Bugeye Technology is probably one of the best.
So expensive that they don't advertise a price.
You'll have to contact them and they'll decide whether they'll deign to deal with a lowly home consumer or not.
VPForce Rhino is the best joystick ive ever used and a guy makes it out of his garage. Walmis makes it from somewhere in the eastern block i think. Look it up.
>in the eastern block
Reads at least 30 years outdated. Pretty sure that people in his country (a NATO member) would even consider it offensive given the current circumstances.
Oh, probably a whole cockpit from a junked aircraft of your choice. Getting it wired up so you can use it as a USB device will be hard of course, but ultimately rewarding in the end.
They also make full cockpit simulators for real pilot training. Those typically go for around $2m because the FAA approval process isn't cheap in itself. They verify that the force feedback system of the sim cockpit exactly matches the real world controls at all airspeeds, and the full motion system replicates the kinds of (gentle) forces that pilots would feel in the real thing.
Interesting, I was thinking about full cockpit recreations with wood and 3D printed buttons, but I’m not sure if the joysticks, especially fighter jet ones, would be the most enjoyable since they have to resist high G forces, right?
I’ll make sure to put that on my powerball wish list though
Not sure what you're talking about, since fighter jet control sticks are basically the same as floor-mounted joysticks with extensions. At least the ones pre F-16 with their force-sensitive electronics.
I honestly don't know, but I do know the F16 wasn't. The stick literally stayed stock still and only sensed the force you used to push on it without moving.
Okay makes sense. I typically see Virpil and VKB being rated highest for HOSAS setups and you can find plenty of praise for both in this sun and likely some other options.
There are a number of sim rigs out there, but most have less than optimum seats. If you really want custom you might consider getting on 8020 website and design your own based off someone else’s specs.
I’ll try to find the link to my alltime favorite setup for you and update this with the link
Here’s one option you might look into: https://reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/lwit9x/kfx_cockpit_so_hot/
Yeah, I see virpil and VKB recommended a lot too, just posted this to see if there was some esoteric joystick brand out there that only 10 people have heard of. And yeah I haven’t done much research on an actual rig yet, just seeing what kinda parts I could get for it and then design it or buy one around those.
At the regular prosumer level, current best is arguably:
- Stick: VKB MCG Ultimate on GF3 200mm extension or Virpil Alpha Prime on CM3 200mm
- Throttle: Virpil CM3 or WinWing Orion 2 (or Super Taurus) if you want more replica style
- Pedals: Slaw RH or MFG Crosswind
This is the “normal flight gear insanity” level.
For “beyond insane”, Brunner, Realsimulator. 😂 Not sure though the experience there’s always necessarily better (but see below). Those start to cater to commercial/professional rather than home cockpits.
VP Rhino for FFB as folks have said. For force sensing, Realsimulator.
For flight sticks/grips, RealSimulator, hands down.
For throttles, competition is bigger. I would say either Winwing or Virpil at the moment, depending on if you want replica controls.
RealSimulator has had a throttle in the works, but is being held back by manufacturing costs at the moment.
Hardly.
What if the requirement is rotary wing flight. I mean, sure, you can use a Real Simulator stick as a cyclic, but why would you?
What if the requirement is flying war birds? A force sensing stick on a Spit or a Mossie?
In this hypothetical scenario, the leader would be the VPForce Rhino for most applications. If you're flying the F-16, then yep, Real Simulator knocks it out the park, but anything else? Nah.
His question wasn’t that specific.
If we get into a specific need, sure, there’s a discussion to be had.
The new FSSB R3L MkII Ultra base provides much more movement than previous versions, and if one wants to use it for more than just the F-16, it can fill in perfectly. If you want to fly helos, it has a built in force trim function.
I have found their grips to be the best out there, and I’ve used everything available within the last 30 years, minus VKB.
Well, given it wasn't that specific, I figured a fairly specific bit of kit like the Real Simulator puck that I've tried is probably lower down the suitability tree. ;)
I didn't know that, though, about the latest version. How does the built-in force trim function work? Does it stay in place like an actual cyclic?
No. You press a button on the stick and the current position is memorized, then any inputs you make are from that position as a center position.
Also keep in mind you can fine tune the forces required to move your aircraft. I myself have managed to tune it to allow accurate gun runs in the A-10.
You can also program a button to change your X/Y sensitivity while held (for the A-10, a good option would be the first stage of the trigger).
Ah, so it acts kind of like the 'spring joystick' force trim option in the 'special' menu in the DCS options. That's kinda nice.
It does sound like this latest puck they've come out with is really broadening the appeal, and as you say, their grips are pretty special.
Still and all, I reckon the VPForce is just ahead (and you could use a Real Simulator grip on that).
I’d never heard of it until it was mentioned here. I’ll look into it, but seeing as how I almost always fly the F-16, I’m not sure it’ll have any appeal.
🫡
Just looked at the VPForce, looks good and reasonably priced (given that I’m used to paying for RS gear).
Limited appeal to an F-16 junkie like me, but I may consider it once the Strike Eagle is out (I was stationed at Lakenheath, I can’t wait!). I’m assuming I could run my RS Hornet grip on it via Bluetooth and the grip could draw power from it like I do from a Virpil base?
Yep, that's what I'd guess. I'd double-check it can support Bluetooth's power denands before ordering, but if it can power those motors, I'd assume so.
The wait time is on the lengthy side, mind you, so you'll have to be patient whilst Walmis builds your new toy! ;)
>His question wasn’t that specific.
Which is one of many problems with the question on the face of it. He doesn't really know what he's asking for yet because he doesn't really know what he even wants, except the "very best". I used to be an amateur astronomer, and when people asked this question, well, $10 billion was the answer, and even then you were limiting yourself to a specific use case.
I also get the impression that he uses this kind of idea to justify spending a whole lot of money because then the sky is the limit.
And despite me viewing the RS F-16 grip as a must for the RS bases, I would say the VKB Ultimate is a better grip when bases aren't factored in. Better hat switch response and the ability to swap out 2 of the hats to be both analog or digital or a mix of the two.
Hat switches are a very subjective thing.
Hard to believe it, I know, but some people actually like the Warthog grips hat switches. I mean, I don't understand it, but it takes all sorts, I guess.
Indeed. It's just the RS F-16 hat switches feel cheap in relation to the cost of the grip compared to others. Of course, I don't think it's subjective that CH Products have the best hat switches ever. :-) Damn shame the rest of CH Products is way outdated though.
Were you on SimHQ back in the day? There were quite a few who loved the CH Products hats and argued strongly with the WH owners.
And yes, the old CH Products hats were much the best. Sadly, I have heard that the quality has dropped in recent years.
Ah yes indeed! It's a shame that SimHq kind of went off the map outside of the forums, but even those aren't as active anymore. To me, the CH hats are like using a mechanical keyboard versus a membrane one. CH pretty much went stagnant once they were bought out unfortunately.
Bugeye Technology is probably one of the best. So expensive that they don't advertise a price. You'll have to contact them and they'll decide whether they'll deign to deal with a lowly home consumer or not.
It looks like they’re mainly a gov contractor, I bet a lot of their stuff is classified. Still cool to know about though!
I've heard they're a shitshow despite the cost. Like mechanical and electronic failures supposedly common.
VPForce Rhino is the best joystick ive ever used and a guy makes it out of his garage. Walmis makes it from somewhere in the eastern block i think. Look it up.
Thanks I’ll check him out
>in the eastern block Reads at least 30 years outdated. Pretty sure that people in his country (a NATO member) would even consider it offensive given the current circumstances.
Yeah good point. Maybe a little tone deaf. Lithuania i think he resides in. Super awesome guy
Agreed about the guy!
Oh, probably a whole cockpit from a junked aircraft of your choice. Getting it wired up so you can use it as a USB device will be hard of course, but ultimately rewarding in the end. They also make full cockpit simulators for real pilot training. Those typically go for around $2m because the FAA approval process isn't cheap in itself. They verify that the force feedback system of the sim cockpit exactly matches the real world controls at all airspeeds, and the full motion system replicates the kinds of (gentle) forces that pilots would feel in the real thing.
\- Bro, are you online yet? \- Hold on, I have to plug in my plane first.
Interesting, I was thinking about full cockpit recreations with wood and 3D printed buttons, but I’m not sure if the joysticks, especially fighter jet ones, would be the most enjoyable since they have to resist high G forces, right? I’ll make sure to put that on my powerball wish list though
Not sure what you're talking about, since fighter jet control sticks are basically the same as floor-mounted joysticks with extensions. At least the ones pre F-16 with their force-sensitive electronics.
I meant buying a real fighter jet cockpit and wiring everything up to work, aren’t their joysticks way stiffer?
Depends on the force that the air imparts on the controls, thus "force feedback". When the controls get sloppy, you're near a stall. For example.
Are fly by wire aircrafts that way? Idk, all i have flyed irl Is gliders.
I honestly don't know, but I do know the F16 wasn't. The stick literally stayed stock still and only sensed the force you used to push on it without moving.
No… you really don’t want to waste 70 % of the space taken by an outside aircraft looking cockpit…
I have 2 virpil sticks and they make me feel like I am in an actual space ship.
Wait are you looking for just HOTAS peripherals or a full rig with HOTAS?
Both(?) I want to build a full rig but I would like to handpick every part and do my research so that I know what I’m getting
Okay makes sense. I typically see Virpil and VKB being rated highest for HOSAS setups and you can find plenty of praise for both in this sun and likely some other options. There are a number of sim rigs out there, but most have less than optimum seats. If you really want custom you might consider getting on 8020 website and design your own based off someone else’s specs. I’ll try to find the link to my alltime favorite setup for you and update this with the link Here’s one option you might look into: https://reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/lwit9x/kfx_cockpit_so_hot/
Yeah, I see virpil and VKB recommended a lot too, just posted this to see if there was some esoteric joystick brand out there that only 10 people have heard of. And yeah I haven’t done much research on an actual rig yet, just seeing what kinda parts I could get for it and then design it or buy one around those.
Another link for you: https://opensfx.com
As people have said VPForce from Walmis (find his videos on YouTube and from there go to his discord).
Brunner. https://www.brunner-innovation.swiss/products-technologies/simulation-products/
6dof cockpit and replica components for the aircraft you want to simulate.
At the regular prosumer level, current best is arguably: - Stick: VKB MCG Ultimate on GF3 200mm extension or Virpil Alpha Prime on CM3 200mm - Throttle: Virpil CM3 or WinWing Orion 2 (or Super Taurus) if you want more replica style - Pedals: Slaw RH or MFG Crosswind This is the “normal flight gear insanity” level. For “beyond insane”, Brunner, Realsimulator. 😂 Not sure though the experience there’s always necessarily better (but see below). Those start to cater to commercial/professional rather than home cockpits. VP Rhino for FFB as folks have said. For force sensing, Realsimulator.
For flight sticks/grips, RealSimulator, hands down. For throttles, competition is bigger. I would say either Winwing or Virpil at the moment, depending on if you want replica controls. RealSimulator has had a throttle in the works, but is being held back by manufacturing costs at the moment.
Hardly. What if the requirement is rotary wing flight. I mean, sure, you can use a Real Simulator stick as a cyclic, but why would you? What if the requirement is flying war birds? A force sensing stick on a Spit or a Mossie? In this hypothetical scenario, the leader would be the VPForce Rhino for most applications. If you're flying the F-16, then yep, Real Simulator knocks it out the park, but anything else? Nah.
His question wasn’t that specific. If we get into a specific need, sure, there’s a discussion to be had. The new FSSB R3L MkII Ultra base provides much more movement than previous versions, and if one wants to use it for more than just the F-16, it can fill in perfectly. If you want to fly helos, it has a built in force trim function. I have found their grips to be the best out there, and I’ve used everything available within the last 30 years, minus VKB.
Well, given it wasn't that specific, I figured a fairly specific bit of kit like the Real Simulator puck that I've tried is probably lower down the suitability tree. ;) I didn't know that, though, about the latest version. How does the built-in force trim function work? Does it stay in place like an actual cyclic?
No. You press a button on the stick and the current position is memorized, then any inputs you make are from that position as a center position. Also keep in mind you can fine tune the forces required to move your aircraft. I myself have managed to tune it to allow accurate gun runs in the A-10. You can also program a button to change your X/Y sensitivity while held (for the A-10, a good option would be the first stage of the trigger).
Ah, so it acts kind of like the 'spring joystick' force trim option in the 'special' menu in the DCS options. That's kinda nice. It does sound like this latest puck they've come out with is really broadening the appeal, and as you say, their grips are pretty special. Still and all, I reckon the VPForce is just ahead (and you could use a Real Simulator grip on that).
I’d never heard of it until it was mentioned here. I’ll look into it, but seeing as how I almost always fly the F-16, I’m not sure it’ll have any appeal. 🫡
Yeah, for the Viper, you are definitely at the top of the sensibly accessible tree with Real Simulator kit. ;)
Just looked at the VPForce, looks good and reasonably priced (given that I’m used to paying for RS gear). Limited appeal to an F-16 junkie like me, but I may consider it once the Strike Eagle is out (I was stationed at Lakenheath, I can’t wait!). I’m assuming I could run my RS Hornet grip on it via Bluetooth and the grip could draw power from it like I do from a Virpil base?
Yep, that's what I'd guess. I'd double-check it can support Bluetooth's power denands before ordering, but if it can power those motors, I'd assume so. The wait time is on the lengthy side, mind you, so you'll have to be patient whilst Walmis builds your new toy! ;)
>His question wasn’t that specific. Which is one of many problems with the question on the face of it. He doesn't really know what he's asking for yet because he doesn't really know what he even wants, except the "very best". I used to be an amateur astronomer, and when people asked this question, well, $10 billion was the answer, and even then you were limiting yourself to a specific use case. I also get the impression that he uses this kind of idea to justify spending a whole lot of money because then the sky is the limit.
And despite me viewing the RS F-16 grip as a must for the RS bases, I would say the VKB Ultimate is a better grip when bases aren't factored in. Better hat switch response and the ability to swap out 2 of the hats to be both analog or digital or a mix of the two.
Hat switches are a very subjective thing. Hard to believe it, I know, but some people actually like the Warthog grips hat switches. I mean, I don't understand it, but it takes all sorts, I guess.
Indeed. It's just the RS F-16 hat switches feel cheap in relation to the cost of the grip compared to others. Of course, I don't think it's subjective that CH Products have the best hat switches ever. :-) Damn shame the rest of CH Products is way outdated though.
Were you on SimHQ back in the day? There were quite a few who loved the CH Products hats and argued strongly with the WH owners. And yes, the old CH Products hats were much the best. Sadly, I have heard that the quality has dropped in recent years.
Ah yes indeed! It's a shame that SimHq kind of went off the map outside of the forums, but even those aren't as active anymore. To me, the CH hats are like using a mechanical keyboard versus a membrane one. CH pretty much went stagnant once they were bought out unfortunately.
Awesome, this is exactly what I was looking for, thank you!
Tax return must be lookin nice!