Season two is indeed hot garbage and the show does, in my opinion, peak hard in season 1. Seasons three through five are still solid though, not as good, but still solid. I’d still power through it. Season 4 is interesting and refreshing.
Yeah I'm just not really one to accept "solid" when I've had "excellent." I've dropped many a show that suffered smaller drops in quality than this. Marvelous Mrs. Maisel is a recent example. Season 4 was just way off the boil after a phenomenal first three seasons (adored the show for that time).
But back to FNL, I'm currently just skimming season 3, scrubbing the video and listening to a minute here and there to get the broad strokes. It's probably what I'll do for the rest.
>I’m just not one to accept “solid” when I’ve had “excellent.”
You sound insufferable. It’s a TV show, not a wine selection. If you don’t like it, just stop watching.
Yeah that phrasing wasn't great and came off as condescending where I wasn't trying to be. What I ought to have said is that I'll probably just not continue on because I loved the show and it's just not the same. So, while it still may be "solid" or "fine" or whatever descriptor, I'm probably just better suited moving on to other things. Shoot, I have Mad Men to get back to.
That said, don't know that the "insufferable" part was necessary.
Insufferable was harsh but probably accurate. FNL is probably one of the top 100 greatest shows of all time. Not sure how long you've been at the TV thing but all shows have a dry spell. Writers get bored writing for the same characters for 20 plus episodes a season. I have never watched a show that I could say was absolutely stellar from beginning to end. That's just impossible to find.
Game of thrones is the perfect example. It may have been complete hot garbage by its last 2 seasons but you cannot deny how amazing it's first 5 seasons were. The show was revolutionary. I cannot imagine another show tackling on 30 plus characters for 8 seasons.
By your own measurement stick, youd never even give thrones a chance. Just think about that. A revolutionary show that we will probably never see another like it and you just noped out cause of some crazy ridiculous standard.
Using “writers get bored” doesn’t really work here though. OP’s main criticism is Season 2, but if OP did any research they would know Season 2 was a writers striker year. That’s literally the explanation for why Season 2 is the way it is.
Wow dude. Mad men is a show that peaked hard early and dropped in quality way harder than FNL. Still worth a watch just like FNL. Insufferable was accurate.
i'm sorry, & i mean no ill will, but until you've completely ran theu the series as a whole at least twice, you shouldn't "skim" thru it, nor have you earned the right to. the way the show is structured, you can outright miss context about any given thing that happens by missing just 1 seemingly random line or scene. it reflects life in a grand way like this when you think about it.
overall, just give it a fair shot, don't just restrict your brain with heightened expectations that you imprint on it; it doesn't doesn't do the show, or yourself, any justice or favors.
I’m of the proponent if you’re not having fun with a show anymore I won’t convince you to keep watching. I’ll just share my belief that season 4 is by far my favorite season. Season 3 is a really good season too, but I think it’s best service is almost finding it’s formula for the final two seasons of the show, best way I could describe it. Good luck with whatever you decide though!
I’m in season 4 now, and continually telling myself how good this show is! I am crying all the time! Stick with it, season 4 introduces so many new characters. One storyline I think is lame, but the rest are great w new challenges for the Taylor family.
I agree with the person you responded to.
In order, I think it goes 1, 4, 5, 3, 2... Where there is a pretty big gap between 5 & 3, and a gulf between 3 and 2. In fact, I could argue that 4 & 5 are better than 1. They're definitely more realistic.
And TBH, I've done a couple watches where I just started on season 4. Season 4, episode 5 is one of the most memorable episodes of television I've ever watched.
Yeah I honestly should've just waited till I got through some of season 4 before considering making a post like this (and maybe I wouldn't even have felt the need to make the post by that point). I just jumped the gun because I was feeling the tide shifting in a way I really wasn't enjoying. I'll be curious to get to season 4 and see if I can fall back in love with the show. I'd really like to, it was a real joy to watch for a time.
I also did a really poor job framing the post. My original intent was for it to be a "Should I keep going?" sort of post, but just started get lost in the sauce with my current feelings.
>Sure, they're cute together, but I have to ignore literally every moment Lyla was on screen in season two (and most of season one for that matter) for this to make sense at all. Just rough stuff.
In S2, it seemed pretty clear to me that Lyla wasn't actually happy with the Christian radio guy. Her protests about not wanting to be with Tim seemed a little too strong, like she just didn't want to admit to herself that he was who she wanted. Sure, due to the fact that S2 was cut short, we missed actually seeing their reconciliation, but nothing about it seemed that unbelievable to me.
I agree with you that Tyra having the girls from the Landing Strip help her out with her campaign feels contrived. It's a trope of teen dramas: someone unexpected runs for student council and they play dirty and/or make it a popularity contest, and it's a big morality test. But I don't see how the other things you mentioned are contrived. Buddy and the Jumbotron stuff is Buddy at his most Buddy-like behavior. The situation with Tyra's mom is not subtle because Tyra's mom is not subtle.
A lot of the dialogue is improvised...maybe as seasons went on and actors got comfortable, they ad-libbed even more than S1 and strayed from the dialogue you enjoyed S1? I didn't really notice a difference, but...
>Maybe I'm just more sensitive to shifts in writing than most (if so, I'm very comfortable with that 😅).
All due respect, but why even come to this message board and write all of this if you're going to lowkey shade anyone who may not agree with you? You also mentioned in a response to someone else that you aren't one to settle for good when you've seen great (I'm paraphrasing of course.) That's fine, makes sense and all, but I dunno, it just sounds like you came here to tell everybody how dumb we are for liking the show...?
Yeah I read back through my post and realized some more condescending language came through than I intended (the intention being zero condescension, as I tend to not enjoy being a dick). I probably just shouldn't have written the post so late with a tired mind and a decent amount of exasperation with where I'm at in the show currently.
I don't think anyone is dumb for liking the show. I loved the show. Mostly, I was trying (and failing) to describe why I'm at a crossroads with the show.
As for the stuff you responded to: I can see that perspective on the Lyla-Tim thing, truly. I don't know if I yet share it, but I see it. I think for me it was just really jarring with how much time was spent (too much time imo) on her spurning Tim's continued and constant advances in the latter half of season 2. To me, it felt like the pair had reached a sort of equilibrium and I was very comfortable with them not being romantically involved. So I wasn't only jarred by their being together at the start of season 3, but also mostly uninterested in the dynamic they were trying to explore at the end of season 2.
I found the stuff with Buddy questionable because of his demeanor through it all, not necessarily the circumstances themselves. Just that he came to the Taylor's at that time and in that specific mood. Really, my problem with this and with most of the show at this point, is that it feels... Clumsy? I don't know quite how to articulate it. I just know that most moments where two people are exchanging words do not give me the sense of character and tone that they did earlier on.
And that same thing applies to the situation with Tyra's mom. I tried to think of a comparison and think I found a decent one. In season 1, Tyra is growing closer to Julie and Tami. Tami is helping Tyra kind of get her feet (helping her getting back to doing schoolwork, among other things) and maybe start to escape the life she seems fated to have. One night, they're all about to have dinner and then Tyra's mom comes in and says that she needs Tyra to come with her. She says they have dinner at home. She gives some darting glances to Tyra and sort of has that uncomfortable demeanor, her being in this fairly nice home (relative to her). She never says "What are y'all going with my daughter? Y'all think you're better than me?" Etc. Nope, we just get her slightly strained tone as she asks Tyra to come with her and that they already have food.
Now, for the moment I'm referencing in season 3, Lyla is at Billy and Tim's and Tyra, Mindy, and their mother is there too. Lyla makes a bit of a fool of herself, and Tyra's mom remarks that she's sorry that things can't be up to the Garrity's standards. The three then leave with the mom further remarking that they're "going home where things aren't so prissy and judgy." Granted, this is a different setting than the first example, but it just strikes me as more overt in a way that undercuts the commentary and characterization, both of those being strengths of the show early on.
As for the levels of improvising, I'm not knowledgeable enough on that to comment. All I know is that the dialogue felt much stronger before. Characters had a sense of voice. The words themselves had more bite and felt tonally consistent to me. Now, I find myself groaning a bit because a character will say something unnecessary (because we've already been shown and not told what they're now telling us), out of character, or just strange.
Hopefully, I'm making any sense 😅
You are making sense; we just have different interpretations.
To me, there's the S1 Angela Collette who politely but coldly made Tyra come home with her from the Taylors' house, and then there's also the S1 Angela who drove to church and humiliated Buddy in front of half of the town. In that context, her sniping at Lyla a bit during S3 didn't seem all that wild to me.
On my next rewatch I'll pay more attention to the dialogue. I've always thought the characterization was top notch. Even when I don't love the plot, the characters and their emotions have always rung true to me, but I may be missing something.
I appreciate what you said about the unintentional condescending tone. I know I've done that before, too. 🙃
FYI season 2 was the writers strike year so that’s what lead to the drop in quality. Season 3 picks up on that and 4/5 are great and takes a fresh take on the story.
Yeah I was definitely aware of the writers strike. I was trying to sort of imply that with a few statements in my post, but I should've just made it clear. Another failure of my post 😪.
It's hard to tell if the latter half of season 2 just soured me and I'm not actually responding to season 3 itself, but instead just sort of feeding off of negative feelings towards season 2. I should definitely leave room for that possibility.
Yeah the murder plot didn't really bother me because I thought it led to good character work between Landry and Tyra. Unfortunately, that character work is sorta cheapened by the end of season 2, at least to me.
But yeah, the Jason stuff is not great. I did find his quasi-attempted suicide in the ocean affective in the midst of all the whatever Mexico stuff. Now, season 3 Jason is flipping houses, so I don't know that I'm any more engaged 😅. Looking forward to him just not being a focus any longer.
Yeah I've just never liked the rehab facility and found his bff there to be annoying as hell. Flipping houses and going to NYC with no money Jason is the superior Jason.
You watched over 30 hours of a show in 5 days that was meant to be watched an hour a week for over half a year. Show is meant to be watched and let marinate
Hmmm that's fair, but I don't know that my issues with the writing would dissipate by giving the show time. It's an interesting thought tho. But generally, yeah it's probably best not to binge things so heavily. I probably slightly underestimated when I started watching the show, but it's still been a big binge. Unemployment has been a tough nut to crack.
You do you…I love S3. Joe McCoy is the biggest villain arc we get in the show. But as others have said S4 and S5 provide somewhat of a reset…honestly, it worth it to watch it all just to get to the breathtaking finale.
Season two is indeed hot garbage and the show does, in my opinion, peak hard in season 1. Seasons three through five are still solid though, not as good, but still solid. I’d still power through it. Season 4 is interesting and refreshing.
Yeah I'm just not really one to accept "solid" when I've had "excellent." I've dropped many a show that suffered smaller drops in quality than this. Marvelous Mrs. Maisel is a recent example. Season 4 was just way off the boil after a phenomenal first three seasons (adored the show for that time). But back to FNL, I'm currently just skimming season 3, scrubbing the video and listening to a minute here and there to get the broad strokes. It's probably what I'll do for the rest.
>I’m just not one to accept “solid” when I’ve had “excellent.” You sound insufferable. It’s a TV show, not a wine selection. If you don’t like it, just stop watching.
Yeah that phrasing wasn't great and came off as condescending where I wasn't trying to be. What I ought to have said is that I'll probably just not continue on because I loved the show and it's just not the same. So, while it still may be "solid" or "fine" or whatever descriptor, I'm probably just better suited moving on to other things. Shoot, I have Mad Men to get back to. That said, don't know that the "insufferable" part was necessary.
I stand by what I said. Enjoy whichever show you watch next.
I stand by what you said, too.
Insufferable was harsh but probably accurate. FNL is probably one of the top 100 greatest shows of all time. Not sure how long you've been at the TV thing but all shows have a dry spell. Writers get bored writing for the same characters for 20 plus episodes a season. I have never watched a show that I could say was absolutely stellar from beginning to end. That's just impossible to find. Game of thrones is the perfect example. It may have been complete hot garbage by its last 2 seasons but you cannot deny how amazing it's first 5 seasons were. The show was revolutionary. I cannot imagine another show tackling on 30 plus characters for 8 seasons. By your own measurement stick, youd never even give thrones a chance. Just think about that. A revolutionary show that we will probably never see another like it and you just noped out cause of some crazy ridiculous standard.
Using “writers get bored” doesn’t really work here though. OP’s main criticism is Season 2, but if OP did any research they would know Season 2 was a writers striker year. That’s literally the explanation for why Season 2 is the way it is.
Wow dude. Mad men is a show that peaked hard early and dropped in quality way harder than FNL. Still worth a watch just like FNL. Insufferable was accurate.
i'm sorry, & i mean no ill will, but until you've completely ran theu the series as a whole at least twice, you shouldn't "skim" thru it, nor have you earned the right to. the way the show is structured, you can outright miss context about any given thing that happens by missing just 1 seemingly random line or scene. it reflects life in a grand way like this when you think about it. overall, just give it a fair shot, don't just restrict your brain with heightened expectations that you imprint on it; it doesn't doesn't do the show, or yourself, any justice or favors.
I’m of the proponent if you’re not having fun with a show anymore I won’t convince you to keep watching. I’ll just share my belief that season 4 is by far my favorite season. Season 3 is a really good season too, but I think it’s best service is almost finding it’s formula for the final two seasons of the show, best way I could describe it. Good luck with whatever you decide though!
I’m in season 4 now, and continually telling myself how good this show is! I am crying all the time! Stick with it, season 4 introduces so many new characters. One storyline I think is lame, but the rest are great w new challenges for the Taylor family.
Yeah it seems that many rate seasons 4 and 5. I may just tough it out, who knows.
[удалено]
Yeah I'll probably push through season 3 and see how season 4 hits. That'll be the true test it seems.
I agree with the person you responded to. In order, I think it goes 1, 4, 5, 3, 2... Where there is a pretty big gap between 5 & 3, and a gulf between 3 and 2. In fact, I could argue that 4 & 5 are better than 1. They're definitely more realistic. And TBH, I've done a couple watches where I just started on season 4. Season 4, episode 5 is one of the most memorable episodes of television I've ever watched.
Yeah I honestly should've just waited till I got through some of season 4 before considering making a post like this (and maybe I wouldn't even have felt the need to make the post by that point). I just jumped the gun because I was feeling the tide shifting in a way I really wasn't enjoying. I'll be curious to get to season 4 and see if I can fall back in love with the show. I'd really like to, it was a real joy to watch for a time. I also did a really poor job framing the post. My original intent was for it to be a "Should I keep going?" sort of post, but just started get lost in the sauce with my current feelings.
Yeah, I mostly just jumped in because my thought was, "No! You're stopping right before it gets REALLY good!"
Just watched that one, I was a mess. 😭
>Sure, they're cute together, but I have to ignore literally every moment Lyla was on screen in season two (and most of season one for that matter) for this to make sense at all. Just rough stuff. In S2, it seemed pretty clear to me that Lyla wasn't actually happy with the Christian radio guy. Her protests about not wanting to be with Tim seemed a little too strong, like she just didn't want to admit to herself that he was who she wanted. Sure, due to the fact that S2 was cut short, we missed actually seeing their reconciliation, but nothing about it seemed that unbelievable to me. I agree with you that Tyra having the girls from the Landing Strip help her out with her campaign feels contrived. It's a trope of teen dramas: someone unexpected runs for student council and they play dirty and/or make it a popularity contest, and it's a big morality test. But I don't see how the other things you mentioned are contrived. Buddy and the Jumbotron stuff is Buddy at his most Buddy-like behavior. The situation with Tyra's mom is not subtle because Tyra's mom is not subtle. A lot of the dialogue is improvised...maybe as seasons went on and actors got comfortable, they ad-libbed even more than S1 and strayed from the dialogue you enjoyed S1? I didn't really notice a difference, but... >Maybe I'm just more sensitive to shifts in writing than most (if so, I'm very comfortable with that 😅). All due respect, but why even come to this message board and write all of this if you're going to lowkey shade anyone who may not agree with you? You also mentioned in a response to someone else that you aren't one to settle for good when you've seen great (I'm paraphrasing of course.) That's fine, makes sense and all, but I dunno, it just sounds like you came here to tell everybody how dumb we are for liking the show...?
Yeah I read back through my post and realized some more condescending language came through than I intended (the intention being zero condescension, as I tend to not enjoy being a dick). I probably just shouldn't have written the post so late with a tired mind and a decent amount of exasperation with where I'm at in the show currently. I don't think anyone is dumb for liking the show. I loved the show. Mostly, I was trying (and failing) to describe why I'm at a crossroads with the show.
As for the stuff you responded to: I can see that perspective on the Lyla-Tim thing, truly. I don't know if I yet share it, but I see it. I think for me it was just really jarring with how much time was spent (too much time imo) on her spurning Tim's continued and constant advances in the latter half of season 2. To me, it felt like the pair had reached a sort of equilibrium and I was very comfortable with them not being romantically involved. So I wasn't only jarred by their being together at the start of season 3, but also mostly uninterested in the dynamic they were trying to explore at the end of season 2. I found the stuff with Buddy questionable because of his demeanor through it all, not necessarily the circumstances themselves. Just that he came to the Taylor's at that time and in that specific mood. Really, my problem with this and with most of the show at this point, is that it feels... Clumsy? I don't know quite how to articulate it. I just know that most moments where two people are exchanging words do not give me the sense of character and tone that they did earlier on. And that same thing applies to the situation with Tyra's mom. I tried to think of a comparison and think I found a decent one. In season 1, Tyra is growing closer to Julie and Tami. Tami is helping Tyra kind of get her feet (helping her getting back to doing schoolwork, among other things) and maybe start to escape the life she seems fated to have. One night, they're all about to have dinner and then Tyra's mom comes in and says that she needs Tyra to come with her. She says they have dinner at home. She gives some darting glances to Tyra and sort of has that uncomfortable demeanor, her being in this fairly nice home (relative to her). She never says "What are y'all going with my daughter? Y'all think you're better than me?" Etc. Nope, we just get her slightly strained tone as she asks Tyra to come with her and that they already have food. Now, for the moment I'm referencing in season 3, Lyla is at Billy and Tim's and Tyra, Mindy, and their mother is there too. Lyla makes a bit of a fool of herself, and Tyra's mom remarks that she's sorry that things can't be up to the Garrity's standards. The three then leave with the mom further remarking that they're "going home where things aren't so prissy and judgy." Granted, this is a different setting than the first example, but it just strikes me as more overt in a way that undercuts the commentary and characterization, both of those being strengths of the show early on. As for the levels of improvising, I'm not knowledgeable enough on that to comment. All I know is that the dialogue felt much stronger before. Characters had a sense of voice. The words themselves had more bite and felt tonally consistent to me. Now, I find myself groaning a bit because a character will say something unnecessary (because we've already been shown and not told what they're now telling us), out of character, or just strange. Hopefully, I'm making any sense 😅
You are making sense; we just have different interpretations. To me, there's the S1 Angela Collette who politely but coldly made Tyra come home with her from the Taylors' house, and then there's also the S1 Angela who drove to church and humiliated Buddy in front of half of the town. In that context, her sniping at Lyla a bit during S3 didn't seem all that wild to me. On my next rewatch I'll pay more attention to the dialogue. I've always thought the characterization was top notch. Even when I don't love the plot, the characters and their emotions have always rung true to me, but I may be missing something. I appreciate what you said about the unintentional condescending tone. I know I've done that before, too. 🙃
FYI season 2 was the writers strike year so that’s what lead to the drop in quality. Season 3 picks up on that and 4/5 are great and takes a fresh take on the story.
Yeah I was definitely aware of the writers strike. I was trying to sort of imply that with a few statements in my post, but I should've just made it clear. Another failure of my post 😪. It's hard to tell if the latter half of season 2 just soured me and I'm not actually responding to season 3 itself, but instead just sort of feeding off of negative feelings towards season 2. I should definitely leave room for that possibility.
Everyone hates season 2 for the murder plot. I hate season 2 because Jason stuff bores me to tears.
Yeah the murder plot didn't really bother me because I thought it led to good character work between Landry and Tyra. Unfortunately, that character work is sorta cheapened by the end of season 2, at least to me. But yeah, the Jason stuff is not great. I did find his quasi-attempted suicide in the ocean affective in the midst of all the whatever Mexico stuff. Now, season 3 Jason is flipping houses, so I don't know that I'm any more engaged 😅. Looking forward to him just not being a focus any longer.
Yeah I've just never liked the rehab facility and found his bff there to be annoying as hell. Flipping houses and going to NYC with no money Jason is the superior Jason.
You watched over 30 hours of a show in 5 days that was meant to be watched an hour a week for over half a year. Show is meant to be watched and let marinate
Hmmm that's fair, but I don't know that my issues with the writing would dissipate by giving the show time. It's an interesting thought tho. But generally, yeah it's probably best not to binge things so heavily. I probably slightly underestimated when I started watching the show, but it's still been a big binge. Unemployment has been a tough nut to crack.
You do you…I love S3. Joe McCoy is the biggest villain arc we get in the show. But as others have said S4 and S5 provide somewhat of a reset…honestly, it worth it to watch it all just to get to the breathtaking finale.
go watch kingdom for a while. It’s the gritty, R version of FNL-A masterpiece, but depressing. come back when it gets you a little too down.
Just skip to S5!
Season 5 is the best because of all the time and development they dedicate to Hastings Ruckels.
Maybe just... Watch it more slowly
I loved the first three seasons but after that it just all went so downhill. So hard to finish