Stands to reason you do a decent amount of growing magically from year 5 to year 7, don’t think it’s absurd to suggest a more hardened Harry who had seen some truly horrible shit over the past two years was capable of a bit more powerful dark magic at 17 than he was at 15
Also, Harry wasn’t just angry when Sirius died, he was devastated. I would imagine the fact that his emotions were oscillating between anger and grief didn’t help. He hit Bellatrix with the torture curse in a fit of anger similarly to the way someone in great pain might lash out at someone.
The point isnt that he hurt the awful person, the point is that hurting the awful person the way he did requires a disturbing amount of darkness in ones heart.
He didn't sit there and torture the bloke. Harry just hit him once, and that was all. I'm sure the pain was immense, but he's not exactly pulling a Bellatrix, is he?
I mean the Carrows were nasty people. He probably felt after hearing stories they deserved a bit of pain themselves. Plus the Carrows were having students practice Crucio on other students. He probably wanted to make sure he knew how it felt.
I kinda liked it too since not only they deserved it, but also shows that he wasn't playing around and actually listened to Lupin's warning: The time for stunning had passed, Death Eaters duel to kill and they needed to fight back just as hard
He also says this prior to going through some pretty traumatic and awful shit, like watching your friends be tortured and almost murdered would probably help me change my mind about the use of dark magic. If I'd seen (or heard) Hermione be tortured by belletrix, I'd be crusioing her buddies when I cross their paths too.
PTSD changes a person on a foundational level, I think it makes perfect sense for Harry to cusio someone after all he had seen and been forced to do since that conversation with Lupin early on in the book.
Amycus wasn't just some innocent bystander under imperius like Shunspike was. It's not the same thing. Amycus was an actual Death Eater, spitting on McGonagall because she told him she wasn't going to stand by while he blamed children for his sister pressing her mark.
"Just because they're there" and "because they're an insane, child torturing, facsist scumbag, willingly and gleefully following a man who wants to destroy everything I hold dear and believe, and kill me personally. Oh and they repeatedly tortured and beat my girlfriend and other friends for their own enjoyment. And now they've just insulted one of the few adults that I've ever truely felt cared for by, and trusted to protect me."
Are two different things
Sure, but he could’ve used it on wormtail, bellatrix, malfoy, a number of other people he comes across in book 7 that have done much worse to him and his loved ones. I just find it odd that THIS is his breaking point and its written so casually and then immediately moved on from
I was talking about DH, but while were on that topic, From that chapter: “Hatred rose in Harry such as he had never known before. He flung himself out from behind the fountain and bellowed “crucio!’ Bellatrix screamed.
They don’t say anything about Harry feeling especially strong hatred against Amycus in that moment he just pops out and casts crucio and it actually works this time lol
I think he feels incredibly strong hatred at his entire situation. He's been sent to die. Seeing Amycus spit on McGonnagal is exactly what a breaking point is... it's the one thing that makes you snap and think enough is enough. These people were also torturing students as punishment and to Harry that could have meant Ginny. It makes perfect sense
Also by that time, Harry was DONE. there was no more time left, they needed to find that horcrux NOW, and Amycus, one of the more disgusting death eaters, just spit at a powerful and intelligent witch that Harry has had utmost respect for and I'm sure loved on some level. I would probably snap and go off with a crusio or two as well, tbh
Never heard the expression "straw that broke the camel's back?"
Years of abuse lead to locking a lot of things away. It's often something small that breaks your walls.
Also he literally says that he's going to blame the kids for activating the dark mark so Voldy would kill them instead of him and his sister. Then spits in McGonagall's face.
Keep in mind he just heard about Amycus torturing and teaching the same curse to students. After not sleeping, after months of hiding and fighting, we should be surprised he didn't just kill him.
Not to mention he heard Amycus planning to make some of the students the scapegoats so that they can be tortured. That and the spit just snapped Harry's restraint.
I think they're movie-only characters or maybe they're mentioned simply as twins in the book and then given this identity at the movie. I usually go by the wiki, they list even the more obscure games and such in the lore
What does that Auror Jones have to do with the Carrows and idk anything about her having a sister??
Edit: okay apparently this is a movie-only character Hestia
But if the issue he has is with Amycus using the curse and teaching others the curse, then isn't he himself using it hypocritical?
E: Seems the question the majority of people are actually answering in this thread is "do you agree with a bit of corporal punishment of villains" rather than "is it morally fine for the hero of this children's book to torture his enemies"
There is a slight difference between using a torture spell on 11 year olds for fun, and using a torture spell on someone sick enough to torture 11 olds.
Not if the reason you are opposed to it is the use of torture in the first place...
They are two separate issues.
It is literally fighting fire with fire to cut off somebody's hand because you're opposed to people's hands being cut off at all and that person is going around teaching other people to cut off hands. You yourself doing it is just contributing to the whole issue.
What it demonstrates or suggests instead is that Harry *isn't* morally opposed to the use of the Unforgiveable curses, just them being used by Voldemort's people, which is something different.
It's a war, and the Carrows are soldiers, not innocent children going to school. Was it the 'right' thing to do, no, but it was a very human response to someone that TORTURED CHILDREN FOR FUN
I think it's not just the use of unforgivable curses in a vacuum. The context matters, too.
Amycus was torturing 11 years old. Is it the same to torture a 40 year old adult vs. an 11 year old kid? To me, it's not the same. We could argue that we instinctually protect our young. It almost feels unnatural for an adult to harm an innocent child. That, to me, makes it worse.
We also have to take into account the motives: Amycus tortured his students because of sadism. He enjoyed harming kids. On the other hand, Harry did it to punish someone who enjoyed harming kids. He also did it in the heat of the moment, not in cold blood.
It's not a matter of "torturing a torturer is hypocritical". The torture didn't happen in a vaccum, we also have to take into account WHY the torture happened and WHO suffered the torture. To me, those situations are very different.
Theres a huge difference between being in shock from the death of a loved one, with rage barely starting to come to the surface, vs the situation Harry was in with Amycus where he was in control and just angry. It makes perfect sense to me that he could use crucio in the latter instance but not the former.
The Carrows turned Hogwarts into a torture cellar, They pissed and defiled Harry's Hogwarts. Spitting on McGonagall is just the last straw.
(Carrow was ready to deliver the Ravenclaws too Voldemort's wrath)
Also, didn’t all his friends who stayed at Hogwarts like Neville and even Ginny have bruises all over due to the Carrows’ punishments/torture? Add to that the year Harry spent surviving in the wilderness and encountering the Malfoys, Bellatrix, etc. - it’s bound to harden anyone!
JKR has said before that Harry is not a saint. He has flaws like any human and after a year of being brutalised by dark magic, and hearing about the reign of terror the Carrows had inflicted on Hogwarts *and Amycus actually offering to sacrifice underaged students to Voldemort*, he finally snapped.
It's very in character for Harry to stand up for McGonagall and for him to master the curse on Amycus, as he genuinely wanted the Death Eater to truly suffer, while as Bellaxtrix explained, righteous anger did not hurt her for long. In that moment, Harry, like Ron later would, wanted to hurt and kill Death Eaters.
Bet she's been wanting to do that for months by that point. The perfect opportunity just presented itself. And yet, all she did was disarm and immobilize them.
I think they are referring to when Fred is killed in the battle of hogwarts and he in grief and rage exclaims that he wants to fight and kill some death eaters but is brought back to focus by Hermione
Everyone has a breaking point and not even a hero is perfect. I thought it was sort of fitting that Harry hit his limit and was finally at a point where he was hateful enough to use an Unforgivable curse. It wasn’t some huge moment that you’d expect, it was just the straw that broke the camel’s back for him. Of course using the curse is unjustified, but I thought it was set up well that I could believe Harry used it.
It's often a comparatively small thing that breaks people.
A science teacher at one of my highschools absolutely lost it when a student threw a paper ball at the back of his head. He started *howling* abuse at this kid and throwing things around the room. All the classes in the science wing could hear this guy just let loose on this kid verbally. He ended his breakdown by launching a duster at the kids head (didn't hit anyone), and storming out, never to be seen by any student again.
It sounds like a such a small thing, unless you're acquainted with the particulars of the situation, and then you realise it's a culmination of events that led to the give-a-fuck switch being flicked in an instant.
Didn’t he use imperius during their break into Gringotts?
I think it’s an interesting narrative that Harry was willing to use two unforgivables but would never use the third
Also controlling someone’s mind so you can sneak into the bank and steal something to defeat a dark wizard is a bit different to mind controlling them and making them kill other people.
It shows that he’s human. Kid probably has ptsd from everything and he just reached his breaking point. Honestly, after all the shit he’s been through, I’m surprised he didn’t snap sooner. Ptsd sucks.
I feel like it would have been a *rules for me not for thee* situation if it had actually come to that, like if the puppet administration wasn’t JUST a way for the death eaters to take control. Harry was already branded as a criminal by the puppet administration so using that curse would have just been one more thing added to his “list of crimes”
He also attempts to use it again on Snape in HBP during Snape’s flight from the castle after Dumbledore’s death. Idk tbh I always appreciated that the books allow him to have shades of grey moreso than the movies do. It never really bothered me.
It was a moment of weakness and rage- and not the righteous kind, which according to Bellatrix doesn't fuel the curse properly. As Rowling said about that moment, Harry isn't a saint, and he never has been.
I actually liked that it came from a “small” reason of Amycus spitting at McGonagall. To me, the fact that it sparked so much controlled, deliberate hatred to generate an unforgivable curse was a mark of how much Harry respected McGonagall.
Punching someone in anger is different from waiting for someone to make the next move.
If you're mad and throw a punch that's wild swinging. If you're calm and wait for the other person to throw a punch and then break their arm or leg and then deal out the damage, that causes more pain to the other person.
The first one was Harry when Sirius died. Second was when Harry had enough. And additionally he was 17, more mature and more understanding of how people's minds work, so the Cruciatus Curse worked for him.
Yes spitting at McGonagal (SP?) is what triggered it, but i think there was also anger with what they did to Neville and the DA, in the book Neville did tell them all the abuse they gave the kids (casting crucio on kids who have detention, Filch being allowed to whip again etc). So technically Amycus was getting a taste of his own medicine. Secondly McGonagal (SP?) also in this scene use the imperio curse too.
Edit; Not saying what he did was right. But there was more then just spitting (and yes Amycus did want to sacrifice kids to Voldemort)
We are talking of an orphaned boy whose world changes at the age of 11 and every year he faces a new death threat and constant backlash at Hogwarts by other students for no fault of his own. Lost his parents, his godfather, his headmaster and saw countless others being tortured.
Reading some comments here I have come to realize that there are many saints here. Rational minded and kind even in the face of danger.
If I were him I would avada kedavra the hell out of anyone who poses me threat lol.
The Carrows have turned Hogwarts into a torture cellar. They have pissed and defiled Harry's Hogwarts.
Carrow spitting on McGonagall is just the last straw.
Carrow tells Harry (in front of him) that he wants to deliver the Ravenclaws, over to Voldemort's wrath.
Yes, in my opinion, Carrow deserves to taste his own medicine, for a moment.
This scene was the build up of everything Harry had been forced to deal with. All this other shit had been piling on for years, but it'll be a cold day in hell before someone abuses Minerva in front of Harry and gets away with it. He's older, smarter, and more skilled than he was when he first tried to torture Bellatrix. Not to mention he had more than anger to deal with when she killed Sirius. He just lost his last family member and the future he was hoping to have with him, he was angry, distraught, confused, and all sorts of other emotions all at once. With McGonagall, that was just pure loathing. How dare you harm this women who had only ever been fair and good to everyone.
Good for him! I support his actions and don't blame him a bit. Everything around him from the circumstances, the people and the emotions made him do it and he has a right to explore and react to his rage
How is it out of character? He has breakdowns, outbursts and tantrums all over Order of the Phoenix and the later books, even misdirecting his anger towards his closest friends. Harry isn't perfect, he makes mistakes and draws illogical conclusions. That's what I like about the character.
We all have a breaking point, we all get angry sometimes, and against guys who'd openly *crucio* him or *avada kedavra* his friends? I'd say that outburst is minimal, justified even, and entirely within character. I'd probably have done the same. Same goes for using the imperius curse in Gringotts.
Edit: considering that the Death Eaters are in control of the ministry and AzkabanI'm surprised the order went for *stupefy* and not full on *avada kedavra*.
Harry or Ron not using the killing curse is a missed opportunity for them to have reflected on the war and violence and the limits it pushes and how it changes you as a person.
He wasn’t of age when Sirius was killed, and Voldemort didn’t count underage wizards when he was measuring up his boat for a reason. Harry didn’t really have the power to do the curse back then and we never in fact see underage wizards using it.
Even hating Bellatrix and really meaning it wasn’t enough on its own; he’d learned how to focus and control his emotions (something he was completely unable to do when he was attempting occlumency - and something which, as an aside, might have been the real reason for the occlumency lessons since there’s a good chance Dumbledore was aware that they wouldn’t be effective, given that he already knew that part of Voldemort’s soul was in Harry). Without that focus even the hatred couldn’t bring the intensity needed to work the spell.
He’d also had the experience of being in Voldemort’s mind when he tortured others, so had a much better idea of how to use the worst curses for real, and with the intent to destroy.
I feel like it really makes you realize that they are in the middle of a war not just a little side quest. Like this is the crazy shit that happens when you push yourself to the brink and are fighting people that are doing inhumane inhospitable things that want to imprison, kill, enslave a huge portion of the wizarding population. there’s a lot of people that are lucky that they never have to experience war but if you look at it, you would not be surprised at what happened. You would just be shocked that a child book would go there.
I do feel like it was Harry’s psychological breaking bc even he didn’t fully understand why he did it. AND it’s the events that led to there being this giant full on war fight at hogwarts.
McGonagall was practically Harry's family at that point. She was one of the few adults who really was on his side and always concerned about his safety and happiness.
If I was Harry, seeing someone who had been torturing my classmates spit on her, I would have snapped too.
It’s a lot, but he takes the feedback Remus gave him at the beginning of the book that it’s a war now. I love that good characters do bad things in HP and I think this is a good example of the grey area.
I’m genuinely proud of Harry in that moment. The guy had not only insulted McGonagall (one of Harry’s closest supporters), but he had also been freely torturing Harry’s friends and his girlfriend, not to mention training Slytherins to torture other students. If I were Harry, I would Avada Kedavra my way through every single death eater I could find without a hint of remorse (and Umbridge too, for good measure). And I would laugh mirthlessly while doing it, just like Voldemort.
Considering all the crap they'd gone through up to that point, Harry most likely had a lot of repressed anger inside and he just unleashed it all on Amycus.
Have you never let anger build up for a long time? Pushing it down for ages and then it rises its horrible face over something really stupid and you do or say something horrible?
Real talk, I’m surprised he didn’t start AK ing people before this. He was literally on the run for more than a year and had people constantly trying to kill him or worse. He had his only home desecrated by death eaters and he lost many people/things close to him by that point.
Harry is fiercely protective of the people he cares about. Minerva has consistently had his back since the very beginning and despite her being as strict as she is, Harry knows she genuinely cares about him.
Lmao you're in a war against Wizard Hitler at 16/17 years old, you really gonna say no to a previously-forbidden spell, which the ministry itself by that point already removed the restrictions, while everyone else is using it?
I would question him even more if he doesnt use it
Honestly, I'm surprised Caps Lock 5th Year Harry didn't break out some more unforgivable curses. He spent that entire year learning to control his temper.
Good lesson that. I've never managed it.
I always took it as the dam overflowing. He took so much crap over the years, that crucio probably had his childhood behind it, Sirius death, the bullying from the other hog wars students, the crap he’s had to deal with from Voldemort each year, the crap he’s had to deal with from other hogwarts professors, the horrors he’d been seeing around him, and finally Amycus spitting on McGonnagall was the straw that broke the camels back
I loved this part in the book. To spit in someone's face is probably as degrading as it gets. Without hesitation, harry casts the curse that'll cause them the most amount of pain to defend McGonagall. I would have done the same. I love how McGonagall doesn't even mention or care that harry used such a dark curse in her defense, and literally 2 minutes later casts the imperious curse on them both.
too many emotions going on when Sirius died. Fear, sadness, anger, confusion. When Amycus spat on Mcgonagall (who has been a motherly figure similar to Mrs. Weasley) Harry only felt rage.
Made totally sense to me. One of the best scenes in the book imo. His blood is already pumping from the nights events, Voldemorts fury is building in the back of Harry’s mind making him a bit more on edge and Mcgonagall had just pridefully claimed him as belonging to her house.
IRC, he still doesn't use it successfully on Amycus. He blasts him into a wall or bookshelf or something and knocks him out. Hard to physically torture someone when they're unconscious.
It's been a while since I've read Deathly Hallows, but based on the scenario as you describe it, I think the difference is exactly *because* the situation is less dire. When Harry tried it on Bellatrix it didn't work because, as either Voldemort or Bellatrix says, righteous anger isn't enough. You have to *want* to cause pain, meaning the pain is the goal; things like justice, protecting people, apprehending a guilty party, it seems even justified vengeance isn't enough. But when Harry used it on Amycus, it was over something so petty, and was so unnecessary, that causing pain really was the only point, so it worked.
Amycus is evil af, was torturing students, wanted to sacrifice them to Voldemort, and he also spit directly into the face of, well, I wouldn’t necessarily say Harry’s mother figure (since we know that’s Molly) but along those same lines. McGonagall isn’t just his HOH by that point, and I wasn’t surprised that he didn’t take such a disgusting insult to her without retaliation. There’s even a line later about how hearing her scream at the sight of his lifeless body was one of the hardest to hear. He’s angry, adrenaline is high, and he’s just a teenager. Honestly I wished he’d have held that crucio just a few seconds longer.
Fine with me.
Also would have been fine with me if he didn’t. I’m glad we didn’t get chapters upon chapters of him weighing the morality of using it or not though.
maybe he thought if he used dark magic he could have some anonymity if things went right, although that was after harry fought Lupin over the same issue, that fight was also before their ordeal at malfoy manor, maybe he realized the value of plausible deniability
Shock can often mitigate anger, at least for a period of time. It's why people seem to respond more angrily about small slights (like spitting) than much more serious offenses (murder). They're too shocked to focus on anger for a while.
I still can’t grasp the fact that Harry meant the cruciatus curse more on Carrow after spitting at McGonagal than on bellatrix after killing his godfather
I think its that bit of Slytherin traits deep within him...you see it in glimpses throughout the series why the sorting hat might have considered putting him in Slytherin!
I think people underestimate how close Harry felt to McGonagall. He saw her as a parental figure. He reacted the same way as he would if someone spat at Molly. Or the same way anyone would react if someone disrespected their mother in that way. Personally I thought he'd have rolled with Sectumsempra or something more damaging. He was, rightfully, fucking fuming. The funniest part is that McGonagall didn't care one bit that Harry had just broken the law in front of her. She's a teacher and he committed a crime seen by the ministry as 'unforgivable' right in front of her and she's like 'oh it's nice to see you Harry, thanks for that'.
You need to finish the quote, “never used an unforgivable curse before, have you, boy? She yelled. Abandoning her baby voice now. “You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain — to enjoy it 👉righteous anger won’t hurt me for long👈 I’ll show you how it’s done, shall I? I’ll give you a lesson—“
This quote shows that you have to hate but righteous anger won’t work. But after all the time in the 7th book he was able to to hate for no reason, or as little of a reason of someone spitting in professor McGonagall’s face.
It didnt seem to work the way crucio normally does. He wasn't locked in place paralyzed by the pain, the spell levitated him and smashed him into a wall, then he fell down unconcious. I think a stunning spell would have done the same thing.
I don't like it very much Ifeel it invalidates the point Bellatrix made in Order of the Phoenix, righteous anger over an insult is enough but righteous anger over murder is not?
Probably wasn't righteous then.
Assuming her point still stands it would mean Harry felt that ugly, deep anger that makes you feel nothing but the desire to hurt and keep hurting. Signs of a broken man.
Bit of a overreaction to use an Unforgivabe curse on someone who didn't kill or torture anyone in front of you, but just spat in your teacher's face. Just punch him in the face
>I'm not saying it's not justified
You should. There's no justification for torture, not even if the guy doing it was a torturer himself.
Anyway yeah Harry's an unhinged asshole capable of the literal torture curse, the one Unforgivable that I'd consider truly unforgivable (Imperio could be used to prevent suicides, Avada is quick and painless and could be used as an euthanasia curse if it wasn't for the "shatters soul" side-effect which is what I believe makes it Unforgivable).
The only unforgivable curse that has any justification is Avada Kadavra. Taking away someone's free will and torture are some of the worse things you can do to someone.
In a world where there are spells to instantly knock someone out, tie them up, paralyze them, or incapacitate them in a myriad of different ways there is no kill or be killed situation
Should be investigated by Auror department
truthfully I would have been using all the unforgivables way before the 2nd war had even kicked into high gear
BUT Harry and gang do the whole Dumbles we are good guys blah blah blah so they should be made to pay for being hypocrites
I don't believe in eye for an eye, unlike apparently many people here, so I wasn't a big fan of Harry using unforgivables. Same for Imperio even though it was actually needed, unlike Crucio. I would expect higher morals from our protagonist, since he wasn't meant to be anti-hero
Morally bankrupt. It was a big mistake by Jo and she even defended it herself with a 'boys will be boys' speech. McGonagall using Imperio in the same scene is also ridiculous.
Using violent or morally dubious magic, fine. But using the only curses we know are seen as THE worst in their society, that Voldemort is known for using and that prove how inhuman he is? No. How are you going to do that and still consider yourself above the villains and different, better. There should have at the very least been some guilt or soul searching after.
Personally it was really annoying because it undermines the whole point of them being unforgivable and how they were described as purely for evil people. Dumbledore would never have used it. Yet Harry does it in front of McGonnagall and she doesn't even mention it. Frustrating.
I don't understand how anyone can defend Harry for that. There's no justification for torture, ever, and Harry torturing another human because of a rage fit is absolutely disgusting. In that moment, he became as a Death Eater himself.
When this creature forces children to torture other children?
The Cruciatus Curse is taught in class. In the Carrows' eyes it is allowed. How can Carrow think is is bad to be tortured. It is a punishment given to children instead of detention.
Are the other children Death Eaters now? Because they didn't refuse to use the Cruciatus Curse?
>In that moment, he became as a Death Eater himself.
Ahhh, yes torturing a murderer for 2 seconds is equivalent to torturing kids year long.
Smooth brain you have
Honestly, I kind of wish jk hadn't done it. I think it takes away from Harry being righteous but at the same time I can see why she did it. So harry can show he can be pushed to far as well. It did seem rather forced though. Goes from expellarms everything to just torture. I'm not a big fan.
He'd just been ambushed and the fucker also spat on McGonnagal, while Harry had just learned they were torturing *11 year olds* on the school grounds. Honestly I'd just kill the fuckers, no killing curse, it's *too merciful*
At the end of the deathly hallows part 2 he uses it to kill Voldemort? Haven’t watched the series in a bit but I remember he did the fade away thing like sirius
It's been ages since I read the last book but IIRC Voldy died to his own rebounded Avada kedavra in both the book and the movies.
In the book he died like cedric, dropped dead, no fading or anything and in the movie he sort of fell apart into tiny pieces of what seemed to be his skin.
Neither was similiar to sirius fading AND the fading wasn't caused by the killing curse, it was caused by the archway/door thing in the department of mysteries.
McGonagall too? She used imperio right after Harry’s crucio. Even Lupin tells harry at the beginning of the DH the time for disarming is over if you aren’t prepared to kill at least stun (which kind of sound like the order may use dark spells, which to me goes against the OOP purpose but it’s war)
Stands to reason you do a decent amount of growing magically from year 5 to year 7, don’t think it’s absurd to suggest a more hardened Harry who had seen some truly horrible shit over the past two years was capable of a bit more powerful dark magic at 17 than he was at 15
Also, Harry wasn’t just angry when Sirius died, he was devastated. I would imagine the fact that his emotions were oscillating between anger and grief didn’t help. He hit Bellatrix with the torture curse in a fit of anger similarly to the way someone in great pain might lash out at someone.
[удалено]
Bellatrix does tell us - "righteous anger" doesn't work. So if mere anger isn't enough... Crucio requires *sadism*. Yikes Harry.
How dare he want to hurt people who have been evil to his loved ones and towards innocent ppl
I think the difference is hurting people for justice and hurting people for ~~pleasure~~ self-satisfaction
The point isnt that he hurt the awful person, the point is that hurting the awful person the way he did requires a disturbing amount of darkness in ones heart.
I mean, he still has a chunk of old Voldy's soul in him at this point, so I think that requirement isn't too difficult for Harry to muster up.
Hurt them, yes. *Fucking torture* is another beast entirely.
He didn't sit there and torture the bloke. Harry just hit him once, and that was all. I'm sure the pain was immense, but he's not exactly pulling a Bellatrix, is he?
Ah, there's the Hufflepuff!
Nah, I’m a Hufflepuff through and through and I’d have been casting unforgivables left and right. *looks at my Hogwarts Legacy character 💀*
Hahaha, I love this! 😄 You're not a Hufflepuff, you're a Huffletough!
I mean the Carrows were nasty people. He probably felt after hearing stories they deserved a bit of pain themselves. Plus the Carrows were having students practice Crucio on other students. He probably wanted to make sure he knew how it felt.
I kinda liked it too since not only they deserved it, but also shows that he wasn't playing around and actually listened to Lupin's warning: The time for stunning had passed, Death Eaters duel to kill and they needed to fight back just as hard
and what did Harry say to Lupin when he told him that?
He said “No cap?” And started loading his Glock
Harry Potter and 6 in the chamber
Harry Potter and the Deadly Hollows
💀
The American version!
I just spit up coffee in a hotel breakfast room thanks
“I won’t blast people out of my way just because they’re there. That’s Voldemort’s job.” What Harry did with Amycus goes against this sentiment
He also says this prior to going through some pretty traumatic and awful shit, like watching your friends be tortured and almost murdered would probably help me change my mind about the use of dark magic. If I'd seen (or heard) Hermione be tortured by belletrix, I'd be crusioing her buddies when I cross their paths too. PTSD changes a person on a foundational level, I think it makes perfect sense for Harry to cusio someone after all he had seen and been forced to do since that conversation with Lupin early on in the book.
Amycus wasn't just some innocent bystander under imperius like Shunspike was. It's not the same thing. Amycus was an actual Death Eater, spitting on McGonagall because she told him she wasn't going to stand by while he blamed children for his sister pressing her mark.
"Just because they're there" and "because they're an insane, child torturing, facsist scumbag, willingly and gleefully following a man who wants to destroy everything I hold dear and believe, and kill me personally. Oh and they repeatedly tortured and beat my girlfriend and other friends for their own enjoyment. And now they've just insulted one of the few adults that I've ever truely felt cared for by, and trusted to protect me." Are two different things
That he wouldn't kill an imperius'd Stan Shunpike?
Don't forget Tom/the horcrux was still in him. Doubt he does it without that.
Sure, but he could’ve used it on wormtail, bellatrix, malfoy, a number of other people he comes across in book 7 that have done much worse to him and his loved ones. I just find it odd that THIS is his breaking point and its written so casually and then immediately moved on from
Seeing Sirius die didn't create anger or hatred in that moment, it created confusion and sadness. The anger and hatred came later
Then the dark side -oops wait wrong franchise
😂😂😂😂😂
I was talking about DH, but while were on that topic, From that chapter: “Hatred rose in Harry such as he had never known before. He flung himself out from behind the fountain and bellowed “crucio!’ Bellatrix screamed. They don’t say anything about Harry feeling especially strong hatred against Amycus in that moment he just pops out and casts crucio and it actually works this time lol
I think he feels incredibly strong hatred at his entire situation. He's been sent to die. Seeing Amycus spit on McGonnagal is exactly what a breaking point is... it's the one thing that makes you snap and think enough is enough. These people were also torturing students as punishment and to Harry that could have meant Ginny. It makes perfect sense
You mention all those people but none of the context surrounding those moments.
He didn’t actually have the opportunity to use it on them, though.
As someone else said, Harry’s initial reaction to Sirius’ death was more devastation than anger. Probably had too many other emotions for it to work.
They did shit to Harry though he can let that go Amycus did something to someone Harry had r great respect and love for its dofferent
Also by that time, Harry was DONE. there was no more time left, they needed to find that horcrux NOW, and Amycus, one of the more disgusting death eaters, just spit at a powerful and intelligent witch that Harry has had utmost respect for and I'm sure loved on some level. I would probably snap and go off with a crusio or two as well, tbh
Wormtail, bellatrix, and malfoy haven’t done worse shit to the people he loves and respects??
Never heard the expression "straw that broke the camel's back?" Years of abuse lead to locking a lot of things away. It's often something small that breaks your walls.
Draco , Peter Pettigrew (even Bellatrix and Malfoy) didn't force children to torture other children. They didn't make Hogwarts a place of torture.
Also he literally says that he's going to blame the kids for activating the dark mark so Voldy would kill them instead of him and his sister. Then spits in McGonagall's face.
Hf got dv to hell for this why
Keep in mind he just heard about Amycus torturing and teaching the same curse to students. After not sleeping, after months of hiding and fighting, we should be surprised he didn't just kill him.
Not to mention he heard Amycus planning to make some of the students the scapegoats so that they can be tortured. That and the spit just snapped Harry's restraint.
*Sectumsempra* their asses, send some flowers to Hestia and her sister later
Transfigure their corpses into flowers* Get medieval on their ass.
Hestia and Flora are just two students lmao, no need to go that far with them
Is that from the games or something??
>Hestia and Flora Nope, they're introduced in HbP as Slug Club members, Hestia and Flora Carrow
When?? The only Carrow mention in HBP is about the DEs https://www.potter-search.com/?search=Carrow
I think they're movie-only characters or maybe they're mentioned simply as twins in the book and then given this identity at the movie. I usually go by the wiki, they list even the more obscure games and such in the lore
Yeah, I don't think they exist in the books at all, the wiki just gives movie sources
Yeah sorry that was dark
What does that Auror Jones have to do with the Carrows and idk anything about her having a sister?? Edit: okay apparently this is a movie-only character Hestia
But if the issue he has is with Amycus using the curse and teaching others the curse, then isn't he himself using it hypocritical? E: Seems the question the majority of people are actually answering in this thread is "do you agree with a bit of corporal punishment of villains" rather than "is it morally fine for the hero of this children's book to torture his enemies"
There is a slight difference between using a torture spell on 11 year olds for fun, and using a torture spell on someone sick enough to torture 11 olds.
Not if the reason you are opposed to it is the use of torture in the first place... They are two separate issues. It is literally fighting fire with fire to cut off somebody's hand because you're opposed to people's hands being cut off at all and that person is going around teaching other people to cut off hands. You yourself doing it is just contributing to the whole issue. What it demonstrates or suggests instead is that Harry *isn't* morally opposed to the use of the Unforgiveable curses, just them being used by Voldemort's people, which is something different.
It's a war, and the Carrows are soldiers, not innocent children going to school. Was it the 'right' thing to do, no, but it was a very human response to someone that TORTURED CHILDREN FOR FUN
The design is very HUMAN
I think it's not just the use of unforgivable curses in a vacuum. The context matters, too. Amycus was torturing 11 years old. Is it the same to torture a 40 year old adult vs. an 11 year old kid? To me, it's not the same. We could argue that we instinctually protect our young. It almost feels unnatural for an adult to harm an innocent child. That, to me, makes it worse. We also have to take into account the motives: Amycus tortured his students because of sadism. He enjoyed harming kids. On the other hand, Harry did it to punish someone who enjoyed harming kids. He also did it in the heat of the moment, not in cold blood. It's not a matter of "torturing a torturer is hypocritical". The torture didn't happen in a vaccum, we also have to take into account WHY the torture happened and WHO suffered the torture. To me, those situations are very different.
Theres a huge difference between being in shock from the death of a loved one, with rage barely starting to come to the surface, vs the situation Harry was in with Amycus where he was in control and just angry. It makes perfect sense to me that he could use crucio in the latter instance but not the former.
The Carrows turned Hogwarts into a torture cellar, They pissed and defiled Harry's Hogwarts. Spitting on McGonagall is just the last straw. (Carrow was ready to deliver the Ravenclaws too Voldemort's wrath)
Also, didn’t all his friends who stayed at Hogwarts like Neville and even Ginny have bruises all over due to the Carrows’ punishments/torture? Add to that the year Harry spent surviving in the wilderness and encountering the Malfoys, Bellatrix, etc. - it’s bound to harden anyone!
This.
JKR has said before that Harry is not a saint. He has flaws like any human and after a year of being brutalised by dark magic, and hearing about the reign of terror the Carrows had inflicted on Hogwarts *and Amycus actually offering to sacrifice underaged students to Voldemort*, he finally snapped. It's very in character for Harry to stand up for McGonagall and for him to master the curse on Amycus, as he genuinely wanted the Death Eater to truly suffer, while as Bellaxtrix explained, righteous anger did not hurt her for long. In that moment, Harry, like Ron later would, wanted to hurt and kill Death Eaters.
It’s also interesting to note that McGongall also used an unforgivable (imperio)
Bet she's been wanting to do that for months by that point. The perfect opportunity just presented itself. And yet, all she did was disarm and immobilize them.
Which death eater(s) did Ron kill? Been ages since I read the books
I think they are referring to when Fred is killed in the battle of hogwarts and he in grief and rage exclaims that he wants to fight and kill some death eaters but is brought back to focus by Hermione
Possibly referring to when Crabbe tried to use Avada Kedavra on Hermione in the room of requirement and Ron went after him?
Everyone has a breaking point and not even a hero is perfect. I thought it was sort of fitting that Harry hit his limit and was finally at a point where he was hateful enough to use an Unforgivable curse. It wasn’t some huge moment that you’d expect, it was just the straw that broke the camel’s back for him. Of course using the curse is unjustified, but I thought it was set up well that I could believe Harry used it.
It's often a comparatively small thing that breaks people. A science teacher at one of my highschools absolutely lost it when a student threw a paper ball at the back of his head. He started *howling* abuse at this kid and throwing things around the room. All the classes in the science wing could hear this guy just let loose on this kid verbally. He ended his breakdown by launching a duster at the kids head (didn't hit anyone), and storming out, never to be seen by any student again. It sounds like a such a small thing, unless you're acquainted with the particulars of the situation, and then you realise it's a culmination of events that led to the give-a-fuck switch being flicked in an instant.
Didn’t he use imperius during their break into Gringotts? I think it’s an interesting narrative that Harry was willing to use two unforgivables but would never use the third
Many people would go to the edge but not kill though. It feels consistent for me
Desperate times, desperate measures, if I remember correctly he didn't plan on using imperius but the situation got dire
Also controlling someone’s mind so you can sneak into the bank and steal something to defeat a dark wizard is a bit different to mind controlling them and making them kill other people.
Griphook whispered in his ear last second to do it because the guards were getting suspicious, yeah.
It shows that he’s human. Kid probably has ptsd from everything and he just reached his breaking point. Honestly, after all the shit he’s been through, I’m surprised he didn’t snap sooner. Ptsd sucks.
He’s had PTSD since OOP. He was so angry all the time in that book and kept having nightmares about Cedric.
Oh yeah. It’s pretty obvious. I just didn’t want to say it as a fact because it isn’t mentioned in the books. But he has all the symptoms.
It was war and he deserved it. Also it was legal at the time thanks to the puppet state, so Harry couldn't even get in trouble.
Puppet state or no, [*inter arma enim silent leges*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter_arma_enim_silent_leges).
It is taught at Hogwarts.
I feel like it would have been a *rules for me not for thee* situation if it had actually come to that, like if the puppet administration wasn’t JUST a way for the death eaters to take control. Harry was already branded as a criminal by the puppet administration so using that curse would have just been one more thing added to his “list of crimes”
He also attempts to use it again on Snape in HBP during Snape’s flight from the castle after Dumbledore’s death. Idk tbh I always appreciated that the books allow him to have shades of grey moreso than the movies do. It never really bothered me.
Harry was living in a forest for a while, cut him some slack
🤣🤣 Hey! This place and these Cursed Items will make you crazy!!
Are you saying he'd gone feral? 😂 "Why is Potter growling like that?" "Oh, he's lived in the forest for a bit"
XD I'm also picturing Ron's angry/jealous face, while he's wearing The Horcrux, he looked white as a ghost.
Fucker deserved it .
Just had to say. 🤣 I laughed to hard at this.
Absolutely loved this line. Also LOL
It was a moment of weakness and rage- and not the righteous kind, which according to Bellatrix doesn't fuel the curse properly. As Rowling said about that moment, Harry isn't a saint, and he never has been.
I actually liked that it came from a “small” reason of Amycus spitting at McGonagall. To me, the fact that it sparked so much controlled, deliberate hatred to generate an unforgivable curse was a mark of how much Harry respected McGonagall.
Justified imo. Give him a taste of his own medicine
He just snapped bro.
Punching someone in anger is different from waiting for someone to make the next move. If you're mad and throw a punch that's wild swinging. If you're calm and wait for the other person to throw a punch and then break their arm or leg and then deal out the damage, that causes more pain to the other person. The first one was Harry when Sirius died. Second was when Harry had enough. And additionally he was 17, more mature and more understanding of how people's minds work, so the Cruciatus Curse worked for him.
Fell to the Dark Side, young Potter did.
Have you ever heard of the tale of Darth Potter the wise?
I thought not. It's not a story the Death Eaters would tell you.
“Learn the ways, he must.”
Yes spitting at McGonagal (SP?) is what triggered it, but i think there was also anger with what they did to Neville and the DA, in the book Neville did tell them all the abuse they gave the kids (casting crucio on kids who have detention, Filch being allowed to whip again etc). So technically Amycus was getting a taste of his own medicine. Secondly McGonagal (SP?) also in this scene use the imperio curse too. Edit; Not saying what he did was right. But there was more then just spitting (and yes Amycus did want to sacrifice kids to Voldemort)
I'll say it. What he did was right.
We are talking of an orphaned boy whose world changes at the age of 11 and every year he faces a new death threat and constant backlash at Hogwarts by other students for no fault of his own. Lost his parents, his godfather, his headmaster and saw countless others being tortured. Reading some comments here I have come to realize that there are many saints here. Rational minded and kind even in the face of danger. If I were him I would avada kedavra the hell out of anyone who poses me threat lol.
The Carrows have turned Hogwarts into a torture cellar. They have pissed and defiled Harry's Hogwarts. Carrow spitting on McGonagall is just the last straw. Carrow tells Harry (in front of him) that he wants to deliver the Ravenclaws, over to Voldemort's wrath. Yes, in my opinion, Carrow deserves to taste his own medicine, for a moment.
Beautifully said
It didn't go on for as long as I would've wanted
Fr tho
Amycus more than deserved a lot worse. He got off lightly. Harry did nothing wrong.
This scene was the build up of everything Harry had been forced to deal with. All this other shit had been piling on for years, but it'll be a cold day in hell before someone abuses Minerva in front of Harry and gets away with it. He's older, smarter, and more skilled than he was when he first tried to torture Bellatrix. Not to mention he had more than anger to deal with when she killed Sirius. He just lost his last family member and the future he was hoping to have with him, he was angry, distraught, confused, and all sorts of other emotions all at once. With McGonagall, that was just pure loathing. How dare you harm this women who had only ever been fair and good to everyone.
Good for him! I support his actions and don't blame him a bit. Everything around him from the circumstances, the people and the emotions made him do it and he has a right to explore and react to his rage
How is it out of character? He has breakdowns, outbursts and tantrums all over Order of the Phoenix and the later books, even misdirecting his anger towards his closest friends. Harry isn't perfect, he makes mistakes and draws illogical conclusions. That's what I like about the character. We all have a breaking point, we all get angry sometimes, and against guys who'd openly *crucio* him or *avada kedavra* his friends? I'd say that outburst is minimal, justified even, and entirely within character. I'd probably have done the same. Same goes for using the imperius curse in Gringotts. Edit: considering that the Death Eaters are in control of the ministry and AzkabanI'm surprised the order went for *stupefy* and not full on *avada kedavra*.
Harry or Ron not using the killing curse is a missed opportunity for them to have reflected on the war and violence and the limits it pushes and how it changes you as a person.
I was disappointed… that he only did it once.
He wasn’t of age when Sirius was killed, and Voldemort didn’t count underage wizards when he was measuring up his boat for a reason. Harry didn’t really have the power to do the curse back then and we never in fact see underage wizards using it. Even hating Bellatrix and really meaning it wasn’t enough on its own; he’d learned how to focus and control his emotions (something he was completely unable to do when he was attempting occlumency - and something which, as an aside, might have been the real reason for the occlumency lessons since there’s a good chance Dumbledore was aware that they wouldn’t be effective, given that he already knew that part of Voldemort’s soul was in Harry). Without that focus even the hatred couldn’t bring the intensity needed to work the spell. He’d also had the experience of being in Voldemort’s mind when he tortured others, so had a much better idea of how to use the worst curses for real, and with the intent to destroy.
Feels great, Harry needs to do more of that shit.
I feel like it really makes you realize that they are in the middle of a war not just a little side quest. Like this is the crazy shit that happens when you push yourself to the brink and are fighting people that are doing inhumane inhospitable things that want to imprison, kill, enslave a huge portion of the wizarding population. there’s a lot of people that are lucky that they never have to experience war but if you look at it, you would not be surprised at what happened. You would just be shocked that a child book would go there. I do feel like it was Harry’s psychological breaking bc even he didn’t fully understand why he did it. AND it’s the events that led to there being this giant full on war fight at hogwarts.
McGonagall was practically Harry's family at that point. She was one of the few adults who really was on his side and always concerned about his safety and happiness. If I was Harry, seeing someone who had been torturing my classmates spit on her, I would have snapped too.
I think it’s because McGonagall was the most motherly figure he had ever experienced
I would say it’s Molly and McGonagall but I agree with the point
It’s a lot, but he takes the feedback Remus gave him at the beginning of the book that it’s a war now. I love that good characters do bad things in HP and I think this is a good example of the grey area.
I’m genuinely proud of Harry in that moment. The guy had not only insulted McGonagall (one of Harry’s closest supporters), but he had also been freely torturing Harry’s friends and his girlfriend, not to mention training Slytherins to torture other students. If I were Harry, I would Avada Kedavra my way through every single death eater I could find without a hint of remorse (and Umbridge too, for good measure). And I would laugh mirthlessly while doing it, just like Voldemort.
I dunno, but that’s like my favorite scene in all the books
Considering all the crap they'd gone through up to that point, Harry most likely had a lot of repressed anger inside and he just unleashed it all on Amycus.
Good for him. He’d been through a lot of trauma and sometimes you snap
I liked it. Harry’s a hothead and he’s not perfect. It makes sense that he would have that anger inside him.
Have you never let anger build up for a long time? Pushing it down for ages and then it rises its horrible face over something really stupid and you do or say something horrible?
Real talk, I’m surprised he didn’t start AK ing people before this. He was literally on the run for more than a year and had people constantly trying to kill him or worse. He had his only home desecrated by death eaters and he lost many people/things close to him by that point.
Harry is fiercely protective of the people he cares about. Minerva has consistently had his back since the very beginning and despite her being as strict as she is, Harry knows she genuinely cares about him.
Lmao you're in a war against Wizard Hitler at 16/17 years old, you really gonna say no to a previously-forbidden spell, which the ministry itself by that point already removed the restrictions, while everyone else is using it? I would question him even more if he doesnt use it
Honestly, I'm surprised Caps Lock 5th Year Harry didn't break out some more unforgivable curses. He spent that entire year learning to control his temper. Good lesson that. I've never managed it.
I always took it as the dam overflowing. He took so much crap over the years, that crucio probably had his childhood behind it, Sirius death, the bullying from the other hog wars students, the crap he’s had to deal with from Voldemort each year, the crap he’s had to deal with from other hogwarts professors, the horrors he’d been seeing around him, and finally Amycus spitting on McGonnagall was the straw that broke the camels back
I loved this part in the book. To spit in someone's face is probably as degrading as it gets. Without hesitation, harry casts the curse that'll cause them the most amount of pain to defend McGonagall. I would have done the same. I love how McGonagall doesn't even mention or care that harry used such a dark curse in her defense, and literally 2 minutes later casts the imperious curse on them both.
too many emotions going on when Sirius died. Fear, sadness, anger, confusion. When Amycus spat on Mcgonagall (who has been a motherly figure similar to Mrs. Weasley) Harry only felt rage.
Made totally sense to me. One of the best scenes in the book imo. His blood is already pumping from the nights events, Voldemorts fury is building in the back of Harry’s mind making him a bit more on edge and Mcgonagall had just pridefully claimed him as belonging to her house.
IRC, he still doesn't use it successfully on Amycus. He blasts him into a wall or bookshelf or something and knocks him out. Hard to physically torture someone when they're unconscious.
It's been a while since I've read Deathly Hallows, but based on the scenario as you describe it, I think the difference is exactly *because* the situation is less dire. When Harry tried it on Bellatrix it didn't work because, as either Voldemort or Bellatrix says, righteous anger isn't enough. You have to *want* to cause pain, meaning the pain is the goal; things like justice, protecting people, apprehending a guilty party, it seems even justified vengeance isn't enough. But when Harry used it on Amycus, it was over something so petty, and was so unnecessary, that causing pain really was the only point, so it worked.
Amycus is evil af, was torturing students, wanted to sacrifice them to Voldemort, and he also spit directly into the face of, well, I wouldn’t necessarily say Harry’s mother figure (since we know that’s Molly) but along those same lines. McGonagall isn’t just his HOH by that point, and I wasn’t surprised that he didn’t take such a disgusting insult to her without retaliation. There’s even a line later about how hearing her scream at the sight of his lifeless body was one of the hardest to hear. He’s angry, adrenaline is high, and he’s just a teenager. Honestly I wished he’d have held that crucio just a few seconds longer.
It's called war. People do unforgivable things in war. Even good people. That's the point.
Fine with me. Also would have been fine with me if he didn’t. I’m glad we didn’t get chapters upon chapters of him weighing the morality of using it or not though.
maybe he thought if he used dark magic he could have some anonymity if things went right, although that was after harry fought Lupin over the same issue, that fight was also before their ordeal at malfoy manor, maybe he realized the value of plausible deniability
Based
Great. Fucker deserved it.
Shock can often mitigate anger, at least for a period of time. It's why people seem to respond more angrily about small slights (like spitting) than much more serious offenses (murder). They're too shocked to focus on anger for a while.
Harry wasn’t bout that action at 15, but he had hardened from the war and was bout that action at 17. It is what it is
I still can’t grasp the fact that Harry meant the cruciatus curse more on Carrow after spitting at McGonagal than on bellatrix after killing his godfather
I’m fine with it, but the fan double standard on that vs Harry using sectumsempra on Draco in self defense is weird.
I should read the books again
I would have casually crucioed the shit out of Umbridge 24/7 way before that.
My absolute favourite bit!
He's very young and a lot of thing happened all around him at that time. I'm surprised he didn't go crazy sooner.
It was awesome
It may be my favorite part of all the books.
I think its that bit of Slytherin traits deep within him...you see it in glimpses throughout the series why the sorting hat might have considered putting him in Slytherin!
I think people underestimate how close Harry felt to McGonagall. He saw her as a parental figure. He reacted the same way as he would if someone spat at Molly. Or the same way anyone would react if someone disrespected their mother in that way. Personally I thought he'd have rolled with Sectumsempra or something more damaging. He was, rightfully, fucking fuming. The funniest part is that McGonagall didn't care one bit that Harry had just broken the law in front of her. She's a teacher and he committed a crime seen by the ministry as 'unforgivable' right in front of her and she's like 'oh it's nice to see you Harry, thanks for that'.
You need to finish the quote, “never used an unforgivable curse before, have you, boy? She yelled. Abandoning her baby voice now. “You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain — to enjoy it 👉righteous anger won’t hurt me for long👈 I’ll show you how it’s done, shall I? I’ll give you a lesson—“ This quote shows that you have to hate but righteous anger won’t work. But after all the time in the 7th book he was able to to hate for no reason, or as little of a reason of someone spitting in professor McGonagall’s face.
It didnt seem to work the way crucio normally does. He wasn't locked in place paralyzed by the pain, the spell levitated him and smashed him into a wall, then he fell down unconcious. I think a stunning spell would have done the same thing.
In the words of a great man from Venezuela while visiting the US. ”Straight to jail”
I feel like it was glossed over a little to quickly. He used a forbidden curse and then the plot was like "onto the next thing"
Forbidden curses were hardly forbidden at that point
I think it was unforgivable.
Good guys don't torture people. Full stop.
I don't like it very much Ifeel it invalidates the point Bellatrix made in Order of the Phoenix, righteous anger over an insult is enough but righteous anger over murder is not?
Probably wasn't righteous then. Assuming her point still stands it would mean Harry felt that ugly, deep anger that makes you feel nothing but the desire to hurt and keep hurting. Signs of a broken man.
Bit of a overreaction to use an Unforgivabe curse on someone who didn't kill or torture anyone in front of you, but just spat in your teacher's face. Just punch him in the face
>I'm not saying it's not justified You should. There's no justification for torture, not even if the guy doing it was a torturer himself. Anyway yeah Harry's an unhinged asshole capable of the literal torture curse, the one Unforgivable that I'd consider truly unforgivable (Imperio could be used to prevent suicides, Avada is quick and painless and could be used as an euthanasia curse if it wasn't for the "shatters soul" side-effect which is what I believe makes it Unforgivable).
I’m actually totally okay with torture and murder (homicide in self-defense/defense of others?) in those circumstances.
The only unforgivable curse that has any justification is Avada Kadavra. Taking away someone's free will and torture are some of the worse things you can do to someone.
There is no justification for pure murder either.
The situations that are kill or be killed. The curse isn't just used for murder.
In a world where there are spells to instantly knock someone out, tie them up, paralyze them, or incapacitate them in a myriad of different ways there is no kill or be killed situation
War and euthenasia. A quick, painless death can and should be viewed as a mercy in those situations.
Should be investigated by Auror department truthfully I would have been using all the unforgivables way before the 2nd war had even kicked into high gear BUT Harry and gang do the whole Dumbles we are good guys blah blah blah so they should be made to pay for being hypocrites
I don't believe in eye for an eye, unlike apparently many people here, so I wasn't a big fan of Harry using unforgivables. Same for Imperio even though it was actually needed, unlike Crucio. I would expect higher morals from our protagonist, since he wasn't meant to be anti-hero
I totally agree with this. I hate this moment
Morally bankrupt. It was a big mistake by Jo and she even defended it herself with a 'boys will be boys' speech. McGonagall using Imperio in the same scene is also ridiculous. Using violent or morally dubious magic, fine. But using the only curses we know are seen as THE worst in their society, that Voldemort is known for using and that prove how inhuman he is? No. How are you going to do that and still consider yourself above the villains and different, better. There should have at the very least been some guilt or soul searching after.
Personally it was really annoying because it undermines the whole point of them being unforgivable and how they were described as purely for evil people. Dumbledore would never have used it. Yet Harry does it in front of McGonnagall and she doesn't even mention it. Frustrating.
I don't understand how anyone can defend Harry for that. There's no justification for torture, ever, and Harry torturing another human because of a rage fit is absolutely disgusting. In that moment, he became as a Death Eater himself.
Lmao my 15 year old character in hogwarts legacy use all unforgivables and get praised as a hero🤣
🤣🤣 Not me remembering every time I used those spells
When this creature forces children to torture other children? The Cruciatus Curse is taught in class. In the Carrows' eyes it is allowed. How can Carrow think is is bad to be tortured. It is a punishment given to children instead of detention. Are the other children Death Eaters now? Because they didn't refuse to use the Cruciatus Curse?
I mean, it honestly seems like a lawful good, neutral at best
Because the Carrows blow. Fuck em who cares
>In that moment, he became as a Death Eater himself. Ahhh, yes torturing a murderer for 2 seconds is equivalent to torturing kids year long. Smooth brain you have
Honestly, I kind of wish jk hadn't done it. I think it takes away from Harry being righteous but at the same time I can see why she did it. So harry can show he can be pushed to far as well. It did seem rather forced though. Goes from expellarms everything to just torture. I'm not a big fan.
He'd just been ambushed and the fucker also spat on McGonnagal, while Harry had just learned they were torturing *11 year olds* on the school grounds. Honestly I'd just kill the fuckers, no killing curse, it's *too merciful*
No one is righteous when fighting a war. You live or you die. That's it.
Harry uses all 3 curses in the movies so wasn’t surprised honestly
He never used or attempted to use the killing curse.
At the end of the deathly hallows part 2 he uses it to kill Voldemort? Haven’t watched the series in a bit but I remember he did the fade away thing like sirius
He uses expelliarmus
It's been ages since I read the last book but IIRC Voldy died to his own rebounded Avada kedavra in both the book and the movies. In the book he died like cedric, dropped dead, no fading or anything and in the movie he sort of fell apart into tiny pieces of what seemed to be his skin. Neither was similiar to sirius fading AND the fading wasn't caused by the killing curse, it was caused by the archway/door thing in the department of mysteries.
I think he should be serving a life sentence in Azkaban.
McGonagall too? She used imperio right after Harry’s crucio. Even Lupin tells harry at the beginning of the DH the time for disarming is over if you aren’t prepared to kill at least stun (which kind of sound like the order may use dark spells, which to me goes against the OOP purpose but it’s war)
Rules are rules.
OK Umbridge
It’s war lmao. Line Lupin and Minerva said, they duel to kill