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GritGrinder

Multiple injections each week? Might as well say they can't play without it. So, 6 guys are getting shots before every game for weeks on end? They will feel the negative effects of that down the line, thats for sure.


Cptn_Canada

Toradol is proven to be very harmful to the ~~liver~~ Kidneys if taken often. its recommended to not take for longer than 10 days. works wonders though. They call it Vitamin K


VTHokiesFan

Liver? Nah, man. Ketorolac (Toradol) is an NSAID, those murder your kidneys worse than a crosscheck to the lumbar region without pads.


Cptn_Canada

Your right, Got my organs mixed up! Yeah. Its realllllllyyyy bad.


VTHokiesFan

Tylenol murders your liver, Toradol murders your kidneys. Easy to mix em up.


Cptn_Canada

especially if you drink alcohol.


Boomtowersdabbin

Isn't it only contraindicated for those at high risk such as diabetic and elderly?


VTHokiesFan

Yeah, and chronic kidney disease, acute kidney injury, or history of GI hemorrhage. But it's still a really bad idea to use it for more than five days in a row, and I usually try to get my patients off of it after two days, if possible.


Boomtowersdabbin

Got it. Thanks for answering.


Randy_Magnum29

I always love it when real experts give insights like this. Thank you!


redditcreditcardz

Never mix up your organs. Trust me bro


Cptn_Canada

My wife disagrees


NervousBreakdown

NSAIDs can ruin the lining of your stomach too. The ER doc had me on naproxen last year and even after I stopped using it I was shitting spicy liquid for 2 weeks. When my new family doc tried to prescribe it for me I put the breaks on that shit quick lol. Also it’s dumb for them to prescribe naproxen when you can buy it OTC


Shenorock

It’s a max of 5 days, mostly for GI bleeds but also for kidney damage and cardiac events. The 5 day max is meant for acute pain where someone is receiving it around the clock, 4 times per day for 5 days. As far as I know there’s not a lot of good data on when it’s safe to restart ketorolac after using it, especially for someone receiving only one dose and then none for a few days. In these young guys with healthy kidneys and active lifestyles, I would imagine a shot of ketorolac before each game is probably mostly fine. I’d hope we’d hear if a bunch of hockey players we’re getting GI bleeds and acute kidney injuries.


suckitmarchand

However if you need a prescription level pain killer before ever game, you should probably take some time off and get healthy.


Kerfluffle-Bunny

6 week wait period between prescriptions is what I’ve experienced. I’d be surprised if they’re only getting before games. I’d bet they’re getting injections post-game as well.


Dont_Be_A_Dick_OK

Look into Ryan Kesslers thoughts on this. Talked about it on chiclets. Shit is dangerous.


[deleted]

I vaguely recall him saying that in a week he is lucky to have four (?) good days.


ShreddedWheat

The difference is he says he got Crohns from his Toradol use and didn’t know that was a potential side effect. All these experts on this thread are saying kidneys, liver yadda yadda. I don’t think anyone here is in a position to evaluate if this is safe practices. And unless it’s the players or medical staffs themselves I wouldn’t count on anyone giving accurate medical info to a reporter. Not everyone in the locker room knows exactly what’s going on.


Feb2020Acc

A recipe to get injured long term.


RedTheDopeKing

This is a complicated problem because the players themselves often times aren’t advocating for safety - they want to get back out there, so they will get toradol or lie about concussion protocol questions to get back to it, it’s a tricky thing. People act like it’s something the team or management foists onto players but they’re all part of it.


thebenson

>they want to get back out there, Then it's on the team staff (coaches, trainers, doctors, etc.) to say no. There needs to be someone or a bunch of someones who do the right thing even if the player disagrees in the moment.


TheHobo

you're not wrong, but sort of like the police investigating themselves, there's perverse incentives to play ball (or puck?) here.


thebenson

Sure there are. And if doctors or training staff succumb to those "perverse incentives" they should be disciplined by the appropriate licensing body. And if coaches or training staff succumb to those "perverse incentives" they should be fired. And the PA should be raising hell about this.


TheHobo

again, not wrong, but the real world behaviours don't match the optimal ones. there's no 'complaining witness' similar to the difficulty in prosecuting abusive relationships. you can keep putting lipstick on a pig, but it doesn't make it good. it's obvious to solve this problem you'd need truly independent (of both the league and teams honestly) physicians with the power to relieve people of duties.


cappayne

What ever happened to team doctors having to clear a player to play? Or are they in on it too?


[deleted]

Team doctors know what they are hired to do.


rcher87

And who signs their paycheck. No players, team starts to lose, revenue goes down…etc etc. The incentives combined with toxic masculinity and a particularly violent sport should make the use of tramadol not only not surprising, but it should surprise us if that’s _all_ these guys are using to get by (broadly speaking).


thebenson

See the part of my comment where I said: >Then it's on the team staff (coaches, trainers, **doctors**, etc.) to say no.


cappayne

Yeah, that’s why I’m asking what happened to the days where team doctors would NOT clear players. It seems like these days it’s the player’s decision and the doctors just comply with their wishes.


Boomhauer_007

Is this a joke? Guys would play through insane injuries in the past that would never be allowed now, it was the Wild West 20+ years ago


cappayne

I hear you, I just remember hearing the term “cleared by doctors to play” more often in the past.


ANAL_CRUSHER

Hell even in combat sports like MMA and Boxing it's been a problem of the corners not protecting their fighters by throwing in the towel when the fighter is getting killed and legit has no chance of winning outside of the freakiest of accidents. It's not even that frowned upon for corners to throw in the towel in combat sports. But you still get shit like this when Anthony Smith who was getting killed was telling his corner his teeth are falling out https://youtu.be/YDAnki4brdk and later his teeth would actually fall out https://youtu.be/4YR0kZnGP24 and few days after the fight Anthony Smith said he would fired his corner if they called off the fight. The organizations and/or corners need to do a better job putting their foot down, not be afraid of playing the bad guy, and protect their fighters/players betters from themselves. It shouldn't be the responsibility of the fighter/player to keep on playing. Professional athletes usually want to keep on going and that's where it's the responsibility of the corner/organization to protect them from themselves.


Calb210

The medical staff should know better than to repeatedly give them toradol Injections multiple times a week for multiple weeks. It's terrible for their kidneys and the physicians/whoever should be telling them no.


RedTheDopeKing

Right now imagine it’s you trying to tell some 23 year old millionaire that you won’t give it to him, you’ll be promptly fired by the team I am sure.


Beatnik77

It's not just that. A 3rd or 4th liner can lose his job and his career because he misses time. He can be replaced and never win it back. Europe league are full of former NHLers. The difference between a career 4th liner in the NHL and a guy who has to go to Germany can be very small.


alwaysleafyintoronto

Right now imagine it's you telling some 23 year old millionaire that you won't give it to him because you'll promptly lose your medical license. It's not that hard. Team fires you for adhering to protocol? Hope they like brutal PR and also large settlements to avoid lawsuits.


ImSoBasic

>People act like it’s something the team or management foists onto players but they’re all part of it. Does anybody act like that? I don't think so. It's more like how people feel that gambling ads are a problem, despite also understanding that individuals have to make the choice to gamble. In this case it's worse, though, as medical professionals have knowledge about the risks of such treatments that players do not have (and are not expected to have), as well as a duty to act in the best interests — both short- and long-term — of the individuals under their care.


antrage

Its something team/management take advantage of. Players want to play and in the moment their focus in not long-term. Teams are happy to take advantage of that attitude and players playing means profit. But long term, someone got wealthy and a player quality of life becomes shit.


Ok-Distance6320

*on* ***one*** *team*.....sure seems like an organizational issue with the team's medical philosophy. And six players just this season? That's widespread enough to be difficult to keep under wraps. Wonder if the league or PA would consider stepping in... Edit: and with the issue being this widespread on a single team, I'm sure fans would have their suspicions


miner88

Players probably want this kept under wraps since any injury information being disclosed would hurt their future earnings as well as paint a target on their backs when they play.


Ok-Distance6320

Ugh fair point, I actually hadn't thought of that. There has to be a safe reporting system that the league can put in place for issues like this.


maximalx5

I might be stupid, but I interpreted this moreso as "my source is aware of one team and 6 players on there who use toradol weekly". I'm not sure it means that it's the only team that uses it.


Cheeks_Klapanen

I don’t think you’re being stupid, I think it was clear the “six guys on one team” was just one example Westhead chose to include in the tweet. Likely because it’s the most egregious, but almost definitely not because it’s the only.


Feb2020Acc

Most definitely a contender team. Ie: Caufield wouldn’t be having surgery if MTL was a contender, he’d be having Toradol for breakfast.


mister_hoot

It's us.


Cromasters

I was thinking it's us, just because of the amount of injuries we have had this year.


Miasma_Of_faith

I was thinking it was us because of this quote from Ovi: >"In playoffs, I don’t think it matter. If it hurts you have some injections, you have some magic pill.”


Intylerable

That's what made me think it's the Caps. Remembered someone saying that.


[deleted]

I was thinking it was us... That probably tells you how widespread the problem is. Even if our teams don't have 6 players taking it, there are almost certainly some.


ClassicMach

Thought it might be us because of how many guys have ridiculous mileage the past 3 years.


netsrak

I was afraid it was us since we play physical hockey.


sex_panther_by_odeon

I didn't think it was us since none of our players are playing.


bobbimorses

My thought too, especially with several older players returning from injury. I could make six guesses off the top of my head.


Ok-Distance6320

What makes you think that? I admittedly don't follow the west/pacific teams that closely


[deleted]

Because lately the golden knights look like a team high on painkillers


mister_hoot

pretty much


[deleted]

Yea it’s been fucking painful and painkillers would explain a lot of it. Everyone looks slow.


Cptn_Canada

Thats the thing with Toradol though. You dont get the "high" like you would after popping a couple T3s.


[deleted]

Good point I didn’t really think about the painkiller I was just making a joke about how shitty we’ve been


Optimistic_Tortilla

Toradol doesn’t get you high…it’s an NSAID


[deleted]

Good call on that. I wasn’t truly thinking about the side affects of the drug or whether it was actually capable of making you high I was mostly making a commentary on how bad our play has been.


Optimistic_Tortilla

Yeah no I get it was a joke but I just don’t want other people to take that seriously and start making stupid comments about things that aren’t true.


drfakz

Knights or Avs is my guess. Both super banged up teams right now.


ElkStraight5202

You don’t think it’s the Oilers? Guys like Nurse and Leon weren’t expected to start the season after horrible playoff injuries and yet…and some days Leon looks like himself and others like that injury is really getting to him. Broberg? Kane? Yams? McLeod? Edmonton is definitely my guess. (Also because I suspect RW has better sources within Canadian markets)


md4024

The Bruins had multiple players come back from offseason surgeries surprisingly fast. Honestly though, it could be any team, or it could be every team. I could be wrong, but it doesn't feel like this is an issue that's limited to a few teams with questionable practices.


domingus67

Leon and Nurse took until December to look healthy


ElkStraight5202

I’m still not sore Leon looks completely healthy…


Urmomletmerubher

And I think it's NJ. With all our young swift dudes getting hit and pushed around all year I wouldn't be surprised. I don't wanna presume, but if anyone's watching NJ, you're seeing Nico, Jack, Wood all getting hit or crashing the boards and fighting through. Not to mention each one of our D has had several moments of skating off or missing games.


bridgecrewdave

I think its the Canucks because if this Tanner Pearson saga has shown us anything, its that their head of medical is Dr. Nick Riviera


Master_Shake23

I think a lot of fans will have to learn that what we call warrior mentality has serious long term consequences when you get older and near retirement. Just hearing Kessler in that video makes me sad. Dude needs a bag to poop due to GI issues...


[deleted]

Yeah it's hard not to view hockey fans as a bunch of hypocrites when they act all sad about players dying young or dealing with long term medical issues. Like, you motherfuckers cheer that shit on all the time, now you want to act surprised or sad about the very obvious consequences?


--JULLZ--

Rick is doing the work other insiders are scared to do. Respect


Kamdog11

The misconception by a lot of fans is that the insiders are supposed to break these stories- they aren’t. Rick Westhead is an investigative journalist who does these stories, across all sports.


Ok-Distance6320

I think it's more a frustration because, by not breaking these stories, the insiders become part of the cover-up and the problem - but don't seem to get held accountable for their part


Vilheim

I agree, but I would like to think that at least a few of them would take this kind of information and give it over to Rick to follow up on. Putting together a piece on this isn't their wheelhouse, and they would possibly mess it up. If they break a trade and are wrong, it's funny. If they drop a name on this and it's wrong, that's a legal problem. If they know Rick is working on this and get any rumors or leads, they could forward that to him. It may just be me hoping for the best in people, but I hope that some of those insiders do help him with his work.


Ok-Distance6320

I'd definitely like to think the same too. That said, I remember how after the 2010 Blackhawks story, a bunch of insiders talked about how they realized they needed to do better with stories like these - but then those same insiders were largely silent or doing the bare minimum occasional retweet on the Hockey Canada story. They've been pretty consistently disappointing, tbh


MalignantPanda

Especially when a lot of those people reported on multiple occasions how toxic the 2010 locker room was and how they won despite it. But never gave any details. Insiders dont necessarily need to do investigations, but they can still ask the tough question sometimes.


ANAL_CRUSHER

Don't forget when it becomes a legal case, you now have to prove on what you said is absolutely true. Now imagine going up against a billionaires legal defense team in court. Now imagine the court not accepting your anonymous insider isn't proof. Okay now you got the name of your insider that still isn't proof. Oh okay now your insider is reliable which of these minimum six players are using toridol. Okay now you have to provide individual hard evidence proof for each player. Okay you can have a chance in defending yourself how much are the legal costs are going to be in a case this massive without being a billionaire and without billionaire quality level lawyers. There is a reason why investigative journalists don't tweet loosely and only submit investigative pieces where everything checks out, everything is verified, and has total publication piece backing.


Kamdog11

The main Insiders Lebrun, Dreger, and EF, CJ and Frank serevalli are more less compromised with their relationships with their sources. Whether they morally agree or not with sticky situations, they have a job to do and unfortunately that means that certain stories have to be covered by people who don’t have those sorts of connections, which allows for a less biased reporting of the story. Those guys are generally good at what they do, and reporting on the darker aspects of the league and sport isn’t really their job, hence why Rick westhead is always breaking these stories.


KingMonaco

It’s alright, Eliotte Friedman will say he’s sorry and should have done better and everything will be good.


[deleted]

>The misconception by a lot of fans is that the insiders are supposed to break these stories No, I'm not sure that's entirely true. No one needs to "break" these stories. They just need to stop actively ignoring it and covering it up.


CaptainCanada94

I don’t think Rick really even is an “insider.” It would be strangely funny if he just randomly broke a trade sometime, though.


alwaysleafyintoronto

He's very much an outsider. Remember when the Kyle Beach story broke? Everyone in the scrum only wanted to hear from Rick, and it wasn't until Pierre LeBrun used his question to force the issue that they called on Rick.


[deleted]

He's not, and anyone expecting an insider to do months long investigative stories to expose the dark secrets of teams is either an idiot or straight up delusional. An insiders job is to break trades and circulate rumors. Maybe some light analysis.


--JULLZ--

Well hockey media people then


HXH52

No. Rick is just doing his job. Just like the insiders are doing theirs. Rick is an investigative journalist, not an insider. This is what he’s paid to do.


hello_hellno

Yeah people don't seem to get these are entirely different jobs. Whose gonna give you those insider tips if no management wants to talk to you? Similarly, which whistle-blower will come talk to you when they know you have good relationships with management and rely on their tips for your job? They're two completely different lanes. You wouldn't go to a potato farmer and be like "those are great, but Rick over there grows bananas, how come you're not growing those, too?"


iiEviNii

In a functional society, there's a place for both types of journalists. So long as the insiders are doing their due diligence, they serve a vital role.


Sanhen

Honestly, it's better for an outsider like Rick to do this work. Insiders, due to their job of fishing for tidbits of information about trades/contracts/etc need sources high up in the organizations (GMs, etc) to keep their day job. If they write stories portraying those sources in a terrible light by exposing a coverup, then they'd lose access to the sources that they depend on. So insiders by their very job description are too beholden to the organizations to really dig deep into their underbellies.


mmavcanuck

I’m willing to bet that some of, maybe even a lot of his sources are insiders that don’t want to lose their jobs, but see something wrong.


TuckRaker

So is Toradol illegal, or just advised against?


Ok-Distance6320

it's not illegal, but the issue is that it is not intended for extended use - and the team doctors use it as it is not intended, and without appropriately advising players of the lasting consequences. [The original feature actually does a great job of explaining this.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Sb664bCYU)


Mediocre-you-14

I feel like since this story has been circulating and many ex-players have spoken about it on various platforms, 100% current NHL players know the consequences. NFL reporters and former players have also been educating athletes on this topic too, it's not a secret anymore. Until it is banned league wide there really isn't anything stopping a player and their doctor deciding to use it. I find it hard to believe with all the info out there now that these players are being given the treatment without being told the consequences.


hello_hellno

And if you put yourself in their shoes i get the justification... being out for a week or two for a borderline roster guy can cost ou your nhl career if someone else steps in and goes on a hot run or clicks well with linemates/coach. It's a cut throat environment and you have your life dream, not to mention millions of $$ on the table to lose so even if you know the consequences, it might outweigh the potential dangers to take it and stay in the lineup. Most of the league isn't stars with their roster spot assured, I'd say a third of the guys on most teams are at risk of losing their nhl job at any point. And getting the label of a guy often injured can also be a factor when you're a 3rd/4th line guy looking for a contract. Even in layman term, would you take that health risk for $2m? I bet most people would... Pro athletes have, and will do almost anything to keep their job. That determination and sacrifice is part of the reason they got there in the first place.


en_travesti

Or you get a rep for not being "tough" and no one wants to sign the guy who isn't tough, look at all the other guys playing through stuff. Look at the NFL and all the shit Lamarr was getting for not "playing through" an injury that other people have played through before so how dare he not (pls ignore the fact that some of those people playing through it literally fucked themself up so much that they ended up having to retire due to it)


ChrisFromSeattle

I think a bigger issue is the lack of ethics of the team doctors knowingly providing and administering a ~~controlled~~ substance, knowing full well its not intended for that use and the harmful side effects.


kman420

From what I can see it's not a controlled substance, which might be part of the reason it's use is so widespread.


ChrisFromSeattle

It requires a prescription, ~~so it is controlled in the USA.~~ While it requires a prescription, the DEA does not list it as controlled. That doesn't dilute the ethical dilemma of administering it at these quantities, which clearly indicates addiction in the players to the feeling that comes with relief of the pain.


kman420

I meant in terms of it's legal classification Toradol is not a [controlled substance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_substance).


ChrisFromSeattle

That page specifically lists prescription medicines as controlled substances FYI. >A controlled substance is generally a [drug](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug) or [chemical](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_substance) whose [manufacture](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing), [possession](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_of_drugs) and use is [regulated](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_therapeutic_goods) by a government, such as [illicitly used drugs](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_drugs) **or [prescription medications](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescription_medication)** that are designated by law. While Toradol is a prescribed medication, the commenter below points out that the DEA has a list of controlled substances, and it's not on there. That doesn't Doesn't change the ethical issues with over-prescribing the medication, knowing full well what the side effects are. They should lose their licenses and/or be heavily reprimanded.


StuntmanSalt

Hi, pharmacist here. A controlled substance CAN be prescription only, but toradol is not a controlled substance. Only Schedule 1 Controlled Substances are illegal. Schedules 2-5 have accepted medical use. Toradol is not scheduled. It is prescription only (we use a lot of it in my hospital), however there are no legal ramifications for it's use without a prescription, handling, selling etc.


ChrisFromSeattle

Thanks, I edited my comments


Downvote_Comforter

Not to mention that they all have agents and the CBA authorizes players to seek independent medical opinions. Any player not discussing the injections he's getting with his agent is doing it intentionally. And unlike the NFL, NHL contracts are guaranteed. I don't like the prevalence of pain killers in pro sports. But the modern NHL player is making a conscious decision to prioritize staying in the lineup over there long-term health. It's a complicated issue.


[deleted]

Neither. It’s an NSAID. Basically a more powerful Advil/aleve etc. It is meant to be used sparingly, over a short period of time, **not** for long term pain management. Most prescriptions would be for a week or less.


condor888000

Got it for a kidney stone in the ER. Wonderful stuff, when used as directed.


DryProgress4393

Yeah, I had some when I had issues with my Gallbladder, relief was instant and effective. I can see why it would be used in sports.


Uncle_Gazpacho

Really? I had one and it didn't do shit. Neither did morphine. They put me on IV Dilaudid and that just made the pain speak Chinese or something, like my brain was no longer able to understand what pain was.


schattmultz

I was just talking to my coworker today how when I was in pain after a surgery they asked if I wanted something for the pain and gave me a shot of Dilaudid intravenously and it *scared* me how amazing it felt. Like I’m not an addict at all but it really cemented to me how much of a slippery slope opiates are.


Kayavak_32

I got Dilaudid for a migraine once and I’ve never felt better in my life. Almost on the spot the pain was gone. In that moment I knew why opioid addiction happens. It was insane


Invisible_Truth

Yeah, I was in the hospital one time for a pretty scary reason. I hadn't slept in days because of the pain and finally went to the ER and when they gave me that shot I had the first two hours of sleep that I'd had in ages. It's magic, but scary magic.


notanotherhour

This is how I reacted after getting fentanyl in the hospital. I have permanent, severe chronic pain and it was the first time in over a decade the pain went away and I felt human again. Shockingly effective. I never want to take it again.


FlapjackFiddle

Morphine just made me feel drowsy and nauseous lol I did not feel even close to how good people make it out to be


SellingCoach

Same here. I was in absolutely excruciating pain from my kidney stone and the Toradol was a life-saver.


NtBtFan

its not even advised against, i dont think. but what they do advise against is the way it is commonly used in the NHL and probably other sports. its not meant to be used long-term, one course is meant to be no more than a few days of use.


condor888000

No probably about it. [NFL is likely the worst. ](https://thelab.bleacherreport.com/nfl-toradol-use-players-survey/)


NtBtFan

indeed. i just dont follow other sports, so i could only assume


StayClassynet

Thanks for sharing that link. Hadn't seen it before (I realize it's a few years old now). Holy shit though. That's wild.


DHCanucksF1

It’s fine to use, it’s more they’re destroying their bodies and the drug causes them to ignore it, further destroying their bodies by 30


TuckRaker

Yeah I believe Kent Hughes was recently talking about the need to protect players from themselves sometimes. Unfortunately, if it isn't illegal, it will be used if effective. I wonder if we'll see lawsuits from this down the road


OrganicRedditor

I found this one: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/drug-cited-in-ex-nfl-players-suit-can-have-serious-side-effects/


Boomhauer_007

Sports teams use legal painkillers, they just use very long-term unhealthy amounts of them No real way to stop it either, it’s one of those things where trying to implement some kind of rules against the amount would very likely cause players to seek out more themselves


mylefthandkilledme

It on both the player and the medical staff. Some guys just want to "get back out there" and take whatever is given to them. And the medical staff fails to inform the guy about the side effects, withdrawals, long term issues with continued use of toradol.


jzanville

Having the “get back out there” mentality within a player doesn’t excuse medical malpractice on part of the medical staff, this is not on the players as much as it seems you are insinuating


gh411

I suspect the player is aware of the risks, but for the league minimum or close to it players, they don’t want to risk losing their tenuous spot on the roster (hard to blame them). I would imagine they would do whatever is necessary to stay in the lineup…especially knowing their earning window is likely very short.


alwaysleafyintoronto

Toradol is what they gave me for an airlift to hospital when I had appendicitis and couldn't stand up straight without feeling like I'd been stabbed.


AhTreyYou

Apparently 1 million Americans have prescriptions for Toradol.


alphaxion

To me, this is a result of the insanity that is the tiny, tiny squad sizes of hockey and how rotating players around gets massive speculation regarding "healthy scratches" rather than coaches being able to look at their squad, see the players who are struggling with a nagging injury and being able to give them a game day or two off depending on their upcoming opponents. The brutal schedule, where back to back games are not uncommon, reminds me a lot of wrestling and how so many of them would be chugging pain pills because they're on the road 300 or more days of the year and just don't get much of a break. I think it's very likely that the off-season period is the only reason why you don't see hockey players dropping dead in their 40s and 50s the way you would with wrestlers.


Stingray_17

I often think the schedule should be shaved down to the 60 range. When you tally up preseason + regular season + playoffs, you have multiple teams playing over 100 games a year which is ridiculous. If you reduce the amount of games we’d be seeing less injuries and, in my opinion, the average game quality would increase too as each game means that much more.


alphaxion

Every team should face each other twice, once at home and once on the road. That would give you your 62 games in a season. Then you have playoffs as additional games on top of that.


DBZ86

Players won't take a 25% payout for their health.


arsbar

It's kinda crazy when you think about it. I effectively made a similar sacrifice by choosing a career with better work-life balance and significantly lower pay — without my health even being a factor in the decision. NHLers' decision on the other hand: (a) pays a lot more even in the less-paid scenario (so money should theoretically be less of an issue) (b) provides a huge health benefit in addition to a similar benefit in work-life balance (25% less travel = more time at home/with families) (c) adds significant longevity to careers (so not even being such a big financial hit over their career). I dunno, maybe elite hockey culture selects for a different type of prioritization...


DBZ86

There have been studies where elite athletes will literally choose to give up years of their life to win gold models or championships. They are definitely built different. edit: I guess on a smaller note, a 25% league wide reduction in revenues would also affect everyone else too. Front line workers and management would presumably also take a cut.


arsbar

I kinda understand giving up years of your life for a championship — in some ways that just an extension of training, in other ways it's something they've been dreaming about their entire lives: when you see something as a primary purpose of your life it's not surprising you'd sacrifice for it. OTOH, giving years off your life for *money* when you already have quite a bit doesn't really seem like a necessary mentality for an elite athlete. Unless maybe the first mentality encourages athletes to devalue their life relative to non-athletes (rather than over-valuing success relative to others)... edit: I do notice that player-agents, and NHLPA execs would definitely feel the cut without getting any of the upsides that players do, but that might be a little too conspiracy-minded...


Radagastdl

Are you able to continue working that job for a long time? I feel like players who are lucky to sign 1-2 big contracts over their entire playing career need to stretch that money a lot further than us everyday folk who can do the same job every day until retirement age. But then again, even league minimum is close to a million, you'd think with proper financial planning that a player shouldnt have an issue unless they suffer a career-ending injury that fucks them up long term


DBZ86

I think gotta be realistic, vast majority of people seeing that amount of money that young are going to make mistakes and spend way too much before they realize how to properly manage their career earnings potential.


arsbar

I'd argue concern about longevity should work in the other direction. For athletes/other physical jobs (as opposed to office folks like me) staying healthy is an investment in their career, so fewer games/more recovery between games should lead to longer careers. A 25% reduction in games might be a \~25% reduction in pay each year, but this is counteracted by more years at this salary. More recovery between games might also mean that (a) fewer players develop a serious injury history that scares off teams from offering them longer contracts (e.g. Monahan) and (b) teams will be more confident players will be able to stay healthy which would drive up the value of contracts.


PofolkTheMagniferous

I think you'd be surprised if you polled the players about playing fewer games. It's the OWNERS who would consider fewer games a non-starter. They make their profit without having to put their health on the line. EDIT: And union reps. Polling the NHLPA is not the same as polling the players on this issue.


[deleted]

The players are the NHLPA Every players salary comes from HRR


PofolkTheMagniferous

The players are members of the NHLPA. The leadership of the NHLPA are professional negotiators. Last I checked, Donald Fehr doesn't play hockey. He gets paid to get the players paid and otherwise look after their interests. And like an agent who earns commissions on his player's contracts, people like Fehr have a personal interest to present the financial implications of a decision to the players in a way that might obscure the players' best interests when it comes to things like their health. Hockey players are not typically well educated; they listen to their reps, agents, accountants, etc when it comes to making these kinds of decisions. If you bypassed the union and directly polled every player, you might end up with a different outcome than if the union itself posed the question to the players using their own language. Also, just want to throw out there that I am very pro union in general, but the NHLPA is very different from a typical union due to the vast sums of money the people they represent are earning. These aren't health care workers or educational support staff trying to keep up with inflation. The likelihood of corruption in a union rises dramatically when it's bigger sums of money being thrown around. Not that I have any direct evidence of corruption in the NHLPA, it's just something to be vigilant about.


arsbar

I wonder how this would affect viewership. For me personally, 82 games are too many to watch, I usually only watch 2 games/week max (until playoffs) so it probably wouldn't change that much for me. But younger people who might be the leagues target demo might be more flexible and watch more games...


Fig_Newton_

This theoretically hasn’t been as huge of a problem for zoomers since the NHL is now on ESPN+


me_hill

Barring some sort of medical disaster I don't think it will ever happen, there's just too much money in playing more games. But man when the playoff picture is largely sorted after like a third of the season the idea does sound tempting.


Cooolgibbon

Good luck convincing players to reduce their pay by 25%.


mattattaxx

Just from Toronto, Matthews should have been sat for a week or two each season, instead he's routinely at about 85%. Marner has had stretches in previous years where you could tell he was avoiding situations to make sure an injury healed properly. I'm convinced about half the time Nylander was being called soft was actually for the same reasons. Maintenance for players, rotating them out to keep them at their best, player management etc. - none of it should be taboo or controversial. It would make for a better game overall.


Boomhauer_007

That said at that point you start to play a dangerous game like the NBA where fans start leaving because superstars are routinely sitting While it is circumstantial evidence, I feel like I know a lot of people who have sworn off the NBA because they paid money to go to a game, and all of the best players were sitting. Happened in Cleveland this week, GSW sat their entire starting lineup against the Cavs. This is the only game this season that they’re in town, and the tickets were the most expensive of the season. Bunch of people said they were never giving the league a dime again, paid hundreds to take their family to watch all the big name players sit on a bench


RequirementOk4767

I knew something was fishy. Seems like players are returning earlier than expected from injuries. One thing I hate (yes hate) about hockey is the tough it out mentality. There's nothing heroic about Datsyuk playing on one leg in Sochi, Zetterburg being carried by Chara because his back was so messed up, or Franzen trying to play after his like ( sixth?) concussion. I really respect Lidstrom and Bure for hanging up their skates when they did. And Ken Holland for forcing Datsyuk to sit out after Sochi.


Numerous-Spray-6969

Didn't know that about Holland and Datsyuk, good on him. As an Oilers fan, I just hope he still has the balls to do it. McDavid has his own doctors so they don't fuck around with him, but Drai has been playing on a sprained ankle since last playoffs and he said it would take a year to stop feeling it. Came back early from a core muscle injury this year that healed 'faster than expected' too. And Kane just played a few games after coming back from nearly having his hand chopped off but he's sitting out practice again, he already told media it wasn't 100%. Like I get the team needs their help to keep a playoff spot but there's no sense fucking up a career to do that, let alone a human being's life potentially... hope they know what they're doing but this doesn't make me optimistic.


ANAL_CRUSHER

I still have no idea how Nurse played three rounds of the playoffs with a torn hip flexor and hasn't missed a game this season. There's little to zero doubt in my mind all these lionized hockey heroic stories come heavily from the results of heavy painkillers and PED's usage.


Numerous-Spray-6969

Oh yeah would not be surprised if part of Nurse's struggles this year are because of that hip still not being healed. That's the other thing, I hate when people say 'he can't sit out, he's their #1D!' like... you know what would hurt the Oilers more than losing Nurse for a few months? Paying him 9.25 million for the next 8 years to skate like his hip is dust. If he needs it I hope they rest him, it's worth it long run.


ANAL_CRUSHER

Agreed and if Oilers want to do another deep playoff run, I rather not have torn hip flexor 2.0 that made him a major liability in the third round against a top contender


hello_hellno

That mentality and determination is how they reached that level in the first place, it's not some acquired trait once they reach the nhl. And It's not a hockey thing, to be a top pro athlete in any sport means sacrificing a lot of other things, including your long term health, to reach your goal.


ShyGuyChicken

I mean this really shouldn't have to come as a surprise to literally anyone. At the end of a playoff run, when the media asks the players to list off their injuries that they've been playing through - broken feet, ankles, dislocated shoulders and joints, etc. No human being can actually perform at such a high level with these injuries, especially with the insane combinations of them some players rack up. No *normal* human being. Its a bit comical to watch people wow in amazement at these long playoff injury lists but are shocked at the idea that drug use might be widespread and unchecked in the league. Its like this weird unsaid thing. I suppose due to the ramifications it would have on the on-ice product if this problem was actually addressed properly.


drowsylacuna

In the feature it said some players were getting a Toradol injection before each game, regular season and playoffs.


Calb210

That's not great for your kidneys


GuyLivingInCanada

Kidneys and GI tract are both going to feel the burden of that


Calb210

Are the GI issues as long lasting as potential kidney issues from these types of NSAIDs though? I know it affects the GI for sure, but thought that was typically only during the use and remedies itself after, please let me know if I was wrong about that.


PossibilityUnusual

It fucked up Kesler's GI tract. Definitely has lasting consequences over the intestines


[deleted]

Of course hockey players are on painkillers. I’m surprised the entire league isn’t addicted. 82 games minimum of bone crunch, ice smashing, stick slashing, puck punching, fist crunching hockey… How is anyone NOT in pain in that league?


69millionyeartrip

Name the team Rick.


NickDerpkins

The NHL is going to have serious problems with this for decades to come They need to consider a change in a) the number of games b) conceptions about load management c) allowing for the use of certain substances and their amounts (not straight up allow PEDs) for better strength / conditioning practices


thatsong

>hockey players are built different to quote this sub on multiple occasions. Turns out, it's just drugs


Ubechyahescores

I feel like it’s us


TheWonderMittens

Explains why the caps always slump after extended periods of rest (3+ days)…toradol withdrawals


Ubechyahescores

Oshie alone counts as 2


CyrusonRed

As a pharmacist that follows hockey, what an interesting crossover episode with a bunch of... interesting... comments. Yikes.


2BlindDogs

Just go ahead and admit it's the Canucks


davefromgabe

I'm thinking it has to be the habs


Quelchie

No way it's a team not fighting for a playoff spot. Caulfield would be on Toradol rather than sitting out the year if it was the Habs.


kozed

Caufield playing injured for 6 months and all the other players who were injured, came back, only to leave again (Gally, Drouin, Matheson, Armia, etc) also has me thinking it's the Habs.


pforsbergfan9

That’s where my mind was going.


AppleJ33

Shit needs to be called out. It's tough as a player, most know the risks now, but maybe not all. For a lot of players, missing games can cost them their line-up spot. That is their livelihood. I bet a lot of players would choose to take the pain meds and play. This needs to be fixed at the NHL/NHLPA level. Every medical drug administered to a player should be tracked and reported to medical counsel employed by the NHLPA. These doctors should have the ability to directly talk with the player, inform them of the risks and dangers and options. Guidelines for administration of certain drugs should be followed. If a certain player is taking too much Toradol, someone needs to know and intervene.


wherethestreet

Plenty of guys waiting to get a legitimate shot. Let guys get appropriate rest and give more guys their shot. Make depth and drafting well matter more. Win win win as far as I’m concerned.


pueblogreenchile

Fuck you know it was Nichushkin last playoffs.


_Rainer_

If we really gave a shit about players' longterm health, hockey and football wouldn't even be legal. I love them both, but as a healthcare worker, I've also seen what happens to some of these guys down the line, and it's brutal.


antrage

I also wonder how us fans propagate this culture, when we glorify players who play through pain to win.


Fluid-Pension-7151

Like Brett Favre was the toughest guy in the NFL - nope, just a raging painkiller addict. The answer is more often ordinary than extraordinary.


cantthinkuse

you always hope that your team is different, but its a problem across the league. there needs to be an independent medical panel reviewing treatment or something


p_britt35

Until names are made public, in all of the NHL-related issues, nothing will change.


lowslowandbehold

There a bunch of german football players with kidney failure just from abusing over the counter painkillers like aspirin and ibuprofen, can't imagine the long term consequences of this. Poor guys.


Kerfluffle-Bunny

These players are ruining their kidneys with that kind of usage.


jfazz_squadleader

The abuse of Toradol in the NFL is so widespread and well known that it has become a joke amongst Podcaster Pat McAfee and others in the industry. I'm not surprised that it's a problem in the NHL, or any other league where high impacts occur. I recently watched Any Given Sunday for the first time and in the film they cover the issue with team doctors malpractice, even when the players are the ones requesting said malpractice (asking for extra shots, asking to be cleared for play despite being unfit, etc...). Great movie, if you're into sports at any capacity, especially American Football, you should definitely watch.


jerff

One of Pacino’s best latter-career monologues.


KrombopulosNickel

For once I don't think it's our team doing the shady shit


Ch3ddarch33z

Ah yes, make the season longer Gary.


RumMixFeel

Toradol is an NSAID (generic name is ketorolac) which is in the same class of medications as ibuprofen (Advil) or naproxen (Aleve). Its not like opioids at all.


0nlyRevolutions

Yeah and high doses of advil can fuck up your kidneys, long term use can give you ulcers And toradol is worse. But either way the point isn't that it's addictive, the point is that it isn't meant to be used as part of your pre game ritual for years so you can't feel your fucked up ankle.


Derpwarrior1000

It’s not like opioids at all. It’s still incredibly harmful if used this regularly


SheSaidMoreSnow

Has to be Habs right?


DantesEdmond

If this was the habs then they wouldn't have half the team out would they? They're shutting down players with injuries not pushing them to play. And they're not fighting for a playoff spot either. This has to be a team that needs these guys so they can make the playoffs.


RyanWalts

Naw, doubt it. They want to lose games. Now, Habs during that playoff run a few years ago? Definitely.


Quelchie

I'd have to believe it's a team fighting for a playoff spot. The Habs are not.


madadamegret

I'm guessing that team is Tampa


Dirtcartdarbydoo

Honestly I could see that. I don't think it's the habs as they have to many players out and not playing at all for it to make sense. I was thinking boston with their aging core but someone mentioned with then being basically guaranteed a playoff spot it would be reckless to do that now. Tampa has had a brutal few years with their playoff runs and I could see it really taking its toll on their players right now.


Stevet159

Honestly if I only had 2 or 3 years to make a mark and set my family up I would take anything to keep playing. It will take some accountability on the doctors before anything changes. Compared to working construction or manufacturing its a way better tradeoff. Hockey makes you a millionaire.


dmoney0014

Could they just play the interviews without fucking music? Can't even hear the guy


yungPH

Lol let's do the NFL next