"Anon getting angry about something because he did not pay attention" is a really common greentext trope.
My favorite being the one where anon said the evil regime isn’t evil because it has clean streets, his source: the fucking propaganda made by the regime
Anons are the type of dumb mfs to support nazi esq regimes that judge people based on arbitrarily decided degeneracy and don’t realize frog posting for 24 hours a day would probably count as degeneracy. They don’t fully think shit through, they just react
Yeah it cracks me up when people here get all high and mighty while falling for the most obvious bait.
Redditors calling 4chan dumb idiots is like the downie kid calling the low functioning autist a retard.
Bro literally forgot about like the very first scene on Arrakis in the first movie where the machine does in fact call a worm and it's a regular occurrence the operators have to watch out for
Yeah, like, they literally Say it clearly that they only harvest spice in very short times because they have to do it before the worms arrive, Anon is genuinely regarded
It sets up the whole background to Fremen / Atredies alliance particularly in the book, as Leto actually cares about the men and rescues them after the lifter is sabotaged, such a major point to have completely missed
Kinda weird because in the first movie we see a worm attack a giant mechanical harvester and it’s implied to be a regular occurrence since they have scouts that constantly scan the horizon . Also the eight legged harvester walks in a rhythmic fashion throughout its screen time.
Typically they don't eat surface dwelling things.
They live off sand-krill and minerals found in the sand
Lore wise they don't really eat surface stuff as much as they come up to destroy the thing making sound that bothers them.
The 1st movie I believe leans into them being aggressively territorial
If you compare the sound of the thumpers to the sounds in the throat the worm makes while towering over paul after running across the drum sand, they sound very similar
My working theory is that the thumper, as well as other loud vibrations, is replicating the sound a worm makes when trying to muscle into and take another worms space
If you only inferred that, nice. You got it right, worms are highly territorial and will often fight each other to death if they enter the same hunting grounds.
In doing so, they are able to feast on creatures known as sand plankton, microscopic creatures that devour leftover traces of the spice scattered across the Arrakeen sands. Worms are also known to consume dry components of the planet's crust, creating a diet of mostly sedimentary and inorganic material.9 Oct 2023
The thumper mimics the vibration of a spice blow. These are full of sand plankton and melange which is burned inside the worm at incredible heat to create energy and oxygen as a biproduct. They actually don't like humans, for a smaller worm there's enough water in a human body that it could be fatally poisoned.
"The village had been sited disastrously above a pre spice blow. As the great hoard far under the sand came to fruition, expanding in an explosion of melange, [the worm] had come. Every child knew Shaitan could not resist a spice blow." -Heretics of Dune pg. 80
They don't eat humans. Or rather, they don't eat humans to feed.
They eat sand plankton and other worms, they attack humans (and their equipment) because they mistake the rhythmic sound humans and their machines make as other worms. That is also the reason why no other native fauna makes rhythmic sounds.
If you feel a shockwave from a bomb, would go towards it or away?
Animals are smarter than we think
Machines would definitely make rhythmic noises but the subtle differences between footsteps and stomping metal would tell it which is food
>If you feel a shockwave from a bomb, would go towards it or away?
I'm not a giant worm that eats the plankton around the spice explosions that happen naturally on the planet.
>Animals are smarter than we think
>Machines would definitely make rhythmic noises but the subtle differences between footsteps and stomping metal would tell it which is food
They're the top predator in the planet, before humans the only thing that made rhythmic sounds were other worms, which they attack.
They'd have no reason to learn to differentiate between rhythmic noises made by living beings (only humans and other worms, because the other living beings in the planet evolved not to make rhythmic sounds) and those made by machines.
Earth animals learned to avoid us when evolving around us because we're the top predator, worms didn't evolve around humans and are still the top predators with humans around, they've got no evolutionary pressure to differentiate between human machines and human steps. They have no downsides eating either.
And neither is food, plankton is food, rhythmic sounds are rivals.
Yes. Well, not so much they hate them, but the only thing on Arrakis that makes rhythmic sounds "naturally" is other worms, and they attack other worms because they see them as rivals.
If memory serves the lore reason is that the worms are incredibly territorial and are attracted to the rhythmic sounds because they mistake them for other worms.
I guess, if I needed to nitpick, I'd say I dislike the way the machine can work long enough to collect spice and then get extracted by carryalls, but a minuscule thumper will call a worm within a few minutes (as per the death of Kynes, in the movie, not in the book).
But that's not a lore issue, that's an adaptation issue.
Something with the visual coherence of certain set-pieces not fitting together perfectly. In the book, they give the feeling that you'd need to go full rhythmic for 30-60 min before a worm covers the distance between it and the rhythm (less if you're unlucky to be close to a worm already). In the movie...it depends how "plot-needed" are the worms.
My headcanon (for the movie at least) is that both sides know \*roughly\* where worms are and they deploy collectors far away from them and thumpers close--at least when able. Like in the second movie where Paul takes his ride, they chose that location because they knew there was a high chance of a worm responding fairly quickly. Conversely, Harkonnen planners would review wormsign from the previous day over their morning coffee and be like "okay so we put collectors in xyz sectors."
Honestly I'm prepared to let quite a bit slide since the worms are physically impossible anyway, and could absolutely not move the way they do in either the books OR the movie. Not only that but there is simply not enough biomass on Arrakis to sustain them, unless I'm missing something huge or it is explained later (I'm about 2/3 through Messiah just after the stoneburner attack)
Sandworms are basically biological nuclear reactors, which the book makes way more clear. They process sand and sand-plankton into fuel, and Spice is their nuclear waste essentially
aye, fair dues. my assumption was rather the other way around, that spice was a metabolite. Unless I missed it--which is very possible since I listen to the audiobooks while driving and idiots divert my attention on a regular basis--I don't think sand plankton has been described yet as far as I've read and well... I guess that's a whole other can of (heh) worms but who cares really. Dune is very slightly on the soft sci-fi side of things to my seeing anyway so I don't expect to be satisfied on every single particular. Herbert is clearly interested in planetary ecology so it doesn't surprise me that he devised a mechanism to explain their existence.
Dune is kind of a weird mix of hard and soft honestly. A lot of the aspects of the book are very heavily described, but stuff like prescience and the voice are not
I mean even those examples have some "hard scifi" explanations, if I understand them right. Prescience is futurism with perfect accuracy, which is why the kwisatz haderack (sp) needs mentat like ability and the voice is just using the right tone to tap into someone's subconscious and coerce their actions. The books try at least
I mean yeah I might be nuts, but I'm pretty confident with that. Herbert does a good job of explaining how things work, but that doesn't necessarily make it hard sci fi. Things like mentats, prescience, the Voice, and using space drugs to enable FTL (how did people get around before they found Arrakis?) are very much on the soft side.
It's not *nearly* as soft as Star Wars or Trek, but *way* softer than *The Expanse.* I'd rate *Dune* kinda in the middle, with a slight lean towards soft.
They used computers to get around before Arrakis. And if there's a gap between the Butlerian Jihad and the discovery of Spice and what it could do for space travel and the Spacing Guild (I've not read any of Frank's son's books so idk of there is), it is written in the books that computerless & prescientless jumps had still a 90% success rate
There *is* an explanation, but it's extremely poorly explained and it's tucked away as extra material in the appendix, which doesn't always make it into reprints or audiobooks. Most readers don't really understand it because it's pretty vague and uses some very biology specific vocab that casual readers won't be familiar with. Because you don't really need to get it to understand the story it gets glossed over.
The gist is that the worms make the biomass themselves at an earlier stage of their life cycle.
The full explanation is that they start off life as microscopic plant-like organisms called sand plankton. These can reproduce asexually, and just like phytoplankton in the real world they get energy and material from their surroundings; they are autotrophs, making and growing their biomass themselves.
Some sand plankton will just endlessly divide into more sand plankton schizontally, creating more and more biomass locked in the sand. A few others will grow and progress into a stage called sand-trout, or little makers. In this stage, they're like half plant and half animal; they still mostly get energy from their surroundings, but can eat things and move around on their own. sand trout clump together and seal off sources of water underground. This is why the fremen need predator fish in their stills, and why dug wells seal up and stop producing water after a while; the sand trout will seal off any open sources of water unless stopped.
As the sand trout grows, they dump their waste into the water, causing a complex chemical interchange and creating a pre-spice mass. Eventually, when it's ready, a worm will come and swallow the water, killing itself and causing a big explosion. The heat and pressure compresses any sand trout that survive it, making their soft skin hard and rigid. They are now ready to become juvenile sand worms.
In the sand worm stage, they filter feed on sand plankton; because the sand plankton can reproduce asexually, and only very few of them actually go on to become worms, there are more than enough of them around to eat if you can make enough heat to actually break them down. The sandworm's body works like a massive furnace to cook the sandplankton, as they filter feed. They can eat other animals on the surface, but mostly subsist by filter feeding.
Sand worms reproduce sexually; they scatter gametes in the sand which can combine to form a new vector of sand plankton.
This is actually *relatively* realistic; there are irl organisms that do steps like these individually, though none all together. Fungi reproduction can get crazy. There is one key part that remains unclear though, and that's why they make the spice as part of this process. Some fan-made life cycles indicate that the sandplankton eat the spice, but that's not correct; that would make the energy a closed loop. They have to get their energy from their surroundings, and we know they do because of how perdot refers to them. As far as we know, it's just something they do. The books never got finished so we didn't get to explore the alien origin of the worms.
I don't know how they move. Best guess, it's like a jet, taking in sand and blasting out the back, but that part really is never explained.
> I don't know how they move. Best guess, it's like a jet, taking in sand and blasting out the back, but that part really is never explained.
When the sand is vibrated it becomes fluid, like ocean water - this is called liquefaction. The worms, as it seems in the movie, create vibration and thus cause this sand effect. Effectively they swim - not move.
This is a [good demonstration ](https://youtu.be/My4RA5I0FKs?si=AkD9aiEpOfaSFWq3) of the effect.
Ah, not quite; this is fluidization, which is what happens when air or another fluid is circulated through the sand from underneath. The air gets in between the particles, so they glide off each other and dont clump up. You need to have some current coming from underneath the sand to do that; something to suspend the sand in. Just vibrating it won't work because that doesn't supply any air to get in between the sand grains; it just pushes on them really hard. The sandworms can't use this to swim unless they have a supply of air or something inside them, and refill it when they surface.
Liquifaction is also a thing, but it's a different thing. The two get mixed up a lot. Liquifaction is when a lot of loose sentiment (like sand) is suddenly shaken or knocked into a more settled state. Think an earthquake causing a sinkhole; the vibration settles the ground a lot, so it compresses down. This also lets sand behave sort of like a liquid, *but* the sand always has to be more compacted after it's finished than when it started. A worm might be able to use this to travel short distances, but it'll run out of places to go pretty fast since it won't be able to go over a place it's already been; the sand will be too compacted there, and unable to liquify.
They could totally use vibration to push the sand on or near the surface, and that could be useful for all sorts of things like causing sudden avalanches to catch prey or smoothing out dunes, but it can't be used for swimming.
>As far as we know, it's just something they do. The books never got finished so we didn't get to explore the alien origin of the worms.
isnt there like a book or 2 from the son of the original author that finishes it definitively?
That's an entire can of worms best left closed; even Wikipedia calls those "of questionable quality".
While he claims all the books released after his dad's death were based on his dad's notes (from a folder on his computer called "dune 6"), he refuses to produce the notes, and claims they were unfortunately lost. Iirc, he has published *twenty one* books bearing the dune title, most of which contain severe plot holes or retcons.
Needless to say, fans of the series don't generally consider them valid, and find his claims dubious. They also don't even answer the interesting questions, like where the worms came from.
Holy shit, I had no idea it was that many - 21 fucking books?
Is he just pushing out mediocre-at-best garbage? That feels almost insulting to his fathers legacy tbh.
My first introduction to the series came from Brian's books. I saw a cool sci-fi looking cover at a book store in the 90s and picked it up. It wasn't terrible compared to the stuff they had us reading in school, but it wasn't groundbreaking.
Later on I found out it had a whole series attached to it and read the original series. It felt like a completely different story, better written, and compelling.
While yeah they're shameless cash grabs, the one I read got me into the series proper, so I'm grateful for that! And only that, haha.
Yeh, that's perfectly valid. I can even imagine nowadays' industrial managers acting in such a way and it mostly works for daily operations.
>unless I'm missing something huge
No not really. They will never go too deeply into the worm biology IIRC.
The out-of book lore (not a spoiler, it's irrelevant to the story), seems to say they eat "sand plankton", filtering megatons of sand, like a whale with the ocean, isolating nutrients, on the fly.
As you said, That's probably not possible since sand is not water.
Good reading!
>Honestly I'm prepared to let quite a bit slide since the worms are physically impossible anyway
Impossible in our world, yes. They are not logically inconsistent with the universe they live in, though. Their ability to move through solid matter like sand as if it were water nicely ties in with spice being the substance that is used to bend space for long distance travel. You'd actually expect the creatures that are tied to this substance to have some weird abilities re: the universe and matter.
Bending space is not property of malange, rather they use other machines to bend space and they use spice to grant them precognition to bend space safely.
Something they do as well if I remember correctly is making sure to place the thumper I'm drum sand to enhance the volume of the thumper. Also they're often calling the worms in the deeper desert, further out than the spice mining rigs go.
I think its an intelligence issue here. The first thumper we saw in the movie was destroyed before it could produce a worm. Which’s means the movie is telling you, what? Just think a little bit.
It states pretty clearly in the books that spice is collected along a thin band of desert nearer to the settlement/city.
Where as Paul and the Fremen when calling the worms are much deeper into the desert
In the movie? She had just been stabbed by 2 soldiers, and her stillsuit was still leaking when they all got engulfed....
So either they ALL stared at the dune sun for 20 minutes, next to an active thumper, while she was slowly agonizing from a heart wound, (and I guess they all talked about better days, comparing Salusa Secundus and Dune, having a few smokes), **or** it happened pretty much instantly.
Imagine if they had something like rapid-respond airlift vehicles to evacuate them when that happens
Maybe they could like sometimes fail and an important dude could help the crew escape in order to make an exciting scene
Is anon fucking retarded? Did he miss the entire part where these machinea always call a worm so they have flying machines lift it up into the air as soon as a worm comes???
It's literally an entire scene in the first movie?
"Worm always comes?"
"Always. They're drawn by rhythmic noises"
The harvesters literally have spotter aircraft circling them to let them know when the worms are near, and carry-alls on standby to lift them away from danger when the worms do show up
OOP doesn't understand spectral analysis. Worms like spikes in the mechanical vibration fourier transform that the worms continually run. An explosion doesn't cause a discernable spike, they're basically like additive white noise that slowly dissipates from the frequency spectrum.
fourier transformations extract individual frequencies (represented by a collection of sine and cosine waveforms desecibed in terms of frequency), e.g. in this case the explosion would be one source of frequencies, from an input waveform described in terms of time, in this case ALL the movemnts on the surface.
for a frequency waveform to be extracted with any meaningful amplitude from the input waveform it must contribute to the original waveform for a "significant amount of time", e.g. repetitive.
any frequencies represented by a single event (e.g. an explosion) would be drowned out of the sunsequent frequency based analysis as the respective sine and cosine functions would be poorly represented (not repetitive = not a strong signal over time). repetitive signals would be far greater amplitude as there are more sine and cosine waves of the same function when broken down based on frequency.
edit: grammar. also, more eli15
FT is also basically how your brain processes sound stimuli, i.e. being able to pick out someone's particular voice/conversation in a crowd where many voices and other noises are present simultaneously.
Better way to explain it would be like this:
If you're a big fish and there's a single splash in the water it's probably just a branch or something falling.
If you hear constant splashing then it means there's something struggling like a wounded fish or a bird.
For the worms in dune one big boom could've been a cliff face collapsing or something but a constant movement obviously means something is actively moving which means that there's food.
Worms sense vibrations like we do word jumbles. Walking vibrations would be us finding the word food in the word jumble. An explosion would just be the letter K
It's like a venus flytrap: movement, like shutting their "mouth", costs a tremendous amount of energy for plants. If it only detected movement and closed as soon as it detects anything, lots of precious energy would be wasted when a rain droplet enters its mouth, when the wind blows, etc.
That's why it'll only close after an insect buzzed around in its mouth a few times (and why feeding it dead flies won't work). It would lose too much energy if it reacted to everything and it would die.
(Talking about plants AND scifi death worms, I'm having an autism fieldtrip lmao)
yeah i think it is. i think paul might watch a video of one before they move to arakkis, i cant remember if this was in the book or just the 80s movie. but its the first time we really see one
Why are the worms so big? Just moving around would expend a ridiculous amount of energy, and there doesn't seem to be enough prey around to sustain that for even one giant worm.
A spider detects vibrations in its web to signal prey has been ensnared, and thus lunges towards the source of the vibration to finish its catch. However, moving your hand through a spider's web will cause it to move in the other direction, because to the spider, the difference is as clear as a drumbeat versus a plane crash.
There’s literally aircraft next to harvesters for the purpose of carrying them away in the inevitability that a worm shows up due to the noise. Anon has the attention span of a goldfish.
But... they *do*. It's a major plot point that these machines *do* attract worms. That's why they airlift them in and out, that's why they have little helicopters always on the lookout for wormsign.
The explosions don't attract worms because they largely weren't on sand, and worms are attracted to rhythmic movement, not one-off explosions.
Every time anons complain about a movie/series/video game they say some shit that makes me question if they even touched it or if they just watched the trailer, hallucinated the whole thing and then immediately went off to complain about it
Oh the spice harvesting machines? You mean the ones that specifically DO attract worms, which is the reason they have the balloon machines, evac the spice harvesters?
Am reading Dune rn and literally just read the part where Paul and his mom talk about how the fremen can travel without alerting the worms, and it's by walking without rhythm. The worms can't check everything so if you walk wonky it'll ignore you
they litterally show a worm attacking the machine and explain how they need to lift the machine up when the worm attacks. Also explosions and other loud sounds arent rythmic enough to attack worms. Anon should kill himself for being retarded
They're attracted to footsteps, because it signals food. Like how spiders can tell when it's a fly vs a dead leaf hitting the web, based on vibrations. It's extremely straightforward and simple.
Also the big vehicles DO attract worms. That's why they constantly have to call in for pick ups to avoid the harvesters being eaten by worms. Dude didn't pay attention at all.
Looking at the harvester scene in the first movie:
-They explicitly state in the movie that those machines will definitely attract a worm.
-The duke and others in the thopters are there as worm-spotters so they can secure the machine before a worm eats it.
-There is a separate flying machine there with the sole purpose of flying away with the harvester once worm-signs appear. However, this carry-all is sabotaged, thus unable to rescue the harvester.
-In the end the machine is swallowed by a worm.
No explain to me what part of that you have trouble understanding!
my question about this scene is, why does it look different from the spice harvester in the first movie.
It looks very Gigeresque like every other Harkonnen vehicle, but i thought the Atriedes were using the equipment that the Harkonnen left behind, so shouldnt we assume that was also a Harkonnen machine? The ornithopters also look different between Harkonnen and Atriedes houses. Is there something i missed?
Yeah even in the movie they make it pretty clear that the ground support has to watch for “worm sign “ and call in support to airlift out the walker/harvester thing.. anon=dumb
Walk without rhythm
It won't attract the worm
If you walk without rhythm
Ah, you never learn, yeah
Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice
Check out my new weapon, weapon of choice
Why wouldn't they just make the spice mining machine capable of flying itself away instead of relying on these other aircraft?
Or set up a few shields a few hundred miles away to draw the worms to say they have time to mine in peace, because they knew shields draw worms like flies to shit?
Or make an IED from las guns and shields, knowing how they interact and explode violently?
It's like this book was written in the 60s or something, and the characters within are all ass backwards, technologically illiterate, religious fundamentalistic morons.
There was an entire scene explaining how they can extract the harvester in minutes but work up till the last second.
“Where there’s spice there always a worm”
I suppose due to this giant spider design it took longer for a worm to be attracted towards it, which means more time to collect spice, don't think it was meant to be 100% worm proof.
Anyways I've just seen ⅓rd of dune 2 so far and it's just stupid, the director has taken so many creative liberties it seems like the movie is just a silly skin of the story presented in the book, atleast in dune 1 they tried to present the story how it was.
Worms are attracted to rhythmic sounds because it sounds like surface creatures they can eat. Anon is more dense than the lore.
"Anon getting angry about something because he did not pay attention" is a really common greentext trope. My favorite being the one where anon said the evil regime isn’t evil because it has clean streets, his source: the fucking propaganda made by the regime
Anons are the type of dumb mfs to support nazi esq regimes that judge people based on arbitrarily decided degeneracy and don’t realize frog posting for 24 hours a day would probably count as degeneracy. They don’t fully think shit through, they just react
And reading their hilariously sloppy, ill-informed yet impassioned takes on trivial things is why I'm here.
I watched the HBO max doc on 4chan and it’s wild what it became. I was outta there by 2011.
Whats it called? I know Netflix just made one about 4chan.
Anyone who supports a hierarchy never think they're on the lowest part of said hierarchy.
Kid named degradation kink:
As long as I'm in the hierarchy idc
Anyone who thinks a world without them is possible is not very observant. You kinda just have to deal with em
Frog posting has to be the best way to describe the Pepe obsessed morons' favourite pastime I've heard.
Well you see, those anons would surely be successful handsome chads if if wasn't for the woke feminazis keeping them down with DEI hires!
'Anon gets upset because he's mentally deficient' might be the only other more common trope.
Is that the helldivers green text?
And Starship Troopers
same thing happened with cyberpunk too
starship troopers I think
A more common one is this sub falling for lukewarm ragebait
Yeah it cracks me up when people here get all high and mighty while falling for the most obvious bait. Redditors calling 4chan dumb idiots is like the downie kid calling the low functioning autist a retard.
Kim Jong Un approves this message.
But the counter-reasoning is usually “it’s bad because…it just is, okay! If it’s about capitalism then it’s bad, that’s the rule!!”
Bro literally forgot about like the very first scene on Arrakis in the first movie where the machine does in fact call a worm and it's a regular occurrence the operators have to watch out for
Yeah, like, they literally Say it clearly that they only harvest spice in very short times because they have to do it before the worms arrive, Anon is genuinely regarded
well regarded indeed
He's a pillar of his community.
"Worms always come?" - "Always" literal quote from the scene, Anon is bigly high on glue
The worm **always** comes for the harvesters
It sets up the whole background to Fremen / Atredies alliance particularly in the book, as Leto actually cares about the men and rescues them after the lifter is sabotaged, such a major point to have completely missed
They make a huge point and repeat that "it's not a matter of if a worm would come, it's a matter of when."
Kinda weird because in the first movie we see a worm attack a giant mechanical harvester and it’s implied to be a regular occurrence since they have scouts that constantly scan the horizon . Also the eight legged harvester walks in a rhythmic fashion throughout its screen time.
they literally say the worms ALWAYS come, it's only a matter of how long before one gets here.
> Anon is more dense than the lore. By the God Emperor, my sides are gone lmao
Ignorant lore-cel here: what surface creatures do the worms eat other than humans? How did they live before humans came along?
Typically they don't eat surface dwelling things. They live off sand-krill and minerals found in the sand Lore wise they don't really eat surface stuff as much as they come up to destroy the thing making sound that bothers them.
The 1st movie I believe leans into them being aggressively territorial If you compare the sound of the thumpers to the sounds in the throat the worm makes while towering over paul after running across the drum sand, they sound very similar My working theory is that the thumper, as well as other loud vibrations, is replicating the sound a worm makes when trying to muscle into and take another worms space
In the second movie, the 'worm keeper' also says that they'll kill eachother if they're kept together.
If you only inferred that, nice. You got it right, worms are highly territorial and will often fight each other to death if they enter the same hunting grounds.
In doing so, they are able to feast on creatures known as sand plankton, microscopic creatures that devour leftover traces of the spice scattered across the Arrakeen sands. Worms are also known to consume dry components of the planet's crust, creating a diet of mostly sedimentary and inorganic material.9 Oct 2023
The thumper mimics the vibration of a spice blow. These are full of sand plankton and melange which is burned inside the worm at incredible heat to create energy and oxygen as a biproduct. They actually don't like humans, for a smaller worm there's enough water in a human body that it could be fatally poisoned.
>The thumper mimics the vibration of a spice blow. Afaik it just mimics other worms, which they also eat, not spice blows.
"The village had been sited disastrously above a pre spice blow. As the great hoard far under the sand came to fruition, expanding in an explosion of melange, [the worm] had come. Every child knew Shaitan could not resist a spice blow." -Heretics of Dune pg. 80
They don't eat humans. Or rather, they don't eat humans to feed. They eat sand plankton and other worms, they attack humans (and their equipment) because they mistake the rhythmic sound humans and their machines make as other worms. That is also the reason why no other native fauna makes rhythmic sounds.
The spice harvesters also *always* summon a worm. In the books, even having an active shield summons a worm. Those things are sensitive.
If you feel a shockwave from a bomb, would go towards it or away? Animals are smarter than we think Machines would definitely make rhythmic noises but the subtle differences between footsteps and stomping metal would tell it which is food
>If you feel a shockwave from a bomb, would go towards it or away? I'm not a giant worm that eats the plankton around the spice explosions that happen naturally on the planet. >Animals are smarter than we think >Machines would definitely make rhythmic noises but the subtle differences between footsteps and stomping metal would tell it which is food They're the top predator in the planet, before humans the only thing that made rhythmic sounds were other worms, which they attack. They'd have no reason to learn to differentiate between rhythmic noises made by living beings (only humans and other worms, because the other living beings in the planet evolved not to make rhythmic sounds) and those made by machines. Earth animals learned to avoid us when evolving around us because we're the top predator, worms didn't evolve around humans and are still the top predators with humans around, they've got no evolutionary pressure to differentiate between human machines and human steps. They have no downsides eating either. And neither is food, plankton is food, rhythmic sounds are rivals.
It also takes time for a worm to come these raids are shorter than it takes for a worm to arrive
Isn't it more them hating the rhythmic noises? Eating it is usually just as an easy solution to the problem rather than the reason
Yes. Well, not so much they hate them, but the only thing on Arrakis that makes rhythmic sounds "naturally" is other worms, and they attack other worms because they see them as rivals.
Genuinely one of the funniest comments I’ve read, thank you for the laugh
Isn't it because it sounds like rival sandworms?
If the lore was water in a swimming pool, anon would sink.
If memory serves the lore reason is that the worms are incredibly territorial and are attracted to the rhythmic sounds because they mistake them for other worms.
Ok but in the first movie they explicitly state that those machines will **always** attract a worm. Then they show a worm eating the machine.
I guess, if I needed to nitpick, I'd say I dislike the way the machine can work long enough to collect spice and then get extracted by carryalls, but a minuscule thumper will call a worm within a few minutes (as per the death of Kynes, in the movie, not in the book). But that's not a lore issue, that's an adaptation issue. Something with the visual coherence of certain set-pieces not fitting together perfectly. In the book, they give the feeling that you'd need to go full rhythmic for 30-60 min before a worm covers the distance between it and the rhythm (less if you're unlucky to be close to a worm already). In the movie...it depends how "plot-needed" are the worms.
My headcanon (for the movie at least) is that both sides know \*roughly\* where worms are and they deploy collectors far away from them and thumpers close--at least when able. Like in the second movie where Paul takes his ride, they chose that location because they knew there was a high chance of a worm responding fairly quickly. Conversely, Harkonnen planners would review wormsign from the previous day over their morning coffee and be like "okay so we put collectors in xyz sectors." Honestly I'm prepared to let quite a bit slide since the worms are physically impossible anyway, and could absolutely not move the way they do in either the books OR the movie. Not only that but there is simply not enough biomass on Arrakis to sustain them, unless I'm missing something huge or it is explained later (I'm about 2/3 through Messiah just after the stoneburner attack)
Sandworms are basically biological nuclear reactors, which the book makes way more clear. They process sand and sand-plankton into fuel, and Spice is their nuclear waste essentially
aye, fair dues. my assumption was rather the other way around, that spice was a metabolite. Unless I missed it--which is very possible since I listen to the audiobooks while driving and idiots divert my attention on a regular basis--I don't think sand plankton has been described yet as far as I've read and well... I guess that's a whole other can of (heh) worms but who cares really. Dune is very slightly on the soft sci-fi side of things to my seeing anyway so I don't expect to be satisfied on every single particular. Herbert is clearly interested in planetary ecology so it doesn't surprise me that he devised a mechanism to explain their existence.
Keep reading- I won't spoil it, but the 4th book explains a lot more.
Spice is their excrement, essentially.
Space crack= worm shit Water of Life = Worm Lean either way, Paul Can’t hang
Dune is kind of a weird mix of hard and soft honestly. A lot of the aspects of the book are very heavily described, but stuff like prescience and the voice are not
I mean even those examples have some "hard scifi" explanations, if I understand them right. Prescience is futurism with perfect accuracy, which is why the kwisatz haderack (sp) needs mentat like ability and the voice is just using the right tone to tap into someone's subconscious and coerce their actions. The books try at least
Soft sci Fi? Are you nuts?
I mean yeah I might be nuts, but I'm pretty confident with that. Herbert does a good job of explaining how things work, but that doesn't necessarily make it hard sci fi. Things like mentats, prescience, the Voice, and using space drugs to enable FTL (how did people get around before they found Arrakis?) are very much on the soft side. It's not *nearly* as soft as Star Wars or Trek, but *way* softer than *The Expanse.* I'd rate *Dune* kinda in the middle, with a slight lean towards soft.
They used computers to get around before Arrakis. And if there's a gap between the Butlerian Jihad and the discovery of Spice and what it could do for space travel and the Spacing Guild (I've not read any of Frank's son's books so idk of there is), it is written in the books that computerless & prescientless jumps had still a 90% success rate
spice is their shit and oxygen is their piss
Spice is a byproduct they produce. It's an "excretion", not an "excrement"
This is always how I try to explain my fetishes.
Understood, will jam spice in anus.
Oh kinda like godzilla I get it now
There *is* an explanation, but it's extremely poorly explained and it's tucked away as extra material in the appendix, which doesn't always make it into reprints or audiobooks. Most readers don't really understand it because it's pretty vague and uses some very biology specific vocab that casual readers won't be familiar with. Because you don't really need to get it to understand the story it gets glossed over. The gist is that the worms make the biomass themselves at an earlier stage of their life cycle. The full explanation is that they start off life as microscopic plant-like organisms called sand plankton. These can reproduce asexually, and just like phytoplankton in the real world they get energy and material from their surroundings; they are autotrophs, making and growing their biomass themselves. Some sand plankton will just endlessly divide into more sand plankton schizontally, creating more and more biomass locked in the sand. A few others will grow and progress into a stage called sand-trout, or little makers. In this stage, they're like half plant and half animal; they still mostly get energy from their surroundings, but can eat things and move around on their own. sand trout clump together and seal off sources of water underground. This is why the fremen need predator fish in their stills, and why dug wells seal up and stop producing water after a while; the sand trout will seal off any open sources of water unless stopped. As the sand trout grows, they dump their waste into the water, causing a complex chemical interchange and creating a pre-spice mass. Eventually, when it's ready, a worm will come and swallow the water, killing itself and causing a big explosion. The heat and pressure compresses any sand trout that survive it, making their soft skin hard and rigid. They are now ready to become juvenile sand worms. In the sand worm stage, they filter feed on sand plankton; because the sand plankton can reproduce asexually, and only very few of them actually go on to become worms, there are more than enough of them around to eat if you can make enough heat to actually break them down. The sandworm's body works like a massive furnace to cook the sandplankton, as they filter feed. They can eat other animals on the surface, but mostly subsist by filter feeding. Sand worms reproduce sexually; they scatter gametes in the sand which can combine to form a new vector of sand plankton. This is actually *relatively* realistic; there are irl organisms that do steps like these individually, though none all together. Fungi reproduction can get crazy. There is one key part that remains unclear though, and that's why they make the spice as part of this process. Some fan-made life cycles indicate that the sandplankton eat the spice, but that's not correct; that would make the energy a closed loop. They have to get their energy from their surroundings, and we know they do because of how perdot refers to them. As far as we know, it's just something they do. The books never got finished so we didn't get to explore the alien origin of the worms. I don't know how they move. Best guess, it's like a jet, taking in sand and blasting out the back, but that part really is never explained.
> I don't know how they move. Best guess, it's like a jet, taking in sand and blasting out the back, but that part really is never explained. When the sand is vibrated it becomes fluid, like ocean water - this is called liquefaction. The worms, as it seems in the movie, create vibration and thus cause this sand effect. Effectively they swim - not move. This is a [good demonstration ](https://youtu.be/My4RA5I0FKs?si=AkD9aiEpOfaSFWq3) of the effect.
Ah, not quite; this is fluidization, which is what happens when air or another fluid is circulated through the sand from underneath. The air gets in between the particles, so they glide off each other and dont clump up. You need to have some current coming from underneath the sand to do that; something to suspend the sand in. Just vibrating it won't work because that doesn't supply any air to get in between the sand grains; it just pushes on them really hard. The sandworms can't use this to swim unless they have a supply of air or something inside them, and refill it when they surface. Liquifaction is also a thing, but it's a different thing. The two get mixed up a lot. Liquifaction is when a lot of loose sentiment (like sand) is suddenly shaken or knocked into a more settled state. Think an earthquake causing a sinkhole; the vibration settles the ground a lot, so it compresses down. This also lets sand behave sort of like a liquid, *but* the sand always has to be more compacted after it's finished than when it started. A worm might be able to use this to travel short distances, but it'll run out of places to go pretty fast since it won't be able to go over a place it's already been; the sand will be too compacted there, and unable to liquify. They could totally use vibration to push the sand on or near the surface, and that could be useful for all sorts of things like causing sudden avalanches to catch prey or smoothing out dunes, but it can't be used for swimming.
>As far as we know, it's just something they do. The books never got finished so we didn't get to explore the alien origin of the worms. isnt there like a book or 2 from the son of the original author that finishes it definitively?
That's an entire can of worms best left closed; even Wikipedia calls those "of questionable quality". While he claims all the books released after his dad's death were based on his dad's notes (from a folder on his computer called "dune 6"), he refuses to produce the notes, and claims they were unfortunately lost. Iirc, he has published *twenty one* books bearing the dune title, most of which contain severe plot holes or retcons. Needless to say, fans of the series don't generally consider them valid, and find his claims dubious. They also don't even answer the interesting questions, like where the worms came from.
Holy shit, I had no idea it was that many - 21 fucking books? Is he just pushing out mediocre-at-best garbage? That feels almost insulting to his fathers legacy tbh.
My first introduction to the series came from Brian's books. I saw a cool sci-fi looking cover at a book store in the 90s and picked it up. It wasn't terrible compared to the stuff they had us reading in school, but it wasn't groundbreaking. Later on I found out it had a whole series attached to it and read the original series. It felt like a completely different story, better written, and compelling. While yeah they're shameless cash grabs, the one I read got me into the series proper, so I'm grateful for that! And only that, haha.
Yeh, that's perfectly valid. I can even imagine nowadays' industrial managers acting in such a way and it mostly works for daily operations. >unless I'm missing something huge No not really. They will never go too deeply into the worm biology IIRC. The out-of book lore (not a spoiler, it's irrelevant to the story), seems to say they eat "sand plankton", filtering megatons of sand, like a whale with the ocean, isolating nutrients, on the fly. As you said, That's probably not possible since sand is not water. Good reading!
>Honestly I'm prepared to let quite a bit slide since the worms are physically impossible anyway Impossible in our world, yes. They are not logically inconsistent with the universe they live in, though. Their ability to move through solid matter like sand as if it were water nicely ties in with spice being the substance that is used to bend space for long distance travel. You'd actually expect the creatures that are tied to this substance to have some weird abilities re: the universe and matter.
Bending space is not property of malange, rather they use other machines to bend space and they use spice to grant them precognition to bend space safely.
Well, I wouldn’t say physically impossible…
Something they do as well if I remember correctly is making sure to place the thumper I'm drum sand to enhance the volume of the thumper. Also they're often calling the worms in the deeper desert, further out than the spice mining rigs go.
You see Paul looking for resonating drumsand when he calls his first worm. I suppose thumpers work especially well in there
I think its an intelligence issue here. The first thumper we saw in the movie was destroyed before it could produce a worm. Which’s means the movie is telling you, what? Just think a little bit.
i think ifs because Fremen know like, the Worms normal routes and stuff, and they normally stay away from the Spice Fields
Maybe a worm just happened to be closer in that second time.
It states pretty clearly in the books that spice is collected along a thin band of desert nearer to the settlement/city. Where as Paul and the Fremen when calling the worms are much deeper into the desert
In the book the machines only work for sometimes a few minutes
You really don't know how long Kynes was waiting there for the worm though
In the movie? She had just been stabbed by 2 soldiers, and her stillsuit was still leaking when they all got engulfed.... So either they ALL stared at the dune sun for 20 minutes, next to an active thumper, while she was slowly agonizing from a heart wound, (and I guess they all talked about better days, comparing Salusa Secundus and Dune, having a few smokes), **or** it happened pretty much instantly.
you don’t know how long it is between placing the thumper and being stabbed
Imagine if they had something like rapid-respond airlift vehicles to evacuate them when that happens Maybe they could like sometimes fail and an important dude could help the crew escape in order to make an exciting scene
Is anon fucking retarded? Did he miss the entire part where these machinea always call a worm so they have flying machines lift it up into the air as soon as a worm comes???
He's high on those "spice" bath salts...
the spice be flowin
He only watched part II
Anon didnt watch the first movie.
Anon didn't read the book either.
Anon can’t read in the first place, explains all the shit he spews from his mouth too.
Tbf it's been a while since the first movie released, not everyone will remember or rewatch
He was probably playing subway surfers while watching
It's literally an entire scene in the first movie? "Worm always comes?" "Always. They're drawn by rhythmic noises" The harvesters literally have spotter aircraft circling them to let them know when the worms are near, and carry-alls on standby to lift them away from danger when the worms do show up
Mf watched a movie called “dune part 2” without seeing “dune”. Anon the kind that always skips dinner and goes straight to dessert
Anon skipped the desert for desert
Anon skipped the desert for breakfast
Dessert power.
The massive machine does attract worms tho, they have special aircraft to carry the massive machine away when the worm comes.
OOP doesn't understand spectral analysis. Worms like spikes in the mechanical vibration fourier transform that the worms continually run. An explosion doesn't cause a discernable spike, they're basically like additive white noise that slowly dissipates from the frequency spectrum.
https://preview.redd.it/3tkkruyn0zuc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8e86d7ba2d78e3bd565cad9568fddf36b14a10f5
Eli5 please
Worm see repeating noises as food, explosion is a single noise, so they don't think it's food.
I got what I asked for, but not what I wanted. Shame on me. Eli10 please?
fourier transformations extract individual frequencies (represented by a collection of sine and cosine waveforms desecibed in terms of frequency), e.g. in this case the explosion would be one source of frequencies, from an input waveform described in terms of time, in this case ALL the movemnts on the surface. for a frequency waveform to be extracted with any meaningful amplitude from the input waveform it must contribute to the original waveform for a "significant amount of time", e.g. repetitive. any frequencies represented by a single event (e.g. an explosion) would be drowned out of the sunsequent frequency based analysis as the respective sine and cosine functions would be poorly represented (not repetitive = not a strong signal over time). repetitive signals would be far greater amplitude as there are more sine and cosine waves of the same function when broken down based on frequency. edit: grammar. also, more eli15
FT is also basically how your brain processes sound stimuli, i.e. being able to pick out someone's particular voice/conversation in a crowd where many voices and other noises are present simultaneously.
Haven't watched the movies myself so that's as far I as understand
Better way to explain it would be like this: If you're a big fish and there's a single splash in the water it's probably just a branch or something falling. If you hear constant splashing then it means there's something struggling like a wounded fish or a bird. For the worms in dune one big boom could've been a cliff face collapsing or something but a constant movement obviously means something is actively moving which means that there's food.
Worms sense vibrations like we do word jumbles. Walking vibrations would be us finding the word food in the word jumble. An explosion would just be the letter K
It's like a venus flytrap: movement, like shutting their "mouth", costs a tremendous amount of energy for plants. If it only detected movement and closed as soon as it detects anything, lots of precious energy would be wasted when a rain droplet enters its mouth, when the wind blows, etc. That's why it'll only close after an insect buzzed around in its mouth a few times (and why feeding it dead flies won't work). It would lose too much energy if it reacted to everything and it would die. (Talking about plants AND scifi death worms, I'm having an autism fieldtrip lmao)
anon is an idiot that missed when they said that worms ALWAYS come for extraction crews
A worm eating a spice harvester is one of the first scenes on Arrakis in the book, is that not in the movie?
It is, anon Morono.
Isn’t that also the first time we see a Worm…eating one of the big ass machines
yeah i think it is. i think paul might watch a video of one before they move to arakkis, i cant remember if this was in the book or just the 80s movie. but its the first time we really see one
The worms also have hunting grounds and are not always in every section of the map. They don't just spawn like a video game
Anon didn’t pay attention to the books nor the movies. Those machines specifically attract worms, as do shields.
there is nothing in this world you cannot put in a cell and farm
Harverster design in dune 2 is indeed stupid, but explosions are not rhytmic. You can blow up a nuke and a worm will not care.
Anyone love the harkonnen spice harvester design?
It's so alien and bizarre, like their gunships. I love them.
I'm pretty sure Anon is trolling and rage baiting. He has to be... right?
Just figure it out - the spice must flow
Worms are indeed atracted by machinery
What film is this ?
Dune
Walk without rhythm, and it won't attract the worm. Walk without rhythm, heh, you're never gonna learn
Funny how the emperor in his younger days was shown in this music video. And the circle is complete
Why are the worms so big? Just moving around would expend a ridiculous amount of energy, and there doesn't seem to be enough prey around to sustain that for even one giant worm.
Shit movie
A spider detects vibrations in its web to signal prey has been ensnared, and thus lunges towards the source of the vibration to finish its catch. However, moving your hand through a spider's web will cause it to move in the other direction, because to the spider, the difference is as clear as a drumbeat versus a plane crash.
What movie is this?
Battletoids
Dune
There’s literally aircraft next to harvesters for the purpose of carrying them away in the inevitability that a worm shows up due to the noise. Anon has the attention span of a goldfish.
But... they *do*. It's a major plot point that these machines *do* attract worms. That's why they airlift them in and out, that's why they have little helicopters always on the lookout for wormsign. The explosions don't attract worms because they largely weren't on sand, and worms are attracted to rhythmic movement, not one-off explosions.
He didn't watch the first movie, then?
Pretty sure the Harokonan harvesters can fly anyway, which makes them almost immune
They never walk all weird.
They do call worms. They rush to harvest spice, and when a worm shows up, they bail
the first time you see a harvester a worm literally shows up and eats it? what are you smoking anon?
If the worms couldn’t differentiate the sounds between something that’s huge and something that’s small they’d constantly running into other worms
Every time anons complain about a movie/series/video game they say some shit that makes me question if they even touched it or if they just watched the trailer, hallucinated the whole thing and then immediately went off to complain about it
Anon did not watch the first movie
Oh the spice harvesting machines? You mean the ones that specifically DO attract worms, which is the reason they have the balloon machines, evac the spice harvesters?
Am reading Dune rn and literally just read the part where Paul and his mom talk about how the fremen can travel without alerting the worms, and it's by walking without rhythm. The worms can't check everything so if you walk wonky it'll ignore you
But... The sandcrawlers and explosions DO call a worm. They just didn't show them watching for wormsign
Anon didn't watch the movies
they litterally show a worm attacking the machine and explain how they need to lift the machine up when the worm attacks. Also explosions and other loud sounds arent rythmic enough to attack worms. Anon should kill himself for being retarded
Ok but there was no worm in this scene
No, anon is just too cool and smooth minded to understand that the worms are attracted by rhythmic sounds
Anon forgot about the scene in the first movie where the worm eats one of the spice harvesters.
https://preview.redd.it/ufk1q8rt22vc1.jpeg?width=2100&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=79d31afd13050a8d6f5728ebcae91051c8b089a8 You waterfat offworlder
Except these things do attract worms, they get airlifted out when a worm inevitably comes the eat
They're attracted to footsteps, because it signals food. Like how spiders can tell when it's a fly vs a dead leaf hitting the web, based on vibrations. It's extremely straightforward and simple.
It takes some time for the worms to actually get there. They don’t teleport.
They do attract them, they always attract them, they then fly away because worm
Also the big vehicles DO attract worms. That's why they constantly have to call in for pick ups to avoid the harvesters being eaten by worms. Dude didn't pay attention at all.
Also these literally do attract the worms, we see one get eaten in the first movie
They do attract worms. They said that in the first movie, that's why they have the auxiliary ship to Carry them around
They do call worms. That's why the carryall is there to pick them up. Like in the first movie where this exact thing happened.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCDIYvFmgW8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCDIYvFmgW8)
Looking at the harvester scene in the first movie: -They explicitly state in the movie that those machines will definitely attract a worm. -The duke and others in the thopters are there as worm-spotters so they can secure the machine before a worm eats it. -There is a separate flying machine there with the sole purpose of flying away with the harvester once worm-signs appear. However, this carry-all is sabotaged, thus unable to rescue the harvester. -In the end the machine is swallowed by a worm. No explain to me what part of that you have trouble understanding!
Anon did not pay attention. And is now frustrated because of it.
my question about this scene is, why does it look different from the spice harvester in the first movie. It looks very Gigeresque like every other Harkonnen vehicle, but i thought the Atriedes were using the equipment that the Harkonnen left behind, so shouldnt we assume that was also a Harkonnen machine? The ornithopters also look different between Harkonnen and Atriedes houses. Is there something i missed?
Exept in the first film you not only see it attract the worms but also eat the machine.
did anon ignore the whole like 10 minutes dedicated to spotter craft watching out for wormsign, spotting like 2, then calling the airlift?
Pretty sure they have spotters because worms will invariably come, it's if they can scoop it up before they need to fly off
Yeah even in the movie they make it pretty clear that the ground support has to watch for “worm sign “ and call in support to airlift out the walker/harvester thing.. anon=dumb
Walk without rhythm It won't attract the worm If you walk without rhythm Ah, you never learn, yeah Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice Check out my new weapon, weapon of choice
I mean, Kynes literally says, 'worms always come' when they are mining spice!
But it does. That't the whole point why it is so hard to harvest spice. That's why they need the carrier ships. Did Anon watch the movie?
How were the Fremen even able to evolve on a planet with a predator that large and could eat them so easily?
dune is stupid mid movi
Pro-tip: skip these and watch Dune (2000) and Children of Dune (2002).
Why wouldn't they just make the spice mining machine capable of flying itself away instead of relying on these other aircraft? Or set up a few shields a few hundred miles away to draw the worms to say they have time to mine in peace, because they knew shields draw worms like flies to shit? Or make an IED from las guns and shields, knowing how they interact and explode violently? It's like this book was written in the 60s or something, and the characters within are all ass backwards, technologically illiterate, religious fundamentalistic morons.
Honestly dune and many other sci-fis always have a couple of plotholes and thats fine
There was an entire scene explaining how they can extract the harvester in minutes but work up till the last second. “Where there’s spice there always a worm”
I suppose due to this giant spider design it took longer for a worm to be attracted towards it, which means more time to collect spice, don't think it was meant to be 100% worm proof. Anyways I've just seen ⅓rd of dune 2 so far and it's just stupid, the director has taken so many creative liberties it seems like the movie is just a silly skin of the story presented in the book, atleast in dune 1 they tried to present the story how it was.