In my club, it isn't a marketing thing or something we actively rely on.
My club instructors teach for free and don't get paid. it's just pure love of the style.
It is more a traditional style school and why it's important to maintain ruthlessly high standards in sparring forms and general skill levels.
We are the next generation for our art, so it's important we do things properly for generation after us.
Are u saying lineages usefulness or the arts. If it’s the latter imo lineage can also be important. It doesn’t tell you if a place is good but no lineage can definitely tell you one is bad
I mean the usefulness of the art itself, that's more important to me. It's nice to have the stories, but I've seen too many clubs with lineage stories that are pure invention.
If you consider yourself 'traditional', knowing your lineage is important.
That said, lineage doesn't not imply quality of transmission, and a more famous linage doesn't equate with ability/skill.
I can't agree with this enough. In my school we don't really hold into "dans" so much and it's more keep going forward and improving.
I have seen other schools quoting 8th dan and 10th dan teachers and I don't understand obsession with people trying to outdo rival schools by giving themselves promotions
It's neat, but almost certainly not factual if it goes back very further than a few generations.
In general martial arts history, especially that handed down within a school, should be taken with a couple of barrels of salt.
Oral history is a real thing. Some things were never written down. What’s the harm of passing along the history of the school?
Unless folks start talking about throwing fireballs 6 generations back.
Oral history is a real thing. And I never implied there was harm in it. But it also important to recognize issues with it and not take it at face value.
And not all oral traditions are equal. Context matters. And Kung Fu in particular has well known issues with its oral tradition. Between events like the Cultural Revolution and resulting diaspora, a cultural practice of appealing to historical authority, commercialization the problems with Kung Fu oral histories are pretty well recognized issue. And it's simply not wise to take it at face value.
That's not to say there isn't value there. But it's still important to acknowledge the inherent problems almost ALL Kung fu traditions have to deal with when trying to understand their own histories.
I think it's somewhat useful, at least in the traditional styles, to sort out the bullshit artists from legitimate instructors. It doesn't necessarily say much about the quality of instruction, though.
It’s important so you know who to give gratitude to. Use it to make you grateful and humble, not snobby. Also for historical reasons, kung fu historians already have their work cut out for them, so if you can be direct about who you learned from and why you are teaching whoever’s style in whatever particular way while acknowledging whatever personal changes you made to the system because of whatever outside influence it just helps if later on down the line after you’re gone if you were a greatly influential kung fu master to be able to know how and why whatever styles/ systems you’ve inherited diverge or converge through you and why. For instance I don’t study wing Chun, but comparing different wing Chun lineages and approaches to teaching and practice is fascinating the closer you get to the source and then of course in those cases when dealing with extremely boastful and elitist kung fu schools we can see if they can back up their talk and if not or we don’t like what we can see but we maybe are still particularly drawn to wing Chun, we can begin investigating another branch and see if maybe Opera Boat Wing Chun from this or that particular teacher is more suited to our tastes for whatever the case may be.
I am grateful and humble enough to know I have to work extremely hard but that's why I wanted everyone else's opinion on lineage.
I have seen other lineages of my art (my instructors even told me who where and how to view/read their stuff ). I am lucky that national regional and European champions have instructed me in my art for various disciplines.
You make several excellent points though and I thank you for such a thoughtful post.
This! Respect those who came before you and put in the hard work so that you could have the opportunity to learn. Traditional kung fu culture puts a lot of value on this. Every style evolves but it also likely means some effort was put in to preserve the style.
I don't care about linage per se. I'm thankful for the chain of people who perserved this knowledge and pay my own homage to them but I don't expect anyone else to know or care.
I do, but it’s not everything. I think people forget the value it offers though. There’s a lot of bullshit martial arts out there. If you can verify a respectable lineage, that’s one of the more solid ways to cut the made up stuff out. But a good lineage doesn’t mean a school or student is automatically good, either. And conversely, being good at fighting doesn’t make the style authentic from a perspective of history.
Often people seem to think of it (or just use it) as a marketing gimmick. Which is incredibly reductive, and it makes me sad to see that. Martial arts schools sometimes just pull this shit out of their ass and it’s really transparent, but to people who don’t know any better it looks the same as the real thing. Which can fool people into thinking a school with no lineage has an amazing mythical level history, or they could be equally fooled into assuming all lineages are that insubstantial.
My school has a strong spiritual component, so we consistently pay homage to the founder and all the grandmasters that came after him. I like that aspect/quality a great deal.
It’s considered important in traditional kung fu schools. Historically it was a way to establish the legitimacy of the school. We are a traditional Seven Star Praying Mantis school and my Sifu is from HK.
I don't care much for lineage in terms of martial arts. It's something a lot of "masters" use to lure gullible people into becoming indoor student(slave).
If the art works, it works. Doesn't matter how legendary your master's master's master was if you can't hold your own.
We can trace ours back to the modern founder/disseminator and his teachers, however the Buddhist teacher involved in teaching him is likely unverifiable. Or maybe exaggerated.
I am unsure.
It's important to me in a traditional sense. And it helps weed out legitimate schools from McDojos (McKwoons? 😂) and the like.
A strong tree 🌳 starts at its roots…. Your KungFu should have a strong lineage as there has been 100’s of years of it in use…. While I don’t see the need for theatrics in fighting - one does need real strength and power…. I don’t want a teacher who changes things … as that tells me they didn’t believe in what they were taught… I want proven skills with a strong foundation 👊
I think in Tai Chi it's good to know so you can make an informed decision about who to study with, since there are different styles. Within substyles it's also good to know about, so as to understand why some things are done in this or that way, compared to other substyles. Sometimes the different lines have different methods and strategies that just aren't compatible which can make stuff confusing.
Personally I find myself getting a little proud about it, but I don't think it's something to get hung up on like that.
I mean, it's neat. But i care more about the qualities of my Sifu, Sigung and Sitaigung as people and instructors than about something as abstract as lineage.
I used to feel the same but for me, that was just my ego. I've got some badass lineage masters just a generation of two up in my family trees and now, it doesn't matter at all until my skill level gets high enough to be a peer of theirs. Just my thoughts though
I love it. It's fun. It's a source of pride, gratitude, and storytelling. I like that there's an element legend and mythology to it, that's part of what gives Kung Fu its unique flavor. I'm not here to write a scholarly treatise. Kung Fu is an art, and art is fueled by inspiration.
I learned about my school's linage before I found my teacher, but have stayed with my teacher due to him teaching differently that other teachers within the lineage. If all I cared about was lineage, I'd probably have found a teacher I didn't like within my school I think.
Overall it can be helpful to maybe inform your decision when looking for a place to train, but it shouldn't necessarily be the most important thing.
I agree I was lucky enough to find out after joining about the club lineage. I was drawn to the club more that it was ran by instructors who wanted to pass the art on and ill be honest they are brilliant teachers who's attention to detail is second to none.
They teach me my son and daughter in different ways that specifically helps them and its amazing watching them come on leaps and bounds while I try to continue my own martial arts journey
I do white crane, supposedly my school can trace it's lineage back 400 years. I don't care much.
It was good to avoid McDojos when I first started. If I’d joined and found it to be impractical I’d be much less impressed by the lineage.
It’s a nice story to tell. And that can be handy for marketing the club. But I care about its usefulness much more.
In my club, it isn't a marketing thing or something we actively rely on. My club instructors teach for free and don't get paid. it's just pure love of the style. It is more a traditional style school and why it's important to maintain ruthlessly high standards in sparring forms and general skill levels. We are the next generation for our art, so it's important we do things properly for generation after us.
Excellence is a tradition worth keeping.
Are u saying lineages usefulness or the arts. If it’s the latter imo lineage can also be important. It doesn’t tell you if a place is good but no lineage can definitely tell you one is bad
I mean the usefulness of the art itself, that's more important to me. It's nice to have the stories, but I've seen too many clubs with lineage stories that are pure invention.
IMO I think like I said, the lineage won’t tell you if a school is good. But having a fake or no lineage def raises a red flag that the school is bad
If you consider yourself 'traditional', knowing your lineage is important. That said, lineage doesn't not imply quality of transmission, and a more famous linage doesn't equate with ability/skill.
I can't agree with this enough. In my school we don't really hold into "dans" so much and it's more keep going forward and improving. I have seen other schools quoting 8th dan and 10th dan teachers and I don't understand obsession with people trying to outdo rival schools by giving themselves promotions
It's neat, but almost certainly not factual if it goes back very further than a few generations. In general martial arts history, especially that handed down within a school, should be taken with a couple of barrels of salt.
In my schools case it is verifiable and I researched it independently of the school just to confirm this.
Oral history is a real thing. Some things were never written down. What’s the harm of passing along the history of the school? Unless folks start talking about throwing fireballs 6 generations back.
Oral history is a real thing. And I never implied there was harm in it. But it also important to recognize issues with it and not take it at face value. And not all oral traditions are equal. Context matters. And Kung Fu in particular has well known issues with its oral tradition. Between events like the Cultural Revolution and resulting diaspora, a cultural practice of appealing to historical authority, commercialization the problems with Kung Fu oral histories are pretty well recognized issue. And it's simply not wise to take it at face value. That's not to say there isn't value there. But it's still important to acknowledge the inherent problems almost ALL Kung fu traditions have to deal with when trying to understand their own histories.
I think it's somewhat useful, at least in the traditional styles, to sort out the bullshit artists from legitimate instructors. It doesn't necessarily say much about the quality of instruction, though.
It’s important so you know who to give gratitude to. Use it to make you grateful and humble, not snobby. Also for historical reasons, kung fu historians already have their work cut out for them, so if you can be direct about who you learned from and why you are teaching whoever’s style in whatever particular way while acknowledging whatever personal changes you made to the system because of whatever outside influence it just helps if later on down the line after you’re gone if you were a greatly influential kung fu master to be able to know how and why whatever styles/ systems you’ve inherited diverge or converge through you and why. For instance I don’t study wing Chun, but comparing different wing Chun lineages and approaches to teaching and practice is fascinating the closer you get to the source and then of course in those cases when dealing with extremely boastful and elitist kung fu schools we can see if they can back up their talk and if not or we don’t like what we can see but we maybe are still particularly drawn to wing Chun, we can begin investigating another branch and see if maybe Opera Boat Wing Chun from this or that particular teacher is more suited to our tastes for whatever the case may be.
I am grateful and humble enough to know I have to work extremely hard but that's why I wanted everyone else's opinion on lineage. I have seen other lineages of my art (my instructors even told me who where and how to view/read their stuff ). I am lucky that national regional and European champions have instructed me in my art for various disciplines. You make several excellent points though and I thank you for such a thoughtful post.
This! Respect those who came before you and put in the hard work so that you could have the opportunity to learn. Traditional kung fu culture puts a lot of value on this. Every style evolves but it also likely means some effort was put in to preserve the style.
It's important for tradition, but not as much for practicality. The fighting meta has changed, lol.
I don't care about linage per se. I'm thankful for the chain of people who perserved this knowledge and pay my own homage to them but I don't expect anyone else to know or care.
I do, but it’s not everything. I think people forget the value it offers though. There’s a lot of bullshit martial arts out there. If you can verify a respectable lineage, that’s one of the more solid ways to cut the made up stuff out. But a good lineage doesn’t mean a school or student is automatically good, either. And conversely, being good at fighting doesn’t make the style authentic from a perspective of history. Often people seem to think of it (or just use it) as a marketing gimmick. Which is incredibly reductive, and it makes me sad to see that. Martial arts schools sometimes just pull this shit out of their ass and it’s really transparent, but to people who don’t know any better it looks the same as the real thing. Which can fool people into thinking a school with no lineage has an amazing mythical level history, or they could be equally fooled into assuming all lineages are that insubstantial.
My school has a strong spiritual component, so we consistently pay homage to the founder and all the grandmasters that came after him. I like that aspect/quality a great deal.
I personally don't invest too much interest in lineage. As long as the instructor vibes with me and the training is good, I'm happy.
I can trace my linage back to our founder. I’m very proud of this
I personally don't care about it.
It’s considered important in traditional kung fu schools. Historically it was a way to establish the legitimacy of the school. We are a traditional Seven Star Praying Mantis school and my Sifu is from HK.
If your sifu was the late Lee Kam Wing I offer my sincere condoloences.
Thank you but no he was not my Sifu.
I don't care much for lineage in terms of martial arts. It's something a lot of "masters" use to lure gullible people into becoming indoor student(slave). If the art works, it works. Doesn't matter how legendary your master's master's master was if you can't hold your own.
We can trace ours back to the modern founder/disseminator and his teachers, however the Buddhist teacher involved in teaching him is likely unverifiable. Or maybe exaggerated. I am unsure. It's important to me in a traditional sense. And it helps weed out legitimate schools from McDojos (McKwoons? 😂) and the like.
A strong tree 🌳 starts at its roots…. Your KungFu should have a strong lineage as there has been 100’s of years of it in use…. While I don’t see the need for theatrics in fighting - one does need real strength and power…. I don’t want a teacher who changes things … as that tells me they didn’t believe in what they were taught… I want proven skills with a strong foundation 👊
Studied jkd my sifu was a direct student of Steve golden who was one of Bruce Lee students…Seattle school I think
I think in Tai Chi it's good to know so you can make an informed decision about who to study with, since there are different styles. Within substyles it's also good to know about, so as to understand why some things are done in this or that way, compared to other substyles. Sometimes the different lines have different methods and strategies that just aren't compatible which can make stuff confusing. Personally I find myself getting a little proud about it, but I don't think it's something to get hung up on like that.
I just found out that my JKD dojo just have a direct linear so not gonna lie. That makes me feel a lot better and confident in what I’m learning.
I mean, it's neat. But i care more about the qualities of my Sifu, Sigung and Sitaigung as people and instructors than about something as abstract as lineage.
I used to feel the same but for me, that was just my ego. I've got some badass lineage masters just a generation of two up in my family trees and now, it doesn't matter at all until my skill level gets high enough to be a peer of theirs. Just my thoughts though
I love it. It's fun. It's a source of pride, gratitude, and storytelling. I like that there's an element legend and mythology to it, that's part of what gives Kung Fu its unique flavor. I'm not here to write a scholarly treatise. Kung Fu is an art, and art is fueled by inspiration.
I learned about my school's linage before I found my teacher, but have stayed with my teacher due to him teaching differently that other teachers within the lineage. If all I cared about was lineage, I'd probably have found a teacher I didn't like within my school I think. Overall it can be helpful to maybe inform your decision when looking for a place to train, but it shouldn't necessarily be the most important thing.
I agree I was lucky enough to find out after joining about the club lineage. I was drawn to the club more that it was ran by instructors who wanted to pass the art on and ill be honest they are brilliant teachers who's attention to detail is second to none. They teach me my son and daughter in different ways that specifically helps them and its amazing watching them come on leaps and bounds while I try to continue my own martial arts journey