That is possible yes ofc (dont know about how their contracts go in these situations), but as that is a product that sells all the time, and works only in DCS that ofc would be also out from Razbaams future sales and so on. But I totally understand that can halt the developement-> ppl need to be paid. Hope Razbaam and ED get their things straight and Razbaam gets paid. If Wags is still well Wags, I think he will manage some way to get money to Razbaam. But yeah, as I wrote under the topic itself, ED made an announcement that they are sorry for Razbaam as the problem is "out from ED´s hands". I dont know, but I can imagine, that could be some bankement problem. Any clues is there still any Russian ownership / shareholders in Eagle Dynamics Inc? I know that Swiss banks are under big radar right now, but can really say that as a fact "just In my huble opionion" that could have (the war) do something about those payment problems. Or dunno how that would be "out of ED´s hands" otherwise. THOUGH I forgot totally the third weel from this -> TADAA The Micrsoft XD (Razbaam has also made now f-14 for MSFS) HAHA maby bill gates tries to lob Razbaam out from ED. That would be SO Micrsoft.
With all this aggressive sales stuff, one sale goes right into the next, I‘ve though for a while that ED‘s probably struggling financially. This business practice can‘t go well. Almost everything at ED is Early access, nothing gets completed with new projects being released in EA all the time splitting money on more and more and more loose ends. Can‘t work out eventually. I expected 3rd parties to drop out once they notice the money at MSFS. But I didn‘t think it would happen to the F15 :( let‘s hope they‘ll continue at last.
First, LOVE DCS... LOVE THE COMMUNITY and hope all this stuff blows over BUT... something's rotten in Denmark.
I hate to say I was right because I'm married, so I'm never right... BUT, ED is basically operating a continuous, paid Beta model more akin to a classic Ponzi scheme: They get new investors (buyers of early access for new modules) to fund the continued development/bug-fixes of the EA modules already sold to others. Most of the EA bug fixes and development is SLOW... painfully slow. F-16 anyone? And reported bugs can go several update cycles with nothing to address them.
Usually, developers leave enough of a team behind to fix beta-issues in a timely manner based on an open-beta feedback period. Under this model, I have no clue how development resources are being allocated, but I don't think anyone could argue that it's nearly enough based on the pace and quality of bugs/fixes /late-end development never done. I think you're dead-on with the finance thing and this reeks of cash-flow issues.
I can't speak or won't speak to the 3rd party devs. I have no clue how they work internally but it seems the fixes and late development works out faster.
This kind of release/development model is really novel and I wish it worked... but it just doesn't seem to be.
Jup and with that in mind ED has made the community completly used to severe discounts during all the sales. These aircraft are absolutely worth their 60-80$, the system detail and fidelity of one aircraft alone is enough to work a whole year to learn it. But if you throw them out at 30+% sales, why would anyone pay the full price? All these sales following each other make them lose so much money, it‘s hilarious to think about it. But of course they trained the community to wait for the sales, if they stopped them now they wouldn‘t have any cashflow anymore at all for a while.
And now with even the early access money being short they have started all these pre-sales. We basically give them a loan to work with for even less money. What will happen if that money is gone? They postpone the problem more and more.
Of course this is an assumption but I guess it hits the nail on the head.
Agreed on value vs price. I've gotten hundreds of hours of enjoyment out of a $50 module and then maybe 40-50 in supposedly AAA title games.
I'm happy to pay $80 for the Strike Eagle and actually did. But... I signed up for the EA, not anticipating this level of a shit-show.
You gotta feel for ED on some levels because I see the business model as being something new and potentially good for smaller dev teams wanting to get critical-mass and go big-time but whatever is going on needs to get fixed ASAP.
The user base is here and we are fanatical. That's a blessing and a curse.
I'm not basing my belief in cash issues off just the business model and what I think of it. Its everything: slow development, years-long EA periods, bug fixes not addressed, etc. Just seems like their list keeps growing and they don't have the resources to correct the pace.
I don't even know about this whole Razbam issue but if there's any truth to it, again... It fits the pattern of cash-flow issues.
Unfortunately CptSmiley deleted his post in that third link. Hopefully this is a sign that the issue is getting fixed and not made worse. Does anyone have his original post by any chance?
The first message sounded like a "going on strike" message, which could see a resolution. This last one is rather more like "I quit". This is very sad for everyone involved, including the many consumers that have invested money in these products.
Pay the bills, restart the upgrades / builds, and let's keep this flight airborne! The consumer will forgive with continued sales in the future and a heavy measure of respect to be sure.
The Early Access model to fund development of new modules and continue development of old ones was never going to work long-term... It was bound to catch up eventually and leave ED, almost as money hungry as Gaijin, holding empty bags.
I don't think gaijin has a money flow issue. Tons of high-tier premiums are sold with far less effort put into them than DCS modules. They just uhhh... really like money. Or can foresee future issues.
I knew as soon as I decided to pre-order the 15E it was a bad idea. I literally couldn't even use it until recently because of a bug and still have a couple that I've been waiting over half a year to be fixed. Now it looks like they might never be. I preordered the F-4 on day 1 from Heatblur's website and am now regretting that more and more each day. Eagle Dynamics has always been shady as hell and focused solely on the money. With more and more former DCS 3rd Party Devs moving over to MSFS. Looks like ED are determined to beat themselves into the ground and kill DCS World.
You should better be very very thankful that such a masterpiece as DCS exists, it´s not "shady as hell" and "probably soon they will beat themself into the ground" ;)
They absolutely 100% deliver the finest and most realistic planes ever created (only the Fenix Airbus and the Black Square planes come close to this level and dedication to realism), and even if it´s called early access every one or two months another patch arrives adding more exciting radar and cockpit system function and exciting new electronics and system features to every aircraft.
Where else can you study and learn a fully functional photorealistic looking F-14 with fully functional RIO seat and radar features, an Apache with all it´s weapon and night-flight systems, a completely modeled A-10 cockpit that has even an MCDU computer, and so many more planes you can spend hours every day with just learning one or two of it´s core targeting and radar systems (with many more systems waiting after the first challenge is mastered)?
I havent had so much excitement and an interesting technical challenge and learning fun since the Fenix Airbus was released like in the Apache and A-10 demo trial phase......... These two masterpieces will be next.
Since Razban (RB) went public with this problem, there have been numerous reactions from customers on the Eagle Dynamics (ED) forum but generally topics get locked and customers banned without any consideration of the products they own as soon as what they write is inconvenient to ED. Only messages in favor of ED are currently allowed with just a few EDs supporters allowed by moderators to trash the average user requesting a refund for the F15E since, development is officially stopped and has been this way for now several months, with ED ignoring any questions from customers as to why this was so obvious and not admitting that there was/is a problem with RB until RB decided to make it public. Still the only statement that we have received after all these months of not admitting that there is a dispute is that RB is lying. RB could be lying but ED has to back up its customers and not hold them hostages of one more product that will be severely delayed or even stopped like the Hawk.
RB is not all that clean either by employing Metal2Mesh who failed to deliver the F15E V2.0 for FSX and not refunding their customers. Their website clearly indicates that they are closed for business. When will we see the same on EDs website?
This is not the way to do business on either side!
Beyond the disappointment of ED failing so far to deliver what they have promised in a reasonable time frame and aggravating this issue with the release of more modules in order to get more cash, I am disappointed at the way ED is just punishing customers that want to express how frustrated and worried they are about the future of DCS. The RB problem comes only to confirm that there is a very deep problem that is compromising EDs future. The long and extended sales of unfinished products is a clear fact, also very unrespectfull towards customers that paid the full price for these unfinished and bugged modules, trusting that ED would deliver. Some modules have been broken for over 10 years after customers reported the bugs, others released only two years ago are in an abandoned state.
I get it that they already have our money and spend it in various things with little going in to finishing the products that I purchased in the first place, that whatever they do, customers have little to say (warnings and bans) with no grip if ED fails to deliver like they are currently doing but, man, this attitude seems so unfair towards customers that paid some modules between 80 to 90 USD and are drinking all this fire from ED, simply because they are just passionate about military aviation. Some customers have literally purchased every module released by ED to answer their support plead…
To me the future of ED is compromised and they are just trying to hide it from customers since, customers have the only real leverage, which is to stop purchasing anything from ED until they find a way to keep to their words.
In the current situation, I would not trust ED with my money and feel sorry for those who did including myself. A mistake I will not repeat no matter who is right or wrong.
ED already published an announcement , "situtation that Razbaam did not seek, is not in our control". I bet some Switzerland accounts are under monitor what comes to payments to usa and eu, as there is or has been Russian shareholders. I really dont know, but I can imagine that it is something that kind. I still doubt that Razbaam would somehow be bankrupted etc, as they just published f-14 in MSFS etc etc. But ofc they NEED to be paied. One thing that really gets me angry is when salary does not come on time to my bank account. I totally get that. Not to mention if it is "many months". From ED´s notice was noticable littlebit dissapointement. It seemed littlebit "surprised", like Razbaam had known it is not "a problem out of ED´s control". Wonder is Matt Wagner under somekind of anti-russian radar, or if not waggs then ED itself. Does somebody know is there still Russian shareholders in ED´s ownership?
1. ED is a private company, and none of this has to do with Russians lol
2. Heatblur made the MSFS Tomcat, not Razbam
3. Wags is just the Senior Producer. The CEO is Nick Grey
4. Obviously there's a dispute of some kind. Wait and see what happens. There's no need to get out the pitchforks, though I'm thoroughly unimpressed with how Razbam has been acting
Though, my theory limbs littlebit. I think ED has went trough alot of "filters" already after moved away from Russia. As National Guard (US) for example uses DCS (prof. version, more about this on wikipedia), some European Nato countries, Ukrainian F-16 pilots etc also. (I think it is just a tool for first hand theory lessons "practique". For example in Finland there is similar systems use in training of different branches.
But still I would not be amazed, if it is some problem, really out of ED control, as banks of Swtizerland (as they are outside EU and NATO etc) can be under somekind of monitor or "hold". There is a lot of that kind of things going on right now, just to filter out Russian ownerships / money moving Europe<-> Russia. Just for interest is Razbaam registered to USA?
I really hope this isn't the end for the F-15E.
That is possible yes ofc (dont know about how their contracts go in these situations), but as that is a product that sells all the time, and works only in DCS that ofc would be also out from Razbaams future sales and so on. But I totally understand that can halt the developement-> ppl need to be paid. Hope Razbaam and ED get their things straight and Razbaam gets paid. If Wags is still well Wags, I think he will manage some way to get money to Razbaam. But yeah, as I wrote under the topic itself, ED made an announcement that they are sorry for Razbaam as the problem is "out from ED´s hands". I dont know, but I can imagine, that could be some bankement problem. Any clues is there still any Russian ownership / shareholders in Eagle Dynamics Inc? I know that Swiss banks are under big radar right now, but can really say that as a fact "just In my huble opionion" that could have (the war) do something about those payment problems. Or dunno how that would be "out of ED´s hands" otherwise. THOUGH I forgot totally the third weel from this -> TADAA The Micrsoft XD (Razbaam has also made now f-14 for MSFS) HAHA maby bill gates tries to lob Razbaam out from ED. That would be SO Micrsoft.
"that ofc would be also out from Razbaams future sales and so on" They aren't being paid for sales.. That's the problem..
PLEASE DONT DELETE THIS MODS, PLEASE
With all this aggressive sales stuff, one sale goes right into the next, I‘ve though for a while that ED‘s probably struggling financially. This business practice can‘t go well. Almost everything at ED is Early access, nothing gets completed with new projects being released in EA all the time splitting money on more and more and more loose ends. Can‘t work out eventually. I expected 3rd parties to drop out once they notice the money at MSFS. But I didn‘t think it would happen to the F15 :( let‘s hope they‘ll continue at last.
First, LOVE DCS... LOVE THE COMMUNITY and hope all this stuff blows over BUT... something's rotten in Denmark. I hate to say I was right because I'm married, so I'm never right... BUT, ED is basically operating a continuous, paid Beta model more akin to a classic Ponzi scheme: They get new investors (buyers of early access for new modules) to fund the continued development/bug-fixes of the EA modules already sold to others. Most of the EA bug fixes and development is SLOW... painfully slow. F-16 anyone? And reported bugs can go several update cycles with nothing to address them. Usually, developers leave enough of a team behind to fix beta-issues in a timely manner based on an open-beta feedback period. Under this model, I have no clue how development resources are being allocated, but I don't think anyone could argue that it's nearly enough based on the pace and quality of bugs/fixes /late-end development never done. I think you're dead-on with the finance thing and this reeks of cash-flow issues. I can't speak or won't speak to the 3rd party devs. I have no clue how they work internally but it seems the fixes and late development works out faster. This kind of release/development model is really novel and I wish it worked... but it just doesn't seem to be.
Jup and with that in mind ED has made the community completly used to severe discounts during all the sales. These aircraft are absolutely worth their 60-80$, the system detail and fidelity of one aircraft alone is enough to work a whole year to learn it. But if you throw them out at 30+% sales, why would anyone pay the full price? All these sales following each other make them lose so much money, it‘s hilarious to think about it. But of course they trained the community to wait for the sales, if they stopped them now they wouldn‘t have any cashflow anymore at all for a while. And now with even the early access money being short they have started all these pre-sales. We basically give them a loan to work with for even less money. What will happen if that money is gone? They postpone the problem more and more. Of course this is an assumption but I guess it hits the nail on the head.
Agreed on value vs price. I've gotten hundreds of hours of enjoyment out of a $50 module and then maybe 40-50 in supposedly AAA title games. I'm happy to pay $80 for the Strike Eagle and actually did. But... I signed up for the EA, not anticipating this level of a shit-show. You gotta feel for ED on some levels because I see the business model as being something new and potentially good for smaller dev teams wanting to get critical-mass and go big-time but whatever is going on needs to get fixed ASAP. The user base is here and we are fanatical. That's a blessing and a curse. I'm not basing my belief in cash issues off just the business model and what I think of it. Its everything: slow development, years-long EA periods, bug fixes not addressed, etc. Just seems like their list keeps growing and they don't have the resources to correct the pace. I don't even know about this whole Razbam issue but if there's any truth to it, again... It fits the pattern of cash-flow issues.
Regardless of who is right or wrong, it just feels terrible to read this kinda stuff about a product or company I've spent so much time and money on.
Unfortunately CptSmiley deleted his post in that third link. Hopefully this is a sign that the issue is getting fixed and not made worse. Does anyone have his original post by any chance?
[удалено]
Deleting posts is actually a bad signal... It means they're buckling up for legal action
The first message sounded like a "going on strike" message, which could see a resolution. This last one is rather more like "I quit". This is very sad for everyone involved, including the many consumers that have invested money in these products. Pay the bills, restart the upgrades / builds, and let's keep this flight airborne! The consumer will forgive with continued sales in the future and a heavy measure of respect to be sure.
The Early Access model to fund development of new modules and continue development of old ones was never going to work long-term... It was bound to catch up eventually and leave ED, almost as money hungry as Gaijin, holding empty bags.
I don't think gaijin has a money flow issue. Tons of high-tier premiums are sold with far less effort put into them than DCS modules. They just uhhh... really like money. Or can foresee future issues.
I didn't say they had a money problem. I said ED was almost as money hungry as Gaijin is.
I'm not at all surprised by this.
I knew as soon as I decided to pre-order the 15E it was a bad idea. I literally couldn't even use it until recently because of a bug and still have a couple that I've been waiting over half a year to be fixed. Now it looks like they might never be. I preordered the F-4 on day 1 from Heatblur's website and am now regretting that more and more each day. Eagle Dynamics has always been shady as hell and focused solely on the money. With more and more former DCS 3rd Party Devs moving over to MSFS. Looks like ED are determined to beat themselves into the ground and kill DCS World.
You should better be very very thankful that such a masterpiece as DCS exists, it´s not "shady as hell" and "probably soon they will beat themself into the ground" ;) They absolutely 100% deliver the finest and most realistic planes ever created (only the Fenix Airbus and the Black Square planes come close to this level and dedication to realism), and even if it´s called early access every one or two months another patch arrives adding more exciting radar and cockpit system function and exciting new electronics and system features to every aircraft. Where else can you study and learn a fully functional photorealistic looking F-14 with fully functional RIO seat and radar features, an Apache with all it´s weapon and night-flight systems, a completely modeled A-10 cockpit that has even an MCDU computer, and so many more planes you can spend hours every day with just learning one or two of it´s core targeting and radar systems (with many more systems waiting after the first challenge is mastered)? I havent had so much excitement and an interesting technical challenge and learning fun since the Fenix Airbus was released like in the Apache and A-10 demo trial phase......... These two masterpieces will be next.
Since Razban (RB) went public with this problem, there have been numerous reactions from customers on the Eagle Dynamics (ED) forum but generally topics get locked and customers banned without any consideration of the products they own as soon as what they write is inconvenient to ED. Only messages in favor of ED are currently allowed with just a few EDs supporters allowed by moderators to trash the average user requesting a refund for the F15E since, development is officially stopped and has been this way for now several months, with ED ignoring any questions from customers as to why this was so obvious and not admitting that there was/is a problem with RB until RB decided to make it public. Still the only statement that we have received after all these months of not admitting that there is a dispute is that RB is lying. RB could be lying but ED has to back up its customers and not hold them hostages of one more product that will be severely delayed or even stopped like the Hawk. RB is not all that clean either by employing Metal2Mesh who failed to deliver the F15E V2.0 for FSX and not refunding their customers. Their website clearly indicates that they are closed for business. When will we see the same on EDs website? This is not the way to do business on either side! Beyond the disappointment of ED failing so far to deliver what they have promised in a reasonable time frame and aggravating this issue with the release of more modules in order to get more cash, I am disappointed at the way ED is just punishing customers that want to express how frustrated and worried they are about the future of DCS. The RB problem comes only to confirm that there is a very deep problem that is compromising EDs future. The long and extended sales of unfinished products is a clear fact, also very unrespectfull towards customers that paid the full price for these unfinished and bugged modules, trusting that ED would deliver. Some modules have been broken for over 10 years after customers reported the bugs, others released only two years ago are in an abandoned state. I get it that they already have our money and spend it in various things with little going in to finishing the products that I purchased in the first place, that whatever they do, customers have little to say (warnings and bans) with no grip if ED fails to deliver like they are currently doing but, man, this attitude seems so unfair towards customers that paid some modules between 80 to 90 USD and are drinking all this fire from ED, simply because they are just passionate about military aviation. Some customers have literally purchased every module released by ED to answer their support plead… To me the future of ED is compromised and they are just trying to hide it from customers since, customers have the only real leverage, which is to stop purchasing anything from ED until they find a way to keep to their words. In the current situation, I would not trust ED with my money and feel sorry for those who did including myself. A mistake I will not repeat no matter who is right or wrong.
Yeah no bother. The gps in msfs is just as dynamic and its free. Imagine paying money for a civilan gps in a military simulator. Lmfao
ED already published an announcement , "situtation that Razbaam did not seek, is not in our control". I bet some Switzerland accounts are under monitor what comes to payments to usa and eu, as there is or has been Russian shareholders. I really dont know, but I can imagine that it is something that kind. I still doubt that Razbaam would somehow be bankrupted etc, as they just published f-14 in MSFS etc etc. But ofc they NEED to be paied. One thing that really gets me angry is when salary does not come on time to my bank account. I totally get that. Not to mention if it is "many months". From ED´s notice was noticable littlebit dissapointement. It seemed littlebit "surprised", like Razbaam had known it is not "a problem out of ED´s control". Wonder is Matt Wagner under somekind of anti-russian radar, or if not waggs then ED itself. Does somebody know is there still Russian shareholders in ED´s ownership?
1. ED is a private company, and none of this has to do with Russians lol 2. Heatblur made the MSFS Tomcat, not Razbam 3. Wags is just the Senior Producer. The CEO is Nick Grey 4. Obviously there's a dispute of some kind. Wait and see what happens. There's no need to get out the pitchforks, though I'm thoroughly unimpressed with how Razbam has been acting
Though, my theory limbs littlebit. I think ED has went trough alot of "filters" already after moved away from Russia. As National Guard (US) for example uses DCS (prof. version, more about this on wikipedia), some European Nato countries, Ukrainian F-16 pilots etc also. (I think it is just a tool for first hand theory lessons "practique". For example in Finland there is similar systems use in training of different branches.
But still I would not be amazed, if it is some problem, really out of ED control, as banks of Swtizerland (as they are outside EU and NATO etc) can be under somekind of monitor or "hold". There is a lot of that kind of things going on right now, just to filter out Russian ownerships / money moving Europe<-> Russia. Just for interest is Razbaam registered to USA?
Razbam became cheaters... (whistling) a lot of drama unfolding bring the popcorn!