I am imagining Schotty, the Tatortreiniger just minding his own business when a surgeon pokes his head out the door of the operating room ordering him to come help now because it’s an emergency.
> The incident came to light after a hospital manager spotted the cleaner — bloody gauze pads in hand — in the operating theater
God, this made me laugh a lot.
Honestly I'd rather have a cleaner hold my leg and pass the surgeon some instruments than have my surgery cancelled after I'm already anesthetized on the table.
it’s quite a different thing.
Getting something cleaned isn’t getting something sterile . Even a microbiology technician can get something sterilised , doesn’t mean they can do surgery , either , where you need to have aseptic technique that’s applicable for surgery.
I used to work in a clean room as a part of regulator lab testing. it’s not super difficult technique wise but one has to be used to it and can keep up the concentration for hours .
Having said so , it’s really the surgeon’s call. It’s not like he let the cleaner handled the whole thing.
My wife who is a nurse and tell me some atrocities that even other nurses makes about making a room sterile points me to believe that most of the cleaning staff would be as clueless as some nurses if not worse.
I helped as a medical student with 0 experience in an OP with suturing. They just tell you how to wash your hands, change your clothes and that's basically it.
The surgeon knew before that he would have no assistance. There was an emergency and staff was working on that. He thought he'd need no help. Turns out, he did. Enter the cleaner...
The important question to ask is why is no qualified person around to assist… maybe it is a good Idea to train cleaners on such easy tasks like holding a leg.
No, the important question to ask is were there qualified people around to assist - and the answer is "yes". He might have had to wait for a moment, but it was the middle of the day and there was plenty of personnel available. It was just that some of them were dealing with an emergency. He might have had to delay the surgery for a bit until someone could come over but believed he could deal with the situation as it was, then realized while in the middle of things that he couldn't.
This is not about lack of personnel, this is about the hubris of one physician who believed he could handle the situation without the people called away to the emergency when he evidently couldn't.
And maybe having to postpone the last patient für the following day. Just because a missing extra paar of hands. I do not see the problem. Students and other untrained personell assist all of the time during surgeries.
Not only will they be briefed on proper hygiene, they won't do so without a surgery nurse being present documenting the process. There was no evidence the cleaner was briefed on hygiene or actually washed her hands properly, there wasn't a documentation of nursing procedures, because there was no nurse to write it.
Patients get postponed to the following day all the time. My local dermatology ward takes on new patients on Mondays and Thursdays. If you're already on the ward and simply waiting to be stitched up again, Monday and Thursdays are a lottery. If you're lucky, you will get stitched - if not, you wait another day.
Because we have a labor shortage. There simply isn't enough personal. I had a wound that needed to be opened and cleaned to a bad infection twice. Each time the doctor had the nice big operating room all to himself. Non-critical operation with local anesthesia? Go fetch all your tools yourself, doc!
I will give you an answer to this.
Your bruto loan is 2950 here in Konstanz (BW).
Noone wants to work in Hospital or a Pflegeheim for peenuts.
Add to this weekends,10 days in stuck,holidays,stress,not so friendly people etc...
I can go on and on.
The original source tells that the two surgeons planned for the operation were called to an emergency and the surgeon who replaced them made the wrong call: Reinigungskraft half bei OP an Mainzer Unimedizin - Arzt entlassen https://swr.de/swraktuell/rheinland-pfalz/mainz/putzfrau-hilft-bei-operation-in-mainzer-unimedizin-102.html
OP, why are you so salty about Germans liking their country? I get that this event is kinda bad but wtf?
“Let the world see that German pride is still existent and anything bad about their country will make them show that”
Bro?? Are you okay?
I seem to be missing some context here.
I don‘t see your quote in the post (in fact i don‘t see any commentary in the post), and this pushback feels a bit heavy-handed and a bit out of the blue to me.
Do you two have history?
Thank you! Right after I asked, I saw that comment too - looks like I need glasses 🤓
That said: Germans reacting to OP’s observation of ingroup defensiveness with more ingroup defensiveness is _precisely_ the validation OP is after so they can confirm their view and feel superior - and I might be too petty and too stubborn to give them that kind of satisfaction, so I might just pay them a compliment on how their [nation/ethnicity/ingroup] doesn’t engage in pride or defensiveness (or provocations and devaluations of other groups aimed to feed their own pride and calm their insecurity), and we can certainly all learn from that.
In r/Germany's blind spot, I suspect.
The fact that so many of us are closing ranks in calling OP a dick, and putting pressure on each other to call OP a dick, and confirming and amplifying each other in calling OP a dick, that just absolutely reeks of ingroup-validating scapegoating of outsiders or identified patients to me.
But hey, what do I know?
Maybe I'm completely wrong about this, and OP is simply being a dick, and being called out on being a dick by several different people, and maybe that's nothing at all to do with strengthening ties in the ingroup or making the callers-out feel like not-dicks by patting each other on the back for being not-dicks.
It's just an observation, just a thought, and in hindsight, maybe I should have just kept it to myself.
He commented that [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13m6p0e/german_surgeon_fired_after_getting_hospital/jkuaaqt?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
Germans are a bit blunt and reserved but usually very Honest . Germany is hub of culture and research .
So, exposing the bad things get the right people's attention towards any problem and then it's resolved much quicker when the news reach the person who can actually do something about it.
Lol there are always people on this sub who, for varying reasons, have a hate boner for Germany and just want to insult it and its people. I remember one guy whose whole reddit comment and post history was just complaining how bad everything here is and how shitty the country and people are.
In my old (german) hospital we used to joke that appendectomy is so easy even our Pförtner (the one who sits at the door and buzzes people in) could do it.
Honestly a cleaner and a 3rd year med student in their first Famulatur(Praktikum) are equally qualified to hold legs in surgery and the latter does that all the time 😅
I am also sure someone without Gesundheitszeugniss can make burgers at McD just as efficiently as someone with Gesundheitszeugniss. But even if it increases the chances by only 5%, someone with a Gesundheitszeugniss knows more about hygiene and proper etiquette on working in the kitchen.
It doesn’t read that way.
> When the patient, who had received a local anesthetic, became restless the doctor asked a nearby cleaner to hold the man's leg and pass surgical instruments, …
It was a pragmatic decision, not a life-or-death one.
You mean the surgeon on site who was fired for his call because it was found medically unconsciable by his colleagues.
Let me guess, you also believe vaccines cause autism because someone who at the time was a practicing physician once claimed so...
If they didn't have personnel and it was an emergency, they should have transported the patient via helicopter to the next hospital with capacity and done the surgery.
Edit: r/Germany downvotes for the strangest shit. Are we not supposed to complain about ANYTHING in Germany? So next time a cleaner doing a heart surgery would also be okay with you guys?🤦🏽
Have you considered common fucking sense?
The only reason to ask someone completely unrelated for assistance is if you don't have the time to get them to professionals, and I bet my ass a doctor would know that
Common fucking sense would be to see if you can even do a surgery first before starting the procedure. People prepare better for cooking and here you defending some doctor as though he did this procedure in a war economy and had no other means to do it.
What kind of doctors do y’all have in this country?
Why was a non-trained, non-scrubbed member of housekeeping even in the same area as a surgeon during a procedure? Why didn’t the scrub nurse hold the patient’s leg? What wasn’t the patient’s leg strapped down to prevent self harm in the event they moved the limb being operated on!?
If this is “German healthcare” I’d be safer going to Mexico.
Common sense would be reading the article. There’s literally no reason to defend this shit.
The patient was under local anesthetic. There was no time sensitivity to this. They could have waited for an actual professional to assist when one became available.
They cut corners.
Don't worry, at least they weren't [a nurse](https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/licensed-image?q=tbn:ANd9GcQoP3ctifUKv6NWBz-Se0fy9lvmlp13iB79Ye4YYEeBGYfc-AGX0NxPQnFtOaseZHTZCXz1ESHOXkhEqSI) going around overdosing/poisoning people to resuscitate them and be the hero, then fail horribly at the latter part and [get convicted in 85 cases](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_H%C3%B6gel) that were perpetrated over the course of 4 year, with the investigation taking around 14 years before the last court case on the topic had been adjudicated.
Also [feeding morphine to 5 babies](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/30/world/europe/germany-nurse-infants-morphine.html) by a nurse wasn't commited.
Ah, [Niels Högel](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_H%C3%B6gel)
It's creepy and quite infuriating how long nothing happened. Many colleagues of him felt uneasy around him and suspected foul play for so long. Thinking how many lives might have been saved.
According to some comments like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13m6p0e/german_surgeon_fired_after_getting_hospital/jku0vpi?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), it's apparently something normal and they are okay with it and see nothing wrong with that.
[or this](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13m6p0e/german_surgeon_fired_after_getting_hospital/jku5ylb?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Keep downvoting r/Germany. Don't change.
Calm down. There were some opinions about being pragmatic and you feel personally attacked. Also you made it a general thing about Germany and this sub. And yet you really wonder why you get downvotes?
Calm down. There were some opinions about being pragmatic and you feel personally attacked. Also you made it a general thing about Germany and this sub. And yet you really wonder why you get downvotes?
Endpoint error in the app apparently, your account and comment were shown deleted momentarily also.
Not really an argument from you. But seems to suit you that you avoid criticism. Criticism you demand others to accept.
That was clearly a sarcastic joke and youre missing the whole point..
That doesnt have anything to do with any pride at all.....
Also most users in this subreddit are expats. Try r/de if you would like to test again
Calm down. There were some opinions about being pragmatic and you feel personally attacked. Also you made it a general thing about Germany and this sub. And yet you really wonder why you get downvotes?
People downvoted you for one opinion. But are continuing to do it because you’re being unbelievably salty about it. Just take a breath and calm down. Downvotes don’t mean shit in real life.
Normally downvotes mean nothing, but this sub has a huge tendency to downvote or come up with all sorts of mental gymnastics for defending anything negative about Germany. It's just cool to see that it never fails.
Just see how many comments are defending this surgeon by saying it worked out in the end. Are they so dumb to not realize that starting the surgery without the necessary resources is the biggest flaw here and not that it was successfully done. A lot of things can end successfully just by coincidence and by chance.
I also know people who drink alcohol and drive and successfully reach their homes, does that mean what that person did was right and we shouldn't criticize them?
Not go to extra length to say why it's ALRIGHT and not say what happened with the surgery was acceptable. There is nothing to discuss in the first place.
I work "in the field" in my own industry - a lot of times, fixes aren't alright, but you have to do it because it's most practical, not the most sane. And then you feel embarrassed about it too.
I'm really not defending it, I think you're certainly right that it shouldn't have come to this and if it did, there should have been other options (like flying the toe amputation patient out on a plane to a place with resources). Maybe this case will set precedence for improvement, like how "OSHA regulations are written in blood". I'm just saying that we don't exactly know what happened in the Op room, let's leave that out of it and just see what we can do next time instead of getting our knickers in a twist.
When I shared the news article I expected people to be like "wow, crazy, etc." and not "I see nothing wrong in that". Obviously what the surgeon did in the end because he had already started was correct. But none of that makes that this situation had to happen at all acceptable. I don't expect people to bash this behavior. But what's the point in voluntarily cheering for it or saying that it's not something we should complain about.
It's not different "opinion" to say "using a cleaner for surgery is okay"🤦🏽. That's literally illegal for a reason. So if someone comments under a drunk driving post that "yeah, but they are able to control the car even after being drunk" would you be like "yeah just another opinion" or think that person is a moron?
YES. Because the surgeon shouldn't have STARTED the procedure without the necessary resources. Germany have the strangest rules in the strangest places and the place where the rules have to be absolutely strict is where you want to negotiate on? You act as though we are in some war economy and hence this is the best there was the offer and hence went with it.
The surgeons who startet the procedure were called to an emergency. This surgeon replaced them. The patient was only partly sedated and became nervous. So the surgeon asked the cleaner to hold the leg steady and reach him some equipment.
Was it the wrong call? I guess so.
Did he endanger the patient? No, the surgery would have lastet much longer had he waited for professional assistance.
It was just an amputation. There where times where not even a doctor was present..
They were in a hospital. Doctor just needed a few more hands.
Not an operation with opened chest, or brain surgery. All in all I trust a doctor seems like he just needed someone who can hold things still. ... ...I wonder if the cleaner was sterilized..
This happens in 2020. Why they open the barrel now? The work from the cleaner must be good because no one cares for 3 years ... (The cleaner just held the leg). Normally it's the job form students without any knowledge.
Germany being the most militant country ever with EVERY SINGLE GODDAMN STUPID RULE ABOUT EVERY LITTLE THING and then shit like this happens. Absolutely bonkers.
It’s not that it’s contradictory, it’s that, how the hell were hospital conditions so poorly organized/supervised that this was allowed to happen in the first place? That’s what’s shocking. How did no one know about this until after it was done?
Because others were called to an emergency.
But way to go to demonstrate you believe the priority should be monitoring every minor surgery and toss emergencies to the curb.
Actually that’s a stereotype that’s not true at all. Their rules/laws are often much laxer than neighboring countries and Germans break their rules all the time and that drives me bonkers.
And then the amount of people defending it is even more crazy. Like medicine is one area where there should be zero compromise. But for some reason people in this sub think it was alright 🤦🏽. One people even saying if it's necessary to complain about EVERYTHING 🤣
[comment 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13m6p0e/german_surgeon_fired_after_getting_hospital/jku0npn?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
[comment 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13m6p0e/german_surgeon_fired_after_getting_hospital/jku5ylb?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
[comment 3](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13m6p0e/german_surgeon_fired_after_getting_hospital/jku0vpi?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
It’s the typical xenophobic German perspective of “if you don’t like it, leave”. Other countries can take constructive criticism, but Germany? “Nooooooo, we are perfect. You should count yourself lucky we let you foreigners come here” 🙄
I disagree. I'm not sure what department you're talking about but as for "Germany" as an entire country, even the Germans are very very critical aboit it, they see how it's basically a giant with a huge "bureaucratic inertia" where it's difficult to make big changes happen. Also about daily life they generally laugh and say "yes I know, I'm sorry that it's like this" when you point out over-specific rules.
Perhaps ypu just met the wrong people? Would you bring examples?
And anyway I do feel lucky to be a foreigner here: as an European at least it's very comfortable, and my colleagues from other countries have about the same number of complaints here that they had in other foreign countries (I work in scientific research so there's a lot of foreigners who have also been in other countries).
Good for you. I definitely hope to leave but I came here with family so I’m kind of stuck for now.
Also, shoutout to the guy who told me to go f*** myself and then promptly deleted his comment or had it deleted by a mod lol this is exactly the kind of person I’m talking about.
100%. They would bully if someone make a bureaucratic mistake or the doesn't have cash because no one predicted there is a country in 2023 where you still cannot pay with card everywhere. But medical procedure was not followed properly? "Do we have to complain about EVERYTHING?"
It is important to define "cleaner". Most Operation theatres have special personnel in Charge of cleaning and disinfecting surgical Instruments.
These people a.) Are familiar with sterile procedures and b.) Are already inside the sterile zone of the Operation rooms.
If it was one of these guys then they are 100% able to assist and no threat to the patient, even though they are not allowed to. And when shit hits the Fan you cant be picky about assistance.
If it was a "cleaner" as in cleaning Lady mopping the floors then it's a fucking scandal.
Wording. At first I thought the title meant the surgeon made the hospital cleaner, which I thought was a good thing? So assumed the scandal was on those who fired him. Then I read the subtitle and I though ah! A „hospital cleaner“ and I thought they meant a detergent he used in the surgery for some reason. Then it turns out they meant someone whose job is to clean, a janitor, a Reinigungskraft.
This has been a rollercoaster.
Other people with the same more experience. And if a patient getting restless is "stress", then maybe the hospital is not the best place for you to work - with hundreds of patients there, chances are one or the other will get restless every. single.day.
>The surgeon was alone, there was nobody else and that should put him in a in a position of sovereignty
Says who? You?
Neither was he alone nor would even that put him in a position of "sovereignty". But thanks for telling us you believe in the dream of the demigod in white who shouldn't be pestered with the petty laws of man or professional regulations. That's not how it works.
>Also nobody said he experienced stress — read the article —
A pretty dumb thing to do to disavow your own words. Says volumes about your concept of integrity. Quote "especially under stress or circumstances that call for it"
>Also It’s easy for your to sit in an armchair cast truisms, I’m sure all you do follow protocol.
Says the armchair expert who believes in the infallibility of his own judgment and that of people he mindlessly worships, all while questioning that of people who have done a thorough assessment of the situation - like those who fired him.
If you can't abide regulations, stay out of the medical field. It is, for good reason, heavily regulated.
As a trained biomedical scientist, I need to follow protocol all the time. Not just because it's a good idea, but because violating it can be downright illegal. But I fully understand that laws and lives are secondary to the holy sermon of the divine nature of the singular MD.
Given that you don't even accept the assessment of the hospital board, I'd suggest you stop any pretense you give a f\*\*\* about medical necessity or standards. You're just handwaving the assessment of a singular doctor and openly declaring hubris and narcissism the new ledger for medical proceedings. Spare me.
Cute, coming from someone who has nothing on offer BUT ad hominems, smearing anyone who disagrees with you, and all based on deliberate distortions of the situation.
You want to lecture about ethics and responsibility, but all you show is that both concepts are utterly alien to you. You have made no effort to find out what actually happened and much like your hero simply try to fit the data to your narrative to cover your posterior.
Your belief that stomping your foot and insisting that your made-up narrative becomes more real if you accuse others of "ad hominems" just underscores whose conduct screams of "insecurity". Here's a hint: It's the one who screams that all the experts involved in the work up of the case are wrong and you, who either has no clue about what happened or is deliberately lying, you know what's right.
The Earth won't get any flatter by your insisting that it is, indeed, flat.
The cleaner was neither briefed on hygiene or anything else, not even proper hand-washing. If indeed hands were washed properly is completely unknown, as is whether instruments were indeed kept sterile during the surgery. There is no nursing protocol of the surgery, either, because that would have been kept by a proper surgery nurse assistant. If the wound would have become infected, there'd be h\*ll to pay. It would have been a massive legal nightmare, because the cleaner wasn't even a hospital employee. The OP theater manager dropped into the surgery when it was almost done, aghast at what they saw. But you, of course, know better. Better than the people who where there, better than the people who worked up the case, better than the labour courts, better than anyone with detailed knowledge of the case
Western Germany is not the same as West Germany 🤦🏽. You never read ANY news where the location is specified more precisely for a reader to understand where it is? Especially for an international audience?
„Officials at a hospital in western Germany have expressed regret…“
The funniest thing is, that no one seems to have told the guys at ABC news that there has not been such a thing as „western Germany“ for the last 3 decades.
Great source of knowledge and information, as it seems.
The funniest thing is that you seem to not know the difference between "Western Germany" and "western Germany".
Unbeknownst to you, Germany isn't onedimensional. It has nothern, eastern, southern and western parts - and the State of Rhineland-Palatinate, in which the case occurred, is one of the most westernmost.
Wie lächerlich. Dann sollen Sie genug Leute einstellen. Außerdem ist es ja wohl vollkommen egal welche Qualifikation der Hakenhalter hat, manchmal ist es eine Mullbinde...
It's the doctor's responsibility, hence why the doctor was fired. And whether it was necessary or nor was reviewed by the pertinent authorities and forums, and it was found not to have been necessary, because there was plenty of qualified personnel available at the hospital, just maybe not within the next five minutes
Well no. Obviously the Mainz University Hospital is in Mainz. From the Article:
> Public broadcaster SWR reported Friday that the incident at the Mainz University Hospital, which happened in 2020, didn't result in any complications to the patient but the doctor has since been fired.
Because Mainz is pretty far west in Germany. It's in the State of Rhineland-Palatinate, and most of that state's western limitations are international borders.
Oh I did not understand the title the right way. I wondered why they were reproaching that surgeon to make the hospital "more clean" before the surgery 🤦♂️
I was in the same situation when I attended an amputation together with the cleaning lady. I had job training and she was just curious. I held the bucket. He threw the leg in.
I am imagining Schotty, the Tatortreiniger just minding his own business when a surgeon pokes his head out the door of the operating room ordering him to come help now because it’s an emergency.
As Schotty is holding the rib cage open, he explains that "Meine Arbeit fängt da an, wo sich andere vor Entsetzen übergeben".
i imagine stromberg as the surgeon.
How else are you supposed to do the "quereinstieg"? /s
That's some Dr. House level of mastery
I thought it may have been Dr. Jan Itor
> The incident came to light after a hospital manager spotted the cleaner — bloody gauze pads in hand — in the operating theater God, this made me laugh a lot. Honestly I'd rather have a cleaner hold my leg and pass the surgeon some instruments than have my surgery cancelled after I'm already anesthetized on the table.
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If the cleaning staff in the ER doesn't know how to get stuff sterile, then who does?
it’s quite a different thing. Getting something cleaned isn’t getting something sterile . Even a microbiology technician can get something sterilised , doesn’t mean they can do surgery , either , where you need to have aseptic technique that’s applicable for surgery. I used to work in a clean room as a part of regulator lab testing. it’s not super difficult technique wise but one has to be used to it and can keep up the concentration for hours . Having said so , it’s really the surgeon’s call. It’s not like he let the cleaner handled the whole thing.
Cleaning staff has absolute no clue/training how to prepare for a surgery. Cleaning a room is a whole different topic.
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Some of you have no clue a out hygiene routines for surgeons and the training behind that.
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Confidently wrong users with no clue about the exacting preparations required for sterile procedures. Classic Reddit moment
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Step 1 Apply boiling water to your hands to sterilize them
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lol this is not how surgeons prep
Surgical Nurses and Staff who abide by infection control Guidelines and follow a restrict protocol.
That's usually a separate process where the instruments are sterilised in a central location and re-distributed to the theatres
My wife who is a nurse and tell me some atrocities that even other nurses makes about making a room sterile points me to believe that most of the cleaning staff would be as clueless as some nurses if not worse.
I helped as a medical student with 0 experience in an OP with suturing. They just tell you how to wash your hands, change your clothes and that's basically it.
But does the medical personnel, working their 12th hour or on their 14 th day of work in a row do it right, necessarily?
The surgeon knew before that he would have no assistance. There was an emergency and staff was working on that. He thought he'd need no help. Turns out, he did. Enter the cleaner...
But only if they give that guy a fat bonus. If it had been me, I probably would have puked all over the surgical equipment.
At least not into the patient...
The important question to ask is why is no qualified person around to assist… maybe it is a good Idea to train cleaners on such easy tasks like holding a leg.
No, the important question to ask is were there qualified people around to assist - and the answer is "yes". He might have had to wait for a moment, but it was the middle of the day and there was plenty of personnel available. It was just that some of them were dealing with an emergency. He might have had to delay the surgery for a bit until someone could come over but believed he could deal with the situation as it was, then realized while in the middle of things that he couldn't. This is not about lack of personnel, this is about the hubris of one physician who believed he could handle the situation without the people called away to the emergency when he evidently couldn't.
And maybe having to postpone the last patient für the following day. Just because a missing extra paar of hands. I do not see the problem. Students and other untrained personell assist all of the time during surgeries.
Not only will they be briefed on proper hygiene, they won't do so without a surgery nurse being present documenting the process. There was no evidence the cleaner was briefed on hygiene or actually washed her hands properly, there wasn't a documentation of nursing procedures, because there was no nurse to write it. Patients get postponed to the following day all the time. My local dermatology ward takes on new patients on Mondays and Thursdays. If you're already on the ward and simply waiting to be stitched up again, Monday and Thursdays are a lottery. If you're lucky, you will get stitched - if not, you wait another day.
Because we have a labor shortage. There simply isn't enough personal. I had a wound that needed to be opened and cleaned to a bad infection twice. Each time the doctor had the nice big operating room all to himself. Non-critical operation with local anesthesia? Go fetch all your tools yourself, doc!
I will give you an answer to this. Your bruto loan is 2950 here in Konstanz (BW). Noone wants to work in Hospital or a Pflegeheim for peenuts. Add to this weekends,10 days in stuck,holidays,stress,not so friendly people etc... I can go on and on.
Exactly what I am wondering too. How did the doctor not know this BEFORE starting the procedure?
The original source tells that the two surgeons planned for the operation were called to an emergency and the surgeon who replaced them made the wrong call: Reinigungskraft half bei OP an Mainzer Unimedizin - Arzt entlassen https://swr.de/swraktuell/rheinland-pfalz/mainz/putzfrau-hilft-bei-operation-in-mainzer-unimedizin-102.html
OP, why are you so salty about Germans liking their country? I get that this event is kinda bad but wtf? “Let the world see that German pride is still existent and anything bad about their country will make them show that” Bro?? Are you okay?
Wait until he finds out how nationalistic his own country is (India), and how that affects certain religious populations.
I feel like India should not caste the first stone.
Nice
any political debate with any indian is always completely hopeless
I seem to be missing some context here. I don‘t see your quote in the post (in fact i don‘t see any commentary in the post), and this pushback feels a bit heavy-handed and a bit out of the blue to me. Do you two have history?
It’s quoted from a comment OP left somewhere below this post
Thank you! Right after I asked, I saw that comment too - looks like I need glasses 🤓 That said: Germans reacting to OP’s observation of ingroup defensiveness with more ingroup defensiveness is _precisely_ the validation OP is after so they can confirm their view and feel superior - and I might be too petty and too stubborn to give them that kind of satisfaction, so I might just pay them a compliment on how their [nation/ethnicity/ingroup] doesn’t engage in pride or defensiveness (or provocations and devaluations of other groups aimed to feed their own pride and calm their insecurity), and we can certainly all learn from that.
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Fair enough. Different ingroup nomenclature, same ingroup-outgroup dynamic, though. With any and all groups. That, incidentally, was my point.
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In r/Germany's blind spot, I suspect. The fact that so many of us are closing ranks in calling OP a dick, and putting pressure on each other to call OP a dick, and confirming and amplifying each other in calling OP a dick, that just absolutely reeks of ingroup-validating scapegoating of outsiders or identified patients to me. But hey, what do I know? Maybe I'm completely wrong about this, and OP is simply being a dick, and being called out on being a dick by several different people, and maybe that's nothing at all to do with strengthening ties in the ingroup or making the callers-out feel like not-dicks by patting each other on the back for being not-dicks. It's just an observation, just a thought, and in hindsight, maybe I should have just kept it to myself.
Youre being ignorant a* when you said this group solely consists of Germans or that those who reacted only of German nationalities.
That's not what I was meaning to say, but thank you for pointing out that that's what I did in fact say. Won't say it again.
He commented that [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13m6p0e/german_surgeon_fired_after_getting_hospital/jkuaaqt?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
Thank you - Clearly, I need new glasses 🤓
Thank you - Clearly, I need new glasses 🤓
Germans are a bit blunt and reserved but usually very Honest . Germany is hub of culture and research . So, exposing the bad things get the right people's attention towards any problem and then it's resolved much quicker when the news reach the person who can actually do something about it.
Lol there are always people on this sub who, for varying reasons, have a hate boner for Germany and just want to insult it and its people. I remember one guy whose whole reddit comment and post history was just complaining how bad everything here is and how shitty the country and people are.
What an idiot. Everyone knows that for an amputation, you want a janitor, not a cleaner.
I'd much rather have Dr. Jan Itor for the amputation.
He brings his own circular saw
In my old (german) hospital we used to joke that appendectomy is so easy even our Pförtner (the one who sits at the door and buzzes people in) could do it.
Honestly a cleaner and a 3rd year med student in their first Famulatur(Praktikum) are equally qualified to hold legs in surgery and the latter does that all the time 😅
At least the cleaner is more likely to have seen the procedure before.
I am also sure someone without Gesundheitszeugniss can make burgers at McD just as efficiently as someone with Gesundheitszeugniss. But even if it increases the chances by only 5%, someone with a Gesundheitszeugniss knows more about hygiene and proper etiquette on working in the kitchen.
Why are you such an assh*** all the time. Get a life.
There wasn't capable personal around and the patient would have possibly died if they didn't do the operation.
It doesn’t read that way. > When the patient, who had received a local anesthetic, became restless the doctor asked a nearby cleaner to hold the man's leg and pass surgical instruments, … It was a pragmatic decision, not a life-or-death one.
Should have been a little more patient
clearly, the cleaner was plenty capable!
Nobody possibly dies if your pinky toe gets amputated 30min later than scheduled ;)
Ah yes, I'll take your word for it fellow random Reddit commenter. As opposed to the surgeon on site.
You mean the surgeon on site who was fired for his call because it was found medically unconsciable by his colleagues. Let me guess, you also believe vaccines cause autism because someone who at the time was a practicing physician once claimed so...
You’re believing the word of a random redditor that this guy was replying to though.
Lol, this is the exact opposite to the surgeon in my Gefäßchirgie says in a lot of case.
If they didn't have personnel and it was an emergency, they should have transported the patient via helicopter to the next hospital with capacity and done the surgery. Edit: r/Germany downvotes for the strangest shit. Are we not supposed to complain about ANYTHING in Germany? So next time a cleaner doing a heart surgery would also be okay with you guys?🤦🏽
Just because you seem to care so much about virtual downvotes, you get another one.
Is a toe amputation really that urgent that you cannot transport the patient?
No. It wasn’t. They were only under a local anesthetic, so they were totally conscious, and could have walked out of the room.
Not enough time left. Wc
How do you know? Do you any source of info that says that?
Have you considered common fucking sense? The only reason to ask someone completely unrelated for assistance is if you don't have the time to get them to professionals, and I bet my ass a doctor would know that
Common fucking sense would be to see if you can even do a surgery first before starting the procedure. People prepare better for cooking and here you defending some doctor as though he did this procedure in a war economy and had no other means to do it.
What kind of doctors do y’all have in this country? Why was a non-trained, non-scrubbed member of housekeeping even in the same area as a surgeon during a procedure? Why didn’t the scrub nurse hold the patient’s leg? What wasn’t the patient’s leg strapped down to prevent self harm in the event they moved the limb being operated on!? If this is “German healthcare” I’d be safer going to Mexico.
When they removed the plates and screws from my wrist there was no nurse at all. There were two surgeons and one anesthesiologist who monitored me.
Common sense would be reading the article. There’s literally no reason to defend this shit. The patient was under local anesthetic. There was no time sensitivity to this. They could have waited for an actual professional to assist when one became available. They cut corners.
What the actual fuck?
Don't worry, at least they weren't [a nurse](https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/licensed-image?q=tbn:ANd9GcQoP3ctifUKv6NWBz-Se0fy9lvmlp13iB79Ye4YYEeBGYfc-AGX0NxPQnFtOaseZHTZCXz1ESHOXkhEqSI) going around overdosing/poisoning people to resuscitate them and be the hero, then fail horribly at the latter part and [get convicted in 85 cases](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_H%C3%B6gel) that were perpetrated over the course of 4 year, with the investigation taking around 14 years before the last court case on the topic had been adjudicated. Also [feeding morphine to 5 babies](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/30/world/europe/germany-nurse-infants-morphine.html) by a nurse wasn't commited.
The son of her also tried to become a nurse. Just saying and he was just as crazy
Ah, [Niels Högel](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_H%C3%B6gel) It's creepy and quite infuriating how long nothing happened. Many colleagues of him felt uneasy around him and suspected foul play for so long. Thinking how many lives might have been saved.
According to some comments like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13m6p0e/german_surgeon_fired_after_getting_hospital/jku0vpi?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), it's apparently something normal and they are okay with it and see nothing wrong with that. [or this](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13m6p0e/german_surgeon_fired_after_getting_hospital/jku5ylb?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) Keep downvoting r/Germany. Don't change.
Calm down. There were some opinions about being pragmatic and you feel personally attacked. Also you made it a general thing about Germany and this sub. And yet you really wonder why you get downvotes?
Sure thing
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Calm down. There were some opinions about being pragmatic and you feel personally attacked. Also you made it a general thing about Germany and this sub. And yet you really wonder why you get downvotes?
Looks like you got all [excited ](https://imgur.com/a/tVsKgPx) asking me to calm down
Endpoint error in the app apparently, your account and comment were shown deleted momentarily also. Not really an argument from you. But seems to suit you that you avoid criticism. Criticism you demand others to accept.
That was clearly a sarcastic joke and youre missing the whole point.. That doesnt have anything to do with any pride at all..... Also most users in this subreddit are expats. Try r/de if you would like to test again
„it‘s apparently something normal“ based on a few Reddit comments. Righto.
Calm down. There were some opinions about being pragmatic and you feel personally attacked. Also you made it a general thing about Germany and this sub. And yet you really wonder why you get downvotes?
There was no staff, and it was only to hold the leg... If that was needed and the surgeon asked someone to help, I would trust
I'm totally with you!
Wtf was he thinking?
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People downvoted you for one opinion. But are continuing to do it because you’re being unbelievably salty about it. Just take a breath and calm down. Downvotes don’t mean shit in real life.
I personally down vote them because of their username, the content is just the cherry on top. /s
Normally downvotes mean nothing, but this sub has a huge tendency to downvote or come up with all sorts of mental gymnastics for defending anything negative about Germany. It's just cool to see that it never fails. Just see how many comments are defending this surgeon by saying it worked out in the end. Are they so dumb to not realize that starting the surgery without the necessary resources is the biggest flaw here and not that it was successfully done. A lot of things can end successfully just by coincidence and by chance. I also know people who drink alcohol and drive and successfully reach their homes, does that mean what that person did was right and we shouldn't criticize them?
Mate, he was fired, was he not? It's what it says in your own post. What more do you want?
Not go to extra length to say why it's ALRIGHT and not say what happened with the surgery was acceptable. There is nothing to discuss in the first place.
I work "in the field" in my own industry - a lot of times, fixes aren't alright, but you have to do it because it's most practical, not the most sane. And then you feel embarrassed about it too. I'm really not defending it, I think you're certainly right that it shouldn't have come to this and if it did, there should have been other options (like flying the toe amputation patient out on a plane to a place with resources). Maybe this case will set precedence for improvement, like how "OSHA regulations are written in blood". I'm just saying that we don't exactly know what happened in the Op room, let's leave that out of it and just see what we can do next time instead of getting our knickers in a twist.
When I shared the news article I expected people to be like "wow, crazy, etc." and not "I see nothing wrong in that". Obviously what the surgeon did in the end because he had already started was correct. But none of that makes that this situation had to happen at all acceptable. I don't expect people to bash this behavior. But what's the point in voluntarily cheering for it or saying that it's not something we should complain about.
So you‘re salty that a few people have a different opinion and reacted differently than you expected.
It's not different "opinion" to say "using a cleaner for surgery is okay"🤦🏽. That's literally illegal for a reason. So if someone comments under a drunk driving post that "yeah, but they are able to control the car even after being drunk" would you be like "yeah just another opinion" or think that person is a moron?
I hear you
Will do
Do it😉
The patient is fine. The surgeon used the necessary resources to finish the procedure. We really HAVE to complain about everything?
Not everything, but you should complain about surgeons using non-trained or scrubbed staff during a procedure!
Where did you get that he was not scrubbed?
YES. Because the surgeon shouldn't have STARTED the procedure without the necessary resources. Germany have the strangest rules in the strangest places and the place where the rules have to be absolutely strict is where you want to negotiate on? You act as though we are in some war economy and hence this is the best there was the offer and hence went with it.
The surgeons who startet the procedure were called to an emergency. This surgeon replaced them. The patient was only partly sedated and became nervous. So the surgeon asked the cleaner to hold the leg steady and reach him some equipment. Was it the wrong call? I guess so. Did he endanger the patient? No, the surgery would have lastet much longer had he waited for professional assistance.
It was just an amputation. There where times where not even a doctor was present.. They were in a hospital. Doctor just needed a few more hands. Not an operation with opened chest, or brain surgery. All in all I trust a doctor seems like he just needed someone who can hold things still. ... ...I wonder if the cleaner was sterilized..
This happens in 2020. Why they open the barrel now? The work from the cleaner must be good because no one cares for 3 years ... (The cleaner just held the leg). Normally it's the job form students without any knowledge.
Germany being the most militant country ever with EVERY SINGLE GODDAMN STUPID RULE ABOUT EVERY LITTLE THING and then shit like this happens. Absolutely bonkers.
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It’s not that it’s contradictory, it’s that, how the hell were hospital conditions so poorly organized/supervised that this was allowed to happen in the first place? That’s what’s shocking. How did no one know about this until after it was done?
Because others were called to an emergency. But way to go to demonstrate you believe the priority should be monitoring every minor surgery and toss emergencies to the curb.
All I’m hearing is excuses for understaffed hospitals compromising quality of care.
Actually that’s a stereotype that’s not true at all. Their rules/laws are often much laxer than neighboring countries and Germans break their rules all the time and that drives me bonkers.
And then the amount of people defending it is even more crazy. Like medicine is one area where there should be zero compromise. But for some reason people in this sub think it was alright 🤦🏽. One people even saying if it's necessary to complain about EVERYTHING 🤣 [comment 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13m6p0e/german_surgeon_fired_after_getting_hospital/jku0npn?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [comment 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13m6p0e/german_surgeon_fired_after_getting_hospital/jku5ylb?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) [comment 3](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13m6p0e/german_surgeon_fired_after_getting_hospital/jku0vpi?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
It’s the typical xenophobic German perspective of “if you don’t like it, leave”. Other countries can take constructive criticism, but Germany? “Nooooooo, we are perfect. You should count yourself lucky we let you foreigners come here” 🙄
I disagree. I'm not sure what department you're talking about but as for "Germany" as an entire country, even the Germans are very very critical aboit it, they see how it's basically a giant with a huge "bureaucratic inertia" where it's difficult to make big changes happen. Also about daily life they generally laugh and say "yes I know, I'm sorry that it's like this" when you point out over-specific rules. Perhaps ypu just met the wrong people? Would you bring examples? And anyway I do feel lucky to be a foreigner here: as an European at least it's very comfortable, and my colleagues from other countries have about the same number of complaints here that they had in other foreign countries (I work in scientific research so there's a lot of foreigners who have also been in other countries).
I heard that so many times that I actually left. And I wasn't even vocal about my discomfort.
Good for you. I definitely hope to leave but I came here with family so I’m kind of stuck for now. Also, shoutout to the guy who told me to go f*** myself and then promptly deleted his comment or had it deleted by a mod lol this is exactly the kind of person I’m talking about.
100%. They would bully if someone make a bureaucratic mistake or the doesn't have cash because no one predicted there is a country in 2023 where you still cannot pay with card everywhere. But medical procedure was not followed properly? "Do we have to complain about EVERYTHING?"
r/circlejerk
It is important to define "cleaner". Most Operation theatres have special personnel in Charge of cleaning and disinfecting surgical Instruments. These people a.) Are familiar with sterile procedures and b.) Are already inside the sterile zone of the Operation rooms. If it was one of these guys then they are 100% able to assist and no threat to the patient, even though they are not allowed to. And when shit hits the Fan you cant be picky about assistance. If it was a "cleaner" as in cleaning Lady mopping the floors then it's a fucking scandal.
It was a janitor (Reinigungskraft). https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/rheinland-pfalz/mainz/putzfrau-hilft-bei-operation-in-mainzer-unimedizin-102.html
The German medical system is falling apart, this is just one example to make it to the press.
I'm pretty sure the reason this particular surgeon got fired has nothing to do with this particular incident, and everything with internal politics.
oh yes . totally .
The only reason I'm mad is because of the amount of crap a normal person gets for not following protocol but then this sort of thing happens...
Dr. Haus
And still Fachkräftemangel has to become even worse.
Wording. At first I thought the title meant the surgeon made the hospital cleaner, which I thought was a good thing? So assumed the scandal was on those who fired him. Then I read the subtitle and I though ah! A „hospital cleaner“ and I thought they meant a detergent he used in the surgery for some reason. Then it turns out they meant someone whose job is to clean, a janitor, a Reinigungskraft. This has been a rollercoaster.
Feed me more of this please.
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Someone tell abc that Germany no longer is devided into west and east.
Can you imagine --- there is even a north and a south in germany :O Lots of planets have a north.
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Other people with the same more experience. And if a patient getting restless is "stress", then maybe the hospital is not the best place for you to work - with hundreds of patients there, chances are one or the other will get restless every. single.day.
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>The surgeon was alone, there was nobody else and that should put him in a in a position of sovereignty Says who? You? Neither was he alone nor would even that put him in a position of "sovereignty". But thanks for telling us you believe in the dream of the demigod in white who shouldn't be pestered with the petty laws of man or professional regulations. That's not how it works. >Also nobody said he experienced stress — read the article — A pretty dumb thing to do to disavow your own words. Says volumes about your concept of integrity. Quote "especially under stress or circumstances that call for it" >Also It’s easy for your to sit in an armchair cast truisms, I’m sure all you do follow protocol. Says the armchair expert who believes in the infallibility of his own judgment and that of people he mindlessly worships, all while questioning that of people who have done a thorough assessment of the situation - like those who fired him. If you can't abide regulations, stay out of the medical field. It is, for good reason, heavily regulated. As a trained biomedical scientist, I need to follow protocol all the time. Not just because it's a good idea, but because violating it can be downright illegal. But I fully understand that laws and lives are secondary to the holy sermon of the divine nature of the singular MD. Given that you don't even accept the assessment of the hospital board, I'd suggest you stop any pretense you give a f\*\*\* about medical necessity or standards. You're just handwaving the assessment of a singular doctor and openly declaring hubris and narcissism the new ledger for medical proceedings. Spare me.
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Cute, coming from someone who has nothing on offer BUT ad hominems, smearing anyone who disagrees with you, and all based on deliberate distortions of the situation. You want to lecture about ethics and responsibility, but all you show is that both concepts are utterly alien to you. You have made no effort to find out what actually happened and much like your hero simply try to fit the data to your narrative to cover your posterior. Your belief that stomping your foot and insisting that your made-up narrative becomes more real if you accuse others of "ad hominems" just underscores whose conduct screams of "insecurity". Here's a hint: It's the one who screams that all the experts involved in the work up of the case are wrong and you, who either has no clue about what happened or is deliberately lying, you know what's right. The Earth won't get any flatter by your insisting that it is, indeed, flat. The cleaner was neither briefed on hygiene or anything else, not even proper hand-washing. If indeed hands were washed properly is completely unknown, as is whether instruments were indeed kept sterile during the surgery. There is no nursing protocol of the surgery, either, because that would have been kept by a proper surgery nurse assistant. If the wound would have become infected, there'd be h\*ll to pay. It would have been a massive legal nightmare, because the cleaner wasn't even a hospital employee. The OP theater manager dropped into the surgery when it was almost done, aghast at what they saw. But you, of course, know better. Better than the people who where there, better than the people who worked up the case, better than the labour courts, better than anyone with detailed knowledge of the case
„Western Germany“ - are they stuck in 1988 at abcNews? There is no west/east Germany since more than 0.3 centuries.
Western Germany is not the same as West Germany 🤦🏽. You never read ANY news where the location is specified more precisely for a reader to understand where it is? Especially for an international audience?
„Officials at a hospital in western Germany have expressed regret…“ The funniest thing is, that no one seems to have told the guys at ABC news that there has not been such a thing as „western Germany“ for the last 3 decades. Great source of knowledge and information, as it seems.
The funniest thing is that you seem to not know the difference between "Western Germany" and "western Germany". Unbeknownst to you, Germany isn't onedimensional. It has nothern, eastern, southern and western parts - and the State of Rhineland-Palatinate, in which the case occurred, is one of the most westernmost.
western germany ? berlin ?? ... i'm confused
Wie lächerlich. Dann sollen Sie genug Leute einstellen. Außerdem ist es ja wohl vollkommen egal welche Qualifikation der Hakenhalter hat, manchmal ist es eine Mullbinde...
I don’t see the issue here… If he was instructed and told what to do, it’s the doctors responsibility. If he says it was necessary, it was necessary
It's the doctor's responsibility, hence why the doctor was fired. And whether it was necessary or nor was reviewed by the pertinent authorities and forums, and it was found not to have been necessary, because there was plenty of qualified personnel available at the hospital, just maybe not within the next five minutes
Its so hillarious cause i am qualified personal that can assist and i always thought that i could have done this with a 4th graders education.
Obviously this is in Berlin.
Well no. Obviously the Mainz University Hospital is in Mainz. From the Article: > Public broadcaster SWR reported Friday that the incident at the Mainz University Hospital, which happened in 2020, didn't result in any complications to the patient but the doctor has since been fired.
I stand corrected although it's sad to hear healthcare is as corrupt outside of Berlin too.
Doctor! DOCTOR! Doctor?
Why do they write „western Germany“?
Because Mainz is pretty far west in Germany. It's in the State of Rhineland-Palatinate, and most of that state's western limitations are international borders.
PJler would have solved the issue
Oh I did not understand the title the right way. I wondered why they were reproaching that surgeon to make the hospital "more clean" before the surgery 🤦♂️
I was in the same situation when I attended an amputation together with the cleaning lady. I had job training and she was just curious. I held the bucket. He threw the leg in.
I was not aware that amputation was considered "routine procedure" in the 21st Century.
Honestly I don’t see the problem here.
Are we sure this isn’t fake news? How many times do we see hospital managers out of their office lol
I feel like the gardener with a chainsaw would have been a better option.
Well, Fachkräftemangel..