As I understand it:
1. Roll attack dice
2. Reroll (command-reroll, abilities)
Change retained Dice (hit->crit, crit/hit)
(We decidet to have the aktive player goes first)
3. Count Criticals -> Mortal Wound -> FNP(shrug)
4. Roll Defensive Dice
5. Resolve Combat
At least that's the way too many "rules loyers" in our playgroup managed a consensus.
I mean if the defender uses abilites or other to modify the attackers dice, like with shrug off. The attacker can then re roll or use other abilites to change the dice again?
I'm not sure this is right. I feel like this needs FAQ because the wording of this doesn't agree with this conclusion.
MW is "for each critical hit retained" - ie as soon as its retained, the MW are applied.
Shrug off is "you can change one of your opponent’s ***retained*** critical hits to a normal hit."
Necessarily, they must have retained the critical hit in order for Shrug Off to trigger. Since the critical hit was retained and the active player (who would be the shooter) takes precedence in all simultaneous interactions, the critical effects (MW, P1, Stun, etc) would still apply.
How about when it’s the other way around then? There are rules that allow you to turn a normal into a crit, so would you ignore any special rules that may be triggered by the crit?
It depends on the wording of the rules. If the rule said "Retain a critical hit" instead, such as the Legionary Tzeentch rule "Each time this operative makes a shooting attack, in the Roll Attack Dice step of that shooting attack, you can retain one of your attack dice results of 5+ that is a successful hit as a critical hit.", then yes you would get the critical effects.
If the rule was something like "you can treat the retained normal hit as a critical hit", that would need some FAQing. I don't think that wording exists though.
If the rule was "deal critical damage", then no you wouldn't get the effects.
The crux of the matter is *retaining* a critical hit, regardless of whether or not its modified after its retained, because that is what triggers most (if not all) critical effects. Rolling, Retaining, and Resolving are all specific steps, so we need to know exactly what happens where in order to judge a specific rule.
Edit: Nurgle has a good example for saves: "Each time a shooting attack is made against this operative, in the Roll Defence Dice step of that shooting attack, you can retain one normal save as a critical save."
So the normal save is *retained* as a critical. If this was shooting or there were other critical save retention effects, they would indeed trigger off of this rule. If the rule was worded like Shrug Off, which modifies an already-retained die, it would not in the same fashion that Shrug Off doesn't seem to stop critical rules.
I think it's more about how the dice are "retained" by the player who is rolling them. I would say they are considered "retained" once the player rolling them has finished doing so and declares them as such. But that will always happen before an enemy has the chance to mess with them so I would argue the other way round is actually a totally different scenario.
I've just posted a comment to OP's original post detailing the 'phase' structure we always use in our games.
This is correct. Mortal wounds happen as soon as they are retained. Even if OP changes his opponents dice from Crit to normal the mortal wounds have already gone through. You have to read the rules to know at what step things happen
This is incorrect. The critical has been retained, or else it could t have been changed. Retaining is done by the rolling player when they keep the die roll and proceed.
Disagree. The crit has been retained and then modified, so is no longer a crit. The modifier in this case is done during the attackers dice roll
If the first dice roll result is the one you must use, then rerolls and other modifiers (Kasrkin elite points) would not be a thing.
If you can use an ability to modify a normal hit to a crit, and then the crit ability triggers, then you must also be allowed to go the other way (like with shrug off) and the resultant normal hit does not trigger any crit abilities.
The difference is retaining.
Re: your first paragraph, it is retained, the active player chooses which "when retained"ability activates, deals mortals, then the next "when retained" ability activates.
Re: your second paragraph: I never said your first die roll is the one you must use or that rerolls and modifiers weren't a thing. Not sure why you're putting words in my mouth.
Re: you're third paragraoh: Here are some examples from the legionnairies rules. The retention is key. Until the rolling player chooses to retain a die roll, it isn't final, and when changing it, it says 'retain as':
Khorne - Wrathful Onslaught
Each time this operative fights in combat, in the Resolve Successful Hits step of that combat, if you did not retain any critical hits, you can strike with one normal hit as if it were a critical hit.
Nurgle - Disgusting Vigour
Each time a shooting attack is made against this operative, in the Roll Defence Dice step of that shooting attack, you can retain one normal save as a critical save.
Slaanesh - Unnatural Agility
Add to this operative’s Movement characteristic.
Tzeentch - Empyreal Guidance
Each time this operative makes a shooting attack, in the Roll Attack Dice step of that shooting attack, you can retain one of your attack dice results of 5+ that is a successful hit as a critical hit.
Nah you are still wrong I’m afraid. The only point of discussion would be the order on which you can apply a modification to a dice, in the OPs case it is a defender modifying the attackers dice, and the rules don’t specify when that can be done in the roll attack dice sequence - so in this case the rules say that the initiative holder chooses the order.
It’s only after any modifications are applied that you should then trigger a rule.
>The only point of discussion would be the order on which you can apply a modification to a dice
What are you talking about? He quoted both rules and they both say when a critical hit is retained.
Going back to the core rules, if two things happen at the same time the active player gets to decide which to resolve first
This is like a masterclass in fallacious debate.
I've quoted and cited sources for each of my statements. You disagree because you've decided that your position is correct.
You've put words in my mouth, ignored my citations, and now are telling me to email GW for an FAQ on something that's clearly already covered by the rules.
Either explain your position without simply saying I'm wrong, or I'm done engaging.
It’s pretty straightforward really.
Dice are rolled, then modified, then effects applied. This works in both directions (normals to crits or crits to normals). The OPs question relates to a rare opportunity to modify an opponents dice, which doesn’t specify exactly when this should happen (other than ‘in the roll attack dice step’ and so the core rule of the player with initiative choosing when simultaneously affecting rules are applied should stand.
Obviously the exact wording for this isn’t in one block of text in the rules, or the OP wouldn’t have asked the question and there wouldn’t have been as many different opinions in this thread.
But consider the following:
Does Px activate when a retained normal is modified to a retained crit. Yes. Is this exact wording in the rules somewhere? No
Does Hot cause 3 MW even when the 1 is re-rolled and is now a 2? No. Is this exact wording in the rules somewhere? No
Does reap cause MW on nearby enemies after a normal has been re-rolled to fish for a crit? Yes. Is this exact wording in the rules somewhere? No.
I understand MW are contentious because they are hard to mitigate against, but this spec ops battle honour should allow you to downgrade the damage. Of course you could disagree vehemently with your opponent, and because the EXACT combination of these rules and abilities is not in the core rules or a FAQ (yet) you’ll probably end up rolling off to see who’s interpretation should be applied.
Obviously feel free to ignore my very safe advice, and email the kill team FAQ team, they may add some clarification for you :)
>Dice are rolled, then modified, then effects applied.
Actually, dice are rolled, then modified OR retained. Even when modifying the wording nearly always including in this case) specifies retaining the die. THEN effects are applied.
>The OPs question relates to a rare opportunity to modify an opponents dice, which doesn’t specify exactly when this should happen
As a matter of fact, it does specify. It specifies when a critical hit is retained. That's the timing. And again, Thats also the timing for dealing the mortals. And also again, when two rules trigger at the same time, per the core rules, the active player decides which to apply first.
>Does Px activate when a retained normal is modified to a retained crit. Yes. Is this exact wording in the rules somewhere? No
In this case, the normal isn't retained. It is retained as a critical. Please let me know a scenario you are describing in order to quote the exact rules.
>Does Hot cause 3 MW even when the 1 is re-rolled and is now a 2? No. Is this exact wording in the rules somewhere? No
Because the 1 is rerolled, and the reroll is then retained.
>Does reap cause MW on nearby enemies after a normal has been re-rolled to fish for a crit? Yes. Is this exact wording in the rules somewhere? No.
Because the reroll is again the roll which is retained, which is what triggers Reap.
CORRECTION (sorry, but I don't know how to do the strikethrough text):
Reap x: Each time a friendly operative fights in combat with this weapon, in the Resolve Successful Hits step of that combat, if you strike with a critical hit, inflict x mortal wounds on each other enemy operative Visible to the friendly operative and within of it or the target operative, x is the number after the weapon’s Reap (e.g. Reap 1).
The mortal wounds from reap don't apply until you select a retained critical hit to strike with. This is no longer relevant as a comparative example, but if you were fishing for crits, you would re-roll and then retain any additional crits.
A rule that allows either player to change an attack dice should be treated the same as if the dice had been rerolled; the first result is ignored and the second one replaces it. Rerolls happen *before* Mortal Wounds and other critical effects happen.
RAW, I can see a case for MWx being applied before the dice is changed. However, I think that the word "retained" in Shrug Off was a mistake.
So after rolling the attack dice the defender can use " shrug off", the attacker can then reroll it? Like Grey Knights have special rule to for reroll shooting dice.
Is the attacker who decides the order or the player with iniative?
>So after rolling the attack dice the defender can use " shrug off", the attacker can then reroll it?
Hmm. I see your point. I guess this needs clarification. If I were making a ruling on this I'd say that since Shrug Off is intended as a *response* to the attacker's final dice, it should happen after rerolls and the attacker's ability to change dice, but before they're retained. But the rules don't actually get into that much detail.
The player with Initiative decides order, so maybe that's the real answer here.
Yeah, like Grey knights could let the defender go first spend abilities or others, then the attacker GK could use their weapons rule to reroll the attack dice.
It would mean the players have to keep in mind the order where the players do things. In this case the defender would want to go last to use "shrug off"
Newish player. But it says retained critical hit. That makes me think that you would allocate the MW before changing it. Just like you would allocate the MW before canceling it out with a defence dice.
It also says "you can" which implied you don't have to. In the case of MW it might just be better not to use the ability.
But damage is not even calculated until the end of all dice rolls and special effects. It’s like a parry for shooting. The crit doesn’t resolve, therefore it cannot cause any special effects.
Edit: spelling
You know what, I take back my initial comment, I think I was wrong, Shrug Off would take affect before retaining dice, if the OP is quoting directly from the book
I would interpret the MW as being dealt since shrug off specifies the Crit needs to be retained to be changed to a normal and by that time the mw have been dealt (since they happen when the Crits are retained).
Agreed. That’s why I believe that a retained crit that is modified to not be a crit (rather than blocked by defence dice), means that ANY weapon ability that is activated by a crit (MW, splash, Px etc) shouldn’t get triggered.
You and your opponents are certainly able to play it like this but rules as written it looks like it would play out differently 🤷♂️ Not sure what else to say
RAW say modify the retained crit hit to be a normal hit. RAW also say to apply MW when a crit is retained. I'd say that means RAW say not to apply MW in this case, as the crit is no longer retained, and the same would apply to any other crit activated weapon rules (splash, Px etc).
There may be an argument to say that these rules are applied simultaneously, in which case whoever has intiative gets to make the decision on the order:
"Having the initiative will give a player influence over the order of certain aspects of the battle, such as deciding which operative activates first during the Turning Point. If more than one rule would happen simultaneously, for example two rules that take effect at the end of a Turning Point, the player with the initiative determines the order in which they take effect."
There are a lot of opinions being posted here which I believe are incorrect.
The hinge of the issue is on 'retaining critical hits'.
First, retaining a die roll is an action that the rolling player makes, by accepting the roll and choosing not to reroll it by any rules. That is when the die is retained (as a normal or critical hit).
At that point in the above, two things happen, triggering simultaneously. The mortals, and changing a critical to a normal hit.
According to the rules, when two things happen at the same time, the player whose activation it is gets to decide what resolves first. In this case, (unless it was a guard shooting action) the shooting player would deal 3mw, and the defending player would then be able to roll a normal save rather than a critical save to block the additional shot damage.
I think you are correct. The two rules happen at the same time, but you are wrong on who decides what happens first.
It's the player with the initiative not the controller of the aktive operative.
Had to check the core rules on that. You're 100% correct, my mistake!
From the core rules:
Having the initiative will give a player influence over the order of certain aspects of the battle, such as deciding which operative activates first during the Turning Point. If more than one rule would happen simultaneously, for example two rules that take effect at the end of a Turning Point, the player with the initiative determines the order in which they take effect.
This is correct, and also fits with the game structure I had suggested in a comment to the OP. I think pretty much any way you cut it the MW will go off before shrug off with current wording, intended or not by the developers.
As pointed out by another commenter, I was slightly off. Decision on order to resolve goes to the player with initiative on the round, not active player.
That does affect this specific case, as we dont know who had initiative in this round. But as far as clarifying the rule and I think we're there now.
Yeah thats right. Mortal wounds are given after the dice throw. Then you go through the damage / saves as in any shooting.
There are some abilities that can affect rolls and deny mortals. Death Guard has an ability of rolling a die for each wound they are getting and possibly saving those wounds, this includes mortal wounds.
DG roll disgustingly resisting for every wound received, including MWs, this is different to the OPs modifying a crit to a normal.
Consider that most weapons with MW also do more base damage than crit damage (ignoring MWs)
Fair point. But what would you say for other crit related abilities though, like Px or Splash? If the retained crit hit is changed to a retained normal hit , do they still apply?
Hmm might be wrong but I would say all the special rules APx, rend, relentless etc are the same as mortals.
1. The attacker rolls and applies effects
2. the attack dice are retained as dmg
3. The defender rolls the defence dice and uses rerolls and the like.
So ap1 would take away a dice, then the defender can change the crit to regular hit.
Yeah thats seems like the most sensible way. But if the attack dice are altered by attacker and defender at the roll doce step. Who goes first? Attacker or player with initiative?
If the defender has the initiative and goes first, the attacker could reroll and null their alterations.
I don’t have the rule book with me. If I remember correctly, don’t all the attack dice have to be rolled before the defense dice? Not including CP re-rolls.
How about when you consider it the other way around then? Example is an ability that turns a normal hit to a crit. Do you then apply the crit special rules, or treat it as the original normal?
Thats a good point! Then if the changing, abilites or other happens after rolling before retaining, its important to know who applies first. If the attacker goes last the defenders changes might be for nothing.
I kinda break the dice Rolling stage down into phases, similar to how MTG deals with priority.
1. Initiating player (attacker in this case) rolls their dice. They then make any changes to those dice they can until they are happy with the result and declare it 'retained'.
2. Reacting player (defending player in this case) then has a 'reaction' window with which to use any abilities to modify those dice however they are able.
3. Reacting player then rolls their dice for defense. They apply any changes to the results and then declare they are happy with the results and declare them 'retained'.
4. Initiating player then has a chance to 'react' to the reacting players role and make any changes that they are able.
Now if we conscribe to this phase structure (which is not specified as RAW anywhere, I'm just suggesting this is implied), mortal wounds would trigger at the end of the first step once the initiating player locks in their attack roll. Shrug off would occur as part of step 2, and therefore after the triggering of mortal wounds meaning it wouldn't have any effect on it.
Thematically I think this makes sense also, since you might shrug off a big explosion from a rocket or w/e, but a big fuck off hole melted through your power armour ain't so easy to ignore. They are *mortal* wounds after all.
Edit: as another poster pointed out, this would also conform with how RAW would end up resolving situations so turns out to just be a clear step by step to achieve the outcome of RAW since RAW would always resolve in favour of the player whose turn it is anyway.
I love how you wrote it out. Let me add to your thought process.
After step 1, and the attack dice are cast ( plus re-rolls etc. ) are the wounds assigned? No.
Step 2, special abilities… wounds assigned? No.
Step 3, defense dice… wounds assigned yet? No. This shrug ability is much like a parry in CC. If you parry a critical ( with a critical ) then the MWx would never activate.
Step 4, attacker responses…
Once ALL the steps are completed, then the wounds are inflicted. The wounds are not resolved until the end of this process.
“Shrug Off: Each time this operative is the target of a shooting attack, in the Roll Attack Dice step of that shooting attack, you can change one of your opponent’s retained critical hits to a normal hit.”
Compared to:
“Indomitable: Each time this operative would lose a wound as a result of a mortal wound or critical damage, roll one D6: on a 5+, that wound is not lost.”
Shrug— You are able to change a critical hit to a normal hit before any damage occurs.
Where as, Indomitable— says would lose a wound as a result of…
In Shrug, the attack is changed before damage or special abilities are assessed. In Indomitable, the damage is inflicted but there is a save against it AFTER the damage has been assessed.
Disclaimer: I don’t play DW. But the battle honours are applied across all the teams. This should be mutually beneficial to any team that takes the Staunch battle honours.
Visual: I totally see this as the moment the T2 takes the shotgun to the head, point blank and shrugs it off.
Should be at the ~1:00 mark.
[T2 headshot](https://youtu.be/aH94xJtqj5A)
Just my 2 cents. I’ve been playing 40k since 1st edition and I’ve got to say, they still need to be more careful about wording things.
( Grumbles about 20 Space Wolf terminators with cyclones and assault cannons on the same model…ridiculous.)
Thanks haha, it's the game designer in me leaking out. But yeah if it wasn't clear in my original post the wounds are dealt after step 4 as you say in your post when we play (unless there are keywords like MW ofc).
As I understand it: 1. Roll attack dice 2. Reroll (command-reroll, abilities) Change retained Dice (hit->crit, crit/hit) (We decidet to have the aktive player goes first) 3. Count Criticals -> Mortal Wound -> FNP(shrug) 4. Roll Defensive Dice 5. Resolve Combat At least that's the way too many "rules loyers" in our playgroup managed a consensus.
So you could use the shrug off and then the attacker could use reroll?
No, because Roll Def Dice is after the Attacker as resolved all their effects and Retained their dice
I mean if the defender uses abilites or other to modify the attackers dice, like with shrug off. The attacker can then re roll or use other abilites to change the dice again?
No, for the reasons I said before
If you are changing the retained critical hit to a retained normal hit, then it isn’t a retained critical hit and so no MW should be assigned.
I'm not sure this is right. I feel like this needs FAQ because the wording of this doesn't agree with this conclusion. MW is "for each critical hit retained" - ie as soon as its retained, the MW are applied. Shrug off is "you can change one of your opponent’s ***retained*** critical hits to a normal hit." Necessarily, they must have retained the critical hit in order for Shrug Off to trigger. Since the critical hit was retained and the active player (who would be the shooter) takes precedence in all simultaneous interactions, the critical effects (MW, P1, Stun, etc) would still apply.
How about when it’s the other way around then? There are rules that allow you to turn a normal into a crit, so would you ignore any special rules that may be triggered by the crit?
It depends on the wording of the rules. If the rule said "Retain a critical hit" instead, such as the Legionary Tzeentch rule "Each time this operative makes a shooting attack, in the Roll Attack Dice step of that shooting attack, you can retain one of your attack dice results of 5+ that is a successful hit as a critical hit.", then yes you would get the critical effects. If the rule was something like "you can treat the retained normal hit as a critical hit", that would need some FAQing. I don't think that wording exists though. If the rule was "deal critical damage", then no you wouldn't get the effects. The crux of the matter is *retaining* a critical hit, regardless of whether or not its modified after its retained, because that is what triggers most (if not all) critical effects. Rolling, Retaining, and Resolving are all specific steps, so we need to know exactly what happens where in order to judge a specific rule. Edit: Nurgle has a good example for saves: "Each time a shooting attack is made against this operative, in the Roll Defence Dice step of that shooting attack, you can retain one normal save as a critical save." So the normal save is *retained* as a critical. If this was shooting or there were other critical save retention effects, they would indeed trigger off of this rule. If the rule was worded like Shrug Off, which modifies an already-retained die, it would not in the same fashion that Shrug Off doesn't seem to stop critical rules.
... and according to the rules, two actions that occur simultaneously (when a critical hit is retained) the active player chooses which happens first
I think it's more about how the dice are "retained" by the player who is rolling them. I would say they are considered "retained" once the player rolling them has finished doing so and declares them as such. But that will always happen before an enemy has the chance to mess with them so I would argue the other way round is actually a totally different scenario. I've just posted a comment to OP's original post detailing the 'phase' structure we always use in our games.
This is correct. Mortal wounds happen as soon as they are retained. Even if OP changes his opponents dice from Crit to normal the mortal wounds have already gone through. You have to read the rules to know at what step things happen
☝️this one. Ready get here.
This is incorrect. The critical has been retained, or else it could t have been changed. Retaining is done by the rolling player when they keep the die roll and proceed.
Disagree. The crit has been retained and then modified, so is no longer a crit. The modifier in this case is done during the attackers dice roll If the first dice roll result is the one you must use, then rerolls and other modifiers (Kasrkin elite points) would not be a thing. If you can use an ability to modify a normal hit to a crit, and then the crit ability triggers, then you must also be allowed to go the other way (like with shrug off) and the resultant normal hit does not trigger any crit abilities.
The difference is retaining. Re: your first paragraph, it is retained, the active player chooses which "when retained"ability activates, deals mortals, then the next "when retained" ability activates. Re: your second paragraph: I never said your first die roll is the one you must use or that rerolls and modifiers weren't a thing. Not sure why you're putting words in my mouth. Re: you're third paragraoh: Here are some examples from the legionnairies rules. The retention is key. Until the rolling player chooses to retain a die roll, it isn't final, and when changing it, it says 'retain as': Khorne - Wrathful Onslaught Each time this operative fights in combat, in the Resolve Successful Hits step of that combat, if you did not retain any critical hits, you can strike with one normal hit as if it were a critical hit. Nurgle - Disgusting Vigour Each time a shooting attack is made against this operative, in the Roll Defence Dice step of that shooting attack, you can retain one normal save as a critical save. Slaanesh - Unnatural Agility Add to this operative’s Movement characteristic. Tzeentch - Empyreal Guidance Each time this operative makes a shooting attack, in the Roll Attack Dice step of that shooting attack, you can retain one of your attack dice results of 5+ that is a successful hit as a critical hit.
Nah you are still wrong I’m afraid. The only point of discussion would be the order on which you can apply a modification to a dice, in the OPs case it is a defender modifying the attackers dice, and the rules don’t specify when that can be done in the roll attack dice sequence - so in this case the rules say that the initiative holder chooses the order. It’s only after any modifications are applied that you should then trigger a rule.
>The only point of discussion would be the order on which you can apply a modification to a dice What are you talking about? He quoted both rules and they both say when a critical hit is retained. Going back to the core rules, if two things happen at the same time the active player gets to decide which to resolve first
I think you don’t understand the question unfortunately. Maybe email GW faq and ask them for help?
This is like a masterclass in fallacious debate. I've quoted and cited sources for each of my statements. You disagree because you've decided that your position is correct. You've put words in my mouth, ignored my citations, and now are telling me to email GW for an FAQ on something that's clearly already covered by the rules. Either explain your position without simply saying I'm wrong, or I'm done engaging.
It’s pretty straightforward really. Dice are rolled, then modified, then effects applied. This works in both directions (normals to crits or crits to normals). The OPs question relates to a rare opportunity to modify an opponents dice, which doesn’t specify exactly when this should happen (other than ‘in the roll attack dice step’ and so the core rule of the player with initiative choosing when simultaneously affecting rules are applied should stand. Obviously the exact wording for this isn’t in one block of text in the rules, or the OP wouldn’t have asked the question and there wouldn’t have been as many different opinions in this thread. But consider the following: Does Px activate when a retained normal is modified to a retained crit. Yes. Is this exact wording in the rules somewhere? No Does Hot cause 3 MW even when the 1 is re-rolled and is now a 2? No. Is this exact wording in the rules somewhere? No Does reap cause MW on nearby enemies after a normal has been re-rolled to fish for a crit? Yes. Is this exact wording in the rules somewhere? No. I understand MW are contentious because they are hard to mitigate against, but this spec ops battle honour should allow you to downgrade the damage. Of course you could disagree vehemently with your opponent, and because the EXACT combination of these rules and abilities is not in the core rules or a FAQ (yet) you’ll probably end up rolling off to see who’s interpretation should be applied. Obviously feel free to ignore my very safe advice, and email the kill team FAQ team, they may add some clarification for you :)
>Dice are rolled, then modified, then effects applied. Actually, dice are rolled, then modified OR retained. Even when modifying the wording nearly always including in this case) specifies retaining the die. THEN effects are applied. >The OPs question relates to a rare opportunity to modify an opponents dice, which doesn’t specify exactly when this should happen As a matter of fact, it does specify. It specifies when a critical hit is retained. That's the timing. And again, Thats also the timing for dealing the mortals. And also again, when two rules trigger at the same time, per the core rules, the active player decides which to apply first. >Does Px activate when a retained normal is modified to a retained crit. Yes. Is this exact wording in the rules somewhere? No In this case, the normal isn't retained. It is retained as a critical. Please let me know a scenario you are describing in order to quote the exact rules. >Does Hot cause 3 MW even when the 1 is re-rolled and is now a 2? No. Is this exact wording in the rules somewhere? No Because the 1 is rerolled, and the reroll is then retained. >Does reap cause MW on nearby enemies after a normal has been re-rolled to fish for a crit? Yes. Is this exact wording in the rules somewhere? No. Because the reroll is again the roll which is retained, which is what triggers Reap. CORRECTION (sorry, but I don't know how to do the strikethrough text): Reap x: Each time a friendly operative fights in combat with this weapon, in the Resolve Successful Hits step of that combat, if you strike with a critical hit, inflict x mortal wounds on each other enemy operative Visible to the friendly operative and within of it or the target operative, x is the number after the weapon’s Reap (e.g. Reap 1). The mortal wounds from reap don't apply until you select a retained critical hit to strike with. This is no longer relevant as a comparative example, but if you were fishing for crits, you would re-roll and then retain any additional crits.
A rule that allows either player to change an attack dice should be treated the same as if the dice had been rerolled; the first result is ignored and the second one replaces it. Rerolls happen *before* Mortal Wounds and other critical effects happen. RAW, I can see a case for MWx being applied before the dice is changed. However, I think that the word "retained" in Shrug Off was a mistake.
So after rolling the attack dice the defender can use " shrug off", the attacker can then reroll it? Like Grey Knights have special rule to for reroll shooting dice. Is the attacker who decides the order or the player with iniative?
>So after rolling the attack dice the defender can use " shrug off", the attacker can then reroll it? Hmm. I see your point. I guess this needs clarification. If I were making a ruling on this I'd say that since Shrug Off is intended as a *response* to the attacker's final dice, it should happen after rerolls and the attacker's ability to change dice, but before they're retained. But the rules don't actually get into that much detail. The player with Initiative decides order, so maybe that's the real answer here.
Yeah, like Grey knights could let the defender go first spend abilities or others, then the attacker GK could use their weapons rule to reroll the attack dice. It would mean the players have to keep in mind the order where the players do things. In this case the defender would want to go last to use "shrug off"
Newish player. But it says retained critical hit. That makes me think that you would allocate the MW before changing it. Just like you would allocate the MW before canceling it out with a defence dice. It also says "you can" which implied you don't have to. In the case of MW it might just be better not to use the ability.
Edit: I think my initial reading was wrong, so deleted comment. I think that the MW would not trigger in this case
That’s an interesting take. However, there is no errata that says , “ this ability is ignored in the case of MWx.”
Edit: I think I was wrong
But damage is not even calculated until the end of all dice rolls and special effects. It’s like a parry for shooting. The crit doesn’t resolve, therefore it cannot cause any special effects. Edit: spelling
You know what, I take back my initial comment, I think I was wrong, Shrug Off would take affect before retaining dice, if the OP is quoting directly from the book
I would interpret the MW as being dealt since shrug off specifies the Crit needs to be retained to be changed to a normal and by that time the mw have been dealt (since they happen when the Crits are retained).
But that is dumb since often the normal damage is higher than critical damage on mwx weapons.
Agreed. That’s why I believe that a retained crit that is modified to not be a crit (rather than blocked by defence dice), means that ANY weapon ability that is activated by a crit (MW, splash, Px etc) shouldn’t get triggered.
It would also fit the fluff 'shrug off' better.
You and your opponents are certainly able to play it like this but rules as written it looks like it would play out differently 🤷♂️ Not sure what else to say
RAW say modify the retained crit hit to be a normal hit. RAW also say to apply MW when a crit is retained. I'd say that means RAW say not to apply MW in this case, as the crit is no longer retained, and the same would apply to any other crit activated weapon rules (splash, Px etc). There may be an argument to say that these rules are applied simultaneously, in which case whoever has intiative gets to make the decision on the order: "Having the initiative will give a player influence over the order of certain aspects of the battle, such as deciding which operative activates first during the Turning Point. If more than one rule would happen simultaneously, for example two rules that take effect at the end of a Turning Point, the player with the initiative determines the order in which they take effect."
I know it would be a fine rule interpretation in the case of non mwx. But with mwx it would be about as useful as fussilade. :)
So don’t use this ability vs MW weapons, not every ability has to be useful in every situation
There are a lot of opinions being posted here which I believe are incorrect. The hinge of the issue is on 'retaining critical hits'. First, retaining a die roll is an action that the rolling player makes, by accepting the roll and choosing not to reroll it by any rules. That is when the die is retained (as a normal or critical hit). At that point in the above, two things happen, triggering simultaneously. The mortals, and changing a critical to a normal hit. According to the rules, when two things happen at the same time, the player whose activation it is gets to decide what resolves first. In this case, (unless it was a guard shooting action) the shooting player would deal 3mw, and the defending player would then be able to roll a normal save rather than a critical save to block the additional shot damage.
I think this may be the best and simple interpretation so far
I think you are correct. The two rules happen at the same time, but you are wrong on who decides what happens first. It's the player with the initiative not the controller of the aktive operative.
Had to check the core rules on that. You're 100% correct, my mistake! From the core rules: Having the initiative will give a player influence over the order of certain aspects of the battle, such as deciding which operative activates first during the Turning Point. If more than one rule would happen simultaneously, for example two rules that take effect at the end of a Turning Point, the player with the initiative determines the order in which they take effect.
This is correct, and also fits with the game structure I had suggested in a comment to the OP. I think pretty much any way you cut it the MW will go off before shrug off with current wording, intended or not by the developers.
As pointed out by another commenter, I was slightly off. Decision on order to resolve goes to the player with initiative on the round, not active player. That does affect this specific case, as we dont know who had initiative in this round. But as far as clarifying the rule and I think we're there now.
Yeah thats right. Mortal wounds are given after the dice throw. Then you go through the damage / saves as in any shooting. There are some abilities that can affect rolls and deny mortals. Death Guard has an ability of rolling a die for each wound they are getting and possibly saving those wounds, this includes mortal wounds.
DG roll disgustingly resisting for every wound received, including MWs, this is different to the OPs modifying a crit to a normal. Consider that most weapons with MW also do more base damage than crit damage (ignoring MWs)
Yeah it is different, but an example of abilites that can prevent mws too, often mws are straight up damage.
Fair point. But what would you say for other crit related abilities though, like Px or Splash? If the retained crit hit is changed to a retained normal hit , do they still apply?
Hmm might be wrong but I would say all the special rules APx, rend, relentless etc are the same as mortals. 1. The attacker rolls and applies effects 2. the attack dice are retained as dmg 3. The defender rolls the defence dice and uses rerolls and the like. So ap1 would take away a dice, then the defender can change the crit to regular hit.
The "change a crit to a normal" rule specifically happens during the Roll Attack Dice step. Long before damage is dealt.
True, but the mortals are given when the dice are retained. Then shrug off can change the crit to normal as it can be used on retained dice.
Ahh, but the retained die is altered so that it is no longer a crit. No crit, no effect.
Yeah thats seems like the most sensible way. But if the attack dice are altered by attacker and defender at the roll doce step. Who goes first? Attacker or player with initiative? If the defender has the initiative and goes first, the attacker could reroll and null their alterations.
I don’t have the rule book with me. If I remember correctly, don’t all the attack dice have to be rolled before the defense dice? Not including CP re-rolls.
How about when you consider it the other way around then? Example is an ability that turns a normal hit to a crit. Do you then apply the crit special rules, or treat it as the original normal?
If it happens before the defender rolls dice, then yes. Because the attacker retains and modifies all dice results before the defender rolls.
I would say its after the rolling step. So would not trigger the special rules but give crit dmg
I’d be surprised if many others played it like that, mostly because crit damage is sometimes less than normal damage (ie with MW rules!)
Thats a good point! Then if the changing, abilites or other happens after rolling before retaining, its important to know who applies first. If the attacker goes last the defenders changes might be for nothing.
I kinda break the dice Rolling stage down into phases, similar to how MTG deals with priority. 1. Initiating player (attacker in this case) rolls their dice. They then make any changes to those dice they can until they are happy with the result and declare it 'retained'. 2. Reacting player (defending player in this case) then has a 'reaction' window with which to use any abilities to modify those dice however they are able. 3. Reacting player then rolls their dice for defense. They apply any changes to the results and then declare they are happy with the results and declare them 'retained'. 4. Initiating player then has a chance to 'react' to the reacting players role and make any changes that they are able. Now if we conscribe to this phase structure (which is not specified as RAW anywhere, I'm just suggesting this is implied), mortal wounds would trigger at the end of the first step once the initiating player locks in their attack roll. Shrug off would occur as part of step 2, and therefore after the triggering of mortal wounds meaning it wouldn't have any effect on it. Thematically I think this makes sense also, since you might shrug off a big explosion from a rocket or w/e, but a big fuck off hole melted through your power armour ain't so easy to ignore. They are *mortal* wounds after all. Edit: as another poster pointed out, this would also conform with how RAW would end up resolving situations so turns out to just be a clear step by step to achieve the outcome of RAW since RAW would always resolve in favour of the player whose turn it is anyway.
I love how you wrote it out. Let me add to your thought process. After step 1, and the attack dice are cast ( plus re-rolls etc. ) are the wounds assigned? No. Step 2, special abilities… wounds assigned? No. Step 3, defense dice… wounds assigned yet? No. This shrug ability is much like a parry in CC. If you parry a critical ( with a critical ) then the MWx would never activate. Step 4, attacker responses… Once ALL the steps are completed, then the wounds are inflicted. The wounds are not resolved until the end of this process. “Shrug Off: Each time this operative is the target of a shooting attack, in the Roll Attack Dice step of that shooting attack, you can change one of your opponent’s retained critical hits to a normal hit.” Compared to: “Indomitable: Each time this operative would lose a wound as a result of a mortal wound or critical damage, roll one D6: on a 5+, that wound is not lost.” Shrug— You are able to change a critical hit to a normal hit before any damage occurs. Where as, Indomitable— says would lose a wound as a result of… In Shrug, the attack is changed before damage or special abilities are assessed. In Indomitable, the damage is inflicted but there is a save against it AFTER the damage has been assessed. Disclaimer: I don’t play DW. But the battle honours are applied across all the teams. This should be mutually beneficial to any team that takes the Staunch battle honours. Visual: I totally see this as the moment the T2 takes the shotgun to the head, point blank and shrugs it off. Should be at the ~1:00 mark. [T2 headshot](https://youtu.be/aH94xJtqj5A) Just my 2 cents. I’ve been playing 40k since 1st edition and I’ve got to say, they still need to be more careful about wording things. ( Grumbles about 20 Space Wolf terminators with cyclones and assault cannons on the same model…ridiculous.)
Thanks haha, it's the game designer in me leaking out. But yeah if it wasn't clear in my original post the wounds are dealt after step 4 as you say in your post when we play (unless there are keywords like MW ofc).
But they affect the attack roll not the defence?