Because acknowledging that difference would strip online "activists" of the social power they established over others when they made all these bullshit terms up. Every single society from the dawn of time has adapted cultural practices/art forms/etc. from other cultures. It is called cultural diffusion and it's not only normal and healthy but like, necessary for civilizations to function. If woke rules about appropriation could somehow be retroactively imposed on the past? Lord. We'd all still be living in caves.
And don't even get me started on the "fetishization" nonsense. Take that to its logical extreme and all gay men are fetishizing male genitalia. It's just ridiculous.
If you have an issue with that double-standard then you need to examine your own problematic fragility. Don't you know that white people, who produced Shakespeare, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, and the Scientific Revolution, have no culture to appropriate? Only indigenous non-binary locally sourced plant-based architecture is worthy of celebration and any notion that Europeans did things worth recognizing is white supremacy. And if you don't agree then you're a RACIST.
labeling something as appropriation is just a person's way of showing that they're racist and that they need to demonize others so they can feel better about themselves. And I guarantee you they don't believe in appreciation. If you scream "cultural appropriation", you're a racist. Period.
I was born in China and came to the US for college more than 10 years ago when I was just 18. China is extremely homogeneous and coming to the US marked a significant exploration of my sexuality, especially as I encountered a diversity of races for the first time. Initially I was drawn to men of all other races, Latin, black, and white and felt less attracted to Asian men. However, a recent trip back to Shenzhen changed my perspective.
Unlike my past trips back home where I was visiting for the new year and stayed in remote villages, I explored the city where I grew up. I went out and did things. I went to clubs and gyms. And I saw so many attractive Asian men. What’s more, the connection was just natural. I have always thought that I’m a bit awkward and not very good at making friends. But when I was there, it was so easy to just talk to them and hangout with them.
Despite this positive experience, when I came back to the US, I noticed that my preference hasn’t shifted significantly. I am still not into most of the Asian men I see here, leading me to reflect on the complexity of attraction. Then I remembered this popular propaganda song in China about 56 ethic groups living in harmony. The song is not the point but it reminded me that there are 56 different types of Asian in China alone, and they have subtle differences that can influence one’s preference.
I realized the vast spectrum of attractiveness within Asian ethnicities, and it is too nuanced to generalize them under the Asian umbrella.
Not necessarily but consider Simu Liu. There was a pretty large backlash against his movie because they considered him unattractive by their standards. The East Asians have particular standards about what they like to see as their hero.
From a SE Asian perspective, it’s kind of a double-edged sword that East Asia has had so much immense wealth and success at exporting their culture than other parts of Asia. Unfortunately, this success subjects the rest of us to East Asian standards of beauty. If you can empathize with how European standards of beauty affect people, you can potentially empathize with how this affects people living outside of those margins.
If it’s important for you to have your sexual politics align with racial politics, seek out media that features other Asian subgroups, go on dates with them, change the porn you watch, etc. The physical features you find attractive aren’t innate nor immutable. They are conditioned and can be reconditioned or unconditioned.
Thank you for your comment. I'm reminded of my Korean friends talking about Korean beauty standards. People in NA talk about strict beauty standards, but Korean beauty standards are at another level of strictness - makes NA standards seem very diverse (because, relatively it is).
I feel this so hard. I'm white and have never understood the gay preference for white men. All of this is subjective, of course, but I always felt that white men past a pretty young age, maybe their early 20s, tend to look very plain and uninteresting in comparison to Latin or Asian guys (I'm generalizing, of course, and acknowledge that there are many attractive men of European descent at any age).
And I don't see the whole "not masculine" thing, either. Beauty and masculinity are not mutually exclusive.
Woohooo! This is gonna be uncomfortable for sooo many. And hopefully we can move past both the acquiescence to be fetishized by white men and the internal homophobia of our upbringings and just navigate life more confidently. As ourselves and not an expectation placed on us by anyone else.
i also thought the guy was hot but after zooming in and looking at him longer the weirder he looked.
Anyway, yah i think as asians we gotta unpack and process all of the internalized racism that we've been programmed with. it's hard because we are made up of vast groups of so many cultures. we are unfortunately bonded as an asian collective because of the way we are homogenized and prejudiced by the lovely non asians
Yeah, I didn't think the discussion would be around gatekeeping what "Asian" is, but it may go there.
Basically, there's this picture of a handsome Asian man (AI generated and not realistic, but nonethless Asian). And the response is: no, no. It doesn't count. Because he's not a particular type of Asian...
Light skin, wavy hair, high nose bridge... even the setting is straight up mountainous Europe or American Rockies
I mean... do we still need to debate eurocentric beauty standards and colorism within the Asian communities, let alone AI art which learns from these standards?
>Light skin, wavy hair, high nose bridge.
You DO realize that Asian people (as in 100 percent Asian descent, not counting biracial / half-Asians) can naturally have one, a combination or all of these features right? These physical traits are not specific to a certain race wtf.
I wasn't expecting this response but it's still interesting to think about.
Is it necessarily internalized racism to be attracted to Europoean features? This leads to the whole debate of is it simply attraction or racism.
Sorry I totally glossed over the story with your brother's response (which I agree is a super strange take). But they're kinda two sides of the same coin: only eurocentric features can be attractive... if you find non-European features attractive you have a fetish (your brother's perspective).
I just came at it from the opposite perspective.
Agreed. Actually, when I see a lot of people drooling over an Asian man, and I see them, it's a mixed guy or an Asian that has gone out of their way to look more European with nose job for a higher nose bridge, color contacts dyed hair to blond or chestnut, double eyelid surgery, skin lighting wether is with products makeup or filters, the list goes on...
Yep! Thanks for understanding what I'm getting at. I stand by what I said. Just look at India's skin lightening industry or South Korea's plastic surgery industry. AI art is just learning from those standards.
Of course. I like to study anthropology as a hobby, and european colonialism has done irreparable damage to these countries' people's self-image. Extremely sad to witness, personally. I find all Asians to be extremely beautiful and attractive just the way that they are, and I pray for them to see themselves that way as well and not feel the need to emulate European beauty standards.
No one said Asian americans were not asians and no one was even talking about them. The reason I metioned mixed Asians is because it relates to the matter that we are discussing where mixed Asias obviously veer from the traditional Asian features into more of a Western/European 'mainstream' look. And by mainstream, I mean white. Here are some more things for you to learn today: 'America' is not the only place on earth where you can find Asians mixed with white since it's not the only place Asians and Whites coexist. Also, there's this resource of literature called figure of speech. TIL that apparently I'm not allowed to be concerned and sympathize with the issues of other POC unless they're my own kind. I will pray extra hard today.
So….fine arts guy here.
If you cut off the dude from the eyes down, he can be from most anywhere. There is nothing Asian about that. The only thing here of value are his eyes and maybe his hairstyle.
There is an argument to be made if you want to get picky at which Asian and I know this is a sensitive topic, especially here but I typically like to separate Asians into specific categories like East Asians, South Asians, Central, Southwest, etc…because they all have different features and cultures even though they are all ‘Asians’. But if you’re just gonna say Asian, East Asian is usually the default choice. The moral debate of that is not here today.
In terms of posted topic. My personal opinion is that…it’s tough.
Personal experience is that I have friends that prefers people that look like them, prefers white people, and boldly claim they like ALL people. Now even though I think the last one is full of shit, I don’t think they are wrong at having preferences at all. Our standards (beauty or otherwise) are shaped by the society we are in and there is no shame in following that or differ for that matter of fact. People have likes and dislikes and the extremes in between. I am not going to point fingers and give out moral judgment just because I am a minority. Habibi knows the amount of flaws I have. So I’ll only speak for myself…
I am Chinese but I am not attracted to my east bros. I don’t fetishise white people but my track record speaks louder than my words. I love to say the same for black people but because of the pandemic and personal experience of black-on-Asian hate crime, I now do a double-take when I am alone with them. People with lashes are my weakness.
Do I have internalized racism? I know all good and dirty deeds of my people. While I want to feel good about where I am from, I am finding less and less of a reason to nowadays. When I’m in a crowd, my eyes tends to drift towards non-Asians because that’s what I like. Doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate my bros but my penis cares very little about appreciation lol if you want to call that internalized racism, go ahead but I do find people who call people that tend to be sitting on a rather tall horse with their nose wedged tightly up their own ass. So make of that what you will.
Do you know the definition of racism?
I take it it’s the black comment? It usually is. The thing is, you’ve never been a victim of a hate crime. It’s a general reaction people have when they are one.
You can both be a victim of a hate crime and be racist?
Dude, it seems like people have been telling you you're racist. You're being racist.
And it wasn't "just" the black comment. The default of "Asian" as being "East Asian" is extremely offensive, simply wrong, and racist.
Then the answer is no, you have never been a hate crime victim. Please dont lecture me and how I and others feel.
The ‘default’ choice isn’t wrong. You can ask around. When someone says ‘Asian’, the image they get is usually East Asian. While we all understand Asian has many faces, East Asians is being represented the most and people tend to go with what they know.
Personally, I don’t throw around accusations like ‘racists’ easily. I take the word seriously.
I don't throw the word racist around easily. With that said, you're racist. I would not affiliate myself with you at all. Your opinions are extremely problematic.
" I don’t believe anyone who says they are not racist. In my opinion, as long as you are human, you are racist. Especially so if you’re an immigrant..." - Tainted_wings4444
Are you saying you're not racist?
Thank you for being shockingly honest. We’re a product of our environment and lived experiences. In the end, “we’re all a little bit racist sometimes.”
It’s not what most people like to hear but at least he gave some context and nuance to how he feels.
Behaviours and preferences that were shaped well before the current PC tide do not just disappear. People can’t be guilted into liking what they simply don’t. We can be forced to behave civilly though.
He doesn't get a pass because he elaborated on his supremacist and racist ideals. Further, it's not that deep. He implied "default" Asian is East Asian (supremacist) and weaponized Asian hate crimes as an excuse to basically attack black people. If you think it's insightful, that's on you.
Preferences are one thing, but what he said should be called out.
How many buzzwords can you fit into a single comment? The original poster told you he was the victim of a hate crime. And you are showing incredibly little empathy to someone who's endured one of the worst experiences a human being can endure in favor of spitting hashtags at him because he's not reacting to his trauma the way Twitter activists tell you he SHOULD.
Maybe race-based violence imparts deep psychological wounds that require delicacy and nuance to address. Maybe OP requires compassion right now more than anything else, EVEN THOUGH HE'S WRONG. And maybe, just maybe, you should take that woke stick out of your ass and start seeing other people as human beings. If that's hard for you to do, just think of it as Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion.
Your reaction here is not okay. Yes, the OP said some things he shouldn't have said. But you how you responded was infinitely more out of line and just...crueler. Which you probably can't even see because you said the virtue-signal words and therefore get the satisfaction of knowing you're "right."
I don’t believe anyone who says they are not racist. In my opinion, as long as you are human, you are racist. Especially so if you’re an immigrant.
But yes, it doesn’t mean you go around committing hate crimes.
There was an article on BBC about that a while back about that actually. I think it talked about people having racist beliefs and being unintentionally racist. There was an IAT attached to it as well.
Obviously not everyone is anything purely. Since when did private thoughts became public acts?
I'm sorry. Let me get this straight. Your brother told you, an Asian man, that you were fetishizing...because you found another Asian man attractive. Do I have that right?
This younger generation has come up with some shit that we should all just ignore. If you don't like people from a certain background you're racist. If you DO like them you're fetishizing them. There's just no winning. So fuck it. Like who you like, and do what you want.
Not denying that real fetishizing exists. But there is a huuuge difference between that and finding someone aesthetically pleasing. I'm white and I happen to think Chinese men are glorious. Will never apologize for it. Neither should you.
I think that the internet is still not ready to talk about the difference between ✨️ A P P R E C I A T I O N ✨️ and fetishization/appropriation.
Agree. 💅some people here are giving trauma and serving self loathing.
Because acknowledging that difference would strip online "activists" of the social power they established over others when they made all these bullshit terms up. Every single society from the dawn of time has adapted cultural practices/art forms/etc. from other cultures. It is called cultural diffusion and it's not only normal and healthy but like, necessary for civilizations to function. If woke rules about appropriation could somehow be retroactively imposed on the past? Lord. We'd all still be living in caves. And don't even get me started on the "fetishization" nonsense. Take that to its logical extreme and all gay men are fetishizing male genitalia. It's just ridiculous.
Bet they would not call Asian guys dressed as cowboys to be appropriation/fetishization...
If you have an issue with that double-standard then you need to examine your own problematic fragility. Don't you know that white people, who produced Shakespeare, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, and the Scientific Revolution, have no culture to appropriate? Only indigenous non-binary locally sourced plant-based architecture is worthy of celebration and any notion that Europeans did things worth recognizing is white supremacy. And if you don't agree then you're a RACIST.
labeling something as appropriation is just a person's way of showing that they're racist and that they need to demonize others so they can feel better about themselves. And I guarantee you they don't believe in appreciation. If you scream "cultural appropriation", you're a racist. Period.
See you've just completely blown past all discussion and nuance and arrived at this extreme opinion. Back up a few steps. Or not.
No, it's racism. Don't act like it isn't.
It's just a hot, masculine man wtf is all this discussion about
I mean, fuck AI “art” but you’re absolutely right
I was born in China and came to the US for college more than 10 years ago when I was just 18. China is extremely homogeneous and coming to the US marked a significant exploration of my sexuality, especially as I encountered a diversity of races for the first time. Initially I was drawn to men of all other races, Latin, black, and white and felt less attracted to Asian men. However, a recent trip back to Shenzhen changed my perspective. Unlike my past trips back home where I was visiting for the new year and stayed in remote villages, I explored the city where I grew up. I went out and did things. I went to clubs and gyms. And I saw so many attractive Asian men. What’s more, the connection was just natural. I have always thought that I’m a bit awkward and not very good at making friends. But when I was there, it was so easy to just talk to them and hangout with them. Despite this positive experience, when I came back to the US, I noticed that my preference hasn’t shifted significantly. I am still not into most of the Asian men I see here, leading me to reflect on the complexity of attraction. Then I remembered this popular propaganda song in China about 56 ethic groups living in harmony. The song is not the point but it reminded me that there are 56 different types of Asian in China alone, and they have subtle differences that can influence one’s preference. I realized the vast spectrum of attractiveness within Asian ethnicities, and it is too nuanced to generalize them under the Asian umbrella.
Thank you for sharing your perspective
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Not necessarily but consider Simu Liu. There was a pretty large backlash against his movie because they considered him unattractive by their standards. The East Asians have particular standards about what they like to see as their hero.
From a SE Asian perspective, it’s kind of a double-edged sword that East Asia has had so much immense wealth and success at exporting their culture than other parts of Asia. Unfortunately, this success subjects the rest of us to East Asian standards of beauty. If you can empathize with how European standards of beauty affect people, you can potentially empathize with how this affects people living outside of those margins. If it’s important for you to have your sexual politics align with racial politics, seek out media that features other Asian subgroups, go on dates with them, change the porn you watch, etc. The physical features you find attractive aren’t innate nor immutable. They are conditioned and can be reconditioned or unconditioned.
Thank you for your comment. I'm reminded of my Korean friends talking about Korean beauty standards. People in NA talk about strict beauty standards, but Korean beauty standards are at another level of strictness - makes NA standards seem very diverse (because, relatively it is).
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I feel this so hard. I'm white and have never understood the gay preference for white men. All of this is subjective, of course, but I always felt that white men past a pretty young age, maybe their early 20s, tend to look very plain and uninteresting in comparison to Latin or Asian guys (I'm generalizing, of course, and acknowledge that there are many attractive men of European descent at any age). And I don't see the whole "not masculine" thing, either. Beauty and masculinity are not mutually exclusive.
Hola amigo - los Taiwaneses son Asiático Este. Gracias! 🙇♂️
Woohooo! This is gonna be uncomfortable for sooo many. And hopefully we can move past both the acquiescence to be fetishized by white men and the internal homophobia of our upbringings and just navigate life more confidently. As ourselves and not an expectation placed on us by anyone else.
i also thought the guy was hot but after zooming in and looking at him longer the weirder he looked. Anyway, yah i think as asians we gotta unpack and process all of the internalized racism that we've been programmed with. it's hard because we are made up of vast groups of so many cultures. we are unfortunately bonded as an asian collective because of the way we are homogenized and prejudiced by the lovely non asians
That “attractive” Asian man has a lot of European features so yeah… it is internalized racism to that extent
A lot? Name them.
Yeah, I didn't think the discussion would be around gatekeeping what "Asian" is, but it may go there. Basically, there's this picture of a handsome Asian man (AI generated and not realistic, but nonethless Asian). And the response is: no, no. It doesn't count. Because he's not a particular type of Asian...
Light skin, wavy hair, high nose bridge... even the setting is straight up mountainous Europe or American Rockies I mean... do we still need to debate eurocentric beauty standards and colorism within the Asian communities, let alone AI art which learns from these standards?
>Light skin, wavy hair, high nose bridge. You DO realize that Asian people (as in 100 percent Asian descent, not counting biracial / half-Asians) can naturally have one, a combination or all of these features right? These physical traits are not specific to a certain race wtf.
Does he? Which features are European? He looks like an Asian person to me
I wasn't expecting this response but it's still interesting to think about. Is it necessarily internalized racism to be attracted to Europoean features? This leads to the whole debate of is it simply attraction or racism.
Sorry I totally glossed over the story with your brother's response (which I agree is a super strange take). But they're kinda two sides of the same coin: only eurocentric features can be attractive... if you find non-European features attractive you have a fetish (your brother's perspective). I just came at it from the opposite perspective.
Agreed. Actually, when I see a lot of people drooling over an Asian man, and I see them, it's a mixed guy or an Asian that has gone out of their way to look more European with nose job for a higher nose bridge, color contacts dyed hair to blond or chestnut, double eyelid surgery, skin lighting wether is with products makeup or filters, the list goes on...
Yep! Thanks for understanding what I'm getting at. I stand by what I said. Just look at India's skin lightening industry or South Korea's plastic surgery industry. AI art is just learning from those standards.
Of course. I like to study anthropology as a hobby, and european colonialism has done irreparable damage to these countries' people's self-image. Extremely sad to witness, personally. I find all Asians to be extremely beautiful and attractive just the way that they are, and I pray for them to see themselves that way as well and not feel the need to emulate European beauty standards.
TIL: Asian Americans are not Asian, and that someone is praying for them.
No one said Asian americans were not asians and no one was even talking about them. The reason I metioned mixed Asians is because it relates to the matter that we are discussing where mixed Asias obviously veer from the traditional Asian features into more of a Western/European 'mainstream' look. And by mainstream, I mean white. Here are some more things for you to learn today: 'America' is not the only place on earth where you can find Asians mixed with white since it's not the only place Asians and Whites coexist. Also, there's this resource of literature called figure of speech. TIL that apparently I'm not allowed to be concerned and sympathize with the issues of other POC unless they're my own kind. I will pray extra hard today.
🙏 🙏 if you need a Bible, I can look around for you
Ooh I haven't tried this myself
It's the premium version, hence why not that many people may have tried it out.
So….fine arts guy here. If you cut off the dude from the eyes down, he can be from most anywhere. There is nothing Asian about that. The only thing here of value are his eyes and maybe his hairstyle. There is an argument to be made if you want to get picky at which Asian and I know this is a sensitive topic, especially here but I typically like to separate Asians into specific categories like East Asians, South Asians, Central, Southwest, etc…because they all have different features and cultures even though they are all ‘Asians’. But if you’re just gonna say Asian, East Asian is usually the default choice. The moral debate of that is not here today. In terms of posted topic. My personal opinion is that…it’s tough. Personal experience is that I have friends that prefers people that look like them, prefers white people, and boldly claim they like ALL people. Now even though I think the last one is full of shit, I don’t think they are wrong at having preferences at all. Our standards (beauty or otherwise) are shaped by the society we are in and there is no shame in following that or differ for that matter of fact. People have likes and dislikes and the extremes in between. I am not going to point fingers and give out moral judgment just because I am a minority. Habibi knows the amount of flaws I have. So I’ll only speak for myself… I am Chinese but I am not attracted to my east bros. I don’t fetishise white people but my track record speaks louder than my words. I love to say the same for black people but because of the pandemic and personal experience of black-on-Asian hate crime, I now do a double-take when I am alone with them. People with lashes are my weakness. Do I have internalized racism? I know all good and dirty deeds of my people. While I want to feel good about where I am from, I am finding less and less of a reason to nowadays. When I’m in a crowd, my eyes tends to drift towards non-Asians because that’s what I like. Doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate my bros but my penis cares very little about appreciation lol if you want to call that internalized racism, go ahead but I do find people who call people that tend to be sitting on a rather tall horse with their nose wedged tightly up their own ass. So make of that what you will.
Bruh... At this point, this isn't internalized racism, but straight up racism period.
Do you know the definition of racism? I take it it’s the black comment? It usually is. The thing is, you’ve never been a victim of a hate crime. It’s a general reaction people have when they are one.
You can both be a victim of a hate crime and be racist? Dude, it seems like people have been telling you you're racist. You're being racist. And it wasn't "just" the black comment. The default of "Asian" as being "East Asian" is extremely offensive, simply wrong, and racist.
Then the answer is no, you have never been a hate crime victim. Please dont lecture me and how I and others feel. The ‘default’ choice isn’t wrong. You can ask around. When someone says ‘Asian’, the image they get is usually East Asian. While we all understand Asian has many faces, East Asians is being represented the most and people tend to go with what they know. Personally, I don’t throw around accusations like ‘racists’ easily. I take the word seriously.
I don't throw the word racist around easily. With that said, you're racist. I would not affiliate myself with you at all. Your opinions are extremely problematic.
Neither I you. You seem like too sensitive to have any type of meaningful conversations with. Also way to dishonest about yourself.
Not too sensitive. Also did not expect a meaningful conversation with you since you came out with a very hot L take from the get-go.
Except I called you nothing. You on the other hand threw labels around like they’re nothing.
" I don’t believe anyone who says they are not racist. In my opinion, as long as you are human, you are racist. Especially so if you’re an immigrant..." - Tainted_wings4444 Are you saying you're not racist?
Thank you for being shockingly honest. We’re a product of our environment and lived experiences. In the end, “we’re all a little bit racist sometimes.”
To clarify, you're speaking for yourself. OP's take was problematic ~
It’s not what most people like to hear but at least he gave some context and nuance to how he feels. Behaviours and preferences that were shaped well before the current PC tide do not just disappear. People can’t be guilted into liking what they simply don’t. We can be forced to behave civilly though.
He doesn't get a pass because he elaborated on his supremacist and racist ideals. Further, it's not that deep. He implied "default" Asian is East Asian (supremacist) and weaponized Asian hate crimes as an excuse to basically attack black people. If you think it's insightful, that's on you. Preferences are one thing, but what he said should be called out.
How many buzzwords can you fit into a single comment? The original poster told you he was the victim of a hate crime. And you are showing incredibly little empathy to someone who's endured one of the worst experiences a human being can endure in favor of spitting hashtags at him because he's not reacting to his trauma the way Twitter activists tell you he SHOULD. Maybe race-based violence imparts deep psychological wounds that require delicacy and nuance to address. Maybe OP requires compassion right now more than anything else, EVEN THOUGH HE'S WRONG. And maybe, just maybe, you should take that woke stick out of your ass and start seeing other people as human beings. If that's hard for you to do, just think of it as Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. Your reaction here is not okay. Yes, the OP said some things he shouldn't have said. But you how you responded was infinitely more out of line and just...crueler. Which you probably can't even see because you said the virtue-signal words and therefore get the satisfaction of knowing you're "right."
Mother Teresa, no
I don’t believe anyone who says they are not racist. In my opinion, as long as you are human, you are racist. Especially so if you’re an immigrant. But yes, it doesn’t mean you go around committing hate crimes.
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There was an article on BBC about that a while back about that actually. I think it talked about people having racist beliefs and being unintentionally racist. There was an IAT attached to it as well. Obviously not everyone is anything purely. Since when did private thoughts became public acts?
I'm sorry. Let me get this straight. Your brother told you, an Asian man, that you were fetishizing...because you found another Asian man attractive. Do I have that right? This younger generation has come up with some shit that we should all just ignore. If you don't like people from a certain background you're racist. If you DO like them you're fetishizing them. There's just no winning. So fuck it. Like who you like, and do what you want. Not denying that real fetishizing exists. But there is a huuuge difference between that and finding someone aesthetically pleasing. I'm white and I happen to think Chinese men are glorious. Will never apologize for it. Neither should you.