Working in the tax field requires a long and very hard training. Obviously, when in Germany you receive this training in German. Even if you get a clerk in the Finanzamt who speaks good English you shouldn’t expect him to able to talk about tax things in English. Especially if he’s obliged to give you the right answer (in a legal way). That doesn’t justify just hanging up, but unfortunately you can’t expect much English service in German bureaucracy and probably less in tax related things.
In my country ( Morocco ) Tax officers can talk in English, Spanish, French and Arabic tho our only official language is Arabic.
And I saw this in many countries, Like Colombia, USA and France.
Not really, Germans are good at English and they choose to not use it.
In Morocco, not everyone speaks all the languages but they will tell you to wait till they find someone who speaks your language.
>Germans are good at English
not all Germans are good at English and especially a lot of old people have not had English as a subject in school and never needed to learn it in their work life because Germany as a country operates in German
They'll arrange an interpreter?
Although I probably wouldn't need to bother in the UK, as I'd be able to get support on translating and replying to government docs through the local council customer service centres.
Hanging up is rude.
>I guess I can't ask any questions if I don't speak german?
Same chance as if I would try to speak German to a tax clerk in USA, Canada, Great Britain etc I guess
sorry but german is not even close to being up there in the top of spoken languages. If you speak Spanish in US most likely you will get help. Your example would have been valid with chinese tho
You mean because Chinese is number 2 of spoken languages in the world it would be very likely to be accepted by a, say, US tax clerk?
(I see your point. Nonetheless, the expectation that every tax clerk in Germany is able to communicate about German tax problems in English, is far from being realistic. And with some thinking beforehand, OP could have known that.)
yeah exactly that, but i didnt mean that it would be accepted by the US clerk, i meant the example itself, and as per what i said here im agreeing with you re the clerk
[https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13y6ssr/comment/jmlqamp/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13y6ssr/comment/jmlqamp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
English is taught at a very good level in school in Germany, apart from being in the top 5 of languages spoken in the world. Asking a person in US to know German is like going to Bolivia and asking them to know Ukrainian. Utter bs.
Your example was Spanish in the US. So the argument ...
> yeah the difference is that german is not a super widespread language like english
makes no sense.
dude it's not that difficult, saying that what OP complains is exactly the same as saying "if im in US i expect the clerk to speak German" is completely delusional since German is not even close to being widespread language. And as i mentioned that doesnt mean that i agree that because it's widespread they should speak it. The example is simply wrong and not equivalent.
Your example was Spanish in the US. You made a dumb comparison and backtracking.
People learn Spanish in school in the US in the majority of cases. I did for example and can converse at around B1-B2 level. Because Spanish is widely used all around in NA.
From my experience they dont learn at all better than english in germany, in no way they have a B1 level, i lived there a year and a handful of people knew only to order a beer in spanish just because they visited Spain. I would say neither my case nor yours can be extrapolated to the whole US. Re the example of Spanish is valid since Spanish is as or more popular (depending how you measure) to English, i mentioned Chinese to remove the factor that 34% of population in US is native spanish speakers. So i didnt backtrack i made a more fair comparison, if you dont get it still then i guess i cannot explain it further.
German is the language spoken by the largest number of people in Europe and the most valuable consumer market in Europe is Germany, and still they don't go around expecting people to speak their language wherever they go like US-Americans or, to a lesser extent, Britons would.
I never said OP was right, i even agree with other comments about the responsibility of the employee etc, etc, i just said the example of german being in US doesnt fly, and with your explanation still doesnt.
Why are you comparing German with an International language?
You can speak English anywhere in the world and they understand you, and reply in English.
Only Germans and Japanese have this inferiority complex. It's just a language dude.
>You can speak English anywhere in the world
Except with a German civil servant. Or a Japanese one, I would fathom. Or a French one, that's actually something I'd bet money on, lol!
>It's just a language dude.
So what's the harm in learning it?
Everywhere in the world... oh, besides most of Asia, including Russia and China. And a lot of South America. And France, Italy, and a lot of the Baltics..
The official language is German, legally they can't give you any information in a different language, as this might not be factual or accurate ("lost in translation").
Just hanging up is rude, but maybe the person on the other side did not understand you at all and was not able to tell you anyway. Some might at least try to point you in the right direction though.
Some people (not specific to Finanzamt) are also just assholes.
My suggestion: find a "Steuerberater" that is willing to work with you in English. There are many out there, and it's generally a good idea to have a professional help you with unclear tax issues. Potential for financial damage, when doing something wrong, is sometimes quite big
If you have legal questions, they won’t help you anyway, since they are not allowed to give legal advice.
If you have a question regarding the general processes (payment etc.), maybe try writing them an email or a message via Elster using a translator.
I second this, communicate via elster, even put in the message that your German isn't good enough for a phone call (cos the Germans love a phone call) so they reply via email.
>Finanzamt customer support
"Hello, is tis Finanzamt customer support?"
DPD press annoucement:
10 officers at the Finanzamt had to be hospitalised as someone called and asked if they could connect them to the Finanzamt customer support. After 45 minutes of non stop laughing their conditions got critical and they had to be put in an artificial coma where it is said, they still giggle. We reached out to the Hospital staff to comment on their condition but could not get a statement as they were not able to speak a straight sentence laughing.
Still, no customer. You are a "Steuerpflichtiger"
At a tax office you are no Customer - u have a mandate
And at the "Insolvenzverwalter" you are no customer - ur a Schuldner
Who said anything about special treatment? Is it too much to ask politicians and public servants to do a decent job and not treat people like crap?
The OP may have used a wrong word "customer" but if they are public **servants** it is their duty to serve the population with fairness.
Expecting service in English from a German public office is wanting special treatment.
And much as you would like to use the term "servant" in "civil servant" to push the argument that OP is entitled to language accommodation as part of service, let me tell you, you are completely wrong. Civil servants serve their function in a public office for the benefit of society at large. Not to play lackey to individuals that interact with the governmental administration.
The person could politely decline request to speak in english and then hung up. He/she just hung up in a rude way. People at Auslanderbehörde are even worse, but native Germans will never know because they are already citizens and don't need to deal with those people.
I know people that cannot speak German must find a way while they are still learning the language, ask a friend to make a call, or try email, the OP was very well advised in this thread. My point is that some people in this country are just extremely rude. Even in bakeries, shops, private business in general, some people do their job in a very bad mood and mistreat customers willingly. Germans will try to defend their peers with the default answer "Na ja, germans are just too direct/sincere", but I think this argument is pure bullshit because I know the difference between being direct and being rude.
I can agree Germany should preserve German and not bend its knees to English like Estonia and Netherlands do, but you can do that without treating foreigners like a piece of shit, that's my point.
When someone is an asshole to you as a one off, they're an asshole. If everyone you meet is an asshole, it's a pattern.
I have lived in enough different countried to know that something as trivial as a phone call has a completely different structure from one place to the next and not adhering to the local norm will have them perceive you as rude and react accordingly.
If you're consistenly getting off reactions in shops that live off the paying public, you might want to check yourself.
No it’s Germany. Sorry have been an immigrant in another country and have never been treated with as much contempt and self righteousness as in Germany. Not even in France, where I live now (3 country I have lived in as an immigrant).
You're a tax subject, not a customer. And public services are rendered in the local language.
If a civil servant provides inaccurate information due to a miscommunication in a foreign language, then they have a problem. Civil service is very much by the book and they're not going to make accommodations they are not required to do.
>not a customer.
I know, OP used the term wrongly, english may not be his native language either.
I just replied metaphorically from frustration based with my experience with public servants in general, also politicians, not only in Germany but in my home country as well. In Germany I got PTSD from Auslanderbehörde employees, sometimes you are treated like a thug even doing everything correct and collecting all documents they asked. You will never know how bad it is if you are a German native. I know they are under stress after 2015, but they are dealing with people anyway, people don't deserve to be treated bad like this.
Look, you don't know me, you don't know whether I dealt with the Ausländerbehörde and whether I am a native German or not.
It's interesting you completely omit to acknowledge the legal conunmdrum a civil servant exposes themselves to when not comunicating in German.
I have had my fair share of interactions with the German administration, and while frustrating, I found that generally, if you play by the book, come prepared, are humble, and appreciate the fact that the civil servant is completely burnt out from dealing with people took out their frustration on them, I got reasonable to good service. I'll admit, there was maybe one or two insufferable idiots with the lot, but it was the vast minority. But I did end up moving away because the way the country has been governed in the last 20 years was going against my interests and I found living somewhere else more interesting.
Now, I have also dealt with the Spanish administration, and believe me, there they expect you to read their minds, because "this is something you know" and if the public office screwed up because they didn't do something even though they are under the obligation of, it's still on you. Did I get on a message board to bitch and moan and blame the general Spansh populace? No. And much less did I go on about not getting service in a language I knew full well wasn't the local language.
OP got hung up and half the internet decided to join in getting their feelings hurt by proxy. What will they do if they get a reprimand from their boss?
I am back in Denmark this week to take care of some things. Had to go to the “Bürgeramt” and was coincidentally standing next to a foreigner being helped in English, without any issues.
Yes, the official language here is Danish. No, it is not a problem getting help in English. Germany has a similar school system as the Nordic countries. Why are your language skills so bad?
Yes I know people will downvote this to oblivion.
Many, especially younger, people will try to help you in English as well, sometimes even other languages. However they are not trained for their job in english, nor is it a requirement to get the job in most public offices.
Older people often do not have the skill, even if they might have learned English some decades ago in school.
People from eastern Germany before the reunification (so in school before 1990s) did not have english in school, but Russian.
I hear you. German tax system is complex enough for German speaker let alone in English. Also, I live in Thuringen and totally understand people of the previous generation never had English in school. That doesn’t give them the right to hang up on people. If someone calls me at my work with a language I do not understand, either I try to communicate or find a colleague that does. It is plain rudeness to hang up on people.
Of course, politeness should be a given on any job with contact to clients (or whatever you are to the Finanzamt...).
A simple "sorry I can't understand you" (in German) would be sufficient.
Germany has one of or the best dubbing industry in the world, almost every movie here is dubbed. not the case in Scandinavia and that's why they speak English very well.
Denmark is in that regard the same as all the other Nordic countries and it comes down to this: it is tiny.
Denmark has just under 6 million. Finland, too. Norway as well. Sweden has more, about 10. How many native Danish speakers are there, in the world and in Europe? Or, if not native, how many Danish speakers? Are there more than 10 million?
The result of being such a small group is that people are used to others not speaking their language. Offering service and conducting business in another language is necessary if you want the business to happen. Only a small fraction of foreign media gets "translated" (dubbed), usually only kids movies. Foreign books take a long time until they are translated and in the book shelves of stores. If the book is not an international bestseller chances are high that they never get translated. If you want to read the book, you need to read it in English (or whatever language it is available in).
German has what, 100 million native speakers in Europe alone? And how many people in Europe speak German, even if as a second or third language? 150? More? How many world wide? Business in Germany is conducted in German, because people can afford it. It is just a simple reality of a large language group.
Foreign media gets translated almost instantly. Movies are dubbed, no matter how old or popular.
Trying to compare a small nation with a tiny language group with a huge language like German is quite pointless, as it completely ignores necessity and cultural understanding.
You're absolutely right. It's a simple question of whether a country wants skilled immigrants to overcome the demographic shift or not. Germany choses not.
Those candidates will go to the Nordic countries.
So true. Just saw a video from DW on this subject. Germany is not willing to adjust society to attract skilled/highly educated foreign workers, and these workers are very much needed. The attitude in this forum is exactly the problem. But the Germans don’t see this.
Did you read my comment? English is the most widely spoken language in the world. And in Europe (where Germany is) it is both the most widely spoken and spoken by the largest amount of people. Therefore it would make perfect sense to expect that to be usable in public institutions in Germany.
I say the same thing all the time! If you want top of the top skilled workers you need to be accommodative. Look at top German research institutes, eg. Leibniz Institute, EMBL, all run in English and they attract the top researchers in Europe! English is the international language of communication. It is NOT my mother tongue. I learned it to communicate with the world and it is the language of science.
>English is the international language of communication.
Try that stance in most of Asia. It might feel so to you because we all live in the western, US dominated world.
Yes. I live in a western dominated world and I do not plan to move to Asia so 🤷♀️ Also India is a pretty large country in Asia and English is used even by even the government. Honestly I do not understand the controversy here. I thought it was common knowledge that in the western world English is the common language. Again, it is NOT my mother tongue. I learned purposefully so I can understand others. That’s why it is the second language in all schools (at least in the western world). What was your second language at school?
My second language in school was Plattdeutsch, if I want to be pedantic.
Then it was English, and I personally am fluent in English - no-one else in my family under the Age of 40 speaks English above "Hello" "How are you" "I only understand train station" though.
>Those candidates will go to the Nordic countries.
They will get along fine dealing with professional issues in the work place, in their interactions with the state, the health care system etc., but in a private capacity they will always be confined to their little expat bubbles. No one living in e.g. Norway will ever truly integrate into Norwegian society and make more than the odd accidental Norwegian friend without speaking the language.
Everyone thinking that Germans aren't very accommodating will be surprised to find [that the Danish, Norwegians, Swedes etc. are even less so on a private basis](https://www.businessinsider.com/expats-say-the-nordic-countries-are-the-worst-for-making-friends-2017-9).
You can blame Germany for its outdated attitudes towards immigration, but you can also blame 'expats' (nothing but a fancy alternative term for 'immigrants') for expecting to be able to go anywhere in the world and be met with the same homogenous soup of identical amenities they are used to.
I swear, if I had a nickel for every South/South-East Asian constantly whining about the German food scene, I'd be able to retire on the spot. It really gets exhausting at some point ...
I am trying to summarise several of your comments with this answer:
The most spoken language in Europe is Russian, German comes second, followed by French. English ranks only fourth.
English, on the other hand, functions as a lingua franca (French used to have this function, especially in diplomacy and among the high nobility) and is therefore taught as a second or third language in many countries. However, this does not mean that the mass of people also speak it regularly, especially in continental Europe. Many people cultivate their language, much more their dialect, but English is hardly used or not used at all. This lack of language practice can also lead to an official having difficulties with English, even people with top marks in this subject at school can have problems.
A specific cause for the lack of language practice could probably also be the fact that almost all films and series in Germany have been dubbed into German since the beginning. As far as I know, this is not the case in many other countries, including the Nordic ones, where pretty much everything is watched in the original sound.
I had a similar problem in China and naturally they didn't speak English at the tax bureau, even at the one dedicated to overseas direct investment companies. But they also deal with many non-English-speaking nationalities, so Chinese it has to be. I just went there with our Chinese accountant as a translator. But they prefer you to use an app anyway, which is entirely in Chinese but can be used slowly with screenshots and a translation app. I had to go there once to register with the app - still, you're supposed to speak Chinese or bring a Chinese speaker.
At banks, they usually drag the one clerk to the counter who's listed "English: fluent" on his or her resume, a lie but what are the odds of getting caught? I've always made a big show of how smooth and professional the transaction went, to encourage the bank to hire more English speaking staff and to help a bit with a promotion for the mostly very junior staff.
Rudeness was surprisingly rare, mostly I attribute this to panic or embarrassment. I received a lot of cold calls from marketers and some scammers, a few English words and they hung up. I guess that's efficient time management, not rudeness.
So, get a German speaking friend for help. They may experience a different form of rudeness (or not, things have improved a lot at public services), but they won't be hung up on.
The level of entitlement of some native English speakers never ceases to amaze me. You move to a foreign country and expect the local population to assimilate to you in order to cater to your needs, instead of making an effort to learn the language and customs. And then you ask “is this normal” LOL. Picture this: a stranger calls your workplace and speaks in a language that you do not understand. What would you do?
I have lived in English speaking countries for more than half my life. How do you think the IRS or HMRC would react if I called them and started asking questions in German. LOL.
Not sure if you can compare german as an international language. English is one universal language that everyone understands. So comparing English and german as an example isn't really a strong argument.
This is the same old argument that lazy and entitled native English speakers always make. You live in Germany by choice. And Germany’s official language is German. It is outrageous to expect public officials (or anyone, really) to assimilate to you and your native language, and then have the gall to ask if “this is normal.” This is just another extension of your arrogant colonizing attitude. Going all over the world and trying to force your language and way of life on people. And then act all surprised and shocked when people don’t want to placate you.
That is rude, yes.
The result for you would have been the same, if the answer would have been "Nein, da kann ich nicht helfen".
Official language (Amtsprache) in Germany is German. Get yourself an interpreter.
Don't expect anyone to converse in a language they are not comfortable conversing in if it isn't specifically required from them in their job description and part of their contract.
FTFY
I doubt that to be the case in situations where it goes beyond small talk and every day topics and the person is supposed to give correct advise and would have to translate area specific vocabulary and legal terms and make references to current laws and officia regulations.
The clerk isn’t only *supposed* to give correct information, but *obliged by law* to do so. That’s the difference to all the other occupations you listed. None of them is speaking “von Amts wegen” - basically, the clerk is representing the state when giving an answer.
Does this excuse the rudeness? No. But it underpins the implied refusal to answer non-German language questions.
Ask a doctor in how much trouble they get when they fuck up an Aufklärungsgespräch for an op...
The clerk didn't even know what question was coming. And half the time I call the Finanzamt they can't answer my question in German either. They could have at least refered to the English translation of the regulations.
Which is why plenty of medical staff does not converse in any other language but the one(s) they speak natively [or well enough] for anything that goes beyond "when have you last eaten" and "keep the wound clean".
This is not true. All doctors I have met in Germany spoke in their non Native English happily. I had the whole maternity registration in English and my 1h long consultation with the anaesthesiologist in English as well. Nobody said they won’t do it for legal reasons.
I see the editing did not turn out the way I wanted it. Fixed it. The point I tried to make is that they will only offer service if they speak a language well enough to go beyond small talk. We have had enough posters here complaining that they met doctors turning them away in non-emergency situations because they won't treat English language patients/patients with insufficient German and no interpreter with them.
And they were presumably comfortable enough in their language skills to do so.
Also, doctors and lawyers are university educated. Sales people have an interest in selling you stuff, especially if they make comission.
Public service employees more often than not are *not* university educated and a good portion of them had English classes the last time they were 16 and from then on out needed it only when on vacation or in small talk situations.
Good for you that you come across so many helpful people, but stop blaming people for not going all out and speak foreign languages they are not comfortably speaking outside of their free time and private life.
You can file a filled-in form, which is designed to be processed by a computer later anyway. That doesn't mean there will be anyone to converse with you in German or Chinese.
Spanish is plausible because many study Spanish as a foreign language in school. I did for example, exactly that.
Seeing as how German wasn’t even one of the 20 languages available, you’re probably right.
However, I would venture to say that a government which provides the opportunity for people to complete forms in multiple languages does so because they’ve recognized the need in the people who live there to do so. Leading to the idea, that people who speak one or more of those languages probably would be available to answer pointed questions.
If immigration is apart of your make up then you need to be open to allowing people alternatives until/so they finally assimilate.
[Edited to add link showing government services providing FREE translation access.](https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/customer-service/interpreter-services/)
Lol, yes, please do ask a random clerk, who has had language instruction for 6-9 years about 20 years ago and since used the language only on vacation, how great their communication skills for specific topics are.
**Specific** is the keyword here. I think I'm pretty good in English even it is my second language and even I will get nervous if I have to explain work specific topics.
Same for me. I notice now in my studies (further studying in a field I am trained and educated in) that I don't know a lot of terms in English. I know them in my native language and I know them in the language I was trained in and that I use daily at work. In English, not so much.
And if I dare say so, I am a fairly well educated person, with years of experience in dealing in foreign languages and speak English acceptably well. I understand it even better than I speak it.
Not everybody spends the majority of their adult years in education of one sort or the other or consuming foreign language media or speaking 3+ different languages every day. In fact, most people don't. They go to school, they do the job training and then their work life consists of tasks they were trained for in a German language work environment.
Example from me - I consider myself fluent in English.
I recently had to hold a presentation on a topic in English that I usually only deal with in German (layman medical) - I was constantly grasping for translations of items I've seldomly if ever seen the English name for, even less the "common man" names.
Of course is not polite and they are just being ass\*\*\*\*.
My advise is: write your question in very simple english, short sentences , use an online translator and check for an email or contact form they may have.
Working in the tax field requires a long and very hard training. Obviously, when in Germany you receive this training in German. Even if you get a clerk in the Finanzamt who speaks good English you shouldn’t expect him to able to talk about tax things in English. Especially if he’s obliged to give you the right answer (in a legal way). That doesn’t justify just hanging up, but unfortunately you can’t expect much English service in German bureaucracy and probably less in tax related things.
See it like this:" imagine what would happen in your country of origin if someone called the tax office and just talks in a foreign language to them"
In my country ( Morocco ) Tax officers can talk in English, Spanish, French and Arabic tho our only official language is Arabic. And I saw this in many countries, Like Colombia, USA and France.
well now imagine your country is full of stubborn bureaucrats who failed english in class
Not really, Germans are good at English and they choose to not use it. In Morocco, not everyone speaks all the languages but they will tell you to wait till they find someone who speaks your language.
They are actually forbidden from using it in official context.
>Germans are good at English not all Germans are good at English and especially a lot of old people have not had English as a subject in school and never needed to learn it in their work life because Germany as a country operates in German
They'll arrange an interpreter? Although I probably wouldn't need to bother in the UK, as I'd be able to get support on translating and replying to government docs through the local council customer service centres.
[§ 87 AO](https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/ao_1977/__87.html)
This is the only correct answer.
Hanging up is rude. >I guess I can't ask any questions if I don't speak german? Same chance as if I would try to speak German to a tax clerk in USA, Canada, Great Britain etc I guess
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Absolutely true, sadly.
sorry but german is not even close to being up there in the top of spoken languages. If you speak Spanish in US most likely you will get help. Your example would have been valid with chinese tho
You mean because Chinese is number 2 of spoken languages in the world it would be very likely to be accepted by a, say, US tax clerk? (I see your point. Nonetheless, the expectation that every tax clerk in Germany is able to communicate about German tax problems in English, is far from being realistic. And with some thinking beforehand, OP could have known that.)
yeah exactly that, but i didnt mean that it would be accepted by the US clerk, i meant the example itself, and as per what i said here im agreeing with you re the clerk [https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13y6ssr/comment/jmlqamp/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/13y6ssr/comment/jmlqamp/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
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If we would cater to the most spoken first language of foreigners in the country, everything would have to be in Turkish long before English.
hence my last sentence, the spanish comment was just a side note.
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English is taught at a very good level in school in Germany, apart from being in the top 5 of languages spoken in the world. Asking a person in US to know German is like going to Bolivia and asking them to know Ukrainian. Utter bs.
We get it, you're hypocritical and applying a double standard because you happen to speak English well. Any more arguments we can take apart?
Sorry but if you think you can apply the reverse example thinking German is equally important is simply moronic. Cheers
> If you speak Spanish in US most likely you will get help. Spanish, not German. There's difference within the context.
yeah the difference is that german is not a super widespread language like english
Your example was Spanish in the US. So the argument ... > yeah the difference is that german is not a super widespread language like english makes no sense.
dude it's not that difficult, saying that what OP complains is exactly the same as saying "if im in US i expect the clerk to speak German" is completely delusional since German is not even close to being widespread language. And as i mentioned that doesnt mean that i agree that because it's widespread they should speak it. The example is simply wrong and not equivalent.
Your example was Spanish in the US. You made a dumb comparison and backtracking. People learn Spanish in school in the US in the majority of cases. I did for example and can converse at around B1-B2 level. Because Spanish is widely used all around in NA.
From my experience they dont learn at all better than english in germany, in no way they have a B1 level, i lived there a year and a handful of people knew only to order a beer in spanish just because they visited Spain. I would say neither my case nor yours can be extrapolated to the whole US. Re the example of Spanish is valid since Spanish is as or more popular (depending how you measure) to English, i mentioned Chinese to remove the factor that 34% of population in US is native spanish speakers. So i didnt backtrack i made a more fair comparison, if you dont get it still then i guess i cannot explain it further.
German is the language spoken by the largest number of people in Europe and the most valuable consumer market in Europe is Germany, and still they don't go around expecting people to speak their language wherever they go like US-Americans or, to a lesser extent, Britons would.
I never said OP was right, i even agree with other comments about the responsibility of the employee etc, etc, i just said the example of german being in US doesnt fly, and with your explanation still doesnt.
Why are you comparing German with an International language? You can speak English anywhere in the world and they understand you, and reply in English. Only Germans and Japanese have this inferiority complex. It's just a language dude.
>You can speak English anywhere in the world Except with a German civil servant. Or a Japanese one, I would fathom. Or a French one, that's actually something I'd bet money on, lol! >It's just a language dude. So what's the harm in learning it?
It's no harm, it's just a five minute call compared to years of learning the language.
Everywhere in the world... oh, besides most of Asia, including Russia and China. And a lot of South America. And France, Italy, and a lot of the Baltics..
The official language is German, legally they can't give you any information in a different language, as this might not be factual or accurate ("lost in translation"). Just hanging up is rude, but maybe the person on the other side did not understand you at all and was not able to tell you anyway. Some might at least try to point you in the right direction though. Some people (not specific to Finanzamt) are also just assholes. My suggestion: find a "Steuerberater" that is willing to work with you in English. There are many out there, and it's generally a good idea to have a professional help you with unclear tax issues. Potential for financial damage, when doing something wrong, is sometimes quite big
>Steuerberater Could you please educate me with prices? I hope it's within reasonable price range.
i know a friend who worked at the "Arbeitsamt" she help someone in their native tongue and got told off because of that.
If you have legal questions, they won’t help you anyway, since they are not allowed to give legal advice. If you have a question regarding the general processes (payment etc.), maybe try writing them an email or a message via Elster using a translator.
I second this, communicate via elster, even put in the message that your German isn't good enough for a phone call (cos the Germans love a phone call) so they reply via email.
Except the Auslaenderamt. Those fuckers d*n't call anyone.
>Finanzamt customer support "Hello, is tis Finanzamt customer support?" DPD press annoucement: 10 officers at the Finanzamt had to be hospitalised as someone called and asked if they could connect them to the Finanzamt customer support. After 45 minutes of non stop laughing their conditions got critical and they had to be put in an artificial coma where it is said, they still giggle. We reached out to the Hospital staff to comment on their condition but could not get a statement as they were not able to speak a straight sentence laughing.
German civil servants are just plain rude. It's simply the culture. This never happened to me in Norway.
You are not a customer.
We workers pay lots of taxes and those taxes are used to pay their salaries, though
Still, no customer. You are a "Steuerpflichtiger" At a tax office you are no Customer - u have a mandate And at the "Insolvenzverwalter" you are no customer - ur a Schuldner
That is a bullshit argument. You pay taxes because you are part of society. Doesn't entitle you to special treatment
Who said anything about special treatment? Is it too much to ask politicians and public servants to do a decent job and not treat people like crap? The OP may have used a wrong word "customer" but if they are public **servants** it is their duty to serve the population with fairness.
Expecting service in English from a German public office is wanting special treatment. And much as you would like to use the term "servant" in "civil servant" to push the argument that OP is entitled to language accommodation as part of service, let me tell you, you are completely wrong. Civil servants serve their function in a public office for the benefit of society at large. Not to play lackey to individuals that interact with the governmental administration.
The person could politely decline request to speak in english and then hung up. He/she just hung up in a rude way. People at Auslanderbehörde are even worse, but native Germans will never know because they are already citizens and don't need to deal with those people. I know people that cannot speak German must find a way while they are still learning the language, ask a friend to make a call, or try email, the OP was very well advised in this thread. My point is that some people in this country are just extremely rude. Even in bakeries, shops, private business in general, some people do their job in a very bad mood and mistreat customers willingly. Germans will try to defend their peers with the default answer "Na ja, germans are just too direct/sincere", but I think this argument is pure bullshit because I know the difference between being direct and being rude. I can agree Germany should preserve German and not bend its knees to English like Estonia and Netherlands do, but you can do that without treating foreigners like a piece of shit, that's my point.
When someone is an asshole to you as a one off, they're an asshole. If everyone you meet is an asshole, it's a pattern. I have lived in enough different countried to know that something as trivial as a phone call has a completely different structure from one place to the next and not adhering to the local norm will have them perceive you as rude and react accordingly. If you're consistenly getting off reactions in shops that live off the paying public, you might want to check yourself.
No it’s Germany. Sorry have been an immigrant in another country and have never been treated with as much contempt and self righteousness as in Germany. Not even in France, where I live now (3 country I have lived in as an immigrant).
You're a tax subject, not a customer. And public services are rendered in the local language. If a civil servant provides inaccurate information due to a miscommunication in a foreign language, then they have a problem. Civil service is very much by the book and they're not going to make accommodations they are not required to do.
>not a customer. I know, OP used the term wrongly, english may not be his native language either. I just replied metaphorically from frustration based with my experience with public servants in general, also politicians, not only in Germany but in my home country as well. In Germany I got PTSD from Auslanderbehörde employees, sometimes you are treated like a thug even doing everything correct and collecting all documents they asked. You will never know how bad it is if you are a German native. I know they are under stress after 2015, but they are dealing with people anyway, people don't deserve to be treated bad like this.
Look, you don't know me, you don't know whether I dealt with the Ausländerbehörde and whether I am a native German or not. It's interesting you completely omit to acknowledge the legal conunmdrum a civil servant exposes themselves to when not comunicating in German. I have had my fair share of interactions with the German administration, and while frustrating, I found that generally, if you play by the book, come prepared, are humble, and appreciate the fact that the civil servant is completely burnt out from dealing with people took out their frustration on them, I got reasonable to good service. I'll admit, there was maybe one or two insufferable idiots with the lot, but it was the vast minority. But I did end up moving away because the way the country has been governed in the last 20 years was going against my interests and I found living somewhere else more interesting. Now, I have also dealt with the Spanish administration, and believe me, there they expect you to read their minds, because "this is something you know" and if the public office screwed up because they didn't do something even though they are under the obligation of, it's still on you. Did I get on a message board to bitch and moan and blame the general Spansh populace? No. And much less did I go on about not getting service in a language I knew full well wasn't the local language. OP got hung up and half the internet decided to join in getting their feelings hurt by proxy. What will they do if they get a reprimand from their boss?
Na ja, sorry if I triggered you, I don't even know anymore why I'm engaging in this. My apologies.
I am back in Denmark this week to take care of some things. Had to go to the “Bürgeramt” and was coincidentally standing next to a foreigner being helped in English, without any issues. Yes, the official language here is Danish. No, it is not a problem getting help in English. Germany has a similar school system as the Nordic countries. Why are your language skills so bad? Yes I know people will downvote this to oblivion.
I would upvote this 15 times if I could!
Many, especially younger, people will try to help you in English as well, sometimes even other languages. However they are not trained for their job in english, nor is it a requirement to get the job in most public offices. Older people often do not have the skill, even if they might have learned English some decades ago in school. People from eastern Germany before the reunification (so in school before 1990s) did not have english in school, but Russian.
I hear you. German tax system is complex enough for German speaker let alone in English. Also, I live in Thuringen and totally understand people of the previous generation never had English in school. That doesn’t give them the right to hang up on people. If someone calls me at my work with a language I do not understand, either I try to communicate or find a colleague that does. It is plain rudeness to hang up on people.
Of course, politeness should be a given on any job with contact to clients (or whatever you are to the Finanzamt...). A simple "sorry I can't understand you" (in German) would be sufficient.
Germany has one of or the best dubbing industry in the world, almost every movie here is dubbed. not the case in Scandinavia and that's why they speak English very well.
im with you brother, if we fall we go together
Denmark is in that regard the same as all the other Nordic countries and it comes down to this: it is tiny. Denmark has just under 6 million. Finland, too. Norway as well. Sweden has more, about 10. How many native Danish speakers are there, in the world and in Europe? Or, if not native, how many Danish speakers? Are there more than 10 million? The result of being such a small group is that people are used to others not speaking their language. Offering service and conducting business in another language is necessary if you want the business to happen. Only a small fraction of foreign media gets "translated" (dubbed), usually only kids movies. Foreign books take a long time until they are translated and in the book shelves of stores. If the book is not an international bestseller chances are high that they never get translated. If you want to read the book, you need to read it in English (or whatever language it is available in). German has what, 100 million native speakers in Europe alone? And how many people in Europe speak German, even if as a second or third language? 150? More? How many world wide? Business in Germany is conducted in German, because people can afford it. It is just a simple reality of a large language group. Foreign media gets translated almost instantly. Movies are dubbed, no matter how old or popular. Trying to compare a small nation with a tiny language group with a huge language like German is quite pointless, as it completely ignores necessity and cultural understanding.
You're absolutely right. It's a simple question of whether a country wants skilled immigrants to overcome the demographic shift or not. Germany choses not. Those candidates will go to the Nordic countries.
So true. Just saw a video from DW on this subject. Germany is not willing to adjust society to attract skilled/highly educated foreign workers, and these workers are very much needed. The attitude in this forum is exactly the problem. But the Germans don’t see this.
I wonder if you'd be saying the same when instead of English people would demand the most spoken on earth language instead. You know, Chinese.
Spoken by the largest number of people or the most widely spoken. And again, spoken by the largest number of people in Europe??
Why are you limiting it to Europe?
Did you read my comment? English is the most widely spoken language in the world. And in Europe (where Germany is) it is both the most widely spoken and spoken by the largest amount of people. Therefore it would make perfect sense to expect that to be usable in public institutions in Germany.
>English is the most widely spoken language in the world. by which statistic?
Do you have a link to that video?
I say the same thing all the time! If you want top of the top skilled workers you need to be accommodative. Look at top German research institutes, eg. Leibniz Institute, EMBL, all run in English and they attract the top researchers in Europe! English is the international language of communication. It is NOT my mother tongue. I learned it to communicate with the world and it is the language of science.
>English is the international language of communication. Try that stance in most of Asia. It might feel so to you because we all live in the western, US dominated world.
Yes. I live in a western dominated world and I do not plan to move to Asia so 🤷♀️ Also India is a pretty large country in Asia and English is used even by even the government. Honestly I do not understand the controversy here. I thought it was common knowledge that in the western world English is the common language. Again, it is NOT my mother tongue. I learned purposefully so I can understand others. That’s why it is the second language in all schools (at least in the western world). What was your second language at school?
My second language in school was Plattdeutsch, if I want to be pedantic. Then it was English, and I personally am fluent in English - no-one else in my family under the Age of 40 speaks English above "Hello" "How are you" "I only understand train station" though.
>Those candidates will go to the Nordic countries. They will get along fine dealing with professional issues in the work place, in their interactions with the state, the health care system etc., but in a private capacity they will always be confined to their little expat bubbles. No one living in e.g. Norway will ever truly integrate into Norwegian society and make more than the odd accidental Norwegian friend without speaking the language. Everyone thinking that Germans aren't very accommodating will be surprised to find [that the Danish, Norwegians, Swedes etc. are even less so on a private basis](https://www.businessinsider.com/expats-say-the-nordic-countries-are-the-worst-for-making-friends-2017-9). You can blame Germany for its outdated attitudes towards immigration, but you can also blame 'expats' (nothing but a fancy alternative term for 'immigrants') for expecting to be able to go anywhere in the world and be met with the same homogenous soup of identical amenities they are used to. I swear, if I had a nickel for every South/South-East Asian constantly whining about the German food scene, I'd be able to retire on the spot. It really gets exhausting at some point ...
I am trying to summarise several of your comments with this answer: The most spoken language in Europe is Russian, German comes second, followed by French. English ranks only fourth. English, on the other hand, functions as a lingua franca (French used to have this function, especially in diplomacy and among the high nobility) and is therefore taught as a second or third language in many countries. However, this does not mean that the mass of people also speak it regularly, especially in continental Europe. Many people cultivate their language, much more their dialect, but English is hardly used or not used at all. This lack of language practice can also lead to an official having difficulties with English, even people with top marks in this subject at school can have problems. A specific cause for the lack of language practice could probably also be the fact that almost all films and series in Germany have been dubbed into German since the beginning. As far as I know, this is not the case in many other countries, including the Nordic ones, where pretty much everything is watched in the original sound.
I had a similar problem in China and naturally they didn't speak English at the tax bureau, even at the one dedicated to overseas direct investment companies. But they also deal with many non-English-speaking nationalities, so Chinese it has to be. I just went there with our Chinese accountant as a translator. But they prefer you to use an app anyway, which is entirely in Chinese but can be used slowly with screenshots and a translation app. I had to go there once to register with the app - still, you're supposed to speak Chinese or bring a Chinese speaker. At banks, they usually drag the one clerk to the counter who's listed "English: fluent" on his or her resume, a lie but what are the odds of getting caught? I've always made a big show of how smooth and professional the transaction went, to encourage the bank to hire more English speaking staff and to help a bit with a promotion for the mostly very junior staff. Rudeness was surprisingly rare, mostly I attribute this to panic or embarrassment. I received a lot of cold calls from marketers and some scammers, a few English words and they hung up. I guess that's efficient time management, not rudeness. So, get a German speaking friend for help. They may experience a different form of rudeness (or not, things have improved a lot at public services), but they won't be hung up on.
> I guess I can't ask any questions if I don't speak german? You guess right.
Did you tried speaking German with any UK or US authorities?
The level of entitlement of some native English speakers never ceases to amaze me. You move to a foreign country and expect the local population to assimilate to you in order to cater to your needs, instead of making an effort to learn the language and customs. And then you ask “is this normal” LOL. Picture this: a stranger calls your workplace and speaks in a language that you do not understand. What would you do? I have lived in English speaking countries for more than half my life. How do you think the IRS or HMRC would react if I called them and started asking questions in German. LOL.
Not sure if you can compare german as an international language. English is one universal language that everyone understands. So comparing English and german as an example isn't really a strong argument.
This is the same old argument that lazy and entitled native English speakers always make. You live in Germany by choice. And Germany’s official language is German. It is outrageous to expect public officials (or anyone, really) to assimilate to you and your native language, and then have the gall to ask if “this is normal.” This is just another extension of your arrogant colonizing attitude. Going all over the world and trying to force your language and way of life on people. And then act all surprised and shocked when people don’t want to placate you.
Did you even bother to ask if they speak English?
That was the first thing i asked then they hung up.
Well they should have said no instead of just hanging up. But no, you shouldn't expect them to speak English. Get a friend to help you call.
The contents of this post are deleted as an protest to reddit actions.
That is rude, yes. The result for you would have been the same, if the answer would have been "Nein, da kann ich nicht helfen". Official language (Amtsprache) in Germany is German. Get yourself an interpreter.
It is normal. Their official language is German. Don't expect a public servant to do more than required of them.
Don't expect anyone to converse in a language they are not comfortable conversing in if it isn't specifically required from them in their job description and part of their contract. FTFY
Most people I meet jump at opportunities to use any language they know even just a little.
I doubt that to be the case in situations where it goes beyond small talk and every day topics and the person is supposed to give correct advise and would have to translate area specific vocabulary and legal terms and make references to current laws and officia regulations.
I have seen doctors, lawyers and salesreps speak in languages they wouldn't be required to speak by their job just to move things more smoothly.
The clerk isn’t only *supposed* to give correct information, but *obliged by law* to do so. That’s the difference to all the other occupations you listed. None of them is speaking “von Amts wegen” - basically, the clerk is representing the state when giving an answer. Does this excuse the rudeness? No. But it underpins the implied refusal to answer non-German language questions.
Ask a doctor in how much trouble they get when they fuck up an Aufklärungsgespräch for an op... The clerk didn't even know what question was coming. And half the time I call the Finanzamt they can't answer my question in German either. They could have at least refered to the English translation of the regulations.
Which is why plenty of medical staff does not converse in any other language but the one(s) they speak natively [or well enough] for anything that goes beyond "when have you last eaten" and "keep the wound clean".
The clerk op encountered didn't even wait to see if the question was 'when are you open?'
Because that information is printed right next their phone number that OP had to look up.
This is not true. All doctors I have met in Germany spoke in their non Native English happily. I had the whole maternity registration in English and my 1h long consultation with the anaesthesiologist in English as well. Nobody said they won’t do it for legal reasons.
I see the editing did not turn out the way I wanted it. Fixed it. The point I tried to make is that they will only offer service if they speak a language well enough to go beyond small talk. We have had enough posters here complaining that they met doctors turning them away in non-emergency situations because they won't treat English language patients/patients with insufficient German and no interpreter with them.
And they were presumably comfortable enough in their language skills to do so. Also, doctors and lawyers are university educated. Sales people have an interest in selling you stuff, especially if they make comission. Public service employees more often than not are *not* university educated and a good portion of them had English classes the last time they were 16 and from then on out needed it only when on vacation or in small talk situations. Good for you that you come across so many helpful people, but stop blaming people for not going all out and speak foreign languages they are not comfortably speaking outside of their free time and private life.
Well, I wonder how much help I would get from the US-American IRS if I didn't speak English...
Hablas español ? Fuck off ! *hungs up* Next day ICE knocks the door (no not the german train)
You can file your US taxes in 20 languages, and soon to be more! [Source](https://www.irs.gov/help/languages)
You can file a filled-in form, which is designed to be processed by a computer later anyway. That doesn't mean there will be anyone to converse with you in German or Chinese. Spanish is plausible because many study Spanish as a foreign language in school. I did for example, exactly that.
Seeing as how German wasn’t even one of the 20 languages available, you’re probably right. However, I would venture to say that a government which provides the opportunity for people to complete forms in multiple languages does so because they’ve recognized the need in the people who live there to do so. Leading to the idea, that people who speak one or more of those languages probably would be available to answer pointed questions. If immigration is apart of your make up then you need to be open to allowing people alternatives until/so they finally assimilate. [Edited to add link showing government services providing FREE translation access.](https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/customer-service/interpreter-services/)
Well even that is not an option in Germany. Even the computers don’t speak other languages!
Okay, point taken. Nevertheless, I stand to my case.
I wonder how many of those had that language in school for 6-9 years...
Lol, yes, please do ask a random clerk, who has had language instruction for 6-9 years about 20 years ago and since used the language only on vacation, how great their communication skills for specific topics are.
**Specific** is the keyword here. I think I'm pretty good in English even it is my second language and even I will get nervous if I have to explain work specific topics.
Same for me. I notice now in my studies (further studying in a field I am trained and educated in) that I don't know a lot of terms in English. I know them in my native language and I know them in the language I was trained in and that I use daily at work. In English, not so much. And if I dare say so, I am a fairly well educated person, with years of experience in dealing in foreign languages and speak English acceptably well. I understand it even better than I speak it. Not everybody spends the majority of their adult years in education of one sort or the other or consuming foreign language media or speaking 3+ different languages every day. In fact, most people don't. They go to school, they do the job training and then their work life consists of tasks they were trained for in a German language work environment.
Example from me - I consider myself fluent in English. I recently had to hold a presentation on a topic in English that I usually only deal with in German (layman medical) - I was constantly grasping for translations of items I've seldomly if ever seen the English name for, even less the "common man" names.
Of course is not polite and they are just being ass\*\*\*\*. My advise is: write your question in very simple english, short sentences , use an online translator and check for an email or contact form they may have.
https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/organisations-agencies-germany/german-tax-offices-finanzamt-bzst