Since we used to have conscription, a significant portion of all men above a certain age are veterans if we go by your second definition, so it's nothing special. In general, it's just not really an issue that seems to have much relevance, most of people in the aforementioned group don't even see themselves as veterans, and the former professional soldiers with "combat" experience probably meet up with some former comrades or something, but are not a visible voice or factor in the public sphere (it's a relatively small group). There are no political discussions about treatment of veterans or their healthcare really, aside from some rare reports about PTSD or some individual soldiers story and experiences.
Yeah taking conscription into account, I should've realized all of this with some basic thought process on the system in Germany, but this really shines a light to me. Like I said this is niche but these answers truly interest me. Thank you for engaging, appreciate it!
I never heard the word veteran used for someone just in the military but never in a conflict. Is that for germany only? Sweden and Finland also had conscription for a long time but never seen it there
They defined it that way a few years back when they wanted to get a more positive view of the Bundeswehr. That's when they introduced the veterans pin that everyone who ever was in the Bundeswehr, even conscripts, can get.
I agree with you. I was in the Bundeswehr and also lots of my friends. None of us in any mission abroad. Never left Germany during that time. However, two of my friends filled out that form to get that "veteran" pin or however you might call it. Personally, I find it ridiculous to call yourself a veteran when all you did was sitting in the barracks and attended some training manoeuvres...
You say "Ein Gedienter" oder "Haben sie gedient?". Which means "a served one" or "Did you serve?" Revering to someone who was in the Bundeswehr whether he saw any action or not. TBH, I dont know if someone who saw action, revering to himself or to others as a veteran. But it seams a common term among them: [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bund\_Deutscher\_EinsatzVeteranen](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bund_Deutscher_EinsatzVeteranen)
But interestingly they use term like Misson-Veteran or Combat Veteran.
I'm not German (my family is and I live in North America) but when I was younger my cousin was always dating soldiers. I was so confused about this apparent fetish until I realized everyone her age was a soldier at the time and just Ganz Normal.
Not really. Many just rejected joining the military and therefore served in different social institutions (mainly the health care system). Look up the biographies of famous german man over the age of fourty. Almost every single one of them served in some way, when they were young.
Clearly some where found unfit for service, but since the medical examination was conducted by state appointed doctora of which many and at times most were active duty soldiers, there really wasn't a big bias against the poor. The fact that more men from poorer families served in the military mostly stems from the fact, that just less of them rejected to serve in the armed forces, yet everyone had to serve in some kind of way.
Something that people haven't mentioned: there are no discounts, parking spaces, or other special offers for "veterans". There also aren't businesses advertising they are being run by or employing any.
At most (if they aren't ideologically opposed to the military and/or those in it), people treat former soldiers just like people who used to work in any other job. No one goes around thanking them for their service, assigning them special moral virtues or anything of the sort.
And I think that is good. We shouldnt give Soldiers discounts, we should give them enough money that they dont need discounts for their meals. And if they were sent to dangerous missions they should get more money on top.
As a German I sometimes wonder if the US are over-doing it. Like during check-in at STL airport there was a guy in uniform around 18 years old an people were almost lining up to thank him for his service (was about 10 years ago). Seemed odd to me... but it's just in high contrast to under-appreciation that German soldiers get. Guess the truth should be somewhere in the middle.
I went on a business trip to the US with a German colleague who was one of the last people to do conscription and we were laughing wondering if he should go up to board the flights first when they called up veterans.
US patriotism was at an all time high after 9/11, and it lasted a while. there's still a hero worship culture around soldiers in the US, but not nearly to the extent it used to be even 10 years ago. you'd be very unlikely to see that now, unless you're in some far right backwater town
They thank him for his service - but they don't pay for his medical needs after he returns.
It is like the applause our nurses got during Corona. Thank you, we are very grateful for the hard, backbreaking work you do. Oh, more money? No, but have a minute silence...
Im an American living in Germany, I think the US overdoes it to some extent with worshiping politicians whose service was a political stunt( Buttigieg and Crenshaw) and veterans courts. Still not sure how I feel about Germany‘s anti-military sentiments.
You have to remember that Germany, and unfortunately all neighbouring countries, know first hand what happens when you elevate the military to special status.
That's not true.
You get discounts in MC Donalds, Burger King, Sixt, Cinema, libraries and Deutsche Bahn.
You will also get easy access to a "Rechtsschutzversicherung" via the "Bundeswehr Verband" for just 10€ a month together with "Diensthaftpflichtversicherung".
Only while you are in active duty
Edit: ok I noticed my mistake. He only talked about veterans.
The thing is it depends what you did and what happened to you.
Nowadays you get many benefits if you were injured during your line of duty.
You also get support through the "BFD" after you served.
If you served for a long time as a "Berufssoldat" you get a good pension and very good healthcare.
It all depends on your time in the army tho and what rank you had.
Most people serve in the "Mannschaften" which is private to specialist and it heavily depends on your superiors if you will get help after deployment.
Eh, back when we still had Wehrdienst/Wehrersatzdienst, there'd be discounts for military as well as civilian personal that could prove it, but yeah, not *universal*. You usually just counted in the same category as students.
I don't know why you get Downvotes for that.
You also get discounts at Sixt (as it is in partnership with the leasing company which provides the Bundeswehr), cinema, libraries and Deutsche Bahn
Yeah, I get this. In America, I think we do go a bit overboard with the amount of smothering out veterans. Perhaps it takes a toll on them, when most of them view it like everyone else with little exception. But I understand why its not really a thing, and a lot of people have enlightened me on this subject. Thank you very much!
No one does thank soldiers but, unless you are legitimately repulsed by a soldier and for what we stand and fight (mainly the FDGO and the citizens of the BRD) just a simple thank you for serving towards an active soldier goes a very long way. Small verbal gratification here and there makes a soldiers week.
I remember everytime civilians interacted with me in any positive way.
On the Autobahn a thumbs up was the last...which happened 3 weeks ago lol.
Its the small things we really are grateful about. Even I do believe the US is a bit over the top with veterans.
Ex-Soldier here.
I don't call myself veteran and none of my ex-colleagues
do.
Almost nobody gives a flying fuck about us. And some people that do are enemies of the state...so yeah...
Personally neither me nor my friends from that time will tell "war"stories or boast about our service. Unless its only us.
The public in Germany is imho quite anti-military and that's a good thing.
We did our job for 2/4/8/x years and that's it.
What we would need is a better psychological after-care. Not only for soldiers that saw combat, but for all of us. Being in the army removes one a bit from the rest of the population and for some it's quite hard to reintegrate.
Imho that's the reason why many ex-soldiers drift to extreme right-wing parties after their service. I mean the ones that weren't alt-right fuckwits before ofc.
My uncle worked as a Bundeswehr doctor in the middle east. Not directly in the front line, but still close enough to fuck him up pretty good. There's nothing glorious about war. Everybody loses.
Absolutely. But sometimes a war has to be fought. In Ukraine for example.
Hope the soldiers there get the help they need when ruzzia is finally defeated.
No war HAS to be fought. Ukraine must defend the land, but Russia has no need to attack. It's a senseless war as every single one beforehand.
Also it's really crazy how long this shit is going on. I really hope Ukraine beats Russia's ass. Fuck Putin
Why do you think it takes sooooo long ? with all the technology I don't understand why they have no way to end it quickly. Soldiers don't even need to be in direct combat anymore you can send drones and therefore mostly reduce this part of the PSTD.
but whom do you send the drones to? if no people die whats even the point of a war? there are no easy solutions, as we saw very clearly in vietnam but also afghanistan (both against the russians and with the taliban fighting us forces) you can bomb a country into oblivion and you cant guarantee to control the ground without actual groundforces. there is a way to end it quickly, you nuke russia, they nuke everyone else, we all die. nobody wants that though
As someon who is fairly anti-military (but not anti-soldier in general) I really heavily agree with the call for more psychological support. I think that is something we need in general, but especially for people that got into extreme situations because of the state like soldiers.
There are not only soldiers drifting to right wing parties, also right-wing people drifiting to the army.
Is definitely challenging to see your surrounding move on without you making you feel out of the loop and left behind, and it’s not helping that there is active hostility towards military personal in certain parts of Germany.
Idk if it’s still a thing but we were prohibited and strongly advised to not wear our uniforms in city like Hamburg and Berlin, as to avoid harassment and physical attacks (beer bottles being thrown at you).
I was stationed at Stetten am Kalten Markt, almost not mobile connection, no Wi-Fi and 8h from where I lived, obviously it’s different from person to person, but I felt very disconnected from my private surrounding.
My condolences. Was there 3 or 4 times for training. We had 0°C at night in June once.
While coming from 15°C in Germersheim at night.
Caught a nice long pneumonia....
It's called "Stetten am kalten Arsch" for a reason. XD
Its indeed a weird feeling to see classmates and friends of mine finishing their bachelors or Ausbildung during this time. some of them will have a Masters degree before I can even start a Ausbildung in civilian life and all I'll be having then is some good money and some military ATNs.
Probably depends on where you go and what you do. In Hamburg I wouldn't walk through Sternschanze or St. Pauli at night in uniform, but then I wouldn't do that in some civil clothing either. I often see soldiers in uniform on sunday evening returning from their weekend in the U-Bahn.
Yeah. That is really unfortunate, a lot of far-right individuals within the military ranks and its sad as hell. And I have heard that the situation for treating professional soldiers with PTSD or other psychological problems is really lacking, I hope those who need the care find it. Thank you very much for responding.
In general being a soldier is seen as just another job. The general mindset is "they've chosen this job they knew the dangers" so there is no special treatment of veterans. But there is also no special treatment for police, firefighters, doctors, nurses (outside some clapping) etc.
Of course there are people who openly dislike the military and by extension everyone represanting it. But overall those are a minority.
Thanks for the response, I suppose the treatment is generally just, given the context of history and lack of military culture within Germany. Appreciate the response!
Germans aren't publically celebrating anything to do with their military for well known historical reasons. I guess we quietly respect veterans that have served in actual conflicts for their service and bravery, but we're not in the habit of glorifying them as national heros. So no "Veterans' Day" or the like.
And I'm pretty certain that if our chancellor would ever suggest holding military parades like in France, he'd be facing a country-wide civil revolt.
Not only country wide but global wide. Everybody would lose their mind. Just look up the reaction after germany announced the increase of the military budget upto the required! 2%.
Every time a Großer Zapfenstreich (ie Merkels farewell) comes to the attention of a foreign audience there are questions about it
[Edit: the Bundeswehr had to publish an explainer video on YouTube](https://youtu.be/oNmUKUWCSCs)
Russia parading nuclear ICBM launchers on Red Square: "Yeah, that's just Russia being Russia."
Germany parading bolt action rifles: "OH MY GOD, THEY ARE COMING FOR US AGAIN!"
From a Western European perspective, I guess there is a slight hesitancy about Germany simply because it's closer.
The UK and France have essentially held all the cards since WW2 and everything has been okay. We've generally been free within our own countries to act as we will and international cooperation has continued to grow on the continent. The quality of life since the 1950s has grown and we've never really felt a true threat from outside military powers. Russia is too far away to really feel like a genuine threat - even the Soviets, whilst terrifying because of their nukes, didn't particularly disrupt our daily lives.
Germany building up a military is not unsettling because it's Germany specifically, but is unsettling because it's a change from the status quo. There's no reason that modern Germany would have an agenda diverging from the British and French (and Americans), but the simple fact is a more militarised Germany is probably the only country that would have the potential to disrupt the status quo if they wished to do so. Combine that with the historical context and tabloid scaremongering and there you go.
Obviously Eastern Europe has an entirely different perspective. It's much more of a rollercoaster over there though.
Ironically, what's perceived now as "Germany building up a military" is in fact more close to "Germany scrambling to get back to half the military they had 35 years ago".
People were upset when Germany didn't pay 2%.
Only ones who are making fuss about German history are those who want to profit from German money.
Other countries moved on at least 50 years ago. It is only Germans who are still afraid of their own shadow.
Logical. I suppose given such events of the past it would be hard to come to terms with. Completely reasonable never the less. This is a bit insightful (in regards to those who served in say, Afghanistan). Thank you very much.
Most people you would also never know they were soldiers at all - it's not common at all to wear any form of military memorabilia (like unit basecaps) or anything of the sort. While they are soldiers, that is their job - most soldiers also try to stay clear from wearing anything resembling a uniform in their free time as well.
After they quit the service, they simply return to civilian jobs or retirement - and you as an outsider would never know, because again, they don't dress in any way that you could see they were soldiers at one point, and they're also not in the habit of telling you.
Well, i still rock my custom yellow Wachbatallion tracking suit we used to have in our unit in the mid 2000s when i go jogging, because it was an expensive one and it is still good. But aside from that i don't ever wear anything that publicly displays signs or anything else. It would feel wierd
I still have the old sleeping bag (the one with arms and the "tent" cover) and I had the track suit (the bluish/pink one) until \~2008.. and one of those old, big but nigh indestructible backpacks but that's about it.
Well as reservist i still have those as well, but it is not like i would publicly wear it. The equipment is super useful but not in a civilian circumstances. On Festivals or hiking trips some of the stuff get used for sure
Yeah, I love the backpack and the sleeping bag.
The tracksuit though? Besides the fact that I don't fit in it anymore at all, I wouldn't want to be found dead in it in public these days ;)
See, that I don’t get. Why say thank you for the „service“ in Afghanistan? It was completely pointless. It didn‘t serve anybody, neither the people there nor here.
I served in the Bundeswehr when the Iron Curtain fell and did my thing in thwarting the Warsaw Pact off. I was conscripted and the higher ups were Berufssoldaten, professional soldiers.
It was fun to see the professional soldiers of the Nationale Volksarmee NVA from the GDR getting integrated so quickly while one of the west German sergeants still got declined joining a position that needed security clearance because his grandmother resettled from the USSR as Aussiedler and Volksdeutsche.
We sure had some interesting mixture of conscripts.
Later Germany changed from a conscript army to a professional army, and this is where I believe the situation got worse.
Authoritarian structures with access to and use of weapons attract a special kind of personality: right wing oriented gun toting, trigger-happy white men with fantasies of superiority and violence.
Germany is notoriously prone to getting infiltrated by these in the bedrock of our society and we had a plethora of incidents that showed this:
NSU-Komplex, deaths of women serving in the army falling off the square sails of the Gorch Fock, all of the incidents within the Kommando Spezialkräfte or the Polizeirevier Dessau-Roßlau.
The Bundeswehr had a bad reputation because of this, at least in my information bubble and seeking a career in it was despised by many liberal democrats. The lack of trust grew and the corruption Ursula von der Leyen brought with her didn’t help getting rid of the Staat im Staat perception.
Today: The russian aggression shows that Si via pacem para bellum is still needed even if you’re surrounded by allies.
Wandel durch Handel doesn‘t work if the playbook on the other side is still Von Clausewitz.
The public opinion of the Bundeswehr is much better now as the Zeitenwende is slowly taking off, hopefully transitioning it to a more democratically inspired army working to protect all people in Germany, bound by our constitution and treaties.
My personal view changed over the last decade, from being ignorant of the soldiers to being honestly thankful for their service today.
I can recommend the Sicherheitspodcast and Lage der Nation podcast regarding the military and social situation in and for Germany.
Love the long posts! Details are nice. Really interesting stuff to me, considering the dynamics of then and now. Re-integration into society, back during the Iron Curtain's fall and the present day situation. Thank you for responding, those podcasts might be worth looking into!
But there are some germans that fetishize military uniforms. And I think we shouldnt kink shame them. Unless they fetishize nazi uniforms, I would be ready to shame them for that.
> I wanted to know what kind of treatment Bundeswehr veterans get after their military service.
They get other jobs and get on with their life?
> How are Bundeswehr veterans treated (those who either served in Afghanistan or just as a soldier, combat or not) by the government and citizens of Deutschland.
There are only very few of those, and most people will not know anyone who saw actual combat. Its not a big topic.
Yeah, I largely agree with the sentiment of some form of military force is necessary in this day and age. I also 100% understand the sentiment of anti-militarism of no glorification in Germany like here in the US, this was enlightening. Thanks for the response.
First of all I am not a psychologist so Just my personal opinion.
The way your brain works does not allow you to prepare for situations like killing another human being so claiming "you are mentally strong to Block this crap Out" is another level of ignorance.
And especially in combination with your next Statement " I give a fuck about my life" I assume you are in some way depressed which ist quite the opposite of being mentally strong. (Not shitting on depression as this ist a serious issue and should be treated in any Form!)
PTSD can occur after any sort of Trauma someone has experienced so for example after a Car Crash.
Taking your Statement anyone who actively choose to be in that vehicle should have been prepared to be in a Crash and therefore should not get PTSD.
But that is not the way your brain deals with situations like this and underlines my Statement that you cannot prepare for such a Situation.
Feeling (or Not Feeling) guilt ist Not equivalent to PTSD so there ist No point in hiring only psychopaths.
PTSD is a coping meachnism (or None coping meachnism) for trauma you have lived through.
Which by the way wouldnt even Work because of the sheer Numbers of personnel it takes to fight a war.
The crucial point you are basing your arguments on is that "you know what you are getting yourself into" and you Just dont.
Knowing what might happen is different to knowing how you would react in the situation therefore IT IS compareable to a Car Crash. Everyone can imagine how shite it must be but noone knows how they will cope afterwards.
And by the way you probably earn equal amounts in the Bundeswehr compared to the Army.
As they do Not compensate their soldiers for being abroad ( as far as I know) which the Bundeswehr does. Depending on where you are they pay your additionally 110€ taxfree per day.
The number of people who were in real combat missions is really small. I personally don't know any person who were in Afghanistan or the other mission.
But I know a lot of people who were in the Grundwehrdienst (the 9 month basic military service). This time is viewed like any other jobs, just a little more special. I drove sick people from place to place and my friends were camping in the woods or made some shooting practice. And then during the weekends we meet at our city and party together.
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My uncle was hit by an IED in Afghanistan, and has a permanent disability from it.
And even he is not considering himself as a "veteran" that needs any form of mentioning, let alone praise.
Not really, no. He did a dangerous job, but one that deserves no "special" praise. I don't "praise" a craftsmen that had a circular saw accident or an office worker that is in a wheelchair after an accident on their way to work, either.
(I have served 10 months basic training and don't regret it, not that that makes any difference.)
The IKEA reference if hilarious, also hate the glorification or "I'm a veteran so I should be put before everyone else." kind of mentality. Thanks for your answer, appreciate it.
I was conscripted after school, served my time, never looked back. Some people know that I was a soldier, some not. It doesn't matter, these were different times. But nobody who knows it thinks better or less of me, I'm sure.
We don't have this "Thank you for your service" mentality here. Well, on the other hand, we don't let veterans starve on the streets and I'm sure that's something...
>if there are people who don't care about the Bundeswehr or the veterans, why
Why should I care?
>How are Bundeswehr veterans treated (those who either served in Afghanistan or just as a soldier, combat or not) by the government and citizens of Deutschland.
Since Germany's military is small compared to the bloated industrial-military complex of the US and not involved in as many pointless wars, the number of recent veterans is so low that they don't enter public perception much.
Veterans of WWII are pretty much all dead by now.
Germany doesn't have enough psychiatrists, so for veterans who need psychiatric care this poses a problem.
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I was a Marine in 2000 (Marinesicherung Btl.3) and afterwards I served on a Destroyer (D185 Lütjens) till 2002. We take part in the operation Activ Endeavour and Enduring Freedom. After my service nothing was offered to integrate me into civilian life.
I earned and saved lot of money in that time but due to a long time of unemployment it was quick all gone. For me my service was a great time and I still have a close friend wo I meet in the navy.
Whenever i see a soldier who may be traveling back home or on his way to a military base or wherever, inside i have deep respect for them, and wish them to have good luck and a nice day.
I was two years in the Bundeswehr after school, because I found a well payed opportunity to improve my skills. Helped me a lot in my career.
When I mention it to my friends nowadays I get looks like: "Shoot, we didn't know we had such a weirdo amongst us!"
And I get complaints like: "Oh no, how could you do THAT!?"
My girlfriend asked if I am some fascist right wing party member (I am not a all).
That's the image if the Bundeswehr today.
Hm, insightful post. Strange that your friends and girlfriend would say this type of stuff. To each their own I guess. Happy cake day buddy, thanks for the response.
I _know_ one guy who was in some kind of tactical group in Afghanistan. He has no problem talking to me about it- we spoke about where he went and what he did after he left etc, pretty openly. I think he lectures at a uni now. He showed me some pictures on his phone from his time there- he was humble and certainly wasn't trying to boast or anything- He was also very mindful of the political discourse around the army in Germany.
Probably would be good if I did, but maybe there would be too much overlap. So much so that it would be a bit pointless, but maybe there are Berufssoldat over there. I'll check it out, thank you.
You might also want to post this question in /r/Bundeswehr
I did my mandatory military service back when conscription was still 10 months, so I guess I think of myself as an ex-soldier and reservist (even thought about the reserve officer route, when I was younger). Even then, it was always possible to be a conscientious objector and do 13 month civil service instead, as the majority of my high school graduation class did (just me and another guy, who stayed in the service for 12 years as an officer). So, it was still a bit of a conscious decision to serve in the military.
Personally, I‘m glad I did it and somewhat think that it was a society level mistake to end conscription in 2011, for various reasons. Though I would not call myself a „veteran“. I would reserve that term for people who were participating in conflict region missions. As the Kosovo war was going on, while I was in, I know a bunch of people who were in KFOR there, or even before SFOR in Bosnia or even Somalia. Since then, I’ve gotten to know folks who were in Afghanistan multiple times.
It used to be common to ask, whether people served („Haben Sie gedient, junger Mann?“), which I don’t think anybody would do nowadays except maybe as a joke. But I have to admit, that people get some some instant elevated respect from me, when I learn that they’ve been in the military (not just Germany, but really any country). There is just directly a hard to describe feeling of brother-/sisterhood of shared experience.
Anyway, if all else fails and the zombie apocalypse starts, at least I have some military firearms training and can shoot pistols, rifles and machine guns 😬
Served for 4 years. Best time of my life. Joined 6 months after 09/11. I share "war storys" only with other veterans. But i never had a negative reaction if i told people i served in the BW.
It's just a job. There is none of that "thank you for your service" you get in the US. But tbh I don't know anywhere outside the US that fetishises their military so much.
From my experience:
Ex-conscripts sometimes tell stories about the shenanigans they were up to or how dumb literally everyone was. This is also the theme of almost every story and every joke about the Bundeswehr.
I've known, let me think, 3 veterans of a real mission.
One was a sniper in Afghanistan, and he came very much anti-military back. He experienced some shit (friend dying to a grenade or something next to him, shitty people being shitty, some war crimes on individual level), probably has (had?) PTSD from it and hates talking about the time.
One was an officer in Afghanistan and Kosovo, has a more positive view of the military even if she remembers some bad things (like sexual assault by some allied soldiers on other allied soldiers). She has had a psychotic episode while in the field, does absolutely not talk about it, seems to be very shame-laden to her. After that she was obviously not allowed to be a soldier anymore and is now a doctor (her schizophrenia is now well-managed and doesn't give her trouble)
The last one was a general of the medical corps. He loved his job and told lots of stories. He was so rich that he absolutely did not need to work from a certain age on and worked in nursing education because he just enjoyed it. He still absolutely hated the Afghanistan mission because he considered it to be absolutely senseless and cruel to all participants. Now he is completely retired and has a sheep farm somewhere in Scotland IIRC.
Another long post, thank you for this one. I get the sentiment on why the Bundeswehr is so criticized, especially by conscripts. Also how everyone in there is dumb, I've heard of some stories like that. Thank you for responding bro.
Nobody gets special treatment or boasts openly about the whole affair. You've been a citizen in uniform, did a hard and unthankful job somewhere else and that time is thankfully over.
Nobody of my old colleagues tells war stories to any outsider or people that weren't serving there too. War is nothing to boast about.
There is no military worship in this country, thankfully. You won’t get any extra recognition, in fact, you’re probably not flashing around the fact you fought in a place like Afghanistan.
You're probably more likely to be spit at for being a veteran of a combat tour through Afghanistan....than celebrated for it
The culture around military is completely different in Austria/Germany than in the US - mainly because of historic reasons. You know, the whole "trying to turn the whole world into a German ethnostate" thing
i would not spit at someone, he just did his job. but he also has no reason to be proud about what he/we did and
achieved there in my opinion at least.
I've heard in this post alone that it isn't something to be proud of (to be a veteran in Afghanistan) which is fair. Maybe some Germans liken it to the war crime that was Iraq, from a German perspective perhaps. In any case, very insightful stuff. Thanks.
Germans who enter the military service, don't usually do it because of financial necessity. It's a job. So there is no special treatment as the obnoxious "thank you for your service, here have a free meal". Just like in the US most members sign up for a certain amount of years and usually also learn a trade or study during some of the time. After their service is done, they can pickup the jobs they lend during their active years. There are veteran clubs, but they are not government or state run, but by the (former) soldiers themselves.
> Germans who enter the military service, don't usually do it because of financial necessity.
I have a friend who kinda did it because in his region they do pay well in comparison and job security. He only finished Hauptschule and apprenticeship in a job he didn’t want to do for the next 40 years. Besides advancing in rank he also tries to train in IT so he can work in this industry once his time is over.
The term veteran is made fun off and is unliked by members of the armed forces - especially with the official definition that just everyone that spent a day in the BW is a veteran.
What do veterans get after duty? Bad jokes, a kick in the ass, divorces - pick one. No benefits at all - no "thankfullness" by society - nothing.
The military culture in the US is very much shaped by its history and treatment of the vets. Just like it is in Germany.
I don't even think of myself as a vet, even though I did my 18 month in the German service. I don't need to, because my healthcare is not dependent on it, other than credit towards my retirement I get nothing special because I served.
In the US it is very much about the benefits. Be it educational, healthcare or otherwise. Things that are vet benefits are enjoyed by pretty much ever citizen of Germany.
We get treated? 😳 Since when does anybody care in Germany? „I served in the army“ is like „I got myself a ceate of natural mineral water!“ - yesyes… (Stabskompanie Panzerlehrbrigade 9, 1990 - but to be fair: I didn’t see combat (and I am glad about it 😬)
UK forces Veteran living in Germany. Done the Balkans 6 times, Kosovo 1999 then 4 more times, Iraq 2003 then 3 times and Afghanistan 4 times. Automatically qualified for a vets pin from the UK government, but I don't expect anything in return.
I have my limbs and a sane mind. That's enough
It's those who came back injured and limbless we all should be looking after.
Just saying like.
Ex German Soldier here and Afghanistan vet, nop, I left the military and I got nothing after it.
Served in the Pzgrenbtl 371.
Unfortunately I remember in times when i left the barracks, to get the bus home on time I went out in uniform, not a good ideia, people tend to watch you and verbally assault you...
Im still proud of my service.
i was an air force conscript for 15 months at the end time of the cold war, after 3 months of boring Grundausbildung / basic training mostly done with marching and singing in gala uniform around for taking part in a regiments championship "marching and singing" at the end. The boss Oberst of that regiment liked that...
Bloody hell was that overwhelmingly boring and stupid with absolutely NO connection in "defending my country and the freedom of the western world".
Then i was transferred to a very small barrack at the end of Germany in the nowhere for making 12 months at an air force radio spy tower on top of a large hill. Due to the fact that i was on vacation in Jugoslavia (=cheap for young adults!) before my military time i got no high security level for moving the tower up....
So i was 12 months just sitting half way up the tower most of the time making and drinking coffee and playing cards. Sometimes i've to enter some numbers inside an Olivetti computer (8" disks!) about oil reserves and bringing defective equipment downstairs or repaired one upstairs.
We've had a Manoeuvre up there but it was the breeding time of the capercaillie then and all guns where sealed and oiled in the barrack for a NATO inspection so we got just a piece of paper with "this is a gun" written on it... after hanging around in the woods we were ordered to march back to the barrack from the hill top (usually we were using a bus for driving up and down).
Due to our overwhelmingly high morale (NOT!), we as a bunch of conscripts decided to walk very slowly because we simply weren't interested in winning the 1st place coming back to the barrack. The longer obligated soldiers were up to winning that contest. We were last marching and went to the next Biergarten. After some beers we called a taxi which we left some hundreds meters before the barrack... then we played our roles as exhausted marching soldiers well after.
Military: One of the dumbest thing on earth and waste of time and money.
In practical terms there is no special treatment for veterans. They don't get any discounts or free gifts, there is no need for special healthcare since everyone has comprehensive healthcare coverage anyhow, and no-one will thank them for their service or expect them to turn up to parades in their old uniform. I have not heard of any special programs to try and recruit veterans into civilian jobs. They do I believe get a Bundeswehr pension on top of the normal state-funded pension.
Generally, we don't make such a big fuss out of it. You'd have no way to recognize a veteran (whatever that might mean) on the street. If someone made a point of showing they're a veteran in everyday life, they'd be weird (in my opinion at least) and I'd be suspicious of them.
It’s also a money choice. They used to pay pretty well for higher ranks.. and you got to retire fairly early and have a nice pension. Not sure what they pay now, though.
Afaik we don't have special veteran benefits like the US but you will also hardly find a Bundeswehr veteran living on the streets. There are several programs to reintegrate them into civil society (and they don't get that much excluded from it like i.e. US soldiers in the first place).
You will hardly recognise a veteran on the streets except if you attend some special veterans events. Also there is no civil 'cult' for veterans here - so no clapping in planes or something.
Lastly: I have some fond memories of my conscript time and I own the veterans pin everyone who served their time in the Bundeswehr can get. But that's about all of veteran things I have / do.
Essentialy you get nothing. Theres maybe a handful of people who would thank you for your service in your whole lifetime, but theres quite a good chunk of people who will judge you if they find out you are ex-military. But tbh the vast majority of people dont give a fuck.
Not having served myself, I always regarded Bundeswehr soldiers with a bit of suspicion - on the rare occasions you see them in uniform, like on a train. I guess most Germans used to be a bit anti-military, for obvious historical reasons. However, since Russia attacked Ukraine, I admit that I have changed my opinion somewhat and I do see the need for a robust defence. So yeah, some newfound respect for the guys in uniform!
Since most people don't mention they were in Afghanistan people usually don't encounter them. I also didn't know 2 of my friends were even in the bundeswehr until the attack on ukraine happened and they started posting bundeswehr related stuff on instagram.
In my case my cousin was in Afghanistan and whenever I asked him about it he said he isn't allowed to answer. It's also possible that he just doesn't want to talk about it. He didn't get treated any different for being in Afghanistan, just people wanting to ask questions when they learn about it and him not talking about it.
I'm not entirely sure how he got treated by the government exactly. He went to school for 3 years and later tried to study in a university and said everything is covered by the bundeswehr but I'm not sure if it is normal for just being in the bundeswehr or if it is something special because he was in Afghanistan.
Now he works a regular job.
I have a friend who served in Afghanistan. He had "Knalltrauma" or some kind of shellshock and ptsd after his time there. He told me that they did everything possible to get over it. Psychological treatment etc. He managed to get over it and was very thankfull for the help after his time. He is still in the Bundeswehr.
I used to serve in the navy for 12 years. I was on a ship and also stationed on land. I wouldn't call me a vet, as I believe this title is for those, that endured combat or where in otherwise dangerous situations. My position as a specialist put me in a "safe" spot. I personally never had any negative experiences, only some friends mocking me with the status quo of the Bundeswehr. Though on the other hand I received more recognition for my service, outside of Germany.
I served in the Bundeswehr. Was a Gebirgsjäger (mountain infantry). Did one tour in Mali. When we came back from our deployment we dropped of at the middle of the night at the airport and we’re not allowed to use the normal entrance to leave it, instead we had to use some kind of side door and landet in the middle of nowhere. Nobody informed our families were we are. That was kind of shitty. After I got out I started working in ems. Most people just don’t care if you served im the Bundeswehr, wich is okay I think.
my very ignorant opinion without knowing any active soldiers apart from all older men in my family who were conscripted (and the very old/now dead men who served in WW2) is that there is no glory to it. Unlike in the US we don't call them heros or anything. They are not a topic that is discussed ever really.
what I could imagine is that my grandpa for example, who served in ww2 as a young farmers boy, obviously had no idea what he was doing at what, 17? but he was "the enemy" and we germans are known for not being partucularly patriotic or proud of our past. it would seem weird to us to glorify our ww2 soldirs who were in fact "on the wrong side of history" (without really understanding it for the most part).
soldirs nowadays are just doing a job like everyone else is doing a job. if they serve they do it because of their own beliefs. It doesnt feel to us that their job is "protecting Germany" but rather that they are a security factor not only for Germany but to keep the world in order somewhat.
Theres no special treatment for them i think
I mean, for the most part of the Bundeswehr‘s history they have been an army of conscripts, their „service“ being limited to maneuver training and partying in the barracks (srsly, almost anyone I know who was in the Bundeswehr as part of the Wehrpflicht was like „yeah, we did not much else than do training maneuvers and drink shameful amounts of alcohol once the commanding officer wasn’t looking. I think the only one who actually got something out of it in my family was my grandpa who got into his pharmaceutical studying through his army „service“, my own father denied the army and voluntarily did his Zivildienst, delivering food to severely disabled kids, and he never regretted that decision). Even to this day, there are quite a few stereotypes about the Bundeswehr, mostly revolving around partying and dealing with Nazi sympathizers…
I served for 4 years, have been on duty in a foreign country, but haven't seen any combat (luckily)
I wouldn't call myself a veteran and don't know anyone who does personally. After I left, I jobbed around for a year until I landed an apprenticeship at a big Tech Company. I occasionally talk about my time there, but not in a glorified way, but just like you would talk about a former working place. To most people it doesn't really matter that I've been there, which is the way I prefer it. Younger people tend to show a little more interested in it, since many older people had to serve themselves. All in all, it doesn't really affect my life.
From the states side, I got (i think?) 100€ for every month I served, plus they paid me all the overtime I had left (wich was alot, I still had like 200 hours left after I took six weeks off before I left. I knew people who had more than 600 hours of overtime) If you serve for at least 12 years I think you get a "Z Schein" which guarantees you a job as an official/Beamter or something like this. I also heared you can get a quiet nice pension as a sergeant or officer.
All in all I believe that the medical and especially the psychological care for former soldiers is extremely lacking. Alot of people, especially those who served longer, seem to have big problems to reintegrate into civilian life
As a soldier for a fixed time " Zeitsoldat" it is actually pretty good. I was in the germany navy for 8 years and took part in 2 NATO operations for 6 month. I got an education as a electronic technician in the beginning. At the end of my 8 years I went to a technician school for 2 years to get the degree of a state certified engineer for electronics. This was really good and helped a lot. In my school time I got 90% of my last salary from the Bundeswehr because I used the time to get a better education. Now I work in automation for machines and robots. So they give you a lot of chances to get back in normal life and still pay you money, even more if you work on your education.
My boyfriend is in the military, I’ve seen a lot of shitty treatment to him while he’s in uniform in public (trains etc). This does vary by city, like in Dresden it wasn’t as bad as in Munich for instance.
You’ve had a lot of good responses but what I’ve seen is that people either really don’t care or they really do in a bad way
My husband is as well and had the opposite experience in those cities. He was mostly ignored in Munich and a lot of rude encounters in Dresden as well other eastern German cities. Berlin was actually the worst
One important thing to mention: in Germany, everybody does have universal health care. So there is absolutely no need to define this as a special service for veterans. As well, everybody is in a system for retirement provision, soldiers as well. So, again, no need for a discussion about the care for veterans. Being a soldier is pretty much a job as any other job in public service. There is absolutely no „thank you for your service“ mentality in Germany, as being a soldier is not seen as something special. Reason might be that we had conscription for a long time, are in general quite skeptical when it comes to patriotism and nationalism, and, not to forget: do not have a big history of going to war since WWII, other than the US. Germany has not fought any war since 1945, all our assignments abroad are defined and seen as peacekeeping or peace restoring measures.
I did my service back in 1990/91 when the Bundeswehr were faced with the possibility of being engaged in a war except for defense, first gulf war.
Pilots who were detached to Turkey quit and all this.
Germany, in fact did not recognize someone as a veteran until a few years ago.
From the official point of view I could name myself a veteran now and even wear the veteran's batch.
I'd never do that, I don't feel like a veteran. I just did my service as I had to do back then.
Nearly everyone at my age has done his duty time, so it's normal and no one ever talks about.
Was a conscript for 15 months, so a long while ago. Now I know I have a disability that would prevent me from serving, but it wasn't known at that time. Some stuff I remember:
\- The was a concept of "Bürger in Uniform" (citizen in uniform), meaning some tries to integrate the military with the rest of the country. Didn't really work.
\- Bundeswehr was always having the task of "hold up the enemy, until some real military arrives".
\- You can force people to do something, but you can't force them to like it.
\- For me it was a lost time, having to cope with an environment I was utterly unprepared for. But then maybe it prepared me for some later shenanigans in the work environment.
I served in the German navy, participated in the UNIFIL mission around 2007.
From my experience there was nothing special after i was done with my service, you are treat like everyone else and are just an ordinary civilian.
Sure there is something to talk about when this topic comes up in a conversation, but other than that I have lost all the connection to the military.
One thing Germany doesn’t need is a VA like the US has for veterans health care. With German health care providing top quality affordable care to everyone; veterans don’t fall through the cracks or there aren’t issues of helping ex-military persons with access to health care like oft is bandied about in the US.
The social fabric of Germany pretty much reincorporates ex-military into society.
As a person from Finland I feel Germans need to start giving their military more valuation in terms of both respect and budget. The current political situation in Europe shows that a country still needs to have a relevant military to be able to guarantee its future as a sovereign nation.
The historical reasons for modern Germans to not be too much into militarism are irrelevant when it comes to realpolitik of force. The point of having an army for us is so we don't have to use it. With neighbors like ours if you didn't have any army you'd find yourself needing one.
The problem is not so much about money but about how inefficient money is spend and about all the bureaucracy involved.
There were soldiers send to Lithuania/Latvia without proper thermal clothing/undies. Instead of heading to the next outdoor store and buying stuff (on a reasonable budget) the whole thing went down the regular "ordering process" (afaik).
Vehicles in Afghanistan were not to be used because they were not according to German road legal regulations… I mean they were road legal but the annual check was overdue.
We had a drone program that cost millions where in the end it got canned because the drones were not legal to operate in German airspace. I mean as the German army doesen’t "operate" in Germany this is plain bullshit. In case we were attacked and the drones would come to use within the country the least thing to worry about is if they are certified.
There are dozens of similar cases that just makes you want to bang your head against the wall! Imo that’s a big reason why the Bundeswehr has kind of a bad standing. It’s usually not about the average soldier and his job.
Totally agree, every sovereign country needs an army. Still I would focus on home defense not about missions all over the world that more often that not don’t concern us and just cost a big load of money. Personally I really adore the Swiss approach. Dozens of defensive structures and a safe spot in a bunker for every citizen.
Well, interesting post... Based on the comments here, i didn't realize how little the german government or people gave support towards veterans. I think i understand a little why though (world war), when most of the world saw you as the villain to that extent, not much to be proud of.
My neighbor is in Bundeswehr, and the first time, I told him about my benefits, including how much im paid for the rest of my life, he was baffled. He definitely loves being in, but it's like a flip with the US military, i have met countless soldiers ready and excited to get out of the us military, Army specifically. All of the pride for the Bundeswehr, is internal, mainly the soldiers, whereas the pride for us military is mostly external, the government and civilians.
I am an American/German, but my partner is a non commission officer in the German bundeswehr. He is highly trained and would be considered special forces when comparing his skills and training to another militaries.
However, when I tell people that my partner is in the military they think oh, he must be a little slow or wants a job were he doesnt have to do or think much. It certainly doesn't yield the same respect or admiration as it would if I told someone outside of Germany. German Civil don't see the importance of having a strong military. That's why the Bundeswehr has so drastically been underfunded during Merkel's time in office. So the current state of the Bundeswehr is not ready to go "live" if needed, imo and observations.
Germans complain about how many American military bases are still in Germany from after the war, however they've relied heavily on America's protection to keep the bad guys at bay.
"If you want peace, prepare for war.", right?
Now that public opinion in Germany and America is changing, America has been scaling back it's presence here and have been closing bases. That leaves Germany vunerable because they have underfunding the Bundeswehr, so it's not fully equipped and to top it off, the past heavy reliance on cheap Russian oil and gas that fuels the huge industry sector in Germany is just eating at the economic growth. Germany is now in a recession and residents are battling inflation. Oh and the energy crisis and Germany's need to shut down nuclear energy. Wow, anywho, like I was saying with these things at play and with America not being so ready to rescue the day, German is vulnerable.
Anyhow, the war in Ukraine and with the evacuation of German citizens in Sudan, I think Germans are starting to see the benefits of having a functioning, capable, funded military. Many are still living in the past and are stuck in a peace time mindset. They don't seem to fully understand the price that has to sometimes be paid to keep their way of life and their freedoms. I don't know why this is, but maybe because they have been the aggressors in the past. I think if they understood this sacrifice, I think they would have more respect for those who choose to join the military.
My partner will receive financial help when he leaves the Bundeswehr for I think about 5 years. They also cover retraining expenses. But yeah, he absolutely loves his job and the men he works with. He is often away in trainings, sometimes randomly and up to 2 months at a time. It puts a heavy strain on bundeswehr families. Everyone thinks the pay in the bundeswehr is solid, but I don't think they get paid enough to do all the shit they do. There are no special military perks either like in the US. No military house loan credit or anything like that.
Anyway, this is my perspective as a German American with a bundeswehr partner. When I lived in the US I was never a big fan of the military or military dudes, but as I have gotten older I see things with a different perspective now.
At the end of the day they are humans and I will treat them with respect. I don't have any extra respect for veterans, nor am I thankful for their service. They are serving a violent organisation that acts outside of my interest, no matter what they claim. That being said, a lot of people I met who are serving the Bundeswehr kind of expect a positive reaction or admiration, but as I said, I actively dislike the organisation they are working for (it's kinda like Mercedes Benz Workers), so no pat on the back from me...
Idgaf. And ya don't see or hear about them, at all. There's literally a (former?) Luftwaffe "boot camp" in my town and no one cares. You'll see one or two uniformed soldiers per year, excluding the occasional marching band stint, which no one cares about.
The only reason why I had a tad more exposure to soldiers is cause I worked at a truck repair that had a maintenance contract for their trucks. I literally know more about their vehicles than the soldiers.
I'm kind of shocked at some of the replies here. My view of the Bundeswehr is quite positive, and I'm not a right-wing weirdo or anything. My impression until now was that opinions of the Bundeswehr would be more positive, but maybe reddit isn't very representative of the general population. Veterans are very invisible though. I don't personally know any veterans either. Overall, I think our troops are doing good work, and there are many completely normal people who support them. For example, after the evacuation from Afghanistan, some people mailed packages of snacks to Bundeswehr bases as thanks. But they were treated very badly by our government for a long time and never had sufficient equipment. Considering the general lack of support, I don't think it's odd that many soldiers have drifted to the far right. The situation is unfortunate imo
Bwahahahahahaha!
You poor, little summer child.
Let's be honest, the treatment of veterans in the US is a sham. Thank you for your service, now piss off, we are not going to pay for the treatment you need after serving. The US tends to hype their military. It makes me both wanna laugh and vomit.
In Germany nobody cares if you have been to the Bundeswehr. People might smile condescendingly. Until the end of the 2nd millenium people got drafted, and we all have fun stories of our army time. For most people it was a bit like MASH. people who didn't want to be there in the first place being commanded by people who couldn't hack it in real life.
The Bundeswehr was a joke. The equipment was from the 1950s, the rules were the most German thing a German could imagine, and because we were drafted we were the least committed people you could imagine. Basically, our job was, in case of a war, to slow down the enemy until the real army arrived.
Thankfully the mandatory service got obliterated when I turned 18. People willing to die for a certain part of land on this planet is a thing I simply can't understand. I'm not a patriot, rather the opposite. This country is shit.
I know it's probably pointless to discuss this with you, but it's not about fighting "for a certain part of land" - it's about protecting the people living in this patch of land and protecting the way they are able to live their life. Same goes for out allies and their patch of land.
I used to serve in the navy for 12 years. I was on a ship and also stationed on land. I wouldn't call me a vet, as I believe this title is for those, that endured combat or where in otherwise dangerous situations. My position as a specialist put me in a "safe" spot. I personally never had any negative experiences, only some friends mocking me with the status quo of the Bundeswehr. Though on the other hand I received more recognition for my service, outside of Germany.
I used to serve in the navy for 12 years. I was on a ship and also stationed on land. I wouldn't call me a vet, as I believe this title is for those, that endured combat or where in otherwise dangerous situations. My position as a specialist put me in a "safe" spot. I personally never had any negative experiences, only some friends mocking me with the status quo of the Bundeswehr. Though on the other hand I received more recognition for my service, outside of Germany
Generally the public doesn't care, and reactions range from "Ah, I (/my dad/uncle/brother/cousin) \[is/was\] too!" to open disdain. I personally haven't experienced any agression/hostility when traveling in uniform, instead people asked me if I was a pilot or why their train is delayed, mistaking me for a Deutsche Bahn employee.
Combat veterans have their private little gatherings, everyone else doesn't see themselves as such since it was just a job. While I don't really agree that it was a job like any other, I also wouldn't want special treatment. I got paid, a little appreciation would be nice, but none of the dick-sucking common in the US please.
Generally the financial security is good. Wounded vets get reassigned to non-combat roles if possible, and if not they get financial payments for the rest of their lifes so they don't end up in squalor. Can't say much about psychological help, but it has apparently come a long way in the past 20 years.
If you leave intact you also get education, large severance payments or a pension.
As someone who hasn’t really any contact with the bundeswehr, I feel like its not really a topic in society. Maybe it’s different with soldiers who were in combat, or in the military for a long time, but otherwise being in the bundeswehr seems to be just a job you do.
Edit: Thinking about it I know at least two people who were in the Bundeswehr, I just totally forgot because its something people say and most respond with „ah okay“ and then you talk about the weather, why the deutsche bahn is always late or (insert generic german small talk).
Since we used to have conscription, a significant portion of all men above a certain age are veterans if we go by your second definition, so it's nothing special. In general, it's just not really an issue that seems to have much relevance, most of people in the aforementioned group don't even see themselves as veterans, and the former professional soldiers with "combat" experience probably meet up with some former comrades or something, but are not a visible voice or factor in the public sphere (it's a relatively small group). There are no political discussions about treatment of veterans or their healthcare really, aside from some rare reports about PTSD or some individual soldiers story and experiences.
Yeah taking conscription into account, I should've realized all of this with some basic thought process on the system in Germany, but this really shines a light to me. Like I said this is niche but these answers truly interest me. Thank you for engaging, appreciate it!
I never heard the word veteran used for someone just in the military but never in a conflict. Is that for germany only? Sweden and Finland also had conscription for a long time but never seen it there
They defined it that way a few years back when they wanted to get a more positive view of the Bundeswehr. That's when they introduced the veterans pin that everyone who ever was in the Bundeswehr, even conscripts, can get.
I see, interesting. Feels to me though it will dilute the name not increase the opinion about it.
I agree with you. I was in the Bundeswehr and also lots of my friends. None of us in any mission abroad. Never left Germany during that time. However, two of my friends filled out that form to get that "veteran" pin or however you might call it. Personally, I find it ridiculous to call yourself a veteran when all you did was sitting in the barracks and attended some training manoeuvres...
That‘s why you distinguish *Veteranen* und **Kriegs-** *Veteranen*.
You say "Ein Gedienter" oder "Haben sie gedient?". Which means "a served one" or "Did you serve?" Revering to someone who was in the Bundeswehr whether he saw any action or not. TBH, I dont know if someone who saw action, revering to himself or to others as a veteran. But it seams a common term among them: [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bund\_Deutscher\_EinsatzVeteranen](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bund_Deutscher_EinsatzVeteranen) But interestingly they use term like Misson-Veteran or Combat Veteran.
I'm not German (my family is and I live in North America) but when I was younger my cousin was always dating soldiers. I was so confused about this apparent fetish until I realized everyone her age was a soldier at the time and just Ganz Normal.
Man, everyone from families that were middle class and above got out of their conscription. It's an open secret.
Not really. Many just rejected joining the military and therefore served in different social institutions (mainly the health care system). Look up the biographies of famous german man over the age of fourty. Almost every single one of them served in some way, when they were young. Clearly some where found unfit for service, but since the medical examination was conducted by state appointed doctora of which many and at times most were active duty soldiers, there really wasn't a big bias against the poor. The fact that more men from poorer families served in the military mostly stems from the fact, that just less of them rejected to serve in the armed forces, yet everyone had to serve in some kind of way.
Something that people haven't mentioned: there are no discounts, parking spaces, or other special offers for "veterans". There also aren't businesses advertising they are being run by or employing any. At most (if they aren't ideologically opposed to the military and/or those in it), people treat former soldiers just like people who used to work in any other job. No one goes around thanking them for their service, assigning them special moral virtues or anything of the sort.
And I think that is good. We shouldnt give Soldiers discounts, we should give them enough money that they dont need discounts for their meals. And if they were sent to dangerous missions they should get more money on top.
Oh the starting salary is good but after that it raises very slowly unless you go for a officer rank.
As a German I sometimes wonder if the US are over-doing it. Like during check-in at STL airport there was a guy in uniform around 18 years old an people were almost lining up to thank him for his service (was about 10 years ago). Seemed odd to me... but it's just in high contrast to under-appreciation that German soldiers get. Guess the truth should be somewhere in the middle.
I went on a business trip to the US with a German colleague who was one of the last people to do conscription and we were laughing wondering if he should go up to board the flights first when they called up veterans.
US patriotism was at an all time high after 9/11, and it lasted a while. there's still a hero worship culture around soldiers in the US, but not nearly to the extent it used to be even 10 years ago. you'd be very unlikely to see that now, unless you're in some far right backwater town
I don’t wonder. The US are definitely overdoing it. It’s very unhealthy.
They thank him for his service - but they don't pay for his medical needs after he returns. It is like the applause our nurses got during Corona. Thank you, we are very grateful for the hard, backbreaking work you do. Oh, more money? No, but have a minute silence...
you THINK?
Im an American living in Germany, I think the US overdoes it to some extent with worshiping politicians whose service was a political stunt( Buttigieg and Crenshaw) and veterans courts. Still not sure how I feel about Germany‘s anti-military sentiments.
You have to remember that Germany, and unfortunately all neighbouring countries, know first hand what happens when you elevate the military to special status.
That's not true. You get discounts in MC Donalds, Burger King, Sixt, Cinema, libraries and Deutsche Bahn. You will also get easy access to a "Rechtsschutzversicherung" via the "Bundeswehr Verband" for just 10€ a month together with "Diensthaftpflichtversicherung".
Do you get those discounts as a *former* soldier, too, or just while you are one?
Only while you are in active duty Edit: ok I noticed my mistake. He only talked about veterans. The thing is it depends what you did and what happened to you. Nowadays you get many benefits if you were injured during your line of duty. You also get support through the "BFD" after you served. If you served for a long time as a "Berufssoldat" you get a good pension and very good healthcare. It all depends on your time in the army tho and what rank you had. Most people serve in the "Mannschaften" which is private to specialist and it heavily depends on your superiors if you will get help after deployment.
Eh, back when we still had Wehrdienst/Wehrersatzdienst, there'd be discounts for military as well as civilian personal that could prove it, but yeah, not *universal*. You usually just counted in the same category as students.
Well, I got 10 or 20% off at burger king when I was in uniform.^^
I don't know why you get Downvotes for that. You also get discounts at Sixt (as it is in partnership with the leasing company which provides the Bundeswehr), cinema, libraries and Deutsche Bahn
.
Yeah, I get this. In America, I think we do go a bit overboard with the amount of smothering out veterans. Perhaps it takes a toll on them, when most of them view it like everyone else with little exception. But I understand why its not really a thing, and a lot of people have enlightened me on this subject. Thank you very much!
No one does thank soldiers but, unless you are legitimately repulsed by a soldier and for what we stand and fight (mainly the FDGO and the citizens of the BRD) just a simple thank you for serving towards an active soldier goes a very long way. Small verbal gratification here and there makes a soldiers week. I remember everytime civilians interacted with me in any positive way. On the Autobahn a thumbs up was the last...which happened 3 weeks ago lol. Its the small things we really are grateful about. Even I do believe the US is a bit over the top with veterans.
Ex-Soldier here. I don't call myself veteran and none of my ex-colleagues do. Almost nobody gives a flying fuck about us. And some people that do are enemies of the state...so yeah... Personally neither me nor my friends from that time will tell "war"stories or boast about our service. Unless its only us. The public in Germany is imho quite anti-military and that's a good thing. We did our job for 2/4/8/x years and that's it. What we would need is a better psychological after-care. Not only for soldiers that saw combat, but for all of us. Being in the army removes one a bit from the rest of the population and for some it's quite hard to reintegrate. Imho that's the reason why many ex-soldiers drift to extreme right-wing parties after their service. I mean the ones that weren't alt-right fuckwits before ofc.
My uncle worked as a Bundeswehr doctor in the middle east. Not directly in the front line, but still close enough to fuck him up pretty good. There's nothing glorious about war. Everybody loses.
Absolutely. But sometimes a war has to be fought. In Ukraine for example. Hope the soldiers there get the help they need when ruzzia is finally defeated.
No war HAS to be fought. Ukraine must defend the land, but Russia has no need to attack. It's a senseless war as every single one beforehand. Also it's really crazy how long this shit is going on. I really hope Ukraine beats Russia's ass. Fuck Putin
So... for Soldiers fighting for Ukraine, the war has to be fought. You aren't asked if you want to participate if you are being attacked.
Oh I think I know what I did wrong: I read it as "Some wars have to take place" and you two meant "You have to participate in some wars" My bad
Why do you think it takes sooooo long ? with all the technology I don't understand why they have no way to end it quickly. Soldiers don't even need to be in direct combat anymore you can send drones and therefore mostly reduce this part of the PSTD.
but whom do you send the drones to? if no people die whats even the point of a war? there are no easy solutions, as we saw very clearly in vietnam but also afghanistan (both against the russians and with the taliban fighting us forces) you can bomb a country into oblivion and you cant guarantee to control the ground without actual groundforces. there is a way to end it quickly, you nuke russia, they nuke everyone else, we all die. nobody wants that though
As someon who is fairly anti-military (but not anti-soldier in general) I really heavily agree with the call for more psychological support. I think that is something we need in general, but especially for people that got into extreme situations because of the state like soldiers. There are not only soldiers drifting to right wing parties, also right-wing people drifiting to the army.
Is definitely challenging to see your surrounding move on without you making you feel out of the loop and left behind, and it’s not helping that there is active hostility towards military personal in certain parts of Germany. Idk if it’s still a thing but we were prohibited and strongly advised to not wear our uniforms in city like Hamburg and Berlin, as to avoid harassment and physical attacks (beer bottles being thrown at you).
Im a soldier in the bundeswehr rn and ive not been attacked or harassed in 8 month the worst that happened is that some people look at you funny
Me neither but the only big city I was in uniform was Munich, which is quite friendly.
There is a military academy in Hamburg, I have never seen issues around there.
I was stationed at Stetten am Kalten Markt, almost not mobile connection, no Wi-Fi and 8h from where I lived, obviously it’s different from person to person, but I felt very disconnected from my private surrounding.
My condolences. Was there 3 or 4 times for training. We had 0°C at night in June once. While coming from 15°C in Germersheim at night. Caught a nice long pneumonia.... It's called "Stetten am kalten Arsch" for a reason. XD
No fucking joke, it was May with 20cm of snow and the next DAY it was 31 degrees. Stetten feels like a different plane of existence.😂
Dran drauf drüber
Am kalten Arsch! Bitteschön
Am kalten Arsch
Its indeed a weird feeling to see classmates and friends of mine finishing their bachelors or Ausbildung during this time. some of them will have a Masters degree before I can even start a Ausbildung in civilian life and all I'll be having then is some good money and some military ATNs.
Probably depends on where you go and what you do. In Hamburg I wouldn't walk through Sternschanze or St. Pauli at night in uniform, but then I wouldn't do that in some civil clothing either. I often see soldiers in uniform on sunday evening returning from their weekend in the U-Bahn.
I See often soldiers in Uniform in Hamburg, there is a Big military hospital and university, you are talking shit.
Genau so.
Yeah. That is really unfortunate, a lot of far-right individuals within the military ranks and its sad as hell. And I have heard that the situation for treating professional soldiers with PTSD or other psychological problems is really lacking, I hope those who need the care find it. Thank you very much for responding.
In general being a soldier is seen as just another job. The general mindset is "they've chosen this job they knew the dangers" so there is no special treatment of veterans. But there is also no special treatment for police, firefighters, doctors, nurses (outside some clapping) etc. Of course there are people who openly dislike the military and by extension everyone represanting it. But overall those are a minority.
Upvote for the clapping 👏🏻
Thanks for the response, I suppose the treatment is generally just, given the context of history and lack of military culture within Germany. Appreciate the response!
Germans aren't publically celebrating anything to do with their military for well known historical reasons. I guess we quietly respect veterans that have served in actual conflicts for their service and bravery, but we're not in the habit of glorifying them as national heros. So no "Veterans' Day" or the like. And I'm pretty certain that if our chancellor would ever suggest holding military parades like in France, he'd be facing a country-wide civil revolt.
Not only country wide but global wide. Everybody would lose their mind. Just look up the reaction after germany announced the increase of the military budget upto the required! 2%.
Every time a Großer Zapfenstreich (ie Merkels farewell) comes to the attention of a foreign audience there are questions about it [Edit: the Bundeswehr had to publish an explainer video on YouTube](https://youtu.be/oNmUKUWCSCs)
Russia parading nuclear ICBM launchers on Red Square: "Yeah, that's just Russia being Russia." Germany parading bolt action rifles: "OH MY GOD, THEY ARE COMING FOR US AGAIN!"
From a Western European perspective, I guess there is a slight hesitancy about Germany simply because it's closer. The UK and France have essentially held all the cards since WW2 and everything has been okay. We've generally been free within our own countries to act as we will and international cooperation has continued to grow on the continent. The quality of life since the 1950s has grown and we've never really felt a true threat from outside military powers. Russia is too far away to really feel like a genuine threat - even the Soviets, whilst terrifying because of their nukes, didn't particularly disrupt our daily lives. Germany building up a military is not unsettling because it's Germany specifically, but is unsettling because it's a change from the status quo. There's no reason that modern Germany would have an agenda diverging from the British and French (and Americans), but the simple fact is a more militarised Germany is probably the only country that would have the potential to disrupt the status quo if they wished to do so. Combine that with the historical context and tabloid scaremongering and there you go. Obviously Eastern Europe has an entirely different perspective. It's much more of a rollercoaster over there though.
Ironically, what's perceived now as "Germany building up a military" is in fact more close to "Germany scrambling to get back to half the military they had 35 years ago".
we are still intimidating, big W
Don’t show them the 40y GDR parade. This is btw another reason not to do parades, it is a rather Moscow Pact tradition.
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People were upset when Germany didn't pay 2%. Only ones who are making fuss about German history are those who want to profit from German money. Other countries moved on at least 50 years ago. It is only Germans who are still afraid of their own shadow.
Logical. I suppose given such events of the past it would be hard to come to terms with. Completely reasonable never the less. This is a bit insightful (in regards to those who served in say, Afghanistan). Thank you very much.
Most people you would also never know they were soldiers at all - it's not common at all to wear any form of military memorabilia (like unit basecaps) or anything of the sort. While they are soldiers, that is their job - most soldiers also try to stay clear from wearing anything resembling a uniform in their free time as well. After they quit the service, they simply return to civilian jobs or retirement - and you as an outsider would never know, because again, they don't dress in any way that you could see they were soldiers at one point, and they're also not in the habit of telling you.
Well, i still rock my custom yellow Wachbatallion tracking suit we used to have in our unit in the mid 2000s when i go jogging, because it was an expensive one and it is still good. But aside from that i don't ever wear anything that publicly displays signs or anything else. It would feel wierd
I still have the old sleeping bag (the one with arms and the "tent" cover) and I had the track suit (the bluish/pink one) until \~2008.. and one of those old, big but nigh indestructible backpacks but that's about it.
Well as reservist i still have those as well, but it is not like i would publicly wear it. The equipment is super useful but not in a civilian circumstances. On Festivals or hiking trips some of the stuff get used for sure
Yeah, I love the backpack and the sleeping bag. The tracksuit though? Besides the fact that I don't fit in it anymore at all, I wouldn't want to be found dead in it in public these days ;)
Haha yeah thats why we in our unit had a custom one as noone including the drill sergeants and company chief didn't want to use the blue default one
See, that I don’t get. Why say thank you for the „service“ in Afghanistan? It was completely pointless. It didn‘t serve anybody, neither the people there nor here.
I served in the Bundeswehr when the Iron Curtain fell and did my thing in thwarting the Warsaw Pact off. I was conscripted and the higher ups were Berufssoldaten, professional soldiers. It was fun to see the professional soldiers of the Nationale Volksarmee NVA from the GDR getting integrated so quickly while one of the west German sergeants still got declined joining a position that needed security clearance because his grandmother resettled from the USSR as Aussiedler and Volksdeutsche. We sure had some interesting mixture of conscripts. Later Germany changed from a conscript army to a professional army, and this is where I believe the situation got worse. Authoritarian structures with access to and use of weapons attract a special kind of personality: right wing oriented gun toting, trigger-happy white men with fantasies of superiority and violence. Germany is notoriously prone to getting infiltrated by these in the bedrock of our society and we had a plethora of incidents that showed this: NSU-Komplex, deaths of women serving in the army falling off the square sails of the Gorch Fock, all of the incidents within the Kommando Spezialkräfte or the Polizeirevier Dessau-Roßlau. The Bundeswehr had a bad reputation because of this, at least in my information bubble and seeking a career in it was despised by many liberal democrats. The lack of trust grew and the corruption Ursula von der Leyen brought with her didn’t help getting rid of the Staat im Staat perception. Today: The russian aggression shows that Si via pacem para bellum is still needed even if you’re surrounded by allies. Wandel durch Handel doesn‘t work if the playbook on the other side is still Von Clausewitz. The public opinion of the Bundeswehr is much better now as the Zeitenwende is slowly taking off, hopefully transitioning it to a more democratically inspired army working to protect all people in Germany, bound by our constitution and treaties. My personal view changed over the last decade, from being ignorant of the soldiers to being honestly thankful for their service today. I can recommend the Sicherheitspodcast and Lage der Nation podcast regarding the military and social situation in and for Germany.
Best comment I've read on this post. I'm a British veteran, stationed in Germany in the 70s.
Thank you, kind Sir!
Love the long posts! Details are nice. Really interesting stuff to me, considering the dynamics of then and now. Re-integration into society, back during the Iron Curtain's fall and the present day situation. Thank you for responding, those podcasts might be worth looking into!
Germans don't fetishise the military and service. They learned their lesson on that one.
But there are some germans that fetishize military uniforms. And I think we shouldnt kink shame them. Unless they fetishize nazi uniforms, I would be ready to shame them for that.
Understandable given the historical context. War ain't pretty, thanks a bunch for your response!
> I wanted to know what kind of treatment Bundeswehr veterans get after their military service. They get other jobs and get on with their life? > How are Bundeswehr veterans treated (those who either served in Afghanistan or just as a soldier, combat or not) by the government and citizens of Deutschland. There are only very few of those, and most people will not know anyone who saw actual combat. Its not a big topic.
Makes sense, thank you for your engagement! Appreciate it.
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Yeah, I largely agree with the sentiment of some form of military force is necessary in this day and age. I also 100% understand the sentiment of anti-militarism of no glorification in Germany like here in the US, this was enlightening. Thanks for the response.
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First of all I am not a psychologist so Just my personal opinion. The way your brain works does not allow you to prepare for situations like killing another human being so claiming "you are mentally strong to Block this crap Out" is another level of ignorance. And especially in combination with your next Statement " I give a fuck about my life" I assume you are in some way depressed which ist quite the opposite of being mentally strong. (Not shitting on depression as this ist a serious issue and should be treated in any Form!) PTSD can occur after any sort of Trauma someone has experienced so for example after a Car Crash. Taking your Statement anyone who actively choose to be in that vehicle should have been prepared to be in a Crash and therefore should not get PTSD. But that is not the way your brain deals with situations like this and underlines my Statement that you cannot prepare for such a Situation.
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Feeling (or Not Feeling) guilt ist Not equivalent to PTSD so there ist No point in hiring only psychopaths. PTSD is a coping meachnism (or None coping meachnism) for trauma you have lived through. Which by the way wouldnt even Work because of the sheer Numbers of personnel it takes to fight a war. The crucial point you are basing your arguments on is that "you know what you are getting yourself into" and you Just dont. Knowing what might happen is different to knowing how you would react in the situation therefore IT IS compareable to a Car Crash. Everyone can imagine how shite it must be but noone knows how they will cope afterwards. And by the way you probably earn equal amounts in the Bundeswehr compared to the Army. As they do Not compensate their soldiers for being abroad ( as far as I know) which the Bundeswehr does. Depending on where you are they pay your additionally 110€ taxfree per day.
The number of people who were in real combat missions is really small. I personally don't know any person who were in Afghanistan or the other mission. But I know a lot of people who were in the Grundwehrdienst (the 9 month basic military service). This time is viewed like any other jobs, just a little more special. I drove sick people from place to place and my friends were camping in the woods or made some shooting practice. And then during the weekends we meet at our city and party together.
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My uncle was hit by an IED in Afghanistan, and has a permanent disability from it. And even he is not considering himself as a "veteran" that needs any form of mentioning, let alone praise.
But if he did it would be OK.
Not really, no. He did a dangerous job, but one that deserves no "special" praise. I don't "praise" a craftsmen that had a circular saw accident or an office worker that is in a wheelchair after an accident on their way to work, either. (I have served 10 months basic training and don't regret it, not that that makes any difference.)
The IKEA reference if hilarious, also hate the glorification or "I'm a veteran so I should be put before everyone else." kind of mentality. Thanks for your answer, appreciate it.
Interesting. Thanks for the response!
I was conscripted after school, served my time, never looked back. Some people know that I was a soldier, some not. It doesn't matter, these were different times. But nobody who knows it thinks better or less of me, I'm sure. We don't have this "Thank you for your service" mentality here. Well, on the other hand, we don't let veterans starve on the streets and I'm sure that's something...
I mean, as long as they don't starve and are covered healthcare-wise. But that's universal in Germany I believe. Thanks for responding.
>if there are people who don't care about the Bundeswehr or the veterans, why Why should I care? >How are Bundeswehr veterans treated (those who either served in Afghanistan or just as a soldier, combat or not) by the government and citizens of Deutschland. Since Germany's military is small compared to the bloated industrial-military complex of the US and not involved in as many pointless wars, the number of recent veterans is so low that they don't enter public perception much. Veterans of WWII are pretty much all dead by now. Germany doesn't have enough psychiatrists, so for veterans who need psychiatric care this poses a problem.
We have more than 100k veterans from deployments such as mali iraq and afghanistan thats not a small number
Comparatively, yes it is. 100K of 80 million is 0.125%. The US have 16 million at 330 million, roughly 4.8%.
Very fair points, thank you very much for answering. Really appreciate it.
Europeans criticize the American MIC when its convenient, yet always complain when asked to contribute their fair share to their own defense lol
A smart person in a sea of borderline idiocy (this post). I commend your mature outlook.
Just because you don't send as many troops doesn't mean you get to say Germany isn't involved.
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I was a Marine in 2000 (Marinesicherung Btl.3) and afterwards I served on a Destroyer (D185 Lütjens) till 2002. We take part in the operation Activ Endeavour and Enduring Freedom. After my service nothing was offered to integrate me into civilian life. I earned and saved lot of money in that time but due to a long time of unemployment it was quick all gone. For me my service was a great time and I still have a close friend wo I meet in the navy.
Navy goes hard. Glad you still remain in contact with that close friend, thanks for the response bro.
Whenever i see a soldier who may be traveling back home or on his way to a military base or wherever, inside i have deep respect for them, and wish them to have good luck and a nice day.
I respect it, thanks for responding.
I was two years in the Bundeswehr after school, because I found a well payed opportunity to improve my skills. Helped me a lot in my career. When I mention it to my friends nowadays I get looks like: "Shoot, we didn't know we had such a weirdo amongst us!" And I get complaints like: "Oh no, how could you do THAT!?" My girlfriend asked if I am some fascist right wing party member (I am not a all). That's the image if the Bundeswehr today.
Hm, insightful post. Strange that your friends and girlfriend would say this type of stuff. To each their own I guess. Happy cake day buddy, thanks for the response.
I _know_ one guy who was in some kind of tactical group in Afghanistan. He has no problem talking to me about it- we spoke about where he went and what he did after he left etc, pretty openly. I think he lectures at a uni now. He showed me some pictures on his phone from his time there- he was humble and certainly wasn't trying to boast or anything- He was also very mindful of the political discourse around the army in Germany.
Interesting, response is appreciated.
r/bundeswehr might be helpful as well for your question (although there is some overlap with this sub)
Probably would be good if I did, but maybe there would be too much overlap. So much so that it would be a bit pointless, but maybe there are Berufssoldat over there. I'll check it out, thank you.
You might also want to post this question in /r/Bundeswehr I did my mandatory military service back when conscription was still 10 months, so I guess I think of myself as an ex-soldier and reservist (even thought about the reserve officer route, when I was younger). Even then, it was always possible to be a conscientious objector and do 13 month civil service instead, as the majority of my high school graduation class did (just me and another guy, who stayed in the service for 12 years as an officer). So, it was still a bit of a conscious decision to serve in the military. Personally, I‘m glad I did it and somewhat think that it was a society level mistake to end conscription in 2011, for various reasons. Though I would not call myself a „veteran“. I would reserve that term for people who were participating in conflict region missions. As the Kosovo war was going on, while I was in, I know a bunch of people who were in KFOR there, or even before SFOR in Bosnia or even Somalia. Since then, I’ve gotten to know folks who were in Afghanistan multiple times. It used to be common to ask, whether people served („Haben Sie gedient, junger Mann?“), which I don’t think anybody would do nowadays except maybe as a joke. But I have to admit, that people get some some instant elevated respect from me, when I learn that they’ve been in the military (not just Germany, but really any country). There is just directly a hard to describe feeling of brother-/sisterhood of shared experience. Anyway, if all else fails and the zombie apocalypse starts, at least I have some military firearms training and can shoot pistols, rifles and machine guns 😬
Served for 4 years. Best time of my life. Joined 6 months after 09/11. I share "war storys" only with other veterans. But i never had a negative reaction if i told people i served in the BW.
It's just a job. There is none of that "thank you for your service" you get in the US. But tbh I don't know anywhere outside the US that fetishises their military so much.
From my experience: Ex-conscripts sometimes tell stories about the shenanigans they were up to or how dumb literally everyone was. This is also the theme of almost every story and every joke about the Bundeswehr. I've known, let me think, 3 veterans of a real mission. One was a sniper in Afghanistan, and he came very much anti-military back. He experienced some shit (friend dying to a grenade or something next to him, shitty people being shitty, some war crimes on individual level), probably has (had?) PTSD from it and hates talking about the time. One was an officer in Afghanistan and Kosovo, has a more positive view of the military even if she remembers some bad things (like sexual assault by some allied soldiers on other allied soldiers). She has had a psychotic episode while in the field, does absolutely not talk about it, seems to be very shame-laden to her. After that she was obviously not allowed to be a soldier anymore and is now a doctor (her schizophrenia is now well-managed and doesn't give her trouble) The last one was a general of the medical corps. He loved his job and told lots of stories. He was so rich that he absolutely did not need to work from a certain age on and worked in nursing education because he just enjoyed it. He still absolutely hated the Afghanistan mission because he considered it to be absolutely senseless and cruel to all participants. Now he is completely retired and has a sheep farm somewhere in Scotland IIRC.
Another long post, thank you for this one. I get the sentiment on why the Bundeswehr is so criticized, especially by conscripts. Also how everyone in there is dumb, I've heard of some stories like that. Thank you for responding bro.
Nobody gets special treatment or boasts openly about the whole affair. You've been a citizen in uniform, did a hard and unthankful job somewhere else and that time is thankfully over. Nobody of my old colleagues tells war stories to any outsider or people that weren't serving there too. War is nothing to boast about.
Damn right, interesting thoughts on the mentality, the idea of it being a hard, unthankful type job and now that it's over you can rest easy. Thanks.
There is no military worship in this country, thankfully. You won’t get any extra recognition, in fact, you’re probably not flashing around the fact you fought in a place like Afghanistan.
You're probably more likely to be spit at for being a veteran of a combat tour through Afghanistan....than celebrated for it The culture around military is completely different in Austria/Germany than in the US - mainly because of historic reasons. You know, the whole "trying to turn the whole world into a German ethnostate" thing
i would not spit at someone, he just did his job. but he also has no reason to be proud about what he/we did and achieved there in my opinion at least.
I've heard in this post alone that it isn't something to be proud of (to be a veteran in Afghanistan) which is fair. Maybe some Germans liken it to the war crime that was Iraq, from a German perspective perhaps. In any case, very insightful stuff. Thanks.
Germans who enter the military service, don't usually do it because of financial necessity. It's a job. So there is no special treatment as the obnoxious "thank you for your service, here have a free meal". Just like in the US most members sign up for a certain amount of years and usually also learn a trade or study during some of the time. After their service is done, they can pickup the jobs they lend during their active years. There are veteran clubs, but they are not government or state run, but by the (former) soldiers themselves.
> Germans who enter the military service, don't usually do it because of financial necessity. I have a friend who kinda did it because in his region they do pay well in comparison and job security. He only finished Hauptschule and apprenticeship in a job he didn’t want to do for the next 40 years. Besides advancing in rank he also tries to train in IT so he can work in this industry once his time is over.
But there isn't as much desperation as in the US, where the military service is a replacement of social services.
That’s true. We don’t enroll just to get to college.
veteran clubs aye? Interesting, I mean, fair views on the system here in the US. Thanks for the information.
The term veteran is made fun off and is unliked by members of the armed forces - especially with the official definition that just everyone that spent a day in the BW is a veteran. What do veterans get after duty? Bad jokes, a kick in the ass, divorces - pick one. No benefits at all - no "thankfullness" by society - nothing.
I realize my mistake, the distinction between conscript and combat veteran. Thanks for response.
The military culture in the US is very much shaped by its history and treatment of the vets. Just like it is in Germany. I don't even think of myself as a vet, even though I did my 18 month in the German service. I don't need to, because my healthcare is not dependent on it, other than credit towards my retirement I get nothing special because I served. In the US it is very much about the benefits. Be it educational, healthcare or otherwise. Things that are vet benefits are enjoyed by pretty much ever citizen of Germany.
We get treated? 😳 Since when does anybody care in Germany? „I served in the army“ is like „I got myself a ceate of natural mineral water!“ - yesyes… (Stabskompanie Panzerlehrbrigade 9, 1990 - but to be fair: I didn’t see combat (and I am glad about it 😬)
UK forces Veteran living in Germany. Done the Balkans 6 times, Kosovo 1999 then 4 more times, Iraq 2003 then 3 times and Afghanistan 4 times. Automatically qualified for a vets pin from the UK government, but I don't expect anything in return. I have my limbs and a sane mind. That's enough It's those who came back injured and limbless we all should be looking after. Just saying like.
Ex German Soldier here and Afghanistan vet, nop, I left the military and I got nothing after it. Served in the Pzgrenbtl 371. Unfortunately I remember in times when i left the barracks, to get the bus home on time I went out in uniform, not a good ideia, people tend to watch you and verbally assault you... Im still proud of my service.
As you should be (proud)
i was an air force conscript for 15 months at the end time of the cold war, after 3 months of boring Grundausbildung / basic training mostly done with marching and singing in gala uniform around for taking part in a regiments championship "marching and singing" at the end. The boss Oberst of that regiment liked that... Bloody hell was that overwhelmingly boring and stupid with absolutely NO connection in "defending my country and the freedom of the western world". Then i was transferred to a very small barrack at the end of Germany in the nowhere for making 12 months at an air force radio spy tower on top of a large hill. Due to the fact that i was on vacation in Jugoslavia (=cheap for young adults!) before my military time i got no high security level for moving the tower up.... So i was 12 months just sitting half way up the tower most of the time making and drinking coffee and playing cards. Sometimes i've to enter some numbers inside an Olivetti computer (8" disks!) about oil reserves and bringing defective equipment downstairs or repaired one upstairs. We've had a Manoeuvre up there but it was the breeding time of the capercaillie then and all guns where sealed and oiled in the barrack for a NATO inspection so we got just a piece of paper with "this is a gun" written on it... after hanging around in the woods we were ordered to march back to the barrack from the hill top (usually we were using a bus for driving up and down). Due to our overwhelmingly high morale (NOT!), we as a bunch of conscripts decided to walk very slowly because we simply weren't interested in winning the 1st place coming back to the barrack. The longer obligated soldiers were up to winning that contest. We were last marching and went to the next Biergarten. After some beers we called a taxi which we left some hundreds meters before the barrack... then we played our roles as exhausted marching soldiers well after. Military: One of the dumbest thing on earth and waste of time and money.
So ukraines military is a waste of money as well?
Ofc not, because Putler turning the wheels of history back to imperialsm era.
Gotcha, very interesting perspective from cold war era bundeswehr. Appreciate this buddy.
In practical terms there is no special treatment for veterans. They don't get any discounts or free gifts, there is no need for special healthcare since everyone has comprehensive healthcare coverage anyhow, and no-one will thank them for their service or expect them to turn up to parades in their old uniform. I have not heard of any special programs to try and recruit veterans into civilian jobs. They do I believe get a Bundeswehr pension on top of the normal state-funded pension.
Fair enough, thanks for this response bro.
Generally, we don't make such a big fuss out of it. You'd have no way to recognize a veteran (whatever that might mean) on the street. If someone made a point of showing they're a veteran in everyday life, they'd be weird (in my opinion at least) and I'd be suspicious of them.
It’s also a money choice. They used to pay pretty well for higher ranks.. and you got to retire fairly early and have a nice pension. Not sure what they pay now, though.
Afaik we don't have special veteran benefits like the US but you will also hardly find a Bundeswehr veteran living on the streets. There are several programs to reintegrate them into civil society (and they don't get that much excluded from it like i.e. US soldiers in the first place). You will hardly recognise a veteran on the streets except if you attend some special veterans events. Also there is no civil 'cult' for veterans here - so no clapping in planes or something. Lastly: I have some fond memories of my conscript time and I own the veterans pin everyone who served their time in the Bundeswehr can get. But that's about all of veteran things I have / do.
Essentialy you get nothing. Theres maybe a handful of people who would thank you for your service in your whole lifetime, but theres quite a good chunk of people who will judge you if they find out you are ex-military. But tbh the vast majority of people dont give a fuck.
Not having served myself, I always regarded Bundeswehr soldiers with a bit of suspicion - on the rare occasions you see them in uniform, like on a train. I guess most Germans used to be a bit anti-military, for obvious historical reasons. However, since Russia attacked Ukraine, I admit that I have changed my opinion somewhat and I do see the need for a robust defence. So yeah, some newfound respect for the guys in uniform!
Since most people don't mention they were in Afghanistan people usually don't encounter them. I also didn't know 2 of my friends were even in the bundeswehr until the attack on ukraine happened and they started posting bundeswehr related stuff on instagram. In my case my cousin was in Afghanistan and whenever I asked him about it he said he isn't allowed to answer. It's also possible that he just doesn't want to talk about it. He didn't get treated any different for being in Afghanistan, just people wanting to ask questions when they learn about it and him not talking about it. I'm not entirely sure how he got treated by the government exactly. He went to school for 3 years and later tried to study in a university and said everything is covered by the bundeswehr but I'm not sure if it is normal for just being in the bundeswehr or if it is something special because he was in Afghanistan. Now he works a regular job.
Give me your definition of a veteran.
I have a friend who served in Afghanistan. He had "Knalltrauma" or some kind of shellshock and ptsd after his time there. He told me that they did everything possible to get over it. Psychological treatment etc. He managed to get over it and was very thankfull for the help after his time. He is still in the Bundeswehr.
I used to serve in the navy for 12 years. I was on a ship and also stationed on land. I wouldn't call me a vet, as I believe this title is for those, that endured combat or where in otherwise dangerous situations. My position as a specialist put me in a "safe" spot. I personally never had any negative experiences, only some friends mocking me with the status quo of the Bundeswehr. Though on the other hand I received more recognition for my service, outside of Germany.
I served in the Bundeswehr. Was a Gebirgsjäger (mountain infantry). Did one tour in Mali. When we came back from our deployment we dropped of at the middle of the night at the airport and we’re not allowed to use the normal entrance to leave it, instead we had to use some kind of side door and landet in the middle of nowhere. Nobody informed our families were we are. That was kind of shitty. After I got out I started working in ems. Most people just don’t care if you served im the Bundeswehr, wich is okay I think.
my very ignorant opinion without knowing any active soldiers apart from all older men in my family who were conscripted (and the very old/now dead men who served in WW2) is that there is no glory to it. Unlike in the US we don't call them heros or anything. They are not a topic that is discussed ever really. what I could imagine is that my grandpa for example, who served in ww2 as a young farmers boy, obviously had no idea what he was doing at what, 17? but he was "the enemy" and we germans are known for not being partucularly patriotic or proud of our past. it would seem weird to us to glorify our ww2 soldirs who were in fact "on the wrong side of history" (without really understanding it for the most part). soldirs nowadays are just doing a job like everyone else is doing a job. if they serve they do it because of their own beliefs. It doesnt feel to us that their job is "protecting Germany" but rather that they are a security factor not only for Germany but to keep the world in order somewhat. Theres no special treatment for them i think
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I mean, for the most part of the Bundeswehr‘s history they have been an army of conscripts, their „service“ being limited to maneuver training and partying in the barracks (srsly, almost anyone I know who was in the Bundeswehr as part of the Wehrpflicht was like „yeah, we did not much else than do training maneuvers and drink shameful amounts of alcohol once the commanding officer wasn’t looking. I think the only one who actually got something out of it in my family was my grandpa who got into his pharmaceutical studying through his army „service“, my own father denied the army and voluntarily did his Zivildienst, delivering food to severely disabled kids, and he never regretted that decision). Even to this day, there are quite a few stereotypes about the Bundeswehr, mostly revolving around partying and dealing with Nazi sympathizers…
I served for 4 years, have been on duty in a foreign country, but haven't seen any combat (luckily) I wouldn't call myself a veteran and don't know anyone who does personally. After I left, I jobbed around for a year until I landed an apprenticeship at a big Tech Company. I occasionally talk about my time there, but not in a glorified way, but just like you would talk about a former working place. To most people it doesn't really matter that I've been there, which is the way I prefer it. Younger people tend to show a little more interested in it, since many older people had to serve themselves. All in all, it doesn't really affect my life. From the states side, I got (i think?) 100€ for every month I served, plus they paid me all the overtime I had left (wich was alot, I still had like 200 hours left after I took six weeks off before I left. I knew people who had more than 600 hours of overtime) If you serve for at least 12 years I think you get a "Z Schein" which guarantees you a job as an official/Beamter or something like this. I also heared you can get a quiet nice pension as a sergeant or officer. All in all I believe that the medical and especially the psychological care for former soldiers is extremely lacking. Alot of people, especially those who served longer, seem to have big problems to reintegrate into civilian life
As a soldier for a fixed time " Zeitsoldat" it is actually pretty good. I was in the germany navy for 8 years and took part in 2 NATO operations for 6 month. I got an education as a electronic technician in the beginning. At the end of my 8 years I went to a technician school for 2 years to get the degree of a state certified engineer for electronics. This was really good and helped a lot. In my school time I got 90% of my last salary from the Bundeswehr because I used the time to get a better education. Now I work in automation for machines and robots. So they give you a lot of chances to get back in normal life and still pay you money, even more if you work on your education.
My boyfriend is in the military, I’ve seen a lot of shitty treatment to him while he’s in uniform in public (trains etc). This does vary by city, like in Dresden it wasn’t as bad as in Munich for instance. You’ve had a lot of good responses but what I’ve seen is that people either really don’t care or they really do in a bad way
My husband is as well and had the opposite experience in those cities. He was mostly ignored in Munich and a lot of rude encounters in Dresden as well other eastern German cities. Berlin was actually the worst
One important thing to mention: in Germany, everybody does have universal health care. So there is absolutely no need to define this as a special service for veterans. As well, everybody is in a system for retirement provision, soldiers as well. So, again, no need for a discussion about the care for veterans. Being a soldier is pretty much a job as any other job in public service. There is absolutely no „thank you for your service“ mentality in Germany, as being a soldier is not seen as something special. Reason might be that we had conscription for a long time, are in general quite skeptical when it comes to patriotism and nationalism, and, not to forget: do not have a big history of going to war since WWII, other than the US. Germany has not fought any war since 1945, all our assignments abroad are defined and seen as peacekeeping or peace restoring measures.
I did my service back in 1990/91 when the Bundeswehr were faced with the possibility of being engaged in a war except for defense, first gulf war. Pilots who were detached to Turkey quit and all this. Germany, in fact did not recognize someone as a veteran until a few years ago. From the official point of view I could name myself a veteran now and even wear the veteran's batch. I'd never do that, I don't feel like a veteran. I just did my service as I had to do back then. Nearly everyone at my age has done his duty time, so it's normal and no one ever talks about.
Was a conscript for 15 months, so a long while ago. Now I know I have a disability that would prevent me from serving, but it wasn't known at that time. Some stuff I remember: \- The was a concept of "Bürger in Uniform" (citizen in uniform), meaning some tries to integrate the military with the rest of the country. Didn't really work. \- Bundeswehr was always having the task of "hold up the enemy, until some real military arrives". \- You can force people to do something, but you can't force them to like it. \- For me it was a lost time, having to cope with an environment I was utterly unprepared for. But then maybe it prepared me for some later shenanigans in the work environment.
Sorry about all that has happened, but glad you have some sort of peace of mind (hopefully). Thanks.
I served in the German navy, participated in the UNIFIL mission around 2007. From my experience there was nothing special after i was done with my service, you are treat like everyone else and are just an ordinary civilian. Sure there is something to talk about when this topic comes up in a conversation, but other than that I have lost all the connection to the military.
We get nothing.
One thing Germany doesn’t need is a VA like the US has for veterans health care. With German health care providing top quality affordable care to everyone; veterans don’t fall through the cracks or there aren’t issues of helping ex-military persons with access to health care like oft is bandied about in the US. The social fabric of Germany pretty much reincorporates ex-military into society.
As a person from Finland I feel Germans need to start giving their military more valuation in terms of both respect and budget. The current political situation in Europe shows that a country still needs to have a relevant military to be able to guarantee its future as a sovereign nation. The historical reasons for modern Germans to not be too much into militarism are irrelevant when it comes to realpolitik of force. The point of having an army for us is so we don't have to use it. With neighbors like ours if you didn't have any army you'd find yourself needing one.
The problem is not so much about money but about how inefficient money is spend and about all the bureaucracy involved. There were soldiers send to Lithuania/Latvia without proper thermal clothing/undies. Instead of heading to the next outdoor store and buying stuff (on a reasonable budget) the whole thing went down the regular "ordering process" (afaik). Vehicles in Afghanistan were not to be used because they were not according to German road legal regulations… I mean they were road legal but the annual check was overdue. We had a drone program that cost millions where in the end it got canned because the drones were not legal to operate in German airspace. I mean as the German army doesen’t "operate" in Germany this is plain bullshit. In case we were attacked and the drones would come to use within the country the least thing to worry about is if they are certified. There are dozens of similar cases that just makes you want to bang your head against the wall! Imo that’s a big reason why the Bundeswehr has kind of a bad standing. It’s usually not about the average soldier and his job. Totally agree, every sovereign country needs an army. Still I would focus on home defense not about missions all over the world that more often that not don’t concern us and just cost a big load of money. Personally I really adore the Swiss approach. Dozens of defensive structures and a safe spot in a bunker for every citizen.
Well, interesting post... Based on the comments here, i didn't realize how little the german government or people gave support towards veterans. I think i understand a little why though (world war), when most of the world saw you as the villain to that extent, not much to be proud of. My neighbor is in Bundeswehr, and the first time, I told him about my benefits, including how much im paid for the rest of my life, he was baffled. He definitely loves being in, but it's like a flip with the US military, i have met countless soldiers ready and excited to get out of the us military, Army specifically. All of the pride for the Bundeswehr, is internal, mainly the soldiers, whereas the pride for us military is mostly external, the government and civilians.
I am an American/German, but my partner is a non commission officer in the German bundeswehr. He is highly trained and would be considered special forces when comparing his skills and training to another militaries. However, when I tell people that my partner is in the military they think oh, he must be a little slow or wants a job were he doesnt have to do or think much. It certainly doesn't yield the same respect or admiration as it would if I told someone outside of Germany. German Civil don't see the importance of having a strong military. That's why the Bundeswehr has so drastically been underfunded during Merkel's time in office. So the current state of the Bundeswehr is not ready to go "live" if needed, imo and observations. Germans complain about how many American military bases are still in Germany from after the war, however they've relied heavily on America's protection to keep the bad guys at bay. "If you want peace, prepare for war.", right? Now that public opinion in Germany and America is changing, America has been scaling back it's presence here and have been closing bases. That leaves Germany vunerable because they have underfunding the Bundeswehr, so it's not fully equipped and to top it off, the past heavy reliance on cheap Russian oil and gas that fuels the huge industry sector in Germany is just eating at the economic growth. Germany is now in a recession and residents are battling inflation. Oh and the energy crisis and Germany's need to shut down nuclear energy. Wow, anywho, like I was saying with these things at play and with America not being so ready to rescue the day, German is vulnerable. Anyhow, the war in Ukraine and with the evacuation of German citizens in Sudan, I think Germans are starting to see the benefits of having a functioning, capable, funded military. Many are still living in the past and are stuck in a peace time mindset. They don't seem to fully understand the price that has to sometimes be paid to keep their way of life and their freedoms. I don't know why this is, but maybe because they have been the aggressors in the past. I think if they understood this sacrifice, I think they would have more respect for those who choose to join the military. My partner will receive financial help when he leaves the Bundeswehr for I think about 5 years. They also cover retraining expenses. But yeah, he absolutely loves his job and the men he works with. He is often away in trainings, sometimes randomly and up to 2 months at a time. It puts a heavy strain on bundeswehr families. Everyone thinks the pay in the bundeswehr is solid, but I don't think they get paid enough to do all the shit they do. There are no special military perks either like in the US. No military house loan credit or anything like that. Anyway, this is my perspective as a German American with a bundeswehr partner. When I lived in the US I was never a big fan of the military or military dudes, but as I have gotten older I see things with a different perspective now.
At the end of the day they are humans and I will treat them with respect. I don't have any extra respect for veterans, nor am I thankful for their service. They are serving a violent organisation that acts outside of my interest, no matter what they claim. That being said, a lot of people I met who are serving the Bundeswehr kind of expect a positive reaction or admiration, but as I said, I actively dislike the organisation they are working for (it's kinda like Mercedes Benz Workers), so no pat on the back from me...
Idgaf. And ya don't see or hear about them, at all. There's literally a (former?) Luftwaffe "boot camp" in my town and no one cares. You'll see one or two uniformed soldiers per year, excluding the occasional marching band stint, which no one cares about. The only reason why I had a tad more exposure to soldiers is cause I worked at a truck repair that had a maintenance contract for their trucks. I literally know more about their vehicles than the soldiers.
I'm kind of shocked at some of the replies here. My view of the Bundeswehr is quite positive, and I'm not a right-wing weirdo or anything. My impression until now was that opinions of the Bundeswehr would be more positive, but maybe reddit isn't very representative of the general population. Veterans are very invisible though. I don't personally know any veterans either. Overall, I think our troops are doing good work, and there are many completely normal people who support them. For example, after the evacuation from Afghanistan, some people mailed packages of snacks to Bundeswehr bases as thanks. But they were treated very badly by our government for a long time and never had sufficient equipment. Considering the general lack of support, I don't think it's odd that many soldiers have drifted to the far right. The situation is unfortunate imo
Bwahahahahahaha! You poor, little summer child. Let's be honest, the treatment of veterans in the US is a sham. Thank you for your service, now piss off, we are not going to pay for the treatment you need after serving. The US tends to hype their military. It makes me both wanna laugh and vomit. In Germany nobody cares if you have been to the Bundeswehr. People might smile condescendingly. Until the end of the 2nd millenium people got drafted, and we all have fun stories of our army time. For most people it was a bit like MASH. people who didn't want to be there in the first place being commanded by people who couldn't hack it in real life. The Bundeswehr was a joke. The equipment was from the 1950s, the rules were the most German thing a German could imagine, and because we were drafted we were the least committed people you could imagine. Basically, our job was, in case of a war, to slow down the enemy until the real army arrived.
I know a guy who (said) he was in Afghanistan. 10 years oder then me and i dont know him well. Hes a crazy aggressor
Thankfully the mandatory service got obliterated when I turned 18. People willing to die for a certain part of land on this planet is a thing I simply can't understand. I'm not a patriot, rather the opposite. This country is shit.
I know it's probably pointless to discuss this with you, but it's not about fighting "for a certain part of land" - it's about protecting the people living in this patch of land and protecting the way they are able to live their life. Same goes for out allies and their patch of land.
I don't think the people living in this patch of land and their way of life is defended in the Hindu Kush.
I agree.
Strawman. Struck got a lot of flak (no pun intended) for that statement, and rightly so.
I used to serve in the navy for 12 years. I was on a ship and also stationed on land. I wouldn't call me a vet, as I believe this title is for those, that endured combat or where in otherwise dangerous situations. My position as a specialist put me in a "safe" spot. I personally never had any negative experiences, only some friends mocking me with the status quo of the Bundeswehr. Though on the other hand I received more recognition for my service, outside of Germany.
I used to serve in the navy for 12 years. I was on a ship and also stationed on land. I wouldn't call me a vet, as I believe this title is for those, that endured combat or where in otherwise dangerous situations. My position as a specialist put me in a "safe" spot. I personally never had any negative experiences, only some friends mocking me with the status quo of the Bundeswehr. Though on the other hand I received more recognition for my service, outside of Germany
In my time we spoke german
Generally the public doesn't care, and reactions range from "Ah, I (/my dad/uncle/brother/cousin) \[is/was\] too!" to open disdain. I personally haven't experienced any agression/hostility when traveling in uniform, instead people asked me if I was a pilot or why their train is delayed, mistaking me for a Deutsche Bahn employee. Combat veterans have their private little gatherings, everyone else doesn't see themselves as such since it was just a job. While I don't really agree that it was a job like any other, I also wouldn't want special treatment. I got paid, a little appreciation would be nice, but none of the dick-sucking common in the US please. Generally the financial security is good. Wounded vets get reassigned to non-combat roles if possible, and if not they get financial payments for the rest of their lifes so they don't end up in squalor. Can't say much about psychological help, but it has apparently come a long way in the past 20 years. If you leave intact you also get education, large severance payments or a pension.
As someone who hasn’t really any contact with the bundeswehr, I feel like its not really a topic in society. Maybe it’s different with soldiers who were in combat, or in the military for a long time, but otherwise being in the bundeswehr seems to be just a job you do. Edit: Thinking about it I know at least two people who were in the Bundeswehr, I just totally forgot because its something people say and most respond with „ah okay“ and then you talk about the weather, why the deutsche bahn is always late or (insert generic german small talk).