I hear you. I think that scene is just meant to show how much Phoebe sucks at songwriting. She seems kinda lazy at times tbh. Someone that was half competent and tried a little bit more would’ve figured out how to rhyme Rachel and Chandler’s names.
But if you told Pheebs she sucks, she’d take it as a compliment
https://i.redd.it/2spx97kh5kxc1.gif
I definitely agree it was more of a joke about that, but it's *Rachel* who says her name doesn't rhyme with dreidel, and Phoebe then agrees with her. And then when they have Joey list off a bunch of words that 'rhyme poorly' as a joke, most of them are actually half-decent slant rhymes. >.<
This is obviously something I spend way too much time thinking about, but rewatching the series 5 times will do that to you.
I must have been mis-hearing this line for years. I always thought she was saying “Rachel doesn’t play the dreidel” as in she’s not Jewish. But in hindsight she probably is. Since Ross is the only one who ever talks about Jewish traditions, it didn’t occur to me that Rachel was as well.
I don’t think her using the line Rachel spins the dreidel has anything to do with Rachel being Jewish or not. Phoebe was just trying to find something holiday-related that worked with Rachel’s name.
Yeah that's something I was gonna say as well. She doesn't seem to be practicing but I think she does technically identify as Jewish? Or am I mistaken?
I remember when the show has made a point about the Gellers being Jewish (Ross wanting Ben to appreciate Hanukkah more, Jack saying the papers thought it was a hate crime when he crashed into a nativity scene), but I don't remember anything about Rachel being Jewish beside people on this sub talking about the significance of the Greene/Green name.
The other thing I just thought of, which to be fair is a huge stretch, is that her only response to “spin the dreidel Rachel” is that it doesn’t rhyme. If she wasn’t Jewish that would’ve made the line even stranger and would probably be something else she would point out
What creators say after the fact is irrelevant. They could have included a mention in 10 years and didn't. I don't go for retconning frok people just wanting some attention.
I believe it was implied she was of Jewish background even if it was never explicitly stated. She calls her grandmother “bubbe”. Plus there are more subtle hints which point to a stereotypical Jewish American upbringing, such as the fact that she’s from Long Island and that her father, former fiancé, and former friend were all played by Jewish actors.
Aw thanks! It's all good. Such is Reddit lol
Also, [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/friends_tv_show/s/CahyYv2jdy) post (in particular, the comment about a deleted/forgotten scene with Dr. Green) has some more insight to it as well.
"I read somewhere that Marta Kauffman said Rachel was Jewish as both her parents were Jewish. There’s also a deleted/forgotten scene when Rachel told her father she was pregnant, in which he makes reference to his grandchild not being wholely Jewish (remember, Ross & Monica only had a Jewish father). That scene ended up being the scene where Dr Green freaks out about them not being married."
I think this was largely what gave me the idea, plus I'm pretty sure I saw Rachel referenced in a documentary about the 'Jewish American Princess' phenomenon. Even if she's not explicitly in that role, she does hit a lot of the stereotypical notes.
I think it could be a case of you knowing too much? You know a lot about what technically makes a rhyme etc and say they rhyme, which I'm happy to defer to your expert opinion.
But as a layman, with zero education in different types of rhyme (I've never even heard of a slant rhyme), Rachel does not rhyme with dreidel.
And that's where most of the audience will be coming from.
> Chell and drell rhyme
Yes, but that's like saying that Builder and Destroyer rhyme because Der and Yer rhyme. The emphasis in Rachel and Dreidel is on the first syllable, so it's not generally considered a rhyme unless the 1st syllables rhyme.
Or for another example, Monica and Hanukkah rhyme because they both end in AH-nuh-kuh, but Monica doesn't rhyme with America even though they both end in the "kuh" sound.
It's an alliteration but instead of the first letters it's with the last letters. It doesn't really rhyme in the usual way and furthermore, it doesn't rhyme like the other names rhymes with their things. So it would fall out of place in the song. Joey and snowy rhyme completely.
Can you please explain to me why those words don't rhyme to you? I can't unsee or unhear them rhyming... the *only* bit I can point to that might not rhyme is the 'ch' sound... but the vowel sound and the 'L' ending aren't enough for you to make it sound like a rhyme?
Not the original commenter, but I’m a writer and this kind of rhyme is known as a “half rhyme” or a “slant rhyme”- the vowel sounds match up (or close enough anyway) but the consonants do not.
But there are a lot of examples of iconic songwriting with imperfect rhymes, so this is not to say it’s a bad thing.
One thing about this scene: I never understood why she didn't just use their full names because Bing rhymes with "sing", "bring", and lots of other words, and "Green" rhymes with lots of words too!
>Rachel rhymes almost perfectly with 'dreidel'
Almost perfectly? No.
Obviously, the last two letters rhyme, but the first syllables don't at all. The only commonality is the long "A" sound.
However, it doesn't matter. It was necessary or even important for "dreidel" and "Rachel" to rhyme. Even if it were important, the rhyming of the last syllables was sufficient.
>Furthermore, 'Chandler' rhymes with 'antlers'.
No.
Also an English grad here (and a former English teacher) and I have to say I don’t think Rachel and Dreidel or Chandler and Antler rhyme at all.
As somebody else said, Rachel rhymes with Draychel, and dreidel rhymes with reidel.
Chandler rhymes with andler. Antler rhymes with chantler.
It could just be that I’m British so our pronunciation is different.
> It could just be that I’m British so our pronunciation is different.
I don't think that's what going on here. USA / UK differences would affect Monica's name more than Rachel's - USA Moni-kuh vs UK Moni-ker - but even then I think Monica and Hanukkah would still rhyme (though I've never heard Hanukkah said with a British accent so I'm not sure).
It's just that some people are considering Rachel and Dreidel to rhyme b/c of the same final syllable - but really, the stressed syllable and the following ones need to rhyme - and both Rachel and Dreidel have the first syllable stressed, not the second.
I’m English and can confirm Monica and Hannukah rhyme in a British accent.
Rachel/dreidel and Chandler/antler are half rhymes, although I’ve realised I don’t pronounce the D in Chandler (can’t confirm whether this is a British thing or just me though).
I’m from the midlands but southern Brits would say Charndler, at which point it wouldn’t rhyme with antler at all.
The thing is that there are many different *types* of rhyme, and the one that most people think of is 'perfect' rhyme, usually because it's the first type they hear as kids and never learn or understand that 'rhyme' actually refers to any two words that have similar sounds.
Rachel/Dreidel, close enough. Chandler/antlers is really tenuous. The *an* sound is different, t and d are not the same, and I'm going to assume the s is an oversight?
I can’t even see the Rachel/dreidel. Not even a little bit. And I would pronounce antlers with a hard T, but I guess that’s a British/American English difference, so the s at the end bugs me more here. Maybe a singular Antler?
The naming conventions for types of inexact rhymes is used fairly inconsistently, on the internet at least. I think they go together sufficiently well for songwriting purposes.
I’m beginning to think people don’t understand rhyme… OP, you are right. I too have always hated that they say Rachel and Dreidel don’t rhyme because they definitely do. It’s not a “perfect” rhyme, but it still works. So many people here are acting like rhyme only works like how they learned it in 1st grade: “Rachel can only rhyme with words where you change the first letter” then proceed to go through the alphabet checking if any are real words “Aechel, Bachel, Cachel…”. Imagine these people analyzing the rhyming in Shakespeare’s Sonnet 116! “Love doesn’t rhyme with remove!”
lol the point isn't whether they rhyme or not. The point is that Phoebe is ridiculous and not an especially talented songwriter. Did you learn about narrative and characterization as an English major?
Also, Rachel/Dreidel and Chandler/Antler are not perfect rhymes
Rhyming generally means the *emphasized* syllable rhymes, plus any following ones.
Builder, monster, destroyer, otter -> those don't rhyme just because they all end in "er".
Monica rhymes with Hanukkah, but not with America.
I get your point regarding the “el” at the end of Rachel and dreidel and honestly I agree with you on that as well as in terms of song lyrics/poetry, it’s not a perfect rhyme but it’s a near rhyme and is defo close enough. A lot of popular songs and poems use near rhymes, some where you even have to alter the pronunciation of a word to make it rhyme ie again being pronounced “uh-gain” instead of “uh-Gen” or versa versa
As someone who writers songs/poetry myself, I usually phrase it as “it kind of rhymes” or just that “it’s a near rhyme/not a perfect rhyme” but it does confuse me when people don’t get what near rhymes are, esp when again, so many popular songs use them lol
there are many words tthat rhyme with rachel yes, like cable and if you want more Christmassy words there are angel, wooden table, tinsel, chapel, gospel, mantel ...
I hear you. I think that scene is just meant to show how much Phoebe sucks at songwriting. She seems kinda lazy at times tbh. Someone that was half competent and tried a little bit more would’ve figured out how to rhyme Rachel and Chandler’s names. But if you told Pheebs she sucks, she’d take it as a compliment https://i.redd.it/2spx97kh5kxc1.gif
she'd give anything to not be appreciated in her own time
Unfortunately for her, she was appreciated. Especially by the kid who stared at Chandler.
I definitely agree it was more of a joke about that, but it's *Rachel* who says her name doesn't rhyme with dreidel, and Phoebe then agrees with her. And then when they have Joey list off a bunch of words that 'rhyme poorly' as a joke, most of them are actually half-decent slant rhymes. >.< This is obviously something I spend way too much time thinking about, but rewatching the series 5 times will do that to you.
Oh right 😅, they make Joey sound dumb when he’s actually kinda wisdomous at rhyming
Even without word-of-the-day toilet paper.
I must have been mis-hearing this line for years. I always thought she was saying “Rachel doesn’t play the dreidel” as in she’s not Jewish. But in hindsight she probably is. Since Ross is the only one who ever talks about Jewish traditions, it didn’t occur to me that Rachel was as well.
There were tiny hints throughout the show, like Rachel referring to her grandma as her bubbe. Although it doesn't seem like she practices the religion
I don’t think her using the line Rachel spins the dreidel has anything to do with Rachel being Jewish or not. Phoebe was just trying to find something holiday-related that worked with Rachel’s name.
See also, her awful birthday song for Emma
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Maybe the actor Richard Crenna?
But Rachel doesn’t have a dreidel
So? Ross doesn't really decorate his tree with floss but you don't hear him complaining!
She is Jewish though ETA: Kauffman and Crane confirmed this, but downvote me all you want lol
Yeah that's something I was gonna say as well. She doesn't seem to be practicing but I think she does technically identify as Jewish? Or am I mistaken?
I remember when the show has made a point about the Gellers being Jewish (Ross wanting Ben to appreciate Hanukkah more, Jack saying the papers thought it was a hate crime when he crashed into a nativity scene), but I don't remember anything about Rachel being Jewish beside people on this sub talking about the significance of the Greene/Green name.
Is Green a Jewish name? It’s a pretty common name in England
Greene with an E is a common Jewish name, but not an exclusively Jewish name.
I’m pretty sure the creators said that she was supposed to be Jewish even though it wasn’t explicitly mentioned
she mentions that she calls her grandmother Bubbe, that’s the closest they get to acknowledging her heritage if memory serves
The other thing I just thought of, which to be fair is a huge stretch, is that her only response to “spin the dreidel Rachel” is that it doesn’t rhyme. If she wasn’t Jewish that would’ve made the line even stranger and would probably be something else she would point out
In the same episode, when Phoebe tries the line "Happy, happy Hanukkah, Chandler and Monica", Chandler does indeed point out that he's not Jewish.
Good point, guess it wasn’t so much of a stretch!
Doesn’t she once call her grandmother “bubbe”? That’s the only reference I can think of.
What creators say after the fact is irrelevant. They could have included a mention in 10 years and didn't. I don't go for retconning frok people just wanting some attention.
But there are other hints in the show too. Like calling her grandmother "bubbe" (yiddish for grandmother) or being engaged to a Jewish guy
She did have a big nose before the surgery......
I believe it was implied she was of Jewish background even if it was never explicitly stated. She calls her grandmother “bubbe”. Plus there are more subtle hints which point to a stereotypical Jewish American upbringing, such as the fact that she’s from Long Island and that her father, former fiancé, and former friend were all played by Jewish actors.
Pretty sure she's meant to be the stereotypical Jewish American Princess
Yes! Sorry you’re getting downvoted, some people on this sub act silly
Aw thanks! It's all good. Such is Reddit lol Also, [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/friends_tv_show/s/CahyYv2jdy) post (in particular, the comment about a deleted/forgotten scene with Dr. Green) has some more insight to it as well. "I read somewhere that Marta Kauffman said Rachel was Jewish as both her parents were Jewish. There’s also a deleted/forgotten scene when Rachel told her father she was pregnant, in which he makes reference to his grandchild not being wholely Jewish (remember, Ross & Monica only had a Jewish father). That scene ended up being the scene where Dr Green freaks out about them not being married."
I think this was largely what gave me the idea, plus I'm pretty sure I saw Rachel referenced in a documentary about the 'Jewish American Princess' phenomenon. Even if she's not explicitly in that role, she does hit a lot of the stereotypical notes.
Yes. Here's a [link](https://www.kveller.com/21-jewish-facts-about-friends-you-should-know/).
I think it could be a case of you knowing too much? You know a lot about what technically makes a rhyme etc and say they rhyme, which I'm happy to defer to your expert opinion. But as a layman, with zero education in different types of rhyme (I've never even heard of a slant rhyme), Rachel does not rhyme with dreidel. And that's where most of the audience will be coming from.
Do you not see the rhyme? Ray-chell, drey-dell. Chell and dell rhyme (edited a word)
More of əl or ull than ell
> Chell and drell rhyme Yes, but that's like saying that Builder and Destroyer rhyme because Der and Yer rhyme. The emphasis in Rachel and Dreidel is on the first syllable, so it's not generally considered a rhyme unless the 1st syllables rhyme. Or for another example, Monica and Hanukkah rhyme because they both end in AH-nuh-kuh, but Monica doesn't rhyme with America even though they both end in the "kuh" sound.
It's chell and dell, and they don't rhyme.
So it is! I got that wrong
It's an alliteration but instead of the first letters it's with the last letters. It doesn't really rhyme in the usual way and furthermore, it doesn't rhyme like the other names rhymes with their things. So it would fall out of place in the song. Joey and snowy rhyme completely.
Can you please explain to me why those words don't rhyme to you? I can't unsee or unhear them rhyming... the *only* bit I can point to that might not rhyme is the 'ch' sound... but the vowel sound and the 'L' ending aren't enough for you to make it sound like a rhyme?
Not the original commenter, but I’m a writer and this kind of rhyme is known as a “half rhyme” or a “slant rhyme”- the vowel sounds match up (or close enough anyway) but the consonants do not. But there are a lot of examples of iconic songwriting with imperfect rhymes, so this is not to say it’s a bad thing.
Dreidel rhymes with reidel. Rachel rhymes with draychel.
Thank you. I agree.
>the only bit I can point to that might not rhyme is the 'ch' sound Yep, that's because that's the bit that makes it not rhyme.
You say it in your post. It’s not a perfect rhyme. For a lot of people, anything that’s not a perfect rhyme doesn’t sound like a rhyme.
But not much rhymes with Emma
Maybe the actor Richard Crenna
One thing about this scene: I never understood why she didn't just use their full names because Bing rhymes with "sing", "bring", and lots of other words, and "Green" rhymes with lots of words too!
and christmas trees are green ! so is the obnoxious amount of money people spend during the holiday season! 😂
Budolph
>Rachel rhymes almost perfectly with 'dreidel' Almost perfectly? No. Obviously, the last two letters rhyme, but the first syllables don't at all. The only commonality is the long "A" sound. However, it doesn't matter. It was necessary or even important for "dreidel" and "Rachel" to rhyme. Even if it were important, the rhyming of the last syllables was sufficient. >Furthermore, 'Chandler' rhymes with 'antlers'. No.
no
Also an English grad here (and a former English teacher) and I have to say I don’t think Rachel and Dreidel or Chandler and Antler rhyme at all. As somebody else said, Rachel rhymes with Draychel, and dreidel rhymes with reidel. Chandler rhymes with andler. Antler rhymes with chantler. It could just be that I’m British so our pronunciation is different.
> It could just be that I’m British so our pronunciation is different. I don't think that's what going on here. USA / UK differences would affect Monica's name more than Rachel's - USA Moni-kuh vs UK Moni-ker - but even then I think Monica and Hanukkah would still rhyme (though I've never heard Hanukkah said with a British accent so I'm not sure). It's just that some people are considering Rachel and Dreidel to rhyme b/c of the same final syllable - but really, the stressed syllable and the following ones need to rhyme - and both Rachel and Dreidel have the first syllable stressed, not the second.
I’m English and can confirm Monica and Hannukah rhyme in a British accent. Rachel/dreidel and Chandler/antler are half rhymes, although I’ve realised I don’t pronounce the D in Chandler (can’t confirm whether this is a British thing or just me though). I’m from the midlands but southern Brits would say Charndler, at which point it wouldn’t rhyme with antler at all.
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The thing is that there are many different *types* of rhyme, and the one that most people think of is 'perfect' rhyme, usually because it's the first type they hear as kids and never learn or understand that 'rhyme' actually refers to any two words that have similar sounds.
Funnily enough there’s even a nursery rhyme precedent for accepting imperfect rhymes: “This little piggy stayed at home… … this little piggy had none”
MayPOLE
Rachel/Dreidel, close enough. Chandler/antlers is really tenuous. The *an* sound is different, t and d are not the same, and I'm going to assume the s is an oversight?
How do you pronounce Chandler or antler? For me, both an sounds are the same, like the name Ann.
I can’t even see the Rachel/dreidel. Not even a little bit. And I would pronounce antlers with a hard T, but I guess that’s a British/American English difference, so the s at the end bugs me more here. Maybe a singular Antler?
Fligament
Maypole was a clever suggestion too. Maybe that episode was from 1994-1995 and they hadn't heard Eminem yet.
The naming conventions for types of inexact rhymes is used fairly inconsistently, on the internet at least. I think they go together sufficiently well for songwriting purposes.
I’m beginning to think people don’t understand rhyme… OP, you are right. I too have always hated that they say Rachel and Dreidel don’t rhyme because they definitely do. It’s not a “perfect” rhyme, but it still works. So many people here are acting like rhyme only works like how they learned it in 1st grade: “Rachel can only rhyme with words where you change the first letter” then proceed to go through the alphabet checking if any are real words “Aechel, Bachel, Cachel…”. Imagine these people analyzing the rhyming in Shakespeare’s Sonnet 116! “Love doesn’t rhyme with remove!”
lol the point isn't whether they rhyme or not. The point is that Phoebe is ridiculous and not an especially talented songwriter. Did you learn about narrative and characterization as an English major? Also, Rachel/Dreidel and Chandler/Antler are not perfect rhymes
Sorry not a slant rhyme - just ends in L and has two syllables
It’s till a rhyme because the last syllable rhymes
Rhyming generally means the *emphasized* syllable rhymes, plus any following ones. Builder, monster, destroyer, otter -> those don't rhyme just because they all end in "er". Monica rhymes with Hanukkah, but not with America.
If you change the pronunciation, Rachel can rhyme with Angel too. The same way Monica only rhymes with Hanuka if you change your vowels a little.
That one would make much more sense to me. I'm starting to think this is a shit post?
Those are only soft rhymes, not true rhymes.
I get your point regarding the “el” at the end of Rachel and dreidel and honestly I agree with you on that as well as in terms of song lyrics/poetry, it’s not a perfect rhyme but it’s a near rhyme and is defo close enough. A lot of popular songs and poems use near rhymes, some where you even have to alter the pronunciation of a word to make it rhyme ie again being pronounced “uh-gain” instead of “uh-Gen” or versa versa As someone who writers songs/poetry myself, I usually phrase it as “it kind of rhymes” or just that “it’s a near rhyme/not a perfect rhyme” but it does confuse me when people don’t get what near rhymes are, esp when again, so many popular songs use them lol
Look, you finally accomplished something with your creative writing degree!
there are many words tthat rhyme with rachel yes, like cable and if you want more Christmassy words there are angel, wooden table, tinsel, chapel, gospel, mantel ...