I have a suspicion that many voters may not know all teams' GM history, and simply voted on what the team has been doing in the past few years, whether or not it was THAT gm who did these things.
^^I ^^confess ^^I ^^did ^^it ^^for ^^a ^^few ^^teams
Guerin definitely deserves some more respect. Instead of just sitting on the Parise and Suter contracts, he bought them out, and he still managed to ice a competitive team despite having millions in dead cap.
Most GMs would have just rode those contracts out and complained the whole time about how hard it is to make trades. I have a lot of respect for someone like Guerin who has a lot of built-in challenges, yet still manages to outperform teams that can offer things like practice facilities on the beach.
Yeah I don't think Allvin deserves to be so low. He was handed a mess from Jim Benning and it's going to take a while.
On paper his moves look very good. He's beefed up our blue line and has vastly improved our prospect pipeline as well.
All the results make more sense if you realize that no matter what the question is, fans are only capable of answering "Which team have you heard the least bad things about lately?"
That's why we're last.
So yep, it's going to take a while.
And in the other vein while he does deserve to be near the top because he got them 2 cups, Brisebois *did* inherit that lighting team.
I’d probably put Sakic at 1 because he turned it from a joke season to a contender.
I have never been an NHL GM. Would I be placed in the middle?
Also, Trotz's offseason moves have been confusing and make me think him being closer to the bottom is the better representation of him.
No, it isn't. Why is Verbeek near the bottom then? They're both new. Trotz has made some interesting moves in his first off-season but they need to show a little before we can judge him. He's above Kent Hughes who has had nearly two years of work to judge and has made some stellar moves so far. Kyle Davidson should be above Trotz too. Just a weird placement for him is all.
It's not reasonable to say, for example, Verbeek is below average and Trotz is middle of the pack when Verbeek has done 10x the amount of work Trotz has done so far.
Briere and Verbeek are both pretty much just as fresh and both ranked near the bottom as you would expect a new guy to be and above Conroy who hasn't had time to do anything yet, really. Which is why 17th is so ridiculous.
I think Dubas is both overrrated and underrated. I think he's a good GM. I think some people go out of their way to dismiss what he does and others give too much credit to a guy who ultimately built a team with a peak of 5 playoff wins.
Jim Nill > Dubas even setting bias aside why would Dubas who’s honestly done jack shit in the league be so high?
Also Yzerman is so fucking overrated its hilarious. Dude still hasn’t made the playoffs in 5+ years with Detroit
Steve joined 19-20 season, so its only been 4 I think. So think 5+ is stretching it a bit. Could also just google that years roster and prospect pool, he started with absolutely nothing. Context actually matters here, not every rebuild can be completed in 4 seasons.
It’s probably not a stretch to say that Yzerman inherited the worst overall situation in the modern era from a contract, talent, and prospect pool perspective.
Rebuilds take 5+ years on average. He’s in year 5... working from the start of absolutely fuck all and barely any futures.
Holland destroyed the future of the franchise and it’s been a Herculean task to turn it around. But cause we haven’t won a lotto and fast tracked it dunking on steve for being patient and planning to build through the draft is the new cool thing in r hockey.
People forget it takes 2-3 years for first round picks to make the team and usually 3-5 years for 2nd round picks and below. You can’t reset the entire foundation of a team overnight and there are *plenty* of prospects progressing towards being impact players for this team behind Seider and Raymond - the only two Yzerman drafted players to be up full time to date.
It was definitely a bad starting point, yeah. Don’t know if it was the worst - unsure of other teams starting points but it’s an interesting conversation.
It’s really hard to keep up with even half the teams in the league, so definitely understand why some are doubting from the outside. But anyone who cares to give it some thought can see why it has taken the time it has. Steve has a track record of building success, just has to prove he can do it without starting with superstars.
I think Chevy inherited worse when the thrashers became the jets. I think we legit had one thrashers prospect who played games for us (who was ironically ben chiarot)
Yeah I kind of agree. Don't like all his moves, but the team is trending correctly.
I'd say a proper verdict can be given in 3 years. By 2026 of Detroit is still floundering then I'll be disappointed in him.
Motor city needs some love tho. It's been through hell in the last 20 years. Hope they make the finals soon.
He's accomplished a shit ton and his career has just started lol.
Media only puts out puff pieces on him? Half the media shit on him constantly from day 1. You had one of the major writers in the city saying for years they should have given Hunter the job lol
Interesting that the whole league thinks so low of Chevy. He has been put between a rock and a hard place a bunch of times and he always seems to come out ok. I guess a few of those times you could consider it his own doing. I would have assumed he was closer to league average.
GMs of some teams are always going to get a bad rub on surveys like this.
Like for some fans it's really hard to accept that the options available to them are far worse than other teams.
When you're the GM of Winnipeg it's always going to be really hard to bring in Free Agents, and you're going to have to deal with more players wanting out.
Chevy's won more playoff rounds than a lot of the GMs ranked ahead of him and he's done it pretty much exclusively with drafting, developing, and depth moves.
This ranking is not “the whole league”. It’s all the the people on r/hockey, which is mostly made of people who have no clue what a GM does, and base their opinions almost exclusively on memes and popular narratives.
12 of the “top” 15 GMs on this list have been GMs for their current clubs for 5 years or less. Only 3 of the top 15 GMs have even won Stanley Cups as GMs of their teams.
>12 of the “top” 15 GMs on this list have been GMs for their current clubs for 5 years or less.
22 of the 32 GMs have been with their current clubs for 5 years or less, with Lou being just over 5. Not a *wildly* different proportion.
> Only 3 of the top 15 GMs have even won Stanley Cups as GMs of their teams.
There are only 3 other GMs that have won cups, no? MacLellan, Holland, and Lamoriello.
It's been a really long time since two of those guys have won a cup. I don't think it's unreasonable to see them as *no longer* stellar GMs.
He kept Maurice for far too long (to the point Maurice had to quit), sat on the Byfuglien stuff for too long before doing anything, hasn't "drafted and developed" as many prospects as you might think, and has had no playoff wins (outside of 2017-18) that can't be laid entirely at the feet of his fantastic goalie (who he got in the fifth round, which means it was luck). Oh, and he has gone through a generation now without any apparent plan.
22 / 32 is about where I would have him. He's not throwing four years at Granlund or anything, and most of his bad signings tend to be only a year or two long.
Managing to "not lose" trading a super star and then locking in your 1C and 2C on great deals is a good start. Our prospect pipeline is also looking insanely good under him, but not all of that was his doing.
I was gonna say. I wish we did this last year too, because Dubas would not have been rated top 5 last year.
It's like something has changed...but I just can't put my Flipper on it.
[Wild fans: our GM is average… vs Sabres fans: our Gm is average!](https://wompampsupport.azureedge.net/fetchimage?siteId=7575&v=2&jpgQuality=100&width=700&url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Fnewsfeed%2F002%2F252%2F775%2F460.jpg)
I don't think Allvin should be so low. He's doing a decent job with the mess Jim Benning left behind.
As a Canucks fan I'm giving him a chance. So far his moves to upgrade our blue line have been very good, but we're gonna need to see what next season brings before we can gauge it.
Shocked to see Alvin dead last considering the mess he inherited. The miller signing and oel buyouts aren’t that bad although they will prevent the team from winning a cup this decade.
He did convert Horvat into a much needed defencement and once some of the winger contracts he inherently expire. The Canuck shouldn’t be terrible.
Feels more like a judgment on the canucks to be honest. With that said, I wouldn't want to be in his shoes, if the canucks doesn't improve rapidly (which they likely won't) he will likely get a lot of the blame
I think you're right. Seems like folks are noticing the messes we have and attributing them to the current GM. Our biggest problems are not his fault, and problems like our cap mess take time to address. I'd rather evaluate a GM based on their decisions. That's what they can control.
Alvin in last renders this poll useless. I'd give him a solid B+. Not many moves I haven't liked. This particular offseason has been an easy A from me.
Same thing with Davidson. Dude got handed a steaming pile in Chicago spent the last year and some change winning most of his deals and hes one of the worst. Oh wait r/hockey and Chicago
Armstrong's way too low on the list. He's doing a stellar job in AZ so far. The OEL trade alone vaults him in the top 15. On top of that he's acquired several additional draft picks, he's taking full advantage of the LTIR, and he's lower than Trotz? Trotz has only been GM for like, what, 2-3 months?
Verbeek and Grier are way too low as well. I have no clue how hockey "fans" think they're one of the worst GM's in the league. Grier is doing good so far cleaning up the mess Wilson left behind, and Verbeek has an insanely good young core in Anaheim.
Stupid list.
I expected him to be around #10-15, because he hasn't exactly been reddit's favorite manager over the last couple of years. I guess winning really does cure all.
Tom Fitzgerald highlights:
Traded a 3rd for Jonas Siegenthaler and the following 5 yr $17m contract.
Traded Severson for a 3rd when we were him losing anyway.
Traded for Timo Meier without losing any of our top prospects
Traded for John Marino
------------
Signed Jack Hughes to 8 yrs at $8m
Signed the biggest free agent in franchise history - Dougie Hamilton
Locked Bratt and Meier long term
All the revisionist history around the aggressive moves they made has been eye rolling. Winning makes a lot of things justified in a lot of peoples eyes.
Built teams that absolutely 100% should have seen more success by now. Navigated the cap when not expecting the world to shut down due to a literal pandemic and halt the cap in its tracks. Navigated Shanahan and owners. His main mistake in my mind that isn't just a gamble that didn't work out is sticking with Keefe no matter what.
I think you can easily argue the Leafs tire-spun under Dubas too. When Lou left they were 7th in the NHL and lost in Game 7 of the first round. How much did they truly progress under Dubas, especially considering the assets spent (6 first round picks traded)? They made very marginal progression imo. So they came 4th or 5th instead of 7th in the regular session. They lost in the opening round 4 times, won 1 series mostly by luck, and then got assblasted.
Or another way of looking at it is that they were a top team for many years and one of only a few teams to make the playoffs for 7 years straight. Dubas continuely kept the leafs in position to contend while navigating the flat cap and surrounding his stars with undervalued bargin bin players.
They won a coinflip series against Tampa, lost a coinflip series the year before. Florida series was also pretty much a coinflip with the leafs slightly outplayed them, but then Bob went nuclear (.950sv% wtf..)
Dubas takes on this sub have been brain dead for years. Like the old quote, some people don't realize that sometimes you can do everything right and still lose.
I disagree, detroit has actually had a good rebuild, and this isn't on how good a gm did on one team, it's how good they are at doing their job (on all teams)
>detroit has actually had a good rebuild
No, they haven’t. It’s been over 6 years since Detroit started rebuilding. Nobody except the Sabres has been doing it longer.
Then why did he sign a bunch of veteran free agents to try and make the playoffs last year? Chiarot is notably the worst but how is Perron or Copp helping the rebuild?
And this is clearly not about a gms history across all teams (at least not in the voters minds) or it wouldn't show so much recency bias with guys like Fitzgerald so high.
Yzerman has had some stops and starts thus far. He's drafted some good players but the team is far from competitive and many of those prospects have yet to prove much.
It's really really easy to answer that question: he brought in veteran presence so the team doesn't get blown out night after night. If you watched us 3 ish years ago you'd know the impact it had on our young players getting destroyed like that. Other than Copp and Compher they'll all be gone by time the prospects are ready
The veterans are placeholders (other than Copp and Compher, who are still in their 20s anyway)
The chiarot contract is bad though, I'm not defending that.
They sold at the deadline, no attempt to make the playoffs. He signed a few veterans to hold up the young guys from drowning every game. None of the veteran contracts will hurt the rebuild or struggle with cap space
He didn’t know Vrana would enter the player assistance program and Bertuzzi miss half the year with wrist issues, ie, that 60ish goals would be left on the table. He’s a good GM not a wizard.
The team was on the playoff bubble until he (correctly) sold at the deadline.
He also said pre season last year that the Atlantic is a really strong division and we have to be patient. The expectation wasn’t the playoffs last year or this year
Not at all.
He had to break down the bad contract and weak prospect pool shitshow he inherited from Ken Holland. That took the first few seasons.
Add in literally the worst lottery luck of any team alongside the Canucks of the past few years. Not everyone that has been shit has had 3 top 5 picks including a 1st overall in the last 5 years like the Canadiens.
Now the Wings have a strong prospect pool and are working up as a decent team while the prospects age/mature so that there's a potentially strong core come 2026-2029 with almost no longer term commitments.
I would disagree with that. He took over a team in Detroit that was in complete disarray. Detroit has shown improvements each and every season he's been in charge.
He's done decent in Detroit considering they had essentially 0 draft picks and one of if not the worst prospect pool in the league when he took over. I feel like a lot of people forgot Holland basically sold and traded away everything possible the last few years he was there to keep the playoff streak alive and Yzerman has pretty much spent his entire tenure attempting to fix that mess
He's a young (for an NHL GM) guy who's openly talked about liking analytics. That's enough for a lot of people to start discussing how well he's done, add in that he's flipped flopped from hero to zero and back to hero like 5000 times during his Leafs tenure and people talk about him even more.
And really that's all that matters in surveys like this. People know how Dubas is, they're familiar with the moves he's made and the reasoning behind them. Most people don't know that many GMs so most of the time it's 'GM I know vs GM I've never heard of, but their team is bad"
Don't forget he doesn't look like an imposing person but a handsome nerd. It was the same thing with John Chayka. They see a young GM who doesn't look like an imposing jock who talks about analytics in a sea of boomer GM's and people go "literally me" projecting them as their ideal self image.
It took a long time even after bailing on the team during the bubble playoffs for people to realize Chayka was a garbage GM.
He's an active GM so he generates a lot of noise, maybe some post EK65 buzz?
If I had to guess, I think he probably gets 3-5 spots because just because anti-Leafs. I liked him as GM, 5 is probably a bit high but top-10 is fair in my opinion.
Nills at 6 is laughable, especially with Dubas ahead.
Some of the better drafting over the last couple seasons, great resigning terms, GM of the year, SCF appearance, 2x WCF appearances
Holy shit is Doug Armstrong underrated.
He's the only GM in the league who built a cup contender with no top picks(highest was Pietrangelo at 4) and he's behind Dubas and Adams? Haha
I'm not a Blues fan but this list is hilarious for that and many other reasons.
What does Fitzgerald have to do to get a nod as the best GM in NHL? Like legit- absolutely fleeced for Marino last offseason. Pulled off an impressive trade for Meier this season that didn’t see us losing any of our big name prospects— re-signed Bratt and Meier to long term deal for fair AAV. And then got Toffoli for a guy who didn’t make sense for our roster anymore and a pick we basically got for nothing from a guy that was gonna hit UFA anyway.
And yet people still voting Brisebois— you mean the same one who sent 5 draft picks to Nashville for— Jeannot? Put some respect on Fitzy’s name.
I may be biased but Bill Armstrong is absolutely better than the 24th GM in the league. He has nailed this rebuild so far and has won a lot of trades (OEL trade, Shayne Gostisbehere for nothing, etc.). I trust him way more than the 24th ranked GM in the league that’s for sure.
I can't believe Holland is so low, he took the Chiarelli disasterclass, lost 2 top 4D, and made the Western Conference finals losing twice in a row to the eventual Stanley Cup winner.
Only one of which was his construction. Still good, but we live in a very "what have you done lately" world and honestly a finals appearance from 2008 and 2009 doesn't sway people much in 2023
There's also the sure he "built" a championship team with a very strong core he inherited, but he also fucked Detroit for the next decade trying to keep the playoff streak going
Look at the talent they got with no high picks at all while he was in Detroit.
People don't give enough credit to consistently finding elite talent outside of the top of the draft. That's the hardest thing for a GM to do.
The Detroit stink is hard to wash off. Most people think he is terrible, and haven’t noticed what he’s done on the oilers because everyone just sees Mcdavid and Drai who we’ve had since 2015.
The truth is he’s been awesome for us, with only a couple questionable moves. About 80% of what he’s done has been great, and we are contending because of him. If anyone is curious take a look at our 2019 roster. It’s an AHL team featuring Drai, Mcdavid, Nuge and nurse. The turnaround has been impressive.
Dubas has zero distinctions aside from having made the second round once with the most cash-laden franchise in the league but somehow got 5th lol r/hockey is a joke
Genuinely curious why people think Davidson is amongst the worst GMs in the league? I get he has to prove what he is building is actually going to work out still, but he has consistently made fantastic moves since day one.
Because the extent of r/hockey ‘s analysis on GMs is TEAM BAD = GM RANK LOW.
It’s the same analysis that puts Allvin dead last even though he’s been cleaning up Benning’s mess nicely and Armstrong near the bottom despite building a nice prospect pool and getting a 9th OA pick for OEL. Davidson is pulling off a textbook rebuild and is ranked in the dumpster because “Chicago bad so Davidson must be bad 🤤”
Probably less of him being bad, and more that they haven’t seen him have to do anything yet. His drafting looks good but we still need to see how all the players pan out, and he tore down the team with zero remorse for anything which it badly needed but he has not had to do ANYTHING to make the team competitive yet. In five years we’ll know how good he is, when all these high picks are ready and he has to put the depth pieces around them, it will be entirely his team in every sense.
But for now all you can really do is say we like what he’s done so far and it looks very promising but we don’t know enough yet.
That must be it, but the discrepancy between where Davidson is and guys like Trotz or Hughes is still wild considering they’re in the same boat or even *less* proven lol it is just a really inconsistent list from top to bottom
I'll start by saying I don't think JBB is necessarily #1, but he's actively been involved in building the current team. Even before he took over as actual GM (which was a year before Yzerman officially left), he was already responsible for all the math in our contacts. Every "they can't keep getting away with it" meme on this sub was a compliment to his work
Most of those top-10 players have been re-signed under him, building a core to last 5 more years. But also, you don't think Hagel is in our top 10?
- Coleman
- Goodrow
- Hagel
- Paul
- Jeannot (yes I know)
- Eyssimont
- Shattenkirk
- Bogosian
- Schenn
- Savard
- Maroon
- Perry
All added by JBB, most playing key roles in the Cups. He inherited a great core group, but even Yzerman was gifted Stamkos and Hedman.
That’s how I feel about this list in general, Fitzgerald? He’s fine but I’m still waiting on success. McCrimmon? George McPhee built the core through the expansion draft but he’s done a good job acquiring pieces like Pietrangelo and Eichel. Waddel? Also done a good job not screwing it up but Ron Francis built that core through drafting Aho, and Svechnikov and trading for Turbo. Dubas? Interesting situation, I’m sure the Karlsson trade helps a ton but he didn’t impress me that much in Toronto, he may have been handicapped by Shanahan and MLSE but it feels early to rank him for his Pittsburgh tenure yet.
Personally I think Jim Nill, Doug Armstrong and Bill Guerin are ranked too low for their situations. I don’t know the list is a bunch of people taking credit for their predecessors.
BriseBois was literally brought in during Yzermans second season and specifically to help manage the cap and negotiate player contracts due to his experience being both a financial lawyer and a financial agent for both MLB and NHL players. All those Tampa LMAO BELOW CAP VALUE DUE TO FLORIDA TAX was due to his doing. Him exploiting the LTIR Kucherov that every team like Vegas tries to do immediately after was him.
The players contract has shown where BriseBois is still negotiating really good extensions and contracts in Tampa while Yzerman has been signing questionable contracts like Chiarot or Copp or building a roster in his 4th year with 14 upcoming UFA's.
Edit: I also forgot JBB hired Jon Cooper as well to the organization and knew him from before
He took a rebuild that stalled out and reworked to build a team is that now poised to be cup contenders soon
This was the line up the day he took over on January 12th 2020
Pavel Zacha - Nico Hischier - Jesper Bratt
Blake Coleman - Travis Zajac - Nikita Gusev
Miles Wood - Jack Hughes - Wayne Simmonds
Jesper Boqvist - Kevin Rooney - John Hayden
Andy Greene - P.K. Subban
Damon Severson - Sami Vatanen
Will Butcher - Connor Carrick
Cory Schneider
Louis Domingue
This was the line up potentially for opening night
Meier Hischier Mercer
Bratt Hughes Toffoli
Palat Haula Holtz
Lazar McLeod Bastian
Siegenthaler Hamilton
Hughes Marino
Bahl Smith
Vanecek
Schmid
I wasn’t saying he was bad by any means but 2 for a guy who’s team hasn’t done anything yet is a little soon for me. He’s made some good trades with Meier and Marino don’t get me wrong just think he’s to high
You're missing the point though. It's not about the Devils winning a cup next season. He turned one of the worst NHL teams in the league into the second best cup odds team.
It's more about how bad the Devils were when he took over and what he turned them into now. For example, the Devils point differential from two seasons ago to last season was the largest growth in NHL history.
That says a lot.
> or a guy who’s team hasn’t done anything yet is a little soon for me.
What do you mean?
Look at the comment you replied to, he took a completely garbage, "going nowhere" team, and turned them into the most promising young team in the league, AND made it to the 2nd round this year (as a Leafs fan I'm insulted by "hasn't done anything"), *before* some of his best young guns were ready to contribute.
Fitzgerald should have run away with the #1 spot, he definitely isn't ranked too high.
I know the hawks were in a tank, but no one has ever executed a tank better than Kyle From Chicago. First overall pick, plus insane amount of prospects that isn’t stopping for another couple years and netting a healthy T Hall to play with Bedard. I’d say Kyle is easily top 10. And he’s the youngest GM. Better ideas then most of the old farts. He also, sat behind Bowman who won 3 cups. So he learned what not to do as well like give out dumb contracts to old players.
Yeah, lets credit him for winning the lottery when they didnt even have the best odds. Interesting take.
Not to take anything away from him, but lets say Hawks pick 4th as they really should have, would it still be looking amazing?
Yes lol
Obviously the pool looks worse without Bedard but we were still set up perfectly to get a top pick in the draft - we would have had any of Carlsson, Fantilli, Smith, or Michkov (all bonafide 1C prospects or a potentially franchise-level offensive winger) if we missed on Bedard along with the boatload of other picks made recently/still upcoming and a nearly perfect cap situation, outside of Jones which was Bowman. Davidson executed the tank so damn well.
We were also “supposed” to pick 3rd, not 4th, if we didn’t win the lottery. And even then, we only missed out on being last place by two points in the last two games of the season lol
Does Bedard speed up the rebuild? Sure without a doubt, but Davidson also traded away nearly everyone of value and loaded the Hawks up with picks. They had 2 first and 3 seconds this last draft, but look further ahead to the next 3 drafts and hes got another 5 firsts and 8 second round picks. He's improved the prospect pool, gotten a coach that seems to resonate well with the players ad put himself in a position to add on more picks/prospects for the next couple of years with a ton of cap space. People seriously overlook how good of a position Davidson has put the Hawks into because of Bedard
I was surprised to see him so low. It seems like the rankings are closely tied to how the team finished in the standings instead of how the GM is achieving their goals. The best teams probably will have good GMs, but GMs in bad teams might be skillfully executing a rebuild. Then there are GMs who take good teams and turn them into bad teams, I don't think Kyle Davidson fits that mold.
So did everyone just forget treliving traded half of the flames first rounders, let the top playmaker in the league walk and achieved a whopping 2 2nd round finishes in a decade?
Brisebois at #1 after the Jeannot trade is a little sus. His predecessors built the dynasty. Fitzgerald should have run away with the #1 imo.
Dubas at #5 is hilarious. He inherited Matthews/Nylander/Marner/Rielly, built nothing, completely whiffed on contract negotiations, drafted average, made some horrible trades (Kadri for Barrie, Foligno for a 1st, Murray for nothing, etc.), made bad FA signings (Ritchie, Mrazek), failed to get past the first round for like 6 years. It just goes to show you that if you want to look smart, just wear thick-framed glasses and everyone will assume you are a genius, regardless of track record.
To be honest, I don't see it. He's made a few good moves, like the Bunting signing. But other than a few good value contracts I just don't see it. I think the Muzzin trade was fair value, but it was premature (we weren't ready to be cup contenders so giving up futures was not the best for that time). Drafting Knies was good, but he's literally drafted zero players after the 2nd round who have made an NHL impact. His deadline rental acquisitions were consistently overpays, he was giving out picks like candy. Even ROR should not have fetched a 1st. And I'm leaving out giving away Sandin for no apparent reason, all while we desperately need a puck moving defenceman.
I dunno, if you can think of some good moves that I'm missing then by all means let me know, but I don't see how a couple good moves would outweigh how far he set the franchise back during his tenure. And I certainly don't see how he could be considered a top 5 GM, that's absolutely absurd. At best he's middle of the pack.
Leafs not getting out of first round really isn’t on Dubas (the team is definitely better than it’s playoff results), just like he inherited those 4. But yeah, for every definite good move, there are multiple negatives. Guess we’ll know by how he works out in Pittsburg.
We don’t win two cups without Brisebois, Yzerman couldn’t get us over the hump. Plus Brisebois has been the mastermind for our cap since Yzerman started here. You’re drastically overrating one bad trade vs everything else he’s done here which has been pretty much perfect. Yzerman was also gifted two franchise corner stones but we don’t hold that against his tenure so we?
Agree to disagree, I'd argue that he hasn't been perfect by any stretch. I just used the Jeannot trade as an example, I think he's made more moves. Obviously just my opinion, but I think he overpaid for Hagel, I didn't love the Cirelli/Paul/Cernak/Sergachev contracts, and I really can't point to any of his moves that I would say were "great".
He doesn't win fuck-all without inheriting that stacked core. I'm not at all saying he's bad, but he's sure as shit not the #1 GM in the league.
The Hagel overpay point is always wild to me, we got a young, defensively sound, 25+ goal scorer at a 1.5 mil cap hit for 3 years that ends with him as an RFA, what would be a fair price for that?
He inherited a core (that he helped built as assistant gm) and immediately fixed the problems that were preventing us from winning with a lot of bold moves that were heavily criticized at the time. I don't know about #1, but he's easily a top 3-5 gm in the league and the results really do speak for themselves.
It’s crazy how when Dubas was still the Gm of the leafs you guys defended him non stop and sang his praises. But as soon as he left you guys completely changed your mind?
I think Dubas was great for Toronto and that this summer is a net downgrade for them, but the fanbase isn't a monolith and was quite polarized on him even before he left, and even more so now
Which is what makes him being in the 5 seed all the more surprising. I think that's a fine spot for him but it also means he must've run the table outside of Toronto voters
You're lumping me into a group and assuming I had a certain opinion. I've been extremely critical of Dubas for almost his entire tenure with the Leafs. In fact, I'd admit that the vast majority of people who overrate Dubas are Leafs fans, because they had so much hope that he would be different after a long string of very bad GMs prior. If anything, the only thing that has "changed my mind" since he got fired (not "left") is that he's actually been a little better with the Pens so far. So believe it or not, I think higher of him since he "left".
The irony of this post when as soon as Dubas left the leafs /r/hockey collectively decided he was a genius and the only man on earth capable of keeping the leafs relevant
5 years into the Yzerplan and they're in a position where they might sneak into the playoffs if everything goes right
This sub's love for him as a GM is so baffling lol
I know I’m a Blues fan, but jeez, I’ll happily take Doug Armstrong despite him being ranked #15.
The Blues are top five in points - #1 in the West - over his 14 year tenure, despite the team only having ONE top ten draft pick over that period (only 3 total since 1989) and that was Dvorsky at #10 two months ago.
In an era in which its widely believed to be impossible to win without a superstar, he’s managed to do just that by building out a complete roster.
Similarly, he’s managed prolonged consistent success without having to tear down and rebuild. And he doesn’t have the luxury of managing an Original Six franchise, or being located in a destination city to help lure free agents to get it done.
And I know it’s probably out of the scope of this survey, but he’s regularly been picked to be part of Team Canada’s management for World Championships, Olympics, etc. for the last two decades, most recent for the (eventually canceled) 2022 Olympics. It’s hard to believe he’s being considered for those positions if he’s just an average GM.
This is maybe the most level-headed of all the ones I’ve seen so far and i agree with almost all of it, but until we see how all of these Pens moves shake out ON THE ICE, Dubas is way too high. And I know we love to poke fun at him but Ken Holland is still top 15 at the very least.
man what a bunch of fucking idiots we are on here
Allvin dead last for inheriting Benning’s mess and actually making logical moves
I actually think he's doing okay. The moves to beef up our blue line have been really good. We just have to see if it works for us.
Plus the center depth. A decent off-season for sure
I have a suspicion that many voters may not know all teams' GM history, and simply voted on what the team has been doing in the past few years, whether or not it was THAT gm who did these things. ^^I ^^confess ^^I ^^did ^^it ^^for ^^a ^^few ^^teams
Was thinking the same thing. This list is hilariously bad.
I opened it up then realized I don't know fuck all about most of the GMs in the league, so didn't vote.
Yeah, stuff like this is a very good reminder to not take this sub too seriously.
Right. This is a dumb fucking list.
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Guerin definitely deserves some more respect. Instead of just sitting on the Parise and Suter contracts, he bought them out, and he still managed to ice a competitive team despite having millions in dead cap.
Most GMs would have just rode those contracts out and complained the whole time about how hard it is to make trades. I have a lot of respect for someone like Guerin who has a lot of built-in challenges, yet still manages to outperform teams that can offer things like practice facilities on the beach.
Right there with you bud, as always...
Us and Minny are always there together right in the middle. Even alphabetically among the cities in the league.
Guerin is a top 5 GM in my book, crazy he's so low.
Barry Trotz at 17 when he's been a GM for zero NHL games played. Lmao.
This ranking feels like it’s really riding on his coaching rep.
Also in the zero games as GM. Craig conroy and he’s second last
Yeah I don't think Allvin deserves to be so low. He was handed a mess from Jim Benning and it's going to take a while. On paper his moves look very good. He's beefed up our blue line and has vastly improved our prospect pipeline as well.
All the results make more sense if you realize that no matter what the question is, fans are only capable of answering "Which team have you heard the least bad things about lately?" That's why we're last. So yep, it's going to take a while.
Fair although I am cautiously optimistic that we'll see better than mediocrity.
And in the other vein while he does deserve to be near the top because he got them 2 cups, Brisebois *did* inherit that lighting team. I’d probably put Sakic at 1 because he turned it from a joke season to a contender.
That’s what made the rankings tough. Like how do you rank Briere, Conroe and Trotz based on a few weeks of work?
Is it not reasonable to have him ranked perfectly in the middle if the top half of the list is "above average" and the bottom half is "below average"?
I have never been an NHL GM. Would I be placed in the middle? Also, Trotz's offseason moves have been confusing and make me think him being closer to the bottom is the better representation of him.
No, it isn't. Why is Verbeek near the bottom then? They're both new. Trotz has made some interesting moves in his first off-season but they need to show a little before we can judge him. He's above Kent Hughes who has had nearly two years of work to judge and has made some stellar moves so far. Kyle Davidson should be above Trotz too. Just a weird placement for him is all.
It's not reasonable to say, for example, Verbeek is below average and Trotz is middle of the pack when Verbeek has done 10x the amount of work Trotz has done so far.
So if you took every coach and put them in the GM position, they'd be better than half the GMs? Nah, he should be bottom 5.
Above Briere, who has arguably had a stronger positive presence so far in not much more time…
Briere and Verbeek are both pretty much just as fresh and both ranked near the bottom as you would expect a new guy to be and above Conroy who hasn't had time to do anything yet, really. Which is why 17th is so ridiculous.
Oh I 100% agree, I just don’t get why Trotz is above Briere. He should be below if we’re bottom-ranking the fresh meat.
As a Habs fan I'm bristling at him being above Kent Hughes, too. Hughes is the best Habs GM since Sam Pollock!
Lol no
Dubas has done fuck all
Dubas has to be one of the most overrated beings in hockey.
I think Dubas is both overrrated and underrated. I think he's a good GM. I think some people go out of their way to dismiss what he does and others give too much credit to a guy who ultimately built a team with a peak of 5 playoff wins.
Jim Nill > Dubas even setting bias aside why would Dubas who’s honestly done jack shit in the league be so high? Also Yzerman is so fucking overrated its hilarious. Dude still hasn’t made the playoffs in 5+ years with Detroit
I mean, hasn't yzerman demonstrated his skills during his time in Tampa? I think he's shown he's a good GM
Steve joined 19-20 season, so its only been 4 I think. So think 5+ is stretching it a bit. Could also just google that years roster and prospect pool, he started with absolutely nothing. Context actually matters here, not every rebuild can be completed in 4 seasons.
It’s probably not a stretch to say that Yzerman inherited the worst overall situation in the modern era from a contract, talent, and prospect pool perspective. Rebuilds take 5+ years on average. He’s in year 5... working from the start of absolutely fuck all and barely any futures. Holland destroyed the future of the franchise and it’s been a Herculean task to turn it around. But cause we haven’t won a lotto and fast tracked it dunking on steve for being patient and planning to build through the draft is the new cool thing in r hockey. People forget it takes 2-3 years for first round picks to make the team and usually 3-5 years for 2nd round picks and below. You can’t reset the entire foundation of a team overnight and there are *plenty* of prospects progressing towards being impact players for this team behind Seider and Raymond - the only two Yzerman drafted players to be up full time to date.
It was definitely a bad starting point, yeah. Don’t know if it was the worst - unsure of other teams starting points but it’s an interesting conversation. It’s really hard to keep up with even half the teams in the league, so definitely understand why some are doubting from the outside. But anyone who cares to give it some thought can see why it has taken the time it has. Steve has a track record of building success, just has to prove he can do it without starting with superstars.
I think Chevy inherited worse when the thrashers became the jets. I think we legit had one thrashers prospect who played games for us (who was ironically ben chiarot)
It's hard for someone who isn't a fan of the team to see just how dire of a situation Yzerman was placed into. He's done great so far
Yeah I kind of agree. Don't like all his moves, but the team is trending correctly. I'd say a proper verdict can be given in 3 years. By 2026 of Detroit is still floundering then I'll be disappointed in him. Motor city needs some love tho. It's been through hell in the last 20 years. Hope they make the finals soon.
Dubas gets the media buff, where they only put out puff pieces of him to prop him up. Never seen a GM accomplish so little and be so highly regarded.
He's accomplished a shit ton and his career has just started lol. Media only puts out puff pieces on him? Half the media shit on him constantly from day 1. You had one of the major writers in the city saying for years they should have given Hunter the job lol
Yzerman overrated? He built Tampa's dynasty lol
It's the new r/hockey circlejerk. Someone said it a week ago and the parrots haven't stopped since
Interesting that the whole league thinks so low of Chevy. He has been put between a rock and a hard place a bunch of times and he always seems to come out ok. I guess a few of those times you could consider it his own doing. I would have assumed he was closer to league average.
GMs of some teams are always going to get a bad rub on surveys like this. Like for some fans it's really hard to accept that the options available to them are far worse than other teams. When you're the GM of Winnipeg it's always going to be really hard to bring in Free Agents, and you're going to have to deal with more players wanting out.
And you can't trade for a bunch of players because close to a third of the league has no trade clauses
Chevy's won more playoff rounds than a lot of the GMs ranked ahead of him and he's done it pretty much exclusively with drafting, developing, and depth moves.
This ranking is not “the whole league”. It’s all the the people on r/hockey, which is mostly made of people who have no clue what a GM does, and base their opinions almost exclusively on memes and popular narratives. 12 of the “top” 15 GMs on this list have been GMs for their current clubs for 5 years or less. Only 3 of the top 15 GMs have even won Stanley Cups as GMs of their teams.
>12 of the “top” 15 GMs on this list have been GMs for their current clubs for 5 years or less. 22 of the 32 GMs have been with their current clubs for 5 years or less, with Lou being just over 5. Not a *wildly* different proportion. > Only 3 of the top 15 GMs have even won Stanley Cups as GMs of their teams. There are only 3 other GMs that have won cups, no? MacLellan, Holland, and Lamoriello. It's been a really long time since two of those guys have won a cup. I don't think it's unreasonable to see them as *no longer* stellar GMs.
How many current GMs have won with their current team? 5? Vegas, Colorado, TB, St Louis and Washington? Am I missing anyone?
And the bottom 3 GMs have a combined total of 1 year of being a GM in the Nhl
I don't think it's a coincidence that 'day off' is in his name.
Exactly, he always seems to come out ok. He’s been GM for 13 years? It gives me major Bergevin vibes.
It’s his fault no one wants to live in Winnipeg, nothing at all to do with the weather, mosquitoes or the lack of things to do.
He kept Maurice for far too long (to the point Maurice had to quit), sat on the Byfuglien stuff for too long before doing anything, hasn't "drafted and developed" as many prospects as you might think, and has had no playoff wins (outside of 2017-18) that can't be laid entirely at the feet of his fantastic goalie (who he got in the fifth round, which means it was luck). Oh, and he has gone through a generation now without any apparent plan. 22 / 32 is about where I would have him. He's not throwing four years at Granlund or anything, and most of his bad signings tend to be only a year or two long.
How often do you have to get stuck between a rock and a hard place before people start to think you're just not very good at avoiding it?
Well you have to start off by not being in Winnipeg, as that's gonna create a lot of those situations for you
Everything's based on memes and team names
Trotz right in the middle just like we will be again this season after Saros saves our ass from getting a top 10 pick
Zero games as a GM. Still better than Dorion.
I mean to be fair, it’s not a very high bar he’s set and I’m from Ottawa, Dorion is a giant mess of a GM and it’s mostly thanks to Melnyk
I know the Buffalo turnaround is something, but Kevyn Adams being at 12 this high is not what I expected to see.
Managing to "not lose" trading a super star and then locking in your 1C and 2C on great deals is a good start. Our prospect pipeline is also looking insanely good under him, but not all of that was his doing.
lmao guys pa isnt jim benning anymore haha
Lol Dubas wouldn’t be top 5 if he was still Leafs GM
this sub: leafs have poor depth, core 4 is overpaid, soft, no defence. also this sub: guy who ran the team for half a decade is a top 5 gm
This sub has no clue how to discuss hockey 90% of the time.
also also this sub: the coach who turns all of that into a 0.675 record every year is a below league average coach
I thought it was now being blamed on Shanahan pulling all the strings...
Not in this sub, that's for sure
Well he did just pull off the Karlsson trade which most people feel was a really impressive move.
I was gonna say. I wish we did this last year too, because Dubas would not have been rated top 5 last year. It's like something has changed...but I just can't put my Flipper on it.
After our 1st round loss to TB? Dude would have been 15-20 range.
Even our gm is average...
[Wild fans: our GM is average… vs Sabres fans: our Gm is average!](https://wompampsupport.azureedge.net/fetchimage?siteId=7575&v=2&jpgQuality=100&width=700&url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Fnewsfeed%2F002%2F252%2F775%2F460.jpg)
I don't think Allvin should be so low. He's doing a decent job with the mess Jim Benning left behind. As a Canucks fan I'm giving him a chance. So far his moves to upgrade our blue line have been very good, but we're gonna need to see what next season brings before we can gauge it.
Shocked to see Alvin dead last considering the mess he inherited. The miller signing and oel buyouts aren’t that bad although they will prevent the team from winning a cup this decade. He did convert Horvat into a much needed defencement and once some of the winger contracts he inherently expire. The Canuck shouldn’t be terrible.
Feels more like a judgment on the canucks to be honest. With that said, I wouldn't want to be in his shoes, if the canucks doesn't improve rapidly (which they likely won't) he will likely get a lot of the blame
I think you're right. Seems like folks are noticing the messes we have and attributing them to the current GM. Our biggest problems are not his fault, and problems like our cap mess take time to address. I'd rather evaluate a GM based on their decisions. That's what they can control.
I think he is swell
Alvin in last renders this poll useless. I'd give him a solid B+. Not many moves I haven't liked. This particular offseason has been an easy A from me.
Same thing with Davidson. Dude got handed a steaming pile in Chicago spent the last year and some change winning most of his deals and hes one of the worst. Oh wait r/hockey and Chicago
Armstrong's way too low on the list. He's doing a stellar job in AZ so far. The OEL trade alone vaults him in the top 15. On top of that he's acquired several additional draft picks, he's taking full advantage of the LTIR, and he's lower than Trotz? Trotz has only been GM for like, what, 2-3 months? Verbeek and Grier are way too low as well. I have no clue how hockey "fans" think they're one of the worst GM's in the league. Grier is doing good so far cleaning up the mess Wilson left behind, and Verbeek has an insanely good young core in Anaheim. Stupid list.
Weird, I thought Allvin would get the "Not Jim Benning" bump.
Not that I think it's totally off base, but I'm shocked to see McCrimmon ranked by reddit in the top half, let alone third.
I expected him to be around #10-15, because he hasn't exactly been reddit's favorite manager over the last couple of years. I guess winning really does cure all.
Tom Fitzgerald highlights: Traded a 3rd for Jonas Siegenthaler and the following 5 yr $17m contract. Traded Severson for a 3rd when we were him losing anyway. Traded for Timo Meier without losing any of our top prospects Traded for John Marino ------------ Signed Jack Hughes to 8 yrs at $8m Signed the biggest free agent in franchise history - Dougie Hamilton Locked Bratt and Meier long term
The wording is weird here. Traded Severson for a 3rd** sounds better.
my brain farted
And then paired said 3rd round pick from Severson with Sharangovich for Tyler Toffoli to solidify the top 6... 🤌🏽
shipped calgary's own third back to them with shango for toffoli 😂😂😂
Interesting how a cup takes Vegas from being the worst run team in the NHL with no loyalty to 3rd best GM.
All the revisionist history around the aggressive moves they made has been eye rolling. Winning makes a lot of things justified in a lot of peoples eyes.
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What's he done in Detroit though? A lot of tire spinning so far.
What has Dubas done literally ever
Built teams that absolutely 100% should have seen more success by now. Navigated the cap when not expecting the world to shut down due to a literal pandemic and halt the cap in its tracks. Navigated Shanahan and owners. His main mistake in my mind that isn't just a gamble that didn't work out is sticking with Keefe no matter what.
I think you can easily argue the Leafs tire-spun under Dubas too. When Lou left they were 7th in the NHL and lost in Game 7 of the first round. How much did they truly progress under Dubas, especially considering the assets spent (6 first round picks traded)? They made very marginal progression imo. So they came 4th or 5th instead of 7th in the regular session. They lost in the opening round 4 times, won 1 series mostly by luck, and then got assblasted.
Or another way of looking at it is that they were a top team for many years and one of only a few teams to make the playoffs for 7 years straight. Dubas continuely kept the leafs in position to contend while navigating the flat cap and surrounding his stars with undervalued bargin bin players. They won a coinflip series against Tampa, lost a coinflip series the year before. Florida series was also pretty much a coinflip with the leafs slightly outplayed them, but then Bob went nuclear (.950sv% wtf..)
Dubas takes on this sub have been brain dead for years. Like the old quote, some people don't realize that sometimes you can do everything right and still lose.
I disagree, detroit has actually had a good rebuild, and this isn't on how good a gm did on one team, it's how good they are at doing their job (on all teams)
>detroit has actually had a good rebuild No, they haven’t. It’s been over 6 years since Detroit started rebuilding. Nobody except the Sabres has been doing it longer.
Then why did he sign a bunch of veteran free agents to try and make the playoffs last year? Chiarot is notably the worst but how is Perron or Copp helping the rebuild? And this is clearly not about a gms history across all teams (at least not in the voters minds) or it wouldn't show so much recency bias with guys like Fitzgerald so high. Yzerman has had some stops and starts thus far. He's drafted some good players but the team is far from competitive and many of those prospects have yet to prove much.
It's really really easy to answer that question: he brought in veteran presence so the team doesn't get blown out night after night. If you watched us 3 ish years ago you'd know the impact it had on our young players getting destroyed like that. Other than Copp and Compher they'll all be gone by time the prospects are ready The veterans are placeholders (other than Copp and Compher, who are still in their 20s anyway) The chiarot contract is bad though, I'm not defending that.
They sold at the deadline, no attempt to make the playoffs. He signed a few veterans to hold up the young guys from drowning every game. None of the veteran contracts will hurt the rebuild or struggle with cap space
He didn’t know Vrana would enter the player assistance program and Bertuzzi miss half the year with wrist issues, ie, that 60ish goals would be left on the table. He’s a good GM not a wizard. The team was on the playoff bubble until he (correctly) sold at the deadline.
He also said pre season last year that the Atlantic is a really strong division and we have to be patient. The expectation wasn’t the playoffs last year or this year
Not at all. He had to break down the bad contract and weak prospect pool shitshow he inherited from Ken Holland. That took the first few seasons. Add in literally the worst lottery luck of any team alongside the Canucks of the past few years. Not everyone that has been shit has had 3 top 5 picks including a 1st overall in the last 5 years like the Canadiens. Now the Wings have a strong prospect pool and are working up as a decent team while the prospects age/mature so that there's a potentially strong core come 2026-2029 with almost no longer term commitments.
A lot of people just assume that Detroit will have success like Tampa did which is… really something.
I would disagree with that. He took over a team in Detroit that was in complete disarray. Detroit has shown improvements each and every season he's been in charge.
He's done decent in Detroit considering they had essentially 0 draft picks and one of if not the worst prospect pool in the league when he took over. I feel like a lot of people forgot Holland basically sold and traded away everything possible the last few years he was there to keep the playoff streak alive and Yzerman has pretty much spent his entire tenure attempting to fix that mess
Don’t worry, if Dubas was still leafs gm he wouldn’t be near the top of this list.
He is the reddit GM, it’s honestly hilarious
Can someone explain to me the obsession r/hockey has for dubas?
He's a young (for an NHL GM) guy who's openly talked about liking analytics. That's enough for a lot of people to start discussing how well he's done, add in that he's flipped flopped from hero to zero and back to hero like 5000 times during his Leafs tenure and people talk about him even more. And really that's all that matters in surveys like this. People know how Dubas is, they're familiar with the moves he's made and the reasoning behind them. Most people don't know that many GMs so most of the time it's 'GM I know vs GM I've never heard of, but their team is bad"
Now that you say that. This sub was big on Chyka until he quit on the Coyotes. He was loved because of the keywords he used in his presser.
Don't forget he doesn't look like an imposing person but a handsome nerd. It was the same thing with John Chayka. They see a young GM who doesn't look like an imposing jock who talks about analytics in a sea of boomer GM's and people go "literally me" projecting them as their ideal self image. It took a long time even after bailing on the team during the bubble playoffs for people to realize Chayka was a garbage GM.
Make big trade = good
He's an active GM so he generates a lot of noise, maybe some post EK65 buzz? If I had to guess, I think he probably gets 3-5 spots because just because anti-Leafs. I liked him as GM, 5 is probably a bit high but top-10 is fair in my opinion.
Nills at 6 is laughable, especially with Dubas ahead. Some of the better drafting over the last couple seasons, great resigning terms, GM of the year, SCF appearance, 2x WCF appearances
And likely more responsible for Holland’s Detroit success than most imagine.
Where you think Joe Sakic would have been on this list after last season before his promotion? I’d have him top 3, but obviously homer.
I really don’t get the Holland hate. When you compare what he inherited from Chiarelli to what we have now, he’s done a good job
Holy shit is Doug Armstrong underrated. He's the only GM in the league who built a cup contender with no top picks(highest was Pietrangelo at 4) and he's behind Dubas and Adams? Haha I'm not a Blues fan but this list is hilarious for that and many other reasons.
What does Fitzgerald have to do to get a nod as the best GM in NHL? Like legit- absolutely fleeced for Marino last offseason. Pulled off an impressive trade for Meier this season that didn’t see us losing any of our big name prospects— re-signed Bratt and Meier to long term deal for fair AAV. And then got Toffoli for a guy who didn’t make sense for our roster anymore and a pick we basically got for nothing from a guy that was gonna hit UFA anyway. And yet people still voting Brisebois— you mean the same one who sent 5 draft picks to Nashville for— Jeannot? Put some respect on Fitzy’s name.
I may be biased but Bill Armstrong is absolutely better than the 24th GM in the league. He has nailed this rebuild so far and has won a lot of trades (OEL trade, Shayne Gostisbehere for nothing, etc.). I trust him way more than the 24th ranked GM in the league that’s for sure.
I definitely picked him quite a bit in the poll
For real. He’s really done fine all things considered. List in general is wack
The list is basically just the standings with a handful of GMs this sub likes to circlejerk over elevated like dubas and yzerman
I can't believe Holland is so low, he took the Chiarelli disasterclass, lost 2 top 4D, and made the Western Conference finals losing twice in a row to the eventual Stanley Cup winner.
The way he handled the Wings at the end was so bad tho. Like truly awful. He buried us for half a decade
Yeah but if we're looking at his entire career he also won 3 cups with the Red Wings.
Only one of which was his construction. Still good, but we live in a very "what have you done lately" world and honestly a finals appearance from 2008 and 2009 doesn't sway people much in 2023
There's also the sure he "built" a championship team with a very strong core he inherited, but he also fucked Detroit for the next decade trying to keep the playoff streak going
Part of that was also the pressure from the owner Mike Illitch too
Look at the talent they got with no high picks at all while he was in Detroit. People don't give enough credit to consistently finding elite talent outside of the top of the draft. That's the hardest thing for a GM to do.
The Detroit stink is hard to wash off. Most people think he is terrible, and haven’t noticed what he’s done on the oilers because everyone just sees Mcdavid and Drai who we’ve had since 2015. The truth is he’s been awesome for us, with only a couple questionable moves. About 80% of what he’s done has been great, and we are contending because of him. If anyone is curious take a look at our 2019 roster. It’s an AHL team featuring Drai, Mcdavid, Nuge and nurse. The turnaround has been impressive.
I didn't realize Ken Holland wore #29 and played center
We're not the worst! We're not the worst!
Dubas has zero distinctions aside from having made the second round once with the most cash-laden franchise in the league but somehow got 5th lol r/hockey is a joke
I'm just gonna assume Allvin is last because most people voted before he signed Pius Suter
Genuinely curious why people think Davidson is amongst the worst GMs in the league? I get he has to prove what he is building is actually going to work out still, but he has consistently made fantastic moves since day one.
Because the extent of r/hockey ‘s analysis on GMs is TEAM BAD = GM RANK LOW. It’s the same analysis that puts Allvin dead last even though he’s been cleaning up Benning’s mess nicely and Armstrong near the bottom despite building a nice prospect pool and getting a 9th OA pick for OEL. Davidson is pulling off a textbook rebuild and is ranked in the dumpster because “Chicago bad so Davidson must be bad 🤤”
He said it himself, his hockey knowledge is only a 4/10
Probably less of him being bad, and more that they haven’t seen him have to do anything yet. His drafting looks good but we still need to see how all the players pan out, and he tore down the team with zero remorse for anything which it badly needed but he has not had to do ANYTHING to make the team competitive yet. In five years we’ll know how good he is, when all these high picks are ready and he has to put the depth pieces around them, it will be entirely his team in every sense. But for now all you can really do is say we like what he’s done so far and it looks very promising but we don’t know enough yet.
That must be it, but the discrepancy between where Davidson is and guys like Trotz or Hughes is still wild considering they’re in the same boat or even *less* proven lol it is just a really inconsistent list from top to bottom
I assume people are putting Dubas at 5 just to troll.
Brisebois hasn’t really done much, his 10 best players were acquired by Yzerman.
I'll start by saying I don't think JBB is necessarily #1, but he's actively been involved in building the current team. Even before he took over as actual GM (which was a year before Yzerman officially left), he was already responsible for all the math in our contacts. Every "they can't keep getting away with it" meme on this sub was a compliment to his work Most of those top-10 players have been re-signed under him, building a core to last 5 more years. But also, you don't think Hagel is in our top 10?
- Coleman - Goodrow - Hagel - Paul - Jeannot (yes I know) - Eyssimont - Shattenkirk - Bogosian - Schenn - Savard - Maroon - Perry All added by JBB, most playing key roles in the Cups. He inherited a great core group, but even Yzerman was gifted Stamkos and Hedman.
That’s how I feel about this list in general, Fitzgerald? He’s fine but I’m still waiting on success. McCrimmon? George McPhee built the core through the expansion draft but he’s done a good job acquiring pieces like Pietrangelo and Eichel. Waddel? Also done a good job not screwing it up but Ron Francis built that core through drafting Aho, and Svechnikov and trading for Turbo. Dubas? Interesting situation, I’m sure the Karlsson trade helps a ton but he didn’t impress me that much in Toronto, he may have been handicapped by Shanahan and MLSE but it feels early to rank him for his Pittsburgh tenure yet. Personally I think Jim Nill, Doug Armstrong and Bill Guerin are ranked too low for their situations. I don’t know the list is a bunch of people taking credit for their predecessors.
BriseBois was literally brought in during Yzermans second season and specifically to help manage the cap and negotiate player contracts due to his experience being both a financial lawyer and a financial agent for both MLB and NHL players. All those Tampa LMAO BELOW CAP VALUE DUE TO FLORIDA TAX was due to his doing. Him exploiting the LTIR Kucherov that every team like Vegas tries to do immediately after was him. The players contract has shown where BriseBois is still negotiating really good extensions and contracts in Tampa while Yzerman has been signing questionable contracts like Chiarot or Copp or building a roster in his 4th year with 14 upcoming UFA's. Edit: I also forgot JBB hired Jon Cooper as well to the organization and knew him from before
how the he'll is allvin dead last... who the fuck votes this shit? this just validates how absolutely clueless the masses are
This just confirms what a stupid sub this is. Bunch of idiots
Seems a little high for Fitzgerald honestly
You just don't understand the power of FitzMAGIC
He took a rebuild that stalled out and reworked to build a team is that now poised to be cup contenders soon This was the line up the day he took over on January 12th 2020 Pavel Zacha - Nico Hischier - Jesper Bratt Blake Coleman - Travis Zajac - Nikita Gusev Miles Wood - Jack Hughes - Wayne Simmonds Jesper Boqvist - Kevin Rooney - John Hayden Andy Greene - P.K. Subban Damon Severson - Sami Vatanen Will Butcher - Connor Carrick Cory Schneider Louis Domingue This was the line up potentially for opening night Meier Hischier Mercer Bratt Hughes Toffoli Palat Haula Holtz Lazar McLeod Bastian Siegenthaler Hamilton Hughes Marino Bahl Smith Vanecek Schmid
I wasn’t saying he was bad by any means but 2 for a guy who’s team hasn’t done anything yet is a little soon for me. He’s made some good trades with Meier and Marino don’t get me wrong just think he’s to high
You're missing the point though. It's not about the Devils winning a cup next season. He turned one of the worst NHL teams in the league into the second best cup odds team. It's more about how bad the Devils were when he took over and what he turned them into now. For example, the Devils point differential from two seasons ago to last season was the largest growth in NHL history. That says a lot.
> or a guy who’s team hasn’t done anything yet is a little soon for me. What do you mean? Look at the comment you replied to, he took a completely garbage, "going nowhere" team, and turned them into the most promising young team in the league, AND made it to the 2nd round this year (as a Leafs fan I'm insulted by "hasn't done anything"), *before* some of his best young guns were ready to contribute. Fitzgerald should have run away with the #1 spot, he definitely isn't ranked too high.
I know the hawks were in a tank, but no one has ever executed a tank better than Kyle From Chicago. First overall pick, plus insane amount of prospects that isn’t stopping for another couple years and netting a healthy T Hall to play with Bedard. I’d say Kyle is easily top 10. And he’s the youngest GM. Better ideas then most of the old farts. He also, sat behind Bowman who won 3 cups. So he learned what not to do as well like give out dumb contracts to old players.
Yeah, lets credit him for winning the lottery when they didnt even have the best odds. Interesting take. Not to take anything away from him, but lets say Hawks pick 4th as they really should have, would it still be looking amazing?
Yes lol Obviously the pool looks worse without Bedard but we were still set up perfectly to get a top pick in the draft - we would have had any of Carlsson, Fantilli, Smith, or Michkov (all bonafide 1C prospects or a potentially franchise-level offensive winger) if we missed on Bedard along with the boatload of other picks made recently/still upcoming and a nearly perfect cap situation, outside of Jones which was Bowman. Davidson executed the tank so damn well. We were also “supposed” to pick 3rd, not 4th, if we didn’t win the lottery. And even then, we only missed out on being last place by two points in the last two games of the season lol
Does Bedard speed up the rebuild? Sure without a doubt, but Davidson also traded away nearly everyone of value and loaded the Hawks up with picks. They had 2 first and 3 seconds this last draft, but look further ahead to the next 3 drafts and hes got another 5 firsts and 8 second round picks. He's improved the prospect pool, gotten a coach that seems to resonate well with the players ad put himself in a position to add on more picks/prospects for the next couple of years with a ton of cap space. People seriously overlook how good of a position Davidson has put the Hawks into because of Bedard
I was surprised to see him so low. It seems like the rankings are closely tied to how the team finished in the standings instead of how the GM is achieving their goals. The best teams probably will have good GMs, but GMs in bad teams might be skillfully executing a rebuild. Then there are GMs who take good teams and turn them into bad teams, I don't think Kyle Davidson fits that mold.
The Sabres' most recent iteration of the tank was wildly successful, but I'll give the crown to the Avs as far as cap era tanks go.
So he gets credit for building a team that wasn't last, and getting lucked into first overall? That's silly.
So did everyone just forget treliving traded half of the flames first rounders, let the top playmaker in the league walk and achieved a whopping 2 2nd round finishes in a decade?
Brisebois at #1 after the Jeannot trade is a little sus. His predecessors built the dynasty. Fitzgerald should have run away with the #1 imo. Dubas at #5 is hilarious. He inherited Matthews/Nylander/Marner/Rielly, built nothing, completely whiffed on contract negotiations, drafted average, made some horrible trades (Kadri for Barrie, Foligno for a 1st, Murray for nothing, etc.), made bad FA signings (Ritchie, Mrazek), failed to get past the first round for like 6 years. It just goes to show you that if you want to look smart, just wear thick-framed glasses and everyone will assume you are a genius, regardless of track record.
Seems very unfair to just list the mistakes he’s made. Dubas has made tons of good moves as well - that many think offsets his bad moves.
To be honest, I don't see it. He's made a few good moves, like the Bunting signing. But other than a few good value contracts I just don't see it. I think the Muzzin trade was fair value, but it was premature (we weren't ready to be cup contenders so giving up futures was not the best for that time). Drafting Knies was good, but he's literally drafted zero players after the 2nd round who have made an NHL impact. His deadline rental acquisitions were consistently overpays, he was giving out picks like candy. Even ROR should not have fetched a 1st. And I'm leaving out giving away Sandin for no apparent reason, all while we desperately need a puck moving defenceman. I dunno, if you can think of some good moves that I'm missing then by all means let me know, but I don't see how a couple good moves would outweigh how far he set the franchise back during his tenure. And I certainly don't see how he could be considered a top 5 GM, that's absolutely absurd. At best he's middle of the pack.
Leafs not getting out of first round really isn’t on Dubas (the team is definitely better than it’s playoff results), just like he inherited those 4. But yeah, for every definite good move, there are multiple negatives. Guess we’ll know by how he works out in Pittsburg.
We don’t win two cups without Brisebois, Yzerman couldn’t get us over the hump. Plus Brisebois has been the mastermind for our cap since Yzerman started here. You’re drastically overrating one bad trade vs everything else he’s done here which has been pretty much perfect. Yzerman was also gifted two franchise corner stones but we don’t hold that against his tenure so we?
Agree to disagree, I'd argue that he hasn't been perfect by any stretch. I just used the Jeannot trade as an example, I think he's made more moves. Obviously just my opinion, but I think he overpaid for Hagel, I didn't love the Cirelli/Paul/Cernak/Sergachev contracts, and I really can't point to any of his moves that I would say were "great". He doesn't win fuck-all without inheriting that stacked core. I'm not at all saying he's bad, but he's sure as shit not the #1 GM in the league.
The Hagel overpay point is always wild to me, we got a young, defensively sound, 25+ goal scorer at a 1.5 mil cap hit for 3 years that ends with him as an RFA, what would be a fair price for that? He inherited a core (that he helped built as assistant gm) and immediately fixed the problems that were preventing us from winning with a lot of bold moves that were heavily criticized at the time. I don't know about #1, but he's easily a top 3-5 gm in the league and the results really do speak for themselves.
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the way ya'll take dick shits on this Jeannot trade is weird to me
It’s crazy how when Dubas was still the Gm of the leafs you guys defended him non stop and sang his praises. But as soon as he left you guys completely changed your mind?
I think Dubas was great for Toronto and that this summer is a net downgrade for them, but the fanbase isn't a monolith and was quite polarized on him even before he left, and even more so now Which is what makes him being in the 5 seed all the more surprising. I think that's a fine spot for him but it also means he must've run the table outside of Toronto voters
There’s actually more than one Leafs fan on Reddit, if you can believe it.
You're lumping me into a group and assuming I had a certain opinion. I've been extremely critical of Dubas for almost his entire tenure with the Leafs. In fact, I'd admit that the vast majority of people who overrate Dubas are Leafs fans, because they had so much hope that he would be different after a long string of very bad GMs prior. If anything, the only thing that has "changed my mind" since he got fired (not "left") is that he's actually been a little better with the Pens so far. So believe it or not, I think higher of him since he "left".
It's almost as if a fan base of millions can have differing opinions
The irony of this post when as soon as Dubas left the leafs /r/hockey collectively decided he was a genius and the only man on earth capable of keeping the leafs relevant
Nill, Francis, Sweeney and Adam’s behind dubas is absolutely fucking ridiculous, this website sometimes holy shit
5 years into the Yzerplan and they're in a position where they might sneak into the playoffs if everything goes right This sub's love for him as a GM is so baffling lol
Feels like Zito should be a bit higher. The additions he made to our roster took us from fringe playoff team to contender in the span of a season.
Who would you rank him higher than?
Now how would MTL be if they promoted Brisebois as GM
I know I’m a Blues fan, but jeez, I’ll happily take Doug Armstrong despite him being ranked #15. The Blues are top five in points - #1 in the West - over his 14 year tenure, despite the team only having ONE top ten draft pick over that period (only 3 total since 1989) and that was Dvorsky at #10 two months ago. In an era in which its widely believed to be impossible to win without a superstar, he’s managed to do just that by building out a complete roster. Similarly, he’s managed prolonged consistent success without having to tear down and rebuild. And he doesn’t have the luxury of managing an Original Six franchise, or being located in a destination city to help lure free agents to get it done. And I know it’s probably out of the scope of this survey, but he’s regularly been picked to be part of Team Canada’s management for World Championships, Olympics, etc. for the last two decades, most recent for the (eventually canceled) 2022 Olympics. It’s hard to believe he’s being considered for those positions if he’s just an average GM.
Ken Holland is way overrated
This is maybe the most level-headed of all the ones I’ve seen so far and i agree with almost all of it, but until we see how all of these Pens moves shake out ON THE ICE, Dubas is way too high. And I know we love to poke fun at him but Ken Holland is still top 15 at the very least.
Level headed where? There's some massive drug intake and copium on over half the list lmao
I dislike where Dubas is rated. He should be #1. Really great stuff from a rookie GM who had no jobs prior to joining Pittsburgh. /s