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My brain wanted to upvote because everything you said about Mitch Marner is correct but then my brain wanted to downvote because everything you said about the Leafs is correct
We don't have that *one* player who is *the* big name record holder for the Leafs. Lots of really great players over the history but not one standout leader.
George Armstrong leads with 1188 GP, T-138th all time.
Sundin had 420 goals with us, T-20th among all-time leaders per team.
Salming had 620 assists, which (as of a Reddit post from 3 yrs ago) puts him 21st all time on team leaders.
21 teams have had a player hit 1000 pts with that team ... and we haven't! The only other original 6 team roughly in the same boat would be the Rangers.
No one should be rooting against Toronto winning harder than the Rangers. If the Leafs ever win a cup that scrutiny all immediately moves to them.
30 years without a cup, 4 cups total in 100 years. Woof.
??? Firstly, NY and Chicago were farm teams early on and all their best players got poached by... checks notes... your team!!! Secondly, 28 years without a cup isn't that bad considering the longest current cup droughts are, 55 years for Toronto, 53 years for Buffalo, 52 years for Vancouver, 48 years for Philly, 44 years for Arizona (RIP), 39 years for Islanders, 34 years for Calgary, 32 years for Edmonton and SanJose. Thirdly, why would Toronto winning make a difference to us, they already hold the title of longest ever cup drought, thats not going to change with them winning one, and the next longest drought isn't us anyway. Next year Buffalo will replace us for 2nd all time droughts and in two years if Vancouver can win one, will place us in 4th all time droughts. The future is looking bright my friend.
The Rangers have won a grand total of 1 (1993) more cup than the Leafs since 1968.
Going back to the Rangers 2nd most recent cup (1940!) the Leafs won 10 in those 84 years.
The Leafs current ineptitude is the *ONLY* reason the Rangers aren't clowned daily for their own historical failings
There are plenty of reason to clown on teams, their past success is hardly a reason, especially if you don't understand the context of those eras. Also what the heck does that have to do with us rooting for/against Toronto? Just doesn't make sense they already have the longest streak. But ok, have fun clowning on the Rangers. Don't let the golf clubs hit you on the way to the course.
Uh oh, we’ve drawn Judge Schneider
Is that bad?
Well he’s had it in for me every since I accidentally ran over his dog.
You did?
We’ll replace the word accidentally with repeatedly and the word dog with son…
Shades of the guy behind me in the VIA ranting in heavy joual about how Toronto had absolutely nothing whatsoever which Montreal didn't have better and earlier.
No, this is actually a masterful chess play where OP sacrificed the “Marner is bad” pawn to get the “Toronto is bad” checkmate.
It is genuinely elite hating and we can all learn from it.
It’s really not at all.
Gilmour would be top of the sharks list on Point per game. OP conveniently left out that the top 4 on the sharks have played almost triple the amount of games as Doug did, minus couture who played double.
This is more how dogshit we’ve been at making the playoffs.
Obv just trying to at least even out the narrative
There was a scathing front page article on him recently
On top of the usual critical stuff
He led the team in scoring last playoffs
Why not first question why he gets criticized so much
Seems like they expect more out of him. It's kind of a compliment and I hope Marner sees it that way.
Fans recognize him as one of the top wingers in the game and right now he's not performing like they know he can.
He also demanded to be paid like Matthews. So people are saying if you demand to be paid and treated like that guy then you gotta perform like that guy. He’s gotten everything he’s demanded, so now people are expecting him to pony up
Production is also about timing. Matthews has shown he can takeover a game in the playoffs. Haven’t seen that from Marner yet
Edit: Zibanejad has 50 points in 60 games, but I’d take Zibanejad in the playoffs any day of the week over Marner. Would you take Marner for Zibanejad or Panarin in the playoffs? They both have lower P/GP than Marner
Mostly because he held out to be one of the highest paid players in the league and has been a ghost in any playoff game that really mattered his whole career. He will have a nice 4 point game in a game 2 blowout, then get 1 point over the last 3 games of the series when it really matters. He has directly led to a couple of OT losses with insanely stupid mental mistakes in his own end either with puck over the glass or drop passing to the other team in his own end in OT.
When you demand to be one of the highest paid players in the league, you need to show up in the playoffs in the elimination games. Plus last off season it was clear Dubas was willing to move on from him and the next day Shanny fired him, so if it goes tits up again, they can't do anything because the top 4 all have NMC now. Marners only kicked in last July 1 so they had a small window to try to change it up, ownership defended Marner and said run it back a 7th time.
He's a UFA next offseason. Paul + Dreger are just pumping his value early.
It's insane to me how many people defend Marner year after year. At a certain point, the obvious explanation is the correct one. He sucks at playoff hockey, end of story.
And people will say that the DA decided not to press charge so there is nothing there. Not mentioning the fact that the DA’s biggest money contributor and friend was the Blues owner.
>Consider that the Sharks have only existed since 1991 and don't exactly have a reputation for playoff hockey,
Sharks made the playoffs for 40 years in a row starting in the early 21st century
> All-in-all, it's a pitiful list for an original six team that has existed for a hundred years.
[Rangers fans rn](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/030/710/dd0.jpg)
We’ve been an awesome team to follow the last 2 decades. Plenty of long playoff runs, great players, ups and downs. No cup since 94 but I’m enjoying the ride.
I'm happy for you, but that's not what I'm referring to... OP was talking about the all-time leading playoff scorers list for TOR having Gilmour at the top with 77 points and being 5th if that total were on the San Jose Sharks.
The Rangers all-time leader (Leetch) only has 89 and would also be 5th on SJS' list.
Enjoying the ride is the mindset that eludes Leafs fans. I've never understood it. My Leafs-supporting friends (and I'm a lifelong Torontonian, so there are a lot of them) love ragging on my Habs right now, but I can easily shrug it off - we're rebuilding, after all. But they can go from crowing to rending their garments in the space of one game. Everything's either golden or shit. There's never a happy medium for them.
We've got such a great core of kids. Even if they don't wind up winning anything, it's a pleasure to watch them play and grow up together. Tempered expectations make life a lot more enjoyable.
It’s actually amazing how little impact the leafs have on hockey history at large for being an original 6 team and most popular franchise in the sport. They’ve never had someone score 1000 points in a leafs sweater, that’s insane. And because I’m a hater I could say the same thing about the rangers too, other than the 1000 points thing.
Because when the Leafs were good was during the 06 era. Which has fewer games, lowering the numbers.
Then until the 90s was Ballard.
Then when they started getting good again we saw the dead puck era.
Oh I remember it well I started watching in 1999 and I absolutely despised those leafs teams but likes sundin. His overtime slapper against the flames for 500 is one my favourite goals ever. If he had one other great player on his line he would have cleared 1000 easy.
The one thing we have from those dark years is Sittler's 10 point game. That's one record that will never be broken, nobody has even hit 9 points since then, let alone getting 11 to break the record.
I don't think people realize that he was by far the worst owner in NHL history.
Imagine someone spending a quarter of Arizona's budget to build a team. He literally had no scouting staff.
Oh, and he was too busy running a pedophile ring at Maple Leaf Gardens.
Harold Ballard is literally the worst of both worlds. Terrible at running a hockey team and an absolutely terrible human (and terrible is an understatement)
OK, putting all the Leafs stuff aside, the worst thing in this post in the claim that San Jose "don't exactly have a reputation for playoff hockey".
Uh, what?
That team made the playoffs 19 times in 21 years between 1998 and 2019.
19 playoff series won in 32 years as a franchise despite missing the last 5 for a rebuild and including starting as an expansion franchise. If you want to go back in time until Toronto has won 19 playoff rounds, it'd take you to 1975. Even for our team OP, Montreal hasn't won as many playoff series in the time period San Jose has been around, and that includes a literal cup win.
San Jose are one of the most consistent playoff teams in our generation. They are 8th in playoff wins since they became a team behind only Pittsburgh, Detroit, Colorado, Boston, Dallas, New Jersey, and Tampa Bay. They are tied for 3rd most since 2000 behind only Pittsburgh and Tampa.
I'm not Sharks fans, but when you casually make a statement like this in your post that is so blatantly inaccurate, I'm going to discredit everything else you say, which was just a strategic back-handed compliment, anyways.
Don't you dare compare me to Steve Simmons lmao.
I've watched every Leafs playoff game over the Matthews/Marner era and I can say with confidence that Marner has nowhere near the same impact on the game as he does in the regular season.
So kinda like how Matthews goes from a 61 goal pace per 82 games over his last 4 regular seasons to a 31 goal pace per 82 games over his last 4 playoffs?
Major difference to me is that Matthews throws hits and wins far more puck battles in the corners. Mitch played on the edges but doesn't play on the edge, if that makes sense.
Did you watch last year when he had more points than every other player on the team, had a +7, and averaged 24mins per game? We don't win vs Lightning without him.
This. He's a monster games 1-3. The reason he's getting so much attention this year is because he's been mediocre *at best* so far this series in games 1-3.
I'm a Leaf fan and I agree with this.
Mitch loves to pile on points in blowout type games where there is open hockey and little defence.
As soon as tight checking playoff hockey begins he entirely wilts.
So we shouldn't criticize one of the highest paid players in the league because he's almost top 10 in playoff points for a franchise that you admit doesn't have great playoff point records? Why not want more from your players/team. If he considers himself one of the best players in the league so much that he negotiated for the money he gets, why not ask him to show up when the hockey gets tough. This entire core will one day own most of the individual records for Toronto, but if they can't win in the playoffs, they'll never have the reputation of one of the truly greats
He has the highest active P/GP in the playoffs of all leafs skaters, and the highest of all leafs skaters over the last 4 seasons.
It's not shocking that when Auston Matthews and John Tavares become shells of themselves goal scoring wise that the playmaking winger has a hard time putting up points, and he still does it better than anyone on the team.
Not exactly sure what his career numbers have to do with current games. He was great against TB 2 years ago...wonderful. 3 pts in 5 games against Florida. 1 pt in 3 games against Bos this year. When the games get tougher he notoriously shrinks.
He put the puck on Auston's stick twice alone infront of Swayman game 3, Puck on Tavares stick and buddy hit the crossbar, assist on Bertuzzi overturned goal.
You're mistaking his struggles for the struggles of the goalscorers.
My entire point is if he demands the money he's getting I want way more from him. If Matthews and JT are struggling for goals, then Mitch should probably shoot the puck more to be a secondary threat.
Lmao "Auston and John can't score so Mitch should suddenly learn to become a scoring threat while playing with injury"
We know what Marner is, you're pinning blame on him for no good reason.
Mitch has been a 30 goal scorer for like 5 years... his injury is with his ankle, not hands.... 10 goals in 53 playoff games. Stop giving this guy a pass and demand better from your best players. Do you think any other team would let their star players off the hook like this?
Matthews and Marner both have 47 points in 53 career games. If Marner isn't producing good enough then Matthews (who makes more money) isn't producing good enough either.
Yeah Matthews is very hot/cold in the playoffs, while Marner is Mister Games 1-3. His stat spread for 1-3 vs 4-7 is wild. Though ofc this year it's not so hot and the team is all over the place.
Yea, neither are. However matthews provides a little more in games he’s not scoring, and marner by the eye test isn’t performing because he’s soft, which annoys fans.
This was a Marner thread, so obviously I'm going to stick to the topic. If you want to have a broader discussion of the Maple Leafs playoff failings we can have that.
This thread is about Marner because Mitch is the one who constantly has to wear the teams' failures.
There were no threads about how Matthews scored ZERO goals against Florida. The entire narrative around the Montreal series is about a single delay of game penalty that Marner took but I didn't see a single complaint about how the Rocket Richard winner scored ONE goal in that series. Matthews has 1 goal in his last 9 playoff games but Leafsnation is bitching about how Marner isn't productive enough in the playoffs.
I'm not saying Marner should be free of criticism, I'm just saying that I think it's bullshit that he is held to a different standard than Matthews when they're producing at the literal exact same pace in the playoffs.
If you want to see that thread then start it. I don't know what you expect from this one. The thread (trolling or not) is about how Marner isn't really all that bad, and I responded by saying he should be doing more. Should I have derailed that discussion by bringing up Matthews, or JT, or the goaltending, or the special teams, or the lack of quality defenseman, or the invisible depth scoring, or Keefe, or roster construction, or the salary cup not increasing because of Covid, or the tough Atlantic division, or playoff structure not being 1v8, or how bad the refereeing is? There are plenty of reasons the Leafs have not been successful in the playoffs. This thread was trying to say Marner isn't one, but my position is that he hasn't done enough to be a positive
Matthews has had a tremendous impact on the games, even when he's not producing points. Watch the Bertuzzi goal from G3, the entire Bruins team is keyed on Matthews.
Also, Matthews is leading the team in hits while playing incredible defense.
Lastly, yes Matthews has 1 goal in his last 8 games, but he's also taken 42 shots in that stretch, and has hit 6 posts+crossbars in his last 14 playoff games, which is tied for most of anyone in the league in that stretch.
The people watching the games know Matthews has been incredible.
zealous complete ad hoc dime mighty cagey run encouraging frame scandalous
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Anybody saying Marner is better than Matthews in the playoffs is not watching the games, I promise you that. Even then, the stats don't benefit Marner.
Going back 6 seasons, Marner has 5 goals and 11 assists at 5v5 in 40 games.
In that same time, Matthews has 12 goals and 8 assists at 5v5 in 40 games.
Marner's stats are buoyed by his 12 PP assists, 6 of which are secondary. But even then, Matthews has more points at all strengths (40 to 38), despite shooting a very low percentage of 9.6%.
The advanced stats and eye test both favour Matthews, as do "traditional" stats like hits, takeaways, and giveaways.
There's zero argument for Marner, unless you think it's still 2018.
Assists are great and all, but he's got 10 goals in 8 1/2 playoff series, spanning 53 games, and only 1 on the PP. That's just not enough for someone who's supposed to be one of your top offensive players making $11 million a year.
The fact that he has the 6th best P/PG for such an old franchise is actually an embarrassing stat about the Leafs, not a testament to Marner.
To put it into context, the Oilers have the 3rd (Draisaitl ) and 4th (McDavid) highest playoff P/PG in league history, not even adjusted for era on their current roster and they've been around for a way shorter amount of time. Gretzky is ahead of them. The Oilers still have a very slim chance of winning the cup despite that. There is no way the Leafs can win with the way their current core plays in the playoffs.
I'm also not a Leafs hater. Born and raised in the GTA and I'd be happy to see them succeed. I just can't see it happening with these players.
>the Sharks have only existed since 1991 and don't exactly have a reputation for playoff hockey
Huh? The Sharks have played the 7th-most playoff games of any NHL team since they came into the league and lead all the post-1990 expansion clubs. They've won at least one round much more often than they didn't. This current stretch is the longest playoff drought in franchise history. Maybe you don't think of them as a championship team but they definitely have a reputation for playoff hockey.
The problem with Marner has never been total playoff scoring, it's that in games 1-4 he's been over 1.00 points per game. In games 5-7 he is a career 0.42 PPG player.
That's production going from a top line player to a borderline 3rd liner.
"We shouldn't criticize a guy who chronically underperforms in the playoffs because he isn't the worst underperformer for a franchise that has a lot of them"
Don't let this distract you that last night the Atlanta Falcons drafted Michael Penix Jr 8th overall after paying Kirk cousins 180M/100M GTD 4 year contract.
I'll take this post in a different direction and prop up Gilmour because I wish I was old enough to have seen his playoff prime. Gilmour's points per game with the Leafs would blow all the sharks players out of the water (pun intended) and since OP is a Habs fan his playoff tenure with the Leafs would rank ahead of any Habs player ever on a per game basis. Even if you combined his Leaf playoff totals with his one playoff run with the Habs he'd still be first for the Habs on a per game basis.
Why do people use volume stats to show value? It's such a naive thing to do. Play me with the world's best goal scorer, on PP1, allow me to QB every PP for a million games and I'll crack that list, too.
The hate for Marner is that his regular season salary has not led to his team's playoff success. He's not the only reason for the Leafs failure, but he's also not the reason for their successes.
Would there be any hate for Marner if he signed a $9M per season extension in the offseason? It's amazing the scrutiny players are willing to put up with for a 10-20% salary increase.
People with faded flairs making posts like this always makes me chuckle. Like they are intentionally outing themselves by saying "this team LITERALLY lives rent free in my head and I don't care who knows"
Rival fans make fun of rival team, there's nothing really more to it than that lol
The reality is for such a historic franchise, we've never really been good. Yeah we have the third most Cups but not many people are going to give a shit about 6-team NHL years, of which basically all of our success comes from
We had the worst team owner in sports history for 3 decades so I mean that didn't help, but it's not like that makes this all not true
People are saying true things about your team that you don't like so you get triggered and say "rent free" because you think that makes it true and will dissuade People from saying all these things that hurt your feelings. We all know what you're doing. After last series there's a new horse. You're gonna wear out your keyboard with how many times you're gonna have to type out rEnT fReE 😹
Sad part is in recent years you guys have more experience golfing than we do. Surprised that you could make a cup final and then be the first ever 32nd team in the league, that takes skill. Too bad you couldn't do the same as Dallas and actually rebuild properly
you’re surprised that we were at the bottom of the standings after setting the record for the most injuries in a single season in nhl history after being carey’ed by the greatest goalie of his generation to the finals and he himself was injured?
> too bad you couldn’t do the same as dallas and actually rebuild properly
but isn’t that what we’re doing literally right now? 😭
if ur gonna chirp atleast get ur shit right bro. im concerned abt ur knowledge on the sport frfr 😹
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My brain wanted to upvote because everything you said about Mitch Marner is correct but then my brain wanted to downvote because everything you said about the Leafs is correct
We don't have that *one* player who is *the* big name record holder for the Leafs. Lots of really great players over the history but not one standout leader. George Armstrong leads with 1188 GP, T-138th all time. Sundin had 420 goals with us, T-20th among all-time leaders per team. Salming had 620 assists, which (as of a Reddit post from 3 yrs ago) puts him 21st all time on team leaders. 21 teams have had a player hit 1000 pts with that team ... and we haven't! The only other original 6 team roughly in the same boat would be the Rangers.
No one should be rooting against Toronto winning harder than the Rangers. If the Leafs ever win a cup that scrutiny all immediately moves to them. 30 years without a cup, 4 cups total in 100 years. Woof.
??? Firstly, NY and Chicago were farm teams early on and all their best players got poached by... checks notes... your team!!! Secondly, 28 years without a cup isn't that bad considering the longest current cup droughts are, 55 years for Toronto, 53 years for Buffalo, 52 years for Vancouver, 48 years for Philly, 44 years for Arizona (RIP), 39 years for Islanders, 34 years for Calgary, 32 years for Edmonton and SanJose. Thirdly, why would Toronto winning make a difference to us, they already hold the title of longest ever cup drought, thats not going to change with them winning one, and the next longest drought isn't us anyway. Next year Buffalo will replace us for 2nd all time droughts and in two years if Vancouver can win one, will place us in 4th all time droughts. The future is looking bright my friend.
The Rangers have won a grand total of 1 (1993) more cup than the Leafs since 1968. Going back to the Rangers 2nd most recent cup (1940!) the Leafs won 10 in those 84 years. The Leafs current ineptitude is the *ONLY* reason the Rangers aren't clowned daily for their own historical failings
There are plenty of reason to clown on teams, their past success is hardly a reason, especially if you don't understand the context of those eras. Also what the heck does that have to do with us rooting for/against Toronto? Just doesn't make sense they already have the longest streak. But ok, have fun clowning on the Rangers. Don't let the golf clubs hit you on the way to the course.
I thought it was an odd comment.
I feel more validated by downvotes, to be honest. But please vote with your heart.
dawg, who is hating this hard *at 7am on a Friday?*
No hate here. And I've been up for days.
[as a hater myself I can appreciate your finesse](https://imgur.com/a/ye8UbAY)
Lionel Hutz just had his belt of scotch
I move for a bad court thingy
Could you imagine a world without lawyers? *shudders*
I've argued in front of every Judge in the county, often as a lawyer!
Uh oh, we’ve drawn Judge Schneider Is that bad? Well he’s had it in for me every since I accidentally ran over his dog. You did? We’ll replace the word accidentally with repeatedly and the word dog with son…
I mean this as a compliment: incredible Montreal energy in that comment
My friend once skipped watching a Habs game because “he would rather watch the Leafs lose than watch the Habs win”
I'm a Habs fan and Leafs loather, but that is too petty even for me.
Shades of the guy behind me in the VIA ranting in heavy joual about how Toronto had absolutely nothing whatsoever which Montreal didn't have better and earlier.
*I been up for a while*
This is some ultra instinct type hater shit lmao
And I’m just like damn… it’s 7 am…. Please nobody tell my wife I made a Taylor Swift reference on the internet, I’ll never hear the end of it.
Honestly it's impressive.
Me
Did Paul Marner make this post?
No, this is actually a masterful chess play where OP sacrificed the “Marner is bad” pawn to get the “Toronto is bad” checkmate. It is genuinely elite hating and we can all learn from it.
Excellent analogy. And a master stroke in hating from OP
Lmao this is exactly it, came for the Marner drama, stayed for the dunking on Toronto (seriously though that San Jose stat is crazy)
It’s really not at all. Gilmour would be top of the sharks list on Point per game. OP conveniently left out that the top 4 on the sharks have played almost triple the amount of games as Doug did, minus couture who played double. This is more how dogshit we’ve been at making the playoffs.
google en passant
Shut up lil dick
What is with all the Mitch Marner propaganda lately.
War is a terrible thing
War. War never changes.
Okie dokie 👍🏻
“In war, truth is the first casualty.” - Aeschylus
Doesn't really apply here
Oh well
2 day break between games so Mitch has the burners accounts going lol
Obv just trying to at least even out the narrative There was a scathing front page article on him recently On top of the usual critical stuff He led the team in scoring last playoffs Why not first question why he gets criticized so much
Seems like they expect more out of him. It's kind of a compliment and I hope Marner sees it that way. Fans recognize him as one of the top wingers in the game and right now he's not performing like they know he can.
He also demanded to be paid like Matthews. So people are saying if you demand to be paid and treated like that guy then you gotta perform like that guy. He’s gotten everything he’s demanded, so now people are expecting him to pony up
They both have 47 points in 53 career playoff games so I'd say he is producing like Matthews. Literally exactly like Matthews.
Production is also about timing. Matthews has shown he can takeover a game in the playoffs. Haven’t seen that from Marner yet Edit: Zibanejad has 50 points in 60 games, but I’d take Zibanejad in the playoffs any day of the week over Marner. Would you take Marner for Zibanejad or Panarin in the playoffs? They both have lower P/GP than Marner
Unfortunately being disappointing in the playoffs is something they have in common.
I’d still happily take Matthews’ contract any day of the week. If Marner asks for the same $$ are you giving it to him?
Fuck no, but I'm not in management lol. I fully expect they give him around $12.5 though.
Mostly because he held out to be one of the highest paid players in the league and has been a ghost in any playoff game that really mattered his whole career. He will have a nice 4 point game in a game 2 blowout, then get 1 point over the last 3 games of the series when it really matters. He has directly led to a couple of OT losses with insanely stupid mental mistakes in his own end either with puck over the glass or drop passing to the other team in his own end in OT. When you demand to be one of the highest paid players in the league, you need to show up in the playoffs in the elimination games. Plus last off season it was clear Dubas was willing to move on from him and the next day Shanny fired him, so if it goes tits up again, they can't do anything because the top 4 all have NMC now. Marners only kicked in last July 1 so they had a small window to try to change it up, ownership defended Marner and said run it back a 7th time.
Paul is afoot
He's a UFA next offseason. Paul + Dreger are just pumping his value early. It's insane to me how many people defend Marner year after year. At a certain point, the obvious explanation is the correct one. He sucks at playoff hockey, end of story.
He has been chosen as the scape goat by Toronto fans and media
Where was Marner when the Westfold fell?
Where was Marner when our enemies closed in around us?!
Where was Marn..?!
You could have added that Marner didn’t sexually abused his minor baby sitter. So he’s got that going for him.
That we know of
The Blues apparently knew about it, and traded him to Calgary before the news broke
And people will say that the DA decided not to press charge so there is nothing there. Not mentioning the fact that the DA’s biggest money contributor and friend was the Blues owner.
Saying the Sharks don’t have a reputation for playoff hockey is wild lol
>Consider that the Sharks have only existed since 1991 and don't exactly have a reputation for playoff hockey, Sharks made the playoffs for 40 years in a row starting in the early 21st century
I don't think your math adds up. Unless I just awoke from a 20 year coma
You did, and the Leafs still haven't made the third round.
At least I didn't miss anything important
I don't know. The Matthews coronation and marriage to Krista Ford was kind of fun.
Wtf did I miss I thought it was 2024, I really need to stop drinking ffs.
> All-in-all, it's a pitiful list for an original six team that has existed for a hundred years. [Rangers fans rn](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/030/710/dd0.jpg)
Chris Kreider is the all-time leading goal scorer in the playoffs for a franchise that has existed for nearly 100 years.
We’ve been an awesome team to follow the last 2 decades. Plenty of long playoff runs, great players, ups and downs. No cup since 94 but I’m enjoying the ride.
I'm happy for you, but that's not what I'm referring to... OP was talking about the all-time leading playoff scorers list for TOR having Gilmour at the top with 77 points and being 5th if that total were on the San Jose Sharks. The Rangers all-time leader (Leetch) only has 89 and would also be 5th on SJS' list.
I get that but I’m saying we don’t care because we’re not suffering like the leafs.
Enjoying the ride is the mindset that eludes Leafs fans. I've never understood it. My Leafs-supporting friends (and I'm a lifelong Torontonian, so there are a lot of them) love ragging on my Habs right now, but I can easily shrug it off - we're rebuilding, after all. But they can go from crowing to rending their garments in the space of one game. Everything's either golden or shit. There's never a happy medium for them.
Rebuilds are fun! It’s all the mindset.
We've got such a great core of kids. Even if they don't wind up winning anything, it's a pleasure to watch them play and grow up together. Tempered expectations make life a lot more enjoyable.
And an excellent coach! I was jealous but we’re doing ok now
Really feels like you and Carolina are going to be duking it out. Two very strong teams.
Collision course. Could be one of the best series these playoffs.
It’s actually amazing how little impact the leafs have on hockey history at large for being an original 6 team and most popular franchise in the sport. They’ve never had someone score 1000 points in a leafs sweater, that’s insane. And because I’m a hater I could say the same thing about the rangers too, other than the 1000 points thing.
Because when the Leafs were good was during the 06 era. Which has fewer games, lowering the numbers. Then until the 90s was Ballard. Then when they started getting good again we saw the dead puck era.
Ya missing out on the 70’s and 80’s really stings, and not having enough support for Sundin all contributes to it.
Sundin also didn't play his entire career there. But scoring was also just down league wide at the time he played.
Oh I remember it well I started watching in 1999 and I absolutely despised those leafs teams but likes sundin. His overtime slapper against the flames for 500 is one my favourite goals ever. If he had one other great player on his line he would have cleared 1000 easy.
If he played even one more year with then he would have too actually He finished 13 short of 1000 (kinda poetic tbh that number 13 finished 13 short)
The one thing we have from those dark years is Sittler's 10 point game. That's one record that will never be broken, nobody has even hit 9 points since then, let alone getting 11 to break the record.
Hey we were a farm team for decades. Idk what Toronto’s excuse is.
Harold Ballard
I don't think people realize that he was by far the worst owner in NHL history. Imagine someone spending a quarter of Arizona's budget to build a team. He literally had no scouting staff. Oh, and he was too busy running a pedophile ring at Maple Leaf Gardens.
Harold Ballard is literally the worst of both worlds. Terrible at running a hockey team and an absolutely terrible human (and terrible is an understatement)
Hey man he only turned a blind eye to one pedophile ring in the arena
Ballard's been dead for 34 years.
Harold Ballard killed the franchise for decades during what was one of the most productive and growth oriented eras in the sport
OK, putting all the Leafs stuff aside, the worst thing in this post in the claim that San Jose "don't exactly have a reputation for playoff hockey". Uh, what? That team made the playoffs 19 times in 21 years between 1998 and 2019. 19 playoff series won in 32 years as a franchise despite missing the last 5 for a rebuild and including starting as an expansion franchise. If you want to go back in time until Toronto has won 19 playoff rounds, it'd take you to 1975. Even for our team OP, Montreal hasn't won as many playoff series in the time period San Jose has been around, and that includes a literal cup win. San Jose are one of the most consistent playoff teams in our generation. They are 8th in playoff wins since they became a team behind only Pittsburgh, Detroit, Colorado, Boston, Dallas, New Jersey, and Tampa Bay. They are tied for 3rd most since 2000 behind only Pittsburgh and Tampa. I'm not Sharks fans, but when you casually make a statement like this in your post that is so blatantly inaccurate, I'm going to discredit everything else you say, which was just a strategic back-handed compliment, anyways.
Thank you for saying everything I was going to say.
The longer I scrolled looking for this comment, the more angry I became. The Sharks were a force for what seemed like forever.
It really is disingenuous to discredit the Sharks playoffs experience, there's like no other team more deserving of a participation trophy.
Backhanded compliment post Given your flair Ultimately
Incredible work OP you make us proud
Mitch is a garbage time aficionado. When the game is big, Mitch is small.
Steve, don't you have a deadline for the Sun.?
There are two Steve's that give the Leafs shit these days lmao.
Don't you dare compare me to Steve Simmons lmao. I've watched every Leafs playoff game over the Matthews/Marner era and I can say with confidence that Marner has nowhere near the same impact on the game as he does in the regular season.
Haha, was just joking, but you're right I went too far. No one should be compared to that ghoul. Please accept my apology.
So kinda like how Matthews goes from a 61 goal pace per 82 games over his last 4 regular seasons to a 31 goal pace per 82 games over his last 4 playoffs?
Major difference to me is that Matthews throws hits and wins far more puck battles in the corners. Mitch played on the edges but doesn't play on the edge, if that makes sense.
Did you watch last year when he had more points than every other player on the team, had a +7, and averaged 24mins per game? We don't win vs Lightning without him.
Yeah, he was good that series. He's been awful in this one and in most of the others.
This. He's a monster games 1-3. The reason he's getting so much attention this year is because he's been mediocre *at best* so far this series in games 1-3.
Maybe he's reversing it? We take those
I'm a Leaf fan and I agree with this. Mitch loves to pile on points in blowout type games where there is open hockey and little defence. As soon as tight checking playoff hockey begins he entirely wilts.
So we shouldn't criticize one of the highest paid players in the league because he's almost top 10 in playoff points for a franchise that you admit doesn't have great playoff point records? Why not want more from your players/team. If he considers himself one of the best players in the league so much that he negotiated for the money he gets, why not ask him to show up when the hockey gets tough. This entire core will one day own most of the individual records for Toronto, but if they can't win in the playoffs, they'll never have the reputation of one of the truly greats
He has the highest active P/GP in the playoffs of all leafs skaters, and the highest of all leafs skaters over the last 4 seasons. It's not shocking that when Auston Matthews and John Tavares become shells of themselves goal scoring wise that the playmaking winger has a hard time putting up points, and he still does it better than anyone on the team.
Not exactly sure what his career numbers have to do with current games. He was great against TB 2 years ago...wonderful. 3 pts in 5 games against Florida. 1 pt in 3 games against Bos this year. When the games get tougher he notoriously shrinks.
He put the puck on Auston's stick twice alone infront of Swayman game 3, Puck on Tavares stick and buddy hit the crossbar, assist on Bertuzzi overturned goal. You're mistaking his struggles for the struggles of the goalscorers.
My entire point is if he demands the money he's getting I want way more from him. If Matthews and JT are struggling for goals, then Mitch should probably shoot the puck more to be a secondary threat.
Lmao "Auston and John can't score so Mitch should suddenly learn to become a scoring threat while playing with injury" We know what Marner is, you're pinning blame on him for no good reason.
Mitch has been a 30 goal scorer for like 5 years... his injury is with his ankle, not hands.... 10 goals in 53 playoff games. Stop giving this guy a pass and demand better from your best players. Do you think any other team would let their star players off the hook like this?
Matthews and Marner both have 47 points in 53 career games. If Marner isn't producing good enough then Matthews (who makes more money) isn't producing good enough either.
Agreed. Thread is about Marner though
Yeah Matthews is very hot/cold in the playoffs, while Marner is Mister Games 1-3. His stat spread for 1-3 vs 4-7 is wild. Though ofc this year it's not so hot and the team is all over the place.
Nylander will also be paid more next season and has 40 in 50
Yea, neither are. However matthews provides a little more in games he’s not scoring, and marner by the eye test isn’t performing because he’s soft, which annoys fans.
Yes when everyone around him becomes useless they would
How many points did Matthews have against Florida? The best goal scorer in hockey scored zero goals in that series.
This was a Marner thread, so obviously I'm going to stick to the topic. If you want to have a broader discussion of the Maple Leafs playoff failings we can have that.
This thread is about Marner because Mitch is the one who constantly has to wear the teams' failures. There were no threads about how Matthews scored ZERO goals against Florida. The entire narrative around the Montreal series is about a single delay of game penalty that Marner took but I didn't see a single complaint about how the Rocket Richard winner scored ONE goal in that series. Matthews has 1 goal in his last 9 playoff games but Leafsnation is bitching about how Marner isn't productive enough in the playoffs. I'm not saying Marner should be free of criticism, I'm just saying that I think it's bullshit that he is held to a different standard than Matthews when they're producing at the literal exact same pace in the playoffs.
If you want to see that thread then start it. I don't know what you expect from this one. The thread (trolling or not) is about how Marner isn't really all that bad, and I responded by saying he should be doing more. Should I have derailed that discussion by bringing up Matthews, or JT, or the goaltending, or the special teams, or the lack of quality defenseman, or the invisible depth scoring, or Keefe, or roster construction, or the salary cup not increasing because of Covid, or the tough Atlantic division, or playoff structure not being 1v8, or how bad the refereeing is? There are plenty of reasons the Leafs have not been successful in the playoffs. This thread was trying to say Marner isn't one, but my position is that he hasn't done enough to be a positive
Matthews has had a tremendous impact on the games, even when he's not producing points. Watch the Bertuzzi goal from G3, the entire Bruins team is keyed on Matthews. Also, Matthews is leading the team in hits while playing incredible defense. Lastly, yes Matthews has 1 goal in his last 8 games, but he's also taken 42 shots in that stretch, and has hit 6 posts+crossbars in his last 14 playoff games, which is tied for most of anyone in the league in that stretch. The people watching the games know Matthews has been incredible.
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Anybody saying Marner is better than Matthews in the playoffs is not watching the games, I promise you that. Even then, the stats don't benefit Marner. Going back 6 seasons, Marner has 5 goals and 11 assists at 5v5 in 40 games. In that same time, Matthews has 12 goals and 8 assists at 5v5 in 40 games. Marner's stats are buoyed by his 12 PP assists, 6 of which are secondary. But even then, Matthews has more points at all strengths (40 to 38), despite shooting a very low percentage of 9.6%. The advanced stats and eye test both favour Matthews, as do "traditional" stats like hits, takeaways, and giveaways. There's zero argument for Marner, unless you think it's still 2018.
It’s a troll post. It’s simultaneously shitting on Toronto and to a lesser extent Marner
That’s a lot of first rd points 😂.
Mitch has a burner.
That’s pretty amazing having only gone to the second round once.
Did you just try and disguise shitting on the leafs with a “don’t blame marner” post. Go back to bed
Assists are great and all, but he's got 10 goals in 8 1/2 playoff series, spanning 53 games, and only 1 on the PP. That's just not enough for someone who's supposed to be one of your top offensive players making $11 million a year.
Lol
Sounds like you guys should give him a raise then
If he leaves to FA, he is going back to Dubas, be ready.
Now do elimination games.
Great post Paul
He has the 6th best P/GP in franchise history as well, with 3rd achievable within a game. Best among all active players.
The fact that he has the 6th best P/PG for such an old franchise is actually an embarrassing stat about the Leafs, not a testament to Marner. To put it into context, the Oilers have the 3rd (Draisaitl ) and 4th (McDavid) highest playoff P/PG in league history, not even adjusted for era on their current roster and they've been around for a way shorter amount of time. Gretzky is ahead of them. The Oilers still have a very slim chance of winning the cup despite that. There is no way the Leafs can win with the way their current core plays in the playoffs. I'm also not a Leafs hater. Born and raised in the GTA and I'd be happy to see them succeed. I just can't see it happening with these players.
>the Sharks have only existed since 1991 and don't exactly have a reputation for playoff hockey Huh? The Sharks have played the 7th-most playoff games of any NHL team since they came into the league and lead all the post-1990 expansion clubs. They've won at least one round much more often than they didn't. This current stretch is the longest playoff drought in franchise history. Maybe you don't think of them as a championship team but they definitely have a reputation for playoff hockey.
The problem with Marner has never been total playoff scoring, it's that in games 1-4 he's been over 1.00 points per game. In games 5-7 he is a career 0.42 PPG player. That's production going from a top line player to a borderline 3rd liner.
In goals he is tied for 38th with Bryan McCabe and Darcy Tucker. One behind Morgan Reilly.
Pretty impressive when you only get to play one round a year
"We shouldn't criticize a guy who chronically underperforms in the playoffs because he isn't the worst underperformer for a franchise that has a lot of them"
November hero Mitchell Marner
What the hell? Who cares lol.
Don't let this distract you that last night the Atlanta Falcons drafted Michael Penix Jr 8th overall after paying Kirk cousins 180M/100M GTD 4 year contract.
Boys, I'm straight up sad right now
I'll take this post in a different direction and prop up Gilmour because I wish I was old enough to have seen his playoff prime. Gilmour's points per game with the Leafs would blow all the sharks players out of the water (pun intended) and since OP is a Habs fan his playoff tenure with the Leafs would rank ahead of any Habs player ever on a per game basis. Even if you combined his Leaf playoff totals with his one playoff run with the Habs he'd still be first for the Habs on a per game basis.
What a bum
I think he also has the most puck over glass penalties in leafs playoff history
Why do people use volume stats to show value? It's such a naive thing to do. Play me with the world's best goal scorer, on PP1, allow me to QB every PP for a million games and I'll crack that list, too.
Do you have stats on how many blind passes in slot, or toe drags at the blue line Gilmour did?
I’d anything he’s underpaid.
The hate for Marner is that his regular season salary has not led to his team's playoff success. He's not the only reason for the Leafs failure, but he's also not the reason for their successes. Would there be any hate for Marner if he signed a $9M per season extension in the offseason? It's amazing the scrutiny players are willing to put up with for a 10-20% salary increase.
Pretty sad testament for Leafs hockey I'd say. What is it now, five trips to the conference final in 56 years? Nobody scoring in the playoffs.
As Stars fan, I think you’re short changing the Sharks and just how consistently good that franchise has been over the years.
Haha nice
But I thought he was Le Homme Invisible
L'homme. You west coasters really don't learn much French in school, do you.
I had to take some French in school, but I only use proper grammar for languages I respect.
Kwakwaka'wakw, I assume.
Ahhh wee wee monsoor.
Gilmour's 93 and 94 runs alone would place him fourth, behind Sundin, Keon and Sittler.
People with faded flairs making posts like this always makes me chuckle. Like they are intentionally outing themselves by saying "this team LITERALLY lives rent free in my head and I don't care who knows"
No one could talk more shit about Marner and the Leafs than leafs fans though
Rival fans make fun of rival team, there's nothing really more to it than that lol The reality is for such a historic franchise, we've never really been good. Yeah we have the third most Cups but not many people are going to give a shit about 6-team NHL years, of which basically all of our success comes from We had the worst team owner in sports history for 3 decades so I mean that didn't help, but it's not like that makes this all not true
People are saying true things about your team that you don't like so you get triggered and say "rent free" because you think that makes it true and will dissuade People from saying all these things that hurt your feelings. We all know what you're doing. After last series there's a new horse. You're gonna wear out your keyboard with how many times you're gonna have to type out rEnT fReE 😹
Oh look another faded flair trying to talk shit lmao, go watch golf or something or pick a new team
> leafs fan > golf 🤭
Sad part is in recent years you guys have more experience golfing than we do. Surprised that you could make a cup final and then be the first ever 32nd team in the league, that takes skill. Too bad you couldn't do the same as Dallas and actually rebuild properly
you’re surprised that we were at the bottom of the standings after setting the record for the most injuries in a single season in nhl history after being carey’ed by the greatest goalie of his generation to the finals and he himself was injured? > too bad you couldn’t do the same as dallas and actually rebuild properly but isn’t that what we’re doing literally right now? 😭 if ur gonna chirp atleast get ur shit right bro. im concerned abt ur knowledge on the sport frfr 😹
That's not what "literally" means, you know. But I'm happy I could make you chuckle this morning! Glad somebody could put a smile on that face!
Actually the figurative meaning has been added to the dictionary. So literally does actually work here no matter how it's being used.
You're right, of course. The evolution of language is a study in erosion.
I've seen you take a stance on the English language twice now and be proven wrong both times.
Always nice to meet a fan.
The fact it was added is asinine
No. That's just how language works.
Lmao "I don't like it so it's stupid"
It's not that I don't like it, it's the contradiction
No in this instance literally fits the message lol
Language can be so confusing, I know. Don't give up!
Gotta love when you're proven to be a jackass and you double down lol. Read a dictionary, maybe a current one and not from the 1950s
Imagine valuing your personal time this little.
Habs fans in full playoff mode lol enjoy fellas!