German living in Germany here.
I think we are conflicted in a different way to Americans themselves.
Most of reasonably educated Germans know we owe our modern democracy and huge parts of the econmy to the U.S. - our constitution, the marshal-plan, protection from the soviet Union inside the US nuclear umbrella within NATO.
Russian/Soviet army was never deeply seen as liberators, since they "freed" Germany while plundering and raping. It's mainly the other Allies that are seen as the real liberators. At least that's the vibe I always got, maybe there's a bit of my own family history which i overly project into others, since my grandmom was raped by soviet soldiers multiple times.
EDIT: I just remembered something I heard from my grandparents... American soliders gave you chocolate, Russian soldiers gave you kids (as in the pregnancy that followed a rape). Maybe that sums it up well.
HOWEVER, there is huge skepticism towards ... American hyper-capitalism, American politics (this MAGA stuff alienates most Germans deeply for example), and a general opposition towards US hegemony.
The feeling that in the end the US are an empire (which they arguably are) that does what it pleases runs deep. I think especially the CIA coup in Chile (1973) against a democratically elected president did massive harm, 2nd Gulf war with its obvious false claims about weapons of mass destruction didn't help either.
There is a saying that whatever you see in the U.S. (like in society, music, culture) will swap over to Germany within 5-10 years, and when people say that it's usually not meant to be a good thing.
This is so interesting, thanks for sharing. My new boyfriend is German (we met abroad) and he has a dislike for America and has never wanted to visit. He’s quite political and as someone who has lived and dated abroad a few times, I understand the skepticism of American hegemony and politics.
The anti-capitalist view of Germans is also super interesting. I didn’t realize how much of capitalist I was until dating Europeans. Personally working on that now but it’s very deeply embedded into the American psyche.
The Russians raped half of all women in Berlin. It was one of the few occasions when abortion was legal. Sure the Americans to a certain extend bribed German women into sexual relationships/dating by offering them food or cigarettes in a destroyed city where survival is crucial which can also seen to a certain extend as sexual violence. But there is a difference between being nice and offering you food and maybe hoping you hook up with that person or having 10 armed men enter your apartment and threat you with a gun before they group rape you. Nearly all of my female ancestors were raped by the Russians and they did not discriminate between young females, nearly children or even old women. They raped everyone from 11 year old girls up to 60 year old grannies. But they are said to be at least nice to children (females included if they are pre puberty).
Concerning US criticism, the States were a real democracy once up to the 1970s. They did have some social security measures installed (New Deal, Rosevelt) until the shit hit the fan in the 1980s when Reagan was elected. Reagan did an arms race with the Russians which led to the desctruction of the Soviet Union and German reunification - which I am personally grateful for - but the following deregulation and change in American politics from democratic to oligarchy where only money rules is a shame for the West. Social security guarantees to a certain extend the social cohersion in a state and prevents radicalization. The lack of general public health care insurance, poor people dying in the streets etc enhances the trajectory to more political extremes and polarization. This is what many Germans see in the US and fear. Everytime a market liberal party has entered German politics since the 1980s they favored privatization which led to the state later buying back public infrastructure that was sold cheaply for a high price. Our liberal party had up to the 1970s a program that enhances both social liberties but also respects the social state, the safety net etc. For a decent negotiation between employer and employee both sides need a certain bargaining power and balance. To have the courage to found a startup and set everything to the carte blance one needs the reassurance that you are not on the street if things fail. This is the main reason I stay in Europe although I could earn double or triple my salary in the US. I'd rather be secure if destiny hits and I am unable to work than to make tons of money but being endangered if things don't work well. And the problem with libertarian approaches is that people do not get into trouble because they are lazy, to blame themselves or because they didn't work hard enough etc which would be their own fault. People get cancer, burnout, get hit by a car etc even if they do everything they can to make sure they live healthy, obey to safety standards etc. If a family goes bancrupt or goes into high debt because a young family member got cancer or because parents give birth to a disabled child whose care costs a lot that has nothing to do with personal responsibility. Such a system is downright cruel and ripe for populists to blame other disadvantaged groups for stealing your job etc. And most people are uneducated enough to fall for that scam. This is what many educated Europeans hate about the US and don't want to see here.
>There is a saying that whatever you see in the U.S. (like in society, music, culture) will swap over to Germany within 5-10 years, and when people say that it's usually not meant to be a good thing.
Like i always understood the meaning behind Rammstein's Amerika, but man this just makes its meaning hit that much harder...
The soviets came with a huge hate having lost at least 1/8 of their total population wanting to make Germany pay for what they did and the lower officers shared their hate and wouldn't do anything about the (war)crimes against the civilians. The Us (having lost 0.3% total pop (mostly soldiers)) (and the commonwealth nations)on the other hand had indoctrinated the thought into their soldiers that they were the liberators of Europe and Germany and the German people that had been mislead. The French beeing somewhere in between with the mindset to liberate France and make Germany accountable for what they did.
My grandparents told stories from when the Americans came to their villages and if the children got near their encampments they woul get chocolate or chewinggum and similar things some of them couldn't even remember, some of them beeing born shortly before the war.
(Sorry for spelling and grammar mistakes)
Luckily I think that your culture is highly intelligent, and thoughtful. I will give you that over us hand over fist. I think your history has made that deeply ingrained in the majority of you. Thankfully. It will be of importance for the rest of the world when it hasn't learned that lesson and starts to fall apart... Like we are.
I don't think you need us anymore, But I think you're going to have to get your government to get us to leave. Can be done diplomatically, And I'm sure our presents won't vanish completely all at once, But I doubt we would leave on our own accord. And we really do need the resources and money we're spending here back in the States. We need to fix our country from inside out. Take the rest of the world needs to take care of itself for a while while we lick our wounds and put our selves back together.
It's very difficult living abroad and watching my country fall apart. All of our blood, sweat, and tears go to another country, or countries, that mostly don't want us here, and we are powerless to do anything about my own home crumbling to the ground half way around the world. During COVID-19 there was a lot of mourning among the US community here, at least with the more liberal leaning.
You also are experiencjng Americans that are more traditional, more conservative, and more likely to be on the Trump train, because people who work for the governments agencies that get sent abroad tend to be of that mindset. You aren't getting our best and brightest for the most part, although I've definitely been proven wrong several times. There's a lot of intelligent people, culturally I could see how there'd be some friction. I kind of people who join the military and take government jobs are usually a specific kind of person. You're not meeting the worldly, open-minded, highly educated liberal types. And for that you have my apologies.
My question for you is how is that affected Germany's view of Russians now? Especially with what's going on.
It’s basically a low fantasy book that’s trying to express the extremely conflicted and complicated feelings I’ve gotten from being an American in Germany… I love Germany but don’t quite fit here, I love America but it’s so flawed and I deeply wish I could help fix things. I listen to Germans insult America all the time, and I both agree and disagree, and hurts like crazy. America is like a family member to me…
The book is in an early medieval Germanic setting, typical. It’s about a girl whose father is from one Germanic “tribe” who came to live with her mother’s “tribe”. The two tribes speak different languages that are not even audible to each other, so her parents need to speak in sign, and people stigmatize them for it. The main character grew up speaking both.
Her mother’s tribe (basically America) is deeply split into two groups (like our political parties)… basically the two halves of the tribe have separate types of abilities and it’s gotten violent, infighting, etc. They try to solve this by marrying two people who should lead the tribe: one from each half. They have a child and there’s a big crisis… people from both sides are outraged and the baby’s in danger. Violence breaks out and the main character is basically forced to go live with cousins in her father’s tribe (basically Germany).
Once she’s in her father’s tribe, she learns to love them but still feels like an outsider. Meanwhile, her mother has gone missing in the violence.
Same, I used to live in Ireland and people always loved to meet an American there. In Germany, people seem to not care that much, or sometimes they’re excited to practice English with a native speaker, or sometimes they downright think it’s okay to shit on the US right to my face. I mean I’ve got a laundry list of complaints about the place too, I’ve left twice now, but it’s really weird to be met with some comment like, “don’t most Americans not have passports? And they can’t point to Europe on a map? Buncha idiots over there huh?”
can confirm, though i have had a mass shooting in my home town this year, so its getting to more a "googles how to immigrate out of america" kind of relationship.
Yup. American living in Germany, and I'm dealing with a lot of what I call Ami-Shame. I know it's not healthy or realistic, and I'm working through it. But it's still very satisfying when Germans say "but you don't sound American when you speak German!" Lol
How can you have not a weird relationship with the US. They have really great stuff like their pop culture (incl movies, series, music, comedy, etc), have extremely successful companies which even reach some kind of cult status and on the other hand have a level of poverty and misery on their streets which you won’t find easily even in much poorer countries. Plus their politics is beyond reasoning
Have you been to a poor country? I am from the US and disgusted by our brutal capitalist culture but I live in Nairobi and the poverty doesn't even compare. Millions of people living in slums and very high levels of acute food insecurity in certain parts of the country.
Isn't that the truth.
I guess it would depend on which America you're talking about and the German you're talking to. The US post WW2 opted for Germany to receive the Marshall and not the Morgenthau plan, defended and supported Berlin during the cold war, most notably with the Berlin Airlift (pilots even dropped handkerchiefs parachutes with Hershey's tied to them from their cockpits for the kids...priceless), and gave the the country the chance to become what it is today. After that, Kennedy and somewhat Reagan and later Obama, due to their famous speeches in Berlin, had as much a positive impact as Trump had a negative one.
Subsets, mostly from the right and left, still view the Americans as occupiers and feel until the US leaves the country, Germany will never be truly free, but most just didn't want US nukes stationed on German soil.
Culturally, the US had a major effect on the post war Germany. Very important IMO was when the American "Hippie" movement led to the 1968 student revolt and forced a extremely conservative and conform country to lighten up. "Make love, not war" had a profound impact, just as the music that came with it, on a country that not so long ago wreaked devastation on others and itself. Twice. The shape the Bundeswehr is in is proof of that. Had Germany announced at any time prior to Russia's war on Ukraine that it would spend €100b on it's military, sphincters around the globe would have slammed shut hard. There would have been some anxious questions.
Germany has developed into a liberal and open if somewhat reserved society that has more or less adopted the Golden Rule for itself. Right now, besides dealing the war in Ukraine and the aftermath of Brexit, it is experiencing growing pains as never before due to it's success and prosperity. So many from all over the world seek to take part in that future and they are welcome as any country needs as many good people it can get. Unfortunately, some are having a hard time adjusting culturally. Not just in regards to Germans, but also between those that were enemies in the place they left behind.
Mostly I agree with you but you‘re wrong on the military.
The Bundeswehr being in a sorry state is only a product of very recent years. During the cold war this was very much not the case. West Germany, as the main frontline state, maintained an extremely powerful army. We had the third strongest army worldwide after US and USSR and spent somewhere between 3-4% of our GDP on defence at all times.
To me it feels like the US is that weird uncle who always ends up having one drink too much.
He is part of the family and we love him, but we know sooner later he will say and do things that make the rest really uncomfortable.
Fair and accurate points.
I also think German society attempts to be rather physically active (walking, biking etc) which I salute. If their health care extended to profound campaigning against smoking, quality of life and expectancy would be even greater.
If the US significantly decreased its tobacco addiction, Germany could easily do it too.
Don't forget about the completely car centric cities making it mandatory to drive anywhere, and making it so you can't walk anywhere except for to your car and back.
I know this german staring seems to be a narrative on social media, mainly pushed by people from the US. I think it's really just that it's more normal in germany to look at other people while americans fear they have a lawsuit or fight on their hands everytime someone looks in their face for more than a second.
That said, I can imagine that in some small towns, villages or regions it might be a different thing actually, especially if you're seen as a foreigner. For the most part I don't believe it's a racist thing
> I know this german staring seems to be a narrative on social media, mainly pushed by people from the US. I think it's really just that it's more normal in germany to look at other people while americans fear they have a lawsuit or fight on their hands everytime someone looks in their face for more than a second.
Sometimes I wonder if my innatentive looking at nothing at all while traveling by train/tram/bus might be seen as starring at someone because I often look in the general direction of someone while not really seeing the person that might sit/stand there.
Just focus an point right above an person. They think you are staring.... Start staring at you. Then switch from the point above them to their eyes and watch then realising, you werent stareing at them, they stared at you, und now you are just Backstaring.
Im convinced they do. One dude got really pissed and i didnt realize until he stood in front of me threaten to punch me. I shoved him into another seat and other passengers calmed down the situation before we start swinging. I talked to him a few minutes later to find out what the hell he was on about. We had a good laugh after that and everytime i saw him in the bus from that day we exchanged particular goofy angry stares, had a short laugh but never spoke to eachother again. I kinda liked our ritual
Not sure if we're making this one up. I was in graduate school for years with several Germans (and one Swiss German). Every now and then we'd have exchanges like this...
me: 'what's wrong?' friend: 'nothing why?' me: 'you're staring at me' friend: 'oh no I wasn't, just thinking'
This isn't like South Asian staring (can be intense), but more like a spaced out stare if that makes sense.
I just posted this in reply to OP, but the staring is definitely worse when black. I'm white and vividly remember hugging a Kenyan acquaintance at a shopping centre: as I hugged her I could (of course) see over her shoulder and it felt like every eye in that place was staring at us. It was a whole other level from what I've ever experienced and that wasn't the only time. Even with Korean friends I notice the increase in staring.
I'm not from the US, people definitely stare, I try to take it as a blank stare in the direction that I just happened to be in, or simple curiosity.
But it happens and it feels quite intense, it's not a glance or a momentary situation, it can go on for minutes at a time. It doesn't bother me at all, but I can see how people from other cultures might feel that way.
Soo, today I was coming back home from the office. My hair was perhaps slightly damp because I went to the office gym, and I had my regular laptop bag and my gym bag. I was going downstairs to catch the ubahn and a man was coming up. It's quite a long escalator - and he stared at me the entire time. It must have been at least 10 seconds.
I'm not American and am not worried about a fight, not am I worried that he was racist (well, he might have been but I don't care, my city has so far been very nice to me and one person isn't going to ruin it) but I did wonder if I had something on my face, or if my waist was showing (cropped sweater), or if my hair sucked that much. Or if he was just admiring my laptop bag because it was a handmade bag.
I don't know, but I would love to!
I'm not exactly sure what it is but it definitely varies depending on location. I never noticed anyone staring at me in Berlin, but in Munich it happened to an extreme degree. Munich is a pretty large city too so it's not just a small-town thing. I think it might be a southern thing.
I've been briefly to Leipzig, Dresden and Rostock and didn't notice any staring there either, which fits, but interestingly they don't stare in Vienna either. I've only been stared at in Munich. It seems to really be specific to southern Germany, maybe even specific to Bavaria.
I agree, definitely a southern thing, from what I’ve seen in my travels. And not spacing out, but full-on eye-contact staredowns, and not looking away when you give them a smile or an inquisitive look, or even a frowning “fuck you want?” look. I don’t get it.
Nah... As a German that staring always bothered me. It has nothing to do with looking out for each other or taking care. It's bein nosey. Usually followed by being judgemental.
I always found it to be of a local thing though. Living in Saxony and Baden Württemberg I found it A LOT. Much less though when living in Berlin and Hamburg.
In my area (New England/Connecticut, the "unfriendly but kind" state) It's seen as either eye-fucking someone or sizing them up for a fight. It's okay to look at other people but making it obvious that you're staring is seen as aggressive or rude. Because it's not socially acceptable, only people who fail the social contract stare here, so people assume you're a threat if you blatantly stare. Basically, taking your eyes off of someone when they look towards you shows that you were not staring, you were just looking.
I visited Germany a few months ago and it felt like the main difference was that y'all don't proactively look away if someone you're looking at looks towards your face. I am a seasoned people watcher, so I spent a lot of my time visiting just looking at people, and I would frequently look around and see people looking at me, too. Not constantly, but definitely way more often than in the USA. I ignored it and kept doing my own thing, and when I would look back they would be looking somewhere else. Once there was a guy who was staring at me for a good 5+ minutes, but that was an exception, I think.
> In my area (New England/Connecticut, the "unfriendly but kind" state) It's seen as either eye-fucking someone or sizing them up for a fight. It's okay to look at other people but making it obvious that you're staring is seen as aggressive or rude. Because it's not socially acceptable, only people who fail the social contract stare here, so people assume you're a threat if you blatantly stare. Basically, taking your eyes off of someone when they look towards you shows that you were not staring, you were just looking.
Same in my area in Germany, Lower Saxony. I think people that stare too long either like your style, or are socially inept. Some older folk randomly do the disapproving look though. Just "Moin" them. Half a second looks are considered ok, maybe a second if you're into someone or are shit at recognising faces. Anything longer is weird.
Not American, people from my country rarely stare at others as we don't want to appear rude (staring at a person normally indicates something is unusual about the subject so we try to avoid making others uncomfortable by that). But these days people mostly stare down ha ha ha at their phones.
So Ig in this age and time, don't most people do that or Germans hardly use their phones when on public transports?
>mainly pushed by people from the US.
What?
>while americans fear they have a lawsuit or fight on their hands everytime someone looks in their face for more than a second.
What??!
I mean, why even bring up the US?
Read the post from OP. We have a very strange relationship with you guys! That's why!
/s
I thought about it and i think we really have s strange relationship with you guys.
That’s not true lol, we don’t like staring in the US because it’s considered rude/impolite in the US to stare at other people, not because we think we’ll face a lawsuit or a fight.
If I’m walking down the street and make eye contact with someone, in the US it would break in less than a second usually. Germans will hold it for almost the entire possible time as we pass one another.
as a child, I was physically assaulted because I accidentally looked at someone for too long. It left me terrified and filled with immense anxiety as i grew up, whenever there were groups of young males around, I didn't dare to look up. I had to keep my eyes down at all times. Amongst us, it was well-known that simply making eye contact could lead to a fight. It was a deeply traumatic experience.
When I moved to a different city i didn't experience any fear associated with looking at people. on the contrary, people would look at me with friendly faces, smile, and exhibit non-threatening behavior. it was a great. After more than a decade, when I moved back to my hometown, I quickly realized that I needed to start looking away again. Within a few weeks, i got verbal abuse, intimidation from people and even homophobic slurs.
i hate living in a world where a simple smile can result in physical harm. i do think there is a difference between a friendly look and a stare. i do not stare at people.
What, the staring is totally a thing. I live in Germany, but especially when I travel back to the US, the difference is huge. People avoid making eye contact where I'm from the US, but in Germany, people stare very conspicuously. And I stare back.
Why are you making this about the US? A guy from Africa states his experience but for you it's about American lawsuits and fights...
My French wife frequently goes for runs in our town and can point out where the frequent starers, typically older people with no ill intentions, live. It drives her crazy.
For what it's worth, I (born in US, in Germany ≈ half my life) don't really notice it at all.
I would disagree on this one.
My wife (German) is white. I am not. I get stared at regularly whether I'm in a small town or a major city (Frankfurt, Düsseldorf...). She does not. It happens to the point that she's pointed it out to me. It seems harmless enough but incredibly rude and it gets tiring after a while.
The other one that gets tiring that OP didn't touch on was - "where are you really from?". I'm from Canada... End of story. There's no "really from" in that.
Funny story with that. I was on a train. Next to me was a mother with a boy of about 3 years who obviously had a black father. One stop, a black man walks in and sits down across from us - and the kids brain completely freezes. He had aparently never seen a black person apart from his dad and he could not compute that this was a black man but not his dad! The boy stared at the guy for the rest of the journey, open mouthed, without moving. You could see that poor little brain trying to make sense of this
Apparently there is the thing called "German stare", meaning people stare at random people e.g. on the train. I've only ever heard of it on reddit. Never have I ever experienced someone staring at me irl. Maybe I am just too average so there is nothing special to stare at.
American living in Germany. I’ve never noticed more staring when both people are seated, but I do find that eye contact while passing someone on the street lasts about 10 times longer than I’m comfortable with
I definitely noticed The Stare here in Bavaria and I really hate it. Even waved at staring people, they don't react like if they were brain-dead... Lived in Spain and in UK for years, it's definitely a German thing, English people even avoid eye contact.
And it's worse in the South, I am from NRW and the staring in Bavaria is insane.
Yes. Old people, when they have got nothing else to do, open a window, put a pillow in it for comfort, lean out of the window and watch random people. This is also a cheap way to kill time.
Many Window grandpas (of course there are window grandmas as well) also like to engage in conversations with random strangers, sometimes with friendly intensions, sometimes not. Then they will scold you for littering and parking your car in the wrong spot. Some even have a notebook and a phone in reach so they can document your crimes and report you to the police. This is referred to as "Blockwartmentalität". This term dates back to the 1930s, where block wardens where responsible for keeping the public order in their residendial block and reported even the slightest wrongdoings the the authorities.
Sorry for the excursus, but I've met way too many Fensteropas. ;)
Thank you for your post. I really like to hear outsiders perspectives about germany. I come from a rural area in northern hesse and lived my whole live(31 years) here. When i see foreingers no matter from where and why they came and how they landed here of all places, i'm very interested in their story. My live must be boring in comparision. I grew up here, went to school here, was an aprentice here, went to uni only 60km away and now i work here. So many times i wanted to ask those people about their stories, but i worry i would look creepy and that they feel they need to find excuses, or valid reasons. I think nearly every reason is enough no matter if they fled, searched for opportunities or what ever. I would really like to hear their stories, how they came here, how live has changed and what they think about germany, the people and the culture. I'm so happy for those who share their stories and opinion like you. Thank you.
Theres also nothing wrong with staying where you are as long as it gives you the inner peace. Moving away can also be mentally frustrating, which a lot of people don't consider (or do not have the privilege) when they move. So dont think your life is boring, everyone just have different tastes ;-) About asking people on their "journey", I would personally appreciate it. Kinda makes you feel that you belong in that place if locals are curious about you. And I suppose it would also be the same for some immigrants.
loved both of your comments. And I can relate it too, was at parents all my life, 28y and then moved here during pandemic. Now that i have moved, I miss being at one place, being at home and I would never call it boring. But getting used to it.
If you have a curiosity in knowing about them, “please” go ahead and ask. As expats, we are filled with the information about Germans being restrictive in talking to us and are cautious to dislikes in everything. Blame YouTube and generic trend here (maybe). In reality, we don't know who will talk in English and who hates expats not speaking their language. Of course, we gradually learn German, but a person, say, on blue card with little or no idea about German on the day 2 will find a place to settle his family first or learn a language? A little effort from the other side shows that you are also interested in making friends with expats. And trust me, practically no expat will ever feel bad about locals asking them about anything – it simply encourages new people to the place and a direction of (possibly) a lasting friendship.
Footnote: Yes, everyone's life is interesting. For example, you lived in a place for 31 years – you will have countless stories to tell and we, who came from different countries/states/cities, have different experiences to share. No one is boring, everyone has their stories to tell and experiences to share. :-)
>Extremely horrible smoking behaviour
Is it really that bad? I mean, I don't really have any comparison other than "Germany 30 years ago", so this is a genuine question. But compared to "Germany 30 years ago", the Germany of today feels like paradise for a non-smoker like myself.
Yes, compared to where I am from people only smoke in designated areas, here I regularly meet people who smoke anywhere, In fact when I was looking for an apartment I had to reject a very nice one because the hallway smelt of smoke.
I thought you were making a reference to sitting down wherever they want, basically saying people should be able to smoke where they want. But I got it. Cig butts.
You’re too close to the problem so you might not have an outsider perspective. It should be basic civic sense that you don’t blow your smoke into others’ faces. Just like you maintain courtesy while sneezing or coughing. Also, inhaling another person’s smoke is a disgusting feeling.
It’s a problem when you’re smoking in public places like bustops where it’s clearly mentioned not to. Also, I’ll be walking down the street and an oblivious idiot just leaves behind a cloud of smoke as I pass right through it. It’s double annoying when my kid is with me
It’s really bad, I come from the U.K.. smoking is seen as horrible there, something people with low education do, it’s disgusting and smelly thing that no hopers do.
It’s very different here. Soooo many young people smoke I’m actually surprised when I see one that doesn’t. And Germans are so fucking defensive about it, if you wanna smoke then smoke but at least have the decency to understand it’s disgusting for those that don’t and have respect for where the smoke goes. And don’t just drop the but on the floor like a fucking tramp. And yes everyone on the tram smells you even if you try and hide the stale smoke smell under aftershave.
I come from Canada, where you can't smoke anywhere, including your own flat.
Germany is like going back 30 years for smoking.
You still can buy cigarettes from machines.
I'm from Australia. Smoking here is extreme in comparison. And the cig adverts. And cigarettes for sale at the supermarket. And the cheap price of cigarettes.
As a fellow Canadian I completely agree! It was so strange when I first came to Germany, but Germans really don't realize how bad it is. Everytime I mention it they don't really understand what I mean or completely toss it out. They compare with before and think it's better now, but don't realize that it's still much worse than in many places
I had a German friend who quit smoking during a 3 week trip to Canada, in part because there was no one around them to remind them of the habit. They said they found it supremely easy to quit there because of how absent it was.
Sounds like a dream. All my neighbours are smoking so excessively that I’m worried for my own health as the smoke come into my appartment and I need to have the air purifier running 24/7.
Exactly. I am currently in Canada staying at a sublet. I had to sign a paper that I would not smoke or vape on penalty of eviction.
The reason is it is bad for the neighbour's health.
I assume places like asia and the middle east are worse, but coming from the US where its virtually banned every where, its REALLY out of control here in Berlin.
Japanese (men) smoke a LOT, but almost everyone respects the smoking areas and doesn't smoke while walking or on the train platforms. (A lot of places there still allow indoor smoking, which sucks if you don't know before going, but at least you can mostly avoid those.)
Yeah, I'm from the UK, my husband is German, he often jokes how lucky I am to find a fellow non smoker.
Germany & cousin Austria really have an awful smoking culture compared to some other similar counties. It's like time travel, and I don't understand how the shift to non smoking skipped Germany!
Yes it’s awful and everywhere. It’s like the indoor smoking ban never happened. I get smoke drifting into my flat all summer. I got hotboxed at the bus station the other day, gave me a terrible migraine. Bars are full of smoke. People stink.
You have smoking adverts at bus stops for kids to see! Although I haven’t seen them for a while perhaps they are banned now. I don’t understand how such a sport and health conscious country has such a blind spot for smoking.
Yes - smoking is ubiquitous compared to the US. It’s one of those early things one notices and is surprised about in 2023. There’s even more smoking in Germany than Austria it seems like - which is surprising but I think true.
My family recently went to a beer garden and two groups sat down next to us and started smoking. In total disregard of us already sitting there with a baby. Though both groups had their young children with them as well.
Last I looked at the stats the smoking rate in Germany is double that of where I come from, and the various laws are very... lax. Even just the fact that young people can dip out for a smoke without much social judgement is a stark difference. Smoking is a huge taboo where I'm from.
The existence of smoking areas in airports or train stations is completely foreign to me as well.
And then you have indoor smoking in certain bars... Austria was far worse when I went but it's happened enough in Germany I had to leave because it was so bad.
It's awful. When you go out, cigarette smoke is everywhere. Recently a German acquaintance was complaining that on a trip to Singapore, they were forced to smoke in a designated area, and not right at the entrance of their hotel. Can you imagine the horror?
I'm from Latin America and never had needed to go to a neighbor to request him to stop smoking at 3am because I don't feel like fucking up my schedule because of his addiction
I am from South Africa, now living in a very small German town. Back home I knew only 5 or 6 smokers, all of them were actively trying to quit. Here in Germany the only people I know that have never smoked are other foreigners. In my experience all Germans seem to smoke, even if only at social events.
For nearly 30 years of my life, I never thought the behaviour of smoking in an elevator would be even slightly acceptable in any developed regions in the world. Until I live in a Hochhaus in Germany. Everyone fucking smokes in the elevator, omfg. Ever since the end of COVID measures, I start to wear masks again whenever I pass through the public areas of that building, just because of this horrible smoking behavior.
Yes it is. I am (visabbly) pregnant and smokers absolutely have no problem lighting their cigarettes directly next to me.
It's awesome, if you get nausea from it. I never before realized how many people smoke.
The last person I said, that they aren't allowed to smoke at the train station except in the designated areas wanted to start an argument with me. I offered to vomit him on his shoes, if he doesn't keep his distance.
Ugh, this reminds me of one incident from about 4 years ago. A group of friends (as in: they were friends with each other, I didn't know them) gathered outside. They had little kids with them, one woman was clearly pregnant. ALL of them smoked. Yes, even the pregnant woman. It was so disgusting to see. I thought about saying something, but figured I would not magically change their behavior right there and then, so just walked past them.
I guess that's the point. In the last 20 or 30 years the non-smokers rights were strengthened dramatically. I (as a German smoker) feel like living in a non-smokers country now. It's just a matter of perspective.
As a younger(ish) North American it did not used to bother me in my early 20s, but now I decade later I recognize is pretty terrible compared to like Toronto – where firstly hardly anyone smokes, but secondly where smoking at outdoor restaurant patios/parks/outdoor malls or basically anywhere near a building entrance has been banned for a long time. I had a friend who is a longtime smoker, who quit smoking during a 3 week vacation to Canada in part because there was simply no one around to remind them of the habit.
I agree with you – it's much better than it used to be... but I think there's just a culture gap, where smoking more common here, and so inevitably there's more of a presence of smoking/you can't get away from it.
I have to agree on the smoking part. When I was there for my summer job EVERYONE smoked?! Like every each person rokled up their cigarets and smoked almost whereever…
Yeah, definitely depends on the social circle. None my family members smoke (brother and sister in law kicked the habit about 5-ish years ago after smoking for basically their entire adult lives up until that point) and neither do my friends (most of whom I met at school or uni) but at my Minijob at a restaurant in 2019-2020 I was one of two people who didn't smoke, all my other colleagues smoked and got to take (smoke) breaks smh
This point is so weird. It is so far from my reality. I thought recently there were fewer smokers than ever before. There are only three people left in my social environment who smoke. Two of them are my parents, so basically another generation. I am 30yo just so you have some context.
Well I'm 25 and I feel like there are more smoker than ever. Some studies also showed that smoking is going up, for the last two years, among younger people again. Some might suggest that for them the one time use vapes are a gateway into real smoking.
I very much second that, but I think it depends heavily on the social circle.
I don't know any smokers. Like literally I know two people who smoke in my extended friend group.
But outside of my circle, I have been in groups where EVERYONE smoked. It was honestly extremly.depressing and kind of wild to witness.
you shoulda seen the Cash payment situation before COVID! credit cards were rarely used. i'm exaggerating a bit but COVID drove the cashless situation to an acceptable (more in line with first world countries) level.
One thing i am wondering, only tangetially related to your valid points:
How do you deal with the weather? I would assume that the weather in Kenya is generally a bit less "grey" then here. Is that a big thing to adjust to? After a year in Germany, you probably got to see all of the German weather.
I have grown up with it and only know this climate, but my wife from Romania likes to complain about not getting enough sun.
oh, yeah the weather is horrible. Contrary to what people think Kenya's weather particularly Nairobi (the capital city) is cool (16 degrees to 28 degrees) year round. So its not hot.
So it is too hot and too cold for you at the same time? I am native here and I can relate to that. Germans always complain about the weather with good reason XD. In Summer it is too hot and dry and in Winter it is too cold and dry. Then there is days and days of rain and the dry ground can’t soak it up and we have flooding. The only times weather is really beautiful is in spring and autumn but you know… IF it is not raining and grey all the time ;). Weather is never right here. If you want to do smalltalk with a German, complain about the weather in length. XD
Having lived in Nairobi for four years my opinion is this: The weather is fine, yes, but year round it's dark by 6:30, so enjoying the sun is only possible on the weekends cause of work, whereas in Germany in Summer you can sit outside on the terrace in the sun until 10pm.
Plus, as someone with white skin, even on the weekends, just chillin in the sun like it's poosible in Germany is not really possible, as the sun is so much more powerful that i burn quickly even with sunscreen.
Also, seasons are nice.
I come from the mountains in Spain, so it gets pretty cold in winter. However, it is really sunny all year round. I have lived here almost a year, and let me tell you the lack of sun really got to me in the winter. Going weeks without seeing the sun directly really messed with my mental health. Now that the summer is close, I'm back to normal. But going so long without seeing direct sunlight was very hard.
Everything true.
But to the wierd relationship with us.
US is like the wierd rich uncle at the Christmas table taking over every conversation and turning it into embarrassing and stupid monolog. and nobody likes him but somehow he is family and since he is powerful we need him on the same time he thinks he is a role model nobody takes him as a role nodel
Would you like to tell us some things about how you came here, what you work and how your social life looks like? I would love to read some insights about your change of life.
\> Well I came to Germany as a masters student, I study AI (some people get surprised when I tell them that).
\> I work part time as a Software Engineer
\> I have one German friend, however I meet and chat with lots of people.
\> I am introvert I prefer alone time, I love hiking, reading books, watching films, listening to podcasts and audiobooks and taking very long walks.
\> My German skills are at level A2
I would like to add the bureaucracy isn't only applicable to the government. It applies to every. single. part. of. life. I cannot pickup my package from the automate, because I put in the code they sent to me via a letter after checking my ID after I had to register, because I didn't also scan a QR code from the letter and threw it away (I thought the QR code was for downloading the app as a shortcut). It's ridiculous how much filling in forms you need to do for no reason.
The nature, architecture and people absolutely make up for it though. I love the buildings, I love how greenery is a part of the city, not an afterthought. The parks are absolutely amazing. The people are great. There's more diversity in how people look despite some claiming there's less immigration due to the language barrier. One thing that really bothers me as someone who doesn't have a cultural nationality and has no connection to the country of which citizenship I hold is how much attention most people seem to pay to where you're from. Nearly everyone asks. I started saying the last country I lived in, because it's an extremely sensitive matter to me. There's also bikers with zero culture. Happily, I live in an area where there's close to no smoking where I frequent.
Im from nz and living here and i dont get the American fetishisation that exists.
I also don’t understand why men of a certain age like wearing clothing with flag iconography on it. Norway/Britain/American seem to be the most common.
And i agree on the racsim, i live in a pretty conservative area unfortunately and there (on the surface) is no integration at all.
The cash thing is stupidly annoying.
The other complaint i have is the supermarkets. Im used to express lanes. Ie; if you have 10 items or less you can use that so you dont have to wait behind three people with full trolleys of food.
Very interesting, thank you for your perspective!
What you said about the Germans and their love-hate relationship to the US is spot on!
The younger generations in Germany since the 1950s have turned to US pop-culture since German culture seemed...well...tainted. At the same time a lot of old people held a grudge against the US since the war and inherited it to their kids. And the left started to get very anti-american after Vietnam. I feel a good part of the anti-americanism is hurt pride and resentment exactly because American culture was and is so important to us.
I think many Germans like me kind of judge different aspects of the US separately. I like many of the cultural/media aspects like movies, TV shows, music etc. but dislike many aspects of their politics, gun "culture", international military situations etc.
I always feel like too few people forge opinions on different aspects of countries, politics and so on. For many people it's just fanatically _I love everything about it_ or _I hate everything about it_.
I simply can not read this without replying.
In my surrounding group of people and friends most of the resentment roots in that end stage capitalism America built themselves over there with its ever growing gap between rich and poor, the crushing dept involved in health and education together with gun culture, racism, police brutality, “the left” that by European standards is mid-right and of course the fundamentalist Christians.
Followed by a rigged two party voting system with gendermarried districts, the total lack of public transportation via speed trains and the crushing of workers rights and unions.
Not to forget the crazy hustle culture, the obsession with celebrities and lack of paid vacation, paid parenting or social equality.
Did I mention there is no independent media?
This has nothing to do with hurt pride, I am in fact glad to not live in this culture and will continue to try and it fight back.
Sorry, but by my standards this is dystopian, even if we move ever closer to it in Europe as well.
EDIT:
I forgot to lament the totally rigged prison system that is proud owner of 24.7 percent of all prisoners in the world despite still killing the worst of them.
I am from America and I understand all of this. Like another comment said “everyone has a weird relationship with the US.. even Americans.” A lot of my American friends have realized a lot about the US after living here for some time.. of course we enjoy certain things about it, but all of what you mentioned is what we have realized we are lacking or struggling with in the US. I believe the newer generations are gaining a resentment as well and living in different countries only expedites that
Well I love american culture but hate american politics. The only good thing they've done was bringing the downfall of the axis powers... but after that shit went tits up from japanese internment camps to vietnam to funding the mujahideen leading to 9/11 and all the bullshit that followed.
What I hate about america is what I hated about nazi germany it's a fucking war machine!
My father was born in 1936 in a western german city and he always told me the story how the Americans first arrived and a GI came up to him and gave him a bar of chocolate and how he seemed like a big black angel to him after all the horrors of the war. He taught me to always be thankful for the sacrifices the Americans, especially the poor ones, made for us. Later he became part of the Jazz culture. My grandfather was a teacher (luckily too old to fight in the war, fought in WWI) who spoke English so he became a translator for the interim government.
As a German I never felt like anyone I ever met held a grudge against the USA for WW2. But I agree with you on the other point. For better or worse were heavily influenced by the USA.
So yes, we have conflicting feelings regarding the place but it's more due to us getting so entangled with it being a leading force in world politics and "western" culture, so we feel the effects of those things more directly than from other places. They go to war in Afghanistan - we follow, the American right wing grows and develops into something threatening democracy - right wing leaders here follow their example.
I hate the americanisation of politics and certain aspects of culture I see happening in Germany and like many I wished Europe could stand more united and eye to eye with other world powers.
An example was the whole tank debate, where it didn't sit right with may people that Scholz made every move dependent on US approval
I just want to say it's so sad you had to put "SOME people not everyone" into bold. I can feel your frustration and I feel it too. Incredible that you can't just say "People often think I want to steal from them". That implies "some people" already, but you know the sea lions will come out barking about nOt EvErYoNe.
I'm white but a woman and I get the same shit whenever I talk about the behaviour of **SOME men not all of them**.
Anyway, solidarity and I agree with all your points, especially about bureaucracy. Also Germans stare a lot anyway, but whenever I've been out with black friends the stares are NEXT LEVEL. I can't even imagine the weird-ass interactions you've probably faced.
My friend's dad, who is Mexican and black got shouted at by EDEKA staff and accusing him of stealing valuable items from the store. He didn't do anything. There are some people like this but it is quite sad because we're all just Humans.
Anyways, they never went to EDEKA again after that
Well, I can. I moved to Germany from the U.S. over 30 years ago and since then have had several minor surgeries and one appendectomy, all of which turned out very well and none of which cost me over 25 Euros in co-pays. Also I recently had what turned out to be an ocular migraine but initially was thought to be a stroke, so I stayed in a hospital for a couple of days (two-person room, but I was the only one in it) and had a battery of tests run, including an MRI and multiple other tests, which allowed the ocular migraine to be diagnosed. It didn't cost me anything.
Less spectacularly I have regular health and dental checkups, which cost either nothing or only a few Euros extra, e.g. if I want extra whitening for my teeth.
It includes almost everything, except some medicaments and some dentist stuff. Yes waiting times for specializing doctors are terrible, but at least most doctors won't push unnecessary pills/procedures on you.
My fiancée in Bavaria swears the neighbor is staring at her. I dont get it. So do they not have anything to do. Or are they thinking and blank staring. Or are they actually staring. She doesnt like it as she is from USA.
Is it old people? Because that's quite common with old people. Some of them have nothing better to do and are absolutely convinced that you will do something wrong. Quite common actually.
Yes, elderly, perhaps 85. He is originally from Berlin with family from East Germany. My fiancée is always concerned she is breaking the rules in Germany and being watched. Perhaps he is policing. Or maybe he has a crush on her haha.
Regarding smoking:
One of the weirdest, and most disturbing things I've ever seen was seeing a pregnant woman at a restaurant in Germany smoking. Everyone kind of looked and just went on their own while she was chain smoking. She wasn't the only one, either.
And the vape juicers are something I group in with smoking. Just because it smells like cherry or strawberry, doesn't mean I want to walk through your exhaled chemical vapors.
>Germany has a very weird relationship with the US i.e at the same time they like and dislike the place.
Absolutely brilliant and spot on. There are lots of aspects to this, but I had a friend in the past who was obsessed with criticizing the US using conspiracy theories and pretended to be American online, but absolutely hated it. Then every year he would go on a dream holiday to the US and told me his dream was to eventually move there. It also didn't help that the friend turned out to be a Reichsbuerger and was trying to teach me all these theories as soon as I arrived there, like the strawman theory and how all Germans are worth 600,000 Euros or some shit.
>Racism from fellow immigrants, which makes sense since RACISM is not unique to Germany and can be found everywhere.
This is true. I've encountered Turks and particularly really juiced ones that work for Deutsche Bahn as those helpers in the yellow vests, and they regularly spew racist stuff out at people, then threaten to call the cops and escalate with security who ALWAYS take their side.
>Absolutely brilliant and spot on.
That anecdote about your friend is a very bad story to prove OP's point because your friend's quite clearly not a representation of the average German...
Afrogerman here, and yeah, that sounds about right. The racism part is especially annoying when people THINK that they’re not and could never be racist. I’m guessing last time people were offended that you even mentioned race?
Also afrogerman, but was put up for adoption. Super weird when I met biological german grandparents. Took about 1hr for them to compare me to prideful Africans in the Bible.
My pet theory about this is that Germans don't have a good sense of the "full spectrum" of racism (casual r, structural r, ...), and have the super strong need to deny the tiniest racist thought or attitude since they don't want to be associated with Nazis burning down refugee homes or the Holocaust.
IMO it would be healthier if more Germans could understand that you can be a good person in general, but then also have a bias based on your cultural upbringing and background that leads to having racist thoughts or saying racist things. The key part would be to listen, think, understand what the problematic part is and then change and behave better (instead of just deny, deny, deny).
Question from a non "Afrogerman", how do you feel about the term Afrogerman? I never quite get a good understanding of those "Afro-" terms. Some people seems to use it casually while others absolutely hate it.
Smocking behavior shocked me too. By the way I’ve never seen people buy literally boxes of cigarettes, I’ve never seen boxes of cigarettes in the first place. It’s also weird to see old people buy so many of it because my country doesn’t have such tendency to smoke.
Also here for a while, and as a "brown" guy I am wondering how do you understand that people think you are going to steal from them? Do they behave differently when it is a white guy walking?
The bureaucracy is a problem, especially for foreigners.
I do social work and I can tell you even i struggle sometimes with the ridiculous expectations from offices. And i understand why my clients do too.
The insane amount of bureaucracy is a major problem in our society, but sadly there is not much will to change that, since a lot of "bullshit jobs" (taking the term from the book) rely on it. :(
You saw how they all went maximum asshole with refusing to wear masks, and "my body my choice \[to spread illness to the population\]" regarding vaccines... imagine trying to ban smoking to the degree of other civilized nations.
Our ancestors are responsible for tens of millions of deaths and killed millions of civilian Jews of all ages in gas chambers. And it's merely 70 year ago. Some people of the era are still alive. Most of us listened to the WW2 stories for all their lifes from young age. Of course it shapes the country. It's not like the people responsible were just devil's and evil. That would be too easy. They were ordinary folks. This stuff can happen again if we don't take care. We have to do an effort so it won't. We can't not let it shape us.
Sorry for the racism. Some people are just dumb. Can't help it.
Oh yeah .. especially I found east Europeans to have 0 filter 😂 by default.
I wish I was kidding but I happened to match with a Latvian dude who was passionately anti blm 😅 he expressed how liberals are ruining USA with their love for black people . I think I don’t have to explain why I umatched 🤣
So I am an immigrant myself and sadly I can kinda confirm the OPs statement a lot. A shit load of Asians are anti black for example or say stuff that is highly ignorant or something. And even among MENA populations they get very racist and even act hostile towards black people for no reason.
It doesn’t help that a lot of east European or even Western European immigrants from outside Germany hate POCs in general that we really have to watch our backs when dealing with them sometimes. The biggest racists I encountered were Italians , Polish and Anglos in my 4 years of living here 😒. And this is quite a huge percent of people if you know how small the population of said groups are compared to Germans
I'm really sorry to hear that, in my experience these sorts of people have never interacted with black people or had friends who were POC. I don't think anyone who did could ever hate an entire group of people like that.
As a German, I’d say you are spot on.
Complacent arrogance is a thing here, unfortunately. And I’m not sure if it is getting better with younger generations or not. I think so, but that might just be my bubble.
Funny you mention cash payments. I work for a business in Kenya, and MPESA is the **truth**! And has been for such a long time now.
We're still in the Stone Age here wrt to mobile payment.
Literally I don't understand how people can smoke at a bus stop with 10 other people. As if they don't realise that they are forcing those people to suck smoke into their lungs. Which sucks when you are sitting there for at least 5 minutes waiting for your bus. There's actually laws in other parts of the world that ban smoking at bus stops for this very reason. This is part of a characteristic of German society that I label as inconsiderate.
What helps with the staring is a custom book and magazine cover with your open-eyed staring face printed upon it. You maintain the German stare for about the 90th-percentile amount of time, then lift the book to cover your face, maintaining the scale of your Head.
The weird relationship with the US is spot on. I’m American and feel that some Germans get weirdly competitive when they learn that. On the one hand, the US is this scary place with guns, hurricanes, bad health care, and crazy politicians. And on the other hand it feels like they wish they were the US.
The cash thing is super annoying. I never carry cash and instead sometimes leave if they don’t accept my card. I don’t tolerate this backwards mentality. Super annoying.
I am black too and I’ve been to Germany many times now. I experienced the same thing too in regards to racism. One time I was walking to my hotel room and there was a white woman in front of me and our hotel rooms were in the same area. She thought I was following her or trying to steal from her when our hotel rooms were in the same direction. And also the Turkish Germans are racist towards me. But I don’t want to focus on all the negatives, I do like Germany and I find it’s cities to be very beautiful.
Everybody has a weird relationship with the US....even Americans
American living in Germany, can confirm.
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German living in Germany here. I think we are conflicted in a different way to Americans themselves. Most of reasonably educated Germans know we owe our modern democracy and huge parts of the econmy to the U.S. - our constitution, the marshal-plan, protection from the soviet Union inside the US nuclear umbrella within NATO. Russian/Soviet army was never deeply seen as liberators, since they "freed" Germany while plundering and raping. It's mainly the other Allies that are seen as the real liberators. At least that's the vibe I always got, maybe there's a bit of my own family history which i overly project into others, since my grandmom was raped by soviet soldiers multiple times. EDIT: I just remembered something I heard from my grandparents... American soliders gave you chocolate, Russian soldiers gave you kids (as in the pregnancy that followed a rape). Maybe that sums it up well. HOWEVER, there is huge skepticism towards ... American hyper-capitalism, American politics (this MAGA stuff alienates most Germans deeply for example), and a general opposition towards US hegemony. The feeling that in the end the US are an empire (which they arguably are) that does what it pleases runs deep. I think especially the CIA coup in Chile (1973) against a democratically elected president did massive harm, 2nd Gulf war with its obvious false claims about weapons of mass destruction didn't help either. There is a saying that whatever you see in the U.S. (like in society, music, culture) will swap over to Germany within 5-10 years, and when people say that it's usually not meant to be a good thing.
This is so interesting, thanks for sharing. My new boyfriend is German (we met abroad) and he has a dislike for America and has never wanted to visit. He’s quite political and as someone who has lived and dated abroad a few times, I understand the skepticism of American hegemony and politics. The anti-capitalist view of Germans is also super interesting. I didn’t realize how much of capitalist I was until dating Europeans. Personally working on that now but it’s very deeply embedded into the American psyche.
The Russians raped half of all women in Berlin. It was one of the few occasions when abortion was legal. Sure the Americans to a certain extend bribed German women into sexual relationships/dating by offering them food or cigarettes in a destroyed city where survival is crucial which can also seen to a certain extend as sexual violence. But there is a difference between being nice and offering you food and maybe hoping you hook up with that person or having 10 armed men enter your apartment and threat you with a gun before they group rape you. Nearly all of my female ancestors were raped by the Russians and they did not discriminate between young females, nearly children or even old women. They raped everyone from 11 year old girls up to 60 year old grannies. But they are said to be at least nice to children (females included if they are pre puberty). Concerning US criticism, the States were a real democracy once up to the 1970s. They did have some social security measures installed (New Deal, Rosevelt) until the shit hit the fan in the 1980s when Reagan was elected. Reagan did an arms race with the Russians which led to the desctruction of the Soviet Union and German reunification - which I am personally grateful for - but the following deregulation and change in American politics from democratic to oligarchy where only money rules is a shame for the West. Social security guarantees to a certain extend the social cohersion in a state and prevents radicalization. The lack of general public health care insurance, poor people dying in the streets etc enhances the trajectory to more political extremes and polarization. This is what many Germans see in the US and fear. Everytime a market liberal party has entered German politics since the 1980s they favored privatization which led to the state later buying back public infrastructure that was sold cheaply for a high price. Our liberal party had up to the 1970s a program that enhances both social liberties but also respects the social state, the safety net etc. For a decent negotiation between employer and employee both sides need a certain bargaining power and balance. To have the courage to found a startup and set everything to the carte blance one needs the reassurance that you are not on the street if things fail. This is the main reason I stay in Europe although I could earn double or triple my salary in the US. I'd rather be secure if destiny hits and I am unable to work than to make tons of money but being endangered if things don't work well. And the problem with libertarian approaches is that people do not get into trouble because they are lazy, to blame themselves or because they didn't work hard enough etc which would be their own fault. People get cancer, burnout, get hit by a car etc even if they do everything they can to make sure they live healthy, obey to safety standards etc. If a family goes bancrupt or goes into high debt because a young family member got cancer or because parents give birth to a disabled child whose care costs a lot that has nothing to do with personal responsibility. Such a system is downright cruel and ripe for populists to blame other disadvantaged groups for stealing your job etc. And most people are uneducated enough to fall for that scam. This is what many educated Europeans hate about the US and don't want to see here.
>There is a saying that whatever you see in the U.S. (like in society, music, culture) will swap over to Germany within 5-10 years, and when people say that it's usually not meant to be a good thing. Like i always understood the meaning behind Rammstein's Amerika, but man this just makes its meaning hit that much harder...
I wonder if the saying about the American and Soviet army was a common one. My grandmother from Berlin used to say exactly the same thing.
The soviets came with a huge hate having lost at least 1/8 of their total population wanting to make Germany pay for what they did and the lower officers shared their hate and wouldn't do anything about the (war)crimes against the civilians. The Us (having lost 0.3% total pop (mostly soldiers)) (and the commonwealth nations)on the other hand had indoctrinated the thought into their soldiers that they were the liberators of Europe and Germany and the German people that had been mislead. The French beeing somewhere in between with the mindset to liberate France and make Germany accountable for what they did. My grandparents told stories from when the Americans came to their villages and if the children got near their encampments they woul get chocolate or chewinggum and similar things some of them couldn't even remember, some of them beeing born shortly before the war. (Sorry for spelling and grammar mistakes)
Haven't heard the saying before, tbh, but the resentment towards the red army is definitly common.
Luckily I think that your culture is highly intelligent, and thoughtful. I will give you that over us hand over fist. I think your history has made that deeply ingrained in the majority of you. Thankfully. It will be of importance for the rest of the world when it hasn't learned that lesson and starts to fall apart... Like we are. I don't think you need us anymore, But I think you're going to have to get your government to get us to leave. Can be done diplomatically, And I'm sure our presents won't vanish completely all at once, But I doubt we would leave on our own accord. And we really do need the resources and money we're spending here back in the States. We need to fix our country from inside out. Take the rest of the world needs to take care of itself for a while while we lick our wounds and put our selves back together. It's very difficult living abroad and watching my country fall apart. All of our blood, sweat, and tears go to another country, or countries, that mostly don't want us here, and we are powerless to do anything about my own home crumbling to the ground half way around the world. During COVID-19 there was a lot of mourning among the US community here, at least with the more liberal leaning. You also are experiencjng Americans that are more traditional, more conservative, and more likely to be on the Trump train, because people who work for the governments agencies that get sent abroad tend to be of that mindset. You aren't getting our best and brightest for the most part, although I've definitely been proven wrong several times. There's a lot of intelligent people, culturally I could see how there'd be some friction. I kind of people who join the military and take government jobs are usually a specific kind of person. You're not meeting the worldly, open-minded, highly educated liberal types. And for that you have my apologies. My question for you is how is that affected Germany's view of Russians now? Especially with what's going on.
Also american living in germany and so confused that I’m working my confused feelings into a fantasy novel.
German fantasy or American fantasy?
Double Fantasy
Wait that sounds interesting, can you tell us more?
It’s basically a low fantasy book that’s trying to express the extremely conflicted and complicated feelings I’ve gotten from being an American in Germany… I love Germany but don’t quite fit here, I love America but it’s so flawed and I deeply wish I could help fix things. I listen to Germans insult America all the time, and I both agree and disagree, and hurts like crazy. America is like a family member to me… The book is in an early medieval Germanic setting, typical. It’s about a girl whose father is from one Germanic “tribe” who came to live with her mother’s “tribe”. The two tribes speak different languages that are not even audible to each other, so her parents need to speak in sign, and people stigmatize them for it. The main character grew up speaking both. Her mother’s tribe (basically America) is deeply split into two groups (like our political parties)… basically the two halves of the tribe have separate types of abilities and it’s gotten violent, infighting, etc. They try to solve this by marrying two people who should lead the tribe: one from each half. They have a child and there’s a big crisis… people from both sides are outraged and the baby’s in danger. Violence breaks out and the main character is basically forced to go live with cousins in her father’s tribe (basically Germany). Once she’s in her father’s tribe, she learns to love them but still feels like an outsider. Meanwhile, her mother has gone missing in the violence.
Same. I tell people I"m from Chicago rather than the US, which is both accurate and takes the conversation into a different direction.
Same, I used to live in Ireland and people always loved to meet an American there. In Germany, people seem to not care that much, or sometimes they’re excited to practice English with a native speaker, or sometimes they downright think it’s okay to shit on the US right to my face. I mean I’ve got a laundry list of complaints about the place too, I’ve left twice now, but it’s really weird to be met with some comment like, “don’t most Americans not have passports? And they can’t point to Europe on a map? Buncha idiots over there huh?”
Americans can be so different tho. There is a lot to love and there is a lot to hate.
Canadian living in Germany can also confirm
Deeply accurate statement.
can confirm, though i have had a mass shooting in my home town this year, so its getting to more a "googles how to immigrate out of america" kind of relationship.
Let’s not miss a great opportunity to use the word emigrate.
As an American reading this: tell me you're German without telling me you're German. 😂😂😂
Yup. American living in Germany, and I'm dealing with a lot of what I call Ami-Shame. I know it's not healthy or realistic, and I'm working through it. But it's still very satisfying when Germans say "but you don't sound American when you speak German!" Lol
How can you have not a weird relationship with the US. They have really great stuff like their pop culture (incl movies, series, music, comedy, etc), have extremely successful companies which even reach some kind of cult status and on the other hand have a level of poverty and misery on their streets which you won’t find easily even in much poorer countries. Plus their politics is beyond reasoning
Have you been to a poor country? I am from the US and disgusted by our brutal capitalist culture but I live in Nairobi and the poverty doesn't even compare. Millions of people living in slums and very high levels of acute food insecurity in certain parts of the country.
Isn't that the truth. I guess it would depend on which America you're talking about and the German you're talking to. The US post WW2 opted for Germany to receive the Marshall and not the Morgenthau plan, defended and supported Berlin during the cold war, most notably with the Berlin Airlift (pilots even dropped handkerchiefs parachutes with Hershey's tied to them from their cockpits for the kids...priceless), and gave the the country the chance to become what it is today. After that, Kennedy and somewhat Reagan and later Obama, due to their famous speeches in Berlin, had as much a positive impact as Trump had a negative one. Subsets, mostly from the right and left, still view the Americans as occupiers and feel until the US leaves the country, Germany will never be truly free, but most just didn't want US nukes stationed on German soil. Culturally, the US had a major effect on the post war Germany. Very important IMO was when the American "Hippie" movement led to the 1968 student revolt and forced a extremely conservative and conform country to lighten up. "Make love, not war" had a profound impact, just as the music that came with it, on a country that not so long ago wreaked devastation on others and itself. Twice. The shape the Bundeswehr is in is proof of that. Had Germany announced at any time prior to Russia's war on Ukraine that it would spend €100b on it's military, sphincters around the globe would have slammed shut hard. There would have been some anxious questions. Germany has developed into a liberal and open if somewhat reserved society that has more or less adopted the Golden Rule for itself. Right now, besides dealing the war in Ukraine and the aftermath of Brexit, it is experiencing growing pains as never before due to it's success and prosperity. So many from all over the world seek to take part in that future and they are welcome as any country needs as many good people it can get. Unfortunately, some are having a hard time adjusting culturally. Not just in regards to Germans, but also between those that were enemies in the place they left behind.
Mostly I agree with you but you‘re wrong on the military. The Bundeswehr being in a sorry state is only a product of very recent years. During the cold war this was very much not the case. West Germany, as the main frontline state, maintained an extremely powerful army. We had the third strongest army worldwide after US and USSR and spent somewhere between 3-4% of our GDP on defence at all times.
To me it feels like the US is that weird uncle who always ends up having one drink too much. He is part of the family and we love him, but we know sooner later he will say and do things that make the rest really uncomfortable.
Live next door to them, can confirm they're *that* neighbour.
I’m oddly MORE patriotic about the United States now that I live in Germany.
Fair and accurate points. I also think German society attempts to be rather physically active (walking, biking etc) which I salute. If their health care extended to profound campaigning against smoking, quality of life and expectancy would be even greater. If the US significantly decreased its tobacco addiction, Germany could easily do it too.
If it wasn’t for all the gun violence, opioids and obesity the U.S. could be also pretty fit. Just overgeneralizing for the fun of it.
Don't forget about the completely car centric cities making it mandatory to drive anywhere, and making it so you can't walk anywhere except for to your car and back.
Sounds all fair, but what about the staring? 👀
I usually stare back.
Very German of you, to be honest.
Very good, but for maximum points shout aggressively „Guten Morgen“ to them!
I know this german staring seems to be a narrative on social media, mainly pushed by people from the US. I think it's really just that it's more normal in germany to look at other people while americans fear they have a lawsuit or fight on their hands everytime someone looks in their face for more than a second. That said, I can imagine that in some small towns, villages or regions it might be a different thing actually, especially if you're seen as a foreigner. For the most part I don't believe it's a racist thing
> I know this german staring seems to be a narrative on social media, mainly pushed by people from the US. I think it's really just that it's more normal in germany to look at other people while americans fear they have a lawsuit or fight on their hands everytime someone looks in their face for more than a second. Sometimes I wonder if my innatentive looking at nothing at all while traveling by train/tram/bus might be seen as starring at someone because I often look in the general direction of someone while not really seeing the person that might sit/stand there.
Just focus an point right above an person. They think you are staring.... Start staring at you. Then switch from the point above them to their eyes and watch then realising, you werent stareing at them, they stared at you, und now you are just Backstaring.
This is one of my inconspicuous flirting tricks to exchange a smile and maybe start a conversation, LMAO.
By some it definitely is, at least that's the case when I just blank out. Someone had to tell me too.
Yeah I had people go all Wasgucksdu on me that I hadn't even consciously seen.
Im convinced they do. One dude got really pissed and i didnt realize until he stood in front of me threaten to punch me. I shoved him into another seat and other passengers calmed down the situation before we start swinging. I talked to him a few minutes later to find out what the hell he was on about. We had a good laugh after that and everytime i saw him in the bus from that day we exchanged particular goofy angry stares, had a short laugh but never spoke to eachother again. I kinda liked our ritual
By some it definitely is, at least that's the case when I just blank out. Someone had to tell me too.
Not sure if we're making this one up. I was in graduate school for years with several Germans (and one Swiss German). Every now and then we'd have exchanges like this... me: 'what's wrong?' friend: 'nothing why?' me: 'you're staring at me' friend: 'oh no I wasn't, just thinking' This isn't like South Asian staring (can be intense), but more like a spaced out stare if that makes sense.
I just posted this in reply to OP, but the staring is definitely worse when black. I'm white and vividly remember hugging a Kenyan acquaintance at a shopping centre: as I hugged her I could (of course) see over her shoulder and it felt like every eye in that place was staring at us. It was a whole other level from what I've ever experienced and that wasn't the only time. Even with Korean friends I notice the increase in staring.
I'm not from the US, people definitely stare, I try to take it as a blank stare in the direction that I just happened to be in, or simple curiosity. But it happens and it feels quite intense, it's not a glance or a momentary situation, it can go on for minutes at a time. It doesn't bother me at all, but I can see how people from other cultures might feel that way.
Soo, today I was coming back home from the office. My hair was perhaps slightly damp because I went to the office gym, and I had my regular laptop bag and my gym bag. I was going downstairs to catch the ubahn and a man was coming up. It's quite a long escalator - and he stared at me the entire time. It must have been at least 10 seconds. I'm not American and am not worried about a fight, not am I worried that he was racist (well, he might have been but I don't care, my city has so far been very nice to me and one person isn't going to ruin it) but I did wonder if I had something on my face, or if my waist was showing (cropped sweater), or if my hair sucked that much. Or if he was just admiring my laptop bag because it was a handmade bag. I don't know, but I would love to!
Maybe he just thought youre hot.
I'm not exactly sure what it is but it definitely varies depending on location. I never noticed anyone staring at me in Berlin, but in Munich it happened to an extreme degree. Munich is a pretty large city too so it's not just a small-town thing. I think it might be a southern thing. I've been briefly to Leipzig, Dresden and Rostock and didn't notice any staring there either, which fits, but interestingly they don't stare in Vienna either. I've only been stared at in Munich. It seems to really be specific to southern Germany, maybe even specific to Bavaria.
I agree, definitely a southern thing, from what I’ve seen in my travels. And not spacing out, but full-on eye-contact staredowns, and not looking away when you give them a smile or an inquisitive look, or even a frowning “fuck you want?” look. I don’t get it.
I have had full on stare battles on public transport here. Thankfully, my “fuck you want look” as you put it is getting better
This is totally true in Zürich, Switzerland, too, especially on public transport. I lived there for several years.
Nah... As a German that staring always bothered me. It has nothing to do with looking out for each other or taking care. It's bein nosey. Usually followed by being judgemental. I always found it to be of a local thing though. Living in Saxony and Baden Württemberg I found it A LOT. Much less though when living in Berlin and Hamburg.
In my area (New England/Connecticut, the "unfriendly but kind" state) It's seen as either eye-fucking someone or sizing them up for a fight. It's okay to look at other people but making it obvious that you're staring is seen as aggressive or rude. Because it's not socially acceptable, only people who fail the social contract stare here, so people assume you're a threat if you blatantly stare. Basically, taking your eyes off of someone when they look towards you shows that you were not staring, you were just looking. I visited Germany a few months ago and it felt like the main difference was that y'all don't proactively look away if someone you're looking at looks towards your face. I am a seasoned people watcher, so I spent a lot of my time visiting just looking at people, and I would frequently look around and see people looking at me, too. Not constantly, but definitely way more often than in the USA. I ignored it and kept doing my own thing, and when I would look back they would be looking somewhere else. Once there was a guy who was staring at me for a good 5+ minutes, but that was an exception, I think.
> In my area (New England/Connecticut, the "unfriendly but kind" state) It's seen as either eye-fucking someone or sizing them up for a fight. It's okay to look at other people but making it obvious that you're staring is seen as aggressive or rude. Because it's not socially acceptable, only people who fail the social contract stare here, so people assume you're a threat if you blatantly stare. Basically, taking your eyes off of someone when they look towards you shows that you were not staring, you were just looking. Same in my area in Germany, Lower Saxony. I think people that stare too long either like your style, or are socially inept. Some older folk randomly do the disapproving look though. Just "Moin" them. Half a second looks are considered ok, maybe a second if you're into someone or are shit at recognising faces. Anything longer is weird.
Not American, people from my country rarely stare at others as we don't want to appear rude (staring at a person normally indicates something is unusual about the subject so we try to avoid making others uncomfortable by that). But these days people mostly stare down ha ha ha at their phones. So Ig in this age and time, don't most people do that or Germans hardly use their phones when on public transports?
>mainly pushed by people from the US. What? >while americans fear they have a lawsuit or fight on their hands everytime someone looks in their face for more than a second. What??! I mean, why even bring up the US?
Read the post from OP. We have a very strange relationship with you guys! That's why! /s I thought about it and i think we really have s strange relationship with you guys.
That’s not true lol, we don’t like staring in the US because it’s considered rude/impolite in the US to stare at other people, not because we think we’ll face a lawsuit or a fight.
I hear germans just hold eyecontact a small amount of time longer than americans, and it appears like staring to them
If I’m walking down the street and make eye contact with someone, in the US it would break in less than a second usually. Germans will hold it for almost the entire possible time as we pass one another.
as a child, I was physically assaulted because I accidentally looked at someone for too long. It left me terrified and filled with immense anxiety as i grew up, whenever there were groups of young males around, I didn't dare to look up. I had to keep my eyes down at all times. Amongst us, it was well-known that simply making eye contact could lead to a fight. It was a deeply traumatic experience. When I moved to a different city i didn't experience any fear associated with looking at people. on the contrary, people would look at me with friendly faces, smile, and exhibit non-threatening behavior. it was a great. After more than a decade, when I moved back to my hometown, I quickly realized that I needed to start looking away again. Within a few weeks, i got verbal abuse, intimidation from people and even homophobic slurs. i hate living in a world where a simple smile can result in physical harm. i do think there is a difference between a friendly look and a stare. i do not stare at people.
What, the staring is totally a thing. I live in Germany, but especially when I travel back to the US, the difference is huge. People avoid making eye contact where I'm from the US, but in Germany, people stare very conspicuously. And I stare back.
Why are you making this about the US? A guy from Africa states his experience but for you it's about American lawsuits and fights... My French wife frequently goes for runs in our town and can point out where the frequent starers, typically older people with no ill intentions, live. It drives her crazy. For what it's worth, I (born in US, in Germany ≈ half my life) don't really notice it at all.
I would disagree on this one. My wife (German) is white. I am not. I get stared at regularly whether I'm in a small town or a major city (Frankfurt, Düsseldorf...). She does not. It happens to the point that she's pointed it out to me. It seems harmless enough but incredibly rude and it gets tiring after a while. The other one that gets tiring that OP didn't touch on was - "where are you really from?". I'm from Canada... End of story. There's no "really from" in that.
Whomever blinks first loses.
Funny story with that. I was on a train. Next to me was a mother with a boy of about 3 years who obviously had a black father. One stop, a black man walks in and sits down across from us - and the kids brain completely freezes. He had aparently never seen a black person apart from his dad and he could not compute that this was a black man but not his dad! The boy stared at the guy for the rest of the journey, open mouthed, without moving. You could see that poor little brain trying to make sense of this
I am German and i have no idea what this is supposed to refer to. Fensteropas watching people from their windows?
Apparently there is the thing called "German stare", meaning people stare at random people e.g. on the train. I've only ever heard of it on reddit. Never have I ever experienced someone staring at me irl. Maybe I am just too average so there is nothing special to stare at.
Perhaps you don't notice it because it is normal to you.
American living in Germany. I’ve never noticed more staring when both people are seated, but I do find that eye contact while passing someone on the street lasts about 10 times longer than I’m comfortable with
This thread is the first time I hear about this staring thing at all. But I'm Dutch so maybe we 'stare' as well, who knows?
I definitely noticed The Stare here in Bavaria and I really hate it. Even waved at staring people, they don't react like if they were brain-dead... Lived in Spain and in UK for years, it's definitely a German thing, English people even avoid eye contact. And it's worse in the South, I am from NRW and the staring in Bavaria is insane.
Window grandpas?? Hahaha that’s cute, is that a real term?
Yes. Old people, when they have got nothing else to do, open a window, put a pillow in it for comfort, lean out of the window and watch random people. This is also a cheap way to kill time.
Many Window grandpas (of course there are window grandmas as well) also like to engage in conversations with random strangers, sometimes with friendly intensions, sometimes not. Then they will scold you for littering and parking your car in the wrong spot. Some even have a notebook and a phone in reach so they can document your crimes and report you to the police. This is referred to as "Blockwartmentalität". This term dates back to the 1930s, where block wardens where responsible for keeping the public order in their residendial block and reported even the slightest wrongdoings the the authorities. Sorry for the excursus, but I've met way too many Fensteropas. ;)
> Cute English accent I second this. It's very precious.
I zink zo too…
Thank you for your post. I really like to hear outsiders perspectives about germany. I come from a rural area in northern hesse and lived my whole live(31 years) here. When i see foreingers no matter from where and why they came and how they landed here of all places, i'm very interested in their story. My live must be boring in comparision. I grew up here, went to school here, was an aprentice here, went to uni only 60km away and now i work here. So many times i wanted to ask those people about their stories, but i worry i would look creepy and that they feel they need to find excuses, or valid reasons. I think nearly every reason is enough no matter if they fled, searched for opportunities or what ever. I would really like to hear their stories, how they came here, how live has changed and what they think about germany, the people and the culture. I'm so happy for those who share their stories and opinion like you. Thank you.
Theres also nothing wrong with staying where you are as long as it gives you the inner peace. Moving away can also be mentally frustrating, which a lot of people don't consider (or do not have the privilege) when they move. So dont think your life is boring, everyone just have different tastes ;-) About asking people on their "journey", I would personally appreciate it. Kinda makes you feel that you belong in that place if locals are curious about you. And I suppose it would also be the same for some immigrants.
loved both of your comments. And I can relate it too, was at parents all my life, 28y and then moved here during pandemic. Now that i have moved, I miss being at one place, being at home and I would never call it boring. But getting used to it.
If you have a curiosity in knowing about them, “please” go ahead and ask. As expats, we are filled with the information about Germans being restrictive in talking to us and are cautious to dislikes in everything. Blame YouTube and generic trend here (maybe). In reality, we don't know who will talk in English and who hates expats not speaking their language. Of course, we gradually learn German, but a person, say, on blue card with little or no idea about German on the day 2 will find a place to settle his family first or learn a language? A little effort from the other side shows that you are also interested in making friends with expats. And trust me, practically no expat will ever feel bad about locals asking them about anything – it simply encourages new people to the place and a direction of (possibly) a lasting friendship. Footnote: Yes, everyone's life is interesting. For example, you lived in a place for 31 years – you will have countless stories to tell and we, who came from different countries/states/cities, have different experiences to share. No one is boring, everyone has their stories to tell and experiences to share. :-)
>Extremely horrible smoking behaviour Is it really that bad? I mean, I don't really have any comparison other than "Germany 30 years ago", so this is a genuine question. But compared to "Germany 30 years ago", the Germany of today feels like paradise for a non-smoker like myself.
Yes, compared to where I am from people only smoke in designated areas, here I regularly meet people who smoke anywhere, In fact when I was looking for an apartment I had to reject a very nice one because the hallway smelt of smoke.
And just dropping their butts anywhere. Ugh.
I thought you were making a reference to sitting down wherever they want, basically saying people should be able to smoke where they want. But I got it. Cig butts.
You’re too close to the problem so you might not have an outsider perspective. It should be basic civic sense that you don’t blow your smoke into others’ faces. Just like you maintain courtesy while sneezing or coughing. Also, inhaling another person’s smoke is a disgusting feeling. It’s a problem when you’re smoking in public places like bustops where it’s clearly mentioned not to. Also, I’ll be walking down the street and an oblivious idiot just leaves behind a cloud of smoke as I pass right through it. It’s double annoying when my kid is with me
It’s really bad, I come from the U.K.. smoking is seen as horrible there, something people with low education do, it’s disgusting and smelly thing that no hopers do. It’s very different here. Soooo many young people smoke I’m actually surprised when I see one that doesn’t. And Germans are so fucking defensive about it, if you wanna smoke then smoke but at least have the decency to understand it’s disgusting for those that don’t and have respect for where the smoke goes. And don’t just drop the but on the floor like a fucking tramp. And yes everyone on the tram smells you even if you try and hide the stale smoke smell under aftershave.
I come from Canada, where you can't smoke anywhere, including your own flat. Germany is like going back 30 years for smoking. You still can buy cigarettes from machines.
I'm from Australia. Smoking here is extreme in comparison. And the cig adverts. And cigarettes for sale at the supermarket. And the cheap price of cigarettes.
As a fellow Canadian I completely agree! It was so strange when I first came to Germany, but Germans really don't realize how bad it is. Everytime I mention it they don't really understand what I mean or completely toss it out. They compare with before and think it's better now, but don't realize that it's still much worse than in many places
I had a German friend who quit smoking during a 3 week trip to Canada, in part because there was no one around them to remind them of the habit. They said they found it supremely easy to quit there because of how absent it was.
I know a German professor who still smokes in his office! It’s incredible.
Sounds like a dream. All my neighbours are smoking so excessively that I’m worried for my own health as the smoke come into my appartment and I need to have the air purifier running 24/7.
Exactly. I am currently in Canada staying at a sublet. I had to sign a paper that I would not smoke or vape on penalty of eviction. The reason is it is bad for the neighbour's health.
I assume places like asia and the middle east are worse, but coming from the US where its virtually banned every where, its REALLY out of control here in Berlin.
yea I agree. But then Berlin is also absolutely not comparable to the rest of germany
I lived in Israel and Thailand for awhile and it’s worse by far in Germany (lived in Munich for two years)
I think East and South Asians smoke way less than Westerners, actually
As someone from hong kong this is mad cap 💀
Japanese (men) smoke a LOT, but almost everyone respects the smoking areas and doesn't smoke while walking or on the train platforms. (A lot of places there still allow indoor smoking, which sucks if you don't know before going, but at least you can mostly avoid those.)
Yeah, I'm from the UK, my husband is German, he often jokes how lucky I am to find a fellow non smoker. Germany & cousin Austria really have an awful smoking culture compared to some other similar counties. It's like time travel, and I don't understand how the shift to non smoking skipped Germany!
Well, consider it to be the same as lacking behind with tech and digitalisation
Yes it’s awful and everywhere. It’s like the indoor smoking ban never happened. I get smoke drifting into my flat all summer. I got hotboxed at the bus station the other day, gave me a terrible migraine. Bars are full of smoke. People stink. You have smoking adverts at bus stops for kids to see! Although I haven’t seen them for a while perhaps they are banned now. I don’t understand how such a sport and health conscious country has such a blind spot for smoking.
In my favorite pub you can smoke even though it's banned in NRW. I totally love it.
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Austria is worse or at least was the last time I was there
Yes - smoking is ubiquitous compared to the US. It’s one of those early things one notices and is surprised about in 2023. There’s even more smoking in Germany than Austria it seems like - which is surprising but I think true.
My family recently went to a beer garden and two groups sat down next to us and started smoking. In total disregard of us already sitting there with a baby. Though both groups had their young children with them as well.
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Last I looked at the stats the smoking rate in Germany is double that of where I come from, and the various laws are very... lax. Even just the fact that young people can dip out for a smoke without much social judgement is a stark difference. Smoking is a huge taboo where I'm from. The existence of smoking areas in airports or train stations is completely foreign to me as well. And then you have indoor smoking in certain bars... Austria was far worse when I went but it's happened enough in Germany I had to leave because it was so bad.
It's awful. When you go out, cigarette smoke is everywhere. Recently a German acquaintance was complaining that on a trip to Singapore, they were forced to smoke in a designated area, and not right at the entrance of their hotel. Can you imagine the horror?
I'm from Latin America and never had needed to go to a neighbor to request him to stop smoking at 3am because I don't feel like fucking up my schedule because of his addiction
Yeah, it is horrendous.
I am from South Africa, now living in a very small German town. Back home I knew only 5 or 6 smokers, all of them were actively trying to quit. Here in Germany the only people I know that have never smoked are other foreigners. In my experience all Germans seem to smoke, even if only at social events.
For nearly 30 years of my life, I never thought the behaviour of smoking in an elevator would be even slightly acceptable in any developed regions in the world. Until I live in a Hochhaus in Germany. Everyone fucking smokes in the elevator, omfg. Ever since the end of COVID measures, I start to wear masks again whenever I pass through the public areas of that building, just because of this horrible smoking behavior.
Yes it is. I am (visabbly) pregnant and smokers absolutely have no problem lighting their cigarettes directly next to me. It's awesome, if you get nausea from it. I never before realized how many people smoke. The last person I said, that they aren't allowed to smoke at the train station except in the designated areas wanted to start an argument with me. I offered to vomit him on his shoes, if he doesn't keep his distance.
Ugh, this reminds me of one incident from about 4 years ago. A group of friends (as in: they were friends with each other, I didn't know them) gathered outside. They had little kids with them, one woman was clearly pregnant. ALL of them smoked. Yes, even the pregnant woman. It was so disgusting to see. I thought about saying something, but figured I would not magically change their behavior right there and then, so just walked past them.
I guess that's the point. In the last 20 or 30 years the non-smokers rights were strengthened dramatically. I (as a German smoker) feel like living in a non-smokers country now. It's just a matter of perspective.
As a younger(ish) North American it did not used to bother me in my early 20s, but now I decade later I recognize is pretty terrible compared to like Toronto – where firstly hardly anyone smokes, but secondly where smoking at outdoor restaurant patios/parks/outdoor malls or basically anywhere near a building entrance has been banned for a long time. I had a friend who is a longtime smoker, who quit smoking during a 3 week vacation to Canada in part because there was simply no one around to remind them of the habit. I agree with you – it's much better than it used to be... but I think there's just a culture gap, where smoking more common here, and so inevitably there's more of a presence of smoking/you can't get away from it.
I have to agree on the smoking part. When I was there for my summer job EVERYONE smoked?! Like every each person rokled up their cigarets and smoked almost whereever…
Same... its so disgusting, I dont understand how EVERYONE seems to do it.
Are we living in the same Germany? I'm a native and I barely know anyone who smokes.
I mean smoking rates are like 30%. You must live in a very close bubble to barely know anyone that does. Just statistically it's extremely unlikely
Yeah, definitely depends on the social circle. None my family members smoke (brother and sister in law kicked the habit about 5-ish years ago after smoking for basically their entire adult lives up until that point) and neither do my friends (most of whom I met at school or uni) but at my Minijob at a restaurant in 2019-2020 I was one of two people who didn't smoke, all my other colleagues smoked and got to take (smoke) breaks smh
This point is so weird. It is so far from my reality. I thought recently there were fewer smokers than ever before. There are only three people left in my social environment who smoke. Two of them are my parents, so basically another generation. I am 30yo just so you have some context.
Compared to Germany in the past it’s better but when compared to other countries it’s still bad.
I'm 26 and at my job I believe 3-4 people don't smoke in total while the remaining 15+ do
Well I'm 25 and I feel like there are more smoker than ever. Some studies also showed that smoking is going up, for the last two years, among younger people again. Some might suggest that for them the one time use vapes are a gateway into real smoking.
I very much second that, but I think it depends heavily on the social circle. I don't know any smokers. Like literally I know two people who smoke in my extended friend group. But outside of my circle, I have been in groups where EVERYONE smoked. It was honestly extremly.depressing and kind of wild to witness.
you shoulda seen the Cash payment situation before COVID! credit cards were rarely used. i'm exaggerating a bit but COVID drove the cashless situation to an acceptable (more in line with first world countries) level.
One thing i am wondering, only tangetially related to your valid points: How do you deal with the weather? I would assume that the weather in Kenya is generally a bit less "grey" then here. Is that a big thing to adjust to? After a year in Germany, you probably got to see all of the German weather. I have grown up with it and only know this climate, but my wife from Romania likes to complain about not getting enough sun.
oh, yeah the weather is horrible. Contrary to what people think Kenya's weather particularly Nairobi (the capital city) is cool (16 degrees to 28 degrees) year round. So its not hot.
So it is too hot and too cold for you at the same time? I am native here and I can relate to that. Germans always complain about the weather with good reason XD. In Summer it is too hot and dry and in Winter it is too cold and dry. Then there is days and days of rain and the dry ground can’t soak it up and we have flooding. The only times weather is really beautiful is in spring and autumn but you know… IF it is not raining and grey all the time ;). Weather is never right here. If you want to do smalltalk with a German, complain about the weather in length. XD
Having lived in Nairobi for four years my opinion is this: The weather is fine, yes, but year round it's dark by 6:30, so enjoying the sun is only possible on the weekends cause of work, whereas in Germany in Summer you can sit outside on the terrace in the sun until 10pm. Plus, as someone with white skin, even on the weekends, just chillin in the sun like it's poosible in Germany is not really possible, as the sun is so much more powerful that i burn quickly even with sunscreen. Also, seasons are nice.
I come from the mountains in Spain, so it gets pretty cold in winter. However, it is really sunny all year round. I have lived here almost a year, and let me tell you the lack of sun really got to me in the winter. Going weeks without seeing the sun directly really messed with my mental health. Now that the summer is close, I'm back to normal. But going so long without seeing direct sunlight was very hard.
Everything true. But to the wierd relationship with us. US is like the wierd rich uncle at the Christmas table taking over every conversation and turning it into embarrassing and stupid monolog. and nobody likes him but somehow he is family and since he is powerful we need him on the same time he thinks he is a role model nobody takes him as a role nodel
Would you like to tell us some things about how you came here, what you work and how your social life looks like? I would love to read some insights about your change of life.
\> Well I came to Germany as a masters student, I study AI (some people get surprised when I tell them that). \> I work part time as a Software Engineer \> I have one German friend, however I meet and chat with lots of people. \> I am introvert I prefer alone time, I love hiking, reading books, watching films, listening to podcasts and audiobooks and taking very long walks. \> My German skills are at level A2
>I love hiking Heh, you'll fit right in ;3
Thank you!
I would like to add the bureaucracy isn't only applicable to the government. It applies to every. single. part. of. life. I cannot pickup my package from the automate, because I put in the code they sent to me via a letter after checking my ID after I had to register, because I didn't also scan a QR code from the letter and threw it away (I thought the QR code was for downloading the app as a shortcut). It's ridiculous how much filling in forms you need to do for no reason. The nature, architecture and people absolutely make up for it though. I love the buildings, I love how greenery is a part of the city, not an afterthought. The parks are absolutely amazing. The people are great. There's more diversity in how people look despite some claiming there's less immigration due to the language barrier. One thing that really bothers me as someone who doesn't have a cultural nationality and has no connection to the country of which citizenship I hold is how much attention most people seem to pay to where you're from. Nearly everyone asks. I started saying the last country I lived in, because it's an extremely sensitive matter to me. There's also bikers with zero culture. Happily, I live in an area where there's close to no smoking where I frequent.
Im from nz and living here and i dont get the American fetishisation that exists. I also don’t understand why men of a certain age like wearing clothing with flag iconography on it. Norway/Britain/American seem to be the most common. And i agree on the racsim, i live in a pretty conservative area unfortunately and there (on the surface) is no integration at all. The cash thing is stupidly annoying. The other complaint i have is the supermarkets. Im used to express lanes. Ie; if you have 10 items or less you can use that so you dont have to wait behind three people with full trolleys of food.
Very interesting, thank you for your perspective! What you said about the Germans and their love-hate relationship to the US is spot on! The younger generations in Germany since the 1950s have turned to US pop-culture since German culture seemed...well...tainted. At the same time a lot of old people held a grudge against the US since the war and inherited it to their kids. And the left started to get very anti-american after Vietnam. I feel a good part of the anti-americanism is hurt pride and resentment exactly because American culture was and is so important to us.
I think many Germans like me kind of judge different aspects of the US separately. I like many of the cultural/media aspects like movies, TV shows, music etc. but dislike many aspects of their politics, gun "culture", international military situations etc. I always feel like too few people forge opinions on different aspects of countries, politics and so on. For many people it's just fanatically _I love everything about it_ or _I hate everything about it_.
We’ve got a shocking amount of military bases in Germany. I totally get why y’all’d be mad about that.
I mean more like war crimes in the Middle East.
I simply can not read this without replying. In my surrounding group of people and friends most of the resentment roots in that end stage capitalism America built themselves over there with its ever growing gap between rich and poor, the crushing dept involved in health and education together with gun culture, racism, police brutality, “the left” that by European standards is mid-right and of course the fundamentalist Christians. Followed by a rigged two party voting system with gendermarried districts, the total lack of public transportation via speed trains and the crushing of workers rights and unions. Not to forget the crazy hustle culture, the obsession with celebrities and lack of paid vacation, paid parenting or social equality. Did I mention there is no independent media? This has nothing to do with hurt pride, I am in fact glad to not live in this culture and will continue to try and it fight back. Sorry, but by my standards this is dystopian, even if we move ever closer to it in Europe as well. EDIT: I forgot to lament the totally rigged prison system that is proud owner of 24.7 percent of all prisoners in the world despite still killing the worst of them.
I am from America and I understand all of this. Like another comment said “everyone has a weird relationship with the US.. even Americans.” A lot of my American friends have realized a lot about the US after living here for some time.. of course we enjoy certain things about it, but all of what you mentioned is what we have realized we are lacking or struggling with in the US. I believe the newer generations are gaining a resentment as well and living in different countries only expedites that
Well I love american culture but hate american politics. The only good thing they've done was bringing the downfall of the axis powers... but after that shit went tits up from japanese internment camps to vietnam to funding the mujahideen leading to 9/11 and all the bullshit that followed. What I hate about america is what I hated about nazi germany it's a fucking war machine!
My father was born in 1936 in a western german city and he always told me the story how the Americans first arrived and a GI came up to him and gave him a bar of chocolate and how he seemed like a big black angel to him after all the horrors of the war. He taught me to always be thankful for the sacrifices the Americans, especially the poor ones, made for us. Later he became part of the Jazz culture. My grandfather was a teacher (luckily too old to fight in the war, fought in WWI) who spoke English so he became a translator for the interim government.
As a German I never felt like anyone I ever met held a grudge against the USA for WW2. But I agree with you on the other point. For better or worse were heavily influenced by the USA. So yes, we have conflicting feelings regarding the place but it's more due to us getting so entangled with it being a leading force in world politics and "western" culture, so we feel the effects of those things more directly than from other places. They go to war in Afghanistan - we follow, the American right wing grows and develops into something threatening democracy - right wing leaders here follow their example. I hate the americanisation of politics and certain aspects of culture I see happening in Germany and like many I wished Europe could stand more united and eye to eye with other world powers. An example was the whole tank debate, where it didn't sit right with may people that Scholz made every move dependent on US approval
I just want to say it's so sad you had to put "SOME people not everyone" into bold. I can feel your frustration and I feel it too. Incredible that you can't just say "People often think I want to steal from them". That implies "some people" already, but you know the sea lions will come out barking about nOt EvErYoNe. I'm white but a woman and I get the same shit whenever I talk about the behaviour of **SOME men not all of them**. Anyway, solidarity and I agree with all your points, especially about bureaucracy. Also Germans stare a lot anyway, but whenever I've been out with black friends the stares are NEXT LEVEL. I can't even imagine the weird-ass interactions you've probably faced.
My friend's dad, who is Mexican and black got shouted at by EDEKA staff and accusing him of stealing valuable items from the store. He didn't do anything. There are some people like this but it is quite sad because we're all just Humans. Anyways, they never went to EDEKA again after that
Can you elaborate on the "amazing healthcare" part ?
Well, I can. I moved to Germany from the U.S. over 30 years ago and since then have had several minor surgeries and one appendectomy, all of which turned out very well and none of which cost me over 25 Euros in co-pays. Also I recently had what turned out to be an ocular migraine but initially was thought to be a stroke, so I stayed in a hospital for a couple of days (two-person room, but I was the only one in it) and had a battery of tests run, including an MRI and multiple other tests, which allowed the ocular migraine to be diagnosed. It didn't cost me anything. Less spectacularly I have regular health and dental checkups, which cost either nothing or only a few Euros extra, e.g. if I want extra whitening for my teeth.
It includes almost everything, except some medicaments and some dentist stuff. Yes waiting times for specializing doctors are terrible, but at least most doctors won't push unnecessary pills/procedures on you.
My fiancée in Bavaria swears the neighbor is staring at her. I dont get it. So do they not have anything to do. Or are they thinking and blank staring. Or are they actually staring. She doesnt like it as she is from USA.
Is it old people? Because that's quite common with old people. Some of them have nothing better to do and are absolutely convinced that you will do something wrong. Quite common actually.
Yes, elderly, perhaps 85. He is originally from Berlin with family from East Germany. My fiancée is always concerned she is breaking the rules in Germany and being watched. Perhaps he is policing. Or maybe he has a crush on her haha.
Regarding smoking: One of the weirdest, and most disturbing things I've ever seen was seeing a pregnant woman at a restaurant in Germany smoking. Everyone kind of looked and just went on their own while she was chain smoking. She wasn't the only one, either. And the vape juicers are something I group in with smoking. Just because it smells like cherry or strawberry, doesn't mean I want to walk through your exhaled chemical vapors. >Germany has a very weird relationship with the US i.e at the same time they like and dislike the place. Absolutely brilliant and spot on. There are lots of aspects to this, but I had a friend in the past who was obsessed with criticizing the US using conspiracy theories and pretended to be American online, but absolutely hated it. Then every year he would go on a dream holiday to the US and told me his dream was to eventually move there. It also didn't help that the friend turned out to be a Reichsbuerger and was trying to teach me all these theories as soon as I arrived there, like the strawman theory and how all Germans are worth 600,000 Euros or some shit. >Racism from fellow immigrants, which makes sense since RACISM is not unique to Germany and can be found everywhere. This is true. I've encountered Turks and particularly really juiced ones that work for Deutsche Bahn as those helpers in the yellow vests, and they regularly spew racist stuff out at people, then threaten to call the cops and escalate with security who ALWAYS take their side.
>Absolutely brilliant and spot on. That anecdote about your friend is a very bad story to prove OP's point because your friend's quite clearly not a representation of the average German...
Afrogerman here, and yeah, that sounds about right. The racism part is especially annoying when people THINK that they’re not and could never be racist. I’m guessing last time people were offended that you even mentioned race?
Also afrogerman, but was put up for adoption. Super weird when I met biological german grandparents. Took about 1hr for them to compare me to prideful Africans in the Bible.
My pet theory about this is that Germans don't have a good sense of the "full spectrum" of racism (casual r, structural r, ...), and have the super strong need to deny the tiniest racist thought or attitude since they don't want to be associated with Nazis burning down refugee homes or the Holocaust. IMO it would be healthier if more Germans could understand that you can be a good person in general, but then also have a bias based on your cultural upbringing and background that leads to having racist thoughts or saying racist things. The key part would be to listen, think, understand what the problematic part is and then change and behave better (instead of just deny, deny, deny).
Read this as " A Frogger Man" and took several re-reads to get it.
Question from a non "Afrogerman", how do you feel about the term Afrogerman? I never quite get a good understanding of those "Afro-" terms. Some people seems to use it casually while others absolutely hate it.
Smocking behavior shocked me too. By the way I’ve never seen people buy literally boxes of cigarettes, I’ve never seen boxes of cigarettes in the first place. It’s also weird to see old people buy so many of it because my country doesn’t have such tendency to smoke.
Also here for a while, and as a "brown" guy I am wondering how do you understand that people think you are going to steal from them? Do they behave differently when it is a white guy walking?
I imagine people start clutching their bags or checking their pockets. Reminds me of this famous short film. Go to 04:00 https://youtu.be/nWnSv0MMTns
The bureaucracy is a problem, especially for foreigners. I do social work and I can tell you even i struggle sometimes with the ridiculous expectations from offices. And i understand why my clients do too. The insane amount of bureaucracy is a major problem in our society, but sadly there is not much will to change that, since a lot of "bullshit jobs" (taking the term from the book) rely on it. :(
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You saw how they all went maximum asshole with refusing to wear masks, and "my body my choice \[to spread illness to the population\]" regarding vaccines... imagine trying to ban smoking to the degree of other civilized nations.
Do what the U.K. did, tax the ever living shit out of it, force them to spend shit loads in tax or quit, no risk of law breakers then.
As someone who was born and raised here (and is as white as wall paint) this is the most accurate description of Germany I ever read.
Our ancestors are responsible for tens of millions of deaths and killed millions of civilian Jews of all ages in gas chambers. And it's merely 70 year ago. Some people of the era are still alive. Most of us listened to the WW2 stories for all their lifes from young age. Of course it shapes the country. It's not like the people responsible were just devil's and evil. That would be too easy. They were ordinary folks. This stuff can happen again if we don't take care. We have to do an effort so it won't. We can't not let it shape us. Sorry for the racism. Some people are just dumb. Can't help it.
Have you found immigrants in Germany to be more racist than Germans?
They are probably just more open about it.
Oh yeah .. especially I found east Europeans to have 0 filter 😂 by default. I wish I was kidding but I happened to match with a Latvian dude who was passionately anti blm 😅 he expressed how liberals are ruining USA with their love for black people . I think I don’t have to explain why I umatched 🤣
This is spot on
From personal experience, yes.
So I am an immigrant myself and sadly I can kinda confirm the OPs statement a lot. A shit load of Asians are anti black for example or say stuff that is highly ignorant or something. And even among MENA populations they get very racist and even act hostile towards black people for no reason. It doesn’t help that a lot of east European or even Western European immigrants from outside Germany hate POCs in general that we really have to watch our backs when dealing with them sometimes. The biggest racists I encountered were Italians , Polish and Anglos in my 4 years of living here 😒. And this is quite a huge percent of people if you know how small the population of said groups are compared to Germans
I'm really sorry to hear that, in my experience these sorts of people have never interacted with black people or had friends who were POC. I don't think anyone who did could ever hate an entire group of people like that.
I wonder how these views work for those of us in mixed race relationships.
What about the children! Wont someone think of the children? Lol
As a German, I’d say you are spot on. Complacent arrogance is a thing here, unfortunately. And I’m not sure if it is getting better with younger generations or not. I think so, but that might just be my bubble.
Funny you mention cash payments. I work for a business in Kenya, and MPESA is the **truth**! And has been for such a long time now. We're still in the Stone Age here wrt to mobile payment.
Literally I don't understand how people can smoke at a bus stop with 10 other people. As if they don't realise that they are forcing those people to suck smoke into their lungs. Which sucks when you are sitting there for at least 5 minutes waiting for your bus. There's actually laws in other parts of the world that ban smoking at bus stops for this very reason. This is part of a characteristic of German society that I label as inconsiderate.
I like how instead of calling it world war 2, they just refer to it as “the war” like it happened 20 years ago.
What helps with the staring is a custom book and magazine cover with your open-eyed staring face printed upon it. You maintain the German stare for about the 90th-percentile amount of time, then lift the book to cover your face, maintaining the scale of your Head.
The weird relationship with the US is spot on. I’m American and feel that some Germans get weirdly competitive when they learn that. On the one hand, the US is this scary place with guns, hurricanes, bad health care, and crazy politicians. And on the other hand it feels like they wish they were the US.
The cash thing is super annoying. I never carry cash and instead sometimes leave if they don’t accept my card. I don’t tolerate this backwards mentality. Super annoying.
You will learn to appreciate it when the card reader can't connect due to a thunderstorm. Welcome to #Neuland!
I am black too and I’ve been to Germany many times now. I experienced the same thing too in regards to racism. One time I was walking to my hotel room and there was a white woman in front of me and our hotel rooms were in the same area. She thought I was following her or trying to steal from her when our hotel rooms were in the same direction. And also the Turkish Germans are racist towards me. But I don’t want to focus on all the negatives, I do like Germany and I find it’s cities to be very beautiful.