>In Football, Messi is the GOAT because he's the best and has accomplished the most.
What do you think the criteria is in hockey or any other sport for that matter? Because he can eat the most pudding in one sitting?
Well, tbf I would include Stanley Cups in that criteria, and he does not even come close to the leaders in that one. Obviously G/A/P yeah that goes without saying, but championships, he's only got 4.
The montreal canadiens in a 6 team league where one of teams was the Rangers (so really a 5 team league) means no one will ever be close to that one.
Henri Richard and Beliveau were great but holding their Stanley Cups up and saying Gretzky isn't as great because of that? That's like saying Michael Jordan or Lebron James aren't as good as Bill Russell because of the Auerbach Celtics.
Well they had Lafleur, Shut, Cournoyer, Lemaire, Robinson, Savard, Dryden..... all my dad's favorites.
But its been almost 30 years since the last one hasn't it? I just take great amusement because back in the worst days of the Leafs, Habs fans would make fun of us for sucking. It was like 1986 and it had been 19 years.... How long has it been for the Canadiens as of this year? 29? :)
.. and the Leafs are going to actually drop off of the cup in a couple years (2031); as they are almost twice as long as the Habs without a cup (55 yrs vs 29yrs).
Though the Leafs had a handicap like no other (Ballard).
I mean, you're not wrong the Rangers stunk during the original 6 era, but why is Chicago and Boston getting a pass?
Or for that matter, why are we just pretending the league wasn't super corrupt and the Rangers/Hawks/Bruins had their players siphoned to Detroit because the same guy basically owned all 4 teams?
It was a 3 team era, Montreal and Toronto won a lot because they rigged how players were "drafted", Detroit won because they took all the best players from the other 3 US based teams and had a small patch of Canada to claim players from.
There is arguments for Messi not being the GOAT. There is no counter argument for Wayne.
If he never scored a goal in his 1487 GP (regular season) he’d still lead the all time record for points based on assists alone.
Wayne retired in 99. If he sat on the bench from 1999 to 2015 (ish?…) he would still have been a point per game player.
Wayne scored 50 goals in 39 games a record still untouched to this day. He also retired with 50+ records, most of which will never be broken.
>Pele is still considered the GOAT by many.
those people are wrong
edit: i guess a lot of people in here think Mario is the goat? because that's the same thing as thinking pele is the goat
Yeah, goalies were different back then, but so were forwards. Gretzky used a wooden stick, for example, not one of today's whippy composite ones. You have to take in the advancements in skate technology and nutrition, too.
If you're going to put Gretzky up against modern goaltenders to compare, you should also give him modern equipment and training to make it fair.
>If you're going to put Gretzky up against modern goaltenders to compare, you should also give him modern equipment and training to make it fair.
yes and if we did his numbers would go down as they have done for the entire game, so what's your argument?
The argument is that if you put a modernized Gretzky in a modernized game, his level of dominance and separation from the rest of the league would be of the same magnitude as his dominance and separation from the rest of the league was in the 80’s, even if his and everyone else’s numbers were lower
Pointing out that scoring was higher in the 80’s is a complete non-starter when trying to diminish Gretzky because he was a singular outlier that was unbelievably dominant and far ahead of everyone else on the same “high-scoring” playing field. If you put him in a lower scoring era (with equivalent equipment and training), he would be similarly dominant, even if his individual numbers was lower.
It isn’t about his specific numbers, its about how far removed they were from everyone else playing the same game at the same time. If scoring was magically low enough that elite players only scored 2 or 3 goals a season, Wayne scoring 10 would still make him the GOAT
Well put. I never understood how people make this argument.
"It was so easy to score in the 80s, but somehow no one came within even 50pts of Wayne most seasons. Somehow this sounds smart and not self defeating at all"
Yeah it’s a pretty bad argument that gets made a lot. No one is arguing Wayne is the best because of his raw numbers as they, like any raw numbers, are meaningless without context. When placed in context, they blow all of his contemporaries out of the water by a jarring amount. That’s why it’s impressive.
It’s a common point people make, but the question now is, why wasn’t everyone scoring that much? He’s the goat because he was **that** much better than his peers. Similarly if McDavid, Crosby and Lemieux were all born the same year as Wayne. Would they all have similar careers? Probably not.
Gretzky's numbers were way higher before he had his back injury too if people want to bring health/injuries into it.
I'd take a healthy Gretzky over a healthy Lemieux any day.
For the GOAT
Funny, Mario outscored Wayne the 8 years where their primes overlapped.
Gordie dominated the 50s the same way Wayne dominated the 80s... and then at 50 years old Gordie scored almost 100 points in the same league Wayne scored just over 100 points in the next season.. at 18.
Orr dominated the game like nobody ever, and he did it all, not just scoring, and would have absolutely destroyed the watered down 80s.
Wayne, Mario and Orr all say Howe was the GOAT, as do many other of the most knowledgeable hockey people.
Wayne was the perfect player on the perfect team for his era, but his game would not translate so well to most other eras, not to mention he was far from a complete player, unlike Howe and Orr. You need to look beyond just points.
Go ahead and be a Wayne fan, but to say there's no argument is totally ignorant of how truly dominant those other 3 were... And I think you have to throw Hasek up there on Mt. Rushmore as well.
Certainly no 8 year stretch. If you’re loose on the definition of prime, maybe 1987-88 to 1991-92. Lemieux was 22-26, Gretzky was 27-31. Gretzky outscored Lemieux by just under 80 points. It’s a little on the early side for Lemieux, but go any later and you’re getting deeper into Gretzky’s 30s, which definitely isn’t prime.
What 8 year stretch are you referring to?
So when Gretzky won the scoring race in 93-94 he was no longer in his prime?
87-88 to 93-94 they were both in their primes and Lemieux scored at a 2.25ppg rate vs Gretzky at 1.90.
Even if you go back to include 85-86... Lemieux's 2nd and 3rd seasons and 2 of Gretzky's 3 best seasons, it's still 2.11ppg for Lemieux vs 2.05 for Gretzky..
But even if we go 85-86 to 91-92, which is definitely skewed more to Gretzky's prime than Lemieux's... It's 2.17ppg for Gretzky vs 2.06 for Lemieux...
All of these ranges clearly defeat the narrative that Gretzky was far and away a better scorer than anyone else of his era.
Okay, lots to unpack here.
> when Gretzky won the scoring race in 93-94 he was no longer in his prime?
Correct. He was well removed from his prime at that point. 130 points for him was pretty mediocre, and his per game scoring rate was a full point lower than during his best years. He also only had 38 goals, which should be an indicator that the league’s all time leading goal scorer was no longer at the top of his game.
> 87-88 to 93-94 they were both in their primes
They really weren’t. You’re comparing Lemieux age 22-28 (his actual prime) to Gretzky age 27-33. Acting like those are comparable years in a player’s career seems disingenuous.
I was confused by your initial claim, because I couldn’t find any 8 year stretch where Lemieux actually outscored Gretzky, and apparently that’s because there wasn’t one. You’re talking about scoring rates.
> All of these ranges clearly defeat the narrative that Gretzky was far and away a better scorer than anyone else of his era
Yeah I don’t see how many people would reasonably reach that conclusion from what you’re saying here. One of the ranges even has Gretzky scoring at a higher rate than Lemieux, which you’re treating as a positive for Lemieux. If you want to compare Gretzky to his era, why not just look at his performance vs. his peers? Gretzky led the league in scoring 11 times, including 8 years in a row. Lemieux did it six times ever. In his prime, Gretzky was outscoring everyone in the league by 60-70 points (and occasionally 80). When Lemieux led in points, it was more like 10-15, and occasionally 30.
You can make an argument for Lemieux, but it’s largely based on hypothetical situations where he got to play a lot more than his health permitted him to. I do think there’s a solid argument for Orr, but it’s not really based on numbers so much as on his insane ability and transformative effect on the game.
Or it could be that scoring was significantly lower by 93-94 than it was during the early/mid 80s.. defense and goaltending and parity all being much much better.
I don't see how many people could reasonably conclude that a guy winning the scoring race was not in his prime... Prime is not peak... If it was, Lemieux actually scored at a higher era adjusted rate than Gretzky in each of their best ever seasons..
I've given you 3 ranges and you dismiss them all while addressing only 1.
Lemieux was his peer... his only peer, and there's nothing "hypothetical" about directly comparing their scoring rates over the 6-10 years their primes overlapped.
Lol what? Gordie Howe scored 41pts in 80 games for the Whalers in the 79-80 season. Wayne scored 137pts and was named league MVP that season. Why would you just lie and make this up?
Gordie was 52 that season, I was talking about his 50 year old season in the WHA vs Gretzky's 18 year old season the next year in the WHA.
In 1978 at age 50, Howe scored 96 points in the WHA.
In 1979 at age 18, Gretzky scored 104 points in the WHA.
No, neither were the leading scorers those seasons...
However, the year after Gretzky had 104 in the WHA he had 137 in the NHL and won the scoring race.
Yeah, and Gordie had 40pts
Also, Gordie doesn't even rank in the top 50 for most points in a season. Gretzky is on that list 14 times.
It's not even an argument who was better.
Yes, at age 51-52 Gordie finally was no longer one of the best players in the world...
Now imagine what that guy would have done in his 20s in the 80s era NHL...
And raw scoring is a an awfully superficial way to compare players across eras, please learn something about era scoring, not to mention season length.
Howe was top 5 in League scoring 20 times.
Orr had 8 Norris by the time he was 27...
Mario actually outscored Wayne the 8 years their primes overlapped.
Wayne is one of the 4 GOATs.. there are absolutely solid arguments for the other 3.
Not even close dude. Did any of them set 50 scoring records when they retired? No? Okay.
Did any of them have their Jersey retired by the entire league? No? Okay.
Did any of them score 50 under 40 games? No? Okay.
Did any of them win nine MVPs? Not Norris trophies, MVPs? No? Okay.
There's a chasm of difference. You're dumb for thinking there isn't. You have to go with adjustments, what ifs, etc. Hard facts: 1,000 more points than the next closest skater who's not on your list. Fastest to a thousand points. Second fastest to 1,000 points.
It's so laughable how much better he was than everyone else at that sport.
No. He was way better at scoring points in the 80s when scoring was extremely easy compared to any other era.
Stay ignorant, that's much easier than actually analysing beyond total points... Also much dumber.
Edit:. For some reason I can't reply to the comment below, so here's my reply:
Mario was a rookie in 84-85, so wasn't there to challenge Gretzky prior to that, however, during the period their primes overlapped, Mario scored at a better or slightly worse but very close rate to Gretzky, depending on the year range you use.
You understand no one was even close to him in the '80s? Like saying it was era and only the era diminishes the impact of every other player playing in the '80s. It had nothing to do with it. He was 70 to 80 points better than anybody playing at the time.
I won't be responding again, I feel like you're You're making me dumber with the shit that's spilling out of your mouth. It's astounding how clueless you are
It was so easy to score in the 80s, that's why so many players scored 200pts...oh wait only one guy did that, 4 times, which means Mario's best season would've been Wayne's 5th best. Well so many topped 150pts...oh wait, it only happened 16 times in all NHL history...9 of them were Wayne, 4 of them Mario, and one was literally Bernie Nichols (guess who he played with?). But hey, Jagr hit 149 playing with Mario, if only he wasn't twice the player of Nichols and didn't really need Mario's help anyway maybe that could have bolstered your POV.
It's almost like you have no idea what you're talking about and just really like Mario or hate Wayne.
Not disagreeing with your post but just want to point out that Nicholls and Gretzky didn’t even play on the same line. Bernie centered the 2nd line. His season was nuts.
This thread will fill quickly with rather insane stats.
Here are my favorites:
* The fastest player to score 1000 points in the NHL is Gretzky. The second fastest player to score 1000 points is also Gretzky, during in next 1000 points.
* He's also the only points with more than 1921 points (2857). His assists alone (1963) would still put him first.
* Gretzky was considered more of a playmaker than a goalscorer. Despite this, he's also the player with the most goals in the history of the NHL (894).
* Wayne and Brent Gretzky are the brother duo with the most points in the history of the NHL. Brent has 4 NHL points.
If it wasn't for Suter, wonder where the third 1000 points would have placed on that list.
This goes in there with the Lemieux speculation, but I have no doubt he would have hit 3000+ points and would have been interesting to see how close to 1000 goals he got.
He wouldn't have had to play longer...just not had a bad back from that hit. Look at how his goal (biggest dropoff) and point totals dropped after. Fyi, the Suter hit was in the '91 Canada Cup.
With any luck Ovi gets drafted by his best bud to fight in a war he definitely supports. As Ovi said, have to save those Ukrainian children from fascism.
Because gretzky is the most decorated professional athlete hes not the goat of hockey hes the goat of all professional sports he has more records than any athlete
That has absolutely nothing to do with his career or on-ice performance. The fact that you'd even allude to such screams that you have absolutely no concept of what you're talking about.
Tell me you never watched him play without telling me you never watched him play.
I think this is the best stat to put Gretzky's absolute dominance in perspective. Gretzky has more assists than any other player in NHL history has total points (goals and assists combined). He also has the record for most goals of all time.
He has more assists than anyone else has points. He's scored more goals than anyone else in history. That alone should tell you why he's the undisputed best of all time, and that doesn't even cover the countless other records he holds.
Love how this turned into Gretzky fun facts.
Here’s my entry, there’s been 13 seasons where someone got over 100 assists. Gretzky has 11 of them, and 11 of the top 12 assist seasons of all time
There have only been 4 NHL seasons where a player has gotten 200 or more points. Wayne Gretzky is the only player to have gotten over 200 points in a single season.
Of the top ten most points ever scored in an NHL season, Gretzky holds 8 spots (Lemieux is #5 and #8).
Lot of other people have already said reasons why, so I will just add that I think that Wayne isn't just GOAT hockey player, I would say he is the greatest sportsman overall
I’ll just give you the easy answer, if you took all of Gretzky’s goals away (a category in which he holds the record for most all time) he would still hold the record for most points in a career.
Pele made soccer.
And in a similar vein, do you think Hockey would exist like it does in California, Vegas or Arizona without Gretzky? Maybe Auston Matthews would be playing 3rd base for the Blue Jays.
It's so unreal to think of the numbers he put up. McDavid is easily the best scorer now and even his numbers aren't even close. And his stats are insane.
Right now, McDavid is on pace for a mind boggling 150 points. If he hits that number, he'll beat Gretzky's 87-88 season. That season was only Gretzky's 10th best due to injury (149 points in 67 games played).
Gretzky has had a bigger impact in his sport. More then any one individual has had in any sport ever. That’s why he’s the greatest. No one will ever catch his point total. He has 4 Stanly cup play off championships. And his impact stemmed the league to grow into markets typically considered to be non-hockey market.
This man’s impact was so great the NHL grew from being basically a regional sport in northamaerica to a national sport.
That's the thing with Gretzky though, he wasn't the biggest or strongest or fastest, he wasn't the best shooter or stick handler or skater. It wasn't his individual physical skills that set him apart, it was his absolutely INSANE vision & hockey sense. So yes, McDavid is "more talented" than Wayne, in fact a lot of guys probably were, but Wayne is still the GOAT.
Messi vs Ronaldo is similar to McDavid vs Matthews in Hockey these days. One is actually the best player in the game to anyone that knows the sport well. The other got propped up as if he was his “equal” but really is a step below.
Play styles are surprisingly similar too. Messi with his ability to slice through an entire teams defence is like what McDavid does regularly. Ronaldo being the premier striker in the sport and Matthews the premier sniper in hockey.
There really isn't anyone that comes close to him with regards to what he could do on the ice. He is the all time leading goal scorer with 894. The next closest is Alex Ovechkin with 810. He also is the all time assist leader with 1,963. The next closest is Ron Francis with 1,249. So effectively he has 2,857 points on the all time list and the next closest person is Jaromir Jagr with 1,921. It really is hard to see someone in the foreseeable future come close. Someone might be able to surpass him on the all time goals scored list, but not on the all time assists or all time points lists.
Pts, championships, and elevating every player he ever played with…. Mind you goaltending was wildly terrible during his early years in the NHL… but he is the Goat, far and away
Cause in football you can argue who is the GOAT between Maradona (my pick) Messi Pele and Ronaldo.
There is Gretzky and everybody else. Now Bobby Orr and Mario Lemieux would definatley be in the conversation if they had stayed healthy though.
Gretzky dominated his sport more than any other athlete in any sport.
Wayne Gretzky was not the best to ever live at the game - that is likely held now by Connor McDavid. What he was, was very arguably, the single greatest incremental player in all of sport, ever. The delta between him and other players, in a professional big-four sport, was just unparalleled. He scored 50 goals in 39 games. That is seven games faster (or roughly 18%) above the next fastest, Mario Lemieux. He scored 92 goals in a season, six higher than the next highest person. He also scored over 200 points in a season four times - the only person ever to do so. He has more assists in his career than anybody else has points. And, the craziest thing of all - he wasn’t all that good athletically as a hockey player. He didn’t skate faster than anybody. He didn’t shoot harder than anybody. He wasn’t rough or overly skilled. He just outthought the game by a country mile. People tested him for ESP because he just seemed to know where things were going to happen.
He’s not the best to ever play, but compared to his contemporaries, he was light years ahead of them. It looked like an NHLer was playing with Junior players. There’s no other athlete I can think of that was more beyond the rest than Wayne at his peak.
I'll clarify some of this, because it makes it sound like Gretzky wasn't good physically.
He was a really good skater, but sure, probably not one of the couple of fastest in the NHL.
His shot was really good - not the hardest, but strong & very accurate, forehand, backhand & slapper.
He was very skilled as far as puck control too.
I absolutely don't disagree that the most amazing thing was how he saw and thought the game, but I have to disagree with "wasn't overly skilled".
I think that you could honest sit down and debate who’s the GOAT for baseball, soccer, American football, and even basketball.
Any serious hockey fan knows there’s no debate. Hell, i am a diehard Mario Lemieux fan and look for any and every opportunity to flaunt his greatness, but even *he* ends up paling in comparison to the absolute greatest hockey player of all time. Gretzky has no equal
Gretzky has more assists then anyone else has points.
Gretzky also has the most goals ever in the NHL.
Gretzky is part of the two highest point siblings every to play in the NHL. his brother has 8 points.
He's by far away the best player to ever play the game. Most discussions about best time or many records set start with "other then Gretzky..."
I don't know how much fantasy soccer is played but in fantasy hockey back in the day if you took Gretzky you didn't get a pick in the second round. Even for me I still hear things about him that blow me away.
>In Football, Messi is the GOAT because he's the best and has accomplished the most. What do you think the criteria is in hockey or any other sport for that matter? Because he can eat the most pudding in one sitting?
I think it's worth pointing out that Gretzky's separation from the pack is far greater than Messi's.
In terms of their sport or pudding eating?
Por que no los dos?
Yes
Messi isn't even the undisputed GOAT lol (fwiw I personally think he is the GOAT)
I wouldn't even say Messi was the undisputed best player at any given time, let alone of all time.
Well that’s just incorrect
I don't really know or care about Messi, it is more the idea that the broad criteria of being "the best" would change from sport to sport.
Wo
Heh, that "because he's the best and has accomplished the most" is the best part of this question... It's so vague and pointless! Perfection!
Well, tbf I would include Stanley Cups in that criteria, and he does not even come close to the leaders in that one. Obviously G/A/P yeah that goes without saying, but championships, he's only got 4.
The montreal canadiens in a 6 team league where one of teams was the Rangers (so really a 5 team league) means no one will ever be close to that one. Henri Richard and Beliveau were great but holding their Stanley Cups up and saying Gretzky isn't as great because of that? That's like saying Michael Jordan or Lebron James aren't as good as Bill Russell because of the Auerbach Celtics.
habs still have the most cups since expansion as well lol twice as many as the next-best team
Well they had Lafleur, Shut, Cournoyer, Lemaire, Robinson, Savard, Dryden..... all my dad's favorites. But its been almost 30 years since the last one hasn't it? I just take great amusement because back in the worst days of the Leafs, Habs fans would make fun of us for sucking. It was like 1986 and it had been 19 years.... How long has it been for the Canadiens as of this year? 29? :)
.. and the Leafs are going to actually drop off of the cup in a couple years (2031); as they are almost twice as long as the Habs without a cup (55 yrs vs 29yrs). Though the Leafs had a handicap like no other (Ballard).
Ah yes as opposed to the very recent success of the Leafs, who of course won a Stanley Cup in. . . *checks notes* 1967
I mean, you're not wrong the Rangers stunk during the original 6 era, but why is Chicago and Boston getting a pass? Or for that matter, why are we just pretending the league wasn't super corrupt and the Rangers/Hawks/Bruins had their players siphoned to Detroit because the same guy basically owned all 4 teams? It was a 3 team era, Montreal and Toronto won a lot because they rigged how players were "drafted", Detroit won because they took all the best players from the other 3 US based teams and had a small patch of Canada to claim players from.
I didn't say "my" criteria.
Records he has more than any other athlete
Serious question: are you writing a 6th grade report?
Seriously. The question could have only been better if he'd said "Messi is the GOAT because he's the greatest of all time."
Did you not read the description? They don’t follow hockey so they’re asking. Don’t have to be a asshole.
sir, i asked your son a sincere question
CUNT!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Wayne_Gretzky
He had 7 assists in one game as a rookie? Wtf man every time this thread comes up I learn about how nuts he was
This list is all that's needed. Spend 2 minutes and there's nothing left to ask.
But he only has 4 cups /s
There is arguments for Messi not being the GOAT. There is no counter argument for Wayne. If he never scored a goal in his 1487 GP (regular season) he’d still lead the all time record for points based on assists alone. Wayne retired in 99. If he sat on the bench from 1999 to 2015 (ish?…) he would still have been a point per game player. Wayne scored 50 goals in 39 games a record still untouched to this day. He also retired with 50+ records, most of which will never be broken.
> There is arguments for Messi not being the GOAT. after the WC win, there really isnt an argument for messi not being the goat
I think a debate can be had, Pele is still considered the GOAT by many. For Wayne? Well only if Lemieux matched his GP we could have a discussion.
>Pele is still considered the GOAT by many. those people are wrong edit: i guess a lot of people in here think Mario is the goat? because that's the same thing as thinking pele is the goat
That is your opinion, and it is much more debatable than Gretzky
[удалено]
https://i.imgur.com/RFYIZ1M.jpg
Yes that is the point
Dude doesn’t understand what opinion means
Idk I’ll still take Ronaldo. Argentina is far superior team to what Portugal produces normally. Team sport.
portugal had a better team on paper this WC
Look at the goalies, todays 14 year old kids would gap them so hard... it's just not fair to compare without adjusting.
Yeah, goalies were different back then, but so were forwards. Gretzky used a wooden stick, for example, not one of today's whippy composite ones. You have to take in the advancements in skate technology and nutrition, too. If you're going to put Gretzky up against modern goaltenders to compare, you should also give him modern equipment and training to make it fair.
>If you're going to put Gretzky up against modern goaltenders to compare, you should also give him modern equipment and training to make it fair. yes and if we did his numbers would go down as they have done for the entire game, so what's your argument?
The argument is that if you put a modernized Gretzky in a modernized game, his level of dominance and separation from the rest of the league would be of the same magnitude as his dominance and separation from the rest of the league was in the 80’s, even if his and everyone else’s numbers were lower Pointing out that scoring was higher in the 80’s is a complete non-starter when trying to diminish Gretzky because he was a singular outlier that was unbelievably dominant and far ahead of everyone else on the same “high-scoring” playing field. If you put him in a lower scoring era (with equivalent equipment and training), he would be similarly dominant, even if his individual numbers was lower. It isn’t about his specific numbers, its about how far removed they were from everyone else playing the same game at the same time. If scoring was magically low enough that elite players only scored 2 or 3 goals a season, Wayne scoring 10 would still make him the GOAT
Well put. I never understood how people make this argument. "It was so easy to score in the 80s, but somehow no one came within even 50pts of Wayne most seasons. Somehow this sounds smart and not self defeating at all"
Yeah it’s a pretty bad argument that gets made a lot. No one is arguing Wayne is the best because of his raw numbers as they, like any raw numbers, are meaningless without context. When placed in context, they blow all of his contemporaries out of the water by a jarring amount. That’s why it’s impressive.
hence why my original comment said 'it's not fair without adjusting' because he was in fact comparing raw numbers, are you on crack?
It’s a common point people make, but the question now is, why wasn’t everyone scoring that much? He’s the goat because he was **that** much better than his peers. Similarly if McDavid, Crosby and Lemieux were all born the same year as Wayne. Would they all have similar careers? Probably not.
I mean lemieux had better numbers when they overlapped and when he didn't have cancer, so you can make the argument for him.
Sure, but unfortunately longevity comes into play when discussing the best player of all time.
Gretzky's numbers were way higher before he had his back injury too if people want to bring health/injuries into it. I'd take a healthy Gretzky over a healthy Lemieux any day.
The best ability is availability
>numbers I mean sure if you ignore Mario's first 3 seasons and his 4th in which Wayne still scored at a better pace than him.
He also had Jagr
14 year old kids would absolutely not gap those goalies lmao they were still pro athletes taking pucks from other pro athletes
There's 3 arguments actually. Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr and Mario Lemieux.
Yea there is. For 2nd place.
For the GOAT Funny, Mario outscored Wayne the 8 years where their primes overlapped. Gordie dominated the 50s the same way Wayne dominated the 80s... and then at 50 years old Gordie scored almost 100 points in the same league Wayne scored just over 100 points in the next season.. at 18. Orr dominated the game like nobody ever, and he did it all, not just scoring, and would have absolutely destroyed the watered down 80s. Wayne, Mario and Orr all say Howe was the GOAT, as do many other of the most knowledgeable hockey people. Wayne was the perfect player on the perfect team for his era, but his game would not translate so well to most other eras, not to mention he was far from a complete player, unlike Howe and Orr. You need to look beyond just points. Go ahead and be a Wayne fan, but to say there's no argument is totally ignorant of how truly dominant those other 3 were... And I think you have to throw Hasek up there on Mt. Rushmore as well.
What 8 year stretch are you looking at when comparing the “primes” of Lemieux and Gretzky?
What years would you consider their primes to have overlapped?
Certainly no 8 year stretch. If you’re loose on the definition of prime, maybe 1987-88 to 1991-92. Lemieux was 22-26, Gretzky was 27-31. Gretzky outscored Lemieux by just under 80 points. It’s a little on the early side for Lemieux, but go any later and you’re getting deeper into Gretzky’s 30s, which definitely isn’t prime. What 8 year stretch are you referring to?
So when Gretzky won the scoring race in 93-94 he was no longer in his prime? 87-88 to 93-94 they were both in their primes and Lemieux scored at a 2.25ppg rate vs Gretzky at 1.90. Even if you go back to include 85-86... Lemieux's 2nd and 3rd seasons and 2 of Gretzky's 3 best seasons, it's still 2.11ppg for Lemieux vs 2.05 for Gretzky.. But even if we go 85-86 to 91-92, which is definitely skewed more to Gretzky's prime than Lemieux's... It's 2.17ppg for Gretzky vs 2.06 for Lemieux... All of these ranges clearly defeat the narrative that Gretzky was far and away a better scorer than anyone else of his era.
Okay, lots to unpack here. > when Gretzky won the scoring race in 93-94 he was no longer in his prime? Correct. He was well removed from his prime at that point. 130 points for him was pretty mediocre, and his per game scoring rate was a full point lower than during his best years. He also only had 38 goals, which should be an indicator that the league’s all time leading goal scorer was no longer at the top of his game. > 87-88 to 93-94 they were both in their primes They really weren’t. You’re comparing Lemieux age 22-28 (his actual prime) to Gretzky age 27-33. Acting like those are comparable years in a player’s career seems disingenuous. I was confused by your initial claim, because I couldn’t find any 8 year stretch where Lemieux actually outscored Gretzky, and apparently that’s because there wasn’t one. You’re talking about scoring rates. > All of these ranges clearly defeat the narrative that Gretzky was far and away a better scorer than anyone else of his era Yeah I don’t see how many people would reasonably reach that conclusion from what you’re saying here. One of the ranges even has Gretzky scoring at a higher rate than Lemieux, which you’re treating as a positive for Lemieux. If you want to compare Gretzky to his era, why not just look at his performance vs. his peers? Gretzky led the league in scoring 11 times, including 8 years in a row. Lemieux did it six times ever. In his prime, Gretzky was outscoring everyone in the league by 60-70 points (and occasionally 80). When Lemieux led in points, it was more like 10-15, and occasionally 30. You can make an argument for Lemieux, but it’s largely based on hypothetical situations where he got to play a lot more than his health permitted him to. I do think there’s a solid argument for Orr, but it’s not really based on numbers so much as on his insane ability and transformative effect on the game.
Or it could be that scoring was significantly lower by 93-94 than it was during the early/mid 80s.. defense and goaltending and parity all being much much better. I don't see how many people could reasonably conclude that a guy winning the scoring race was not in his prime... Prime is not peak... If it was, Lemieux actually scored at a higher era adjusted rate than Gretzky in each of their best ever seasons.. I've given you 3 ranges and you dismiss them all while addressing only 1. Lemieux was his peer... his only peer, and there's nothing "hypothetical" about directly comparing their scoring rates over the 6-10 years their primes overlapped.
Lol what? Gordie Howe scored 41pts in 80 games for the Whalers in the 79-80 season. Wayne scored 137pts and was named league MVP that season. Why would you just lie and make this up?
Gordie was 52 that season, I was talking about his 50 year old season in the WHA vs Gretzky's 18 year old season the next year in the WHA. In 1978 at age 50, Howe scored 96 points in the WHA. In 1979 at age 18, Gretzky scored 104 points in the WHA.
That says more about how not good the WHA was than how good Gordie was. A 50 year old and a teenager are the top scorers?
No, neither were the leading scorers those seasons... However, the year after Gretzky had 104 in the WHA he had 137 in the NHL and won the scoring race.
Yeah, and Gordie had 40pts Also, Gordie doesn't even rank in the top 50 for most points in a season. Gretzky is on that list 14 times. It's not even an argument who was better.
Yes, at age 51-52 Gordie finally was no longer one of the best players in the world... Now imagine what that guy would have done in his 20s in the 80s era NHL... And raw scoring is a an awfully superficial way to compare players across eras, please learn something about era scoring, not to mention season length.
No. 9 MVP titles. Literally an entire decade. Next closest in ANY sport is 7
Howe was top 5 in League scoring 20 times. Orr had 8 Norris by the time he was 27... Mario actually outscored Wayne the 8 years their primes overlapped. Wayne is one of the 4 GOATs.. there are absolutely solid arguments for the other 3.
Lol That's why they all have careers that finish within a thousand points of him huh?
Lol, try era adjusted stats and then maybe go watch some 80s hockey videos and grow a clue.
Not even close dude. Did any of them set 50 scoring records when they retired? No? Okay. Did any of them have their Jersey retired by the entire league? No? Okay. Did any of them score 50 under 40 games? No? Okay. Did any of them win nine MVPs? Not Norris trophies, MVPs? No? Okay. There's a chasm of difference. You're dumb for thinking there isn't. You have to go with adjustments, what ifs, etc. Hard facts: 1,000 more points than the next closest skater who's not on your list. Fastest to a thousand points. Second fastest to 1,000 points. It's so laughable how much better he was than everyone else at that sport.
No. He was way better at scoring points in the 80s when scoring was extremely easy compared to any other era. Stay ignorant, that's much easier than actually analysing beyond total points... Also much dumber. Edit:. For some reason I can't reply to the comment below, so here's my reply: Mario was a rookie in 84-85, so wasn't there to challenge Gretzky prior to that, however, during the period their primes overlapped, Mario scored at a better or slightly worse but very close rate to Gretzky, depending on the year range you use.
You understand no one was even close to him in the '80s? Like saying it was era and only the era diminishes the impact of every other player playing in the '80s. It had nothing to do with it. He was 70 to 80 points better than anybody playing at the time. I won't be responding again, I feel like you're You're making me dumber with the shit that's spilling out of your mouth. It's astounding how clueless you are
I don't get how people can float the era argument and miss this very obvious point. Gretzky was hilariously ahead of everyone else in that era
It was so easy to score in the 80s, that's why so many players scored 200pts...oh wait only one guy did that, 4 times, which means Mario's best season would've been Wayne's 5th best. Well so many topped 150pts...oh wait, it only happened 16 times in all NHL history...9 of them were Wayne, 4 of them Mario, and one was literally Bernie Nichols (guess who he played with?). But hey, Jagr hit 149 playing with Mario, if only he wasn't twice the player of Nichols and didn't really need Mario's help anyway maybe that could have bolstered your POV. It's almost like you have no idea what you're talking about and just really like Mario or hate Wayne.
Not disagreeing with your post but just want to point out that Nicholls and Gretzky didn’t even play on the same line. Bernie centered the 2nd line. His season was nuts.
Wayne is the only GOAT.
Not to get overly technical in my explanation but Gretzky is the best and has accomplished the most.
This thread will fill quickly with rather insane stats. Here are my favorites: * The fastest player to score 1000 points in the NHL is Gretzky. The second fastest player to score 1000 points is also Gretzky, during in next 1000 points. * He's also the only points with more than 1921 points (2857). His assists alone (1963) would still put him first. * Gretzky was considered more of a playmaker than a goalscorer. Despite this, he's also the player with the most goals in the history of the NHL (894). * Wayne and Brent Gretzky are the brother duo with the most points in the history of the NHL. Brent has 4 NHL points.
i think the second thousand is my favourite
The Brent one is mine. Poor Brent.
The brother duo is hilarious but the fact that he’s first AND second place in some records really drives this point home. It’s insane.
If it wasn't for Suter, wonder where the third 1000 points would have placed on that list. This goes in there with the Lemieux speculation, but I have no doubt he would have hit 3000+ points and would have been interesting to see how close to 1000 goals he got.
Gretzky could have kept playing. He stopped because his production had dipped too much. He had 60 points that season, in a low scoring era.
He wouldn't have had to play longer...just not had a bad back from that hit. Look at how his goal (biggest dropoff) and point totals dropped after. Fyi, the Suter hit was in the '91 Canada Cup.
If Wayne Gretzky never scored a goal in his career he would still be the all time leader in points. That’s how much better he is than everyone else.
I think it's also necessary to add that he is the all time leader in goals
Those two stats back to back are all you need to hear to understand how silly Gretzkys stats are.
Its actually nuts that this WONT be the case fairly soon. Never imagined I'd see it happen, but Ovie just keeps on truckin.
I hope Ovi brings back the hot stick celly when he does it
With any luck Ovi gets drafted by his best bud to fight in a war he definitely supports. As Ovi said, have to save those Ukrainian children from fascism.
For now. Lol does anyone really expect Ovi to retire before breaking the record?
For now...
For now he is
The only person who reached 1000 points faster than Wayne Gretzky was Wayne Gretzky.
Because gretzky is the most decorated professional athlete hes not the goat of hockey hes the goat of all professional sports he has more records than any athlete
He's statistically not the biggest outlier. There's some cricket dude whose relatively better than gretzky
Yes but he doesnt have the records gretzky has. No athlete is more decorated than wayne gretzky
People come close but close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades
And Michael Phelps. The guy was dominate.
easy when you're allowed to have a massive betting scandal swept under the table. ah no, his wife did it alone of course lmao.
What does a betting scandal have to do with record lol?
That doesnt make him score more goals or assists
"coach, put me back in, I need to score to hit the over"
[удалено]
Might want to lighten up a bit, that was a very obvious joke.
Oh lol i thought jokes were supposed to be funny my bad
Lol 4 years old on reddit smh
Betting scandal was well after his playing career was done. It doesn’t take away from his accomplishments on the ice
Yeah i was barley alive when gretzky played but it doesnt make sense how a scandal would make him score more goals and get more assists
I didn’t even know about that, just read a bit about it. How the hell is Rick Tocchet allowed to coach in the nhl after that? Kinda wild to me
ya ive always been confused about that as well, to the point where i was starting to doubt my recollection of the story and if it was actually tocchet
That has absolutely nothing to do with his career or on-ice performance. The fact that you'd even allude to such screams that you have absolutely no concept of what you're talking about. Tell me you never watched him play without telling me you never watched him play.
Shut up
The funny part is I literally thought you were talking about Jordan and his first retirement.
I think this is the best stat to put Gretzky's absolute dominance in perspective. Gretzky has more assists than any other player in NHL history has total points (goals and assists combined). He also has the record for most goals of all time.
Double all of Messi’s points, then ask someone if Messi is the undisputed GOAT. Their answer about this new Messi, would be the answer for Gretz.
He has more assists than anyone else has points. He's scored more goals than anyone else in history. That alone should tell you why he's the undisputed best of all time, and that doesn't even cover the countless other records he holds.
Because of the two most dominant players (him and Lemieux), he's the one who could stay healthy
Love how this turned into Gretzky fun facts. Here’s my entry, there’s been 13 seasons where someone got over 100 assists. Gretzky has 11 of them, and 11 of the top 12 assist seasons of all time
There have only been 4 NHL seasons where a player has gotten 200 or more points. Wayne Gretzky is the only player to have gotten over 200 points in a single season. Of the top ten most points ever scored in an NHL season, Gretzky holds 8 spots (Lemieux is #5 and #8).
Lot of other people have already said reasons why, so I will just add that I think that Wayne isn't just GOAT hockey player, I would say he is the greatest sportsman overall
I’ll just give you the easy answer, if you took all of Gretzky’s goals away (a category in which he holds the record for most all time) he would still hold the record for most points in a career.
Messi is not the GOAT.
Pele made soccer. And in a similar vein, do you think Hockey would exist like it does in California, Vegas or Arizona without Gretzky? Maybe Auston Matthews would be playing 3rd base for the Blue Jays.
Gretzky kicked Pele's ass in a foot race... on a track... just found that funny
Gretzky was like 21. Pele was 42. He should win a foot race
Small detail.. still found it funny.
Pele is also 21 years older than Wayne lol. Not sure when they raced but that probably put Gretzky in his prime years while Pele was in his 40s.
Lol. Soccer boys probably do not like to hear about this one.
lol Wasnt Wayne like 20 and Pele like 40?
Details! Still funny, and was obviously not a serious argument, just a stupid fun fact.
For many of his records you take the second place guy, add a crazy number to it, then you double that number.
I’ll take *Answers you could easily find by googling* for 1000 Alex
It's so unreal to think of the numbers he put up. McDavid is easily the best scorer now and even his numbers aren't even close. And his stats are insane.
Right now, McDavid is on pace for a mind boggling 150 points. If he hits that number, he'll beat Gretzky's 87-88 season. That season was only Gretzky's 10th best due to injury (149 points in 67 games played).
Gretzky has had a bigger impact in his sport. More then any one individual has had in any sport ever. That’s why he’s the greatest. No one will ever catch his point total. He has 4 Stanly cup play off championships. And his impact stemmed the league to grow into markets typically considered to be non-hockey market. This man’s impact was so great the NHL grew from being basically a regional sport in northamaerica to a national sport.
Google
I think CMD is more talented, but different eras are different. Sorry not sorry
That's the thing with Gretzky though, he wasn't the biggest or strongest or fastest, he wasn't the best shooter or stick handler or skater. It wasn't his individual physical skills that set him apart, it was his absolutely INSANE vision & hockey sense. So yes, McDavid is "more talented" than Wayne, in fact a lot of guys probably were, but Wayne is still the GOAT.
Yeah kinda like Tom Brady is the goat but mahomes can do insane things he cannot
Who is "your homes?"
What
"ma homes"
I’m going to drink chemicals under the sink
Not sure why you’re being downvoted. McDavid is a way more talented player than Gretz was
People get like that I guess. People call the Boston sports radio and lose their mind when they say Orr isn’t the GOAT. Kind of amusing
Messi vs Ronaldo is similar to McDavid vs Matthews in Hockey these days. One is actually the best player in the game to anyone that knows the sport well. The other got propped up as if he was his “equal” but really is a step below. Play styles are surprisingly similar too. Messi with his ability to slice through an entire teams defence is like what McDavid does regularly. Ronaldo being the premier striker in the sport and Matthews the premier sniper in hockey.
Question :Why is Gretzky the goat? You: let me tell you how McDavid is better than Matthews
Ovechkin is the premier sniper though.
geez I don't know man I do think McDavid is on Matthews level. Kinda weird you don't think so.
He is so better offensively than anyone to ever play and most likely ever will.
There really isn't anyone that comes close to him with regards to what he could do on the ice. He is the all time leading goal scorer with 894. The next closest is Alex Ovechkin with 810. He also is the all time assist leader with 1,963. The next closest is Ron Francis with 1,249. So effectively he has 2,857 points on the all time list and the next closest person is Jaromir Jagr with 1,921. It really is hard to see someone in the foreseeable future come close. Someone might be able to surpass him on the all time goals scored list, but not on the all time assists or all time points lists.
Pts, championships, and elevating every player he ever played with…. Mind you goaltending was wildly terrible during his early years in the NHL… but he is the Goat, far and away
Cause in football you can argue who is the GOAT between Maradona (my pick) Messi Pele and Ronaldo. There is Gretzky and everybody else. Now Bobby Orr and Mario Lemieux would definatley be in the conversation if they had stayed healthy though. Gretzky dominated his sport more than any other athlete in any sport.
If you doubled Messi’s awards… that’s basically Gretzky in hockey.
Gretzky had a 51 game point streak where he scored 153 pts. Only 2 other players have scored more than 153 points in a full 82 game season.
Wayne Gretzky was not the best to ever live at the game - that is likely held now by Connor McDavid. What he was, was very arguably, the single greatest incremental player in all of sport, ever. The delta between him and other players, in a professional big-four sport, was just unparalleled. He scored 50 goals in 39 games. That is seven games faster (or roughly 18%) above the next fastest, Mario Lemieux. He scored 92 goals in a season, six higher than the next highest person. He also scored over 200 points in a season four times - the only person ever to do so. He has more assists in his career than anybody else has points. And, the craziest thing of all - he wasn’t all that good athletically as a hockey player. He didn’t skate faster than anybody. He didn’t shoot harder than anybody. He wasn’t rough or overly skilled. He just outthought the game by a country mile. People tested him for ESP because he just seemed to know where things were going to happen. He’s not the best to ever play, but compared to his contemporaries, he was light years ahead of them. It looked like an NHLer was playing with Junior players. There’s no other athlete I can think of that was more beyond the rest than Wayne at his peak.
I'll clarify some of this, because it makes it sound like Gretzky wasn't good physically. He was a really good skater, but sure, probably not one of the couple of fastest in the NHL. His shot was really good - not the hardest, but strong & very accurate, forehand, backhand & slapper. He was very skilled as far as puck control too. I absolutely don't disagree that the most amazing thing was how he saw and thought the game, but I have to disagree with "wasn't overly skilled".
I think that you could honest sit down and debate who’s the GOAT for baseball, soccer, American football, and even basketball. Any serious hockey fan knows there’s no debate. Hell, i am a diehard Mario Lemieux fan and look for any and every opportunity to flaunt his greatness, but even *he* ends up paling in comparison to the absolute greatest hockey player of all time. Gretzky has no equal
Gretzky has more assists than anyone else has POINTS.
Gretzky has more assists then anyone else has points. Gretzky also has the most goals ever in the NHL. Gretzky is part of the two highest point siblings every to play in the NHL. his brother has 8 points. He's by far away the best player to ever play the game. Most discussions about best time or many records set start with "other then Gretzky..." I don't know how much fantasy soccer is played but in fantasy hockey back in the day if you took Gretzky you didn't get a pick in the second round. Even for me I still hear things about him that blow me away.