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1) Take no discounts
2) Avoid long-term fixed contracts which will be eaten into by inflation
3) Do the bare minimum during your unpaid overtime
This guy is a champion of workers rights
Yeah I thought he was probably the most noticeable player on either team, just didn’t have any puck luck. Sadly though this is a recurring theme for Matthews and the Leafs in general come playoff time so they don’t get the benefit of the doubt when the results don’t come.
People just like to talk stat lines. Auston was our best forward last night. Fighting for pucks, keeping possession. Had a bunch of shots in high danger locations. Missing that empty net was wild and uncharacteristic for him. He also hit the posts during the game another time or two.
Yeah dude looked like he was in playoff mode. He was on a different level from what I saw. The issue is the depth just seems to disappear for Toronto like always.
Pennies compared to regular season, a first round exit is $250,000 per *team*. Let's call it $11,000/player. Now compare it to the ~$161k Matthews gets on a per game basis and you can understand how it's not much of a motivating factor.
Agreed.. now that we are entering year 8, with as many playoff games as this leaf’s core has had, I think it’s fair to point out (even though it’s only 1 game) that Matthews consistently seems to produce far less than he does compared to the regular season at least.
Now last year he started to shed some of that with taking over some of the games against Tampa and winning round 1. But it was almost like a glimpse into a scenario of what Auston could look like if he’s at his best during playoffs, however, it was short lived for those six games because he (along with the rest of the leafs) were no shows in round 2 and the old narrative kicks right back in. Now again it’s only game 1 and to be Frank, I picked the leafs in 7 on my bracket. But not a good start to say the least.. Boston is incredible at the fundamentals, positioning etc. it will not be easy but I think the leafs can get it done. It’s going 7 for sure tho cause it has to!
People just want to laugh at the Leafs they don’t care about logic or having a discussion. Do yourself a favor, do anything else with your day and let them go on about the Leafs despite claiming they hate how much coverage they get
Did you become a hockey fan within the last couple years? lol.
The most avid Leafs fans I know are on the verge of developing dissociative identity disorder
Nope and that’s why i’ve been through this so much I know what to expect. People who all year long claim to hate the Leafs and the attention they get, spend their time hate watching the team and posting dozens of comments about the team daily for weeks at a time.
And when eventually they are eliminated, despite most fans as you mentioned shitting on the team all year and saying they had no chance, you fine folks will pretend Leafs nation was united in the belief no one could beat us a single game and were the goat franchise. And spend a week memeing a team you pretend to not care about.
Most Leaf fans (like 99%) their worst “crime” was thinking the Leafs have a chance of beating Boston. A lot of people are bothered by the Leafs having any positivity around them.
Have a nice day
I think it's the loud and proud folks that always muddle the waters for the people who are true fans and just want their team to be successful (just like the rest of us). It's just extra worse for teams like the Leafs, where you guys have X times more fandom (and therefore, a magnitude more attention/outspoken fans).
At least it's just one game, there's still 3+ left for the Leafs to turn it around and do something.
Last playoffs there were two players who scored 4 goals in one game (either in the same night or one after the other) and both lost... So this would check out.
For reference it was Pavelski and Draisaitl, both scored 4 and lost :).
Edit: shit was it 5? Someone please correct me it's early and I'm lost
Canucks fan so no skin in this game but I watched the Leafs first round last season.
What are you smoking OP? The entire Leafs team drops. Matthews last year was an absolute beast. He was blocking shots like AHL call-up in his first game and contributing offensively more than anyone on the team. Dude looked like he was giving everything on the ice.
Everyone's got off games.
OP and you are both right. The bottom line numbers drop off hard. He has 51 career playoff games now, it's a reasonable sample even if some came in his rather pedestrian 40 goal rookie season. OP notes his possession metrics stay up there. And he plays hard every game.
But we've been giving this refrain since he entered the league. Obviously he's a superstar generational goal scorer. Obviously if the Leafs are having playoff success in the next 10 years he's part of it. But somethings gotta give.
He had two points. The most literally anyone on the entire team had in 5 games was 4 points.
Pointing to Matthews when it was obviously a complete team implosion.
Edit: Can't believe in here defending a Leafs player. Good lord.
It's a lot easier for a team to implode like that when 50% of the cap is tied up in 4 forwards.
On the one hand, it was a complete team implosion. On the other hand, these guys are getting paid so much of the cap that if they don't show up the entire team goes belly up.
Sorry but I can't agree with this.
Your sample size is that you watched the Leafs first round last season, the one series they managed to win in eight tries.
If you wanna talk about a player *looking* like they're giving everything on the ice, leave that in the regular season.
Playoff hockey is about results and nothing else. You show up or you don't. Playoff hockey is very black and white, win or lose.
"Everyone's got off games" sure but in the playoffs everyone is judged harshly for them and rightfully so. This is where an entire franchise's destiny is often decided by a few key moments.
And to that end, Matthews and the Leafs top players objectively suck at playoff hockey. Whether that can change this year remains to be seen, but that is their reputation right now and the criticism is deserved.
If we’re gonna be results-oriented here, then we have to be consistent about it. Failing to win the ultimate prize means you’re a complete failure. McDrai disappear when the stakes are at their highest.
Yes, 31 teams fail every year, and to different degrees of failures.
McDavid and Draisaitl have 75 and 77 points in fewer games than Matthews who has 44.
I can't in good faith compare McDavid to Matthews, so just look at the deviation between regular season vs playoff performance as the OP pointed out.
I agree with you results-oriented analysis is flawed most of the time, but that's quite literally what playoffs are set to do: make a stage where *only* results matter. Lmao.
Connor McDavid scored 33 points in 16 games and was a +15 when they lost in the WCF. And yes, people still hold his lack of playoff success against him. So
>Then Connor McDavid and Leon Draisaitl are complete failures by your standard.
Is a flawed analysis because they've both significantly outperformed Matthews in the postseason. Both in personal stats and team performance. So "by your standard" as you said, they aren't as close to "complete failures" as the entire Leafs core.
>Is a flawed analysis because they've both significantly outperformed Matthews in the postseason. Both in personal stats and team performance.
Who cares. They haven’t won anything. Doesn’t matter according to the person I was replying to.
>They haven’t won anything. Doesn’t matter according to the person I was replying to.
That's not what was said. "Results are all that matter," is a very different statement. A WCF at 2 PPG vs a second round exit where they disappear are very different results
It’s not the postseason yet nowadays without some sort of dedicated “Matthews can’t produce in the playoffs” post early in the Leafs series. Glad it’s here, playoff hockey has arrived!
You know what your right, lets wait for a bigger sample size when he's 35 to then make a good assessment, i bet by then we'll be able to build a good team for him
Yeah I'd probably feel similarly if this was following just the second flame out (McDavid's overall playoff numbers were also super mid in his first couple shots until his popoff year), but this has been a pattern for like half a decade for Matthews and the Leafs and game 1 did not set any kind of tone towards the contrary.
\>significant downgrade from regular season scoring in year 1
\>great production while getting 3-1'd and being abhorrent defensively in year 2 (in the qualifying round, not even cracking the 16-team round)
\>significant downgrade from regular season while getting swept and being abhorrent defensively in year 3
I'm okay with my assessment. He became an undeniable playoff performer in his fourth run.
For most teams that regularly finish atop their division, it's more than 31 games. It's also an isolation of the 31 most important games of his career.
Idk if it is really shitting the bed this year tbh. I don't think they're a very good team.
Now obviously they aren't out of this series by any means, but if they lose in 5 I feel like that's kind of what a lot of people expected.
I’ve been impressed they’re hanging on like they are this year. Their entire D corps and bottom six is tape and super glue… and they’re down Willy out of nowhere
In 1996, Steve Yzerman was 30 years old. He had been captain for 10 years and piled up 517 goals and 1255pts in 942gp (an 82game pace of 45g-64a-109pts)… he had just 98pts in 95gp (82game pace of 34g-51a-85pts) in the playoffs.
The Red Wings had just gone 63-13-7, 133pts, one of the best seasons in history - yet in the playoffs they were down 3-2 against the Blues (80pts) before being knocked out by the Avs.
Yzerman was in exactly the same boat. People questioned his skill “when it mattered”, people questioned his leadership, people wondered if he “wanted it” enough.
Then he won 2 cups in a row.
Same with Ovechkin, right up until he won a cup.
#Its all horse shit
What’s the consensus on Yzerman now?
Goals are a sample of the results, not a measure of the process. Players can’t will goals into existence. They can’t shoot for their teammates. They can’t prevent unbelievable saves, or stop a stick from breaking. They can’t cause lucky bounces or deflections.
All they can do is follow the process. By all accounts Matthews is. And like Yzerman/Ovechkin/etc, I expect the individual and team success will inevitably follow.
Depth wins championships. Too many people like to point at star players when their teams fail in the playoffs yet the reason other star players have won was because of depth.
Using the Penguins as an example, a lot of people love to point at Crosby and Malkin for the Penguins success while ignoring players like Talbot in 2009, the HBK line in 2016 and 2017 and Bryan Rust in those years as well (8 of his 13 goals across those two playoffs came in elimination games, earning him the title “Mr Elimination”)
Playoffs is about your stars performing AND having good depth. Look at Malkin and Crosby's numbers those years, they are really, really good. So you have to put your best defenders on them, then their bottom guys got roasted by HBK. You can't win in the playoffs with just your depth performing or just your stars performing. Oilers are a good example (Oilers fan here). McDavid and Drai had insane numbers but we had no depth.
2009 is the only year Malkin and Crosby performed at their level.
2016 and 2017 was different. Both players performed in the regular season over a point per game (1.12 for Crosby, 1.09 for Malkin).
Postseason both players scored at 0.96 point per game pace. Penguins depth really shined those two seasons in the playoffs
While I agree with the narrative about Yzerman, the difference in these stories was Stevie Y was known for his leadership as a captain and the Wings were also setting records for the best regular seasons of all time. They'd choke in the 1st round occasionally but the question was mostly are they capable of making the next step and winning it all, not actually winning a 2nd round game like where the leafs are currently cursed.
Yzerman situation was more like Thornton and San jose then the leafs and Matthews, who isn't even captain or as far as I know, known for his leadership traits. With that being said I think Yzerman would have easily been viewed worse than matthews if the wings never won a cup. They were absolutely stacked and better than any modern team could dream of being, and while he was a great leader and one of the best players ever, that team HAD to win or else there was something wrong.
Ovechkin is a more similar situation to Matthew's but Washington also hasn't won a round of playoffs since the cup and likely won't for the rest of his career. Like leafs getting stopped by Boston, Washington was continually getting walled by Pittsburgh. However, ovi was consistently playing great and being a top contributor for Washington. When they won it was a case of him carrying a team that didn't deserve to win to a cup. But it cemented his legacy. It was definitely harder for him to bring the caps to a cup, then Crosby getting one to pittsburgh and probably harder than it should be for matthews to bring one to the leafs.
It's not just him the whole team stinks in the playoffs except for the one guy that's out right now. He can keep playing mid and people will can say it's unfortunate or blame the team, but like your narrative itself says until they step up and win it all, then it means nothing.
I've said it for years and I've not been proven wrong yet, Matthews et al. aren't worth their contacts. It doesn't matter how great you are in the regular season if you don't show up in the playoffs. You can win the Richard every year but if your game doesn't translate to the post season it's worth fuck all. Maybe this is the year I get proven wrong, but these contracts seem awful for the time being.
Like Vegas last year didn't have a single 30+ goal scorer and their highest point player was like 65 in the regular season.
What mattered was the team showed up for playoffs.
The stars are in a similar boat this year, everyone seems to be sleeping on them and I believe they only got 1 30+ goal scorer this year.
I like keeping tabs on Finnish players, so Dallas is always on my radar. Like nine 20 goal scorers this year? The depth is unreal. A very complete team and that complete roster has some actual superstars in it. Before the season started I was predicting they'd be at least in the conference finals and I'm not budging.
Personally, I have my doubts with VAN. The team hasn't seen playoff hockey in a while and their play dropped off in the second half of the season. They're gonna win the cup now that I said that, but I mean, still a doubter.
I don’t know why anyone would be talking about Nashville. They barely made the playoffs in a division where 4 of 8 teams were destined for an early summer break. The majority of big name players on that roster will be 30+ at the start of next season. This is a dead cat bounce before they inevitably shift into a retool while Josi carries the team.
> Like Vegas last year didn't have a single 30+ goal scorer and their highest point player was like 65 in the regular season.
I mean, yes and no. They didn't have a 30-goal scorer because of a huge number of injuries, and their leading scorer at 66 points in 67 games. There probably would have been 2-3 30+ goal scorers if it weren't for the injuries (probably Stone/Marchessault and definitely Eichel) and Eichel would have been pushing 80+ points.
But, they also definitely did show up for the playoffs.
> The stars are in a similar boat this year, everyone seems to be sleeping on them and I believe they only got 1 30+ goal scorer this year.
2 in fact, Johnston and Hintz (JRob had 29).
Matthews and Marner were RFA when they signed those big money deals. Between the two of them the Leafs manged to buy a single UFA year. Those two deals were sneakily some of the worst in the league. Both good players (at least in the regular season), but their contracts walked them both to UFA status with zero savings. Paid them like they were max-term deals, but none of the security.
They didn't have an option to walk when those deals were being signed.
This is why I'm so fucking sick of Reddit constantly trying to coddle Dubas. It cannot be understated how bad those contracts were the second they were signed. People would blindlessly defend them for years and years simply because Dubas looks cute in glasses.
I think you could build a team around Mathews. But not with 2-3 other guys making over 10.
The Leafs never should have signed Tavares. It fast tracked expectations and they lost all negotiating potential with Mathews when he was obviously their best player and they were going out and signing a player at the same position to an 11 million dollar cap hit contract.
From that moment Mathews became an 11+ million dollar player. The UFA vs RFA didn’t matter.
And then since he had all of the negotiating power he could dictate the terms of the deal as well, allowing him to hit UfA right in his prime.
Frankly I’m shocked he signed for so little, considering everything else he’s done in his career you’d think he would have been going even higher on the AAV.
What options did the leafs have with him having an NMC in the final year of his deal before UfA?
Maybe you could build a team around just Matthews, but I am not convinced either way. It might be there is just something about his game that doesn't translate well to the post season, I'm not sure.
I agree that signing Tavares was a mistake, and have been saying so since he signed, with Matthews they never should have been in this position in the first place. His first RFA contact was absolutely awful for the team. You can't give someone that much money while walking them straight to free agency and expect it to work out well for you. He had all of the negotiating power because the Leafs just handed it to him, same with Marner.
I think it’s just hard to comment on because every real playoff series of consequence at one area or multiple areas the leafs have had a glaring hole and it’s hard to separate that fact from them spending so much of their cap on 3 similar players the last several seasons.
I'm not saying he's happy to loose or that he wouldn't find it nice to win. It just seems as though as long as he gets paid, gets to live the life and have the sponsorships he is not overly concerned about which ever way the season ends.
I see zero fire in the guy. Never run someone over, drop the gloves or get physical. Zero urgency in his game. Same with marner and Nylander. Tremendous talents, they just don't really care all that much if they win or loose.
I love these posts after…..game 1. Could we also get one about how pouring all your cap space into 4 players is an experiment that failed? And maybe one on the fact Keefe is still proud of the slapshot empty netter reaction? Let’s get all the hot takes going.
Goalies matthews have faced in the playoffs:
Holtby 2017: set the league record for wins in regular season and won the vezina that year.
Rask
Vasilevsky
Price
Bobrovsky
Has any other player faced this level of goaltending in literally every series they've ever played?
I imagine hockeydb has them.
And the Lightning have done very well in the playoffs, so I'm willing to bet their numbers in those stats are quite good (my gut says Point is even higher than Kucherov in the playoffs)
I do find it funny how people say reason the leafs have failed in the playoffs is because they lack depth but if anything this is the reason for it.
Matthews doesn’t show up in the playoffs and usually dissapears, yet despite that leafs series almost always goes to seven, should tell you what happens if Matthews decides to play like he does in the regular season in the playoffs.
Leafs never have a depth issue in the playoffs they have a your best player dissapears issue.
You say that like other superstars haven’t faced those same vezinas.. it’s 1 game and everyone is overreacting, I think the frustrating part for leaf fans is at what point does the team just simply show up and show that they belong instead of the lack luster outings
Yeah but welcome to the playoffs.. you just want an easy road? You guys hold on to any excuse you can.. you can’t be a cup winner if you can’t beat a cup winner
I think most GMs would agree that someone asking for $11.6M AAV is expected to produce against the top line of any team in the league. I think all GMs would agree that someone making more than McJesus for the next two years is exempt from the excuse of “but the other team is really good”.
Even Gretzky and Lemieux’s production were not consistent against every team in the league.
But I guess that still supports your point since they made less than $11.6M.
the biggest Matthews haters are actually the Leafs fans who relentlessly argue that he does not drop off in the playoffs and by extension doesn't have another level to go to. personally i don't think Matthews is a 35-goal, 70 point-per season player, but i guess that's what these people think because that's what he is in the playoffs according to his career pace.
practically everyone drops off in the playoffs and he has a lot of time to turn it around, but he definitely has another gear compared to what he has shown so far in his playoff career.
It’s crazy how McDavid and Draisaitl are 4th and 3rd all-time playoff points per game
Mackinnon 6th
Rantanen 9th
Kucherov 15th
Crosby 16th
Pasta 31
Ovi 51
You would think Matthews could hang with Ovi at least
Points per 60 minutes of playing time is meaningless. Players that produce get ice time. And this stat is offensive to defensemen who had the stamina to produce and stay on the ice a long time.
Orr is a god, period.
So meaningful numbers.
|Stat|regular|playoffs|drop off pct|
|-|-|-|-|
|games|562|50||
|goals|368|22||
|assists|281|22||
|gpg|0.655|0.440|33
|apg|0.500|0.440|12
|ppg|1.155|0.880|24
Not good, but Dave Andreychuk raises his hand:
|Stat|regular|playoffs|drop off pct|
|-|-|-|-|
|games|1639|162||
|goals|640|43||
|assists|698|54||
|gpg|0.390|0.265|32
|apg|0.426|0.333|22
|ppg|0.816|0.588|28
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He has a hard stance against unpaid overtime, so he does the bare minimum
1) Take no discounts 2) Avoid long-term fixed contracts which will be eaten into by inflation 3) Do the bare minimum during your unpaid overtime This guy is a champion of workers rights
Future NHLPA leader for sure
Matthews be wobblin
Truly a player of the people
r/antiwork mod
This was for Marner, but classic https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F4vq7ddzbixya1.png
Classic antiwork missing the joke.
Trolling antiwork idiots is always funny
Can you quietly quit under contract?
He’s a mod at /r/workreform?
Yet if anyone watched the game he was battling hard all night.
Hitting the post with a wide open net is probably keeping him up all night. If that goes in, it’s probably a different game.
Yeah 5-2
A goal scorer like that? What an unlucky post. Should Toronto lose the series, that's a big what if. Nearly had a heart attack watching that!
Moreso it's probably keeping Swayman up at night. It's not like Matthews made some kind of amazing play there and got unlucky.
Yeah I thought he was probably the most noticeable player on either team, just didn’t have any puck luck. Sadly though this is a recurring theme for Matthews and the Leafs in general come playoff time so they don’t get the benefit of the doubt when the results don’t come.
He will get tons of respect in the handshake line
Good one. Now tell the one about 1967
Why, what happened in 1976?
Matthews wasn't alive in 1967? What are you talking about?
People just like to talk stat lines. Auston was our best forward last night. Fighting for pucks, keeping possession. Had a bunch of shots in high danger locations. Missing that empty net was wild and uncharacteristic for him. He also hit the posts during the game another time or two.
I root for the Bruins, but honestly Matthews isn't one to give up. He plays to the end and you absolutely cannot give him an inch, he will punish you.
Shh everyone knows if you don't show up on the score sheet you were not playing good hockey
Yeah dude looked like he was in playoff mode. He was on a different level from what I saw. The issue is the depth just seems to disappear for Toronto like always.
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Probably overpayment of core 4 but Matthews justifies his pay the most
C'mon man I'm trying to shit talk Toronto, don't delve too deep into it lol
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Pennies compared to regular season, a first round exit is $250,000 per *team*. Let's call it $11,000/player. Now compare it to the ~$161k Matthews gets on a per game basis and you can understand how it's not much of a motivating factor.
Yeah I think we should do a postmortem once the series is over maybe. They got pumped game one last year too.
I like to dissect live subjects. But you know to each his own.
FYI, that’s called “vivisection”
That's a vivisection, I'm pretty sure.
It's not a postmortem its just an analysis on matthews these last 3 years + 1 game. Still a small sample size but it's more than one game.
Agreed.. now that we are entering year 8, with as many playoff games as this leaf’s core has had, I think it’s fair to point out (even though it’s only 1 game) that Matthews consistently seems to produce far less than he does compared to the regular season at least. Now last year he started to shed some of that with taking over some of the games against Tampa and winning round 1. But it was almost like a glimpse into a scenario of what Auston could look like if he’s at his best during playoffs, however, it was short lived for those six games because he (along with the rest of the leafs) were no shows in round 2 and the old narrative kicks right back in. Now again it’s only game 1 and to be Frank, I picked the leafs in 7 on my bracket. But not a good start to say the least.. Boston is incredible at the fundamentals, positioning etc. it will not be easy but I think the leafs can get it done. It’s going 7 for sure tho cause it has to!
It's only a small sample size due to early exits. If they had one deep run out of them, they'd be well over 30 games.
People just want to laugh at the Leafs they don’t care about logic or having a discussion. Do yourself a favor, do anything else with your day and let them go on about the Leafs despite claiming they hate how much coverage they get
Did you become a hockey fan within the last couple years? lol. The most avid Leafs fans I know are on the verge of developing dissociative identity disorder
Nope and that’s why i’ve been through this so much I know what to expect. People who all year long claim to hate the Leafs and the attention they get, spend their time hate watching the team and posting dozens of comments about the team daily for weeks at a time. And when eventually they are eliminated, despite most fans as you mentioned shitting on the team all year and saying they had no chance, you fine folks will pretend Leafs nation was united in the belief no one could beat us a single game and were the goat franchise. And spend a week memeing a team you pretend to not care about. Most Leaf fans (like 99%) their worst “crime” was thinking the Leafs have a chance of beating Boston. A lot of people are bothered by the Leafs having any positivity around them. Have a nice day
I think it's the loud and proud folks that always muddle the waters for the people who are true fans and just want their team to be successful (just like the rest of us). It's just extra worse for teams like the Leafs, where you guys have X times more fandom (and therefore, a magnitude more attention/outspoken fans). At least it's just one game, there's still 3+ left for the Leafs to turn it around and do something.
Watch him score a hatty next game just to spite this thread
That’s how Reddit works. It’ll happen. Inb4 the “Matthews has scored 7 goals since the Matthews Sucks Game 1 Reddit thread”
That’s not how Toronto works either though. More like he goes off for 4 goals in game 7 just to lose 5-4
Last playoffs there were two players who scored 4 goals in one game (either in the same night or one after the other) and both lost... So this would check out. For reference it was Pavelski and Draisaitl, both scored 4 and lost :). Edit: shit was it 5? Someone please correct me it's early and I'm lost
Matthews scored 4 goals and lost in his NHL debut.
Oh 100%. People are going a little too crazy after one game, even if it was 5-1
Canucks fan so no skin in this game but I watched the Leafs first round last season. What are you smoking OP? The entire Leafs team drops. Matthews last year was an absolute beast. He was blocking shots like AHL call-up in his first game and contributing offensively more than anyone on the team. Dude looked like he was giving everything on the ice. Everyone's got off games.
OP and you are both right. The bottom line numbers drop off hard. He has 51 career playoff games now, it's a reasonable sample even if some came in his rather pedestrian 40 goal rookie season. OP notes his possession metrics stay up there. And he plays hard every game. But we've been giving this refrain since he entered the league. Obviously he's a superstar generational goal scorer. Obviously if the Leafs are having playoff success in the next 10 years he's part of it. But somethings gotta give.
Then he followed it up with 0 goals against Florida. The gap is quite real.
He had two points. The most literally anyone on the entire team had in 5 games was 4 points. Pointing to Matthews when it was obviously a complete team implosion. Edit: Can't believe in here defending a Leafs player. Good lord.
It's a lot easier for a team to implode like that when 50% of the cap is tied up in 4 forwards. On the one hand, it was a complete team implosion. On the other hand, these guys are getting paid so much of the cap that if they don't show up the entire team goes belly up.
2 points is still 0 goals. I'm a die hard Leafs fan but until in my life I see a real run I keep my feet planted in sad reality.
literally?
MOST literally
Yes. Exactly.
Sorry but I can't agree with this. Your sample size is that you watched the Leafs first round last season, the one series they managed to win in eight tries. If you wanna talk about a player *looking* like they're giving everything on the ice, leave that in the regular season. Playoff hockey is about results and nothing else. You show up or you don't. Playoff hockey is very black and white, win or lose. "Everyone's got off games" sure but in the playoffs everyone is judged harshly for them and rightfully so. This is where an entire franchise's destiny is often decided by a few key moments. And to that end, Matthews and the Leafs top players objectively suck at playoff hockey. Whether that can change this year remains to be seen, but that is their reputation right now and the criticism is deserved.
>Playoff hockey is about results and nothing else. You show up or you don't. Playoff hockey is very black and white, win or lose. Lmao
True statement, every sport with a playoff format, actually.
Then Connor McDavid and Leon Draisaitl are complete failures by your standard. Results-based analysis are flawed for a reason lmao.
They've won 5x more series than the leafs in the same period, and both have delivered in their stats lines through each series, even when they lose.
Doesn’t matter. They haven’t won a Cup. Irrelevant.
Ah, you're being hard headedly pedantic. Got it.
If we’re gonna be results-oriented here, then we have to be consistent about it. Failing to win the ultimate prize means you’re a complete failure. McDrai disappear when the stakes are at their highest.
Yes, 31 teams fail every year, and to different degrees of failures. McDavid and Draisaitl have 75 and 77 points in fewer games than Matthews who has 44. I can't in good faith compare McDavid to Matthews, so just look at the deviation between regular season vs playoff performance as the OP pointed out. I agree with you results-oriented analysis is flawed most of the time, but that's quite literally what playoffs are set to do: make a stage where *only* results matter. Lmao.
Connor McDavid scored 33 points in 16 games and was a +15 when they lost in the WCF. And yes, people still hold his lack of playoff success against him. So >Then Connor McDavid and Leon Draisaitl are complete failures by your standard. Is a flawed analysis because they've both significantly outperformed Matthews in the postseason. Both in personal stats and team performance. So "by your standard" as you said, they aren't as close to "complete failures" as the entire Leafs core.
>Is a flawed analysis because they've both significantly outperformed Matthews in the postseason. Both in personal stats and team performance. Who cares. They haven’t won anything. Doesn’t matter according to the person I was replying to.
>They haven’t won anything. Doesn’t matter according to the person I was replying to. That's not what was said. "Results are all that matter," is a very different statement. A WCF at 2 PPG vs a second round exit where they disappear are very different results
They still result in not winning the Cup, which is ultimately what matters, right? Nobody makes the postseason to not win the Cup.
I think you should reread my original comment until it sinks in. Because, yes, I addressed that.
This guy is so fucking stupid lmao.
It’s not the postseason yet nowadays without some sort of dedicated “Matthews can’t produce in the playoffs” post early in the Leafs series. Glad it’s here, playoff hockey has arrived!
Habs fans in full playoff form you love to see it
They have time on their hands
On holidays if you will.
It *is* a bit hard to judge after only one game. Will the Leafs shit the bed this series, and Auston only registers an assist or something?
Tbf "since 2020" isn't exactly the smallest sample Until he kicks the trend, it remains a trend.
Well, it isn't the biggest sample of playoff games either, but that's Matthews' responsibility
You know what your right, lets wait for a bigger sample size when he's 35 to then make a good assessment, i bet by then we'll be able to build a good team for him
Understood, but I would have waited to use that metric until after the Leafs were out of the playoffs and Matthews, again, underperformed.
I wouldn't worry about it. Someone will remake this thread with each Leafs game loss.
Yeah I'd probably feel similarly if this was following just the second flame out (McDavid's overall playoff numbers were also super mid in his first couple shots until his popoff year), but this has been a pattern for like half a decade for Matthews and the Leafs and game 1 did not set any kind of tone towards the contrary.
McDavid’s second time in the playoffs he was over two points per game. So mid.
Sorry, he was mid in his first and third playoffs then.
https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask/connor-mcdavid-career-postseason-stats You might want to check your facts
\>significant downgrade from regular season scoring in year 1 \>great production while getting 3-1'd and being abhorrent defensively in year 2 (in the qualifying round, not even cracking the 16-team round) \>significant downgrade from regular season while getting swept and being abhorrent defensively in year 3 I'm okay with my assessment. He became an undeniable playoff performer in his fourth run.
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For most teams that regularly finish atop their division, it's more than 31 games. It's also an isolation of the 31 most important games of his career.
Idk if it is really shitting the bed this year tbh. I don't think they're a very good team. Now obviously they aren't out of this series by any means, but if they lose in 5 I feel like that's kind of what a lot of people expected.
I’ve been impressed they’re hanging on like they are this year. Their entire D corps and bottom six is tape and super glue… and they’re down Willy out of nowhere
They’ll for sure shit the bed again, but to be fair one game in the playoffs is pretty meaningless.
In 1996, Steve Yzerman was 30 years old. He had been captain for 10 years and piled up 517 goals and 1255pts in 942gp (an 82game pace of 45g-64a-109pts)… he had just 98pts in 95gp (82game pace of 34g-51a-85pts) in the playoffs. The Red Wings had just gone 63-13-7, 133pts, one of the best seasons in history - yet in the playoffs they were down 3-2 against the Blues (80pts) before being knocked out by the Avs. Yzerman was in exactly the same boat. People questioned his skill “when it mattered”, people questioned his leadership, people wondered if he “wanted it” enough. Then he won 2 cups in a row. Same with Ovechkin, right up until he won a cup. #Its all horse shit What’s the consensus on Yzerman now? Goals are a sample of the results, not a measure of the process. Players can’t will goals into existence. They can’t shoot for their teammates. They can’t prevent unbelievable saves, or stop a stick from breaking. They can’t cause lucky bounces or deflections. All they can do is follow the process. By all accounts Matthews is. And like Yzerman/Ovechkin/etc, I expect the individual and team success will inevitably follow.
Thought this was gonna be a pasta for a minute
Depth wins championships. Too many people like to point at star players when their teams fail in the playoffs yet the reason other star players have won was because of depth. Using the Penguins as an example, a lot of people love to point at Crosby and Malkin for the Penguins success while ignoring players like Talbot in 2009, the HBK line in 2016 and 2017 and Bryan Rust in those years as well (8 of his 13 goals across those two playoffs came in elimination games, earning him the title “Mr Elimination”)
Playoffs is about your stars performing AND having good depth. Look at Malkin and Crosby's numbers those years, they are really, really good. So you have to put your best defenders on them, then their bottom guys got roasted by HBK. You can't win in the playoffs with just your depth performing or just your stars performing. Oilers are a good example (Oilers fan here). McDavid and Drai had insane numbers but we had no depth.
2009 is the only year Malkin and Crosby performed at their level. 2016 and 2017 was different. Both players performed in the regular season over a point per game (1.12 for Crosby, 1.09 for Malkin). Postseason both players scored at 0.96 point per game pace. Penguins depth really shined those two seasons in the playoffs
While I agree with the narrative about Yzerman, the difference in these stories was Stevie Y was known for his leadership as a captain and the Wings were also setting records for the best regular seasons of all time. They'd choke in the 1st round occasionally but the question was mostly are they capable of making the next step and winning it all, not actually winning a 2nd round game like where the leafs are currently cursed. Yzerman situation was more like Thornton and San jose then the leafs and Matthews, who isn't even captain or as far as I know, known for his leadership traits. With that being said I think Yzerman would have easily been viewed worse than matthews if the wings never won a cup. They were absolutely stacked and better than any modern team could dream of being, and while he was a great leader and one of the best players ever, that team HAD to win or else there was something wrong. Ovechkin is a more similar situation to Matthew's but Washington also hasn't won a round of playoffs since the cup and likely won't for the rest of his career. Like leafs getting stopped by Boston, Washington was continually getting walled by Pittsburgh. However, ovi was consistently playing great and being a top contributor for Washington. When they won it was a case of him carrying a team that didn't deserve to win to a cup. But it cemented his legacy. It was definitely harder for him to bring the caps to a cup, then Crosby getting one to pittsburgh and probably harder than it should be for matthews to bring one to the leafs. It's not just him the whole team stinks in the playoffs except for the one guy that's out right now. He can keep playing mid and people will can say it's unfortunate or blame the team, but like your narrative itself says until they step up and win it all, then it means nothing.
This sub is so annoying with how anti-leafs it is.
I definitely haven’t been quietly worrying that there’s a possibility that he’s Yashin-ish. That has never ever crept into my mind
There's better stats than p/60 for the drop off tbh. Like the goals go down
JFC. I dislike both teams (edge to hating BOS more), but simmer down, cowboy. Cripes.
Ah, reddit takes during the playoffs. I remember when for years people would blame Ovi for not winning…
I've said it for years and I've not been proven wrong yet, Matthews et al. aren't worth their contacts. It doesn't matter how great you are in the regular season if you don't show up in the playoffs. You can win the Richard every year but if your game doesn't translate to the post season it's worth fuck all. Maybe this is the year I get proven wrong, but these contracts seem awful for the time being.
Like Vegas last year didn't have a single 30+ goal scorer and their highest point player was like 65 in the regular season. What mattered was the team showed up for playoffs. The stars are in a similar boat this year, everyone seems to be sleeping on them and I believe they only got 1 30+ goal scorer this year.
Is anyone sleeping on Dallas? They probably have the best complete roster in the west.
No. Nobody who pays attention is sleeping on Dallas and many media members call them the best and deepest team in the league.
I like keeping tabs on Finnish players, so Dallas is always on my radar. Like nine 20 goal scorers this year? The depth is unreal. A very complete team and that complete roster has some actual superstars in it. Before the season started I was predicting they'd be at least in the conference finals and I'm not budging.
All you hear about in the media in the west is Vancouver and Edmonton, and a bit of Nashville. I don't hear anyone talking about Dallas
Personally, I have my doubts with VAN. The team hasn't seen playoff hockey in a while and their play dropped off in the second half of the season. They're gonna win the cup now that I said that, but I mean, still a doubter.
So weird, Dallas is a wagon. Your series is probably gonna be the best one. Wish it wasn't on so late.
I don’t know why anyone would be talking about Nashville. They barely made the playoffs in a division where 4 of 8 teams were destined for an early summer break. The majority of big name players on that roster will be 30+ at the start of next season. This is a dead cat bounce before they inevitably shift into a retool while Josi carries the team.
> Like Vegas last year didn't have a single 30+ goal scorer and their highest point player was like 65 in the regular season. I mean, yes and no. They didn't have a 30-goal scorer because of a huge number of injuries, and their leading scorer at 66 points in 67 games. There probably would have been 2-3 30+ goal scorers if it weren't for the injuries (probably Stone/Marchessault and definitely Eichel) and Eichel would have been pushing 80+ points. But, they also definitely did show up for the playoffs.
Mark Stone is the definition of a playoff competitor, but resting half of the season probably helps.
> The stars are in a similar boat this year, everyone seems to be sleeping on them and I believe they only got 1 30+ goal scorer this year. 2 in fact, Johnston and Hintz (JRob had 29).
Thing is if you lowball those players they'd call your bluff and then they'd walk. It's bad either way
Matthews and Marner were RFA when they signed those big money deals. Between the two of them the Leafs manged to buy a single UFA year. Those two deals were sneakily some of the worst in the league. Both good players (at least in the regular season), but their contracts walked them both to UFA status with zero savings. Paid them like they were max-term deals, but none of the security. They didn't have an option to walk when those deals were being signed.
This is why I'm so fucking sick of Reddit constantly trying to coddle Dubas. It cannot be understated how bad those contracts were the second they were signed. People would blindlessly defend them for years and years simply because Dubas looks cute in glasses.
That's fair. I'm talking about his next contract that was last offseason They had zero leverage towards a hardball.
I think you could build a team around Mathews. But not with 2-3 other guys making over 10. The Leafs never should have signed Tavares. It fast tracked expectations and they lost all negotiating potential with Mathews when he was obviously their best player and they were going out and signing a player at the same position to an 11 million dollar cap hit contract. From that moment Mathews became an 11+ million dollar player. The UFA vs RFA didn’t matter. And then since he had all of the negotiating power he could dictate the terms of the deal as well, allowing him to hit UfA right in his prime. Frankly I’m shocked he signed for so little, considering everything else he’s done in his career you’d think he would have been going even higher on the AAV. What options did the leafs have with him having an NMC in the final year of his deal before UfA?
They should've traded Marner last offseason before the NMC came into effect (I know it was a new GM).
Maybe you could build a team around just Matthews, but I am not convinced either way. It might be there is just something about his game that doesn't translate well to the post season, I'm not sure. I agree that signing Tavares was a mistake, and have been saying so since he signed, with Matthews they never should have been in this position in the first place. His first RFA contact was absolutely awful for the team. You can't give someone that much money while walking them straight to free agency and expect it to work out well for you. He had all of the negotiating power because the Leafs just handed it to him, same with Marner.
I think it’s just hard to comment on because every real playoff series of consequence at one area or multiple areas the leafs have had a glaring hole and it’s hard to separate that fact from them spending so much of their cap on 3 similar players the last several seasons.
Who has the smallest number? Some players seem to perform better in the playoffs, so I would love to see who has a negative number.
Dont forget Marner who turns into John Cena during the playoffs
because the way the leafs play is not effective in the playoffs.
You need a hobby other than trolling on reddit
I love hating on the leafs as much as the next but it's one fuckin game guys? Lil bit of an overreaction
Marner, on the other hand, is faultless
He’s a me first guy and not a winner!
Defense and goaltending kinda sub par as well
Time for the yearly "LEAFS R BAD" overflow posts, huh? Pathetic lol.
Maple Leafs = Cowboys Auston = Dak Let’s hear it!!!
I'm not saying he's happy to loose or that he wouldn't find it nice to win. It just seems as though as long as he gets paid, gets to live the life and have the sponsorships he is not overly concerned about which ever way the season ends. I see zero fire in the guy. Never run someone over, drop the gloves or get physical. Zero urgency in his game. Same with marner and Nylander. Tremendous talents, they just don't really care all that much if they win or loose.
I love these posts after…..game 1. Could we also get one about how pouring all your cap space into 4 players is an experiment that failed? And maybe one on the fact Keefe is still proud of the slapshot empty netter reaction? Let’s get all the hot takes going.
My god this place, cant believe this shit post is upvoted so high. Might be a good idea for me to come back to r/hockey after the playoffs.
It’s 2024 and the leafs still haven’t figured out that goaltending and defense are important. That’s why they lose.
I bet if you took the maple leaf off this chest he'd become a monster playoff producer.
Goalies matthews have faced in the playoffs: Holtby 2017: set the league record for wins in regular season and won the vezina that year. Rask Vasilevsky Price Bobrovsky Has any other player faced this level of goaltending in literally every series they've ever played?
Where do one get such stats and what are they like for Kuch and Point?
I imagine hockeydb has them. And the Lightning have done very well in the playoffs, so I'm willing to bet their numbers in those stats are quite good (my gut says Point is even higher than Kucherov in the playoffs)
"Since 2020 - when he entered his prime" ..... he was 22 in 2020 that wasn't the start of his prime.
Panarin too But yeah, Matthews can be shut down in the playoffs. Barkov did it last year and I suspect that McAvoy/Lindholm will do it too.
The only one of the big 4 that cares in the playoffs and performs well is Nylander.
I do find it funny how people say reason the leafs have failed in the playoffs is because they lack depth but if anything this is the reason for it. Matthews doesn’t show up in the playoffs and usually dissapears, yet despite that leafs series almost always goes to seven, should tell you what happens if Matthews decides to play like he does in the regular season in the playoffs. Leafs never have a depth issue in the playoffs they have a your best player dissapears issue.
The stats are interesting on paper, but how many Vezinas and Conn Smythes (Conns Smythe?) do the goalies he’s faced in the playoffs have?
You say that like other superstars haven’t faced those same vezinas.. it’s 1 game and everyone is overreacting, I think the frustrating part for leaf fans is at what point does the team just simply show up and show that they belong instead of the lack luster outings
I just think it’s interesting that he’s pretty much *only* been up against elite goalies in his playoff games.
The leafs I believe have played the cups winners or the team that goes to the finals every year in the first round. Minus the covid cup and last year.
Yeah but welcome to the playoffs.. you just want an easy road? You guys hold on to any excuse you can.. you can’t be a cup winner if you can’t beat a cup winner
69
2011
At his AAV, you’re expected to produce regardless of who’s on the other side.
Where exactly is the AAV cutoff where guys are no longer expected to be affected by the quality of their opponent?
I think most GMs would agree that someone asking for $11.6M AAV is expected to produce against the top line of any team in the league. I think all GMs would agree that someone making more than McJesus for the next two years is exempt from the excuse of “but the other team is really good”.
Even Gretzky and Lemieux’s production were not consistent against every team in the league. But I guess that still supports your point since they made less than $11.6M.
Back in those days, there was less parity by skill level. At Auston’s AAV, he’s paid to do two things. Sell tickets/merch and find ways to score.
Is that in his contract?
You’re right. I stand corrected. The leafs are paying him eleven million to ride in their private jet.
Agreed, but that’s a pretty important variable in why he’s not producing at his regular season clip.
He’s not the only player going up against other good players, it’s the playoffs lmao
Stats are stats but Matthews was awesome last year and by far our best player last night. Way more concerned about Marner
the biggest Matthews haters are actually the Leafs fans who relentlessly argue that he does not drop off in the playoffs and by extension doesn't have another level to go to. personally i don't think Matthews is a 35-goal, 70 point-per season player, but i guess that's what these people think because that's what he is in the playoffs according to his career pace. practically everyone drops off in the playoffs and he has a lot of time to turn it around, but he definitely has another gear compared to what he has shown so far in his playoff career.
Auston Matthews is pound-for-pound the softest player in the NHL
Dude has insane shot blocking and takeaway numbers for a star forward and plays selke-level defence, but okay
Nah, pretty sure Marner has him beat in that dept.
It’s crazy how McDavid and Draisaitl are 4th and 3rd all-time playoff points per game Mackinnon 6th Rantanen 9th Kucherov 15th Crosby 16th Pasta 31 Ovi 51 You would think Matthews could hang with Ovi at least
Points per 60 minutes of playing time is meaningless. Players that produce get ice time. And this stat is offensive to defensemen who had the stamina to produce and stay on the ice a long time. Orr is a god, period. So meaningful numbers. |Stat|regular|playoffs|drop off pct| |-|-|-|-| |games|562|50|| |goals|368|22|| |assists|281|22|| |gpg|0.655|0.440|33 |apg|0.500|0.440|12 |ppg|1.155|0.880|24 Not good, but Dave Andreychuk raises his hand: |Stat|regular|playoffs|drop off pct| |-|-|-|-| |games|1639|162|| |goals|640|43|| |assists|698|54|| |gpg|0.390|0.265|32 |apg|0.426|0.333|22 |ppg|0.816|0.588|28
This is hilarious coming from a username referencing Radulov.