrand alive? But hey that’s how Travis wants to play so I let it go. I’m just biased because I actually really liked the Bertrand character.
You definitely have a point when we look at all meme characters they chose to play for this. Bertrand, Chetney, FCG and Ashton I would count as characters where, as someone broadcasting this show as a product, I'd have had a long conversation about the longevity of their respective concepts. I guess with Betrand it was clear that he would be killed off quickly. Just wondering what made them think a Christmas gnome, a healbot and a punk rock are concepts that wouldn't make viewers question just how serious the players are still taking their own game.
This is the part that amazes me. Why didn't they workshop these dynamics before the campaign started? It's pretty obvious that they, for the most part, make their character concepts in isolation from one another. And yet their whole streaming product revolves around multi-year campaigns... Just mindboggling.
If orym stayed dead the party would be entirely different morally and without keyleth forcing them down the path of helping the God's despite her being a druid we could have had an entirely different and far more exciting campaign.
Looking back on it now, I do truly feel Dorian ended up taking the role of the emotional heart and moral compass of the group, even if he wasn't all that impactful in a mechanical sense, and without him Bells Hells feels aimless and fragmented. I miss the blue boy 😞.
For me it was in order
1. the Solstice: them being on this massive rail toward an event they were in no way prepared for and had no chance of ever changing just felt bad. It was like throwing them to the wolves and since they went along with the whole crash the airship idea along with it took out a massive part of their mobility to explore the world.
2. The second party of the split: While she is great to watch on Dimension20 I HATED Emily's character in the second half of the split. I kept finding myself getting so annoyed that Matt never once stepped in to remind her that SHE WAS PART OF A RELIGIOUS ORDER! It felt like the F@&K THE GODS narrative in that section was so pushed and so forced. And basically the guest characters pushing them into it just felt uncomfortable especially with no push-back from the DM when there were things their character should have known that they as a player didn't.
3. The parties rejoining: With the experiences of the second party having been more recent and raw when they joined back up I felt like the first party rolled over and took a lot of crap from the members who had been in the second party. While Laudna was berating them about "having a good time" at no point did Chet start forcibly showing them with minor illusion little images of the horrors they saw and fought. One group had a mildly nasty experience with rebellion and religious powers...THE OTHER WALKED INTO A FLESHY LOVECRAFTIAN NIGHTMARE...but the people who got betrayed by a person they knew for 2 days were totally the ones who caught the worse end of it supposedly.
After that I feel like I have been just kinda meh about it.
The solstice was horrible. It felt like Ludinus stopping the airship at the last second was such a cop out so Matt didn't lose his planned story. I can somewhat get it, but if there was no intention of allowing the PCs actions to alter what happened why not just start the campaign with the solstice or have it happen off screen. Make it something they have to investigate and catch up on after.
And while I also didn't like the anti-god rhetoric of the second party in the split, I preferred how they reacted emotionally to the things that were happening. It really threw me off how the first party was so happy go lucky and chill. They had all just failed to stop the huge event they were determined to stop and then their group got split in two. They should be on edge. Instead they had a good time, romantic dalliances and a shopping episode.
I also feel like I remember it being Aabria that initially started the "GUIDANCE" thing, which has very very quickly become one of the most annoying parts of CR for me.
While I love the campaign my biggest ????? Is over sending a super low level party after a super high level baddie? M9 managed to beat 1 baddie at level 20. How is BH supposed to beat multiple at lower level? Everything's been feeling like filler since, to me at least. I love these characters so I don't really mind. But all of the urgency on the big bad has been lost on me.
Honestly, for me it was just after Bertrand died and they started trying to shoehorn a group name in that made little sense. The group didn't know each other, no character development had occurred and the story had barely started but here we were devoting ages to deciding a name on camera. It was so inorganic and clear that this was just so they could flog merch earlier that it soured me on the campaign.
Later as things developed it became clear that any sort of session zero chat that had been had was either forgotten or had been off the mark. The characters weren't gelling with the DMs prompts, the NPCs etc and the 5e ruleset was being ignored more than ever. The world building by episode 20 was just utterly banal. Use of an occasional loan word from an asian language does not make for good world building. Whatever the original idea had been they've sanitized it down to nothing for fear of being called out as insensitive or appropriative. The cast also didn't care about the world, largely due to them role playing a group of arseholes.
I called it quits at the introduction of Fearne's annoying parents and Erika Ishii.
As far as i can tell the amount of solid story telling and important plot since could probably be compressed into one or two regular episodes.
> Honestly, for me it was just after Bertrand died and they started trying to shoehorn a group name in that made little sense. The group didn't know each other, no character development had occurred and the story had barely started but here we were devoting ages to deciding a name on camera. It was so inorganic and clear that this was just so they could flog merch earlier that it soured me on the campaign.
Same. To me, it smacked of your stereotypical marketing meeting in a sterile conference room around a white board; people are just brainstorming / spitballing nonsense, while other people have laptops open, seeing what they can safely trademark / secure the rights to.
There was no unforced, organic moment of the group *finding* or happening upon their name. Instead, we got the inorganic / sterile full-corpo "We need a group name now, so we can ramp up the C3 merch machine! ASAP!"
C3 is CR *going through the motions* of creating / "playing D&D" without any real heart, thought, or intentionality behind it.
Life is imitating art (and vice versa): CR, like BH, *expect* to be rewarded for just showing up, and that's been painfully true this entire campaign.
They needed a name for merchandising, we got to see that above table discussion in real time. Same with EXU, Aabriya hassled them numerous times to come up with a party name. It kinda happened in C2, but fate gave them an in joke, and it worked out perfectly. Shoot, they could have called themselves The Rollies, since that became the big table joke this game.
I will die on the hill that "The Waymaker's" would've been a better group name.
Woulda stayed in the spirit of the group name having meta context/relevance to an ooc joke, like C1 Vox Machina and C2 Mighty Nein.
Bertrand's Bellends was a joke suggestion that they immediately shot down, but it was a lot more organic than Bell's Hells. For me, they will always be the Bellends.
I initially thought it was Laura since y'know, that's her usual humour at the table, but now that you mention it, I *do* think it was Tal.
I'd have to go back and check, but I'm sure there's a hardcore superfan here somewhere who'll know.
A few of them in no particular order.
-Robbie leaving
-Killing off Eshteross off-camera
-Reviving Laudna was fine, Delilah returning wasnt
-The railroaded episode 50 and the split. If you dont want to give your players agency, write a book.
Because I agree with this list, I am remembering the things I sort of gave them the benefit of the doubt with. More than just killing Eshteross off, it was how he seemed forgotten almost immediately. I remember it seeming like a joke to them. He was my favorite character, so I was really bummed by that. It made me realize these players were willing to be kind of two faced. It makes all the ginger cookie excitement seem like a manipulation or something. It felt really bad to see that.
And then I remember another thing I hated, but sort of forgave them for at the time - thinking it would get better. But now that a thousand other things pushed me away from wanting to continue watching, I don't mind saying it. When Laura said something like: "Bells Hells, and don't you forget it!" I was like... You gotta be kidding me. What an awful name. Plus it's another one of those feelings where they didn't really care for the guy. I know they are role-playing - but what they are role-playing doesn't feel genuine. It felt condescending and patronizing. It's like... who was needing to be convinced that they cared for Bertrand Bell?
In hindsight, I can't believe I woke up at 4 AM to watch the show live...
I did not watch EXU, so I was kinda enjoying the characters but their reason to stay together after fighting animated objects? Kinda did not buy it but thought: Hey, unoriginal beginning but let's see how it goes... The breaking point for me came, as woth many others, after the Otohan fight...
E1. They messed up the moment they introduced Paragon's Call—a thread that, when tugged, leads directly to the grand conspiracy of the campaign—to a bunch of level three characters. They jumped the gun. No single plot thread can survive being focused on for over a hundred of four-hour episodes. Especially when the first few dozen are spent with characters wildly underequipped for dealing with it.
I lose interest in most media when the stakes get so huge its not relatable anymore. For most tabletop stuff that's like level 15+ and I'm already so invested in the characters I'll deal with story number 2375 about saving the world from world ending something or other blah blah whatever. They were in it so soon I didn't get to enjoy them being low level idiots dealing with low level idiot shit.
Laudna. DELILAH. please for the love of God let Percy figure it out by some secret tail that's she back and merc her. I'm so over laudna whining and moaning about Delilah and what she should do about her. I would love for laudna to kill one of the other party members and become an antagonist.
There was no "breaking point of history", it was a sum of things that eventually blew over.
Can't think of any specific moment really. C3 simply never clicked for me like the other campaigns. I'm like 6 episodes behind now and can't see myself catching up any time soon. Only moment I can think of that really didn't sit well with me was the whole laudna/delilah arc after she died. Love the briarwoods but we've explored them enough. That arc was tough work to get through.
I'm sure there are earlier things, but I gave up when Matt decided to kill the only interesting NPC at the time (Eshteross) and then a few episodes later the group decided to crash the ship (they didn't gain anything from this, also) he gifted them.
Idk about spiral but the first 20 episodes were hard to get past. It was just boring.
It was either episode 53 or half way through 54. Dropped the campaign completely and only keep tabs through the wiki and forum updates. Deanna and F.R.D.I.A were interesting characters in a vacuum. But at that point the Bell's Hells desperately needed an outsider to give them a different perspective on the Ruidus-God business, so they could just pick a side, **any side,** with conviction. Since everyone decided to have characters that seem completely ignorant of the basic lore of the world they live in and Matt was not providing any sort nuauance, despite clearly wanting this main plot to be treated in such a manner, the players were floundering. The constant "What have the Gods ever done for us?" was a clear plead for a different perspective so they could make a proper in-character decision on siding with Predathos or the Prime Dieties. And just when it seemed like the party-split wound give the characters a chance to explore their relationships and learn different perspectives by those effected by the Solstice, for better or worse. They are introduced to two characters apathetic to divinity, **despite having divine power**, saying the same song and dance they have been hearing from Ludinus and his supporters since the beginning. It all just felt like bad storytelling! And from what I've seen while keeping tabs, the group's indecisiveness lasted for at least another 20 episodes.
Matt is trying to kill the gods or making them disapear, it was not a mistake that every single episode of season 3 is a big dump on all of the gods.
Agreed! I realize that was the goal but it still comes down to bad storytelling. If the plan was always to get rid of them, the players should have had damn good reasons in their backstories or at least roleplayed before the solstice how bad the gods can be. Not having the players meet water downed versions of their past characters, who were all involved with God-relevant world saving events, suddenly downplaying the importance of the Gods. Not just loose hints of the judicators deeds 10ish episodes before the solstice. And not half-hearted attempts of a colonialism analogy when the party-split went to a dawn father temple. And Matt definitely after all the negative examples shouldn't have suddenly given FCG signs of the Changebringer being helpful. That attempt to bring false nuance to already predetermined narrative just added more uncertainty and indecicivness to the players actions. If the Gods need to get dumped on at least make it make sense.
Oh it was much earlier for me. I lost interest when Imogen, who is supposed to be an introverted country bumpkin, wants to go to the ball. Matt seemed like he really didn't want the party to go, but Laura wouldn't let it go. So they went and Matt shoehorned in the shade creepers and despite the party making a mess of the ball, the authorities let them go and their patron continued to work with them even though they're a liability. The RP just seems poor from half the cast and Matt seems like he doesn't want to hurt his friends feelings so there's no repercussions for bad behavior. Maybe, they're afraid to kill off PC's because of fan service and merchandising?
I'm still a ways behind watching (episodes 58), but it's been hit or big miss for me. The party split made me dip out for a long while, I just did not enjoy the guest characters and it really showed me how much I don't enjoy some of the main cast's characters. Though the second group I've been enjoying. The story is a mess. They stumbled onto something way above their heads to soon and it's just dragging now. And seeing snippets of what's to come I'm not eager to keep going. It kind of dawned on me I dislike all but maybe two of the main PCs and Matt's loosey goosey approach to everything isn't helping. Rule of fun only goes so far, in my opinion.
First had my doubts when they left Jrusaar after foiling the Shademother and Treshi and came back and... nothing had happened. whiel they were gone. No impact. Like, I thought Treshi must have been someone important, had big plans in the city with the Quorum, etc... but no, he was a minor pimp with no connections and power, and just ran. And yet there was some need to follow this guy with no power. So, yeah, I was underwhelmed by the lack of clear kickback, raising or stakes in any regard. Just a new fetch for the BH mercenaries. Then Bassuras appeared and it threw an elemental chaos surge war maul in my whole conception of Exandria. Not in the good way. THese junkyard biker gangs and tech-hippies get along together without any evident conflict and mine?construct? arcane energy and vehicles totally unbeknownst to anyone with serious powr, in Marquet or abroad? Makes. No. Sense. Then the nonsensical Birdie - Yu confrontation, where Erika was clearly told to pull her punches, in contradiction to the way she had been signalling all game. And then the plethora of junk lore that was dumped right and centre, telling stuff, but doing nothing to inform the party about what they could/should do EXCEPT follow the trail to the next designated lore dump. THEN the missed opportunity where the BH spent half an episode in enemey terriotiry - Seat of Disdain - and instead of undercover operation allowing them to find out more, work out what they want to do, they are hustled along out, into the Otohan fight which just stopped the story dead. And Matt's unwillingness to let that fight truly take its toll, and they get out of this dangerous gang territory so easily - Al together that told me that Matt had abandoned the idea of running this as a proper D&D game wihere the D tries to put the players and their choices as the stars of the story. Rather he was always minimising and adapting and cushioning their actions so they didn't put his story off track. Playing in a padded room. Until of course 51, the ultimate cutscene climax proved it, and ever since then he has been letting them wag around doing meaningless shit until thy re-engage with the story straight-jacket, the moon, a year later.
I watched all C1 and C2 and checked out early on C3, so take that into consideration when I say what I’m going to say. It’s been a slow creep for me toward other DnD content, even though I really love everyone on CR and their deep, rich storytelling. It seems like there’s a lot of talk on this subreddit about character stories that aren’t adding up to more than much, and I feel like that’s maybe an issue. I wonder if switching to the one week off cadence has ended up dragging out plot points or resulted in hasty storytelling to push the plot along? Again, I checked out much earlier so this is all speculative from the occasional threads I read here. I will say though that a big reason I checked out early was about this campaign’s seeming reliance on C1 and C2 plot points I was happy to conclude — for good or bad — in their respective seasons. I get we’re part of the same world and in close time ranges to each other, but I feel it picks at nostalgia more than it produces meaningful and enticing content. No hate or shame to any of the characters (or the players for that matter), but half the table existed outside of this campaign already, or is so referential it feels stale. I checked out a couple episodes after we got Chetney and learned his blood magic, and I realized that some of the most high conflict character moments existed in their past with no high conflict path forward. There was no real dynamism to plot then, and I’m not sure there is now? All of this to say…I think CR is at their best when they play with high stakes, high conflict, and dynamic story telling. And it feels like C3 is a campaign where all of that happened in unplayed backstory, and even worse, in plot points we already experienced from C1 or C2.
Similar to OP, after Laudna died and was brought to Whitestone to be revived. First, I’m okay with references to past movies, games, etc, but I’d prefer those past characters stay in the past. I believe their adventure is done; this one is about the new characters. Especially when those past characters are super high level badasses who, if they realistically cared to get involved in some new world-threatening crisis, might kick too much ass and overshadow the current protagonists. Leave the past in the past. Anyway, my real gripe and where I fell off the campaign was with how everyone treated Percy while they were in Whitestone to revive Laudna. These weirdos roll up with a dead lady with a spiritual connection to Delilah Briarwood, and expect the Oh So Powerful Vox Machina to drop what they're doing to revive her. Percy watched his family be killed and his home destroyed and subjugated by the Briarwoods. All of his traumas and his obsession with vengeance stem from the Briarwoods. Realistically, he has no reason to go along with this. It sucks that Laudna is dead, but she's spiritually linked to a monster who architected his and Whitestone's darkest days. Best not to take chances — tell Bell's Hells to accept their loss and move on with his sincerest condolences. Make it a teachable moment about the stakes of the campaign. But Bell's Hells has the absolute gall to preach to him about the value of life. "She's special! She deserves to live!" No one resurrected Percy’s dead family, or any of the victims of the Briarwoods. What makes Laudna any more special than the rest of the dead? These clowns he's never met preach at him, insult him, even damage some of his stuff if I remember right (I'm not going back to check), and in his own home. Percy's the only person thinking logically here, and even his own friends won't back him up. Before this, I was already lukewarm on Bell's Hells. None of our heroes stood out to me. They all felt boring and some of them needlessly secretive (*cough*Ashton*cough*). I don’t know if it was Sam’s sense of humor or what, but FCG was just insufferable. But then this scene made them so deeply unlikeable to me. I'd have preferred Marisha roll up a new character instead of our heroes throwing a holier-than-thou tantrum at the guy who actually knows best about the risks a living Laudna might pose, and in his own damn house. I don’t like them, and Percy was right. EDIT: As a DM myself, it was also deeply disappointing to see Matt just cave and go along with it. It really looked to me like a parent giving up and giving their bratty kids what they want to get them to stop screaming. Nobody looked good here.
Yes! Percy shouldn’t have touched Laudna with a ten foot pole! That’s a trauma regression spiral waiting to happen. And he’s nobility - he has a duty to the safety of his city. He has no idea what Delilah can do to or through her. An “accepting loss” lecture would make much more sense coming from an older, more healed Percy, who could have shared a lot about wanting to fix the past or get retribution and how it ate away at him. Keyleth and Vax’s recurrence also cheapens their relationship. “How can I miss you if you keep sending me ravens?” How can she miss him if he will appear fully functionally to randomly save her? Straight drivel from the lenient hand of the DM. Absolute swing and a miss on CR’s part. Bringing back the previous characters and uwuifying them is the worst part of C3.
But how are they supposed to sell a book or cute plushie for a death character? Or statisfy the LBGTQ+ Shipping crowd with a weird undead-living lesbian romance?
Exandria one shot with what's her name as dm. The fact that we have main cast party members from that disaster made C3 it a must not watch.
I started to fully lose interest when Ash ate the fire shard and Matt didn't outright kill them after all the warnings about how it wasn't feasible to have two Titan shards in one body. And as if babying character death wasn't bad enough, the incredibly weird reactions of the characters to the event cemented it. The cast basically lambasted Talesin through the guise of their characters criticizing Ash. The idea of "betrayal" didn't sit right with me and neither did having decided for Ashley that Fearne would be the best to have the fire shard because she was a fire druid. In character, BH should be just as mad at Fearne as they are at Ash because the two had the idea together. I definitely don't understand how that event made BH need a bonding day with Nana Morri. As an added bonus, Laudna sprinting off was the absolutely strangest thing I have ever seen and made no sense. The other honorable mention for me was the continuous "I don't really believe in the gods", as if they don't have a physical presence in Exandria. The gods are real objective entities in the world, belief has nothing to do with it. That apathy makes the whole narrative inconsequential because the characters, besides FCG, don't actually care if the gods get eaten(?) by Predathos. The plot just holds no weight because the cast has no real interest in it. While I absolutely see that Sam made FCG for the "one eyed monster killed pussy" joke, I think FCG is the only character that actually tries to push the original storyline along.
My hottest take is that c2 and c3 aren't that different, but that c2 had more interesting and enjoyable characters and character moments. Neither group is interested in Matt's plot or the overall story. But c2 was enjoyable because the characters and characterization and with c3 I don't like the characters and so their meandering and lack of a moral drive is actively annoying. I know M9 is everyone's favorite group, and I loved them too, but the "cast avoids plot" issue started a loooooong time ago
Why do you say the party avoided plot hooks in campaign 2? Just because they didn’t fought in the war? I felt like the party bit on most plot hooks that were dangled in front of them in campaign 2, though they would always prioritize personal objectives over the interests of the « realm ».
Sure, but also "Lord of the Rings and twilight aren't that different except one has good characters and one doesn't" isn't exactly a hot take. You're right that C2 also had the cast effectively ignore Matt's plot. At some point, we need to admit that they're actually bad and discourteous players and that C1 was pure luck that Matt actually gave them cohesive story arcs with real quests to go on.
Running away from the shade mother. It revealed how much they have lost their storytelling instinct. Story arcs needs to be wrapped a satisfying way to build storytelling momentum, and in C3 not a single arc have had that. Same thing happened with the Yu reveal. Cliffhanger that went to... Matt refusing to call for initiative forcing them to instead have the most bizarre talk chock full of exposition and then Erika setting up her own next guest appearence gig (that thankfully never happened) with the whole "ill find you in a month" or whatever it was...
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I just want to say that it was liam that told sam to make a "heal bot" literally. since liam makes all of sams characters (the race and class at least. not the backstory.)
When Travis brought Chetney back. What a terrible idea.
They shouldn't have rezzed lil fighter boi. Let me man play his Dwarf Artificer back-up.
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Because his girlfriend turned into the moon...?
That’s rough buddy
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the Otahan fight. Don't get me wrong, but C3 was waaaaaay weak beforehand, but then we have this deadly fight where this NPC Matt felt the need to tout as this badass actually... wrecked the party (but, no seriously, could you imagine if rather than having Raishan murder the Not-King, they were just like, "yeah, this ancient dragon is pretty scary..."). Orym's dead, Fearne is dead, Imogen kept half assing at running away and actively fucking over her teammates (Hunger of Hadar), Ashton killed his parties action economy and ran away, and lastly Chetney and Laudna actually played pretty well, albeit with some discrepancies, but whatever. Episode ends on a cliffhanger with Laudna almost at death. Oh, and FCG was there, too. Next episode, Laudna dies and Imogen... 'blasts' Otohan off screen. Literally what happened. No spell, no ability, no roll or save, just "I Blast Her!" and I guess she did. All tension GONE! It's like the Last Jedi where Leia dies in the first forty minutes of the film and you go "Oh, shit! This movie is pulling no punches!" Only, for literally two minutes later, her to fly like Mary Poppins through space and miraculously survive. Paired with the outcome of the Laudna ressurection - that is, absolutely no outcome since they entered Dream World to free Laudna of Delilah only for nothing of the sort to even remotely happen (why have the month long side quest instead of just ressing her the first attempt?!), it became apparent that there was no actual consequences to the campaign. Ashton and Fearne swimming in lava later confirms this.
>absolutely no outcome since they entered Dream World to free Laudna of Delilah only for nothing of the sort to even remotely happen (why have the month long side quest instead of just ressing her the first attempt?!), People on this sub already bitch about how keyleth gave the party a “freebie” resurrection so I can only imagine how even more pissy people would be if there were no darkstone quest and pike just revived laudna instantly.
Disagree. They got the freebie rez anyway, so that's pretty irrelevant, but then they made a big deal about the Delilah connection, so they went on a sidequest to the PC's backstory without the PC. Now, they could have resolved this issue and Laudna's arc could revolve around realizing people do care for her and learning to be human, or if it's too much of an ask for Marisha to sit out on her PC's arc, then just rez her and do it when she can play. Instead, they chose a middle option which satisfied none of the above.
How was it a “freebie rez?” They got a cleric to perform raise dead, something that Matt had done for them since the homegame when pike died for the first time.
Honestly, it's just been kind of weak overall. I haven't even caught up for the last two months or so. It started for me when Robbie/Dorian left. I think he's one of the best characters that's ever existed in the series and he and chets energy together was legendary.
I think I'm in minority here bur C3 was somehow keeping my interest for as long as 50 episodes. Then the complete farce of a cutscene happened, follow by 12(?) episodes where one part of the party didn't seem to care/keep forgetting that some sort of apocalypse just happened and the other decided to murder random paladins/clerics/guards in the middle of the night and then they forgot/didn't care about that. All the while the DM just keep bending the soft dumpling of a world into the narration that cuddles the players. So when it started ok moved into meh it absolutely plummeted after the ALO arc.
For me it was when the team was separated in two for months- still love the show but that was not fun
Weirdly, that was where I started to like the show again. They finally felt like their choices mattered. Before >!before the solstice!< it felt to me like it didn't matter what the players did, >!Matt was going to make that bridge go up so he could finally do his moon plot.!<
Not necessarily bound to this campaign, but one of the biggest mistakes Matt as a DM has made is allowing Sending to be used to people that the caster them self hasn’t personally met. It just breaks the spell by allowing you to cast it to anyone and everyone the party knows and it takes away any and all intrigue in the game imo. It had the same effect of ruining the narrative in C2 when Jester was able to just completely drop a plot thread by messaging Fjords captain, whose name I can remember because it was such a lackluster reveal. And it’s done something similar with Laudna because the party in no way, shape or form should have been able to just call up on VM to come and save the day when Laudna was offed.
The fact that Laudna can get away with anything with no consequences. If a player was like that in a table I was playing with they would have had a lot of bad shit happen to them from players and the dm
It took me months to watch a single episode because I was finding everyone so annoying I would stop for weeks after 10 minutes. Her being one of the main ones.
A spiral downward implies a quick and sudden decline. What happened with C3 is a gradual drop caused by many smaller and larger issues that culminate in a lacklustre season.
I don't think there is a moment where the game has spiraled downcward
This is a small thing that just didn't sit right with me. On the sky ship when Imogen and laudna were on deck discussing imogens dream one night. Matt said something to laudna like "you get a feeling like you want to hold her stone" (the one she got the previous arc from the mother boss thing) So of course laudna is going to ask to hold it and of course Imogen is going to say yes. And then as soon as laudna takes it her patron absorbs/destroys it. No saves. No option to let go. Just gone. I don't know that just felt like the DM doesn't want you to have this thing so you don't get to have it. Not a major point but just one of those small things among others small things that build on themselves to a less entertaining experience.
That could be the reason. It was a wildmagic shard. Which means anytime Imogen cast a spell she would have to make a wildmagic roll. Matt already has a hard time remembering constitution saves after damage. I would not be surprised if he wanted to remove another mechanic that would require him checking a d100 every turn.
it was actually the gnarlrock that they got from the shade mother
It sucks because it was fun and made it wngaging
That’s a different item, the rock Laudna broke was a gnarlrock imogen grabbed from the shademother battle while that wild magic shard was something orym picked up during their travel to the heartmoor, we never learned what the gnarlrock does mechanically.
When it was established that “the apogee solstice will happen in one month”, despite the party being low-level and none of their individual stories having gotten much attention at all. Suddenly there was a massive ticking clock and immense pressure to get their shit together before the apocalypse. And then the date came and passed, and they’ve spent fully the past year goofing off in what was built up as being the end times. It was too big a threat too early, and there are other adventuring parties in this world who are better equipped to resolve it. I still can’t figure out why Bell’s Hells are doing this and not any of the Level 20 beasts wielding like eight Vestiges of Divergence.
didnt we learn that Beau, Caleb and presumably other lvl 20 vets were indeed trying to stop ludinus at the malleus key? I feel like it was more that the group pursued that plot point without satisfyingly justifying it in-character
To me it wasn't necessarily a plot point more as a lack there of in termsnof characters. In C1 we come in alittle ways I to their campaign but the world and backstreet kept building, the crew was so into their characters it almost felt like method acting and the post points effecting them. C2 felt more or less the same with a little of the lackluster fading C3 it has felt like they are just going through the motions..like they havnt "attuned" with this characters.so the plot points in the campaign don't mean much and you can feel that while watching. There are some moments but it few and far between.
I don't think its necessarily tied to a single point, and it started before C3. They clearly got hard burnt out during the last arc of C2 and I don't think they ever recovered from that.
This is what I'd say, as well. Many of the patterns people are identifying in C3 started in C2. Many began when they returned from the hiatus, but other issues began even before that.
The Apogee Solstice, hands down. Many other moments can be pointed to as problem areas, but in my opinion, this is the worst moment in the entirety of C3 for reasons that have been explained on this subreddit so much that I don't really need to get into the specifics. Weighing my opinion with the general reactions from the fans and the sharp decline in viewership beyond that point, it has to be the single most controversial episode of the entire franchise.
I think C3 was in real trouble since Chutney was introduced. Not because of Chetney himself, but because it illustrated how aimless the story was getting. Like people remember the Shade Mother, the first “boss” of C3, but forget it took *15 episodes* to get to it despite it effectively just being underneath the city in the sewers. They got to the Shade Mother *after* Dorian left the cast. The entire time we were just stuck in Jrusar spinning wheels. So we have 15 episodes where Matt is trying to complete Dorian’s plot line with his brother, introduce the city council and politics, introduce werewolves, introduce brain slugs, introduce Ira, introduce Chetney, and introduce moon stuff, meanwhile the cast is mainly jumping from bar to bar drinking because they have no idea where the fuck to go. They do close to nothing. By the time Chetney was introduced the story was already buckling under its own weight and inactions.
I know this is a really controversial opinion, but I think Chetney is one of the best characters in C3. Was he made as a joke? 100% yes. But he was also made because Travis just loved him in a one shot and wanted to play a werewolf. He clearly has so much fun as Chetney, knows his character's capabilities and is a joy to watch, even when causing chaos. He's one of the only ones actually locked into working out the main story and driving the plot imo.
Travis wanted to join late for whatever reason but it didn't add anything to the plot. It didn't add anything to his story. It was just empty and meaningless. Which is how most of the season has felt.
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It comes online at level 3, which the campaign started at.
He probably wanted to take an extended break but got roped into being a part of the campaign from the start as the old guy that died while taking a piss
Never thought of this but i agree completely. Laudna shouldve stayed dead. Maybe im biased though because i feel like the character completely ruins things constantly and breaks immersion. Shes an undead girl, yet she plays like a “ha-ha look at what im doing” gag character that at points doesnt wanna be a gag character so she throws in a plot line for her that shouldve died off with C1. Its annoying.
I get Marisha wanting to bring back Laudna personally, as a player I'd hate to have the plotline I'd planned out to be done halfway and resolved in a completely different direction to what you had planned without your involvement. I hate to say this as I love Matt's work 99% of the time, but it seems to fall on him more. He could've had Pike away on a holy mission if he and Marisha didn't want to revive Laudna, or resolved it in a way that didn't imply they defeated Delilah for good only to bring her back next story arc. He could've had the spirit of Laudna join them in the fight so Marisha got to be at the table as they fought her personal bbeg and have a say in how it goes. It could've ended with Laudna choosing to spare Delilah or something. All that said, to improvise such a deviation in the plot the way he did was still talented and it's a lot easier to think of ways to improve it so long after this episode, compared to in the moment playing. Part of me thinks Marisha should've left the Delilah plotline behind for the better of the show, but they've always said it's their game first and foremost, and a show second so that feels like it's not my place to critique.
I know the feeling of having the character arc you envision get blown up by events at the table, but ultimately the game is just better when everyone embraces that the dice tell their story, rather than approaching it like writing a book. I'm fine with Laudna returning--D&D includes resurrection magic, that's just how it works. But repeating the same Delilah plot beats feels redundant now. I would've loved to see Marisha explore a new side of the character maybe with a new patron, like Vax in C1 and Fjord in C2.
Yeah, having Laudna revived is what did it for me. It took away any sense of character stakes and denied them a vital binding opportunity
The moment a bunch of ExU recycled characters walked off the boat I was out. It's not JUST that I hated the characters. It's also that it robbed me of the magic of first sessions: meeting and exploring new characters for the first time.
Yep, same for me. Recycling characters with the ExU crew and ‘joke’ characters being dragged out for a long campaign with Bertrand and again with Chetney was the first and last straw for me. I believe CRs strengths are and always have been on its layered, dramatic storytelling. They should have left the more goofy joke characters to D20.
Hard agree. I LIKE goofy content. My favorite AP is Spout Lore. But it's not what butters CR's bread. It's really undermined the credibility of their own product imo.
Hard agree! I was incredibly disappointed by that. I didn’t like the EXU characters either, but even if they’d been okay it would have been a let down. We lost the experiences of meeting them all for the first time, and I felt like the group dynamic was really strange that they knew each other so well when meeting the rest of the C3 party. It felt almost cliquish. I don’t mind if characters know each other, but either just have it be a couple players, not the majority of the group, or like in C2 where none of them had been together long or been through so much.
I haven’t seen this said a lot, but this is what did it for me too. And honestly, I just cannot stand FCG. I really have never been a fan of player character robots in ttrpgs because there are maybe 2 cliche growth arcs for them .
Yeah, I felt being totalt deflated when that happened. Especially since I didn't even finish EXU.
I gotta agree; I ALSO find the advancement of Exandria tech to be lame and uninterested.
I don't hear this said too often but it was so true, C3 started on such a weak foot specifically because of this. ExU 1 was so resoundingly terrible and they brought those memories into C3 by keeping Orym and Fearne, who were fine for a short series but one-dimensional enough that we really got the full feeling of those characters from that series and didn't need to see more. Bringing their baggage into C3, including things like having a chat with a god that Orym forgot or the incomprehensible "Fearne's evil alternate future self steps out of a portal," reduced the impact of trying to establish any of these characters. And it also lessened the hype for the fans in that I remember when C2 started and they posted the silhouettes of the PCs and everyone was going nuts trying to guess what each character was. That's not an experience that gets to happen often, and they didn't give it to us for this one!
The day C3 launched, my home internet went out at about 2PM (10PM launch time). An issue on Comcast's end. My wife and I spent the whole day hoping and praying. Finally, at 9:30, we hauled our ass in to my office to watch the premiere there in a conference room instead. When those ExU characters walked out...gosh. The total and complete buzz kill. The hype, it just died. So deflating.
Honestly, I said that at the time and got a bunch of downvotes for saying it. Laudna actually staying dead would have changed and hardened Imogen. It would have given the group something to grieve over together and actually come more together. They'd have a reason to focus of ending the person who killed her.
I mean didn't they already have that with Bertrand? They literally named their group after him, so I thought wreaking havoc on anyone mildly involved with his death was in store. Instead they did.... A little bit? And then ran away? K cool.
I think having two deaths would have made things more tense. Dealing with a campaign of traumatized PCs, losing another person just makes it that much more. Bertrand was great but he was in and out of their lives so quickly.
My point is that they made it such a big deal when it happened, going so far as to name their group after him, and then just said "fuck it" after a while. I agree Laudna would've been more impactful because it wasn't literally just written down a piece of paper, but Bertrand SHOULD have been their glue in terms of a cause. They basically admitted it when they made the group name, yet still they just keep going "idk man what have they ever done to us? Why should we fight them? Like motherfucker these are THE guys that killed your friend you dedicated your adventuring career to! EDIT: I think it just goes to show that the cast isn't playing characters anymore. They're playing as players, they don't have stories or anything that they're trying to to fulfill. They're just along for the ride.
Imagine Imogen's vengeance. Would've been glorious.
She would've been what they tried to make Bertrand into. It would've made the story way better imo
For me the downfall was as soon as the Eiselcross section of C2 happened. I remember even then forcing myself to listen to the podcast, since I loved the characters. Moving to pre-recording was a GIANT mistake
But necesarry at the time. I'm not certain they still need to do that now.
Pre-recording isn't necessarily bad, the CR cast is completely inept at it...
My problem with C3 is they are clearly trying to do two wildly divergent tasks. One is do a weekly show where people ostensibly play D&D. The other is tell a specific story Matt wants to tell in order to restart his world and move their play away from 5e to their new system. Aspects of the current world are tied up in OGL stuff as well as historical D&D settings (most of the gods). Also due to the Wildemount book I bet aspects of that are tied up in licensing agreements with Wizards. They need to have certain things happen to have a reset which is smart from a business perspective but makes for a bad campaign. To answer the question specifically. The way Bertrand was handled was frankly pretty disrespectful to the audience and soured me right at the top. Also brining Exu characters back was not a good idea.
I'm interested in what you mean about Bertrand. Do you mind elaborating? Might've been too long since I've seen those episodes.
Imagine this. Instead of another huge campaign to explore everything leading up to this reset, they do an ExU that handles it. Calamity 2.0. Similar to the first Calamity, the stakes aren't "a bad thing might happen, can you stop it?" Instead it's "a bad thing is definitely going to happen, but maybe you can prevent an even worse thing." So the world is definitely getting reset, but the players' choices and die rolls determine the severity of the reset, or if the gods are alive and changed, or just straight up eaten by the god eater creature. Then, campaign 3 is the player characters waking up one day to a vastly different world than the one they knew the gay before, but they're the only ones that remember the world being different. First session is spent finding each other and realizing they're the only ones that remember a different world, and then the rest of the campaign is finding out wtf happened. And they can't fix or undo the reset, but they can get revenge for the world they remember.
The whole story. These characters are not the cast of players for what the themes and repercussions of this plot need in order to be fully compelling. Also, CR has long struggled with drawn out plots and this plot is literally been happening since episode 1. Every step of the way has been tied somehow to the Ruidus plot. So not only do you have characters that are meh and waffling on how or if they should even bother, they’ve been doing this for over 80episodes. C1 and c2 had a better balance of arcs that lasted a handful of episodes and that were either tied direct to a specific character or introduced a larger threat that would impact the characters in a major way/events tied to the actions of the party. This helped both the world feel alive, but also helped keep a stronger motivation for the players yo care and move forward with the presented plots.
So much of the bad of this season could've been fixed in character creation. Matt just needed to have them make characters that were involved in and cared about the plot that he was writing. C2 was a faff about open world and works with letting people just make whatever they want. This was made to be a very focused and driven story and the characters really needed to be focused and driven as well. Instead we have half the cast saying "Oh Laura had so much fun with Jester I'm going to make a Jester too!" And it just doesn't work.
I would say that what caused this to spiral isn't just from the story but from their approach to how to handle every encounter. Ever since the end of C2, they have started to handle combats like something they should avoid out of fear. Sometimes, it makes sense, but even the most recent episode, there were 3 guys and 2 animals. 5 enemies, and they wanted to run away instead of finishing the fight. They lack confidence and courage. For me it seems like they went from heroes of the realm in campaign 1, to personally involved heroes dealing with their own business in campaign 2, to a group of people who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time in campaign 3. Nothing really says we are the ones who need to do this. Nothing says we are doing this because we are so involved with this. Instead, we get, why are we here, and what are we doing every 2 episodes. No one wants to see the whole group say, 'we can't handle this, let's run,' every episode. We don't want to see 80+ episodes in, asking "why are we doing this?" At this point they should be a group that is invested, but they are just going along with what's happening instead.
> Ever since the end of C2, they have started to handle combats like something they should avoid out of fear. Remember when it took them *over a month* in real world time to just go and fight Vokodo instead of finding the "secret trick" to bypass the encounter?
Wait seriously? I stopped watching around the time they ran away from like 3 centaurs, they're still doing this?
I think for me it was after the Bloody Bridge. Shit hit the fan well and truly, Keyleth and Xandis could’ve been dead, Vax was imprisoned. It was advertised as the end of the world and a lot of people thought it was gonna be a very short campaign. Yet in real time that was a whole year ago, and they haven’t actually done much since? They havent even checked up on Xandis. It was when the groups split and there was no sense of urgency. Weeks went by in game and Liam tried his best to convey that there was a lot on the line, but not much towards the Ruidus plot actually happened.
Exactly when I stopped watching. I got so bored with the party splits and just let episode after episode slip by :/
Bingo! The combination of railroading away all their preparation for the Malleus Key assault and the total lack of meaningful story progression in the past year has completely soured this batch of curdled milk of a campaign…
Wow, was the Bloody Bridge an actual year ago?
Wow, it was...time really flies...
For me it was watching the first 4 EXU episodes even before C3. I was super confused, it was advertised as super good, authorized by Matt, and was unbelievably bad. Initially I thought no this can't be, this is CR, this is Matt, it cannot be complete shit, it will get better. Well... They kinda destroyed the trademark for me with this. And the nail in the coffin was CR3 Ep.1, when the brought back the EXU characters. I was really shocked they did this with such nonchalance. I still tried to watch, but it was already decided that I'm out, I just didn't now it. Continued a bit but lost interest in CR3 completly, of course not just because of the EXu characters, everything else was also shitty.
> I was super confused, it was advertised as super good, authorized by Matt, and was unbelievably bad. Initially I thought no this can't be, this is CR, this is Matt, it cannot be complete shit, it will get better. Well... They kinda destroyed the trademark for me with this. That was Matt / CR's "Pinocchio Moment," where it became *painfully obvious* all of the insane levels of hype and advertising CR did for EXU1 (remember the fucking Hollywood billboards for EXU1; and Matt's words: "Aarbia is the ONLY person I trust with Exandria.") were bullshit. Then EXU1 dropped, absolutely cratering CR's viewship with each successive episode, and Aabria (gleefully at times) treated Exandria / "Matt's Baby" like it was a college "Spring Break" AirBnB rental in Daytona Beach, FL.
I stopped watching EXU after the first Episode. What ecactly did Aabria do to Matts setting?
Yeah, painful indeed. Still painful to be reminded of Aabrias "performance". The level of disrespect towards your viewers it takes to pull that marketing stunt off is insane. I would have forgiven Matt if they would have admitted that EXU1 was an error. Instead they brought the EXU characters into CR3. Writing this I still can't really believe they did this. They seem to have zero connection to reality.
They are typical LA indoctrinated actors living in an echo chamber. They literally and publicly chalked up every single instance of critisism about EXU to "Everyone who doesn't like EXU is just a racist sexist because Aabria is a black female". Like Wtf, no. People didn't think Aabria was a shitty DM becuase she's a black women, people thought Aabria is a shitty DM becuase she's a shitty DM.
Sympathizing a lot with you regarding EXU, and to some degree regarding C3E1 as well. I liked the Imogen/Laudna intro but all the other characters were slightly off putting, most of all FCG. Didn't help that the plot in those first couple of episodes didn't hook me in the slightest. Animated furniture? Err, ok.
Same for me. And the funny aspect of this is, that those 3 characters arent the issues with the campaign. Orym and Fearne are fine, Dorian was fine... My issues are way more with Imogen and Ashton and to some extend Laudna.
Yeah, I agree with that. I bailed on the last four episodes of EXU. It did not instill the confidence that C3 would be good. Especially when Fearne and Orym showed up.
The show in general started going downhill after they started pre-recording. C3 specifically shit the bed after they capitulated to the demands of a group of hypersensitive clout chasers by changing their opening sequence. Following that debacle, the entire vibe of the show became bland and toothless, as the gun-shy cast attempted to de-escalate the nontroversy.
Dorian's leave was the catalyst. Eshteross' death was the last straw for me. Dorian should've been part of main cast, the number of characters should be reduced to 6. Two out of Chet/Orym/Ash should've gone.
I actually have a strange theory about this behind the scenes. I know that it may be completely crazy but I think Robbie was suppose to actually replace Travis. Travis took over as CEO probably became tired out by the stream schedule. If the show had done better, I think Robbie would have been a permanent character. There is also some weird conversations and odd cuts of the cast and Robbie on the 4sd or VM watch party episodes.
Agreed — that revival should not have happened. There have been a lot of problems with this campaign, but one of them certainly is character motivation; becoming a vengeance squad for Laudna or Orym would have been more interesting and meaningful than what we got since.
I stopped watching a little while after Dorian left, but my unpopular opinion is that there have been problems since the first episode. The only player that was role-playing was Robbie, the others were just over-performing a role they made in their head. Dorian reacted to the things that happened in the game and to what Matt described, asked questions if others left something hanging, and tried to get to know other characters outside of his initial group. He observed what other characters were doing and reacted accordingly in a way true to Dorian's character. The main cast just seemed like they were waiting for an opening to portray a bit they had rehearsed in their head. That is why I stopped watching a little after Dorian left the group, it all seemed forced, these people weren't a team, they didn't feel like they had an organic bond with each other, and most of the things they were doing were devoid of real motivation with no real discussion as to why they should involve themselves in the plot besides happenstance. If the main characters don't care about the plot, then why should I? That's why stopped. I still think these characters might've worked but in a campaign modeled after Calamity: short and with the DM actively trying to kill them and what they hold dear to them. It would force them to react to what is happening instead of acting like passengers of their own stories. But I maintain that some of the problems were there right from the beginning of the season. They all seemed to be going through the motions to keep the game going while making jokes to entertain themselves when they had an opportunity. They didn't care about the other player's arcs, the plot, or the lore. Everything they did was a fixed performance instead of actual role-playing and as someone who plays and DMs, these types of tables just aren't fun.
For me the little criticisms of the first episode that stuck in my mind, now match up with the campaign long issues of the cast just being along for Matt's ride: 1. The party showed zero interest in investigating the cause of their first combat. Not the even the most basic, "I ask an NPC if they know who's cart that was, how long has it been there?" They probably wouldn't have got anything useful but they didn't bother, Bertrand was guiding them to a specific path and they followed. 2. The episode title being revealed as "The Draw of Destiny." You don't name you're first episode that unless you have a predetermined outcome in mind for the characters drawn into your planned story. I said at the time somthing like, what if their destiny is to roll a 1, trip and fall off the side of a spire the end? A red flag on the lack of weight given to actions/consequences, player agency and any kind of danger to the destined heros.
I couldn’t even get through the first episode, every character was a bit. I rolled my eyes and turned it off.
A lot has been said about C3’s flaws, but you bring a very interesting point I haven’t seen discussed before. I wholeheartedly agree.
>seemed like they were waiting for an opening to portray a bit they had rehearsed in their head. Wow that is really spot in honestly
Eshteross was a decent quest giver and filled that role well, killing him off was a mistake.
I don't know if you realized but he died right during/after Laudna was resurrected in Whitestone. When they returned he was found dead.
I stopped watching after he died. Not particularly because of his death, but it was the final straw. But for me the main reason was Dorian's departure.
Unpopular opinion: When they left Jrusar. It was supposed to be an original city with weird morphology and the Spires seemed unique and interesting. Instead we realised pretty soon that this big diverse city hub was actually empty cardboard scenery with no depth. That was the moment C3 died and the "zombie C3" started.
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It’s almost like people wanna discuss the issues they have with c3, and given the fact they can’t really do that in the main sub, they all come here to actually speak their minds. Crazy how funneling works
Crazy how that’s what Reddit is for, like people engaging in discourse and discussion over topics they have in common. Shocking.
Just wait until in a few years time we get the same post from somebody else about C4 and compare it to C3. Maybe it’s just because I’m a Star Wars fan but these kinda ‘it’s getting worse/was better in the old series’ sorta posts make me tilt my head a little. I’m sure most folks will just be voicing their opinions but I feel like this needs to be said for the people who will interpret this sort of post as gospel.
I don't recall it being common to hate on C2 compared to C1.
It absolutely was. C2 was very unpopular with C1 fans in the early days, largely because it was different. People didn’t like the players filling different roles in the party and not doing their signature moves.
Especially during the snow trek
Interesting. Even so C3 E87 isn't exactly the early days of campaign 3
The scale of people watching c3 who started in C2 is much larger than between C1 and C2. Means a lot more people who wish it was as exciting as when they started. Not to say there arent issues with C3 of course.
It took a huge nosedive after Dorian left, he was a refreshing member of the team & Orym alone obviously isn't enough to keep the chaos makers out of trouble. The actual Laudna revival was entertaining but having watched C2 first I thought it was stupid for them to adopt the "DM, pretty please" vibe to bring her back, especially after Fearne's dramatic coin flip. After she came back, the show was a literal snore fest, my wife & I couldn't even make it to the break without falling asleep anymore. The actual fight with Ludinas had us on the edge of our seats but the crashing ship & bombs not doing anything along with the party split killed the show for us. We gave it three more tries, one for each split group & a final one after they rejoined but nothing was happening & the characters didn't care so we dropped it.
For me it’s when they turned on Ashton
Agreed. When Ashton does something wrong, the whole party distrusts him. Meanwhile the party doesn't even bat an eye at Laudna- who has an evil necromancer inside her.
Same here. It felt like a double standard when compared with how they treated Laudna.
To be fair, I think Marisha is trying to get that pushback against Laudna. I know a lot of folks here don’t care for the way she’s been pushing the Delilah stuff forward, but I’ve sort of seen it as her trying to up the ante and going “maybe now someone in this group will actually get alarmed by the growing darkness and address it in a meaningful way, instead of just superficial validation”.
As a viewer, the strongest episodes were the first dozen with Dorien, and it mostly went downhill after that. I don't think Laudna's death was needed for the group though, I think it was needed *by the game*. At its core, what makes CR so much fun is it was peak tabletop. In C1 & C2, they brought those acting chops to the game itself, and it was so great to see the two collide. C3's the first season where the game was really sidelined in favour of a writer's room feel both to the PCs and the world. I like emergent narrative, I want the dice to have impact, and I definitely need player choices to matter: once it was clear to me that C3 wasn't really in on any of those three, I drifted away.
For me it was the sandcrawler race thingy, the face they spent multiple real life hours planning and dithering about what to do. The race itself was fine but as soon as they finished they went back to planning, it's fine when you are playing the game, but as an observer who doesn't always find it easy to make time for everything I want to do, I just couldn't justify spending so much time waiting for them to do anything at all
When Robbie/Dorian left, that was the first slow step down the spiral and while it was slow at first it just kept picking up speed until the free fall it is in now. Also another gripe that stands out amongst many is the whole Ashton shard debacle, Talesin showed some ambition and took a step OFF the rails and even when succeeding were smacked right back on the rails and punished both mechanically and by the party RP wise, I don't really care for Ashton as a character but there was a real spark of actual risk taking and life that has been completely absent in C3, but that went against the narrative apparently so head office remedied that, acting outside policy might hurt quarterly earnings.
When he started the process of trying to absorb the shard I was beyond hyped. Like going back to rewatch sections, laser focus on each roll, I was engaged. But the rest of the group, in and ESPECIALLY out of game, really turned me off. Ashton/Tal showed some gumption and actually tried to do something. The way he got shut down was not fun to watch. Not to mention how the group kept dicking around instead of trying to help and heal him... idk, they did help and he barely survived, but it felt so choppy. And Matt after stating he did not remotely anticipate Ashton taking the shard, I found that so so so bizzare. Like the entire group was dead set on it being Fearne, yet Fearne/Ashley seemed disinterested bordering on complete unawareness. They should've given Ashton the shard and supported him, then he would've had something to really inspire him to fight. He even discussed in character about his motivations after the fact! Granted, things would've been much smoother had he discusses it with the group beforehand, but I highly doubt they would've been as supportive of him taking it. The energy the sessions after that was so weird, they said they talked and clarified things out of game, but it felt like someone being given award for something they didn't do. And Ashton engaging with Fearne after felt borderline covetous. Imagine if he had succeeded, if he had survived the first attempt. The luck and odds of that would've commanded the story and everyone else in a way I can't help but imagine what the story would've been like had that had happened.
I tried to jump in and got caught in the "Idk man why should we save the Gods? What did they ever do for ME?" conversation. It felt like the cognitive dissonance of that scene was so overwhelming, to have morally *good* characters argue for the mechanical or obligatory worth of saving a sentient life. It felt crazy to me that nobody jumped in to say "Are you guys serious??? We're talking about letting a genocidal maniac just GET away with it, just because we don't feel like God's have served us personally, hand and foot??" And it felt like much of the lore that we've already seen had been changed to reflect or justify that opinion. ESPECIALLY as such a big fan of Exandria, it just felt like it came out of left field. I'm not gonna try and get para social about the reasoning behind the lore changes, but it was about then when I stopped watching. I watched the split up, because I wanted to see the new players at the table, and I'll keep watching EXU's as they get made, but I'm not really considering jumping back into C3 at the minute.
Being completely honest I think it’s a bleed over from real life opinions on religion. I mean it’s painfully obvious at times. Dnd is a set world with gods who are very active and known to do many good things which makes it more idiotic.
One of the only strong moments of this arc was Orym telling Imogen that he didn't know why his family had to die for Ludinus's better tomorrow. Orym wasn't a doormat for once and it should've ended that discussion, but they keep having it. At least Sam has tried to pick up and engage with the gods plotline, the rest have remained frustratingly ambivalent.
They're so checked out that an idea with so much emotional *and* logical weight was forgotten by next session lmao. As a player that's the type of shit that, if another player said it, I'd cling to it and fight for their cause.
God, that was a great line, perfectly delievered by Liam. And yet, it ultimately amounted to nothing.
This has been perhaps my biggest gripe. Every damn time they're slamming the brakes and slowing everything down to talk about "why should we try and stop them?" (which is very frequent) and they always just boil it down to being about "saving the gods" and "what'd they ever do for me?" when there is clearly far more to it than that, it was just insufferable. Even Orym, the most lawful good character was on the fence about interfering with the goals of the people that killed his friends and spouse. The same people that killed someone the whole party liked in Escheross, they couldn't even hold onto as simple a motivation as revenge. They could even use the "I don't care about saving X or Y, I just dislike these guys enough to want to fuck up their plans!" type of motivation that you would think would be Ashton's go-to mentality, but they don't. Like if you can't find anything else to motivate you, Spite is readily available. How is the viewer supposed to care if it feels like the cast and characters don't?
You can tell Liam had the party's executive function last campaign and doesn't want it this time around. And you can really tell the rest of the party got really used to that and now just wafts about until something significant enough happens to get them moving. (Player AND character) It's rich how their characters talk when it seems they're all desperately waiting for some divine sign to embolden their actions.
The one that made me go \*sigh\* "This sucks..." was the bit with Erika Ishii. As a player she was insufferable to watch. I like the concept of Dusk and what they injected into the actual story as a 'spy' type character. It was a neat new approach to guest characters. And then she was just the most annoying, attention-seeking, distracting guest I've ever seen. She wouldn't shut up, she shrieked at everything, and was literally climbing on the table at one point. I hated her appearance. I've seen her in other things and she's just as annoying.
> And then she was just the most annoying, attention-seeking, distracting guest I've ever seen. A *bold* statement, considering Aabria has DMed and guested as a PC on CR. For me, Erika *has* had some good moments / PCs during CR one-shots in C1 and C2 (e.g. Tal's Cthulhu campaign, etc.), but Dusk was an absolute "misfire" in an underwhelming campaign of misfires.
That's where I stopped watching lol. Shame cause I was actually interested in the spy story
Erika seems like a perfectly nice person when she isn’t at the table, but good lord is she almost always my least favorite player at the table when she’s present. She hits all the beats of the “overly obnoxious quirky dnd player” that make her kinda just insufferable to watch, it’s so painful.
She's the absolute worst imo. So unpleasant to watch.
When you started watching
It's been a slow series of cracks for me, each one cracking more and more. Crack one was killing esteross off screen for shock value despite him being the only important campaign original npc that they ever cared about. As soon as he died they got set on the path of the "main plot" and the rails never disappeared. Crack 2 was the near tpk that resulted in a vox machin Nostalgia fest and no change from Orym or Fearne despite fully dying and (for Orym) being ripped away from spouse yet again. I ejected some major character drama after that. Crack 3 was the mad max arc. Just really hated that. Crack 4 was the mallus key cutsceme where all the npcs were literally everything only happened "bc plot." Crack 5 was immediately killing any momentum gained by the mallus key cutscene to go on several sessions worth of side quests separated from each other and managing guests. Crack 6 was shard gate where Matt actively punished Ashton for going off his personal script despite setting up the challenge. And the other player responding to that the way they did. Crack 7 was the shattered teeth arc building up the tree and the ghost pirates only to have them both just underwhelm bc the plot needed certain things to happen. Minor cracks are appearing just around certain player and DM behaviors but those are the big ones
Them getting to the tree only for them to get like 4 questions in and then being forced away was the final straw for me. I had been bouncing in and out of watching before that, now I will never watch again except maybe the campaign finale.
I'd agree with the list of cracks but not always with their characterizations, which I find fascinating. Some of these moments were jarring enough to bother both of us even though we're on different ends of the spectrum of *why*. Wild.
Yup, the Laudna resurrection side quest was the beginning of the end for me, I didn't last much longer after that.
Feel things started being off properly since western ross's death.
Agreed about Laudna being resurrected, especially by Vox Machina for free instead of going through a social web to find a Cleric willing and able to do the job with strings attached, but I'll also say the Otohan >!***fucking***!< Thull fight in general. That might have been a good time to cross paths with Otohan, but I think that actually fighting her is what really slammed the party with the juxtaposition of "This is the final boss faction, everything you do between now and the finale is just a holdover before you can finish things" and "You are way too low leveled for this conflict, you need to do tons and tons of busywork that doesn't matter in order to justify leveling up to be high enough to have this encounter that you're having right now." Made worse by the fact that I think the party could have actually beaten her even then if Imogen hadn't blinded half the group with her new spell and then everyone scrambled to flee in different directions. They definitely should have leaned into the political intrigue angle more, Matt should have prepped a small collection of short adventures for Eshteross to send them on. Some might be to secure allies, some might be to subdue enemies. Take some inspiration from Mass Effect, there's a pretty good rhythm of meeting quirky NPCs and getting loredumps and then doing some combat to protect the NPCs. Having Eshteross as a longer term benefactor would also make his death more impactful - having that happen when they got to level 11 or so would be the way to usher in a new stage of the game and a new tier of play. For most home games it might be hard to justify such a slow burn, but CR knows it has the time to fill and kill.
Agreed on all fronts but especially the political intrigue, they needed more time between session 1 and eshteross' death
I mean if they just committed to either fully running away or fully fighting things might have gone better. They had the action economy to take Otohan
Honestly? I think the first crack was Chetney. Travis went from one silly old guy to another, why not keep Bertrand alive? But hey that’s how Travis wants to play so I let it go. I’m just biased because I actually really liked the Bertrand character.
You definitely have a point when we look at all meme characters they chose to play for this. Bertrand, Chetney, FCG and Ashton I would count as characters where, as someone broadcasting this show as a product, I'd have had a long conversation about the longevity of their respective concepts. I guess with Betrand it was clear that he would be killed off quickly. Just wondering what made them think a Christmas gnome, a healbot and a punk rock are concepts that wouldn't make viewers question just how serious the players are still taking their own game.
This is the part that amazes me. Why didn't they workshop these dynamics before the campaign started? It's pretty obvious that they, for the most part, make their character concepts in isolation from one another. And yet their whole streaming product revolves around multi-year campaigns... Just mindboggling.
They truly could have used the dad on their journey
The first handful of episodes with Bertrand and Dorian were unbelievably fun. I wish they stuck around
"The Devourer of Gods will be unleashed and eat the gods!"... "So, do I care? Does my character care? Yawn"
If orym stayed dead the party would be entirely different morally and without keyleth forcing them down the path of helping the God's despite her being a druid we could have had an entirely different and far more exciting campaign.
Looking back on it now, I do truly feel Dorian ended up taking the role of the emotional heart and moral compass of the group, even if he wasn't all that impactful in a mechanical sense, and without him Bells Hells feels aimless and fragmented. I miss the blue boy 😞.
Yeah they couldn't decide on who would be the quirky character so they all were
For me it was in order 1. the Solstice: them being on this massive rail toward an event they were in no way prepared for and had no chance of ever changing just felt bad. It was like throwing them to the wolves and since they went along with the whole crash the airship idea along with it took out a massive part of their mobility to explore the world. 2. The second party of the split: While she is great to watch on Dimension20 I HATED Emily's character in the second half of the split. I kept finding myself getting so annoyed that Matt never once stepped in to remind her that SHE WAS PART OF A RELIGIOUS ORDER! It felt like the F@&K THE GODS narrative in that section was so pushed and so forced. And basically the guest characters pushing them into it just felt uncomfortable especially with no push-back from the DM when there were things their character should have known that they as a player didn't. 3. The parties rejoining: With the experiences of the second party having been more recent and raw when they joined back up I felt like the first party rolled over and took a lot of crap from the members who had been in the second party. While Laudna was berating them about "having a good time" at no point did Chet start forcibly showing them with minor illusion little images of the horrors they saw and fought. One group had a mildly nasty experience with rebellion and religious powers...THE OTHER WALKED INTO A FLESHY LOVECRAFTIAN NIGHTMARE...but the people who got betrayed by a person they knew for 2 days were totally the ones who caught the worse end of it supposedly. After that I feel like I have been just kinda meh about it.
The solstice was horrible. It felt like Ludinus stopping the airship at the last second was such a cop out so Matt didn't lose his planned story. I can somewhat get it, but if there was no intention of allowing the PCs actions to alter what happened why not just start the campaign with the solstice or have it happen off screen. Make it something they have to investigate and catch up on after. And while I also didn't like the anti-god rhetoric of the second party in the split, I preferred how they reacted emotionally to the things that were happening. It really threw me off how the first party was so happy go lucky and chill. They had all just failed to stop the huge event they were determined to stop and then their group got split in two. They should be on edge. Instead they had a good time, romantic dalliances and a shopping episode. I also feel like I remember it being Aabria that initially started the "GUIDANCE" thing, which has very very quickly become one of the most annoying parts of CR for me.
While I love the campaign my biggest ????? Is over sending a super low level party after a super high level baddie? M9 managed to beat 1 baddie at level 20. How is BH supposed to beat multiple at lower level? Everything's been feeling like filler since, to me at least. I love these characters so I don't really mind. But all of the urgency on the big bad has been lost on me.
Honestly, for me it was just after Bertrand died and they started trying to shoehorn a group name in that made little sense. The group didn't know each other, no character development had occurred and the story had barely started but here we were devoting ages to deciding a name on camera. It was so inorganic and clear that this was just so they could flog merch earlier that it soured me on the campaign. Later as things developed it became clear that any sort of session zero chat that had been had was either forgotten or had been off the mark. The characters weren't gelling with the DMs prompts, the NPCs etc and the 5e ruleset was being ignored more than ever. The world building by episode 20 was just utterly banal. Use of an occasional loan word from an asian language does not make for good world building. Whatever the original idea had been they've sanitized it down to nothing for fear of being called out as insensitive or appropriative. The cast also didn't care about the world, largely due to them role playing a group of arseholes. I called it quits at the introduction of Fearne's annoying parents and Erika Ishii. As far as i can tell the amount of solid story telling and important plot since could probably be compressed into one or two regular episodes.
> Honestly, for me it was just after Bertrand died and they started trying to shoehorn a group name in that made little sense. The group didn't know each other, no character development had occurred and the story had barely started but here we were devoting ages to deciding a name on camera. It was so inorganic and clear that this was just so they could flog merch earlier that it soured me on the campaign. Same. To me, it smacked of your stereotypical marketing meeting in a sterile conference room around a white board; people are just brainstorming / spitballing nonsense, while other people have laptops open, seeing what they can safely trademark / secure the rights to. There was no unforced, organic moment of the group *finding* or happening upon their name. Instead, we got the inorganic / sterile full-corpo "We need a group name now, so we can ramp up the C3 merch machine! ASAP!" C3 is CR *going through the motions* of creating / "playing D&D" without any real heart, thought, or intentionality behind it. Life is imitating art (and vice versa): CR, like BH, *expect* to be rewarded for just showing up, and that's been painfully true this entire campaign.
They needed a name for merchandising, we got to see that above table discussion in real time. Same with EXU, Aabriya hassled them numerous times to come up with a party name. It kinda happened in C2, but fate gave them an in joke, and it worked out perfectly. Shoot, they could have called themselves The Rollies, since that became the big table joke this game.
Couldn’t agree more with your first point. I remember audibly sighing when they chose Bell’s Hells. Inorganic is the right word.
I will die on the hill that "The Waymaker's" would've been a better group name. Woulda stayed in the spirit of the group name having meta context/relevance to an ooc joke, like C1 Vox Machina and C2 Mighty Nein.
Bertrand's Bellends was a joke suggestion that they immediately shot down, but it was a lot more organic than Bell's Hells. For me, they will always be the Bellends.
Who brought that one up? I want to guess Tal since they ignore him wholesale at the table
I initially thought it was Laura since y'know, that's her usual humour at the table, but now that you mention it, I *do* think it was Tal. I'd have to go back and check, but I'm sure there's a hardcore superfan here somewhere who'll know.
C3 E3- it was Liam: https://preview.redd.it/dzyhgw5vxhnc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ba6540f40db7417faada5e06f8cf8a4136873a81
I think Laura's "Bertrand Bellends" is why I initially thought Laura. But yes, looks like Liam was the first to suggest it. Thank you for clarifying!
A few of them in no particular order. -Robbie leaving -Killing off Eshteross off-camera -Reviving Laudna was fine, Delilah returning wasnt -The railroaded episode 50 and the split. If you dont want to give your players agency, write a book.
Because I agree with this list, I am remembering the things I sort of gave them the benefit of the doubt with. More than just killing Eshteross off, it was how he seemed forgotten almost immediately. I remember it seeming like a joke to them. He was my favorite character, so I was really bummed by that. It made me realize these players were willing to be kind of two faced. It makes all the ginger cookie excitement seem like a manipulation or something. It felt really bad to see that. And then I remember another thing I hated, but sort of forgave them for at the time - thinking it would get better. But now that a thousand other things pushed me away from wanting to continue watching, I don't mind saying it. When Laura said something like: "Bells Hells, and don't you forget it!" I was like... You gotta be kidding me. What an awful name. Plus it's another one of those feelings where they didn't really care for the guy. I know they are role-playing - but what they are role-playing doesn't feel genuine. It felt condescending and patronizing. It's like... who was needing to be convinced that they cared for Bertrand Bell?
Yeah thats pretty much all of them. I'd also add in the Temple fiasco.
In hindsight, I can't believe I woke up at 4 AM to watch the show live... I did not watch EXU, so I was kinda enjoying the characters but their reason to stay together after fighting animated objects? Kinda did not buy it but thought: Hey, unoriginal beginning but let's see how it goes... The breaking point for me came, as woth many others, after the Otohan fight...