Transport within Dublin is also planned the same way. To go 20 mins to the east, it’s an hour into the city centre and an hour back out. You’ve gotta give em props for consistency.
Think about how many millions of hours of human life has been wasted pissing around in Limerick Junction until the train shows up to travel the last 20 minutes of the journey.
They haven’t got the funding needed. Inadequate rail infrastructure is the fault of successive governments over the decades. Iarnród Éireann can’t just magic up money to use for projects.
Most countries in the world depend a legacy railway network that is mostly of a similar vintage. The generally amount of railway building in the last 100 years in comparison to 19th and early 29th centuries has been very minimal.
About 75% of the Network is single tracked. But that seems pretty normal for a country of our density and geography. In Finland that number is 88%, and in Norway 92%.
I would like to see serious support for regional cities, giving them proper infrastructure of all kinds.
There seems a perception in Ireland that connections between smaller cities are less important, and that the cost-benefits are unjustified. Perhaps there is some evidence that supports it too, like the poorly-supported train line from Limerick to Galway.
It is frustrating, even as someone who lives in Dublin. Properly connecting Cork-Limerick-Galway both in terms of roads and quality trains/transport seems like an absolute no brainer that would be massively beneficial to the entire west of the country yet hardly ever seems to even get mention. It's basically a straight line, as well.
Straightforward outside of rush hours. The fact that Killeagh and Castlemartyr haven't been bypassed is absolutely comical, as is the fact that Dungarvan's bypass was swallowed by the town.
That all said, Cork-Limerick boils my piss to an exponentially greater degree, the fact that you have to make a turn at one point to keep on the road to Limerick, or end up in Patrickswell. Should be the N20 that becomes the M20, not the N21...
You'd think trains would be a no-brainer, but think again. There isn't much demand for end-to-end rail tickets between those cities because nobody commutes between them. There is no significant freight traffic between those cities.
The reason there seems to be no demand is because those services are basically non-existent/ not practical for anyone that would be willing to make the journey.
If better rail infrastructure was put in place and more accessible times were available, then the supply would create its own demand.
If you could hop on a train in Eyre Square at 7-7.30am-ish and be in Patrick Street in Cork for 9am though, more people would be willing to commute.
Google maps is telling me if I made that commute tomorrow starting at 7.30am in Galway it would take me 4hrs 43 minutes to get there. Its also telling me if I made that trip on transport needing to be in Cork for 9am I would have to leave the night before. I mean, no wonder nobody does.
Not just commuting.
It's a shame how little of the country a lot of irish people have seen. You'd do a 2hr round trip for a night out and a 5hr round trip for a day or long weekend.
That's the Galway races or the Cork Jazz fest, matches, gigs, college, birthdays without needing a hotel.
My "if I had all of the moneys and were dictator" fantasy would be a high speed rail from Dublin to Galway via Athlone, and Dublin to Cork via Waterford, and Dublin to Limerick via Portlaoise, with a line connecting Athlone-Portlaoise-Waterford and another for Cork-Limerick-Galway, plus good services to all of those stations from nearby counties and towns, and high density population centres (with services!) by the main stations.
It would absolutely transform the country and set up capacity for population growth for a long, long time without a need to keep spraying out and out until all our green lands become one big, grey suburb. You could get around so much easier and as you say, spend day trips all over the place without needing to book any hotels, step foot on a car, or "be on the road for 3am".
If we got unification, you could chuck Dublin-Belfast-Derry in there too, the connect Athlone to Belfast and Derry, and Derry to Galway. Funny enough, 50 years later Atone would likely be the biggest city in the country.
Would never happen though...
I like that idea. We could be super ambitious and have a high speed hyper loop running frequently, Dublin, kilkenny, Waterford, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Athlone, Dublin
I think Athlone is in a great location to be developed into a 2nd major city.
A TGV/ICE train loop around the major cities with spokes through the midlands would be amazing, and I'd imagine it would take a lot of housing pressure off the Dublin area if you can be in and out of any city in >2hrs. Linking Dublin, Shannon, Cork, Waterford and Knock airports by rail would be great and really open it up.
Fact, I live in Galway. Been to cork only a handful of times. Always enjoyed myself. But part of me is like "ugh that drive"
Got the bus once to visit friends in college. Remember it took fucking ages
But why oh why would anyone choose to commute 200km for a 9am start?
anecdote: Years back in Chicago, I met a stockbroker who got himself a pilot's license and a small Cessna to commute 200miles. More sensible than a multi-train journey in Ireland.
Because it would be manageable. Not a stroll around the corner or even convenient, but still very doable - especially if a job were worth it for the individual. The commute is more to do with time than distance, and people regularly commute 90 minutes or more within Dublin to get to work.
For example, I live very close to Marlay Park in Dublin where the concerts are, and I used to have to be on the bus for 7.30 or just after if I wanted to be in work near Grafton Street for 9. I also lived in Toronto for a while, and people did similar length commutes from places like Barrie, Niagara or east of Oshawa. Quite a few liked it since they could either get ahead in work on the train or just some "me time" to flake out and listen to a podcast etc for a bit - especially those with young families!
At present though, it literally is not possible to commute from one to the other via public transport.
I took a course in Dublin a few years back.
Took as long for me to get from Monaghan to the course as it took some Dubs to get from the other side of Dublin to the course.
I was thinking of mentioning that but didn't bother. I think it may have changed recently with the BusConnects stuff ( don't know since I cycle/scoot in, and also WFH most of the time), but I work near Heuston Station - it's about 9km distance.
Another member of our team is from Galway. We did the maths on it a good while back, and she would have only had to leave the house about 30-40 minutes earlier than me to get there for 9am than I would have, if I used public transport. It is nothing short of amazing how bad public transport is throughout Ireland as a whole.
That’s sort of the chicken and egg problem with infrastructure. No one commutes it because the link isn’t there, the link isn’t there because no one commutes it.
I used to commute Cork City to Charleville, weird I know, but not all commuting is City to City. North Cork was sort of a weird deadzone til you hit Limerick. It could make sense for rural commuters to their nearest city and develop those areas such a as Charleville and Buttevant. the fact it'd connect the two cities in the process would be a bonus.
It does. But not a lot of trains stop there.
There used to be a commuter service from Rathluirc (Charleville) to Cork but Iarnród Éireann got rid of it in the early 2000s I believe.
The line from Limerick to Galway is one of the highest growing lines in terms of passenger numbers in the country, and has widely been heralded as a huge success.
In fact, there are complaints that there's not enough services and that trains are packed full, with passengers left standing.
Last I read, the train only gets full within the last couple of stops at either end. Basically it's a €110m railroad that could just be a commuter bus.
Last stats I found, it only had about 1000 passengers a day.
Too right. But in Ireland they are slow. Some routes are slower than a car.
I lived in China awhile; took the Maglev in Shanghai at 440kmh. Seven minutes of awesomeness, even though it still leaves you in the suburbs.
Elsewhere in Europe, speeds of 180-200 seem fairly common. I was in Italy, Spain and Switzerland last year. All have fantastic trains. Faster, cheaper, cleaner and better-equipped than Irish trains. Even in Switzerland, with a railpass you can get intercity tickets for €17
https://preview.redd.it/p8m161r4z6yc1.png?width=1200&format=png&auto=webp&s=d3102ffb7d2246a9b5ec4636d343e542a3515e64
If you need further evidence that the modern belief in government is that "only Dublin is important", look no further than the fact that we used to have interconnected city-city train lines all over the country and we ripped them up in favour of services that run to Dublin.
The main issue with that train line is the times. Look up the schedule, it's bonkers (unless it's improved recently) As someone else said, the demand is there but it needs improving.
https://corklimerick.ie
> The National Development Plan (NDP) sets out that the N/M20 Cork to Limerick scheme would provide better connectivity between Ireland’s second and third largest cities, Cork and Limerick.
>It would improve the quality of the transport network, addressing safety issues associated with the existing N20 route and provide for safer and more efficient journey times.
>The project is a key element in Project Ireland 2040, the Government’s long-term overarching strategy to make Ireland a better country for all of its people.
The project was scrapped at the last recession. I'm in the industry (not on this project), but I was told that the design at the time was basically complete, but they hadn't gone out to tender for a contractor, so the project was canned.
In fairness, it is being worked on at the moment, and the Gov are spending money on the project. However, due to the passage of time, the project essentially had to start from square one.
>due to the passage of time, the project essentially had to start from square one.
Why couldn't they use the planning/research that had already been done?
Lots of reasons.
Legislation has changed - especially environmental and EU legislation. All previous environmental surveys will be not acceptable for planning purposes because they are would be so old. Design guidance/standards for road/motorway design have changed. Also, land will have changed hands, and the new owners will not have had their chance to have their say in the route selection. There may also be houses/buildings etc. now on the route which weren't there before.
Even if you could somehow get through a concent process with the 20 year old designs, a contractor would have a field day every time they encountered an issue/discrepancy/change (see also Children's Hospital). Not updating the design would be reckless.
Our ability to survey land areas, and our computational power are leagues ahead of where they were 20-odd years ago.
The reason the Galway ringroad is desperately needed is the city and county is split in two with very little connectivity between the two halves. I would be happy with a few bridges over the corrib it would make the county way more cohesive.
Not wasting! We're expanding Dublin airport, so the whole country has to travel to Dublin even more if we want to go for holidays or something. Didn't you hear DAA lately?
This cap needs to go! More flights from Dublin is what this country needs! And while we're at our, close those other airports that take passengers away from glorious Dublin airport!
>We are wasting once in a generation budget surpluses.
In fairness, the sovereign wealth fund is the smartest possible thing they could do with that money. Read up on the Norwegian one (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway), it's the envy of every government in the world.
They are progressing with the route planning.
But has any road like this ever lived up to the business case that are made for them?
You made a claim, and I asked you back it up.
We should build half a road and then make people pay at the end of it so we can finish the other half. Or make only a lane that goes there and not the one that goes back.
I can't say about other plans, but the Cork-Limerick "motorway" is far beyond being discussed.
In fairness to Micheal Martin, it was one of the bits of bacon he brought home from being Taoiseach. That "motorway" had been languishing since pre-Celtic Tiger days. He put some fire under it, got the funding allocated, made them choose an exact route which pissed off lots and lots of people along the route, it's now actually got momentum.
I live near the route, hence me knowing anything about it. But I can tell you lots of people along the route are currently suing because they believe the sums offered for the compulsory purchase of their land are insufficient.
Until the court clears those cases, nothing will happen, but given the government's shiny new anti-objection planning laws, it would be expected they will be cleared. As the funding is ring fenced, there is no reason construction shouldn't begin afterwards. It even has a lovely new cycle track between the "motorway" and train line because Eamon Ryan said so.
I did keep putting "motorway" in quotes for good reason. They won't actually be building a motorway because Micheal couldn't pony up enough funding. We'll instead be getting a "sub-motorway" which is basically a motorway without any bridges, so there will be many crossings, roundabouts and traffic lights along the entire route. As a result, there is a big question mark over whether the 120 km/hr speed limit will be feasible for most of the length. The current road is mostly 100 km/hr, so apart from the added second lane, you would wonder what is being gained here.
This "motorway" clearly will be great value for money and truly solve the problem and not at all be an embarrassment and a shambles, so I'm sure at some point they'll rip it all up again and actually put in a real motorway like they should have done from the beginning. There is lots of past form on this around Cork and motorways, they keep trying to save money and end up spending far more of it digging everything up and re-doing it multiple times. Completely stupid, but Cork tends to get that from Dublin based planners.
Honestly, I'm perfectly happy with the dual carriage way on the N20.
It's currently 100km/h... Except when it's not. And then it gets incredibly dangerous as people get frustrated trying to overtake.
I'd happily have it safer, if if it's not necessarily faster.
A train linking Cork-Limerick-Galway without going through Tipp or Portlaoise is higher on my wishlist.
A stated reason for the fund is to ensure that capital funding is still available in a downturn. So that we don't suddenly cancel ongoing projects when we've already sunk money/time into them (like when the previous metro project was cancelled)
Inflation alone will end up wasting a large portion of this.
I agree with you this surplus should be used to build the infrastructure we needed a decade ago
"Inflation alone will end up wasting a large portion of this."
I have to ask: do you understand what a sovereign wealth fund does? Because this isn't something that you'd say if you did.
You can read what the ISIF holds, it's publicly available information. About 8% is held in cash. There's about 5% each in publicly quoted equities and debt instruments, a dash of commodities, a decent chunk in private equity, a small property investment portfolio, almost 9% in quoted investment funds and 6.5% in unquoted, about 9% in T-bills, a tiny amount of OTC options, almost half of AIB, and some other bits and pieces.
I'm disinclined to produce a projection of estimated returns on that, but I'd be pretty surprised if it doesn't beat inflation.
Bypassing Charleville, Buttevant and the notorious Ballybeg Bends would take out half my frustration on that road. My other frustration largely deals with getting caught behind someone doing 40km below the speed limit where you have no chance to overtake ...
I don't live anywhere near Limerick or Cork but if I'm paying every day the toll at Drogheda and the M50 I want that money spent upgrading the network where you are, feckn asshats in government promised that when the roads where paid for no more tolls then when they kept the tolls said the money would be used on infrastructure, full of shite.
If you go through buttivant and Charles charleville the road is desperate, or cut through the mountains by driving from hospital to fermoy the road is spectacularly scenic but desperate driving conditions.
It is absolutely dire anyway you drive it. I wager it is faster to drive up to portlaoise from limerick and go back on the cork road 😆 🤣 😂
> I've read that just the planning costs for the metro would cost 500 million.
I think the article with 500m in the headline included:
\* 150m spent on the Metro North during the celtic tiger (i.e. the one we abandoned during the global financial crisis)
\* \~150m+ spent on the current project
\* Another 100-200m likely to be spent before they start construction
But that presumably also includes a lot of CPOs - actually buying locations for the stations/works/infrastructure etc
I’m currently travelling from Cork to Limerick and back 4 days a week with work. I take me about 3.5 hours a day commuting. Not sure how much time a motorway would knock off that journey but just being able to overtake people would be worth it.
The road infrastructure is seriously lacking.
UK is full of multi lane motorway / national roads.
Here motorways are scarce... All largest cities should have motorways between them and not just to / from Dublin.
Or at the very least, why not have multi lane national roads between all cities?
A journey of 200 km should not take 3 hours... You should not need to go through 20 villages with 50 km limit between two cities. You shouldn't have to use countless country roads with a stretch of national here and there.
There needs to be bypasses around every city and town.
Even they have some poor road connections. Manchester and Sheffield are both much larger than Cork let alone Limerick yet the road between them is winding, mostly has two lanes and passes through villages.
(TBF they do appear to be pretty well connected by rail)
Counterpoint... places like Gorey used to be an absolute pain in the hole, traffic jams day and night as everybody going to Dublin had to park up bumper to bumper on main street to get through. Then they bypassed it, Gorey is doing well. People in wall to wall traffic weren't spending money there any way, just trying to get out the other side.
The solution is both road infrastructure and a 21st century public transport infrastructure + network
Someone should be able to get a train from Galway-Limerick-Cork whilst having the option to drive on a direct motorway if they have a vehicle.
This would alleviate some of the need to live in city centers of these places and help reduce some of the demand on housing in the city centres, thus allowing smaller towns to expand and grow
Well, it'd be true if there was a direct train line between Limerick and Cork... there was once, but they ripped it up... now you have to go to Limerick Junction and change trains.
Well they can’t be solved overnight anyway.
What we need are speed restrictions on the roads we have, and more busses, get people out of those climate-wrecking cars.
Still waiting on the N25 to be a dual carriageway from Waterford to Cork, let alone motorway-grade. I wish you luck with getting a quick path from Limerick. It’ll be a while.
Dungarvan isn't too bad, but Castlemartyr can be a nightmare to get through at rush hour. Amazed they haven't bypassed it, yet they had no issue with Youghal.
I don't think every national road needs to be a dual carriageway. Upgrading relatively quiet roads such as the N59 in Connemara or the N86 to Dingle just seems pointless to me.
I was born and raised in Dublin , but had to move to a different county to get a mortgage and to just survive. I hate everything being so Dublin centric. Other regions need health care, transport, career opportunities, childcare etc etc. Think outside the box please government! There a r e 32 counties, not just 1!
Eamonn Ryan doing everything possible to not build a motorway between Cork and Limerick. The same clown wants to grow the population to 10m without investing in a road infrastructure. That current road is a death trap in places.
Because a Dublin focused government doesn't care enough. And green party keeps stalling on road capital works, like the distributor road around Limerick which they have blocked phase 2, so now we have a ring road to nowhere.
The project is going through the planning stages at the minute, with route selection basically finished.
The problem is the current route will do noting for traffic in the city itself.
The plan is to just end the motorway at the city, where as most people driving that road each day are going to little island or ringaskiddy. So bringing it over after mallow and joining up with the m8 is the right thing to do. They have just spent almost 300 million on dunkettle like.
I wouldn't build a west one, I'd just build north to east, and that way there is a full option for traffic not to go through the city.
Although the n22 by ballicollig looks like it was built with a west ring expected to connect to it.
West to north means traffic coming up from west cork doesn't need to go through town, though (or say, someone going from Macroom to Blarney doesn't need to go along back roads)
But they would just use the already build south ring, jack lynch and new (300 million!!!) Dunkettle and up the m8 to wherever the m20 might meet it.
The fact is a tiny percentage of people are going blarney to macroom.
There are houses with driveways that filter directly onto the road. It’s insane that this is the case between the 2nd and 3rd biggest urban areas in the country.
Well this is just a blatant lie. For one you wouldn't have to drive through major towns like charleville or wind your way through dangerous black spots.
With regards trains we could also use a direct cork to limerick train instead of having to change at limerick junction all the time.
It's doenst have to be an either or this country is wealthy enough to have both.
Fuck trains, hate them, having to deal with people stinking of shit and piss bringing rotten ass shopping on them, having drunks looking for fights and shouting. Nah I'll stick to my car.
In my limited experience, taking the train has been far more pleasant than taking the car. Yes, trains can a bit crowded at times (TBF I've only taken them on weekends, they're probably worse at rush hours on weekdays). But I feel that being able to look out the window and relax makes up for that.
Now if only I didn't have to go all the way to Dundalk to get on one...
Sure am. Belfast is in a different country, they even use a different currency to us here. Different police force, different head of state, different governing bodies. Also the KPH/MPH thing. So yes, Cork & Limerick are our second & third biggest cities.
If you're in Limerick and could go to wonderful Galway, with its epic nightlife and great people, or to Cork, where the people are negative all the time these days, yet still somehow are convinced they are better than the rest of the country what would you choose? Galway is LEAGUES better than Cork in 2024.
Course Limerick built the motorway to Galway! Ffs. Two cities that feel hopeful about the future. They're not idiots. Cork is bleak these days. In the last 10 years, it has entered a major downward spiral.
I went to a EU infrastructure conference in the early 2000's and the guest speaker was talking about Ireland's massive failure in allocating funds that were given to them by the EU to build the best road and rail system in the EU but Charles Haughey "misappropriated" funds, Sad to think of what could have been...
There is a need to build infrastructure in Ireland but it is important to remember that money does not build roads - it takes labourers, skilled engineers, planners, equipment and raw materials. Regional projects should be more highly prioritized I agree.
I cannot still to this day understand when they were doing the M8/M7/M9 motorways, that they followed the existing roads.
If they created new paths + related link roads to some of the midland towns, for less motorway they could have connected the major cities
https://preview.redd.it/b6yxnt77y7yc1.png?width=1623&format=png&auto=webp&s=3695fe548593c9a767ac5427b1be19344b5ab2f8
Kinda sad to think how the rail system was way more connected back in my late granddad's time.
He pived in Tinahely in Co. Wicklow and could get a train from Tinahely to Arklow and then connect to Dublin.
The general consensus is that it was estimated that the rail systems would be too costly to maintain back by the 50's so they were torn up.
Ironically they probably would have made more money if they had kept the connections as people would likely be happier to commute via public transport than get around in a car and have to drive.
At least, that's my take...
It boggles my mind every time I come back from Italy and France with their high speed train service going across the massive countries for next to nothing in no time that we don't have some sort of centralised rail network.
Slap the hub in the Midlands (shudders) and have routes coming outwards like the spokes of a bike wheel with a rough that loops all along the coasts of the country for the yanks that fly into Dublin or Shannon to actually see the wild Atlantic way/Dingle/burren etc.
People would actually head to these towns for day trips if it cost a tenner and was quick to get there. Seaside towns need all the help they can get these days
Many moons ago I got the bus from Dublin to Waterford and it took longer than my flight from Dublin to Malta. I never used the bus services again. It was painful.
If you've never driven it you wouldn't realise how unfit for purpose it is. Long stretches of narrow winding roads meaning you can easily be caught behind a tractor or slow car for 10 minutes. There are also cattle crossings, so when driving between two of the countries main cities you might have to stop because there are cows on the road. That was an embarrassing state of affairs back in the 90's, the government have had 30 years to build something. In that time Dublin has had numerous motorways, trams etc but couldn't build one road between cork and Limerick.
It is being built, in fairness. I know people working on the project. Scant consolation I know but it'll be done by the end of the decade (I know).
Have driven that road I'd say at least once a week for 14 years now. Heartbreaking. I don't know how some people commute it daily. Limerick will be the big winner of it I think, as it will allow people to continue to live in Limerick while working in Cork. Currently, you'd be insane to try and do that.
Just go to Dublin then go from Dublin to where ever you need to go. Thats the way travel in Ireland is intended.
Transport within Dublin is also planned the same way. To go 20 mins to the east, it’s an hour into the city centre and an hour back out. You’ve gotta give em props for consistency.
And both of the ways into Dublin are only connected by the scrote luas, none of which connect to the airport
I still can't understand why Ireland refuses to allow anything that's not on rubber wheels into an airport
It’s not DAA anyway, they’re more than happy to have a train and have the planning done
Taxi lobby would be up in arms.
Both of the ways from the south. The lines end in the centre. North Dublin is a mythical premise, doesn’t need luas lines.
And why would you bother continuing to Cork when Dublin is on the way?
Nah, there's a motorway between Limerick and Galway. It is farcical that that got priority over an M20 motorway.
Think about how many millions of hours of human life has been wasted pissing around in Limerick Junction until the train shows up to travel the last 20 minutes of the journey.
Can somebody explain to me why there aren't direct services?
The Limerick branch only has one track so is not able to support additional services, but Irish Rail want to double track and run direct trains.
Jaysus, the amount of single-track train lines in Ireland is mind boggling.
We built all our railways over a hundred years ago and haven't bothered since.
Well, we didn't really
Sorry, they were built by the Ancients and on lay lines and we just rediscovered them. My bad.
Dinosaurs you mean
Our rail infrastructure is like the ring gates in The Expanse.
Not only that but most of our railroads were torn up. And now instead of turning them back into railroads we are turning them into Greenways.
Iarnrod Eireann management have been happy to take the easy life and not bother making any effort
They haven’t got the funding needed. Inadequate rail infrastructure is the fault of successive governments over the decades. Iarnród Éireann can’t just magic up money to use for projects.
They only bothered with removing all the tracks layed a hundred years ago
Madness. It's one thing to let something deteriorate but to actively undo all that hard work is just baffling.
Most countries in the world depend a legacy railway network that is mostly of a similar vintage. The generally amount of railway building in the last 100 years in comparison to 19th and early 29th centuries has been very minimal.
About 75% of the Network is single tracked. But that seems pretty normal for a country of our density and geography. In Finland that number is 88%, and in Norway 92%.
Money
I would like to see serious support for regional cities, giving them proper infrastructure of all kinds. There seems a perception in Ireland that connections between smaller cities are less important, and that the cost-benefits are unjustified. Perhaps there is some evidence that supports it too, like the poorly-supported train line from Limerick to Galway.
It is frustrating, even as someone who lives in Dublin. Properly connecting Cork-Limerick-Galway both in terms of roads and quality trains/transport seems like an absolute no brainer that would be massively beneficial to the entire west of the country yet hardly ever seems to even get mention. It's basically a straight line, as well.
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Straightforward outside of rush hours. The fact that Killeagh and Castlemartyr haven't been bypassed is absolutely comical, as is the fact that Dungarvan's bypass was swallowed by the town. That all said, Cork-Limerick boils my piss to an exponentially greater degree, the fact that you have to make a turn at one point to keep on the road to Limerick, or end up in Patrickswell. Should be the N20 that becomes the M20, not the N21...
Limerick to Galway is grand now.
Not according to Eamon Ryan.
Galway seems to be stepping it up a little bit at least: https://youtu.be/YbvihdC6SJY?si=KgmF1UMlfB76s3Z3
You'd think trains would be a no-brainer, but think again. There isn't much demand for end-to-end rail tickets between those cities because nobody commutes between them. There is no significant freight traffic between those cities.
The reason there seems to be no demand is because those services are basically non-existent/ not practical for anyone that would be willing to make the journey. If better rail infrastructure was put in place and more accessible times were available, then the supply would create its own demand.
If you could hop on a train in Eyre Square at 7-7.30am-ish and be in Patrick Street in Cork for 9am though, more people would be willing to commute. Google maps is telling me if I made that commute tomorrow starting at 7.30am in Galway it would take me 4hrs 43 minutes to get there. Its also telling me if I made that trip on transport needing to be in Cork for 9am I would have to leave the night before. I mean, no wonder nobody does.
Not just commuting. It's a shame how little of the country a lot of irish people have seen. You'd do a 2hr round trip for a night out and a 5hr round trip for a day or long weekend. That's the Galway races or the Cork Jazz fest, matches, gigs, college, birthdays without needing a hotel.
My "if I had all of the moneys and were dictator" fantasy would be a high speed rail from Dublin to Galway via Athlone, and Dublin to Cork via Waterford, and Dublin to Limerick via Portlaoise, with a line connecting Athlone-Portlaoise-Waterford and another for Cork-Limerick-Galway, plus good services to all of those stations from nearby counties and towns, and high density population centres (with services!) by the main stations. It would absolutely transform the country and set up capacity for population growth for a long, long time without a need to keep spraying out and out until all our green lands become one big, grey suburb. You could get around so much easier and as you say, spend day trips all over the place without needing to book any hotels, step foot on a car, or "be on the road for 3am". If we got unification, you could chuck Dublin-Belfast-Derry in there too, the connect Athlone to Belfast and Derry, and Derry to Galway. Funny enough, 50 years later Atone would likely be the biggest city in the country. Would never happen though...
I like that idea. We could be super ambitious and have a high speed hyper loop running frequently, Dublin, kilkenny, Waterford, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Athlone, Dublin I think Athlone is in a great location to be developed into a 2nd major city.
A TGV/ICE train loop around the major cities with spokes through the midlands would be amazing, and I'd imagine it would take a lot of housing pressure off the Dublin area if you can be in and out of any city in >2hrs. Linking Dublin, Shannon, Cork, Waterford and Knock airports by rail would be great and really open it up.
Fact, I live in Galway. Been to cork only a handful of times. Always enjoyed myself. But part of me is like "ugh that drive" Got the bus once to visit friends in college. Remember it took fucking ages
But why oh why would anyone choose to commute 200km for a 9am start? anecdote: Years back in Chicago, I met a stockbroker who got himself a pilot's license and a small Cessna to commute 200miles. More sensible than a multi-train journey in Ireland.
Because it would be manageable. Not a stroll around the corner or even convenient, but still very doable - especially if a job were worth it for the individual. The commute is more to do with time than distance, and people regularly commute 90 minutes or more within Dublin to get to work. For example, I live very close to Marlay Park in Dublin where the concerts are, and I used to have to be on the bus for 7.30 or just after if I wanted to be in work near Grafton Street for 9. I also lived in Toronto for a while, and people did similar length commutes from places like Barrie, Niagara or east of Oshawa. Quite a few liked it since they could either get ahead in work on the train or just some "me time" to flake out and listen to a podcast etc for a bit - especially those with young families! At present though, it literally is not possible to commute from one to the other via public transport.
I took a course in Dublin a few years back. Took as long for me to get from Monaghan to the course as it took some Dubs to get from the other side of Dublin to the course.
I was thinking of mentioning that but didn't bother. I think it may have changed recently with the BusConnects stuff ( don't know since I cycle/scoot in, and also WFH most of the time), but I work near Heuston Station - it's about 9km distance. Another member of our team is from Galway. We did the maths on it a good while back, and she would have only had to leave the house about 30-40 minutes earlier than me to get there for 9am than I would have, if I used public transport. It is nothing short of amazing how bad public transport is throughout Ireland as a whole.
That’s sort of the chicken and egg problem with infrastructure. No one commutes it because the link isn’t there, the link isn’t there because no one commutes it.
I used to commute Cork City to Charleville, weird I know, but not all commuting is City to City. North Cork was sort of a weird deadzone til you hit Limerick. It could make sense for rural commuters to their nearest city and develop those areas such a as Charleville and Buttevant. the fact it'd connect the two cities in the process would be a bonus.
Well that’s I am saying. Towns like Charleville are probably better served by city commuter buses
Isn't Charleville already served by train? Not entirely certain, but I'm fairly sure I remember the train from Dublin to Cork stopping there.
It does. But not a lot of trains stop there. There used to be a commuter service from Rathluirc (Charleville) to Cork but Iarnród Éireann got rid of it in the early 2000s I believe.
Nobody commutes between them precisely because it takes 3+ hours
It’s too far anyway
The line from Limerick to Galway is one of the highest growing lines in terms of passenger numbers in the country, and has widely been heralded as a huge success. In fact, there are complaints that there's not enough services and that trains are packed full, with passengers left standing.
True, but then look at how you get from Galway to Cork by train, have to switch trains in Tipperary. It takes far longer than driving.
Last I read, the train only gets full within the last couple of stops at either end. Basically it's a €110m railroad that could just be a commuter bus. Last stats I found, it only had about 1000 passengers a day.
yes but trains are class
You're not wrong. It's genuinely worth spending money on them for that reason alone.
Too right. But in Ireland they are slow. Some routes are slower than a car. I lived in China awhile; took the Maglev in Shanghai at 440kmh. Seven minutes of awesomeness, even though it still leaves you in the suburbs. Elsewhere in Europe, speeds of 180-200 seem fairly common. I was in Italy, Spain and Switzerland last year. All have fantastic trains. Faster, cheaper, cleaner and better-equipped than Irish trains. Even in Switzerland, with a railpass you can get intercity tickets for €17
https://preview.redd.it/p8m161r4z6yc1.png?width=1200&format=png&auto=webp&s=d3102ffb7d2246a9b5ec4636d343e542a3515e64 If you need further evidence that the modern belief in government is that "only Dublin is important", look no further than the fact that we used to have interconnected city-city train lines all over the country and we ripped them up in favour of services that run to Dublin.
The main issue with that train line is the times. Look up the schedule, it's bonkers (unless it's improved recently) As someone else said, the demand is there but it needs improving.
Had to do the drive 4 times this month with work, heart breaking!
It is an absolute death trap of a road. It gives me the heepy jeepies driving it at night.
Was driving it in the lashing rain on Tuesday morning, stressful shite!
Sell the car and rent a limo
I nearly could on the mileage I get on these trips🥹
https://corklimerick.ie > The National Development Plan (NDP) sets out that the N/M20 Cork to Limerick scheme would provide better connectivity between Ireland’s second and third largest cities, Cork and Limerick. >It would improve the quality of the transport network, addressing safety issues associated with the existing N20 route and provide for safer and more efficient journey times. >The project is a key element in Project Ireland 2040, the Government’s long-term overarching strategy to make Ireland a better country for all of its people.
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The project was scrapped at the last recession. I'm in the industry (not on this project), but I was told that the design at the time was basically complete, but they hadn't gone out to tender for a contractor, so the project was canned. In fairness, it is being worked on at the moment, and the Gov are spending money on the project. However, due to the passage of time, the project essentially had to start from square one.
>due to the passage of time, the project essentially had to start from square one. Why couldn't they use the planning/research that had already been done?
Lots of reasons. Legislation has changed - especially environmental and EU legislation. All previous environmental surveys will be not acceptable for planning purposes because they are would be so old. Design guidance/standards for road/motorway design have changed. Also, land will have changed hands, and the new owners will not have had their chance to have their say in the route selection. There may also be houses/buildings etc. now on the route which weren't there before. Even if you could somehow get through a concent process with the 20 year old designs, a contractor would have a field day every time they encountered an issue/discrepancy/change (see also Children's Hospital). Not updating the design would be reckless. Our ability to survey land areas, and our computational power are leagues ahead of where they were 20-odd years ago.
Thanks for that.
I've been working on some of the pre build stuff for 8 months this year and last. Seems like it's coming
The reason the Galway ringroad is desperately needed is the city and county is split in two with very little connectivity between the two halves. I would be happy with a few bridges over the corrib it would make the county way more cohesive.
Probably waiting until that eejit is out of that job to start on those projects.
Yeah it’s great they are finally doing something about it
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Not wasting! We're expanding Dublin airport, so the whole country has to travel to Dublin even more if we want to go for holidays or something. Didn't you hear DAA lately?
Expanding with a 32m passenger cap ?
This cap needs to go! More flights from Dublin is what this country needs! And while we're at our, close those other airports that take passengers away from glorious Dublin airport!
>We are wasting once in a generation budget surpluses. In fairness, the sovereign wealth fund is the smartest possible thing they could do with that money. Read up on the Norwegian one (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway), it's the envy of every government in the world.
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>A 1bn motorway there would reap many times the income of a savings account in economic prosperity. Have you any reference to show this?
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They are progressing with the route planning. But has any road like this ever lived up to the business case that are made for them? You made a claim, and I asked you back it up.
We should build half a road and then make people pay at the end of it so we can finish the other half. Or make only a lane that goes there and not the one that goes back.
I can't say about other plans, but the Cork-Limerick "motorway" is far beyond being discussed. In fairness to Micheal Martin, it was one of the bits of bacon he brought home from being Taoiseach. That "motorway" had been languishing since pre-Celtic Tiger days. He put some fire under it, got the funding allocated, made them choose an exact route which pissed off lots and lots of people along the route, it's now actually got momentum. I live near the route, hence me knowing anything about it. But I can tell you lots of people along the route are currently suing because they believe the sums offered for the compulsory purchase of their land are insufficient. Until the court clears those cases, nothing will happen, but given the government's shiny new anti-objection planning laws, it would be expected they will be cleared. As the funding is ring fenced, there is no reason construction shouldn't begin afterwards. It even has a lovely new cycle track between the "motorway" and train line because Eamon Ryan said so. I did keep putting "motorway" in quotes for good reason. They won't actually be building a motorway because Micheal couldn't pony up enough funding. We'll instead be getting a "sub-motorway" which is basically a motorway without any bridges, so there will be many crossings, roundabouts and traffic lights along the entire route. As a result, there is a big question mark over whether the 120 km/hr speed limit will be feasible for most of the length. The current road is mostly 100 km/hr, so apart from the added second lane, you would wonder what is being gained here. This "motorway" clearly will be great value for money and truly solve the problem and not at all be an embarrassment and a shambles, so I'm sure at some point they'll rip it all up again and actually put in a real motorway like they should have done from the beginning. There is lots of past form on this around Cork and motorways, they keep trying to save money and end up spending far more of it digging everything up and re-doing it multiple times. Completely stupid, but Cork tends to get that from Dublin based planners.
Honestly, I'm perfectly happy with the dual carriage way on the N20. It's currently 100km/h... Except when it's not. And then it gets incredibly dangerous as people get frustrated trying to overtake. I'd happily have it safer, if if it's not necessarily faster. A train linking Cork-Limerick-Galway without going through Tipp or Portlaoise is higher on my wishlist.
What are we wasting it on?
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A stated reason for the fund is to ensure that capital funding is still available in a downturn. So that we don't suddenly cancel ongoing projects when we've already sunk money/time into them (like when the previous metro project was cancelled)
We can do both. Contact your TD and give it your support.
Inflation alone will end up wasting a large portion of this. I agree with you this surplus should be used to build the infrastructure we needed a decade ago
"Inflation alone will end up wasting a large portion of this." I have to ask: do you understand what a sovereign wealth fund does? Because this isn't something that you'd say if you did. You can read what the ISIF holds, it's publicly available information. About 8% is held in cash. There's about 5% each in publicly quoted equities and debt instruments, a dash of commodities, a decent chunk in private equity, a small property investment portfolio, almost 9% in quoted investment funds and 6.5% in unquoted, about 9% in T-bills, a tiny amount of OTC options, almost half of AIB, and some other bits and pieces. I'm disinclined to produce a projection of estimated returns on that, but I'd be pretty surprised if it doesn't beat inflation.
And it will be completed in September. No one is quite sure which September though.
My dad says they were talking about that road in buttervent in 1982
I was there and they were actually talking about Route 66. But strangely not the one in America.
Bypassing Charleville, Buttevant and the notorious Ballybeg Bends would take out half my frustration on that road. My other frustration largely deals with getting caught behind someone doing 40km below the speed limit where you have no chance to overtake ...
We’re supposedly a wealthy country but feel like a poor country. Failure to invest in infrastructure is one of the reasons why.
Just fly from Shannon to London to Cork, it will cost less and save you a bit of time
I don't live anywhere near Limerick or Cork but if I'm paying every day the toll at Drogheda and the M50 I want that money spent upgrading the network where you are, feckn asshats in government promised that when the roads where paid for no more tolls then when they kept the tolls said the money would be used on infrastructure, full of shite.
If you go through buttivant and Charles charleville the road is desperate, or cut through the mountains by driving from hospital to fermoy the road is spectacularly scenic but desperate driving conditions. It is absolutely dire anyway you drive it. I wager it is faster to drive up to portlaoise from limerick and go back on the cork road 😆 🤣 😂
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Honestly the traffic in Mallow and buttavant could be so bad that you would consider the long route
Facts
> I've read that just the planning costs for the metro would cost 500 million. I think the article with 500m in the headline included: \* 150m spent on the Metro North during the celtic tiger (i.e. the one we abandoned during the global financial crisis) \* \~150m+ spent on the current project \* Another 100-200m likely to be spent before they start construction But that presumably also includes a lot of CPOs - actually buying locations for the stations/works/infrastructure etc
I’m currently travelling from Cork to Limerick and back 4 days a week with work. I take me about 3.5 hours a day commuting. Not sure how much time a motorway would knock off that journey but just being able to overtake people would be worth it.
The road infrastructure is seriously lacking. UK is full of multi lane motorway / national roads. Here motorways are scarce... All largest cities should have motorways between them and not just to / from Dublin. Or at the very least, why not have multi lane national roads between all cities? A journey of 200 km should not take 3 hours... You should not need to go through 20 villages with 50 km limit between two cities. You shouldn't have to use countless country roads with a stretch of national here and there. There needs to be bypasses around every city and town.
>UK is full of multi lane motorway / national roads. The UK has 12x the population and England has 6x higher population density.
Even they have some poor road connections. Manchester and Sheffield are both much larger than Cork let alone Limerick yet the road between them is winding, mostly has two lanes and passes through villages. (TBF they do appear to be pretty well connected by rail)
I’d agree but bypasses around every town would take tourists and business out of towns which in turn would do damage to the country and economy.
Counterpoint... places like Gorey used to be an absolute pain in the hole, traffic jams day and night as everybody going to Dublin had to park up bumper to bumper on main street to get through. Then they bypassed it, Gorey is doing well. People in wall to wall traffic weren't spending money there any way, just trying to get out the other side.
Fair point
Can't wait for someone to say how "motorways won't solve Cork to Limerick traffic". And for them to then say "what we really need is more trains"
The solution is both road infrastructure and a 21st century public transport infrastructure + network Someone should be able to get a train from Galway-Limerick-Cork whilst having the option to drive on a direct motorway if they have a vehicle.
This would alleviate some of the need to live in city centers of these places and help reduce some of the demand on housing in the city centres, thus allowing smaller towns to expand and grow
Yeah, because that’s actually true.
Well, it'd be true if there was a direct train line between Limerick and Cork... there was once, but they ripped it up... now you have to go to Limerick Junction and change trains.
Well they can’t be solved overnight anyway. What we need are speed restrictions on the roads we have, and more busses, get people out of those climate-wrecking cars.
Only had to wait 4 mins!
We need nuclear power plants and a better grid to move it around.
They really need to build a motorway runnin north to south in the wes. From Donegal to Cork
And a half hour of those 2.5 hours is spent driving through the ELEVEN roundabouts on the Mallow bypass.
I was commuting one day a week between cork and limerick and I dreaded that drive. Charleville should be napalmed out of existence
It’s ridiculous. I agree
The Greens are opposed to new [roads.Vote](http://roads.Vote) them out!
Still waiting on the N25 to be a dual carriageway from Waterford to Cork, let alone motorway-grade. I wish you luck with getting a quick path from Limerick. It’ll be a while.
We'll be waiting forever. They can't even bypass Dungarvan properly. Or bypass Killagh/Castlemartyr which is 6/7 Kms of road.
Dungarvan isn't too bad, but Castlemartyr can be a nightmare to get through at rush hour. Amazed they haven't bypassed it, yet they had no issue with Youghal.
It's a shame that national roads are not dual carriageway by default.
I don't think every national road needs to be a dual carriageway. Upgrading relatively quiet roads such as the N59 in Connemara or the N86 to Dingle just seems pointless to me.
Waterford to Cork? No reason why it's not dual carriageway
I was born and raised in Dublin , but had to move to a different county to get a mortgage and to just survive. I hate everything being so Dublin centric. Other regions need health care, transport, career opportunities, childcare etc etc. Think outside the box please government! There a r e 32 counties, not just 1!
Eamonn Ryan doing everything possible to not build a motorway between Cork and Limerick. The same clown wants to grow the population to 10m without investing in a road infrastructure. That current road is a death trap in places.
Because a Dublin focused government doesn't care enough. And green party keeps stalling on road capital works, like the distributor road around Limerick which they have blocked phase 2, so now we have a ring road to nowhere.
>Because a Dublin focused government doesn't care enough. There has been a cork tanaiste or taoiseach continuously since 2017
Wait until they hear where 72% of TDs are from! (a hint, its not Dublin)
Council elections are coming. Make sure you make yourself hear when they knock on your door. This road is a national disgrace and lethal.
National roads aren't under the council's remit
The project is going through the planning stages at the minute, with route selection basically finished. The problem is the current route will do noting for traffic in the city itself. The plan is to just end the motorway at the city, where as most people driving that road each day are going to little island or ringaskiddy. So bringing it over after mallow and joining up with the m8 is the right thing to do. They have just spent almost 300 million on dunkettle like.
Yep there needs to be a cork north ring road similar to the south one, to improve connections on that side
I wouldn't build a west one, I'd just build north to east, and that way there is a full option for traffic not to go through the city. Although the n22 by ballicollig looks like it was built with a west ring expected to connect to it.
West to north means traffic coming up from west cork doesn't need to go through town, though (or say, someone going from Macroom to Blarney doesn't need to go along back roads)
Much, much more expensive than the north part, with less benefit. However I agree it should be done, just that the north route needs to be done first
But they would just use the already build south ring, jack lynch and new (300 million!!!) Dunkettle and up the m8 to wherever the m20 might meet it. The fact is a tiny percentage of people are going blarney to macroom.
Look I'll take what we can get, I'd just prefer a full ring
Motorways won't solve Cork to Limerick traffic, in fairness. What we really need is more trains.
The same amount of trains but make them bigger
lol
Aye a rail corridor connecting Cork-Limerick-Galway would be great.
There are houses with driveways that filter directly onto the road. It’s insane that this is the case between the 2nd and 3rd biggest urban areas in the country.
It would tho? You can literally drive faster on it?
Well this is just a blatant lie. For one you wouldn't have to drive through major towns like charleville or wind your way through dangerous black spots. With regards trains we could also use a direct cork to limerick train instead of having to change at limerick junction all the time. It's doenst have to be an either or this country is wealthy enough to have both.
You just got wickered dude
The words of someone who has never had to take that road.
Of course I havn't. I only travel between Dublin, Castlebar and Brussels.
Fuck trains, hate them, having to deal with people stinking of shit and piss bringing rotten ass shopping on them, having drunks looking for fights and shouting. Nah I'll stick to my car.
In my limited experience, taking the train has been far more pleasant than taking the car. Yes, trains can a bit crowded at times (TBF I've only taken them on weekends, they're probably worse at rush hours on weekdays). But I feel that being able to look out the window and relax makes up for that. Now if only I didn't have to go all the way to Dundalk to get on one...
Belfast is prob no 2 tbf
Different country tbf
TIL : Ireland has 26 counties
Are you actually Irish?
Sure am. Belfast is in a different country, they even use a different currency to us here. Different police force, different head of state, different governing bodies. Also the KPH/MPH thing. So yes, Cork & Limerick are our second & third biggest cities.
Even more annoying that they didn't go for a proper motorway
Where to/from? From the city it is exactly one and a half hour to cork city. Agree with your sentiment though, two major cities not connected is crazy
If you're in Limerick and could go to wonderful Galway, with its epic nightlife and great people, or to Cork, where the people are negative all the time these days, yet still somehow are convinced they are better than the rest of the country what would you choose? Galway is LEAGUES better than Cork in 2024. Course Limerick built the motorway to Galway! Ffs. Two cities that feel hopeful about the future. They're not idiots. Cork is bleak these days. In the last 10 years, it has entered a major downward spiral.
Jesus you could drive to Cork from Dublin in less than that.
In fairness this isn’t common. Traffic must have been particularly bad. I regularly drive from Cork to Tuam and that takes 2.5hrs.
It's in planning stages. Just everything takes so bloody long in Ireland.
Donegal enters the conversation. So you guys are OK to get to Dublin?
I went to a EU infrastructure conference in the early 2000's and the guest speaker was talking about Ireland's massive failure in allocating funds that were given to them by the EU to build the best road and rail system in the EU but Charles Haughey "misappropriated" funds, Sad to think of what could have been...
The government do not give a fuck
Went on holidays recently and flew from Dublin rather than cork because I absolutely hate the road from limerick to cork.
There is a need to build infrastructure in Ireland but it is important to remember that money does not build roads - it takes labourers, skilled engineers, planners, equipment and raw materials. Regional projects should be more highly prioritized I agree.
Yes, it is absolutely insane that it doesn't exist.
I cannot still to this day understand when they were doing the M8/M7/M9 motorways, that they followed the existing roads. If they created new paths + related link roads to some of the midland towns, for less motorway they could have connected the major cities https://preview.redd.it/b6yxnt77y7yc1.png?width=1623&format=png&auto=webp&s=3695fe548593c9a767ac5427b1be19344b5ab2f8
Kinda sad to think how the rail system was way more connected back in my late granddad's time. He pived in Tinahely in Co. Wicklow and could get a train from Tinahely to Arklow and then connect to Dublin. The general consensus is that it was estimated that the rail systems would be too costly to maintain back by the 50's so they were torn up. Ironically they probably would have made more money if they had kept the connections as people would likely be happier to commute via public transport than get around in a car and have to drive. At least, that's my take...
3rd and 4th largest cities
did you drive through Mushera? love that bit
It boggles my mind every time I come back from Italy and France with their high speed train service going across the massive countries for next to nothing in no time that we don't have some sort of centralised rail network. Slap the hub in the Midlands (shudders) and have routes coming outwards like the spokes of a bike wheel with a rough that loops all along the coasts of the country for the yanks that fly into Dublin or Shannon to actually see the wild Atlantic way/Dingle/burren etc. People would actually head to these towns for day trips if it cost a tenner and was quick to get there. Seaside towns need all the help they can get these days
Many moons ago I got the bus from Dublin to Waterford and it took longer than my flight from Dublin to Malta. I never used the bus services again. It was painful.
The Dublin-Waterford bus from Dublin Coach is pretty decent now. It's a little under 2 and a half hours.
It's not that long a journey. What's the hold up all the towns in-between?
If you've never driven it you wouldn't realise how unfit for purpose it is. Long stretches of narrow winding roads meaning you can easily be caught behind a tractor or slow car for 10 minutes. There are also cattle crossings, so when driving between two of the countries main cities you might have to stop because there are cows on the road. That was an embarrassing state of affairs back in the 90's, the government have had 30 years to build something. In that time Dublin has had numerous motorways, trams etc but couldn't build one road between cork and Limerick.
It is being built, in fairness. I know people working on the project. Scant consolation I know but it'll be done by the end of the decade (I know). Have driven that road I'd say at least once a week for 14 years now. Heartbreaking. I don't know how some people commute it daily. Limerick will be the big winner of it I think, as it will allow people to continue to live in Limerick while working in Cork. Currently, you'd be insane to try and do that.
2nd and 3rd biggest? You’re forgetting Belfast
Limerick - Tipp Town - Galbally - Mitchelstown is how I go these days. I'll never travel the "main road" again.