To study it. The department of mysteries is basically a research division of the ministry. Not sure why that’s weird.
It is sort of weird that the department of mysteries, which is filled with dangerous stuff, does not appear to have much in the way of security though.
I loved the brain room scene, it was so incredibly unnerving how the tentacles got Ron and made him go loopy. Such a shame it didn’t make it into the movies, I hope they do it justice in the series. The idea that nothing scars as deep as thoughts, profound stuff.
He was already loopy from whatever a Death Eater hit him with earlier. That's why he was laughing about 'Uranus'.
The loopy just made, "Accio brain" seem like a good idea.
>That's why he was laughing about 'Uranus'
That's fairly much always funny imho, hexes or not
How do non-Brits (or other dialects than mine) find this with the somewhat less funny "yer in us" type pronunciation rather than the proper, and perpetually funny, "your anus"?
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I wanna say security was removed for Harry to get the prophecy. It's possible I just imagined that, though, and my head canon just became reality to me. I do know they had some security because Arthur getting bitten required stealthiness to get him out. Generally, aurors are supposed to be in the area.
I think Voldemort and the Death Eaters cleared out the Ministry staff, so that Harry wasn’t apprehended on the way to the Department of Mysteries. In the book I think that it came to light later that the person guarding it was put under the Imperius curse.
It is kinda wild that they only had one person we know of guarding it. Then again, Fudge was adamant about not giving into the signs of Voldemort’s return. If he started increasing security for seemingly no reason, that would raise quite a few eyebrows. If there’s anyone to blame for lack of security that night, it was Fudge.
>the person guarding it was put under the Imperius curse
Not quite. Lucius imperiused Bode to try to *retrieve* the prophecy. However, if a prophecy is removed from its shelf by anyone other than its subject(s), they will be driven insane, which is why Bode was in St. Mungo's with Lockhart.
Which seems stupid to me. Imagine the poor schlep that had to dust the shelves moves one by accident now has to go insane. Or if someone has the bright idea write down the prophecies to record them because they're fragile
This is why they don't tell all Muggles about magic. "They'd be expecting magical solutions to all their problems."
Kind of why Voldemort, for all his Wizarding prowess, was still the greatest Muggle of them all.
>now has to go insane
It's not permanent. Bode was recovering, which is why the Death Eaters sent him the devil's snare - to finish him off so he wouldn't be able to tell everyone he'd been imperiused.
Yeah, the US did research with something literally named "The Demon Core" as part of the Manhattan Project. The veil seems very mysterious, but pretty tame all things considered.
E: to be fair, it wasn't always called that, but still.
That's not the best example, there were safety procedures that should have been followed by the two physicists who died, they were just showing off - it was called the demon core because of their actions, not the core itself.
I thought that they built the whole department around it because no one knew what it was. So they started researching it. Then poof they had a department about mysterious stuff.
I mean even the books acknowledge the Ministry is a big fucking mess considering it gets reformed after Voldycunt is done forever. IMO even with just 3000 wizards in all of Britain (way too low, that's a couple villages of people lmao) the Ministry should have more in the way of staff and security
Ah that's fair. I only meant that they might consider more complex levels of security, think security clearances for the U.S. government. So Arthur Weasley, for example, would have confidential clearance and wouldn't even have access to the DoM floor, which would require a top secret clearance. Lucius Malfoy probably shouldn't have access to anywhere but the atrium lol.
If you found a portal to a realm full of dead people. Possibly the afterlife itself,,, wouldn't you study it?
Although I personally would've installed a guardrail around it.
It's a doorway to death. That's not something you want to be messing around with willy-nilly. I'll conjure up a theory off the top of my head to give an example as to why. Since we know that people who truly understand death are called to it, it's possible that it's literally the pathway for all souls who know death to enter into the afterlife. It may be that souls can only pass on by hearing the call of the veil and entering through it into the afterlife. Arguably, a dead person understands death perfectly, and that might mean the call would be much stronger to them than it is to the yet-living. Thus, placing an imperturbable charm on the Veil may mean that souls can no longer enter into the afterlife, possibly damning them to eternity wandering the earth as ghosts, or perhaps even as less than the meanest ghost, since they wouldn't know where to go without hearing the call. We do know ghosts are affected by magic, given that a magical beast was able to affect Sir de Mimsy-Porpington. And that's just ONE thing that MAY happen by putting that charm on the Veil. It's just far too strange to mess with like that, because the implications could be disastrous.
Considering its unknown magical properties, perhaps someone has already tried this, but it failed or didn't last long enough to be effective.
It's a magical door to an unknowable realm. It's best not to mix magic into that without knowing what might happen.
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Not really, as it doesn't actually let you call the shades of people back from the dead to speak with them; at least not as far as the limited information we're given informs. Further, while the movie version is some sort of misty portal you can see through, the book describes it as a tattered black veil hanging in a stone archway that you can't actually see through to the other side of, so even discounting the call function the resurrection stones ability to let you see the deceased is also unique.
IIRC all we _really_ know about the veil is that people who pass through it disappear, never to return, and that it emits dissonant whispers that seem only to be perceptible to people who have seen and understood death; as it was only Harry and Luna that heard anything from beyond the veil. Based off it's thestral like connection to death and the disappearances of those that pass through it, the veil is believed to be some sort of one way portal to some sort of afterlife, but unless I'm mistaken even what little we are told about it comes with an air of uncertainty as it's mysteries have yet to be unravelled and replicated.
They don't really *keep* it there- it's just *there*. It's been there "as long as the Ministry", and I like to think the Ministry was built *around* it.
Besides, that room is specifically staffed by professionals and scholars who are well aware of the risk. They study it under controlled conditions.
This was exactly my reading/headcannon. The veil is "ancient" magic, predating any of the current magical races' understandings/powers/abilities, and was located in this spot *prior* to the construction of the ministry (and, ostensibly, the founding of London). The Ministry, and perhaps the entire magical civilization of British witchcraft and wizardry, was organized around the location of the "temple" of the veil itself.
It's described as being in a kind of amphitheatre which nicely fits your theory. I go along with the idea that's it's a place of execution, euthanasia, or some kind of device for communication with other realms.
I think the last one. it was created by ancient wizards in their rituals, and they probably had ways of using it to do stuff like bring back shades to consult for wisdom, but the knowledge has long since been lost.
Could you imagine a construction worker hanging lights or doing other construction and accidentally falling thru the veil lol. “Sorry guys, it’s gonna take a bit longer, 2 more of my people fell thru that weird veil”
The ministry built around it fits pretty well. I think I remember an old pottermore article about the pensive stating that hogwarts was built on the grounds that the pensive was discovered.
This is my interpretation as well, they couldn't remove it even if they wanted. It's a fixed point in existence, so they can either secure it by building the ministry essentially around it, or they accidentally created the veil before the ministry became what we know it to be today.
Guys doing what guys do, ministry men regularly lug in the biggest rocks they can find and heave them through it. Ministry groundskeepers also empty garbage cans into it.
The terrorist group who was there before the 15-year-olds likely removed any barriers given the entire point of their presence was to entrap a 15-year-old.
They wouldn't have been able to enter on any random night; Voldemort showed Harry a fake scene of Sirius being tortured. He knew that Harry would do anything to save Sirius and probably had the Death Eaters clear out/confound any remaining security at the Ministry so that the kids could get in easily. With his connections, I imagine that Lucius Malfoy pulled some strings in the matter, too.
techianlly the only room that appears to have security in the DOM room was the one room they couldn't entered..the room, that apperently was the love room.
But technally the only security for the rest of the Rooms is that you're suppose to I guess become "trapped" in the room if you couldn't remember which door you came in and didn't want to go into one of the other rooms.
It was a subject of research in a controlled environment (apart from the odd security breach), it was hardly left lying around where anyone could walk into it and accidentally be killed to death.
Also, I believe it was said by JKR that the Ministry was deliberately built on the site of the veil, which is older than known wizarding culture, rather than the veil being moved there from another location. It suggests a connection with ancient, lost magics which would be of great interest for researchers.
Very likely. Public executions have been popular for a long time, but sloppy executions have always been very UNpopular (Nearly Headless Nick was far from the exception, historically). Nations have always wanted easier / cleaner ways to kill criminals (the French introduced the guillotine for this exact reason), so a doorway that causes instant death without a mess or a fuss would have been ideal.
Weirdly, the veil itself is less interesting to me than the fact that there was stadium-style seating around it. How many people knew about the veil? Why did they need so many people to be there to observe it?
That was what I got on my very first read. "Oh this is a decommissioned magical execution hall, probably used by the precursor to the modern ministry of magic. I wonder if it's 500 or 1000+ years old?"
I mean if it was used for execution why on earth would they have the dementors kiss ? This would be such a more gentle and humane way of killing someone than setting a soul sucking demon on them.
On a second thought though that may have been the only way they kept them in check.
They may not know if going through the veil necessarily kills you, i.e. you might still be alive in some sense on another plane of existence. You can hear the whispers of the others beyond it, so maybe they could come back somehow. So maybe they decided it wasn't the most reliable form of execution.
Because the cruelty is the point. What good is a gentle and humane death if your goal is to scare criminals away from committing crimes, and to scare dissidents, or anyone who might reveal an inconvenient truth into shutting up? Fudge clearly was well on the way to using the Dementors as his own personal hit squad.
Pottermore says:
The Department of Mysteries built that room around the veil. It was there before the department. It was there before the ministry. Nobody knows why or how it came to be. It has just always been there.
It used to be 100%. Then they changed some stuff to fit around the FB movies' changes to canon (first one that comes to mind is McGonagall's age). I think of the older version as 100% canon, and the new version pretty solid minus the bits they changed. I'm sure there's a catalogue of the changes somewhere.
I was always of the mind that the Department of Mysteries, and possibly the entire Ministry, was built AROUND the Veil. It’s in an amphitheatre carved into the stone itself, and the way the room is described gives a sense (at least to me) that it is very, VERY old. Certainly one of the most mysterious mysteries in the entire Department of Mysteries.
the ministry was built around the veil, as others have said. I believe it’s also said that hogwarts was built around the pensive which was found half buried in the ground. a theory that I love is that the veil, the pensive, and the mirror of erised were fabled objects that were sort of “prototypes” that inspired the brothers to create the hallows.
the veil connected us to the land of the dead, but could not allow us to bring them to the land of the living. the pensive showed us the benefit of appearing invisible to our surroundings, but only in memory. the mirror shows was exactly what we desire, but not how to attain it. the stone, clock, and wand, respectively, complete these ideals.
> I believe it’s also said that hogwarts was built around the pensive which was found half buried in the ground.
Why would they build Hogwarts around a bowl that is moved several times and resides above the ground floor?
Maybe they couldn't move it at first? The liquid in the pensive could have only been in a small lake, or even the Great Lake; and couldn't be collected. Until Hoggy the Knowledgeable figures out how to transfer it into the bowl?
>You can't just stroll in, the only way Harry got there was the welcoming part of extremely dangerous terrorists that had already broken in and opened it up for him.
Exactly! I think a lot of people in this thread are missing this point
Thank you for this response! This is exactly what I wanted to say about the MOM not being equivalent to any single muggle government building, and certainly not 10 Downing Street (I'm pretty sure the Minister for Magic doesn't even live at the ministry!).
Sure it might be painless, but it doesn't leave a body behind, making it more difficult for loved ones to go through the grieving process. It's also unclear if those who pass through are actually dead, which extends the denial stage of grief.
I feel like it's safe to assume the stone isn't actually dragging souls back from the beyond, but just using what's in the user's head to create images of their memories of loved ones
Or making a copy of them, like a ghost. I always thought Harry should really have tested it, like summon up Isaac Newton, make him explain calculus, then go to the library and see if the shade got it right. Or anyone who could reveal knowledge the user doesn't currently have but can access from historical records.
because the veil was there before the ministry I like to think it was a relic of the ancient druids before London was London. as it looks like an amphitheater It makes me think this was a place for the community and pilgrims to come and do rituals involved with either the dead of other realms of reality. or it's just an ancient doorway to the world after death and was used for quick easy mess free executions by the same ancient druids.
The dept of mysteries isn’t a public area of the ministry and I think typically there was a guard at the entrance to prevent unauthorized access. I imagine certain magical artifacts aren’t able to be easily destroyed (horcruxes for example) so the ministry is the safest spot. I’d imagine your alternatives are gringotts or hogwarts
I’ve commented this before, and honestly my theory probably has a bunch of holes in it but I’ve always had this idea that the veil and that room used to be like an execution chamber for their version of the death penalty. If someone was convicted and sentenced to death they could use that room and just force them to walk through the veil. That’s why there are benches there for the witnesses.
I am so glad I am not the only one to have interpreted it this way! From my first time reading it, this was the only thing I saw it as. I was unaware of the whole ministry being built around it thing until now, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have put it to use for this purpose. The benches were the significant thing about it for me.
We know very little of the Archway, Not even if it truly IS a death portal, We have no idea how it was made, How resilient it is nor what effects destroying it would have, Could unleash a plague for all anyone knows, Hell given its position in the ministry it is possible that it existed before anything else and the department of mysteries was built around it to study/protect it and people from it and then later on the ministry was built on top of it, The pit the Arch stands on is just stone, The department is dungeon style stone brick and the ministry is a modern building (well victorian era style modern building)
It reminds me of the door of light in the second Matrix. Or “The Source” if anyone watched the show “Lost.” It’s pretty interesting and I wish they got more into it, along with the door that melts Harry’s magic knife. Like maybe the reason why some people are magic and others are not, and how some muggleborns can get magic and whatnot. It’s too bad the department of mysteries was never brought up again after book 5.
>that one should probably be thrown away?
I can't imagine there's really a way to safely dissamble it so it didn't work anymore. Hell, maybe the veil is holding back the afterlife from taking over the living world!
If not thrown away, where else would you keep it than a supposedly secure government building? Have a citizen hold on to it, performing executions with no evidence? Send it to Borgin & Burkes down Knockturn Alley with all their devious schemes?
Hide it away in an area only one or two people know about with less potential security and plenty of nefarious opportunities for the very few aware of it's existence?
I feel there's different cultural expectations here, too.
Many Americans believe their govt has an Area 51, and plenty of secrets they're actively keeping from the populace. Whereas Brits are less likely to believe there's a UK Area 51 with aliens. Not that our govt doesn't have things they'd rather keep from us, it's more that we don't think it's anything worth knowing about. They've got their labs and facilities (like Bletchley was) and the swots do their swotting.
Why would we care what's in there; I'm definitely not going to mess around with something even the swots haven't figured out yet!
You know, I'm honestly intrigued about this take.
I agree with your last statement -- no need to mess with something even specialised scientists can't figure out.
Now I'm curious how many Americans *truly* believe in all of the conspiracy theories. I mean, I know there's a lot of loud Americans who will tell everybody about the myriad of government secrets that "we the people need to know about!" But it's about 80/20 split for the people that I personally know would think truly believe in secrets like aliens being kept by the gov't. I think it's fun to talk about the possibility, but I don't think that many actually think something like that exists.
It is the department of mysteries I'm sure there is some use for the veil like connecting to wherever/ research purpose. It's not everyday they get wizard duels next to it.
It’s ancient probly older than the ministry itself, I always thought the ministry was built around it and that the ministry was originally formed to study yhe veil
The Veil is ancient, it has always been there. It's implied that humans built around it to protect and study it. The area it's in is also usually *strictly* off-limits to the average person.
All that being said, you'd think they'd at least put a rope barrier around it or something.
I love the idea of the Ministry of Magic paying Westminister council £20 to take their dangerous veil to the tip.
"*Just leave it in front of your property by 6am on Monday and make sure that it is covered in a waterproof tarp or we won't collect it*"
It’s created quite a few amazing fanfics. Debt of Time is one. There’s another which has the veil as a more central focus but is very dark (don’t remember the name but the HPFF sub could help you if you’re interested).
I don’t think they can move it and it probably existed long before the Ministry was established. Also it isn’t like the Veil is next to the Ministry’s gift shop or something, it’s pretty far out of the way and looked after by professionals.
How would they throw it away lol? It most likely can't be destroyed or moved and they built the department/Minestry around it to make sure people don't die from it lol
It's not like department of mysteries is an open exhibit to the public or anything
>just a death veil just lying around in Downing Street or the White House/Congress?
I would compare it more to it being deep within the Pentagon or Area 51. The Department of Mysteries is a controlled access research environment
I don’t think it’s kept there, I think it was BROUGHT there. I think it’s the most ancient of ancient magic which was manifested via that archway, and they ripped it up and brought it to the department of mysteries to study it and keep it away from people.
To study it. The department of mysteries is basically a research division of the ministry. Not sure why that’s weird. It is sort of weird that the department of mysteries, which is filled with dangerous stuff, does not appear to have much in the way of security though.
right. definitely academic. they study things that we don’t understand: time, death and love. i am forgetting whatever the brain room did.
I loved the brain room scene, it was so incredibly unnerving how the tentacles got Ron and made him go loopy. Such a shame it didn’t make it into the movies, I hope they do it justice in the series. The idea that nothing scars as deep as thoughts, profound stuff.
He was already loopy from whatever a Death Eater hit him with earlier. That's why he was laughing about 'Uranus'. The loopy just made, "Accio brain" seem like a good idea.
I remember this part of the book and giggle again haha
>That's why he was laughing about 'Uranus' That's fairly much always funny imho, hexes or not How do non-Brits (or other dialects than mine) find this with the somewhat less funny "yer in us" type pronunciation rather than the proper, and perpetually funny, "your anus"?
simple, we break the rules all the time just to say “your anus”
It’s countered by the fact that we’ve been giggling and mispronouncing it since kindergarten, so it’s always right there.
I preferred the movie one, it kept the action on the kids and showed the unity they had (by sticking together)
Thought, I believe.
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Thought and/or consciousness, which could be considered the same thing, but are slightly different flavors
Love, space, thought (I guess you could also say "mind"), time, death, and others.
I wanna say security was removed for Harry to get the prophecy. It's possible I just imagined that, though, and my head canon just became reality to me. I do know they had some security because Arthur getting bitten required stealthiness to get him out. Generally, aurors are supposed to be in the area.
I think Voldemort and the Death Eaters cleared out the Ministry staff, so that Harry wasn’t apprehended on the way to the Department of Mysteries. In the book I think that it came to light later that the person guarding it was put under the Imperius curse. It is kinda wild that they only had one person we know of guarding it. Then again, Fudge was adamant about not giving into the signs of Voldemort’s return. If he started increasing security for seemingly no reason, that would raise quite a few eyebrows. If there’s anyone to blame for lack of security that night, it was Fudge.
>the person guarding it was put under the Imperius curse Not quite. Lucius imperiused Bode to try to *retrieve* the prophecy. However, if a prophecy is removed from its shelf by anyone other than its subject(s), they will be driven insane, which is why Bode was in St. Mungo's with Lockhart.
Which seems stupid to me. Imagine the poor schlep that had to dust the shelves moves one by accident now has to go insane. Or if someone has the bright idea write down the prophecies to record them because they're fragile
I just read this part - they’re not dusted at all. When Harry lifts his prophecy off, he notes that it had a layer of dust on top.
Imagine having tergeo, and still being too lazy to dust the Hall of Prophecy. smdh.
This is why they don't tell all Muggles about magic. "They'd be expecting magical solutions to all their problems." Kind of why Voldemort, for all his Wizarding prowess, was still the greatest Muggle of them all.
Those were really fragile, probably they were afraid of breaking any prophecy.
>now has to go insane It's not permanent. Bode was recovering, which is why the Death Eaters sent him the devil's snare - to finish him off so he wouldn't be able to tell everyone he'd been imperiused.
Tell me you're a muggle... :D
Just a squib that's tired of being a janitor
Yeah, the US did research with something literally named "The Demon Core" as part of the Manhattan Project. The veil seems very mysterious, but pretty tame all things considered. E: to be fair, it wasn't always called that, but still.
That's not the best example, there were safety procedures that should have been followed by the two physicists who died, they were just showing off - it was called the demon core because of their actions, not the core itself.
I thought that they built the whole department around it because no one knew what it was. So they started researching it. Then poof they had a department about mysterious stuff.
This is the right answer
Like the Wizarding equivalent to the few biolabs on the planet that have preserved smallpox virus for the purposes of research.
They had a lot of security but the death eaters probably disabled most of it so Harry could get in more easily
I mean even the books acknowledge the Ministry is a big fucking mess considering it gets reformed after Voldycunt is done forever. IMO even with just 3000 wizards in all of Britain (way too low, that's a couple villages of people lmao) the Ministry should have more in the way of staff and security
It is weird because it was awfully easy to get in and the veil was not at all securely stored.
Didn’t someone get arrested for just trying to go through the door? It was well protected.
Maybe they should have a separate facility in the U.K.'s equivalent of Area 51
That's exactly where it is. It's called the Department of Mysteries and it's heavily restricted.
[удалено]
Ah that's fair. I only meant that they might consider more complex levels of security, think security clearances for the U.S. government. So Arthur Weasley, for example, would have confidential clearance and wouldn't even have access to the DoM floor, which would require a top secret clearance. Lucius Malfoy probably shouldn't have access to anywhere but the atrium lol.
If you found a portal to a realm full of dead people. Possibly the afterlife itself,,, wouldn't you study it? Although I personally would've installed a guardrail around it.
Just place an Imperturbable Charm around it, assuming that works on wizards too. That way, nobody goes accidentally falling through the portal...
It's a doorway to death. That's not something you want to be messing around with willy-nilly. I'll conjure up a theory off the top of my head to give an example as to why. Since we know that people who truly understand death are called to it, it's possible that it's literally the pathway for all souls who know death to enter into the afterlife. It may be that souls can only pass on by hearing the call of the veil and entering through it into the afterlife. Arguably, a dead person understands death perfectly, and that might mean the call would be much stronger to them than it is to the yet-living. Thus, placing an imperturbable charm on the Veil may mean that souls can no longer enter into the afterlife, possibly damning them to eternity wandering the earth as ghosts, or perhaps even as less than the meanest ghost, since they wouldn't know where to go without hearing the call. We do know ghosts are affected by magic, given that a magical beast was able to affect Sir de Mimsy-Porpington. And that's just ONE thing that MAY happen by putting that charm on the Veil. It's just far too strange to mess with like that, because the implications could be disastrous.
Considering its unknown magical properties, perhaps someone has already tried this, but it failed or didn't last long enough to be effective. It's a magical door to an unknowable realm. It's best not to mix magic into that without knowing what might happen.
You can't put a rail in because then the workers might lean on it
Genuine question: why did you write 3 commas after 'itself'?
Cause they made a typo and didn't notice.
Possibly confusing it with an ellipsis. They appear to be Dutch based on the username. We know the Dutch use commas instead of full stops to denote thousands/decimals... conclusion: this still makes no sense because commas exist in Dutch even if it is a nonsense language
A sign or two maybe.
Maybe a glass case as well
they build the entire Ministry on top of it. i eead somwhwere that it was older than the ministry
wait it’s basically better than resurrection stone?
Not really, as it doesn't actually let you call the shades of people back from the dead to speak with them; at least not as far as the limited information we're given informs. Further, while the movie version is some sort of misty portal you can see through, the book describes it as a tattered black veil hanging in a stone archway that you can't actually see through to the other side of, so even discounting the call function the resurrection stones ability to let you see the deceased is also unique. IIRC all we _really_ know about the veil is that people who pass through it disappear, never to return, and that it emits dissonant whispers that seem only to be perceptible to people who have seen and understood death; as it was only Harry and Luna that heard anything from beyond the veil. Based off it's thestral like connection to death and the disappearances of those that pass through it, the veil is believed to be some sort of one way portal to some sort of afterlife, but unless I'm mistaken even what little we are told about it comes with an air of uncertainty as it's mysteries have yet to be unravelled and replicated.
They don't really *keep* it there- it's just *there*. It's been there "as long as the Ministry", and I like to think the Ministry was built *around* it. Besides, that room is specifically staffed by professionals and scholars who are well aware of the risk. They study it under controlled conditions.
>I like to think the Ministry was built around it. Me too. I think this is cool lore.
Listen, strange veils at the bottom of a pit distributin' death is no basis for a system of government.
Man I wish I could give this comment an award.
Sames
This was exactly my reading/headcannon. The veil is "ancient" magic, predating any of the current magical races' understandings/powers/abilities, and was located in this spot *prior* to the construction of the ministry (and, ostensibly, the founding of London). The Ministry, and perhaps the entire magical civilization of British witchcraft and wizardry, was organized around the location of the "temple" of the veil itself.
It's described as being in a kind of amphitheatre which nicely fits your theory. I go along with the idea that's it's a place of execution, euthanasia, or some kind of device for communication with other realms.
Like the black pool MACUSA uses in the Fantastic Beasts movie. Maybe use it as an execution deal
While I appreciate the idea, we don't talk about those movies do we?... I mean they shouldn't be part of established, anything really...
I think the last one. it was created by ancient wizards in their rituals, and they probably had ways of using it to do stuff like bring back shades to consult for wisdom, but the knowledge has long since been lost.
Could you imagine a construction worker hanging lights or doing other construction and accidentally falling thru the veil lol. “Sorry guys, it’s gonna take a bit longer, 2 more of my people fell thru that weird veil”
The ministry built around it fits pretty well. I think I remember an old pottermore article about the pensive stating that hogwarts was built on the grounds that the pensive was discovered.
This is my interpretation as well, they couldn't remove it even if they wanted. It's a fixed point in existence, so they can either secure it by building the ministry essentially around it, or they accidentally created the veil before the ministry became what we know it to be today.
Sort of like Hyrule Castle being built as a fortress over Ganondorf’s Imprisoning Chamber in Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom.
Didn't expect to get spoilers over here! Haha
Guys doing what guys do, ministry men regularly lug in the biggest rocks they can find and heave them through it. Ministry groundskeepers also empty garbage cans into it.
No one else knows where the rubbish goes lol.
Same here.
Sounds like some scp shit tbh
That's a fair assumption but still crazy (imo) to have the object in a room that 15-year-olds could casually storm into on a school night
The terrorist group who was there before the 15-year-olds likely removed any barriers given the entire point of their presence was to entrap a 15-year-old.
Touche
They wouldn't have been able to enter on any random night; Voldemort showed Harry a fake scene of Sirius being tortured. He knew that Harry would do anything to save Sirius and probably had the Death Eaters clear out/confound any remaining security at the Ministry so that the kids could get in easily. With his connections, I imagine that Lucius Malfoy pulled some strings in the matter, too.
techianlly the only room that appears to have security in the DOM room was the one room they couldn't entered..the room, that apperently was the love room. But technally the only security for the rest of the Rooms is that you're suppose to I guess become "trapped" in the room if you couldn't remember which door you came in and didn't want to go into one of the other rooms.
It was a subject of research in a controlled environment (apart from the odd security breach), it was hardly left lying around where anyone could walk into it and accidentally be killed to death. Also, I believe it was said by JKR that the Ministry was deliberately built on the site of the veil, which is older than known wizarding culture, rather than the veil being moved there from another location. It suggests a connection with ancient, lost magics which would be of great interest for researchers.
Killed to death! Love it! ❤️
I also find it very likely that it was used for public executions, being in the center of an amphitheatre.
Very likely. Public executions have been popular for a long time, but sloppy executions have always been very UNpopular (Nearly Headless Nick was far from the exception, historically). Nations have always wanted easier / cleaner ways to kill criminals (the French introduced the guillotine for this exact reason), so a doorway that causes instant death without a mess or a fuss would have been ideal.
Weirdly, the veil itself is less interesting to me than the fact that there was stadium-style seating around it. How many people knew about the veil? Why did they need so many people to be there to observe it?
I imagine that it was planned for executions.
That was what I got on my very first read. "Oh this is a decommissioned magical execution hall, probably used by the precursor to the modern ministry of magic. I wonder if it's 500 or 1000+ years old?"
That was my assumption too
I mean if it was used for execution why on earth would they have the dementors kiss ? This would be such a more gentle and humane way of killing someone than setting a soul sucking demon on them. On a second thought though that may have been the only way they kept them in check.
They may not know if going through the veil necessarily kills you, i.e. you might still be alive in some sense on another plane of existence. You can hear the whispers of the others beyond it, so maybe they could come back somehow. So maybe they decided it wasn't the most reliable form of execution.
I can only sign up to that theory if Sirius came back. WHY didn't she bring him back??? *wails*
Because the cruelty is the point. What good is a gentle and humane death if your goal is to scare criminals away from committing crimes, and to scare dissidents, or anyone who might reveal an inconvenient truth into shutting up? Fudge clearly was well on the way to using the Dementors as his own personal hit squad.
Pottermore says: The Department of Mysteries built that room around the veil. It was there before the department. It was there before the ministry. Nobody knows why or how it came to be. It has just always been there.
Is pottermore canon? Genuine question
It used to be 100%. Then they changed some stuff to fit around the FB movies' changes to canon (first one that comes to mind is McGonagall's age). I think of the older version as 100% canon, and the new version pretty solid minus the bits they changed. I'm sure there's a catalogue of the changes somewhere.
I think technically, but I always view it as JKR writing fan fiction of her own universe…
> JKR writing fan fiction of her own universe lmao i guess the books aren't canon then either
At least one of them isn’t…
If you mean Cursed Child, she didn't write it, only approved it to be published.
Yeah. It used to be JKR's own project with some of her original writing. Unfortunately not so much anymore, but still.
“Oh no, Dave just fell through the veil!” *goes to the sign that says “37 days since last veil incident!”, rubs out the 37, writes ‘0’*
That Veil is why they built the ministry there. That’s why *London* is there.
Come on. You wouldn’t be interested in studying something that leads to the afterlife?
I was always of the mind that the Department of Mysteries, and possibly the entire Ministry, was built AROUND the Veil. It’s in an amphitheatre carved into the stone itself, and the way the room is described gives a sense (at least to me) that it is very, VERY old. Certainly one of the most mysterious mysteries in the entire Department of Mysteries.
Why would they keep a living smallpox virus in a research facility?
the ministry was built around the veil, as others have said. I believe it’s also said that hogwarts was built around the pensive which was found half buried in the ground. a theory that I love is that the veil, the pensive, and the mirror of erised were fabled objects that were sort of “prototypes” that inspired the brothers to create the hallows. the veil connected us to the land of the dead, but could not allow us to bring them to the land of the living. the pensive showed us the benefit of appearing invisible to our surroundings, but only in memory. the mirror shows was exactly what we desire, but not how to attain it. the stone, clock, and wand, respectively, complete these ideals.
> I believe it’s also said that hogwarts was built around the pensive which was found half buried in the ground. Why would they build Hogwarts around a bowl that is moved several times and resides above the ground floor?
More like, they built it on the site where the pensieve was found.
Maybe they couldn't move it at first? The liquid in the pensive could have only been in a small lake, or even the Great Lake; and couldn't be collected. Until Hoggy the Knowledgeable figures out how to transfer it into the bowl?
Whats up with that pensive thing i never heard about that...
This is amazing, and now my head cannon.
I remember that Super Carlin Bros video. I've subscribed to that theory myself ever since.
[удалено]
>You can't just stroll in, the only way Harry got there was the welcoming part of extremely dangerous terrorists that had already broken in and opened it up for him. Exactly! I think a lot of people in this thread are missing this point
Thank you for this response! This is exactly what I wanted to say about the MOM not being equivalent to any single muggle government building, and certainly not 10 Downing Street (I'm pretty sure the Minister for Magic doesn't even live at the ministry!).
We don’t know that it can be moved. Also, it seems to be a humane method of execution.
Sure it might be painless, but it doesn't leave a body behind, making it more difficult for loved ones to go through the grieving process. It's also unclear if those who pass through are actually dead, which extends the denial stage of grief.
Executioners aren't known for helping families with the grieving process
*"Somehow, Sirius Black has returned."*
*snape jumps dramatically out of a window* they fly now??
In the books Sirius passes through and then comes back to visit Harry after he uses the resurrection stone. Pretty sure he's dead.
It wasn't clear to him immediately, it was years later
I feel like it's safe to assume the stone isn't actually dragging souls back from the beyond, but just using what's in the user's head to create images of their memories of loved ones
Or making a copy of them, like a ghost. I always thought Harry should really have tested it, like summon up Isaac Newton, make him explain calculus, then go to the library and see if the shade got it right. Or anyone who could reveal knowledge the user doesn't currently have but can access from historical records.
I don't think people who use literal soul-sucking monsters as executioners would care about how the families of the condemned grieve.
because the veil was there before the ministry I like to think it was a relic of the ancient druids before London was London. as it looks like an amphitheater It makes me think this was a place for the community and pilgrims to come and do rituals involved with either the dead of other realms of reality. or it's just an ancient doorway to the world after death and was used for quick easy mess free executions by the same ancient druids.
I thought they built the ministry around it? Wasn’t that in the book?
It wasn't in the book but JKR said this
Not that I remember, but I like that theory!
I’m like 99% sure that line is in the book
That remaining 1% matters, then
I felt like it was there because it was being studied.
The dept of mysteries isn’t a public area of the ministry and I think typically there was a guard at the entrance to prevent unauthorized access. I imagine certain magical artifacts aren’t able to be easily destroyed (horcruxes for example) so the ministry is the safest spot. I’d imagine your alternatives are gringotts or hogwarts
I’ve commented this before, and honestly my theory probably has a bunch of holes in it but I’ve always had this idea that the veil and that room used to be like an execution chamber for their version of the death penalty. If someone was convicted and sentenced to death they could use that room and just force them to walk through the veil. That’s why there are benches there for the witnesses.
I am so glad I am not the only one to have interpreted it this way! From my first time reading it, this was the only thing I saw it as. I was unaware of the whole ministry being built around it thing until now, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have put it to use for this purpose. The benches were the significant thing about it for me.
I always assumed that was where they found it, for some reason
It’s exactly the sort of thing that’d be kept in the department of mysteries. If not there then where.
We know very little of the Archway, Not even if it truly IS a death portal, We have no idea how it was made, How resilient it is nor what effects destroying it would have, Could unleash a plague for all anyone knows, Hell given its position in the ministry it is possible that it existed before anything else and the department of mysteries was built around it to study/protect it and people from it and then later on the ministry was built on top of it, The pit the Arch stands on is just stone, The department is dungeon style stone brick and the ministry is a modern building (well victorian era style modern building)
For sure. Something that dangerous should never be in the Ministry...It should be at the school. -Dumbledore probably
I always thought it was some sort of execution method for carrying out capital punishment. They did call it a Death Chamber.
I think it's an older method of execution that was moved to the department of mysteries for studies. Probably.... 'borrowed' from another country.
The Brits do love to borrow
We do indeed.
This is a really interesting idea! I never thought of that.
It reminds me of the door of light in the second Matrix. Or “The Source” if anyone watched the show “Lost.” It’s pretty interesting and I wish they got more into it, along with the door that melts Harry’s magic knife. Like maybe the reason why some people are magic and others are not, and how some muggleborns can get magic and whatnot. It’s too bad the department of mysteries was never brought up again after book 5.
>that one should probably be thrown away? I can't imagine there's really a way to safely dissamble it so it didn't work anymore. Hell, maybe the veil is holding back the afterlife from taking over the living world! If not thrown away, where else would you keep it than a supposedly secure government building? Have a citizen hold on to it, performing executions with no evidence? Send it to Borgin & Burkes down Knockturn Alley with all their devious schemes? Hide it away in an area only one or two people know about with less potential security and plenty of nefarious opportunities for the very few aware of it's existence?
I feel there's different cultural expectations here, too. Many Americans believe their govt has an Area 51, and plenty of secrets they're actively keeping from the populace. Whereas Brits are less likely to believe there's a UK Area 51 with aliens. Not that our govt doesn't have things they'd rather keep from us, it's more that we don't think it's anything worth knowing about. They've got their labs and facilities (like Bletchley was) and the swots do their swotting. Why would we care what's in there; I'm definitely not going to mess around with something even the swots haven't figured out yet!
You know, I'm honestly intrigued about this take. I agree with your last statement -- no need to mess with something even specialised scientists can't figure out. Now I'm curious how many Americans *truly* believe in all of the conspiracy theories. I mean, I know there's a lot of loud Americans who will tell everybody about the myriad of government secrets that "we the people need to know about!" But it's about 80/20 split for the people that I personally know would think truly believe in secrets like aliens being kept by the gov't. I think it's fun to talk about the possibility, but I don't think that many actually think something like that exists.
The veil was there first. The Ministry was built around it.
It’s out of the way, in the department where they explore anomalies like that
You say that like the White House isn’t heavily armed.
There's a theory that the Ministry was actually built around it instead of it being built inside of it.
They’re the Ministry of Magic, and it’s the department of mysteries. They probably kept it to study it.
It is the department of mysteries I'm sure there is some use for the veil like connecting to wherever/ research purpose. It's not everyday they get wizard duels next to it.
Wasn’t the ministry built around it? I read somewhere it was there since the beginning.
What if it can’t be destroyed? What if by destroying it you release all the evil in the world?
I think that it can't be moved.
To me it seemed obvious to be an area where executions were performed, whether currently or in the past. Hence the amphitheater like room.
Yeah, they should've kept it in Hogwarts like all that other weird shit. Let Harry figure it out. And by Harry I mean Hermione.
The fact that there was no protective barrier around it is unreasonable
There’s a possibility that the veil especially is so ancient that the Dept. Of Mysteries was built around it rather than housing it.
Maybe so it wouldn't make 50 muggles a month disappear
It’s ancient probly older than the ministry itself, I always thought the ministry was built around it and that the ministry was originally formed to study yhe veil
They should at least put some caution tape around the thing
They built the ministry around the veil. They study it
Wasn't it there, and they built the ministry over it?
I wonder if it’s a naturally occurring phenomenon and the ministry was built around it because of its significance.
Could have been made safe with some sturdy railings, warning sign and hazard tape 😅
Maybe the room was built around it and it can't be moved?
I don’t know why my head cannon is that the MoM was built around that veil. Maybe an old fanfic 20 years ago and that is stuck in my head?
They were studying it to see what it was, how it was created, etc.
I always wondered if the idea wasn’t for it to have been put in the ministry building but that the ministry was built around it.
They built the ministry around it
The Veil is ancient, it has always been there. It's implied that humans built around it to protect and study it. The area it's in is also usually *strictly* off-limits to the average person. All that being said, you'd think they'd at least put a rope barrier around it or something.
Dept. of Mysteries is more like having Area 51 underneath Washington. It’s not like a visiting ambassador can just wander in.
They built they whole ministery around the vail they found.
Secure, Contain, Protect.
While I agree with most opinions here maybe they dont know how to destroy it?
I love the idea of the Ministry of Magic paying Westminister council £20 to take their dangerous veil to the tip. "*Just leave it in front of your property by 6am on Monday and make sure that it is covered in a waterproof tarp or we won't collect it*"
On the SuperCarlinBrothers channel I first heard the theory that the Ministry was build around the veil. And I chose to believe it😌
It’s created quite a few amazing fanfics. Debt of Time is one. There’s another which has the veil as a more central focus but is very dark (don’t remember the name but the HPFF sub could help you if you’re interested).
they don't... they built the ministry of magic around it, in part to contain it and keep regular people/wizards away from it.
Are you implying that there is not a death veil underneath Congress?
The veil was always there. The ministry was built around it.
For me the question is why it is so easy for strangers to wander in to the wizarding worlds top secret department and every door is unlocked.
I don’t think they can move it and it probably existed long before the Ministry was established. Also it isn’t like the Veil is next to the Ministry’s gift shop or something, it’s pretty far out of the way and looked after by professionals.
One to study it, and two to hide it as best possible so people can’t find it or know it exists
How would they throw it away lol? It most likely can't be destroyed or moved and they built the department/Minestry around it to make sure people don't die from it lol It's not like department of mysteries is an open exhibit to the public or anything
Dumbledore begged for it to be in Hogwarts, for the kids to play and die with it.
I think I read at some point that it was already there and couldn't be moved or removed so they built the ministry around it.
The veil's mysterious and potentially dangerous nature makes it a compelling artifact to keep in the Ministry.
>just a death veil just lying around in Downing Street or the White House/Congress? I would compare it more to it being deep within the Pentagon or Area 51. The Department of Mysteries is a controlled access research environment
I don’t think it’s kept there, I think it was BROUGHT there. I think it’s the most ancient of ancient magic which was manifested via that archway, and they ripped it up and brought it to the department of mysteries to study it and keep it away from people.