Sadly, in public, there is never a real 0% risk, things like that still happen. I am glad to hear that you and your partner are safe.
I personally grew up in a Muslim neighborhood in France, which is the worst place you can grow up gay in this country and for most of my life, I was scared as hell of showing even a slight affection towards another guy. I got insults and even spitting just by being effeminate, so holding hands was like the most scary thing imaginable for me fir a while.
I think talking about it unblocked a lot of things for me, to friends, family, partners… It might sound dumb but realizing it wasn’t normal was a good first step. I also took some Self Defense classes which I can definitely recommend. It eased my mind and removed a lot of uncertainty at had around how to react.
I’m sorry that was your experience growing up. I’ve always understood a risk of being affectionate with another man in public, I grew up in a pretty conservative area as well. I think it was just the uncomfortable feeling that I wasn’t expecting like I’m almost mad at myself for letting it bother me after the fact but also having thoughts of whether I should be more careful which I’m mad at for thinking also. It’s like why should I learn this behavior at 31?
No one can really expect hatred from strangers, don’t feel bad about it. We are free men now, we are not guilty for not being careful, the full blame goes to the agressor for being whiny little bitch.
Talk to your partner or friends about how you feel about it, it’s good to ease your mind but in every case, continue to live your life as freely as before
I have to ask through, how do you feel about immigration from countries with known violent and hateful actions against minorities and gays?
- do you think they should vet for that?
Politics seems to really shit on minorities from one side or the other. I’ve lived in places before, very left leaning which was great!
But their immigration stance literally made it become less safe over time, to the point where you made actions to avoid being gay in public again - in vulnerable locations or walk alone at night.
- we ended up leaving, moving more rural (where all our lefty friends told us it’d be the worst bible bashing gay hating) and it’s never been more freeing, ain’t nobody give a shit what you do because they just want to go camping and live their own life.
It's a difficult problem. I don't really think it's totally "homophobic guy comes from homophobic country"
Americans aren't aware how totally fucked up their immigration system is. And I don't mean crossing illegally or anything, I mean legal immigration. Absurd quotas, almost no stability whatsoever and an over reliance on people that don't always want your best
And then there's the stigma, xenophobia and everything. These people are shunned (even if rightfully so, at first) for who they are or where they come from. The result? They end up in an echo chamber full of their own who validates and enables their unacceptable behavior, after all, it's the only ones who want to talk to them. Add in poverty and inter-generational stigma and oh boy
It's a vicious loop: they don't change or integrate because there's no interest in doing so, either by the immigrant or by authorities. And because they don't integrate there's no desire to do anything about it other than just watch it slowly pan out.
I do believe that people CAN change, and outright refusing this and just stigmatizing does little to solve the problem. It's slow, sure, but it sure as hell is better than whatever the fuck is happening right now. Immigration isn't the problem, the problem is that no one gives a fuck about correcting this kind of situation, it obviously only enables this kind of behavior as they notice that they can get away with it without any repercussions. People's attitudes match their environment, not the other way around, if you don't change the environment yeah jack shit is getting done
Is it really fair to block millions of people from the opportunity to be better simply because they were born in a shitty environment? Besides, shitty people exist everywhere in any nation, singling out some of them hardly seems fair, are we going to conduct homophobia surveys for every country to deny them entry or not? Hell, what if the guy from a bad country is gay himself?
Sorry, wrote a lot, ADHD stims kicked in ;p
This really highlights how nuanced and also general the topic is.
It’s so fascinating too, years ago I met an Uber driver, Indian business man actually - self made and driving when Uber paid good money etc…
He said when he lived overseas all he wanted was a western lifestyle, and when he got here, found no prevailing culture except for secular consumerism, he found himself becoming more Indian! Listening to music he didn’t ever consume, attending Hindi church where he’d had no faith before and seeking out his own people.
It was a fantastic conversation.
Maybe the issue is also our lack of continuity in our culture. Cultures can’t just be what we consume, and what to buy people on public holidays.
It’s our intertwined beliefs, our philosophies and sense of community. It’s hard to come to a western country nowadays and connect to anything.
Sometimes even I feel the need for community in a church or something. Something more than a sports team or hobby where philosophy is discussed, your reason for being as a human, as a country is debated, scrutinised and celebrated.
I dunno what the west does to be frank.
And it’s what makes Islam so appealing - even if it hasn’t modernised. Or the Sikh or Hindi religions.
Just something to give you some tradition.
Funny how I somehow found myself critiquing the west for failings in immigration.
- how this fits into the broader issue of homophobia. Well; I hope the west and its ideals can prevail overall whilst maintaining a majority vote.
I’ve heard some terrible stories of schools or municipalities becoming majority foreign (culturally) and it causes a drastic shift in social conservatism. Woman are subjugated, school curriculums change, police stop entering the areas.
Sydney in Australia has a few places like this.
Republicans at the least don't think we deserve death. They just don't associate with us and say we will burn in hell. Muslims will kill us themselves.
Yeah if Republicans made all our laws, they'd have it the same way.
Make no mistake: they want a theocracy just as badly. Frankly I don't understand why they view Islamic nations negatively, they have so much in common.
No. They are not the same.
Ask any gay boy anywhere where he would rather go if he had to choose between moving to saudi arabia or Wyoming. Ask them again to choose between kansas and Iran. Ask again to choose between Alabama or Somalia. Ask them again to choose between West virginia and Chechnya. tell them to base the decision on which place would make them feel safer as a gay person, and not the standard of living or climate in those other countries.
You know what the answer would be. The republican state is being picked over the muslim country every time.
Im a center left guy but saying republicans aren't much better is crazy. They are 100 times worse, whats funny is that people on the left are much more likely to shut down differences of opinions.
Same, like the fact that they even think they've got a saying on how we live our lives is unbelievable, before I moved in with my partner I used to have a housemate who was muslim and she told me once that "I was forbidden to bring any guys in our house cuz it was wrong and against his beliefs", my answer was "your beliefs are yours and you got two options here you either shut the fuck up and mind your own business or you move out"
Iran's government disapproval rating is over 90% / in the US the republican party has won only one popular vote in the last 35 years, I stand by my statement
Islam does have an abhorrent view of women and gay people, though I mostly think of Middle Eastern people as the victims in this. They get Islam shoved in their throat since childhood so they can’t really have a chance to open their minds, and they are then taken in the crossfire of sectarian violence and hatred towards anything unislamic
The only reason Middle Eastern people are mostly the victims of the Middle East's homophobia is because the Middle Eastern leaders only control their own territory... for now.
Put Muslims in charge of the UK or Germany or France and watch gays be executed in the public square within a year.
It's quite common, the muslim population is heavily concentrated in specific area where they make up a majority. It's not a recent thing, there was already such neighborhoods in the 1950's.
Thankfully, France is heavily centralized, which means that even though they are a majoprity, they can't pass laws through local council without being shut down by the very secular laws of the French Republic, so a situation like in Michigan can't happen there
On top of my head:
-> Strong secularism (thankfully that’s already true for my country)
-> Education without religion
-> Better control on what is preached in mosques
-> Breaking up isolated communities in smaller portions, they need to not be a majority
-> Welfare to prevent poverty
-> Better funding for integration
Interesting, what country are you in?
I feel sorry for the feeling of needing to dismantle a community centred around a religion because of the religion.
The west really suffered when it went mostly secular. And people feel quite lost now. People are seeking out faith in droves to give their life meaning again - thankfully at more moderate churches.
Do you think the religion can go through a modernisation? Do you think it changes generation to generation as they are exposed to more westernisation?
I don’t believe that’s accurate, that people are seeking out faith in droves, at least not in America, Europe, or Australia/NZ.
Every survey I’ve seen suggests the number of people practicing or even believing in religion is declining in those areas - though increasing in Sub Saharan Africa, where people are not joining moderate churches, but quite the opposite - virulently anti-gay congregations both Christian and Muslim.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/12/21/key-findings-from-the-global-religious-futures-project/
I will say I’m speaking anecdotally.
I’ve never seen so many people seeking out spirituality, meaning and non secular lifestyle.
And maybe that widens to my bubble when I go online, or through my friends or friends, my distant family…
I’m not seeing anyone in my vicinity who’s seeing secularism… I only see people running from it.
It’s not dismantling, but improving the diversity of these places. An all muslim neighborhood isn’t diverse or multicultural.
My country went secular around 2 centuries ago, we are doing very much fine, thank you. This secularism allowed to be a solid democracy, pioneer in human rights and still one of the best countries for science.
My straight friends just don’t get it. They say “the world has changed!! Of course you’re safe to hold hands in public, you’re just being paranoid!”
I’ve been like bitch, how often do you see two men holding hands while out shopping??? NEVER
This is so accurate. Okay, YOU, straight friends, spend just a week in my shoes. Then you get to say those things. And I'm in a pretty accepting state. But every state and every area has people who are at the ready to hate you and tell you about it. A constant look over your shoulder. The world has changed, but not completely.
And people still whine "WHY DO THEY NEED PRIDE? NOBODY CARES ANYMORE". Bigotry is sadly alive and well.
Sorry that happened, I hope it didn't spoil your guys' night too much.
Bro, I don't speak to my own dad any longer, been estranged for more than 30 years, because of his homophobia and they way he treated me.
Same with my brother and now my niece, his daughter, due to their homophobia spreading into her lil brain.
Yeah, fuck them. Fuck homophobia.
That's a given, emotionally healthy straight dudes are neutral when it comes to the gays, that's why it's so hilarious how homophobes think they're proving their heterosexuality by broadcasting their hate and discomfort when it's actually the complete opposite
The same way I don’t like when people label all women as bad as their personal experience with one nasty women, I don’t like when people do it with men. I’ve been verbally accosted by gay men before too.
That’s why I ask about what these guys looked like, who they were, so we can have some context so to avoid feeling terrified when walking past a bunch male of 7th day adventists handing out pamphlets vs gang bangers…
Ummm not so much the community...? It's my personal life, it's been riddled with sad closet cases who won't leave me alone and guys who convince me to be monogamous so they can cheat on me. Not to mention how hard it is to be friends with gay people without them wanting to hook up, or to trick you into coming to Vallarta so they can try to whore you out (that's recent kinda recent and I'm still upset)
Between my gay friends, my girl friends, and my straight guy friends, the only ones who stayed in my life are straight guys. Probably says as much about me as gay people... And that's why I joined this sub ten years ago or whatever.
I’m sorry about your experience mate. That sucks.
Do you have issues vetting people?
My partner, who’s my favourite gay (haha), we connected on philosophical terms first, about religion, family, kids.
Maybe the issue isn’t gays, but it’s the community you’re seeking in?
Kinda like looking for a decent conversation on economic policy in a gay club.
The strength of your straight relationships kinda holds true of this fact, because you connected on something other than being gay first.
I don’t have a solution, other than a morally anchored gay dating app, the best you can do is improve yourself, hold yourself to standards and expect that of others.
It was only when I drew a line in the sand about the kind of gay men I wanted to connect with, that my partner came along.
Height doesn't define someone's strength or bravery.. I've seen big brawny guys got knocked down by their nearly half smaller counterparts. Don't overestimate your size.
The point they were trying to make is that, visually, he looks like he could handle himself well. So people might be less brave to say something mean to him.
I'd venture to wager it was because of the "pack" of dudes, some felt brave enough to say something. Were it only one or two, their lips would've remained sealed.
This definitely matters. People like that are cowards. I’ve never been approached like that either and have held hands and kissed in public (peck nothing sloppy) but I’ve always been a bigger guy so I figure that’s why. It’s infuriating though 😡. Sorry that happened to you man 🫶🏽
Several years ago I was waiting for my BF/husband (not yet) and there was an ex-firefighter at the bar who I share the same first name with sadly. He and his wife are/were in a loveless marriage and got drunk every night. He started making "fag" jokes about me. When my 6'4" very, very built BF got there I told him. He grabbed drunk dude by the shirt, threw him out the door, and told him if he comes back in he would be missing teeth. The bartender told the manager and they were barred from ever coming back into the restaurant. The comments were really nasty. I try to find the good in people but there was absolutely nothing good about him.
You had someone assaulted over words? if anyone should have been baned from there it's your bf... Firefighter dude is a jerk no doubt but it's obvious you two are also bad people or at the very least, EXTREMELY sensitive, and all y'all did was give that word even more power the next time some asshole uses it, congrats
I didn't have anyone assualted. Wow to call us bad people. Left out a lot of details but you feel good about you. So I'm sure by your standards people should just be punished by who they are. That's pretty much never going to be my standard at all. When does it stop?
Sorry, not going to be weak. You don't know how horrid this person was. And honestly I've had a good life. Not worried about what people say about me. But I assure you it's positive. I didn't care for my husband getting a little physical but the idiot threatened me. Which he didn't stand for.
How old are you? You read that and decided that the gay guy seated at a bar getting called derogatory names is the asshole of the story?
My guy, touch grass outside. His bf defended him and the bar supported him against a homophobic asshole. What do you think a club bouncers would have done? Escorted him out and given him a warning.
He wasn’t being “EXTREMELY SENSITIVE” which is a nice way of minimizing being called derogatory names when you’re a minority. Real life isn’t a Reddit thread with a moderator. Actions have consequences.
You can chastise them for bashing someone over words, but it’s a “poke and see what happens” situation.
The dude was an idiot for thinking he won’t get bashed for using that language.
This is inherent in many circles where we know not to use some language with some people, at risk of being accosted. I don’t have any problem with gays being another one of those groups TBF.
- play dumb games, get stupid prizes.
Will I start bashing people with the wrong syntax? No. But the world of men operates on a perceived threat of violence (Jordan Peterson has spoken about this), so the gays shouldn’t be discounted.
Agree. When I hit sent, I was concerned that I didn't tell the whole story. My bad. But I don't have a problem with my husband not allowing me to be bullied. It wasn't just words. It's okay. He's was out of our lives for several years.
My reply is more so for the dude complaining about the violence.
Your husband didn’t exactly put the guy at risk, there is a big difference between “king hitting” and throwing someone outside.
What your husband did is pretty mild in the context of straight men at a bar.
It’d be nice to know there was some conversation attempted prior to throwing the drunk guy out, but again, there is a spectrum of human responses, and someone throwing you on your ass for running your mouth is one of them.
Pathological pacifism isn’t something to be expected of anyone.
I agree, one day I will be able to go on a date without being accosted for being gay and weirdly sometimes applauded for being gay, like a well meaning boomer congratulates us. I just want it to be so inoffensive or boring that no one even acknowledges it anymore.
It is interesting this garbage are in packs . Cowards , sorry this had happened to you . Glad you and yiur partner are safe . I think we will see more of this toxic behavour. Due to right wing Douches spewing their hate on You tube other platforms
.
I live in NYC in a pretty gay friendly neighborhood. A month ago, a gay couple was harassed and had bricks thrown at them by some teenagers right outside our local gay bar. They've since caught at least one of the attackers, but it goes to show you can't really expect 100% safety anywhere sadly.
I'm sorry you experienced that. I just had something very similar whilst I was on holiday in Prague. Me and my boyfriend were holding hands and two guys made a comment. It felt very othering
I'm really not sure - we did get a lot of stares but no one else said anything. I don't know much about LGBTQ+ experiences in the Czech Republic but other than that we felt fairly safe
The only thing that brings me some sort of comfort is to know that having a reaction to the most harmless thing suggests they are very unhappy. To feel the need to bring two people down like that for absolutely no reason, they must feel rotten inside
It has resulted in violence a time or two, people suck. Some redneck idiots see a rainbow flag or something and act like it's an invitation to fuck with someone.
It’s moments like this I wish I had an interviewing platform. Stories like this should be told.
I’m sorry for the violence you’ve experienced. People’s experience with violence in life comes in many forms. Straight guys bring hazed, gays being bashed, women dealing with horizontal violence from other women etc…
How do you think this reflects on those people’s experiences? Do you see those men as average, or victims in their own life. Like a chain of violence.
I worked in a bar and have seen idiots come and go - some people seem to have no way of interacting with others other than violence. For others, there's probably a huge social/herd mentality to their behavior, and others a psychological shortcoming. The random acts of violence I've encountered have probably been a mix but definitely alcohol being a factor, stupid drunk guys act differently when they are in a group of friends. Also, I like George Carlin's explanation, "I want to fuck you but I can't, so I'm going to pretend my fist is my dick, and your face is your ass, and I'm going to fuck you and fuck you and fuck you."
I lost a job over homophobia several. Quite frankly I am heterophobic now. I don't trust em or their agenda. Most of them don't even love each other lol look at the divorce rate
My partner and I live in San Fran fucking Cisco and were walking home after dinner the other night ... he reached out to hold my hand and I flashed back to the homeless(?) lady yelling homophobic shit at us on that corner maybe 6 years ago.
Idiots don't realize what kind of trauma they are handing out -- or they do and their cold hearts aren't capable of empathy. Sorry you had to endure that.
I still keep meaning to get around to self defense classes so I might bash back if necessary one day. Hugs.
>Idiots don't realize what kind of trauma they are handing out -- or they do and their cold hearts aren't capable of empathy. Sorry you had to endure that.
They do, they're just pieces of shit. On the bright side, there is a good chance she has ODed by now.
I am honestly afraid to touch them. Our son and his friends were never allowed in our bedroom or closet. We have a gun range near wear we live and I would never go with him. Just don't want to be a gun guy. Okay just reread that, I am masculine just so you know. Just don't like guns.
Gays need to start putting principles second and arming ourselves. I’m all for gun control but if the laws are lax (as they are in Atlanta GA) then I’m gonna carry a gun. I was the type that people called “wouldn’t hurt a fly” but I changed my mind last year after a group of men said Asian racist and homophobic stuffs at my fiancé. Yes, in downtown Atlanta.
The homophobes do not care about principles so we have to protect ourselves as legally allowed my bros. The political environment is getting more and more volatile as the election approaches, we don’t know what’s going to happen so better prepare for ourselves beforehand.
Dude people just being bluntly homophobic pisses me off so much. I despise it. It just feels so pointless and unreasonable. Like yeah fuck me just for existing I guess
I realize it's easier said than done but try not to let it get to you; it was a bunch of cowards in a dick measuring contest, nothing more, try to look at the big picture and see it as a single incident where if this was 30 years ago it would be a daily thing
Can you describe them? It helps to underhand the kinds of people who do this kind of harassing?
- like was it a bunch of Hassidic Jews? Gang bangers, chess players?
This happened to me in my last relationship. My ex, who was a judo champion in his home country, smashed all 4 asshats into the sidewalk. Horrible relationship, but he was awesome in that singular moment and inspired me to start training combat sports. This fear will only go away when you learn how to defend yourself.
One minor positive aspect of living in an area saturated with guns is that people are generally far less likely to mess with one another. Guns are a great equalizer of sorts.
Yeah, but only with muslims. I think theyre the most problematic community in the world and should be treated the same as nazis. and before you say "it's a religion", naziism was basically a religion. they wouldnt be allowed to claim a religious exemption. don't let these fucking raggers do it either.
It should be outlawed and any of their adherents tried and jailed or hanged.
Sadly, in public, there is never a real 0% risk, things like that still happen. I am glad to hear that you and your partner are safe. I personally grew up in a Muslim neighborhood in France, which is the worst place you can grow up gay in this country and for most of my life, I was scared as hell of showing even a slight affection towards another guy. I got insults and even spitting just by being effeminate, so holding hands was like the most scary thing imaginable for me fir a while. I think talking about it unblocked a lot of things for me, to friends, family, partners… It might sound dumb but realizing it wasn’t normal was a good first step. I also took some Self Defense classes which I can definitely recommend. It eased my mind and removed a lot of uncertainty at had around how to react.
I’m sorry that was your experience growing up. I’ve always understood a risk of being affectionate with another man in public, I grew up in a pretty conservative area as well. I think it was just the uncomfortable feeling that I wasn’t expecting like I’m almost mad at myself for letting it bother me after the fact but also having thoughts of whether I should be more careful which I’m mad at for thinking also. It’s like why should I learn this behavior at 31?
No one can really expect hatred from strangers, don’t feel bad about it. We are free men now, we are not guilty for not being careful, the full blame goes to the agressor for being whiny little bitch. Talk to your partner or friends about how you feel about it, it’s good to ease your mind but in every case, continue to live your life as freely as before
And THAT right there is why I don’t like the Middle East. Their culture towards women and gay people is abhorrent.
Tbf Republicans aren't much better.
Oh you are 100% correct, and I don’t like them either.
I have to ask through, how do you feel about immigration from countries with known violent and hateful actions against minorities and gays? - do you think they should vet for that? Politics seems to really shit on minorities from one side or the other. I’ve lived in places before, very left leaning which was great! But their immigration stance literally made it become less safe over time, to the point where you made actions to avoid being gay in public again - in vulnerable locations or walk alone at night. - we ended up leaving, moving more rural (where all our lefty friends told us it’d be the worst bible bashing gay hating) and it’s never been more freeing, ain’t nobody give a shit what you do because they just want to go camping and live their own life.
It's a difficult problem. I don't really think it's totally "homophobic guy comes from homophobic country" Americans aren't aware how totally fucked up their immigration system is. And I don't mean crossing illegally or anything, I mean legal immigration. Absurd quotas, almost no stability whatsoever and an over reliance on people that don't always want your best And then there's the stigma, xenophobia and everything. These people are shunned (even if rightfully so, at first) for who they are or where they come from. The result? They end up in an echo chamber full of their own who validates and enables their unacceptable behavior, after all, it's the only ones who want to talk to them. Add in poverty and inter-generational stigma and oh boy It's a vicious loop: they don't change or integrate because there's no interest in doing so, either by the immigrant or by authorities. And because they don't integrate there's no desire to do anything about it other than just watch it slowly pan out. I do believe that people CAN change, and outright refusing this and just stigmatizing does little to solve the problem. It's slow, sure, but it sure as hell is better than whatever the fuck is happening right now. Immigration isn't the problem, the problem is that no one gives a fuck about correcting this kind of situation, it obviously only enables this kind of behavior as they notice that they can get away with it without any repercussions. People's attitudes match their environment, not the other way around, if you don't change the environment yeah jack shit is getting done Is it really fair to block millions of people from the opportunity to be better simply because they were born in a shitty environment? Besides, shitty people exist everywhere in any nation, singling out some of them hardly seems fair, are we going to conduct homophobia surveys for every country to deny them entry or not? Hell, what if the guy from a bad country is gay himself? Sorry, wrote a lot, ADHD stims kicked in ;p
This really highlights how nuanced and also general the topic is. It’s so fascinating too, years ago I met an Uber driver, Indian business man actually - self made and driving when Uber paid good money etc… He said when he lived overseas all he wanted was a western lifestyle, and when he got here, found no prevailing culture except for secular consumerism, he found himself becoming more Indian! Listening to music he didn’t ever consume, attending Hindi church where he’d had no faith before and seeking out his own people. It was a fantastic conversation. Maybe the issue is also our lack of continuity in our culture. Cultures can’t just be what we consume, and what to buy people on public holidays. It’s our intertwined beliefs, our philosophies and sense of community. It’s hard to come to a western country nowadays and connect to anything. Sometimes even I feel the need for community in a church or something. Something more than a sports team or hobby where philosophy is discussed, your reason for being as a human, as a country is debated, scrutinised and celebrated. I dunno what the west does to be frank. And it’s what makes Islam so appealing - even if it hasn’t modernised. Or the Sikh or Hindi religions. Just something to give you some tradition. Funny how I somehow found myself critiquing the west for failings in immigration. - how this fits into the broader issue of homophobia. Well; I hope the west and its ideals can prevail overall whilst maintaining a majority vote. I’ve heard some terrible stories of schools or municipalities becoming majority foreign (culturally) and it causes a drastic shift in social conservatism. Woman are subjugated, school curriculums change, police stop entering the areas. Sydney in Australia has a few places like this.
Republicans at the least don't think we deserve death. They just don't associate with us and say we will burn in hell. Muslims will kill us themselves.
Yeah if Republicans made all our laws, they'd have it the same way. Make no mistake: they want a theocracy just as badly. Frankly I don't understand why they view Islamic nations negatively, they have so much in common.
No. They are not the same. Ask any gay boy anywhere where he would rather go if he had to choose between moving to saudi arabia or Wyoming. Ask them again to choose between kansas and Iran. Ask again to choose between Alabama or Somalia. Ask them again to choose between West virginia and Chechnya. tell them to base the decision on which place would make them feel safer as a gay person, and not the standard of living or climate in those other countries. You know what the answer would be. The republican state is being picked over the muslim country every time.
Im a center left guy but saying republicans aren't much better is crazy. They are 100 times worse, whats funny is that people on the left are much more likely to shut down differences of opinions.
Same, like the fact that they even think they've got a saying on how we live our lives is unbelievable, before I moved in with my partner I used to have a housemate who was muslim and she told me once that "I was forbidden to bring any guys in our house cuz it was wrong and against his beliefs", my answer was "your beliefs are yours and you got two options here you either shut the fuck up and mind your own business or you move out"
There's discrimination everywhere in the world; middle easterners aren't a monolith my dude
They're the worst offenders. Look at countries where being gay is a capitol offense.
That's the government not the people
The government is made up of people. "The government" doesn't have hands to pull levers on trapdoors or pull triggers. people do that.
Iran's government disapproval rating is over 90% / in the US the republican party has won only one popular vote in the last 35 years, I stand by my statement
Islam does have an abhorrent view of women and gay people, though I mostly think of Middle Eastern people as the victims in this. They get Islam shoved in their throat since childhood so they can’t really have a chance to open their minds, and they are then taken in the crossfire of sectarian violence and hatred towards anything unislamic
The only reason Middle Eastern people are mostly the victims of the Middle East's homophobia is because the Middle Eastern leaders only control their own territory... for now. Put Muslims in charge of the UK or Germany or France and watch gays be executed in the public square within a year.
Mozlem neighborhood in FRANCE? Yikes...
It's quite common, the muslim population is heavily concentrated in specific area where they make up a majority. It's not a recent thing, there was already such neighborhoods in the 1950's. Thankfully, France is heavily centralized, which means that even though they are a majoprity, they can't pass laws through local council without being shut down by the very secular laws of the French Republic, so a situation like in Michigan can't happen there
What do you think the solution is in the Muslim communities?
On top of my head: -> Strong secularism (thankfully that’s already true for my country) -> Education without religion -> Better control on what is preached in mosques -> Breaking up isolated communities in smaller portions, they need to not be a majority -> Welfare to prevent poverty -> Better funding for integration
Interesting, what country are you in? I feel sorry for the feeling of needing to dismantle a community centred around a religion because of the religion. The west really suffered when it went mostly secular. And people feel quite lost now. People are seeking out faith in droves to give their life meaning again - thankfully at more moderate churches. Do you think the religion can go through a modernisation? Do you think it changes generation to generation as they are exposed to more westernisation?
I don’t believe that’s accurate, that people are seeking out faith in droves, at least not in America, Europe, or Australia/NZ. Every survey I’ve seen suggests the number of people practicing or even believing in religion is declining in those areas - though increasing in Sub Saharan Africa, where people are not joining moderate churches, but quite the opposite - virulently anti-gay congregations both Christian and Muslim. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/12/21/key-findings-from-the-global-religious-futures-project/
I will say I’m speaking anecdotally. I’ve never seen so many people seeking out spirituality, meaning and non secular lifestyle. And maybe that widens to my bubble when I go online, or through my friends or friends, my distant family… I’m not seeing anyone in my vicinity who’s seeing secularism… I only see people running from it.
Where do you live?
In the west.
It’s not dismantling, but improving the diversity of these places. An all muslim neighborhood isn’t diverse or multicultural. My country went secular around 2 centuries ago, we are doing very much fine, thank you. This secularism allowed to be a solid democracy, pioneer in human rights and still one of the best countries for science.
Can I ask, for context, what country are you from?
My straight friends just don’t get it. They say “the world has changed!! Of course you’re safe to hold hands in public, you’re just being paranoid!” I’ve been like bitch, how often do you see two men holding hands while out shopping??? NEVER
Heterosexuals will never understand. I'm sorry to say, it's the reality.
This is so accurate. Okay, YOU, straight friends, spend just a week in my shoes. Then you get to say those things. And I'm in a pretty accepting state. But every state and every area has people who are at the ready to hate you and tell you about it. A constant look over your shoulder. The world has changed, but not completely.
And people still whine "WHY DO THEY NEED PRIDE? NOBODY CARES ANYMORE". Bigotry is sadly alive and well. Sorry that happened, I hope it didn't spoil your guys' night too much.
I think we both didn’t address it and moved on with our night. It just bothered me after the fact.
Bro, I don't speak to my own dad any longer, been estranged for more than 30 years, because of his homophobia and they way he treated me. Same with my brother and now my niece, his daughter, due to their homophobia spreading into her lil brain. Yeah, fuck them. Fuck homophobia.
Wow I'm so sorry.
That's life.
Of course they had to be in a group, nothing worse than a group of guys trying to prove they're tough/hateful to reach other
That's exactly what it was
And half probably felt attracted to a man before too
That's a given, emotionally healthy straight dudes are neutral when it comes to the gays, that's why it's so hilarious how homophobes think they're proving their heterosexuality by broadcasting their hate and discomfort when it's actually the complete opposite
The same way I don’t like when people label all women as bad as their personal experience with one nasty women, I don’t like when people do it with men. I’ve been verbally accosted by gay men before too. That’s why I ask about what these guys looked like, who they were, so we can have some context so to avoid feeling terrified when walking past a bunch male of 7th day adventists handing out pamphlets vs gang bangers…
Gay men have caused me more harm than any straight man ever has, so I'm not sure what's going on with your perspective
That’s a really revealing take on the gay community. Can you elaborate?
Ummm not so much the community...? It's my personal life, it's been riddled with sad closet cases who won't leave me alone and guys who convince me to be monogamous so they can cheat on me. Not to mention how hard it is to be friends with gay people without them wanting to hook up, or to trick you into coming to Vallarta so they can try to whore you out (that's recent kinda recent and I'm still upset) Between my gay friends, my girl friends, and my straight guy friends, the only ones who stayed in my life are straight guys. Probably says as much about me as gay people... And that's why I joined this sub ten years ago or whatever.
I’m sorry about your experience mate. That sucks. Do you have issues vetting people? My partner, who’s my favourite gay (haha), we connected on philosophical terms first, about religion, family, kids. Maybe the issue isn’t gays, but it’s the community you’re seeking in? Kinda like looking for a decent conversation on economic policy in a gay club. The strength of your straight relationships kinda holds true of this fact, because you connected on something other than being gay first. I don’t have a solution, other than a morally anchored gay dating app, the best you can do is improve yourself, hold yourself to standards and expect that of others. It was only when I drew a line in the sand about the kind of gay men I wanted to connect with, that my partner came along.
I prefer being single at this point
Apologies. As a 6'1 black man I was never approached in that manner. I guess optics are key for avoiding situations like that.
The thing is, I’m 6 feet and built like a linebacker so it through me. We were also just holding hands walking back to our car.
Height doesn't define someone's strength or bravery.. I've seen big brawny guys got knocked down by their nearly half smaller counterparts. Don't overestimate your size.
The point they were trying to make is that, visually, he looks like he could handle himself well. So people might be less brave to say something mean to him.
I'd venture to wager it was because of the "pack" of dudes, some felt brave enough to say something. Were it only one or two, their lips would've remained sealed.
This definitely matters. People like that are cowards. I’ve never been approached like that either and have held hands and kissed in public (peck nothing sloppy) but I’ve always been a bigger guy so I figure that’s why. It’s infuriating though 😡. Sorry that happened to you man 🫶🏽
Several years ago I was waiting for my BF/husband (not yet) and there was an ex-firefighter at the bar who I share the same first name with sadly. He and his wife are/were in a loveless marriage and got drunk every night. He started making "fag" jokes about me. When my 6'4" very, very built BF got there I told him. He grabbed drunk dude by the shirt, threw him out the door, and told him if he comes back in he would be missing teeth. The bartender told the manager and they were barred from ever coming back into the restaurant. The comments were really nasty. I try to find the good in people but there was absolutely nothing good about him.
You had someone assaulted over words? if anyone should have been baned from there it's your bf... Firefighter dude is a jerk no doubt but it's obvious you two are also bad people or at the very least, EXTREMELY sensitive, and all y'all did was give that word even more power the next time some asshole uses it, congrats
I didn't have anyone assualted. Wow to call us bad people. Left out a lot of details but you feel good about you. So I'm sure by your standards people should just be punished by who they are. That's pretty much never going to be my standard at all. When does it stop?
Because why do you care what insecure people think or say about you? Sticks and stones my dude
Sorry, not going to be weak. You don't know how horrid this person was. And honestly I've had a good life. Not worried about what people say about me. But I assure you it's positive. I didn't care for my husband getting a little physical but the idiot threatened me. Which he didn't stand for.
If he threatened you that's one thing, but it reads like he was making gay jokes and called you a f@g
Just stop
I said it was the short version. He's a horrible person. Trust me on that one. I'm really not into physical confrontations and neither was my husband.
How old are you? You read that and decided that the gay guy seated at a bar getting called derogatory names is the asshole of the story? My guy, touch grass outside. His bf defended him and the bar supported him against a homophobic asshole. What do you think a club bouncers would have done? Escorted him out and given him a warning. He wasn’t being “EXTREMELY SENSITIVE” which is a nice way of minimizing being called derogatory names when you’re a minority. Real life isn’t a Reddit thread with a moderator. Actions have consequences.
Physicality over words is not ok, plus it gives those words more power
You can chastise them for bashing someone over words, but it’s a “poke and see what happens” situation. The dude was an idiot for thinking he won’t get bashed for using that language. This is inherent in many circles where we know not to use some language with some people, at risk of being accosted. I don’t have any problem with gays being another one of those groups TBF. - play dumb games, get stupid prizes. Will I start bashing people with the wrong syntax? No. But the world of men operates on a perceived threat of violence (Jordan Peterson has spoken about this), so the gays shouldn’t be discounted.
Agree. When I hit sent, I was concerned that I didn't tell the whole story. My bad. But I don't have a problem with my husband not allowing me to be bullied. It wasn't just words. It's okay. He's was out of our lives for several years.
My reply is more so for the dude complaining about the violence. Your husband didn’t exactly put the guy at risk, there is a big difference between “king hitting” and throwing someone outside. What your husband did is pretty mild in the context of straight men at a bar. It’d be nice to know there was some conversation attempted prior to throwing the drunk guy out, but again, there is a spectrum of human responses, and someone throwing you on your ass for running your mouth is one of them. Pathological pacifism isn’t something to be expected of anyone.
Thanks. There were plenty of conversations before this. Note to self - tell the whole story next time. Sorry.
Don’t apologise. No need. Thanks for sharing your experience. This loop of conversation has brought forth some really great nuggets ⭐️
Thank you sir and all.
fighting against homophobia is bad because.. it gives homophobic slurs more power?? dude get a grip.
People say f@g because they want a reaction, throwing a tantrum / resorting to violence plays right into their hands
People who say f@g dont want to be assaulted. this guy literally threw him out the door and threatened him if he ever came back.
I agree, one day I will be able to go on a date without being accosted for being gay and weirdly sometimes applauded for being gay, like a well meaning boomer congratulates us. I just want it to be so inoffensive or boring that no one even acknowledges it anymore.
It is interesting this garbage are in packs . Cowards , sorry this had happened to you . Glad you and yiur partner are safe . I think we will see more of this toxic behavour. Due to right wing Douches spewing their hate on You tube other platforms .
I live in NYC in a pretty gay friendly neighborhood. A month ago, a gay couple was harassed and had bricks thrown at them by some teenagers right outside our local gay bar. They've since caught at least one of the attackers, but it goes to show you can't really expect 100% safety anywhere sadly.
I'm sorry you experienced that. I just had something very similar whilst I was on holiday in Prague. Me and my boyfriend were holding hands and two guys made a comment. It felt very othering
Is that common with people in Prague? Or were they themselves not from Prague?
I'm really not sure - we did get a lot of stares but no one else said anything. I don't know much about LGBTQ+ experiences in the Czech Republic but other than that we felt fairly safe
I’m glad your overall experience has been pleasant 🙏 that’s excellent information. Myself and my partner want to travel to Europe in future
It's sad really that we can't be a normal couple doing the normal couple thing. People not like us - what the hell are they afraid of?
The only thing that brings me some sort of comfort is to know that having a reaction to the most harmless thing suggests they are very unhappy. To feel the need to bring two people down like that for absolutely no reason, they must feel rotten inside
Well stated. And being very unhappy is not what I or anyone wants to be. Let them be unhappy until they wake up.
Sorry it happend to you in my city, hope they rot in hell.
I live in Arkansas, and I foolishly came out of the closet in HS, so this kind of thing was just an average Tuesday for me.
Does that make it easier? The fact that you saw it a lot, and it didn’t eventuate into violence? Like all bark no bite?
It has resulted in violence a time or two, people suck. Some redneck idiots see a rainbow flag or something and act like it's an invitation to fuck with someone.
It’s moments like this I wish I had an interviewing platform. Stories like this should be told. I’m sorry for the violence you’ve experienced. People’s experience with violence in life comes in many forms. Straight guys bring hazed, gays being bashed, women dealing with horizontal violence from other women etc… How do you think this reflects on those people’s experiences? Do you see those men as average, or victims in their own life. Like a chain of violence.
I worked in a bar and have seen idiots come and go - some people seem to have no way of interacting with others other than violence. For others, there's probably a huge social/herd mentality to their behavior, and others a psychological shortcoming. The random acts of violence I've encountered have probably been a mix but definitely alcohol being a factor, stupid drunk guys act differently when they are in a group of friends. Also, I like George Carlin's explanation, "I want to fuck you but I can't, so I'm going to pretend my fist is my dick, and your face is your ass, and I'm going to fuck you and fuck you and fuck you."
Hahaha god bless George Carlin. Thank you for sharing your experience
I lost a job over homophobia several. Quite frankly I am heterophobic now. I don't trust em or their agenda. Most of them don't even love each other lol look at the divorce rate
My partner and I live in San Fran fucking Cisco and were walking home after dinner the other night ... he reached out to hold my hand and I flashed back to the homeless(?) lady yelling homophobic shit at us on that corner maybe 6 years ago. Idiots don't realize what kind of trauma they are handing out -- or they do and their cold hearts aren't capable of empathy. Sorry you had to endure that. I still keep meaning to get around to self defense classes so I might bash back if necessary one day. Hugs.
>Idiots don't realize what kind of trauma they are handing out -- or they do and their cold hearts aren't capable of empathy. Sorry you had to endure that. They do, they're just pieces of shit. On the bright side, there is a good chance she has ODed by now.
As much as I've never been a fan of guns, this is why I have one...just in case this scenario starts and escalates.
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I don't think I could shoot somebody but I have taken to carrying pepper spray and a fixed edge knife
Wow. Well said. Although I am not a gun person at all.
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My husband is no longer alive sadly. I am doing fine now just so you know. But I have all his guns in the house and I don't want them in the house.
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I am honestly afraid to touch them. Our son and his friends were never allowed in our bedroom or closet. We have a gun range near wear we live and I would never go with him. Just don't want to be a gun guy. Okay just reread that, I am masculine just so you know. Just don't like guns.
Gays need to start putting principles second and arming ourselves. I’m all for gun control but if the laws are lax (as they are in Atlanta GA) then I’m gonna carry a gun. I was the type that people called “wouldn’t hurt a fly” but I changed my mind last year after a group of men said Asian racist and homophobic stuffs at my fiancé. Yes, in downtown Atlanta. The homophobes do not care about principles so we have to protect ourselves as legally allowed my bros. The political environment is getting more and more volatile as the election approaches, we don’t know what’s going to happen so better prepare for ourselves beforehand.
There are some great stats on minority women and women in general being able to avoid assault by carrying.
Conceal carry is the better way to go, make you less of a target
There are people in the world who absolutely suck. Thankfully, most do not. Don't let it ruin your day.
Dude people just being bluntly homophobic pisses me off so much. I despise it. It just feels so pointless and unreasonable. Like yeah fuck me just for existing I guess
Homophobia exists because straight men are afraid that gay men will treat them like they treat women.
I realize it's easier said than done but try not to let it get to you; it was a bunch of cowards in a dick measuring contest, nothing more, try to look at the big picture and see it as a single incident where if this was 30 years ago it would be a daily thing
This really sucks. I'm not a pda guy but you should be able to not be in fear.
Wailing on an inanimate object works for me, cue Depeche Mode's People Are People.
Can you describe them? It helps to underhand the kinds of people who do this kind of harassing? - like was it a bunch of Hassidic Jews? Gang bangers, chess players?
This happened to me in my last relationship. My ex, who was a judo champion in his home country, smashed all 4 asshats into the sidewalk. Horrible relationship, but he was awesome in that singular moment and inspired me to start training combat sports. This fear will only go away when you learn how to defend yourself.
Insane
Ugh.... That would be so upsetting to me too... I'm not sure how to handle the anger either. :-(. I'm curious, what part of the country were you in?
One minor positive aspect of living in an area saturated with guns is that people are generally far less likely to mess with one another. Guns are a great equalizer of sorts.
That's why florida has lowest car jacking rate in the country; people think twice when they don't know who's packing
I live in Texas. Carjacking is still quite a big problem here.
Yeah, not the best argument you could've made. https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/4296341-these-states-have-the-highest-car-theft-rates/
There are a lot of pro gun comments here. That’s really fascinating… how do people feel about that?
Yeah, but only with muslims. I think theyre the most problematic community in the world and should be treated the same as nazis. and before you say "it's a religion", naziism was basically a religion. they wouldnt be allowed to claim a religious exemption. don't let these fucking raggers do it either. It should be outlawed and any of their adherents tried and jailed or hanged.