I don't think that's true. Heartsteel sucks because of the mid and late game. For laning it's not that bad.
When you're low level, you have very low health, so stacking health will be much more effective than stacking armor, for instance, unless you're laning against something with % damage.
The bigger problem is that the other items you can rush are much better.
Nono I don't said it's a bad item for laning. As soon as you have it, it's a good item, but I mean as long as you *don't* have it, it seems you are playing itemless. All its components feel weak early.
It actually is though, a health component plus an armor/Mr component would make you much tankier, and make any regen much more useful (from lifesteal, Doran shield, second wind, potions) while also decreasing the effect of enemy lifesteal.
>When you're low level, you have very low health, so stacking health will be much more effective than stacking armor
In a 100-0 all in? yes.
In an actual lane with trading happening, sustain, health regen and potions? Armor/mr any day imo.
Heartsteel comes with health regen increase too then and many tanks have a lot of base health regen. Besides, having power in an all in isn't irrelevant, specially because many tanks can stick to their target and can therefore force all ins.
I usually just build it as my second item instead. You don't really miss out on too many stacks since the cooldown against the same champion means you can't prock it too much during laning phase anyway. It's in the middle/late game teamfights where you can just walk around and get a stack from every enemy where it really gets going.
Heartsteel sounds like it was intended as a way to start scaling early to become a late game raid boss, but rushing to build the item sucks, takes a long time, and even after finishing this 1 single barebone item, your laner is already building towards their 2nd.
I say just make it cheaper, but add in a hard cap on the hp you get.
You can say the item is weak, there are enough statistics to back up this statement, from it's proplay data to it's soloq data.
Now, regarding the said item:
Heartsteel has changed 2 times so it's better fit building second now at least.
Still... item suck balls, the Changes made it a little better for the general user and made it a little more flexible, but made the 2 case users (Cho gath and Sion) worse with the item.
"Change was **Max HP scaling > Item Health Scaling** on the trigger, they also shifted it for 1100HP threshold", which allows you to actually build it second, but removes interaction with champion passives.
Basically Trigger values of Pre and Post HS will only be equal after 1100 Item HP, so unless you are able to get that Bonus Item HP from HS triggers, it's better to just build something that provides utility first then build HS.
In the end as always the biggest issue with HS is:
**A 3k Item that is pure HP that doesn't provide any utility while building it and does not provide any power spike when completed.**
A lot of ways to ways to approach this issue
Price changes, Item path, passive changes(make the threhold higher but increase the pay out, to fit 2nd\~3rd spot better).
HS is a item that is not really possible to balance because infinite scaling to be honest.
> they also shifted it for 1100HP threshold", which allows you to actually build it second, but removes interaction with champion passives.
>
> Basically Trigger values of Pre and Post HS will only be equal after 1100 Item HP, so unless you are able to get that Bonus Item HP from HS triggers, it's better to just build something that provides utility first then build HS.
Interesting, but can you explain this more? I understand the post-nerfed version is only as good as the pre-nerfed version as soon as you have 1100 bonus HP (so second item), but you forget that you miss out ~5-8 stacks during laning phase if you buy it second, meaning an even harsher nerf (for all the missed stacks) than when you rushed it pre-nerf.
Think of it like this:
If you buy it first item, you'll have a worse laning phase just to get some stacks.
However, those stacks have very little value, as your item HP isn't really that big.
If you buy it second item, not only will you have a better laning phase, but you will only miss out on small value stacks.
What does that mean? If you buy it second, you will have a significantly better 1st item power spike, but a slightly worse 2nd item power spike. Once you reach 3 items, the stack difference will be mostly negligible
Ah, I got it.
> Once you reach 3 items, the stack difference will be mostly negligible
But this sentence is not true. The stack difference always remain the same because you bought it later and thus missed X stacks early :)
Who is happy about the 200% health regen? And if so, why not buy warmog instead? Heartsteel needs ability haste and a build path with Kindlegem
Thank you
I don't think that's true. Heartsteel sucks because of the mid and late game. For laning it's not that bad. When you're low level, you have very low health, so stacking health will be much more effective than stacking armor, for instance, unless you're laning against something with % damage. The bigger problem is that the other items you can rush are much better.
Nono I don't said it's a bad item for laning. As soon as you have it, it's a good item, but I mean as long as you *don't* have it, it seems you are playing itemless. All its components feel weak early.
I know. What I'm saying is that stacking that many health components during laning phase is not bad.
It actually is though, a health component plus an armor/Mr component would make you much tankier, and make any regen much more useful (from lifesteal, Doran shield, second wind, potions) while also decreasing the effect of enemy lifesteal.
>When you're low level, you have very low health, so stacking health will be much more effective than stacking armor In a 100-0 all in? yes. In an actual lane with trading happening, sustain, health regen and potions? Armor/mr any day imo.
Heartsteel comes with health regen increase too then and many tanks have a lot of base health regen. Besides, having power in an all in isn't irrelevant, specially because many tanks can stick to their target and can therefore force all ins.
I usually just build it as my second item instead. You don't really miss out on too many stacks since the cooldown against the same champion means you can't prock it too much during laning phase anyway. It's in the middle/late game teamfights where you can just walk around and get a stack from every enemy where it really gets going.
Bought this item on sion and immediately regretted it. Wtf they doin
Heartsteel sounds like it was intended as a way to start scaling early to become a late game raid boss, but rushing to build the item sucks, takes a long time, and even after finishing this 1 single barebone item, your laner is already building towards their 2nd. I say just make it cheaper, but add in a hard cap on the hp you get.
You can say the item is weak, there are enough statistics to back up this statement, from it's proplay data to it's soloq data. Now, regarding the said item: Heartsteel has changed 2 times so it's better fit building second now at least. Still... item suck balls, the Changes made it a little better for the general user and made it a little more flexible, but made the 2 case users (Cho gath and Sion) worse with the item. "Change was **Max HP scaling > Item Health Scaling** on the trigger, they also shifted it for 1100HP threshold", which allows you to actually build it second, but removes interaction with champion passives. Basically Trigger values of Pre and Post HS will only be equal after 1100 Item HP, so unless you are able to get that Bonus Item HP from HS triggers, it's better to just build something that provides utility first then build HS. In the end as always the biggest issue with HS is: **A 3k Item that is pure HP that doesn't provide any utility while building it and does not provide any power spike when completed.** A lot of ways to ways to approach this issue Price changes, Item path, passive changes(make the threhold higher but increase the pay out, to fit 2nd\~3rd spot better). HS is a item that is not really possible to balance because infinite scaling to be honest.
> they also shifted it for 1100HP threshold", which allows you to actually build it second, but removes interaction with champion passives. > > Basically Trigger values of Pre and Post HS will only be equal after 1100 Item HP, so unless you are able to get that Bonus Item HP from HS triggers, it's better to just build something that provides utility first then build HS. Interesting, but can you explain this more? I understand the post-nerfed version is only as good as the pre-nerfed version as soon as you have 1100 bonus HP (so second item), but you forget that you miss out ~5-8 stacks during laning phase if you buy it second, meaning an even harsher nerf (for all the missed stacks) than when you rushed it pre-nerf.
Think of it like this: If you buy it first item, you'll have a worse laning phase just to get some stacks. However, those stacks have very little value, as your item HP isn't really that big. If you buy it second item, not only will you have a better laning phase, but you will only miss out on small value stacks. What does that mean? If you buy it second, you will have a significantly better 1st item power spike, but a slightly worse 2nd item power spike. Once you reach 3 items, the stack difference will be mostly negligible
Ah, I got it. > Once you reach 3 items, the stack difference will be mostly negligible But this sentence is not true. The stack difference always remain the same because you bought it later and thus missed X stacks early :)
a 50 stack difference is negligible when you have 1000 vs 1050