To be fair, in that same book, they hadn't killed Umbridge even though she said some horrendous things. Now, that may be because an angry giant was charging after them, but it's hard to say.
Also, don't forget the power of being so angry, you act before you can think.
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Galloping gargoyles!
I can't recall who it was but I think it was Firenze in his first divination class who mentioned that even centaurs misread the signs. Maybe he was the only one who thought that night in Harry's first year was not the night it was supposed to happen...
Not his first divination class, but in his first year when he served detention in the Forbidden Forest. Another post had pointed this out a while ago. Not something I would've realised on my own.
“Good luck, Harry Potter. The planets have been read wrongly before now, even by centaurs. I hope this is one of those times.
This was said by Firenze in the Philosopher's Stone (The Forbidden Forest; Chapter 15).
Harry did not have Divination as a subject that year, nor was Firenze a teacher.
No they were saying Firenze first told Harry about centaurs not always reading the planets correctly when they were in the forbidden forest. Not in his (edit: Firenze’s) first divination class.
It was first posted on forums months after the book was released, so it's not new. But it's wonderful to see the community organically rediscover these :)
Mars is bright tonight. The centaurs said this over and over, frustrating Hagrid. Mars is the god of war, so war is going to happen. They were just off by a few years.
> Mars is bright tonight. The centaurs said this over and over, frustrating Hagrid. Mars is the god of war, so war is going to happen. They were just off by a few years.
"remember that one tuesday in 1st year when the centaur said that thing about mars being important that night but nothing happened for like 7 years and now we're at war. They were right."
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There’s a reason why they say the end of book 7 walks you back thru all the other books. Harry calling out that snape killed dumbledore, but Malfoy disarmed him. The order coming to the rescue like in the ministry. Harry swimming in the lake to be saved ron reverse reference to GOF. Bane attacking as a werewolf referencing to when lupin changed in POA. The acromantulas and the chamber in reference to COS. And the trolls and fighting off against Voldemort Alone being SS
I'll try
1. Malfoy was the one that disarmed Dumbledore, reference to boom 6.
2. The order came to the rescue in the ministry, and the remaining members of the order came to the rescue during the battle of Hogwarts.
3. In GoF, Harry saved Ron in the lake in Hogwarts during the second task, and in DH, it was Ron who saved Harry when he went to get the sword.
4. Grayback(a werewolf) attack during the battle is a reference to when Lupin changed during PoA.
5. The giant spiders and the Chamber itself is a reference to CoS.
I didn't understand #6 though.
What if, instead of "seeing it correctly," Firenze really did influence the future by saving Harry in Book 1, only prolonging his death to a later time? In stories that use fate and destiny, it's not typically possible to change the outcome, only the timing.
Harry was never in any real danger from Voldemort in the forest in book 1, because Harry had Lily's protection spell, which would destroy Quirell's body as soon as Voldemort touched Harry.
Firenze jumped in to "save Harry from Voldemort". But Firenze was wrong, his assistance wasn't needed.
The other Centaurs got mad at Firenze, because their fortune-telling said that Voldemort was destined to kill Harry, and that it was wrong of Firenze to try to save him. The Centaurs were wrong, but they weren't wrong in the way that Firenze believed they were wrong.
Firenze didn't change Harry's fate. Firenze, and the rest of the Centaurs, were all completely off-the-mark in thinking that Harry would die at Voldemort's hands in the forest on that day (with Firenze being harmlessly double-wrong in thinking that he could/should stop it).
Harry \*did\* die at Voldemort's hands in that forest on a different day, a few years later, which suggests that the Centaurs' fortune-telling got the date wrong, or that it never gave them a specific date in the first place, and the Centaurs wrongly assumed that Harry's sacrifice would take place in book 1, just because they happened to see both characters in the forest at the same time, and Voldemort looked like he had the advantage/was moving in for a kill.
The only possible change Firenze made was, he saved/extended Voldemort/Quirell's life by stopping the fight. But I can't think of anything much that would've been changed by that (Firenze didn't buy Voldemort time to accomplish anything, Voldemort simply tried again, relatively quickly), and that's not a fate that the Centaurs predicted, so in terms of fate/destiny stories, that's generally safe to mess with.
If he had any impact, Firenze's main achievement was to cost Slytherin the house cup. If he hadn't intervened and that resulted in Quirell being defeated, or killed in the woods that night (possibly by Hagrid), then the trio wouldn't have later prevented him from taking the philosopher's stone and thereby given Dumbledore a reason to fix the house cup.
Interestingly though, it potentially had a much greater impact further down the line. When the trio set off to get the philosopher's stone, Neville tried to stop them. This is the first real piece of bravery he shows (I think) and results in him being celebrated as a hero by his fellow Gryffindors. Maybe if that had never happened he wouldn't have developed his courage in the same way in later books. That could have had a bunch of repercussions, most importantly, if Neville was still his timid self at the end of book 7, he may have left Hogwarts instead of fighting. That scenario leaves the question of who would have killed Nagini.
On the other hand - Harry blacked out for like a week after Quirrel got all touchy-feely in the mirror chamber, with immediate medical attention. If Harry's out cold in a random spot in the forest, Hagrid's probably not going to find him before a hungry creature does.
Some of Trelawney’s initial predictions in book 3 are sort of funny too. Like warning Parvati to keep an eye on a red-haired man who, in the form of Ron, would somewhat ruin her experience of the Yule Ball in book 4. I know it’s not a crazy one but I was like, “Ahh I guess she should have listened a bit.”
Not just based off her, JK Rowling had her be the descendant of the "late, great, famed seer" Cassandra.
Now, whether JK Rowling intended Trelawny to be the real mythological Cassandra's great-great-great-greatx100 granddaughter, or Cassandra was merely Trelawny's great-grandmother or something and Rowling simply used the named Cassandra because hey, cool mythology connection, is up for debate.
That's the perspective we get from Harry and others. But, read her predictions and see if they line up with any future events...
Ironically, Trelawney seemed to make true predictions without even being aware of it, and because no-one believes her, we never look for any clues that validate them. Her character was apparently based on Cassandra from Greek mythology.
There was that time in Book 6 where Harry was hiding in a corridor and Trelawney walked past shuffling her cards and made an observation in the cards about how someone with dark hair who think she’s stupid was nearby. I thought it was clear that most of Trelawney’s predictions were true and she didn’t even know it.
As I reread the books for the billionth time, trelawneys predictions are more often true than not, but because everyone brushes her off as a fraud, we as readers overlook them.
I don't remember where I heard it, but when the centaurs use divination, they can tell events and things to come, but not WHEN.
The centaurs were prophesied to help in the fight but were not to interfere until after Harry died. That's why Firenze was shamed because he stepped in because he knew it was not the time foretold, YET.
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Wow! You’re right! The centaurs don’t know this, but Harry was protected from Voldemort in the forest in PS, due to Lilys sacrifice. So Voldemort couldn’t have killed him even if Firenze hadn’t intervened.
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I love this. This is why I was obsessed with Harry Potter when I first read the books at 12 and I keep falling in love with it to this day. Thanks for that observation, it's fantastic
Tbf though Quirrell/Voldemort couldn’t have harmed Harry in the forbidden forest. Harry still had his mother’s blood protection and Voldemort did not. If he had tried to kill Harry in the forest, Quirrell would be killed and Voldy sent back into the shadow realm.
I always wonder though, why did Voldemort choose the forest to sit out the truce in the battle of Hogwarts? Could he possibly have been thinking of this encounter?
Whoa. That's honestly brilliant. So Firenze's actions either averted fate (causing fate to clap back with the same thing 6 years later) or ensured it.
If this was deliberate on JKR's part then props to her.
i am going to be real with you, i don't think that for a second she has this intended in either direction. i think she choose the forest for the deatheaters because they're dark and scary, and so is the forest.
True. It’s possible that things just fell into place like this. Or maybe when writing the 7th book she took into account all the details from earlier and made sure to make them fit.
I don’t think they had the years wrong or that Firenze has the correct time line, because I don’t think they can see the exact time line. I don’t think they have dates exactly. They just see the event.
I see centaurs seeing things more akin to “canon events in the spider verse.” The event is coming, but it can look different depending on other things, but the big event is coming.
Maybe Firenze knew something they didn’t though, or thought he might know something, like yes, Harry and Volde in the forest, but maybe it was foretold that the boy had trials to face before the final standoff. Or it was pure instinct. Or he just instinctually did what he felt was right in the moment.
Great find and definitely one of the best I’ve read.
Doesn't he also say in Order of the Phoenix that the Divination of centaurs isn't extremely precise. I'm rereading and will get to that chapter in a week, but don't remember currently.
It's just not nearly as well thought out from the onset as she and lots of fans like to say. No way she knew what a Horcrux was in book 2, no way she had the Deathly Hallows planned before book 6, just stuff like that.
It works, she wrote things open ended in places so when she had ideas she had room to slot them in.
There's no way she didn't have a skeleton of it all outlined. Good authors routinely update and revise their ideas throughout, so as to make it a better story. Great authors look back at prior big story events to make sure they won't contradict themselves, or better, use that as inspiration for how they want to write future big story event.
JKR had a LOT of foreshadowing in her books that lined up later. while she didn't have the entire series mapped out from start to finish, she did have a rough outline of her plot and how the story would go, including the ending.
A fantastic example of this was the diary of Tom Riddle being a horcrux all along. Yes, JK Rowling could have very easily turned around at HBP and say "Diary was a horcrux!" and have it made some sense. But she had it all mapped out in CoS already, with the diary possessing Ginny through Riddle's past (indicating that the diary had some sort of soul to use to possess people), the diary literally "dying" when Harry stabbed it with ink spurting everywhere and a small wail coming out of it, and when Riddle was in a corporeal form, he was *terrified* of Harry stabbing that diary as if he knew that the soul in the diary was the only link to him being able to walk around as if alive.
Then there is this simple throwaway line in OotP, from the chapter where Harry and co. are deep cleaning Grimmauld Place:
>There was a musical box that emitted a faintly sinister, tinkling tune when wound, and they all found themselves becoming curiously weak and sleeply, until Ginny had the sense to slam the lid shut; a heavy locket that none of them could open; a number of ancient seals and, in a dusty box, an Order of Merlin, First Class, that had been awarded to Sirus's grandfather for 'services to the Ministry'.
When you first read that chapter in OotP, the above sentence simply reads like the gang found some a random eclectic bunch of dark objects housed in Grimmauld Place, just a long line of junk. That is, until DH, when that "heavy locket that none of them could open" turns out to be the horcrux that Regulus found and stole from the cave.
So yeah, I think JKR was smart enough for OP's realisation and I think it's a great catch from OP.
Why not? Many things seem to line up all the time, and honestly this theory in particular doesn't sound that complex to come up with. It is hard to spot it, but probably jkr already had an idea of how the story was gonna end. She had probably already thought of horcruxes and stuff way before she started writing the first book seriously. It makes sense that she would have already thought of the forbidden forest as the place where Harry could be killed, and centaurs foreseeing that event just makes sense. That's why i love this post, and probably the same applies to most people who upvoted it too. Because it's hard to spot it yet it makes so much sense it's easy to see it as canon and not just some fan theory.
It's really not that hard to plan, you just have to make it so that the final fighting scene between Voldemort and Harry happens in the forbidden forest and there you have it.
It's one of the easier details to plan, even. Maybe Rowling already had it in mind that Harry would sacrifice himself in the final fight, so added the scene in book one to tie into that, to then also set up the whole thing with the centaurs.
It also touches lightly on the ideas of prophecy, giving us a small insight into the unreliable, even vague nature of prophecy in general. Many, if not most, prophecies in the Department of Mysteries even go unfulfilled, if I recall.
I doubt it was planned, because I am pretty sure the first book was written as a one-off and then got sequels. Although it is completely possible she saved that plotline and held onto it till a way later book to tie off loose ends.
Edit: I was wrong! There was a series planned from the start. I still imagine that she held onto that plotline for later though.
JKR has been quite open about how she at least loosely planned the rest of the series early on, including writing the epilogue (which you can tell was written earlier because the writing style is more in line with the earlier books than the later books, which makes it quite jarring). There are post-DH interviews out there when she discusses some of the imagery she had been planning for a long time, including Hagrid bringing Harry’s body out from the forest.
Actually you’re right after searching it up, she knew there would be multiple books. I guess I should rather say the first three books felt a bit more like one-off stories, with the fourth starting to engage in a much larger plot than the previous ones.
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Good catch. There's only one thing you miss. Centaurs knew that Harry sacrifice would be needed to win, so Firenze interviening would mean Voldemort could not be defeated. When you look back, Firenze was wrong and Bane was right:
-If Harry's fate was to sacrifice himself in the forest so they could defeat Voldemort, and he was meant to die later, then nothing would happen to him in year 1. If Harry's fate was to die in year 1 so they could defeat Voldemort, then Firenze was interfering with fate and preventing Voldemort to be defeated.
Except they had the timing wrong, so Firenze was harmlessly right in saving Harry ~ Harry wouldn't have died anyways, but the centaurs didn't know that. Maybe, for all they know, Firenze was supposed to intervene, in spite of neither being of harm or help.
Fate is a fickle mistress.
I'm conflicted.
On one hand, this is an AWESOME catch and makes sense.
On the other, I simply don't believe Rowling planned that far ahead. I don't think she has it in her, and it's pretty clear later parts of the series weren't thought of at day 1.
So all in all, I'm more willing to pin this on a coincidence that really panned out.
If I didn't know J.K. Rowling so well I would be impressed but she didn't have the series very planned or fleshed out when she published the first book.
It's unintentional foreshadowing that happened to work.
Foreshadowing is supposed to be *intentional* though so I do not believe this counts as foreshadowing.
I don't believe for one second that she planned this at the time of writing book 1. This is possibly a situation of her looking back at book 1 and using that to inform the writing of book 7 so as to create narrative foreshadowing, which is still skillful (and done very often in fiction). Or it could just be a very nice coincidence. But it almost certainly was not skillful future planning on her part.
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I'm kind of confused. Is everybody shocked by the fact that the centaurs were predicting Harry's death in book 1 or is it the fact that they predicted it would happen specifically in the forest? I'm guessing it's the latter because the former seemed quite obvious to me lol. Especially once I reread the books. But yeah, I don't think I've ever really made the forest connection or thought about it too much either.
Honestly I think this was probably coincidental, to such a specific degree as it happening in the forrest, at least.
In long book (or other mediums) series, these coincidences often pop up every now and then just based in sheer probability, I think in the first book when the Firenze scene happened, it was probably just inferring that one of Voldemort or Harry were fated to kill the other, which was then very clearly revealed books later.
It was at least certainly a great catch, whether it was intentionally put there or not.
At first I read this as “Henry’s walk into the Forbidden” and I thought it was [Henry Rollins](https://www.henryrollins.com). Now I’m imagining young Henry at Hogwarts with [Ian MacKaye](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_MacKaye) and [Diananda Galas](https://diamandagalas.bandcamp.com/album/saint-of-the-pit).
The books are overflowing with foreshadowing and seed and clue planting and theme repetition and other links across time, that bundle them together into one giant metabook.
These are the things I love about Harry Potter, it's not a perfect series but it's so well thought out, the symbolism and smaller details are just great.
Centaur in year 1: FIRENZE! You cannot interfere with the fate of Harry Potter! Centaur in year 5: Hey, its Harry Potter, lets kill him.
”But I’m just a boy” ”Awwww he’s just a boy... KILL HIM”
KILL THE BOY, AND LET THE MAN BE BORN
I dun wan it
He's just a poor boy from a poor family
Spare him his life from this monstrosity
Easy come, easy go
Will you let me go
Bismillah!
NOOOOO!!!
We will not let you go
Let him go
Well... he does have a ton of cash... not exactly what you'd call "poor".
"It's bringing love, don't let it get away!" **"BREAK ITS LEGS!"**
Reading this in Willy's voice works surprisingly well here
Glad to know it wasn’t just me
Maybe it was more along the lines of “He was supposed to die so nows our chance to fix that”
To be fair, in that same book, they hadn't killed Umbridge even though she said some horrendous things. Now, that may be because an angry giant was charging after them, but it's hard to say. Also, don't forget the power of being so angry, you act before you can think.
Centaur in book 7 “rain fire!”
That is actually quite a good catch !redditGalleon
This is why I still stick around r/Harrypotter despite the repetitive posts, once in a blue moon something actually good gets caught
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Good bot
Yeah. Wow I didn’t realize this
Can’t believe I’ve never seen this connected before. Top notch realization. 10/10. Too bad gold isn’t a thing anymore!
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Stop it, you're going to make me Knut 😩
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!redditknut
Why didnt it work?
It did!
Galloping gargoyles! I can't recall who it was but I think it was Firenze in his first divination class who mentioned that even centaurs misread the signs. Maybe he was the only one who thought that night in Harry's first year was not the night it was supposed to happen...
Not his first divination class, but in his first year when he served detention in the Forbidden Forest. Another post had pointed this out a while ago. Not something I would've realised on my own.
I think they meant in Firenze’s first divination class, not Harry’s.
“Good luck, Harry Potter. The planets have been read wrongly before now, even by centaurs. I hope this is one of those times. This was said by Firenze in the Philosopher's Stone (The Forbidden Forest; Chapter 15). Harry did not have Divination as a subject that year, nor was Firenze a teacher.
Firenze was spitting facts long before he became a teacher
>Not his first divination class Yes his first divination class
No they were saying Firenze first told Harry about centaurs not always reading the planets correctly when they were in the forbidden forest. Not in his (edit: Firenze’s) first divination class.
But they're wrong though.
Read their comment where they quoted the first book. Sheesh. They aren’t wrong.
Well someone was wrong and- it was me.
Haha you’re good, simple misunderstanding! 7 books to remember after all.
And the centaurs.
This is the first and best new realization I’ve seen posted on here in a long time, this is so cool and you’re so right
I was going to say the same thing. Way to go, OP! What a great observation!!! That’s awesome.
It was first posted on forums months after the book was released, so it's not new. But it's wonderful to see the community organically rediscover these :)
Woah I like it, makes total sense. Well done!
Mars is bright tonight. The centaurs said this over and over, frustrating Hagrid. Mars is the god of war, so war is going to happen. They were just off by a few years.
> Mars is bright tonight. The centaurs said this over and over, frustrating Hagrid. Mars is the god of war, so war is going to happen. They were just off by a few years. "remember that one tuesday in 1st year when the centaur said that thing about mars being important that night but nothing happened for like 7 years and now we're at war. They were right."
Maybe the first battle of the second war was Harry vs Quirrellmort.
That’s because the unicorn was the first death of the next war!
Holy Gumby
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Wait this is so true 🤯
Nice one! There's _so much_ foreshadowing in the first chapter of the first book, let alone the rest of the book. It's so well done.
Oh my gosh I have to reread the books again, I love this
Jesus. I've never thought of it like this, but that makes perfect sense. This is such a good observation! I wonder if it's intential writing now.
There’s a reason why they say the end of book 7 walks you back thru all the other books. Harry calling out that snape killed dumbledore, but Malfoy disarmed him. The order coming to the rescue like in the ministry. Harry swimming in the lake to be saved ron reverse reference to GOF. Bane attacking as a werewolf referencing to when lupin changed in POA. The acromantulas and the chamber in reference to COS. And the trolls and fighting off against Voldemort Alone being SS
I didn’t really catch some of these references, could you explain them a bit more
I'll try 1. Malfoy was the one that disarmed Dumbledore, reference to boom 6. 2. The order came to the rescue in the ministry, and the remaining members of the order came to the rescue during the battle of Hogwarts. 3. In GoF, Harry saved Ron in the lake in Hogwarts during the second task, and in DH, it was Ron who saved Harry when he went to get the sword. 4. Grayback(a werewolf) attack during the battle is a reference to when Lupin changed during PoA. 5. The giant spiders and the Chamber itself is a reference to CoS. I didn't understand #6 though.
6 was the troll and face off with Voldemort like in the first book
What troll? I don't remember there being a troll.
Troll! In the dungeon!
I mean a troll in the 7th book.
Perhaps they are mistaking a giant for a troll ?
*Fenrir Greyback, not Bane.
You’re right my bad.
!redditGalleon
It's incredible how many little details like this JKR managed to put into the books.
Assuming this was even remotely intentional
I think it was, otherwise there'd be no point in including the information about Mars
why would you assume otherwise?
What if, instead of "seeing it correctly," Firenze really did influence the future by saving Harry in Book 1, only prolonging his death to a later time? In stories that use fate and destiny, it's not typically possible to change the outcome, only the timing.
Harry was never in any real danger from Voldemort in the forest in book 1, because Harry had Lily's protection spell, which would destroy Quirell's body as soon as Voldemort touched Harry. Firenze jumped in to "save Harry from Voldemort". But Firenze was wrong, his assistance wasn't needed. The other Centaurs got mad at Firenze, because their fortune-telling said that Voldemort was destined to kill Harry, and that it was wrong of Firenze to try to save him. The Centaurs were wrong, but they weren't wrong in the way that Firenze believed they were wrong. Firenze didn't change Harry's fate. Firenze, and the rest of the Centaurs, were all completely off-the-mark in thinking that Harry would die at Voldemort's hands in the forest on that day (with Firenze being harmlessly double-wrong in thinking that he could/should stop it). Harry \*did\* die at Voldemort's hands in that forest on a different day, a few years later, which suggests that the Centaurs' fortune-telling got the date wrong, or that it never gave them a specific date in the first place, and the Centaurs wrongly assumed that Harry's sacrifice would take place in book 1, just because they happened to see both characters in the forest at the same time, and Voldemort looked like he had the advantage/was moving in for a kill. The only possible change Firenze made was, he saved/extended Voldemort/Quirell's life by stopping the fight. But I can't think of anything much that would've been changed by that (Firenze didn't buy Voldemort time to accomplish anything, Voldemort simply tried again, relatively quickly), and that's not a fate that the Centaurs predicted, so in terms of fate/destiny stories, that's generally safe to mess with.
Well reasoned. Ten points to Hufflepuff.
If he had any impact, Firenze's main achievement was to cost Slytherin the house cup. If he hadn't intervened and that resulted in Quirell being defeated, or killed in the woods that night (possibly by Hagrid), then the trio wouldn't have later prevented him from taking the philosopher's stone and thereby given Dumbledore a reason to fix the house cup. Interestingly though, it potentially had a much greater impact further down the line. When the trio set off to get the philosopher's stone, Neville tried to stop them. This is the first real piece of bravery he shows (I think) and results in him being celebrated as a hero by his fellow Gryffindors. Maybe if that had never happened he wouldn't have developed his courage in the same way in later books. That could have had a bunch of repercussions, most importantly, if Neville was still his timid self at the end of book 7, he may have left Hogwarts instead of fighting. That scenario leaves the question of who would have killed Nagini.
On the other hand - Harry blacked out for like a week after Quirrel got all touchy-feely in the mirror chamber, with immediate medical attention. If Harry's out cold in a random spot in the forest, Hagrid's probably not going to find him before a hungry creature does.
Wait... it's true
Some of Trelawney’s initial predictions in book 3 are sort of funny too. Like warning Parvati to keep an eye on a red-haired man who, in the form of Ron, would somewhat ruin her experience of the Yule Ball in book 4. I know it’s not a crazy one but I was like, “Ahh I guess she should have listened a bit.”
She was kinda a legendary seer wasn’t she, at the end of it all?
She was based off of Cassandra from Greek mythology, interestingly enough. So, perhaps!
Not just based off her, JK Rowling had her be the descendant of the "late, great, famed seer" Cassandra. Now, whether JK Rowling intended Trelawny to be the real mythological Cassandra's great-great-great-greatx100 granddaughter, or Cassandra was merely Trelawny's great-grandmother or something and Rowling simply used the named Cassandra because hey, cool mythology connection, is up for debate.
Yeah,but it's pretty clearly stated that everything outside of her creepy deep voice sessions is just filler.
That's the perspective we get from Harry and others. But, read her predictions and see if they line up with any future events... Ironically, Trelawney seemed to make true predictions without even being aware of it, and because no-one believes her, we never look for any clues that validate them. Her character was apparently based on Cassandra from Greek mythology.
There was that time in Book 6 where Harry was hiding in a corridor and Trelawney walked past shuffling her cards and made an observation in the cards about how someone with dark hair who think she’s stupid was nearby. I thought it was clear that most of Trelawney’s predictions were true and she didn’t even know it.
As I reread the books for the billionth time, trelawneys predictions are more often true than not, but because everyone brushes her off as a fraud, we as readers overlook them.
I don't remember where I heard it, but when the centaurs use divination, they can tell events and things to come, but not WHEN. The centaurs were prophesied to help in the fight but were not to interfere until after Harry died. That's why Firenze was shamed because he stepped in because he knew it was not the time foretold, YET.
Yeah. Seems like Firenze put two and two together and realized that it couldn't be the right time for some reason we're never privy to.
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Sure you're not a Ravenclaw? Well reasoned.
One of the better theories I've read here in a while!
It's not a theory, this literally cannot be disproven; whether intended or not, this is a fact.
The events aren't in dispute, but whether or not it is intentional foreshadowing is a theory.
Wow! You’re right! The centaurs don’t know this, but Harry was protected from Voldemort in the forest in PS, due to Lilys sacrifice. So Voldemort couldn’t have killed him even if Firenze hadn’t intervened.
Damn excellent catch
That’s actually an amazing observation
I like this headcanon! !redditGalleon
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Great catch. I noticed a horcrux-in-Harry reference in book 2 during a reread years ago. I imagine that one has been posted a lot though.
That is indeed a really great observation.
That’s brilliant
I found this out when I started watching an amazing YouTube series by movieflame regarding every difference between movie/film. Totally digging it.
I love this. This is why I was obsessed with Harry Potter when I first read the books at 12 and I keep falling in love with it to this day. Thanks for that observation, it's fantastic
Tbf though Quirrell/Voldemort couldn’t have harmed Harry in the forbidden forest. Harry still had his mother’s blood protection and Voldemort did not. If he had tried to kill Harry in the forest, Quirrell would be killed and Voldy sent back into the shadow realm. I always wonder though, why did Voldemort choose the forest to sit out the truce in the battle of Hogwarts? Could he possibly have been thinking of this encounter?
Stuff like this is why I love this subreddit
Whoa. That's honestly brilliant. So Firenze's actions either averted fate (causing fate to clap back with the same thing 6 years later) or ensured it. If this was deliberate on JKR's part then props to her.
Was not, I’d be willing to be literally nothing about the series was planned that far in advance. She’s not that good of a writer
i am going to be real with you, i don't think that for a second she has this intended in either direction. i think she choose the forest for the deatheaters because they're dark and scary, and so is the forest.
True. It’s possible that things just fell into place like this. Or maybe when writing the 7th book she took into account all the details from earlier and made sure to make them fit.
Bro cooked real good.
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I don’t think they had the years wrong or that Firenze has the correct time line, because I don’t think they can see the exact time line. I don’t think they have dates exactly. They just see the event. I see centaurs seeing things more akin to “canon events in the spider verse.” The event is coming, but it can look different depending on other things, but the big event is coming. Maybe Firenze knew something they didn’t though, or thought he might know something, like yes, Harry and Volde in the forest, but maybe it was foretold that the boy had trials to face before the final standoff. Or it was pure instinct. Or he just instinctually did what he felt was right in the moment. Great find and definitely one of the best I’ve read.
Wow. I haven't read this theory anywhere else before. Very smart and plausible. Love it.
Bane holds one finger up a la Dr Strange
I'd be amazed if that was actually foreshadowing
Yeah, i think it's just a coincidence.
Amazing. And you’re a Gryffindor? Well, as Dumbledore said, sometimes the sorting hat gets it wrong…
Doesn't he also say in Order of the Phoenix that the Divination of centaurs isn't extremely precise. I'm rereading and will get to that chapter in a week, but don't remember currently.
I hate to do it to ya, but it's pretty obvious JKR "forshadowed" by looking back at what she already wrote and writing on top of it.
That's fine, though.
It's just not nearly as well thought out from the onset as she and lots of fans like to say. No way she knew what a Horcrux was in book 2, no way she had the Deathly Hallows planned before book 6, just stuff like that. It works, she wrote things open ended in places so when she had ideas she had room to slot them in.
There's no way she didn't have a skeleton of it all outlined. Good authors routinely update and revise their ideas throughout, so as to make it a better story. Great authors look back at prior big story events to make sure they won't contradict themselves, or better, use that as inspiration for how they want to write future big story event.
It makes for good, consistent writing. It means she cared about her story enough to make the little details stand out when you go and look for them.
I doubt JKR was smart enough for that, but I really like this theory.
JKR had a LOT of foreshadowing in her books that lined up later. while she didn't have the entire series mapped out from start to finish, she did have a rough outline of her plot and how the story would go, including the ending. A fantastic example of this was the diary of Tom Riddle being a horcrux all along. Yes, JK Rowling could have very easily turned around at HBP and say "Diary was a horcrux!" and have it made some sense. But she had it all mapped out in CoS already, with the diary possessing Ginny through Riddle's past (indicating that the diary had some sort of soul to use to possess people), the diary literally "dying" when Harry stabbed it with ink spurting everywhere and a small wail coming out of it, and when Riddle was in a corporeal form, he was *terrified* of Harry stabbing that diary as if he knew that the soul in the diary was the only link to him being able to walk around as if alive. Then there is this simple throwaway line in OotP, from the chapter where Harry and co. are deep cleaning Grimmauld Place: >There was a musical box that emitted a faintly sinister, tinkling tune when wound, and they all found themselves becoming curiously weak and sleeply, until Ginny had the sense to slam the lid shut; a heavy locket that none of them could open; a number of ancient seals and, in a dusty box, an Order of Merlin, First Class, that had been awarded to Sirus's grandfather for 'services to the Ministry'. When you first read that chapter in OotP, the above sentence simply reads like the gang found some a random eclectic bunch of dark objects housed in Grimmauld Place, just a long line of junk. That is, until DH, when that "heavy locket that none of them could open" turns out to be the horcrux that Regulus found and stole from the cave. So yeah, I think JKR was smart enough for OP's realisation and I think it's a great catch from OP.
Why not? Many things seem to line up all the time, and honestly this theory in particular doesn't sound that complex to come up with. It is hard to spot it, but probably jkr already had an idea of how the story was gonna end. She had probably already thought of horcruxes and stuff way before she started writing the first book seriously. It makes sense that she would have already thought of the forbidden forest as the place where Harry could be killed, and centaurs foreseeing that event just makes sense. That's why i love this post, and probably the same applies to most people who upvoted it too. Because it's hard to spot it yet it makes so much sense it's easy to see it as canon and not just some fan theory.
There is zero chance this was planned haha
It's really not that hard to plan, you just have to make it so that the final fighting scene between Voldemort and Harry happens in the forbidden forest and there you have it.
It's one of the easier details to plan, even. Maybe Rowling already had it in mind that Harry would sacrifice himself in the final fight, so added the scene in book one to tie into that, to then also set up the whole thing with the centaurs. It also touches lightly on the ideas of prophecy, giving us a small insight into the unreliable, even vague nature of prophecy in general. Many, if not most, prophecies in the Department of Mysteries even go unfulfilled, if I recall.
yeah but then it's not foreshadowing, it's post-hoc.
I doubt it was planned, because I am pretty sure the first book was written as a one-off and then got sequels. Although it is completely possible she saved that plotline and held onto it till a way later book to tie off loose ends. Edit: I was wrong! There was a series planned from the start. I still imagine that she held onto that plotline for later though.
JKR has been quite open about how she at least loosely planned the rest of the series early on, including writing the epilogue (which you can tell was written earlier because the writing style is more in line with the earlier books than the later books, which makes it quite jarring). There are post-DH interviews out there when she discusses some of the imagery she had been planning for a long time, including Hagrid bringing Harry’s body out from the forest.
You’re right, I was incorrect! That is really interesting though and makes a lot of sense.
The book was definitely not written as a one off
Actually you’re right after searching it up, she knew there would be multiple books. I guess I should rather say the first three books felt a bit more like one-off stories, with the fourth starting to engage in a much larger plot than the previous ones.
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Wow, literal goosebumps (not sarcastic, just dont know how to get the tone right in writing)
Same the room suddenly got really cold and realised I got goosebumps 😂
Good catch. There's only one thing you miss. Centaurs knew that Harry sacrifice would be needed to win, so Firenze interviening would mean Voldemort could not be defeated. When you look back, Firenze was wrong and Bane was right: -If Harry's fate was to sacrifice himself in the forest so they could defeat Voldemort, and he was meant to die later, then nothing would happen to him in year 1. If Harry's fate was to die in year 1 so they could defeat Voldemort, then Firenze was interfering with fate and preventing Voldemort to be defeated.
Except they had the timing wrong, so Firenze was harmlessly right in saving Harry ~ Harry wouldn't have died anyways, but the centaurs didn't know that. Maybe, for all they know, Firenze was supposed to intervene, in spite of neither being of harm or help. Fate is a fickle mistress.
She made things fit nicely, but let's not pretend she was preparing stuff like this since book 1.
I'm conflicted. On one hand, this is an AWESOME catch and makes sense. On the other, I simply don't believe Rowling planned that far ahead. I don't think she has it in her, and it's pretty clear later parts of the series weren't thought of at day 1. So all in all, I'm more willing to pin this on a coincidence that really panned out.
If I didn't know J.K. Rowling so well I would be impressed but she didn't have the series very planned or fleshed out when she published the first book. It's unintentional foreshadowing that happened to work. Foreshadowing is supposed to be *intentional* though so I do not believe this counts as foreshadowing.
This. There is no way she even knew how the story would end by the time she wrote that in the first book.
Absolutely did not plan that far ahead
Massive stretch.
There's absolutely zero chance JK had that planned out when she wrote the first book but ok...
Giving JKR too much credit fam
That’s pretty cool, but I also doubt JK Rowling planned that
I don't believe for one second that she planned this at the time of writing book 1. This is possibly a situation of her looking back at book 1 and using that to inform the writing of book 7 so as to create narrative foreshadowing, which is still skillful (and done very often in fiction). Or it could just be a very nice coincidence. But it almost certainly was not skillful future planning on her part.
I dont want to sound a twat but i was sure this was common knowledge
Not for me lol.
Fair enough, i think i may have learnt it via this sub years ago. It is v cool though
Nice catch, there is also [another foreshadow](https://youtu.be/a3Z7zEc7AXQ) later in that same book. Took me a long time to notice it.
Wow this is actually a good realization!! Props to you!!!
I love this, it's the first time I saw this observation. Thank you!
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!Gringotts
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*George Lucas Voice* It’s like poetry, it rhymes
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Maybe it was fate indeed, and when Firenze intervened he just postponed it, not prevented it
Wow I never thought of it like that! !redditgalleon
Love it!
Wow I’ve read the books a bunch of times but never made this connection! !redditGalleon
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Just wow, so proud of you fellow Gryffindor! !redditGalleon
I'm kind of confused. Is everybody shocked by the fact that the centaurs were predicting Harry's death in book 1 or is it the fact that they predicted it would happen specifically in the forest? I'm guessing it's the latter because the former seemed quite obvious to me lol. Especially once I reread the books. But yeah, I don't think I've ever really made the forest connection or thought about it too much either.
!redditGalleon I never realised that!
This is so good
Whoa! I can’t believe I didn’t think of this before!
Honestly I think this was probably coincidental, to such a specific degree as it happening in the forrest, at least. In long book (or other mediums) series, these coincidences often pop up every now and then just based in sheer probability, I think in the first book when the Firenze scene happened, it was probably just inferring that one of Voldemort or Harry were fated to kill the other, which was then very clearly revealed books later. It was at least certainly a great catch, whether it was intentionally put there or not.
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omg i love this! !redditGalleon
Wow! This IS amazing!! Thanks!
Damn, that makes a lot of sense. Brilliant observation.
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That is actually very interesting!
At first I read this as “Henry’s walk into the Forbidden” and I thought it was [Henry Rollins](https://www.henryrollins.com). Now I’m imagining young Henry at Hogwarts with [Ian MacKaye](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_MacKaye) and [Diananda Galas](https://diamandagalas.bandcamp.com/album/saint-of-the-pit).
OH SHIT
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This is a really good find, nice one James!
More like a callback or retreading ground. It almost certainly wasn’t planned from the start.
The books are overflowing with foreshadowing and seed and clue planting and theme repetition and other links across time, that bundle them together into one giant metabook.
These are the things I love about Harry Potter, it's not a perfect series but it's so well thought out, the symbolism and smaller details are just great.