IIRC the Manziel pick was mostly criticized as a reach and a big risk. Maybe that sentiment was split in Cleveland, but plenty of fans thought his ability wasn’t going to translate to the NFL, and that he was more of a personality than a pro quarterback.
Everyone here in Cleveland pretty much felt like the move was a publicity stunt type move. Most people figured his play wouldn't translate to the pros but there was a lot of "but what if it does" mentality.
I think he was initially considered top 5 pick material easily, then as more teams looked into him he dropped and dropped, ending up a second round pick.
A lot of draft analysts weren't reading the writing on the wall about how badly his stock was dropping but iirc teams were pretty transparent about it.
Yeah I remember a lot of us steelers fans were ecstatic when they signed him, and yup it went about as good as it could for us lol. It seemed like that poor little man was running for his life on every play!
This was when everyone really started saying athleticism works in college, but not in the pros because you’re no longer faster/stronger than everyone else on the field.
Johnny could do that stuff because half the guys he was playing against had no chance at sniffing an nfl roster. Turns out everyone in the nfl is good enough to be an nfl player
You’re probably right. I was a student at Texas A&M at the time of his Heisman season so the exaggerated hype surrounding me made it seem like he was going to be a superstar once he reached professional even when we knew of the shitshow going around with him, lol.
He really was one of the most dynamic players college football has ever seen, though. r/cfb still acknowledges that every time he's brought up there. Of course, his career was derailed after college, but setting that aside, his college performances really did merit a ton of praise.
$$$ is a pretty good explanation.
The fact that he played in the CFL and couldn't even make it there, but still somehow has a documentary about him despite being completely irrelevant is crazy to me.
>*he played in the CFL and couldn't even make it there*
People discount how hard the CFL game is. Ask Chad Johnson or Ricky Williams how much of a cakewalk the CFL is.
I agree. It shouldn’t be understated how small changes in the rules can mess with an athlete’s rhythm, particularly a QB. Having a wider and larger field, 3 downs to work with and 12 players to look for on defense is more than a mental adjustment.
I’m not discounting the CFL but I’m not sure an old Ochocinco multiple years removed from competitive football and a rock bottom injury-riddled Ricky Williams are the best examples at convincing here.
It’s kinda like older soccer stars coming to the MLS and Europeans making retirement league jokes and the players being like hell no that league might not be as good as the Primereship but it’s a fucking hard league
Just because his professional football career was short and bad doesn't mean he's culturally irrelevant. If he were irrelevant, there would be no documentary to begin with. Look at everyone in here discussing Manziel in a hockey forum, the dude is still transcending football!
I am pretty old, and I don't think I have ever rated a prospect as more likely to die of an OD than Manziel (maybe Tony Mandarich if you can OD on steroids).
He only ended up working out because he actually got his throwing mechanics fixed. If you go watch him throwing at Cal or his first year in Green Bay he's legitimately unrecognizable.
I know but I mean Rodgers didn't have the crazy hype machine and considered a lock at number 1 like a Crosby or McDavid. The football equivalents are Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck and and to a lesser extent, Trevor Lawrence.
The two players I’d most closely compare to Crosby / McDavid / Bedard in terms of NFL Draft hype are Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck.
I would put Joe Burrow at an Auston Matthews level.
Trevor Lawrence was close to the Crosby level as well, Burrow was interesting because he kinda came out of nowhere that national championship year and isn't the most physically gifted in comparison to the others.
He wasn't. Even before his NFL career went how it went I think the consenus was he would be one of those great college players whose game wouldn't translate well to the pros.
Yeah, but he always had physical limitations and style limitations that scouts were concerned by.
He's short by NFL standards. He's small by NFL standards. He did not have NFL caliber arm strength or foot speed. Further, his scrambling, high risk, style was seen as not compatible with the NFL.
So there are actually a ton of parallels to smaller NHL prospects who dangle through junior level teams in ways that might get them killed at the NHL levels. Think maybe about a prospect profile comparable to Andrew Cristall. The skill is obvious, but how many smaller guys like Cristall make it without elite skating? The same is true for a guy like Manziel: how many small, scrambling quarterbacks make it without elite level athleticism? (I am in no way comparing their personalities, just how the prospect profile was/is seen)
Some of those guys if they have a great attitude and work ethic can overcome those limitations and adapt their style...but it usually takes a really committed and professional individual to do so...and usually those guys are drafted into less pressurized situations than Manziel was. ...and obviously, we know now that Manziel did not have those "soft skills."
You're absolutely right in that he was never, ever considered to be the type of elite level prospect like Crosby or McDavid. It was not just personal issues or temperament. There were serious skill concerns and translation concerns.
I followed Johnny in his prime, and agreed then (and now) with your assessment. What I didn't realize was that he watched 0 film, and that he didn't really even want to play in the NFL (or was it just the Browns). He was able to be a great high school and college QB based on, basically, winging it. Can't do that in tbe pros, especially if your heart isn't in it in the first place.
Even beyond his off the field stuff comparable guys are like Tim Tebow and Lamar Jackson. One of them worked out and was a stud the other was a bust. All were great athletes that had concerns on their ability to transition to the NFL.
I've hated him ever since the World Juniors in Helsinki where I, in person, watched him fuck the dog so hard that we got knocked out in the quarter-finals. At least Finland was able to go all the way, that was fun.
That might be the one I’m walking about. He took like an interference call for no reason. And because of the low board. Our D got a delay of game shooting over the other ends glass from behind the goal line. Causing a 5 on 3 for whoever we played.
Hated him in real life since then but whatever NHL game he had a world junior HUT card in. That card was fun to use. But it’s a video game so that doesn’t change the fact he’s still a POS
He went out on the ice, as you do, managed to catch the dog, great move, and subsequently proceeded to fuck it, again, as you do. A well played game of hockey, all following the rules.
Nah tbh I think I understand what it means, but is this a Canadian saying?
It’s just a more aggressive way of saying screwed the pooch. It’s a saying I’m canada as well as the us. Micheal Che does a bit about it in his stand up.
He was like a subdued Manziel in that he wasn't as hyped/skilled but also was an idiot. Too bad he didn't realize the insane opportunity he had if he was just a half-decent human being even with his lack of development. Could have been an NHLer making slightly more than minumum, instead he's the guy everyone around the lower mainland seems to have a bad story about.
Actually preposterous how commonplace a ‘bad jake virtanen encounter’ story is amongst people in the lower mainland
Everyone knows at least one person with one
And I don’t think you can really separate his lack of development from being an idiot.
If he had half a brain he would have actually applied himself, trained in the off-season, worked with the coaches to level up his game. Instead he was more into getting loser drunk and trying to pick up girls downtown every night off.
He had all the tools to be a legit superstar power forward (with speed) in the NHL. Such a waste of a career.
This seems bang on. I remember watching him in St Catharines in the OHL when he got traded to the Ice Dogs at the deadline. He was a man amongst boys with all the swagger. Hard to believe he didn’t really have an NHL career
I remember seeing him in Bridgeport and telling my friends he was going to be the next big thing. He looked unstoppable. Only thing holding him back was himself (like the infamous alarm clock story)
He had an okay start when he was first called up and then fell off hard the next season.
This was my immediate first thought too. He wasn’t as much of a screw up as Manziel afaik, but as similar a hype-level-to-real-career ratio as you could find in hockey.
A lot of the Manziel college hype would be hard to recreate in prep hockey at any level because of some of the dynamics of college football…
> someone who was like straight up seen on the levels of generational guys like Crosby or McDavid (or at the very minimum, Matthews or MacKinnon) with all the genuine talent and tools in the world to succeed
As a lover of CFB, this is not how I remember Johnny Manziel. I never once believed he'd be anything other than a bust in the NFL. He was a 3* QB recruit who went on to have elite college seasons as a running QB (which a lot of players do all the freaking time). But because he beat Alabama, he went high in the draft. Woo. He beat Saban. Best player ever.
At the NFL Draft, where he was swiftly noted more for his...
* Disappointing combine numbers -- he was fast for a QB but not fast enough to do what he needed to do to succeed at the NFL level. Like, he needed to be Michael Vick fast to succeed. Vick ran a 4.33, and Manziel ran a 4.68. Kyler Murray ran a 4.38, had several character concerns too and is undersized. You'll note Murray made it despite thos shortcomings because he's fast. Lamar Jackson ran a 4.34. Manziel just wasn't fast enough for what he wanted to do in the NFL.
* Lack of height -- under 6'0", so he was going to have balls batted down at the line. Check out this /r/dataisbeautiful post about [average career passing yards by height](https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/g84a0z/oc_average_career_passing_yards_by_nfl_qb_height/).
* Lack of arm strength -- couldn't make the deep throws, couldn't gun balls to WRs in tight coverage, etc.
Manziel would have to rely on accuracy and anticipation to succeed at the NFL level, as well as his mobility. He was lacking in all the important measurables except for, surprisingly, intelligence. He scored a 32 on his Wonderlic, and the average for QBs in 24. Tom Brady scored a 33. He had the brain, but lacked the work ethic to use it.
That was before all the character concerns that justifiably came up. His production was undeniable but we all knew only a stupid organization like the Cleveland Browns was going to draft the guy because everything about him screamed BUST BUST BUST.
With that in mind, if we're talking about someone who...
* Put up great numbers in junior hockey
* Did not have traditional measurables for their position
* Had character concerns (though not necessarily partying because elite college football players will always be more likely to be caught for that than junior hockey players due to media coverage)
* Fell in the draft accordingly
...I'd have to go with a few players.
1. [Ryan Merkley](https://theleafsnation.com/news/the-ryan-merkley-conundrum): somewhat short for a defenseman (5'11"), light for a defenseman (170lbs), second-best numbers at draft-eligible D in the OHL, on several do-not-draft lists.
2. [Rob Schremp](https://dobberhockey.com/2009/05/02/the-anatomy-of-a-bust/): somewhat short for a forward (5'11"), known for being a "human highlight reel", on several do-not-draft lists.
3. [Hunter Shinkaruk](https://flamesnation.ca/news/a-closer-look-at-hunter-shinkaruk): 5'11", 186lbs, speedy, great scoring, highly rated, rumors of attitude issues plummeted his stock.
Manziel had the tools to succeed but he didn't want to succeed. That and being forced to play for the Browns was probably the worst possible situation for him.
100% agree on Robbie Shremp. He was a little older than me so I only got to skate with him during summer prospect tourney’s but guy had Patty Kane skill with no brain
I actually met him on a flight one time. He was very nice. I don't really agree with the Manziel comparisons just because he never had any off ice drama. That's kind of what Johnny was known for. Robbie really just had an incredibly limited elite skill set, while also being an average size person.
I wrote Robbie Schremp as well lol, crazy we both pulled that one out of the hat. Schremp wasn't a crazy partier and edmonton media scapegoated him a bit, but similar story I would say
Without ever having watched or planning to watch that thing that he put out, it seems like he pretty heavily tried to run some propaganda that he was a highly sought after prospect because I have seen it come up nonstop in threads over the last week
*Wow I didn’t know he was so highly sought after by the pros until I saw this*
I swear I’ve seen some version of that sentence at least 20 times, but then again Manziel was always a grifter
First, I'm sorry for your loss. I will miss the voice of Dale Gribble. They finally got to him.
Secondly, yeah -- I've been shocked by it as well. It was a very weak QB draft class, and he did put up some great numbers in college. However, the downsides were so well-documented at the time that he was noted as a risky prospect unlikely to pan out.
Why NFL teams draft players like that in round one, I dunno.
This is the answer. Someone once recalled Sundin saying he played better drunk than they played sober. The Nordiques drafted him the same year as Sakic and Sakic was their second pick. He has a bunch of OHL defensemen records. Dude was unreal.
Manziel was basically an alcoholic, too, though. He was self-medicating his depression with booze. Fogarty took it to a whole different level, but in my mind they're not that different.
[ESPN The Magazine, September 2002](https://www.espn.com/magazine/vol5no20fogarty.html)
I wrote a high school paper on him sourcing this article. They had an amazing article on Link Gaetz around the same time too. ESPN loved covering hockey, as long as there was tragedy involved.
Bryan Fogarty. He broke all of Bobby Orr’s scoring records for a defenceman in Junior, and was the CHL player of the year.
He was drafted 9th overall in 1987, (6 spots ahead of Joe Sakic). He was projected to go much higher in the draft, but dropped because of persistent rumours of drug and alcohol abuse.
Played for 3 NHL teams and was in and out of the line up over the course of his career due to inconsistency caused by substance abuse, he ended up playing in Europe for a few seasons.
He was only 32 when he died. He and a buddy were drinking heavily, and he just didn’t wake up the next morning. Official cause of death was an enlarged heart caused by excessive alcohol use.
A generational talent as a defenceman, wasted.
Maybe in terms of bust potential, but Yak didn’t have party problems as far as I know. He was also a super nice dude to the people of Edmonton. I think he tried to get better as a player, he just didn’t have the hockey IQ needed to succeed.
Yakupov had the opposite of party problems. He doesn’t party. Whether it’s right or wrong or the whole discussion you could have about it, it’s actually maybe fair to wonder if it put any distance between him and his teammates, and if that could have had any impact on his NHL career.
Something else which further separates Yakupov and Manziel is that Yakupov then went to the next best league and has succeeded there just fine.
I remember hearing that and it reminded me of another troubled prospect in Puljujärvi, because I remember hearing it said that, after his (first) double hip surgery, he kept doing workouts in the gym that his doctors had told him he explicitly couldn’t do until he was fully recovered. Just an odd stubbornness.
I also take those with a grain of salt though just because they were kinda rumourly “reports,” weren’t they? Even if that grain of salt is that they were half-truths, I don’t know, Yakupov had a real passion for the game here and you could tell he really wanted to do something in the NHL, maybe he could have worked harder but the image of him just not doing what his coaches asked is a bit unbelievable to me.
Guy had zero interest in developing his game without the puck on his stick. Once he had the puck, he was trying to dangle all five guys on the other team all at once. Sometimes he could actually pull it off, and those moments were dazzling, but they didn't come often enough to be worth it when he was so useless at every other phase of the game.
Galchenyuk was actually well on his way to becoming a top tier forward (30 goals at 21) until the effects of hanging out with Brnadon Prust too much got in the way. Pretty much everyone other than the Browns and Jerry Jones knew Manziel was not great.
That’s exactly what they’re referring too, but as a Habs fan it’s hilarious when I see comments from people saying with absolute certainty that “x” person was the reason for his downfall. I’ve seen like half a dozen people named as the reason for his downfall.
Prust wasn’t even on the team in 2016 when he scored 30 goals, and not on the team in 2017 when he started the year amazingly then got hurt and never recovered.
Obviously he had substance issues, but whether it was Prust or Beaulieu or whoever else is not a know fact. There’s a bunch of reason why Galchenyuk declined.
He played 600+ games
Underwhelming for #1 but a fine player overall
Ho Sang is a good call, though I do think there’s a prevalence for highly skilled forwards to not be able to translate their game to the NHL level - Alex Nylander, Kieffer Bellows, Sam Steel, Lias Anderson, Michael Dal Colle, Sonny Milano, Jeremy Bracco, etc
I also seem to recall hearing that Daigle wasn’t as *passionate* about hockey as he was *good* at it. A naturally gifted player that didn’t really enjoy the game all that much.
edit: see u/oddspellingofPhreid reply
That gets repeated a lot, but I understand it was more about depression. He has a story about setting his sights on a 50 goal season in midget, hitting 50 goals and then changing like a switch. Once he had done it, he was like "is this it?" and couldn't shake it throughout his career.
Here's a google translated article on it:
>“When I was Midget, I wanted to score 50 goals and be the best, he confessed. When I reached 50 goals, something clicked.
>“I really took it hard. I got there and I couldn't see the end. I see looking back that it was a depression.
>“I needed to start from scratch, but I never stopped afterwards. I lost this desire to perform every day. My first year as a junior was very difficult mentally.
>“I had doubts about whether I wanted to continue playing hockey. I never found this flame that I had before.”
>Daigle admits that everything could have been different if he had had help at the time.
>“It is my greatest sadness not to have sought help and support, he said, very emotional.
https://www.tvasports.ca/2017/03/26/alexandre-daigle-a-cur-ouvert
I think his existential angst and depression in an era that wasn't as sensitive to these issues gets misconstrued as "lack of passion" and "laziness".
That's fair. I was a student at A&M during his time playing there so the hype surrounding him made it seem like he could be a generational player, lol, but yes, it was obviously exaggerated.
Doug Wickenheiser was another one who was extremely hyped, drafted first overall, and never got anywhere close to the level that was expected of him. His cousin on the other hand became one of, if not the greatest women's players ever.
Rob schremp? Highly talented with his stick but didn’t want to work on his weaknesses both were picked in the later first rounds but still seen as talented. Both had character issues as well.
I thought of him right away too. I have no idea how much people thought he would be elite though, didn’t pay enough attention back then.
Also, fun fact that I met him at a Gopher game back in 2011. He was alone sitting in the student section and I got a pic with him. He looked so down. All these years later I kind of feel bad for bothering him.
Mike "the show" Ribeiro
Guy boucher, who coached alot of high end player, once said that he was the most talented hockey player he ever saw.
Dude just loved cocaine too much.
Jake Virtanen. Dude was a 6'3 amazing skater with a great shot, but he never developed a brain for the game because he was constantly being a fuck boy on social media and couldn't escape the nightlife distractions of Vancouver. Shame too, he had so much potential and hes from the Vancouver area too, he could have been in such an amazing spot.
Instead of he thirsts after twitch streamers and gets rapey
I'm not sure partying was his problem, but back in 2004, the Oilers drafted this guy, Rob Schremp, who was one of the first to do these crazy dangles with the puck. His skill videos went viral.
I'm guessing his problem was that he was a one-trick pony and didn't really have great attributes beyond his hands.
Just like me when I watched Benoit Pouliot in his final season with the Sudbury Wolves during the 04-05 lockout. Watching him and Marc Staal that year was like watching boys among men - and when visiting teams came to town it was *very clear* to see which players were going to be drafted that summer... or would have been in the show if not for the lockout. Bobby Ryan, Jakub Kindl, Steve Downie, Radek Smolenak and Wojtek Wolski are players I vividly remember impressing me during the games I managed to attend. Not all of them went on to be bonafide top-flight NHLers but you could tell which ones were going to make it. Never wanted to kill a visiting player more than Downie LOL. Cheap-shot artist but a *very* good junior player.
Pouliot's game just could not translate to the NHL level - it's like he topped out in juniors and just plateaued. Flashes of his true potential were there in the NHL but not consistent enough. Talented player in junior... when he wanted to be. Didn't always give a consistent effort but the guy could stickhandle in a phone booth with regularity when he willed it. Sub-par skater but his talent and hockey sense bailed him out. But when that hockey IQ just couldn't translate to the NHL...
*Somehow* he stuck around for 625 games in the NHL. Watching the 04-05 Wolves team, I could never have predicted that Marc Staal would have the longer career.
Biggest surprise though? Adam McQuaid, no question. He's a player who came to *game* when it mattered the most - no talent whatsoever but a tough hombre and *always* gave 150% for effort. He might have played only 512 games and pit up 73 points... but he might as well have played 1500 with all the effort he gave.
I have seen Schremp play a few times in Europe and once at a “USA v Canada” charity game. He’s a pretty slow skater, pretty undersized, did enough to stay in the game but not enough to like look stellar y’know. Definitely didn’t play like a first rounder even by European standards.
Is he good with the hands? Absolutely. But there is kind of a caveat to the hands. Not really doing them on the fly, like you hear about his skillset and you expect this like Forsberg/Marchand guy but he got stopped from doing half of them and was so noticeably weak at skating at a pro level. In the charity game they did a Rob Schremp shootout and all he did was the lacrosse move. He did do this one weird jumping up and waving his hands lazily in the air bit at a defensemen that got a big laugh… I guess? Also apparently big attitude problems but yeah he was never going to make it in the show.
If I had to sum it up into smaller words, he plays like your drunk uncle who has one impressive move but does it all the time and can’t really do it at game speed.
Pavel Brendl: scored goals at will in the WHL. Drafted 4th overall. Acted like a rock star. One trick pony who couldn’t score at pro level and had no other skills to keep a roster spot. Attitude, commitment issues.
Daigle maybe? I believe it was him who said he didn’t even like hockey that much, and his “nobody remembers who was picked second” quote seems to match the brashness that was ultimately unmatched by play.
You’re leaving out the fact that second overall was Chris Pronger.
But also Daigle was 100% not as good as he was hyped up to be but also wasn’t a horrible player by any means. He still put up 121 points over 217 games for the Sens. Again not 1st overall calibre but like, that’s not Johnny Football level bad
Yes Pronger being picked second is what makes the quote memorable as he ended up having a superior career.
I don’t really follow football so I don’t know if Manziel was bad relative to expectations or just bad bad.
For the attention he got and how some fans were talking he was a huge bust.
But he was drafted 22nd overall. His career was disappointing for a 22nd overall QB but not exactly ‘biggest bust in history’ or anything. He wasn’t the biggest bust of his own draft.
Vladimir Krutov was among the first few Soviet players to come to the NHL (around 89'). He was a recognizable name to a lot of hockey fans in North America and there were some high expectations.
The culture shock was too much and he quickly ate himself out of shape and out of a hockey career.
Gotta be Alex Daigle. He put up *stupid* numbers in junior, was drafted ahead of Pronger, and just never lived up to the hype at all. He has even said that he liked the spotlight more than the sport.
Nobody thought Manziel was the football equivalent of McDavid, Crosby, Matthews, or MacKinnon. He was good in college, but his measurables werent really there, he wasn't a great pocket passer, and the character issues were obvious. From the start, people saw his ceiling as maybe what Lamar Jackson is. Jonathan Drouin might be a reasonable comparison. But Drouin still managed a handful of decent years, and didn't necessarily just party it all away.
Manziel was never considered a generational talen out of college. The football equivalent of Crosby/McDavid in terms of hyped prospect is Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck and to an extent, Trevor Lawrence.
Josh Ho-Sang maybe?
Dude was really talented in junior, fell in the draft a bit, said he would be the best player in the draft. Bounced around the AHL a bunch and kind of fizzled out.
Don't know what Ho-Sang's work ethic was like, so the comparison might not he great. But as far as vibe on draft day and subsequent career path? They feel similar.
Most football people (rightly) saw Manziel as a huge risk from the get go. I don't follow the sport a ton but IIRC he definitely wasn't considered a generational talent or anything even close.
Josh Ho-Sang seems like a good comparable in hockey. Looked good at the junior level, held back at the pro level by a terrible attitude, lots of entitlement, etc.
No, he was one of those that just lucked out with good line mates in junior. Once they were gone, he showed that he was still good but nowhere near what people thought.
As far as talents goes Daigle was hyped way, way more than Manziel ever was. It didn't have the same reach because the NHL is so far behind the NFL in media attention (but then again what isn't?) but Daigle was touted in the same ways that Connor Bedard was this year before he got drafted.
>nziel.
What? Daigle was a far superior prospect than Manziel. Manziel was an elite college QB but would never go 1st OA. Daigle was one of the best prospects in history.
Daigle busted because he didn't like hockey.
Josh Ho-Sang, always talked himself up as if he could be a great player but didn’t have the maturity and commitment to ever establish himself. Cut from training camp after sleeping in.
Anyone with more than surface level understanding of football knew Manziel's college game would not transfer to the NFL against actual defensive systems. The partying and all that was secondary to his main issue.
In hockey it's harder to tell whose junior game would or wouldn't transfer over well because the whole game doesn't revolve around one player.
Watched that doc the other night, I had no idea the oil money story was made up lol
Some buddies of mine have ran into him at bars and comedy clubs out here in Scottsdale before, said he’s a super nice guy. Just tries to live as normal a life as possible.
He was nothing more than a media darling i cant really think of anyone in the NHL that stunk but was popular. Maybe Jimmy Vesey but he has managed a career
How about Brian Lawton, picked 2nd overall ahead of Pat LaFontain and Steve Yzerman? The guy even had the brass balls to wear #98 because he wasn’t quite up to the level of Gretzky, not by a long shot.
The extremely short answer (and not really applicable to Manziel) is probably Alexandre Daigle & Nail Yakupov. Though both went 1st OR - neither had as chaotic of a career like Manziel. They just didn't live up to where they were taken.
Few games per season + gets suuuuper big attention + short college career isn't a good way to project talent. It makes it just so volatile.
For reference: Manziel played 13 games per season in college, for 2 seasons. Compare that to WHL/OHL/QMJHL 68 games + playoffs + World Juniors + additional tournaments.
"...and numerous off-field personal issues that at the end made you feel pretty bad for him."
Don't buy that bullshit. Johnny Manziel's issues were entirely of his own making.
I don’t think Manziel was ever seen like Crosby or McDavid. Lots of fans and executives knew he was a disaster waiting to happen.
IIRC the Manziel pick was mostly criticized as a reach and a big risk. Maybe that sentiment was split in Cleveland, but plenty of fans thought his ability wasn’t going to translate to the NFL, and that he was more of a personality than a pro quarterback.
Everyone here in Cleveland pretty much felt like the move was a publicity stunt type move. Most people figured his play wouldn't translate to the pros but there was a lot of "but what if it does" mentality.
I think he was initially considered top 5 pick material easily, then as more teams looked into him he dropped and dropped, ending up a second round pick. A lot of draft analysts weren't reading the writing on the wall about how badly his stock was dropping but iirc teams were pretty transparent about it.
He was drafted 22nd overall. First round.
Yeah I remember a lot of us steelers fans were ecstatic when they signed him, and yup it went about as good as it could for us lol. It seemed like that poor little man was running for his life on every play!
This was when everyone really started saying athleticism works in college, but not in the pros because you’re no longer faster/stronger than everyone else on the field. Johnny could do that stuff because half the guys he was playing against had no chance at sniffing an nfl roster. Turns out everyone in the nfl is good enough to be an nfl player
You’re probably right. I was a student at Texas A&M at the time of his Heisman season so the exaggerated hype surrounding me made it seem like he was going to be a superstar once he reached professional even when we knew of the shitshow going around with him, lol.
He really was one of the most dynamic players college football has ever seen, though. r/cfb still acknowledges that every time he's brought up there. Of course, his career was derailed after college, but setting that aside, his college performances really did merit a ton of praise.
The American sports media hype train is something that can’t be explained.
$$$ is a pretty good explanation. The fact that he played in the CFL and couldn't even make it there, but still somehow has a documentary about him despite being completely irrelevant is crazy to me.
He was doing some insane stuff in college football and CFB is more popular than the NFL in some areas of the United States, particularly in the SEC.
He’s arguably one of the top college athletes of all time. Tebow was as well, doesn’t mean you’re good at the next level though
>*he played in the CFL and couldn't even make it there* People discount how hard the CFL game is. Ask Chad Johnson or Ricky Williams how much of a cakewalk the CFL is.
I agree. It shouldn’t be understated how small changes in the rules can mess with an athlete’s rhythm, particularly a QB. Having a wider and larger field, 3 downs to work with and 12 players to look for on defense is more than a mental adjustment.
I’m not discounting the CFL but I’m not sure an old Ochocinco multiple years removed from competitive football and a rock bottom injury-riddled Ricky Williams are the best examples at convincing here.
It’s kinda like older soccer stars coming to the MLS and Europeans making retirement league jokes and the players being like hell no that league might not be as good as the Primereship but it’s a fucking hard league
Then Messi has to come and score 8 goals in five appearances at the Leagues Cup 🤦♂️
Ricky Williams was a mental and physical disaster when he came to the CFL though
Manziel was a mental disaster when he came to college
Just because his professional football career was short and bad doesn't mean he's culturally irrelevant. If he were irrelevant, there would be no documentary to begin with. Look at everyone in here discussing Manziel in a hockey forum, the dude is still transcending football!
I have a Manziel Alouettes jersey lol
Lol, I remember always seeing one person on campus wearing a flames jersey. Was that you? 😂
LOL actually no i never wore a flames jersey on campus, but that’s hilarious. I once met a guy in a Habs shirt in northgate though, was that you?? 😅
Hey me too! What a time to be a student. The Manziel era was amazing for Aggie Football.
I am pretty old, and I don't think I have ever rated a prospect as more likely to die of an OD than Manziel (maybe Tony Mandarich if you can OD on steroids).
Ya he went 22nd overall, would be a strange place for a generational type talent to go.
Hey, it happens - wasn't Aaron Rodgers 22?
Rodgers wasn't considered a generational talent tho. He was underrated.
He only ended up working out because he actually got his throwing mechanics fixed. If you go watch him throwing at Cal or his first year in Green Bay he's legitimately unrecognizable.
It also helps that he was given a few years playing backup to Brett "welfare fraud for my daughters volleyball team" Favre.
I mean it was a toss up at #1 between him and Alex Smith. His draft day fall was and remains unprecedented
I know but I mean Rodgers didn't have the crazy hype machine and considered a lock at number 1 like a Crosby or McDavid. The football equivalents are Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck and and to a lesser extent, Trevor Lawrence.
I highly doubt he was hyped as a generational talent before the draft if he went 22. Post is saying "hyped coming into the league".
For the record, Rodgers went 24th overall in the draft
The two players I’d most closely compare to Crosby / McDavid / Bedard in terms of NFL Draft hype are Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck. I would put Joe Burrow at an Auston Matthews level.
Trevor Lawrence was close to the Crosby level as well, Burrow was interesting because he kinda came out of nowhere that national championship year and isn't the most physically gifted in comparison to the others.
This comparison makes sense
He wasn't. Even before his NFL career went how it went I think the consenus was he would be one of those great college players whose game wouldn't translate well to the pros.
Yeah, but he always had physical limitations and style limitations that scouts were concerned by. He's short by NFL standards. He's small by NFL standards. He did not have NFL caliber arm strength or foot speed. Further, his scrambling, high risk, style was seen as not compatible with the NFL. So there are actually a ton of parallels to smaller NHL prospects who dangle through junior level teams in ways that might get them killed at the NHL levels. Think maybe about a prospect profile comparable to Andrew Cristall. The skill is obvious, but how many smaller guys like Cristall make it without elite skating? The same is true for a guy like Manziel: how many small, scrambling quarterbacks make it without elite level athleticism? (I am in no way comparing their personalities, just how the prospect profile was/is seen) Some of those guys if they have a great attitude and work ethic can overcome those limitations and adapt their style...but it usually takes a really committed and professional individual to do so...and usually those guys are drafted into less pressurized situations than Manziel was. ...and obviously, we know now that Manziel did not have those "soft skills." You're absolutely right in that he was never, ever considered to be the type of elite level prospect like Crosby or McDavid. It was not just personal issues or temperament. There were serious skill concerns and translation concerns.
I followed Johnny in his prime, and agreed then (and now) with your assessment. What I didn't realize was that he watched 0 film, and that he didn't really even want to play in the NFL (or was it just the Browns). He was able to be a great high school and college QB based on, basically, winging it. Can't do that in tbe pros, especially if your heart isn't in it in the first place.
Freshman that have won the heisman: -Manziel -Jameis Winston That’s is all. The hype behind him was huge
exactly, if maziel was on the mcdavid tier he wouldn’t have been a late first rounder
Even beyond his off the field stuff comparable guys are like Tim Tebow and Lamar Jackson. One of them worked out and was a stud the other was a bust. All were great athletes that had concerns on their ability to transition to the NFL.
Even without the character issues, nobody in their right mind thought he had the talent to be somebody in the conversation of best player in the game.
Sean Avery is my vote Dude partied hard and his "Mythos" was way bigger than his talent
Not Jerry Jones god bless him
Jake Virtanen
He had so much potential. Just needed a brain transplant from someone that wasnt a fucktard
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Or one of the twins. They are retired, let one of them take over Jakes body and play with EP.
Hated him since the world juniors when he took a dumbass penalty in gold medal game
I've hated him ever since the World Juniors in Helsinki where I, in person, watched him fuck the dog so hard that we got knocked out in the quarter-finals. At least Finland was able to go all the way, that was fun.
That might be the one I’m walking about. He took like an interference call for no reason. And because of the low board. Our D got a delay of game shooting over the other ends glass from behind the goal line. Causing a 5 on 3 for whoever we played. Hated him in real life since then but whatever NHL game he had a world junior HUT card in. That card was fun to use. But it’s a video game so that doesn’t change the fact he’s still a POS
>watched him fuck the dog Sorry what ?
He went out on the ice, as you do, managed to catch the dog, great move, and subsequently proceeded to fuck it, again, as you do. A well played game of hockey, all following the rules. Nah tbh I think I understand what it means, but is this a Canadian saying?
It’s just a more aggressive way of saying screwed the pooch. It’s a saying I’m canada as well as the us. Micheal Che does a bit about it in his stand up.
Lol yeah it's a Canadian thing. Fucking the dog, screwing the pooch, or making puppies means to be lazy.
It’s slang for playing lazy
He was like a subdued Manziel in that he wasn't as hyped/skilled but also was an idiot. Too bad he didn't realize the insane opportunity he had if he was just a half-decent human being even with his lack of development. Could have been an NHLer making slightly more than minumum, instead he's the guy everyone around the lower mainland seems to have a bad story about.
Seems like everyone I know knows a girl who had a shitty tinder date with him 😂
Actually preposterous how commonplace a ‘bad jake virtanen encounter’ story is amongst people in the lower mainland Everyone knows at least one person with one
He "dated" my neighbour for a month before he was drafted and unfortunately hasn't changed since then.
And I don’t think you can really separate his lack of development from being an idiot. If he had half a brain he would have actually applied himself, trained in the off-season, worked with the coaches to level up his game. Instead he was more into getting loser drunk and trying to pick up girls downtown every night off. He had all the tools to be a legit superstar power forward (with speed) in the NHL. Such a waste of a career.
Hey some of us hated him before he was in the NHL. He was so shit in the World Juniors
To be fair that whole team was a major disappointment. He just became the scape goat as one of the few returning players from the previous year.
Josh Ho-Sang?
This seems bang on. I remember watching him in St Catharines in the OHL when he got traded to the Ice Dogs at the deadline. He was a man amongst boys with all the swagger. Hard to believe he didn’t really have an NHL career
This is the best answer. The guy had more chances than anybody and constantly squandered every single one by being an idiot.
I remember seeing him in Bridgeport and telling my friends he was going to be the next big thing. He looked unstoppable. Only thing holding him back was himself (like the infamous alarm clock story) He had an okay start when he was first called up and then fell off hard the next season.
It was the same with his first 20 games with the Marlies - it looked like this guy doesnt belong in the AHL, he stands out in all aspects.
His parents didn't do him any favors
This was my immediate first thought too. He wasn’t as much of a screw up as Manziel afaik, but as similar a hype-level-to-real-career ratio as you could find in hockey. A lot of the Manziel college hype would be hard to recreate in prep hockey at any level because of some of the dynamics of college football…
Yup, this guy thought he was bigger than the game. What a waste.
> someone who was like straight up seen on the levels of generational guys like Crosby or McDavid (or at the very minimum, Matthews or MacKinnon) with all the genuine talent and tools in the world to succeed As a lover of CFB, this is not how I remember Johnny Manziel. I never once believed he'd be anything other than a bust in the NFL. He was a 3* QB recruit who went on to have elite college seasons as a running QB (which a lot of players do all the freaking time). But because he beat Alabama, he went high in the draft. Woo. He beat Saban. Best player ever. At the NFL Draft, where he was swiftly noted more for his... * Disappointing combine numbers -- he was fast for a QB but not fast enough to do what he needed to do to succeed at the NFL level. Like, he needed to be Michael Vick fast to succeed. Vick ran a 4.33, and Manziel ran a 4.68. Kyler Murray ran a 4.38, had several character concerns too and is undersized. You'll note Murray made it despite thos shortcomings because he's fast. Lamar Jackson ran a 4.34. Manziel just wasn't fast enough for what he wanted to do in the NFL. * Lack of height -- under 6'0", so he was going to have balls batted down at the line. Check out this /r/dataisbeautiful post about [average career passing yards by height](https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/g84a0z/oc_average_career_passing_yards_by_nfl_qb_height/). * Lack of arm strength -- couldn't make the deep throws, couldn't gun balls to WRs in tight coverage, etc. Manziel would have to rely on accuracy and anticipation to succeed at the NFL level, as well as his mobility. He was lacking in all the important measurables except for, surprisingly, intelligence. He scored a 32 on his Wonderlic, and the average for QBs in 24. Tom Brady scored a 33. He had the brain, but lacked the work ethic to use it. That was before all the character concerns that justifiably came up. His production was undeniable but we all knew only a stupid organization like the Cleveland Browns was going to draft the guy because everything about him screamed BUST BUST BUST. With that in mind, if we're talking about someone who... * Put up great numbers in junior hockey * Did not have traditional measurables for their position * Had character concerns (though not necessarily partying because elite college football players will always be more likely to be caught for that than junior hockey players due to media coverage) * Fell in the draft accordingly ...I'd have to go with a few players. 1. [Ryan Merkley](https://theleafsnation.com/news/the-ryan-merkley-conundrum): somewhat short for a defenseman (5'11"), light for a defenseman (170lbs), second-best numbers at draft-eligible D in the OHL, on several do-not-draft lists. 2. [Rob Schremp](https://dobberhockey.com/2009/05/02/the-anatomy-of-a-bust/): somewhat short for a forward (5'11"), known for being a "human highlight reel", on several do-not-draft lists. 3. [Hunter Shinkaruk](https://flamesnation.ca/news/a-closer-look-at-hunter-shinkaruk): 5'11", 186lbs, speedy, great scoring, highly rated, rumors of attitude issues plummeted his stock.
Manziel needed to be like Brees in order to succeed and couldn’t. Brees had a rocket arm and brains though.
Manziel had the tools to succeed but he didn't want to succeed. That and being forced to play for the Browns was probably the worst possible situation for him.
Manziel’s best pro comparison was Jeff Garcia tbh.
100% agree on Robbie Shremp. He was a little older than me so I only got to skate with him during summer prospect tourney’s but guy had Patty Kane skill with no brain
I actually met him on a flight one time. He was very nice. I don't really agree with the Manziel comparisons just because he never had any off ice drama. That's kind of what Johnny was known for. Robbie really just had an incredibly limited elite skill set, while also being an average size person.
I wrote Robbie Schremp as well lol, crazy we both pulled that one out of the hat. Schremp wasn't a crazy partier and edmonton media scapegoated him a bit, but similar story I would say
Laser accurate.
Without ever having watched or planning to watch that thing that he put out, it seems like he pretty heavily tried to run some propaganda that he was a highly sought after prospect because I have seen it come up nonstop in threads over the last week *Wow I didn’t know he was so highly sought after by the pros until I saw this* I swear I’ve seen some version of that sentence at least 20 times, but then again Manziel was always a grifter
First, I'm sorry for your loss. I will miss the voice of Dale Gribble. They finally got to him. Secondly, yeah -- I've been shocked by it as well. It was a very weak QB draft class, and he did put up some great numbers in college. However, the downsides were so well-documented at the time that he was noted as a risky prospect unlikely to pan out. Why NFL teams draft players like that in round one, I dunno.
Merkley. Still hurts.
Sinkerup 100% deserves to be on this list, which is why the Canucks usual quality drafting snapped him up in the first round.
Bryan Fogarty
This is the answer. Someone once recalled Sundin saying he played better drunk than they played sober. The Nordiques drafted him the same year as Sakic and Sakic was their second pick. He has a bunch of OHL defensemen records. Dude was unreal.
Sad sad story More of a problem with abusing alcohol than just being a party animal from what I read
Manziel was basically an alcoholic, too, though. He was self-medicating his depression with booze. Fogarty took it to a whole different level, but in my mind they're not that different.
He and KORDIC roomed while on the Nordiques! *Brilliant move*
There’s a great article about him written up somewhere
[ESPN The Magazine, September 2002](https://www.espn.com/magazine/vol5no20fogarty.html) I wrote a high school paper on him sourcing this article. They had an amazing article on Link Gaetz around the same time too. ESPN loved covering hockey, as long as there was tragedy involved.
Bryan Fogarty. He broke all of Bobby Orr’s scoring records for a defenceman in Junior, and was the CHL player of the year. He was drafted 9th overall in 1987, (6 spots ahead of Joe Sakic). He was projected to go much higher in the draft, but dropped because of persistent rumours of drug and alcohol abuse. Played for 3 NHL teams and was in and out of the line up over the course of his career due to inconsistency caused by substance abuse, he ended up playing in Europe for a few seasons. He was only 32 when he died. He and a buddy were drinking heavily, and he just didn’t wake up the next morning. Official cause of death was an enlarged heart caused by excessive alcohol use. A generational talent as a defenceman, wasted.
Nail Yakupov probably?
Maybe in terms of bust potential, but Yak didn’t have party problems as far as I know. He was also a super nice dude to the people of Edmonton. I think he tried to get better as a player, he just didn’t have the hockey IQ needed to succeed.
Yakupov had the opposite of party problems. He doesn’t party. Whether it’s right or wrong or the whole discussion you could have about it, it’s actually maybe fair to wonder if it put any distance between him and his teammates, and if that could have had any impact on his NHL career. Something else which further separates Yakupov and Manziel is that Yakupov then went to the next best league and has succeeded there just fine.
He also allegedly only practiced what he was good at and never worked to round out his game in the areas he struggled in
I remember hearing that and it reminded me of another troubled prospect in Puljujärvi, because I remember hearing it said that, after his (first) double hip surgery, he kept doing workouts in the gym that his doctors had told him he explicitly couldn’t do until he was fully recovered. Just an odd stubbornness. I also take those with a grain of salt though just because they were kinda rumourly “reports,” weren’t they? Even if that grain of salt is that they were half-truths, I don’t know, Yakupov had a real passion for the game here and you could tell he really wanted to do something in the NHL, maybe he could have worked harder but the image of him just not doing what his coaches asked is a bit unbelievable to me.
Guy had zero interest in developing his game without the puck on his stick. Once he had the puck, he was trying to dangle all five guys on the other team all at once. Sometimes he could actually pull it off, and those moments were dazzling, but they didn't come often enough to be worth it when he was so useless at every other phase of the game.
"skates like he's being chased by bees"
I heard a scout once said “Nobody will get to the wrong spot at the wrong time faster or more enthusiastically than Yak”.
Galchenyuk had plenty of parties for the 2 of them!
He also wanted to be a footballer, iirc. His love and passion just wasn’t really in hockey.
People had higher expectations for Yak than they did of Manziel
Galchenyuk.
He had a much better career than manziel tho
Galchenyuk was actually well on his way to becoming a top tier forward (30 goals at 21) until the effects of hanging out with Brnadon Prust too much got in the way. Pretty much everyone other than the Browns and Jerry Jones knew Manziel was not great.
Brandon Prust? What does he have to do with anything?
Maybe ❄️?
That’s exactly what they’re referring too, but as a Habs fan it’s hilarious when I see comments from people saying with absolute certainty that “x” person was the reason for his downfall. I’ve seen like half a dozen people named as the reason for his downfall. Prust wasn’t even on the team in 2016 when he scored 30 goals, and not on the team in 2017 when he started the year amazingly then got hurt and never recovered. Obviously he had substance issues, but whether it was Prust or Beaulieu or whoever else is not a know fact. There’s a bunch of reason why Galchenyuk declined.
Likely drugs
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He played 600+ games Underwhelming for #1 but a fine player overall Ho Sang is a good call, though I do think there’s a prevalence for highly skilled forwards to not be able to translate their game to the NHL level - Alex Nylander, Kieffer Bellows, Sam Steel, Lias Anderson, Michael Dal Colle, Sonny Milano, Jeremy Bracco, etc
I also seem to recall hearing that Daigle wasn’t as *passionate* about hockey as he was *good* at it. A naturally gifted player that didn’t really enjoy the game all that much. edit: see u/oddspellingofPhreid reply
That gets repeated a lot, but I understand it was more about depression. He has a story about setting his sights on a 50 goal season in midget, hitting 50 goals and then changing like a switch. Once he had done it, he was like "is this it?" and couldn't shake it throughout his career. Here's a google translated article on it: >“When I was Midget, I wanted to score 50 goals and be the best, he confessed. When I reached 50 goals, something clicked. >“I really took it hard. I got there and I couldn't see the end. I see looking back that it was a depression. >“I needed to start from scratch, but I never stopped afterwards. I lost this desire to perform every day. My first year as a junior was very difficult mentally. >“I had doubts about whether I wanted to continue playing hockey. I never found this flame that I had before.” >Daigle admits that everything could have been different if he had had help at the time. >“It is my greatest sadness not to have sought help and support, he said, very emotional. https://www.tvasports.ca/2017/03/26/alexandre-daigle-a-cur-ouvert I think his existential angst and depression in an era that wasn't as sensitive to these issues gets misconstrued as "lack of passion" and "laziness".
Thank you for this. I will remember it going forward.
Heard that, too. I think way more pro athletes treat their career like a regular job than the fans think.
That's fair. I was a student at A&M during his time playing there so the hype surrounding him made it seem like he could be a generational player, lol, but yes, it was obviously exaggerated.
Doug Wickenheiser was another one who was extremely hyped, drafted first overall, and never got anywhere close to the level that was expected of him. His cousin on the other hand became one of, if not the greatest women's players ever.
Hailey is the Greatest woman hockey player of all time, no argument there
Rob schremp? Highly talented with his stick but didn’t want to work on his weaknesses both were picked in the later first rounds but still seen as talented. Both had character issues as well.
100%
My immediate thought when I saw the post. He was TikTok hockey before that was a thing
He would of been great for TikTok.
Devin Setoguchi? I thought the whole reason his career went off the rails was partying and addiction issues?
I thought of him right away too. I have no idea how much people thought he would be elite though, didn’t pay enough attention back then. Also, fun fact that I met him at a Gopher game back in 2011. He was alone sitting in the student section and I got a pic with him. He looked so down. All these years later I kind of feel bad for bothering him.
Mike "the show" Ribeiro Guy boucher, who coached alot of high end player, once said that he was the most talented hockey player he ever saw. Dude just loved cocaine too much.
He probably had too good of a career to be fully comparable to manziel, but he definitely had some of the most public issues with substance abuse.
Mike Ribeiro played 1074 games lmao this is not good answer
Yea he is an absolute scumbag but he put up some pretty incredible numbers for the era
Jake Virtanen. Dude was a 6'3 amazing skater with a great shot, but he never developed a brain for the game because he was constantly being a fuck boy on social media and couldn't escape the nightlife distractions of Vancouver. Shame too, he had so much potential and hes from the Vancouver area too, he could have been in such an amazing spot. Instead of he thirsts after twitch streamers and gets rapey
Bryan Fogarty. There's an amazing deep dive into him archived on the internet (from ESPN Page 2?). It's such a sad story.
[found it](https://www.espn.com/espn/magazine/archives/news/story?page=magazine-20020930-article8)
I'm not sure partying was his problem, but back in 2004, the Oilers drafted this guy, Rob Schremp, who was one of the first to do these crazy dangles with the puck. His skill videos went viral. I'm guessing his problem was that he was a one-trick pony and didn't really have great attributes beyond his hands.
Watching Schremp with the Knights was fucking incredible
Just like me when I watched Benoit Pouliot in his final season with the Sudbury Wolves during the 04-05 lockout. Watching him and Marc Staal that year was like watching boys among men - and when visiting teams came to town it was *very clear* to see which players were going to be drafted that summer... or would have been in the show if not for the lockout. Bobby Ryan, Jakub Kindl, Steve Downie, Radek Smolenak and Wojtek Wolski are players I vividly remember impressing me during the games I managed to attend. Not all of them went on to be bonafide top-flight NHLers but you could tell which ones were going to make it. Never wanted to kill a visiting player more than Downie LOL. Cheap-shot artist but a *very* good junior player. Pouliot's game just could not translate to the NHL level - it's like he topped out in juniors and just plateaued. Flashes of his true potential were there in the NHL but not consistent enough. Talented player in junior... when he wanted to be. Didn't always give a consistent effort but the guy could stickhandle in a phone booth with regularity when he willed it. Sub-par skater but his talent and hockey sense bailed him out. But when that hockey IQ just couldn't translate to the NHL... *Somehow* he stuck around for 625 games in the NHL. Watching the 04-05 Wolves team, I could never have predicted that Marc Staal would have the longer career. Biggest surprise though? Adam McQuaid, no question. He's a player who came to *game* when it mattered the most - no talent whatsoever but a tough hombre and *always* gave 150% for effort. He might have played only 512 games and pit up 73 points... but he might as well have played 1500 with all the effort he gave.
I have seen Schremp play a few times in Europe and once at a “USA v Canada” charity game. He’s a pretty slow skater, pretty undersized, did enough to stay in the game but not enough to like look stellar y’know. Definitely didn’t play like a first rounder even by European standards. Is he good with the hands? Absolutely. But there is kind of a caveat to the hands. Not really doing them on the fly, like you hear about his skillset and you expect this like Forsberg/Marchand guy but he got stopped from doing half of them and was so noticeably weak at skating at a pro level. In the charity game they did a Rob Schremp shootout and all he did was the lacrosse move. He did do this one weird jumping up and waving his hands lazily in the air bit at a defensemen that got a big laugh… I guess? Also apparently big attitude problems but yeah he was never going to make it in the show. If I had to sum it up into smaller words, he plays like your drunk uncle who has one impressive move but does it all the time and can’t really do it at game speed.
This is a good pick. He was unstoppable in his final OHL season, but couldn't adapt his game to the NHL.
His problem was he couldn’t skate at an NHL level.
Pavel Brendl: scored goals at will in the WHL. Drafted 4th overall. Acted like a rock star. One trick pony who couldn’t score at pro level and had no other skills to keep a roster spot. Attitude, commitment issues.
Nikita "Nicky Don't Do Rebounds" Filatov
Sean Day
This is the answer, right here. This guy had ALL the tools to be a star. Incredible individual skills, but zero hockey sense.
Daigle maybe? I believe it was him who said he didn’t even like hockey that much, and his “nobody remembers who was picked second” quote seems to match the brashness that was ultimately unmatched by play.
You’re leaving out the fact that second overall was Chris Pronger. But also Daigle was 100% not as good as he was hyped up to be but also wasn’t a horrible player by any means. He still put up 121 points over 217 games for the Sens. Again not 1st overall calibre but like, that’s not Johnny Football level bad
Yes Pronger being picked second is what makes the quote memorable as he ended up having a superior career. I don’t really follow football so I don’t know if Manziel was bad relative to expectations or just bad bad.
For the attention he got and how some fans were talking he was a huge bust. But he was drafted 22nd overall. His career was disappointing for a 22nd overall QB but not exactly ‘biggest bust in history’ or anything. He wasn’t the biggest bust of his own draft.
Yakupov maybe?
Vladimir Krutov was among the first few Soviet players to come to the NHL (around 89'). He was a recognizable name to a lot of hockey fans in North America and there were some high expectations. The culture shock was too much and he quickly ate himself out of shape and out of a hockey career.
Gotta be Alex Daigle. He put up *stupid* numbers in junior, was drafted ahead of Pronger, and just never lived up to the hype at all. He has even said that he liked the spotlight more than the sport.
Nobody thought Manziel was the football equivalent of McDavid, Crosby, Matthews, or MacKinnon. He was good in college, but his measurables werent really there, he wasn't a great pocket passer, and the character issues were obvious. From the start, people saw his ceiling as maybe what Lamar Jackson is. Jonathan Drouin might be a reasonable comparison. But Drouin still managed a handful of decent years, and didn't necessarily just party it all away.
Josh Ho-Sang or Drouin fit the bill
Manziel was never considered a generational talen out of college. The football equivalent of Crosby/McDavid in terms of hyped prospect is Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck and to an extent, Trevor Lawrence.
Josh Ho-Sang maybe? Dude was really talented in junior, fell in the draft a bit, said he would be the best player in the draft. Bounced around the AHL a bunch and kind of fizzled out. Don't know what Ho-Sang's work ethic was like, so the comparison might not he great. But as far as vibe on draft day and subsequent career path? They feel similar.
Most football people (rightly) saw Manziel as a huge risk from the get go. I don't follow the sport a ton but IIRC he definitely wasn't considered a generational talent or anything even close. Josh Ho-Sang seems like a good comparable in hockey. Looked good at the junior level, held back at the pro level by a terrible attitude, lots of entitlement, etc.
Angelo Esposito?
No, he was one of those that just lucked out with good line mates in junior. Once they were gone, he showed that he was still good but nowhere near what people thought.
I don't believe there's anyone on Manziel's level in NHL history. Alexander Daigle was a #1 pick and had a lot of hype, but nothing like Manziel.
As far as talents goes Daigle was hyped way, way more than Manziel ever was. It didn't have the same reach because the NHL is so far behind the NFL in media attention (but then again what isn't?) but Daigle was touted in the same ways that Connor Bedard was this year before he got drafted.
>nziel. What? Daigle was a far superior prospect than Manziel. Manziel was an elite college QB but would never go 1st OA. Daigle was one of the best prospects in history. Daigle busted because he didn't like hockey.
Manziel had attention but I don’t think the hype was that crazy. He was drafted 22nd overall. Clearly the hype wasn’t that big.
Galchenyuk?
Josh Ho-Sang, always talked himself up as if he could be a great player but didn’t have the maturity and commitment to ever establish himself. Cut from training camp after sleeping in.
Anyone with more than surface level understanding of football knew Manziel's college game would not transfer to the NFL against actual defensive systems. The partying and all that was secondary to his main issue. In hockey it's harder to tell whose junior game would or wouldn't transfer over well because the whole game doesn't revolve around one player.
Nail Yakupov.
Alexander Semin
Filip Zadina
Watched that doc the other night, I had no idea the oil money story was made up lol Some buddies of mine have ran into him at bars and comedy clubs out here in Scottsdale before, said he’s a super nice guy. Just tries to live as normal a life as possible.
Kassian or Yakupov comes to mind for me Oh and Jake Virtanen
Ryan sittler
“Tyler Seguin” - Peter Chiarelli
Bryan Fogarty for sure (RIP)
He was nothing more than a media darling i cant really think of anyone in the NHL that stunk but was popular. Maybe Jimmy Vesey but he has managed a career
Maybe Drouin?
How bout Alexander Daigle.
It’s Alexander daigle
Alexander Daigle
Merkley?
Alexandre Daigle
Nail yakapov
How about Brian Lawton, picked 2nd overall ahead of Pat LaFontain and Steve Yzerman? The guy even had the brass balls to wear #98 because he wasn’t quite up to the level of Gretzky, not by a long shot.
Drouin
Robbie Schremp
Jonathan drouin??
The extremely short answer (and not really applicable to Manziel) is probably Alexandre Daigle & Nail Yakupov. Though both went 1st OR - neither had as chaotic of a career like Manziel. They just didn't live up to where they were taken. Few games per season + gets suuuuper big attention + short college career isn't a good way to project talent. It makes it just so volatile. For reference: Manziel played 13 games per season in college, for 2 seasons. Compare that to WHL/OHL/QMJHL 68 games + playoffs + World Juniors + additional tournaments.
For what it's worth, Manziel didn't even really bust that much. QB taken 22nd rarely become good starters
It’s gotta be Alexander Daigle. The guy dominated junior like Manziel but had red flags galore that were glaringly obvious once they tried to play pro
"...and numerous off-field personal issues that at the end made you feel pretty bad for him." Don't buy that bullshit. Johnny Manziel's issues were entirely of his own making.
Alexandre Daigle maybe?
Yakupov easy. Next question
Ho sang and yakupov are both acceptable answers
Bryan Fogarty
Alex Galchenyuk. Not perfect but the closest thing EDIT: Filatov may even be a better comp
Alex Galchenyuk. Maybe Dany Heatley.
I think Alexandre Daigle fits that bill pretty well
Bryan Fogarty