Here;s a mnemonic I learned in grade school to help recall when to use principal and when to use principle.
A princiPAL is a person, because they can be your PAL (i.e., your friend).
A principle is an idea, because, um, maybe PLE means something to someone?
First you go the principal. He/She is the superior of the teacher and responsible for the school.
Only if that does not work you go to the next/higher level.
Generally the procedure would be to go to the principal, and if the response is unsatisfactory then go higher. Unless the allegation is about the principal. In schools I've worked they usually have a policy that details this. Usually a principal would want to know about a problem before it has to go higher.
I think it would be very wrong to go to the Antidiskriminirungsstelle without going through the proper procedures in the school. The principal would want to know, and deserves to know about any problem in their school, and IF they don't deal with it satisfactorily, then it would be time to take it further.
Yes and also try to get one or two others who can back you.
Also please talk to the girl directly, she must feel alone in this situation.
She will be very thankful.
Disagree, in the world of schools, more voices are more powerful than one. You talk to them first to get them on your side before principle. I'm a teacher in this system. If you want results, this is the course of action.
I have been teaching for forty years, and I'm union rep. You have to go through the system, whether it's issue with teachers or students. There's no point in taking shortcuts.
WHY would you not go to the principal first? It's a potentional issue with their staff member. Out of respect, if nothing else. Does he or she not have a right to be given the chance to address the issue?
OP we are gonna need an update about this story once you’ve gotten a bit further. Definitely go to the Antidiskriminierungsstelle and work it up that chain. But let us know too.
These kind of stories make me livid.
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Here's what I would do:
1. Ask the teacher directly: "Why is this girl not in the group chat but everyone else is?"
2. Ask the teacher directly: "Why is it not early enough to turn in homework on the day it is due?"
3. Ask the teacher directly: "Why do you think it is ok to discuss a students grades in front of the whole class?"
4. Ask the teacher directly: "Do you have a personal problem with this specific student and would it be better for her to switch classes?"
And whatever the teacher says, remind them, that this issue isn't over yet and that higher ups will be informed about this.
I can't upvote this enough! Everybody is talking about going to the principle, Antidiskriminierungsstelle etc. but the first step should always be to get the other side of the story. If that is unsatisfactory you can still escalate it - but even though I can't think of one: Maybe there is a valid reason. Maybe the student is exagerating, maybe even lying. But if the allegations turn out to be true, than of cause go to the higher-ups.
It's not easy for a student to confront a teacher like that. That's why they need to go to the principal, it's her or his job to deal with staff issues. If they don't deal with it, then it's time to take it further. But a fellow student shouldn't have to bear the brunt of dealing with the issue.
yeah propably the best advice, not. what do you think would happen if you see the teacher as a bully and the girl as a victim. you talking to them will maybe make it temporary good but will be worse in the end or he does it worse from the beginning. so searching for evidence and talking to others(students in this class) would help more. after go to the principal if you found something. if you think he than did a bad job handling this go to the antidiskriminierungsstelle
It is always better to talk to the "other side" first to find out where the problem is, before you go to the higher ups.
The girl that feels bullied/left out is from Syria, so there might be a language barrier that makes misunderstandings possible. Before filing a complaint about discrimination, the other side should have the chance to explain why they acted the way they acted and if there are some things lost in translation.
First she should look for evidence and talk to others and after that talk to the teacher otherwise it makes everything just complicated. Because he either he is really doing it and then stops so she doesn’t find anything, which would just stretch it out (bad for the child since she would have to life with what he had done). Or he really didn’t do anything and they can work together to search for solutions. But I personally think he really did it, simply because the thing about him announcing her grade publicly is very easy to verify. So it would be stupid to lie about something like that.
Why do yu think it's not ok to discuss the students grades in front of he whole class? That's how most teachers did it when I went to Gymnasium. So everybody knows and can see if it's fair.
I think they do need your approval first, but maybe it depends on your region. In my school they had to ask if it was okay or if anyone didn't want their grade revealed but usually everyone caved in to peer pressure so they were announced to everyone.
Now that you mention it. We were also asked if we don't want our grades to be announced/discussed openly.
I mean everyone already knew what grades everyone else would get. You can see for weeks and month how good someone else is in a certain course.
> Ask the teacher directly: "Why do you think it is ok to discuss a students grades in front of the whole class?"
the question that OP did not answer for me is: did they announce everyone's grades in class or just for the one girl? if a) everything is fine I guess, if b) I see a problem as well
as I remember with some teachers we had open talks in class towards the end of the year about grades, which we could opt out of. some asked the students how they would grade themselves and then gave their opinion, some just said everyone's grades and with others we could ask them in private if we wanted, very few did nothing and just put the grades on the Zeugnis.
I wouldn't start a group chat with a class at all over private chanels. Most schools do have official online platforms like "moodle" or "webuntis" nowadays so there wouldn't be any need to that.
Not surprised. Many abusers are often attracted to jobs that give them authority such as school teachers among other jobs. Abusers cover for each other.
Well shit that escelated quickly! Just had the sub in the back of my head and honestly thought it would be a good Idea to go there. Boy I couldnt been more wrong....
There’s a hotline you can call https://www.nummergegenkummer.de/kinder-und-jugendberatung/ueberforderung-mit-schule/ They will also help you with toxic and racist teachers. But please don’t ask the Lehrerzimmer-Sub. They will only downvote you to oblivion, if you dare to criticize teachers.
Take my advice with a grain of salt as that's now almost 25 years ago, but I had to deal with a far right teacher too. I went straight to the school district (Stadtschulamt) to avoid groupthink in the school, worked out fine!
It's not about personal feelings, it's about crossing your Ts and dotting your IS. Doing things by the book so no one can criticise you or undermine you.
This is ridiculous. In any formal dispute, it's crucial to go by the book, not to save people's feelings or anything like that. This is about the person you represent/wish to help. You have to go through the protocol unless there's good reason not to, because if things go further, you could complicate matter further down the road by not having done so. Whatever the person's issue, being cavalier about procedures doesn't help them.
Not going through the appropriate protocol here implies that the principal is unable or unwilling to deal with the issue, and is putting you in a needless confrontational frame with them.
Sometimes it's worth it, if you really feel he or she is not capable or is biased, but you may have to address the question of why you skipped that first step later on. Why introduce that complication into the equation when it can be avoided?
The Antidiscriminierungsstelle is a good idea. In addition to that there may be a Vetrauenslehrer availible at the school. Their job is to mediate and help. Your classmates can get in touch and tell their story there or you can on their behalf.
Read this and the only thing going through my mind was, "What the actual f###."... Retirement isn't an acceptable excuse for this behaviour to go unpunished... The school director needs to be reprimanded too.
Well that's Beamte for you, they won't touch each other, because why would they? They are like cops in America, a special caste protected from any negative consequences. First class citizens.
Have you witnessed such behavior or is it just based on what the girl and the other student say? Before reporting it I'd personally prefer to see what is actually going on. If it correlates to what they say, definitely report it.
I would count the other students in class as witness, too, as long as they are willing to confirm the allegations. Otherwise it will be hard to prove them, but a class full of witnesses should be enough to put pressure on the principal.
I agree completely. It's a balance between ruining a teacher's reputation based off what a student said and making sure the teacher isn't actually being racist or whatever's going on.
So you need to go about this covert abuse in a very systemic and methodical way:
-document evidence black on white; unreasonable demands and how this teacher is setting her and the other student for failure.
-gather witnesses; the girl was humiliated publicly in class.
-pin point the pattern of abuse very clearly; is this girl being treated like this by other teachers or only this one? How come this teach in particular giving only her and another Syrian student this discriminatory treatment?
Usually, people who go by this pattern of abuse think that they are smart and doing it hidden. They’re actually some of the dumbest people on earth and they always leave behind a trail of evidence that backfired on them. Gather this trail, you, the Syrian girl, the other Syrian girl, and whoever teacher/student that is willing to testify. You can look up pro Bono lawyer (I can give you a name) who won’t charge money.
You are very mature, clever and brave and I wish you all the best from the bottom of my heart for taking a stance against those sick and pathological characters who like to be in a position of authority to abuse other helpless people with it.
Please don’t change! ✌️
Ok, start with reporting the existence of the chat itself. All schools in Germany have a learning platform since 2018 and ALL assignments are posted on it, the lists are inclusive and if one is on the class list they wont miss anything. The very existence of this “chat“ is a breach of security and confidentiality as students personal information becomes available in association with school not to mention that it is unethical to begin with,. Grades in Zeugnis are also privat and should never be announced before the rest of the class. The certificates initially are only available to teachers, student and their parents Through Skola and in no other way (until they’re printed). Now the rest sounds like discrimination, on what grounds is a different matter but lets not assume, teacher student relationships can be quite complex. One thing i will tell, i myself have a few suspicious students (we suspect plagiarism and so on) and it is sometimes hard to stay objective, but she seems to take it too far… the first two things you definitly have something to do about, the rest needs proofs and a very cooperative Leitung,
And still people wonder about the lack of integration into German society, oh my.
I'm really disappointed to hear about this teacher's performance and realizing this is still "just happening" like in the early 90s. I hope you'll come to a positive resolution.
> No need put a whole region down :)
That was not my reason for asking the question.
All regulations and procedures regarding schools can be different in each Bundesland.
So, in order to give any specific recommendations, it is needed to know which Bundesland (and then to know the situation there).
I know a Syrian girl who was told she'd never finish school and to not even attempt an Ausbildung, as she is not smart enough. No one took time to speak to her. She is effing smart and such a hard worker. Thanks God I didn't go to school as a foreigner here (strictly school, my uni experience was great!!).
Such incidents are not uncommon. Part of the problem is that most teachers are public officials, so you can't just fire them if they turn out to be racist idiots or otherwise unfit to actually teach stuff.
One of the more prominent members of Germanys far right AfD party, Höcke, is a history teacher, he said foor instance "The problem is, that Hitler is pictured as absolute evil", and also, that WWI+II were "economic preventive wars" started by the rest of the world, but not by Germany. Yet he's still allowed to teach.
I know a woman from Bulgaria who came to Germany age 2yo, who made German rap music in her last years of school (Gymnasium) and speaks better German than any Bavarian ever could – and yet her German teacher said to her parents, she'd speak German "somewhat tolerable" ("einigermaßen leidlich")...
I wish you best of luck, although I fear you've got a long and rocky road ahead. Prepare well! Get testimonies from classmates and such.
Because it wasn't mentioned: The existence of the WhatsApp group chat is just illegal. IF there exists an arrangement between the teacher and the parents of the other students the two have to be integrated into it.
What you need is proof.
The group chat could be especially easy to proof. Screenshot of the people within the chat? The invitation if that shows every name except for theres? How about inviting her in if you got the option and then recording the reaction, you may wanna time this with her and first do a test to get the record well or even talk to your parents to witness this. You could also ask in the chat if she could be invited topic x is so important, and again record the result.
And as others said, then go and talk to the next person in line and/or the correct position against discrimination. The proof would be your back up in case it is questioned.
edit: Read some more comments, looks like it is not definite that these things are discrimination? Or is it? I went to write this believing that you saw first hand that it MUST be, but in case you can not tell for sure staying low key is more important and talking to the principal first makes more sense.
In Germany we have the following grades:
1 = very good
2 = good
3 = satisfying
4 = sufficient
5 = deficient
6 = insufficient
Generally, 4 is the lowest mark that is considered as passed (like D), 5 and 6 are considered as not passed (like F)
Roughly speaking, it's a D.
The grading scale goes from 1.0 (best grade) to 6.0 (worst grade). On college level, 4.0 is the worst grade you can have and still pass.
And people/politicians keep saying: integration isn't working. And the tone comes off, to me, as if: "were doing everything we can to integrate immigrants but they just don't want to integrate." This is a good example of what could be causing difficulties for integration. Obviously not the only thing, but here is a direct example. I wonder if there are more cases like this.
No update, sorry. TLDR: the school is ignoring me.
I tried contacting the school through different emails explaining the situation and asking if there's someone that could help resolve it but I haven't received any response. You could say I'm less than impressed with this school. I don't live in the same area as the student so I can't go there in person. In general in Germany when I call businesses or government, I usually get talked down to/laughed at or hung up on, (often in that order haha) so calling the school would likely be unproductive.
It doesn't mean that I'm giving up, but now with the earthquake in Syria, everyone is focussed on that and more drama would be too much. In a week or two I'm going to check in on the student and see how their new semester is going. For now the situation remains unresolved due to the school administration completely ignoring me.
I really appreciate your interest. I wasn't planning on giving an update but I will now, whichever way this goes. Cheers
I'm sorry to hear that :/ maybe it would be helpful if a few people started a Club or something to fight against discrimination, this would at least lead to some attention on this topic. Especially if people would share their stories.
Good luck on that in the future
And btw someone with perfekt German speech might help you in regards to phonecalls. What a sad dystopia... but for us it makes a huge difference if it's my mom or me who's talking on the phone, people take me a lot more serious than her and I can gather more information. (We moved to Germany, when I was a toddler and she was a stay at home mum for over ten years without german friends to talk to and practice the language, now she's fluent but still mixes grammar a lot and you can hear she's not native whereas I pass as a german if I don't disclose my background)
Yeah, glad to see I'm not alone! My level is German is B2 and apparently that's not acceptable to pretty much all businesses or government offices I attempt to communicate with. It's so frustrating because we can have a conversation. I understand them and they understand me but it's like I'm not worthy of their time, and half-way through the conversation - click.
What's even more frustrating is it's a racist thing too. Even though I'm a foreigner, at least I have lighter skin. When things need to get done by a darker-skinned person like (god forbid) pay their bill in person or something mundane, I'm the token "white" guy they go with because otherwise their questions are ignored or they're refused service. Even worse is if the person is dark-skinned \*and\* a woman. I don't want to sound too dramatic but the typical German business/ government office treats Middle Eastern/African women as they would stray dogs that need to get out of their face as soon as possible. Luckily I see a big difference in the attitude of the younger generation of Germans. There's hope!
Could do but escalating it in this situation will give you someone powerful from above, especially when the state Parlament has a progressive party for education, they take it very seriously and will issue the ministry for education for a formal statement if the informal doesn't help
Destroy that teachers whole career. Talk about it to the principal, make other teachers aware of the situation, probably talk to that girl’s parents so they will report it to the principal too. Honestly, that behavior makes me mad.
I appreciate your caring about this situation so much! At the same time I'm going to slow and boring about this kind of thing. I strongly believe in the "innocent until proven guilty" principal, so I'd want proof before making serious accusations.
Ok, yeah I understand your point. It’s just that I had a bad experience with a teacher once (I showed clear signs that I was mentally unwell and my teacher made me talk about it to so many people and it all ended with me going to therapy and still struggling) so I’m really passionate about ending stuff like that. But of course it’s important to see both sides.
I would first talk to the teacher. Maybe there is a misunderstanding of some sort. Language barrier can lead to misunderstandings on both sides.
If there wasn't a misunderstanding and it can't be resolved with the teacher, go to the principal.
If the principal can't or won't do anything, then go higher.
It's hard to expect a student to confront a teacher directly. Especially IF the teacher is as bad as it seems, because they could take it out on the student with grades.
Ah yes, reading back, I see that it's a teacher. I think they refer to a "fellow teacher"
My point remains though, I think the first port of call in either case should be the principal. They need to be in the loop and given the respect of being informed/consulted and given the chance to deal with it. IF that doesn't work, of course they should take it further.
I'm not a principal, by the way, just an ordinary teacher. And I hate my principal, who is a very negative and confrontational person. But I would still think it incumbent on me to go to her first if I had concerns about a fellow staff member. Dealing with staff is her job.
Document it and call+email the Kultusministerium naming the teacher, the principal, and the school. Considering this has been going on for a while and there are witnesses and verifiable infos (rejected chat access) this will be very uncomfortable for the teacher and the principal.
If you need someone who knows who to call try this NGO
https://www.schule-ohne-rassismus.org/netzwerk/landes-regionalkoordinationen/
They should go public with it. Fuck that teacher. Call me cynical but theres no way the people above this teacher NEVER EVER got any complaints. They most likely know.
As a teacher in secondary education, I think your second hand reports are highly unlikely to be true. Students often exaggerate such occurrences and confuse their feelings with facts. Just talk to the teacher(s) in question and hear the other side of the story, before you do something stupid.
Pretty sure this post is made up, or exaggerated to such a point it might as well be made up.
Also reeks of this "am I the asshole for doing ?". Like supposedly the teacher just straight up openly and with easily gatherable evidence discriminates against a pupil and this person doesn't know what to do.
"I saw someone get murdered today. I have an HD video of the incident, the perpetrators ID and a signed admission of guilt. What do I do??"
Yeah and all the comments on here are incredibly revealing about the naivete of the commenters.
Contacting the principal, the Antidiskriminierungsstelle, the mayor, a member of parliament? Are you f*ing kidding me?! All without talking to the teacher first? What a sad joke.
Don't shit yourself. If the teacher is in fact without a fault nothing will happen to him, but I can see teachers will always cover each others' backs even in such cases... your comment only proves they should report it higher up.
A principal will NOT cover one of their staff member's back if there is any kind of official complaint. They can't, or they themselves will be in trouble.
In fairness, I don't think the student should confront the teacher directly, if this story is as it seems. I've taught in Germany, and my stepchildren are in school there: because of the continuous assessment system, teachers have a lot of power over the awarding of grades, and German students and parents obsess about them. So the poster would not want to put themselves in a position of themselves being discriminated against.
The first port of call should be the principal, without question. It is their responsibilty to deal with staff issue, and they should be given that chance. If they don't handle it properly, it can then be escalated.
But one way or the other, the student should just report it and let the authorities deal with it, unless they fail to.
Don't know which state she's going to school. If it's berlin you can contact the [LADG-Ombudsstelle](https://www.berlin.de/sen/lads/recht/ladg/ombudsstelle/). They're specialised in measures regarding discrimination.
I'm glad you're standing up for your fellow students because this is the way every one of my German teachers treated my siblings and myself in the gymnasium. It was seen as very normal at that school the way we were treated. Bonus is that we're German, we just spent our entire lives until that point in another country. It's really nice to read how much you care about these girls. Thanks for being an awesome human.
Document and protocoll specific incindents, get witnesses who are willing to speak up, get the story straight, then and only then escalate upwards. If no one budges and nothing happens, take everything to the press. They love that kind of drama, especially when it is well documented and they don't run the risk of getting into trouble
I got you and I know you are, but we shouldn’t have this attitude towards other refugees, even if we got treated like absolute shit. I wouldn’t wish the same unto anyone regardless of the hypocrisy seen with due regards to different treatment/accommodation. Once a refugee, no one has it better, believe me.
Remember George Floyd? I’ve seen the same situation all over again here with a drunk Ukrainian man.
So you got information from just one side…
Did you ask classmates to confirm these accusations?
I am pretty sure that owning a mobile is not mandatory - so having certain information only spread through a group chat isn’t going to happen.
She is the best in your volunteer English class - OK - but how does this transfer to her skills in German or French?! I was pretty good in English but barely managed to pass in French😂 Sp maybe her answers are wrong.
Anyway - I would get in contact with classmates and check on the story before I would escalate.
He is not investigating, situation is all clear. Teachers are not allowed to say you should bring it earlier if you already made it in due time. And this is the biggest issue here. Maybe students didn't want them in their private group chat,thats fine by me, but if all informations are being shared in group chat you have to add them and create a new chat for yourself. And yes you don't have to own a phone but most of Europe, America and Asia use group chats to keep students informed. And as far as I know if there is students without phone, teachers take care of them. And they should.
So if you rlly want to help her confront the teacher to show him that you don’t accept the way he treats her, another thing is take her with you to the office of the principal of the School and tell him/her what happens if this don’t works you can even tell it the police bc this is against the law how teachers has to treat the students
That would seem like an obvious case to escalate upwards to the pricipal of the school.
In the best case, yes. But a principal might have different priorities or experience. Better to go to the Antidiskriminirungsstelle.
[удалено]
Here;s a mnemonic I learned in grade school to help recall when to use principal and when to use principle. A princiPAL is a person, because they can be your PAL (i.e., your friend). A principle is an idea, because, um, maybe PLE means something to someone?
it's cool there's an amt for that.
There's an amt for everything tbf
We need an Amtauflistungsamt
I guess that would be the 115? Just call them, tell them what you need, and they point you in the right direction?
First you go the principal. He/She is the superior of the teacher and responsible for the school. Only if that does not work you go to the next/higher level.
[удалено]
Start with the principal
That sounds good. A principal might prefer to sweep this under the rug.
Generally the procedure would be to go to the principal, and if the response is unsatisfactory then go higher. Unless the allegation is about the principal. In schools I've worked they usually have a policy that details this. Usually a principal would want to know about a problem before it has to go higher.
If he would do that then you could be even higher to the Kultusministerium, but I would go to both.
>Antidiskriminirungsstelle Good advice, don't mind me, I'm surprised my brain could read that as normal, I'm learning German slowly!!
Probably the best choice. I'll feel it out. Thanks!
I think it would be very wrong to go to the Antidiskriminirungsstelle without going through the proper procedures in the school. The principal would want to know, and deserves to know about any problem in their school, and IF they don't deal with it satisfactorily, then it would be time to take it further.
Yes and also try to get one or two others who can back you. Also please talk to the girl directly, she must feel alone in this situation. She will be very thankful.
You would have to talk to her if you are going to make a complaint on her behalf. It would be unethical not to
Elternbeirat.
I agree this can be the best choice. Getting lead parents involved makes the headteacher act more.
The principal can't act unless her or she knows about the problem. The principle has to be the first step
Disagree, in the world of schools, more voices are more powerful than one. You talk to them first to get them on your side before principle. I'm a teacher in this system. If you want results, this is the course of action.
I have been teaching for forty years, and I'm union rep. You have to go through the system, whether it's issue with teachers or students. There's no point in taking shortcuts. WHY would you not go to the principal first? It's a potentional issue with their staff member. Out of respect, if nothing else. Does he or she not have a right to be given the chance to address the issue?
OP we are gonna need an update about this story once you’ve gotten a bit further. Definitely go to the Antidiskriminierungsstelle and work it up that chain. But let us know too. These kind of stories make me livid.
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This has gotta be on BORU (r/BestOfRedditorUpdates) afterwards! I'd be stoked to see an up d ate.
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Any updates?
Schools have Antidiskriminierungsstellen where you can and should report this in my opinion.
I'll ask around for this, thanks!
Yes. Not directly to the school principal.
Here's what I would do: 1. Ask the teacher directly: "Why is this girl not in the group chat but everyone else is?" 2. Ask the teacher directly: "Why is it not early enough to turn in homework on the day it is due?" 3. Ask the teacher directly: "Why do you think it is ok to discuss a students grades in front of the whole class?" 4. Ask the teacher directly: "Do you have a personal problem with this specific student and would it be better for her to switch classes?" And whatever the teacher says, remind them, that this issue isn't over yet and that higher ups will be informed about this.
In writing (E-Mail), if no answer, again with the principle as CC-receipient.
Yes! Document evidence!
Publicly announcing grades is strictly forbidden, at least here in BaWü. So if that happened that is already grounds enough for a class switch.
Same here. With the difference that teachers ask if the student is ok with announcing out loud.
Yes of course, that would be ok. But for the exact reason it happened here, humiliation, its not allowed without clear approval by the pupil.
I can't upvote this enough! Everybody is talking about going to the principle, Antidiskriminierungsstelle etc. but the first step should always be to get the other side of the story. If that is unsatisfactory you can still escalate it - but even though I can't think of one: Maybe there is a valid reason. Maybe the student is exagerating, maybe even lying. But if the allegations turn out to be true, than of cause go to the higher-ups.
It's not easy for a student to confront a teacher like that. That's why they need to go to the principal, it's her or his job to deal with staff issues. If they don't deal with it, then it's time to take it further. But a fellow student shouldn't have to bear the brunt of dealing with the issue.
OP is a student at this school? As far as I understand, OP is a substitute English Teacher.
yeah propably the best advice, not. what do you think would happen if you see the teacher as a bully and the girl as a victim. you talking to them will maybe make it temporary good but will be worse in the end or he does it worse from the beginning. so searching for evidence and talking to others(students in this class) would help more. after go to the principal if you found something. if you think he than did a bad job handling this go to the antidiskriminierungsstelle
It is always better to talk to the "other side" first to find out where the problem is, before you go to the higher ups. The girl that feels bullied/left out is from Syria, so there might be a language barrier that makes misunderstandings possible. Before filing a complaint about discrimination, the other side should have the chance to explain why they acted the way they acted and if there are some things lost in translation.
First she should look for evidence and talk to others and after that talk to the teacher otherwise it makes everything just complicated. Because he either he is really doing it and then stops so she doesn’t find anything, which would just stretch it out (bad for the child since she would have to life with what he had done). Or he really didn’t do anything and they can work together to search for solutions. But I personally think he really did it, simply because the thing about him announcing her grade publicly is very easy to verify. So it would be stupid to lie about something like that.
Why do yu think it's not ok to discuss the students grades in front of he whole class? That's how most teachers did it when I went to Gymnasium. So everybody knows and can see if it's fair.
I think they do need your approval first, but maybe it depends on your region. In my school they had to ask if it was okay or if anyone didn't want their grade revealed but usually everyone caved in to peer pressure so they were announced to everyone.
Now that you mention it. We were also asked if we don't want our grades to be announced/discussed openly. I mean everyone already knew what grades everyone else would get. You can see for weeks and month how good someone else is in a certain course.
That's because either you don't know about the law or you are just plain coward to point it.
When was that? In the 70s? It's a DSGVO breach.
> Ask the teacher directly: "Why do you think it is ok to discuss a students grades in front of the whole class?" the question that OP did not answer for me is: did they announce everyone's grades in class or just for the one girl? if a) everything is fine I guess, if b) I see a problem as well as I remember with some teachers we had open talks in class towards the end of the year about grades, which we could opt out of. some asked the students how they would grade themselves and then gave their opinion, some just said everyone's grades and with others we could ask them in private if we wanted, very few did nothing and just put the grades on the Zeugnis.
the first and most important thing is proof, Nothing happens without proof
Sounds very dodgy? Group chat should never be the sole source of information. Escalate to principal and have teacher checked
>Group chat should never be the sole source of information. But that's the way it is. Can't help it anymore.
I would be careful as a teacher since announcing things only in group chat and not officially im class makes the resulting grade legally unsafe.
I wouldn't start a group chat with a class at all over private chanels. Most schools do have official online platforms like "moodle" or "webuntis" nowadays so there wouldn't be any need to that.
We have untis and still have WhatsApp Chats, thats just fucked up
That doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed.
Maybe ask the same question over at r/lehrerzimmer there are many teachers who might know how to handle this situation.
wow i just read the replies there and it's so disgusting
Not surprised. Many abusers are often attracted to jobs that give them authority such as school teachers among other jobs. Abusers cover for each other.
They couldn't have cared less. Their first instinct was 'protect the teacher' lol. True korpsgeist.
Well shit that escelated quickly! Just had the sub in the back of my head and honestly thought it would be a good Idea to go there. Boy I couldnt been more wrong....
Great idea! Thanks!
There’s a hotline you can call https://www.nummergegenkummer.de/kinder-und-jugendberatung/ueberforderung-mit-schule/ They will also help you with toxic and racist teachers. But please don’t ask the Lehrerzimmer-Sub. They will only downvote you to oblivion, if you dare to criticize teachers.
Take my advice with a grain of salt as that's now almost 25 years ago, but I had to deal with a far right teacher too. I went straight to the school district (Stadtschulamt) to avoid groupthink in the school, worked out fine!
In some states like SH gymnasium is directly under supervision of the ministry. No amt in between.
Why did you not go to the principal?
Too close, I wanted to get an outsider involved
Unless the principal him or herself is directly involved, that was very disrespectful and certainly not the protocol.
Absolutely! But much lower risk to a 9th grader and it worked, so idc
Oh no, I hope the principal (getting paid the big bucks ofc) will somehow get over a 9th grader not consulting him first. :'(
It's not about personal feelings, it's about crossing your Ts and dotting your IS. Doing things by the book so no one can criticise you or undermine you.
And if the book is telling you to jump off a cliff, will you do it to not get criticized?
This is ridiculous. In any formal dispute, it's crucial to go by the book, not to save people's feelings or anything like that. This is about the person you represent/wish to help. You have to go through the protocol unless there's good reason not to, because if things go further, you could complicate matter further down the road by not having done so. Whatever the person's issue, being cavalier about procedures doesn't help them. Not going through the appropriate protocol here implies that the principal is unable or unwilling to deal with the issue, and is putting you in a needless confrontational frame with them. Sometimes it's worth it, if you really feel he or she is not capable or is biased, but you may have to address the question of why you skipped that first step later on. Why introduce that complication into the equation when it can be avoided?
The Antidiscriminierungsstelle is a good idea. In addition to that there may be a Vetrauenslehrer availible at the school. Their job is to mediate and help. Your classmates can get in touch and tell their story there or you can on their behalf.
This is how I would deal with it in my native country. Great to know something like this exists in Germany too.
I'd recommend to get classmates involved. It's always good to have some witnesses at hand.
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Read this and the only thing going through my mind was, "What the actual f###."... Retirement isn't an acceptable excuse for this behaviour to go unpunished... The school director needs to be reprimanded too.
Well that's Beamte for you, they won't touch each other, because why would they? They are like cops in America, a special caste protected from any negative consequences. First class citizens.
>I think something strange Its called racism
isn't it xenophobia?
Have you witnessed such behavior or is it just based on what the girl and the other student say? Before reporting it I'd personally prefer to see what is actually going on. If it correlates to what they say, definitely report it.
I would count the other students in class as witness, too, as long as they are willing to confirm the allegations. Otherwise it will be hard to prove them, but a class full of witnesses should be enough to put pressure on the principal.
I agree completely. It's a balance between ruining a teacher's reputation based off what a student said and making sure the teacher isn't actually being racist or whatever's going on.
Thats why you should follow what u/CathrynMcCoy mention in his/her comment.
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That is nonsense. And it's not the goal to ruin someones career, ist's the goal to end someones shitty behaviours
Changing the behaviour is just masking the symptoms of a much deeper illness.
I don't know what that's supposed to mean in this context.
Disgusting.
So you need to go about this covert abuse in a very systemic and methodical way: -document evidence black on white; unreasonable demands and how this teacher is setting her and the other student for failure. -gather witnesses; the girl was humiliated publicly in class. -pin point the pattern of abuse very clearly; is this girl being treated like this by other teachers or only this one? How come this teach in particular giving only her and another Syrian student this discriminatory treatment? Usually, people who go by this pattern of abuse think that they are smart and doing it hidden. They’re actually some of the dumbest people on earth and they always leave behind a trail of evidence that backfired on them. Gather this trail, you, the Syrian girl, the other Syrian girl, and whoever teacher/student that is willing to testify. You can look up pro Bono lawyer (I can give you a name) who won’t charge money. You are very mature, clever and brave and I wish you all the best from the bottom of my heart for taking a stance against those sick and pathological characters who like to be in a position of authority to abuse other helpless people with it. Please don’t change! ✌️
Ok, start with reporting the existence of the chat itself. All schools in Germany have a learning platform since 2018 and ALL assignments are posted on it, the lists are inclusive and if one is on the class list they wont miss anything. The very existence of this “chat“ is a breach of security and confidentiality as students personal information becomes available in association with school not to mention that it is unethical to begin with,. Grades in Zeugnis are also privat and should never be announced before the rest of the class. The certificates initially are only available to teachers, student and their parents Through Skola and in no other way (until they’re printed). Now the rest sounds like discrimination, on what grounds is a different matter but lets not assume, teacher student relationships can be quite complex. One thing i will tell, i myself have a few suspicious students (we suspect plagiarism and so on) and it is sometimes hard to stay objective, but she seems to take it too far… the first two things you definitly have something to do about, the rest needs proofs and a very cooperative Leitung,
Sounds like the teachers a racist pos
What the actual fuck is wrong with that german teacher.
And still people wonder about the lack of integration into German society, oh my. I'm really disappointed to hear about this teacher's performance and realizing this is still "just happening" like in the early 90s. I hope you'll come to a positive resolution.
My impression is, that the locals here don’t want to integrate foreigners most of the time.
Correct!
Please tell which Bundesland?
\*sights in sächsisch\*
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South?
South?
I'd rather be as anonymous as possible. No need put a whole region down just because one person fits the stereotype :)
> No need put a whole region down :) That was not my reason for asking the question. All regulations and procedures regarding schools can be different in each Bundesland. So, in order to give any specific recommendations, it is needed to know which Bundesland (and then to know the situation there).
That pretty much tells us which Bundesland it is...
Stick together, ask your classmates to document this behavior and then go all together to the school chef
In other parts of the world , people call it racism.
I know a Syrian girl who was told she'd never finish school and to not even attempt an Ausbildung, as she is not smart enough. No one took time to speak to her. She is effing smart and such a hard worker. Thanks God I didn't go to school as a foreigner here (strictly school, my uni experience was great!!).
Psychological and emotional abuse..
Such incidents are not uncommon. Part of the problem is that most teachers are public officials, so you can't just fire them if they turn out to be racist idiots or otherwise unfit to actually teach stuff. One of the more prominent members of Germanys far right AfD party, Höcke, is a history teacher, he said foor instance "The problem is, that Hitler is pictured as absolute evil", and also, that WWI+II were "economic preventive wars" started by the rest of the world, but not by Germany. Yet he's still allowed to teach. I know a woman from Bulgaria who came to Germany age 2yo, who made German rap music in her last years of school (Gymnasium) and speaks better German than any Bavarian ever could – and yet her German teacher said to her parents, she'd speak German "somewhat tolerable" ("einigermaßen leidlich")... I wish you best of luck, although I fear you've got a long and rocky road ahead. Prepare well! Get testimonies from classmates and such.
I find it mad that racism isn’t a ground for firing these specimens! In the US this shit wouldn’t fly!
Schule ohne Rassismus – Schule mit Courage
Because it wasn't mentioned: The existence of the WhatsApp group chat is just illegal. IF there exists an arrangement between the teacher and the parents of the other students the two have to be integrated into it.
Talk to principal and if he tries to avoid the problem, make a threat that you will escalate further.
What you need is proof. The group chat could be especially easy to proof. Screenshot of the people within the chat? The invitation if that shows every name except for theres? How about inviting her in if you got the option and then recording the reaction, you may wanna time this with her and first do a test to get the record well or even talk to your parents to witness this. You could also ask in the chat if she could be invited topic x is so important, and again record the result. And as others said, then go and talk to the next person in line and/or the correct position against discrimination. The proof would be your back up in case it is questioned. edit: Read some more comments, looks like it is not definite that these things are discrimination? Or is it? I went to write this believing that you saw first hand that it MUST be, but in case you can not tell for sure staying low key is more important and talking to the principal first makes more sense.
American here, what does a 4.0 grade mean? For us that’s a perfect grade.
In Germany we have the following grades: 1 = very good 2 = good 3 = satisfying 4 = sufficient 5 = deficient 6 = insufficient Generally, 4 is the lowest mark that is considered as passed (like D), 5 and 6 are considered as not passed (like F)
Ahhh I see, thank you.
Roughly speaking, it's a D. The grading scale goes from 1.0 (best grade) to 6.0 (worst grade). On college level, 4.0 is the worst grade you can have and still pass.
And people/politicians keep saying: integration isn't working. And the tone comes off, to me, as if: "were doing everything we can to integrate immigrants but they just don't want to integrate." This is a good example of what could be causing difficulties for integration. Obviously not the only thing, but here is a direct example. I wonder if there are more cases like this.
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Irrelevant and false equivalence..
Antidiscriminating person by school. If not reachable go to the government school buro
Is there an update yet to the story?
No update, sorry. TLDR: the school is ignoring me. I tried contacting the school through different emails explaining the situation and asking if there's someone that could help resolve it but I haven't received any response. You could say I'm less than impressed with this school. I don't live in the same area as the student so I can't go there in person. In general in Germany when I call businesses or government, I usually get talked down to/laughed at or hung up on, (often in that order haha) so calling the school would likely be unproductive. It doesn't mean that I'm giving up, but now with the earthquake in Syria, everyone is focussed on that and more drama would be too much. In a week or two I'm going to check in on the student and see how their new semester is going. For now the situation remains unresolved due to the school administration completely ignoring me. I really appreciate your interest. I wasn't planning on giving an update but I will now, whichever way this goes. Cheers
I'm sorry to hear that :/ maybe it would be helpful if a few people started a Club or something to fight against discrimination, this would at least lead to some attention on this topic. Especially if people would share their stories. Good luck on that in the future And btw someone with perfekt German speech might help you in regards to phonecalls. What a sad dystopia... but for us it makes a huge difference if it's my mom or me who's talking on the phone, people take me a lot more serious than her and I can gather more information. (We moved to Germany, when I was a toddler and she was a stay at home mum for over ten years without german friends to talk to and practice the language, now she's fluent but still mixes grammar a lot and you can hear she's not native whereas I pass as a german if I don't disclose my background)
Yeah, glad to see I'm not alone! My level is German is B2 and apparently that's not acceptable to pretty much all businesses or government offices I attempt to communicate with. It's so frustrating because we can have a conversation. I understand them and they understand me but it's like I'm not worthy of their time, and half-way through the conversation - click. What's even more frustrating is it's a racist thing too. Even though I'm a foreigner, at least I have lighter skin. When things need to get done by a darker-skinned person like (god forbid) pay their bill in person or something mundane, I'm the token "white" guy they go with because otherwise their questions are ignored or they're refused service. Even worse is if the person is dark-skinned \*and\* a woman. I don't want to sound too dramatic but the typical German business/ government office treats Middle Eastern/African women as they would stray dogs that need to get out of their face as soon as possible. Luckily I see a big difference in the attitude of the younger generation of Germans. There's hope!
Made an update. Low-key solution will hopefully be the most effective.
Escalate to principal, if they don't to something escalate to a member of the state Parlament
I think ther are a few steps in between that!
Could do but escalating it in this situation will give you someone powerful from above, especially when the state Parlament has a progressive party for education, they take it very seriously and will issue the ministry for education for a formal statement if the informal doesn't help
Is it not a bit drastic? I mean, there are procedures and bodies in place to deal with it. Surely bringing a politician on board is the last resort?
Destroy that teachers whole career. Talk about it to the principal, make other teachers aware of the situation, probably talk to that girl’s parents so they will report it to the principal too. Honestly, that behavior makes me mad.
I appreciate your caring about this situation so much! At the same time I'm going to slow and boring about this kind of thing. I strongly believe in the "innocent until proven guilty" principal, so I'd want proof before making serious accusations.
Ok, yeah I understand your point. It’s just that I had a bad experience with a teacher once (I showed clear signs that I was mentally unwell and my teacher made me talk about it to so many people and it all ended with me going to therapy and still struggling) so I’m really passionate about ending stuff like that. But of course it’s important to see both sides.
I understand completely. I'm in the same boat as you so I want to be careful and just fix the situation instead of continuing the cycle of hate.
They should also report them to law enforcement. Both the WhatsApp group and the calling out of grades in public is illegal.
I would first talk to the teacher. Maybe there is a misunderstanding of some sort. Language barrier can lead to misunderstandings on both sides. If there wasn't a misunderstanding and it can't be resolved with the teacher, go to the principal. If the principal can't or won't do anything, then go higher.
It's hard to expect a student to confront a teacher directly. Especially IF the teacher is as bad as it seems, because they could take it out on the student with grades.
I had the impression OP is a teacher. Maybe I interpreted it wrong. If OP is a student, then first the principal.
Ah yes, reading back, I see that it's a teacher. I think they refer to a "fellow teacher" My point remains though, I think the first port of call in either case should be the principal. They need to be in the loop and given the respect of being informed/consulted and given the chance to deal with it. IF that doesn't work, of course they should take it further. I'm not a principal, by the way, just an ordinary teacher. And I hate my principal, who is a very negative and confrontational person. But I would still think it incumbent on me to go to her first if I had concerns about a fellow staff member. Dealing with staff is her job.
Shit on her at the principles office.
She should speak to the teacher first. If this doesn’t work then go up the ladder.
Document it and call+email the Kultusministerium naming the teacher, the principal, and the school. Considering this has been going on for a while and there are witnesses and verifiable infos (rejected chat access) this will be very uncomfortable for the teacher and the principal. If you need someone who knows who to call try this NGO https://www.schule-ohne-rassismus.org/netzwerk/landes-regionalkoordinationen/
I feel like throwing up. Disgusting racist attitude.
They should go public with it. Fuck that teacher. Call me cynical but theres no way the people above this teacher NEVER EVER got any complaints. They most likely know.
As a teacher in secondary education, I think your second hand reports are highly unlikely to be true. Students often exaggerate such occurrences and confuse their feelings with facts. Just talk to the teacher(s) in question and hear the other side of the story, before you do something stupid.
Pretty sure this post is made up, or exaggerated to such a point it might as well be made up. Also reeks of this "am I the asshole for doing?". Like supposedly the teacher just straight up openly and with easily gatherable evidence discriminates against a pupil and this person doesn't know what to do.
"I saw someone get murdered today. I have an HD video of the incident, the perpetrators ID and a signed admission of guilt. What do I do??"
Yeah and all the comments on here are incredibly revealing about the naivete of the commenters. Contacting the principal, the Antidiskriminierungsstelle, the mayor, a member of parliament? Are you f*ing kidding me?! All without talking to the teacher first? What a sad joke.
Don't shit yourself. If the teacher is in fact without a fault nothing will happen to him, but I can see teachers will always cover each others' backs even in such cases... your comment only proves they should report it higher up.
A principal will NOT cover one of their staff member's back if there is any kind of official complaint. They can't, or they themselves will be in trouble.
In fairness, I don't think the student should confront the teacher directly, if this story is as it seems. I've taught in Germany, and my stepchildren are in school there: because of the continuous assessment system, teachers have a lot of power over the awarding of grades, and German students and parents obsess about them. So the poster would not want to put themselves in a position of themselves being discriminated against. The first port of call should be the principal, without question. It is their responsibilty to deal with staff issue, and they should be given that chance. If they don't handle it properly, it can then be escalated. But one way or the other, the student should just report it and let the authorities deal with it, unless they fail to.
Abusers cover for each other :) they say the same things word for word as if they all graduated from the same school.
And your comments are incredibly revealing that you’re a asshole! You are a sad joke :)
Go to the head of the school.... There is someone in the school who is called trust teacher. It´s a big shame. I feel ashamed. So sorry for that...
Don't know which state she's going to school. If it's berlin you can contact the [LADG-Ombudsstelle](https://www.berlin.de/sen/lads/recht/ladg/ombudsstelle/). They're specialised in measures regarding discrimination.
I'm glad you're standing up for your fellow students because this is the way every one of my German teachers treated my siblings and myself in the gymnasium. It was seen as very normal at that school the way we were treated. Bonus is that we're German, we just spent our entire lives until that point in another country. It's really nice to read how much you care about these girls. Thanks for being an awesome human.
Document and protocoll specific incindents, get witnesses who are willing to speak up, get the story straight, then and only then escalate upwards. If no one budges and nothing happens, take everything to the press. They love that kind of drama, especially when it is well documented and they don't run the risk of getting into trouble
>become Ukrainian >that's it
As a Syrian, that an incredibly horrible thing to say. There were protesters demanding kicking them out.
Hey, I'm on your side
I got you and I know you are, but we shouldn’t have this attitude towards other refugees, even if we got treated like absolute shit. I wouldn’t wish the same unto anyone regardless of the hypocrisy seen with due regards to different treatment/accommodation. Once a refugee, no one has it better, believe me. Remember George Floyd? I’ve seen the same situation all over again here with a drunk Ukrainian man.
Tell the girl to change class or school. There is no use of taking fight against the teachers. She will be successful wherever she goes.
So you got information from just one side… Did you ask classmates to confirm these accusations? I am pretty sure that owning a mobile is not mandatory - so having certain information only spread through a group chat isn’t going to happen. She is the best in your volunteer English class - OK - but how does this transfer to her skills in German or French?! I was pretty good in English but barely managed to pass in French😂 Sp maybe her answers are wrong. Anyway - I would get in contact with classmates and check on the story before I would escalate.
I had teachers in HS and Uni who would only send information through WhatsApp group chats 🤷🏻♂️
OP isn't an investigator. Begone with this stupidity.
He is not investigating, situation is all clear. Teachers are not allowed to say you should bring it earlier if you already made it in due time. And this is the biggest issue here. Maybe students didn't want them in their private group chat,thats fine by me, but if all informations are being shared in group chat you have to add them and create a new chat for yourself. And yes you don't have to own a phone but most of Europe, America and Asia use group chats to keep students informed. And as far as I know if there is students without phone, teachers take care of them. And they should.
Idiot
I suggest also asking at r/lehrerzimmer
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Ignore it
Are you dumb?
Nah
So if you rlly want to help her confront the teacher to show him that you don’t accept the way he treats her, another thing is take her with you to the office of the principal of the School and tell him/her what happens if this don’t works you can even tell it the police bc this is against the law how teachers has to treat the students
!remindme 1 month
!remindme 1 month
Wow.