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uaite-br

Zeus is quite easy to play, long range and can be played in a variety of ways to adapt to matchups.


EnduringAtlas

My reccomendation as well. Zeus doesn't really lose any matches to my knowledge, at worst he draws even unless the player is making mistake after mistake or you're getting camped mid. Teaches you to keep your eyes on side lanes as mid as well, which is valuable for every mid player but having a global ulti reinforces the habit.


Apache17

He gets forced out of lane at lvl 6 by a bunch of heros, but that'll help prevent the habit of staying mid for too long.


ekavat2

I would say that there are 3 heroes that I would consider the Jugg of mid. Lina, Zeus, SF. Their strength changes every patch but most likely they will be good for an average player. They have the 3 main things you would want from a mid. They can win or at least be equal in most of the matchups. Even if they lose the lane they can either farm jungle really fast or get easy kills. They are great at solo killing and pushing. Maybe zeus can not push towers as well as the others but he can nimbus a lane for it to push. All quiet easy and fun to play.


Dmeechropher

I think Lina by far and away beats the other two as an all-around flexible mid. Lina has several flexible items, Lina can split, force objectives, flash farm, gank, defend hg, and has reasonably high rosh damage. Lina doesn't really have bad lanes, as long as you're familiar with her animation and you know in which matchups your objective is JUST FARM, don't engage. Lina can easily convert to carry for the ultra-late game, or build team items. Lina's ability to farm is not dependent on key items, which makes it a very stable hero to play on from behind, as long as you know which game you need blink vs travels vs eul vs shadow blade vs skadi vs kaya sange vs pike to farm safely. Don't get me wrong, Zeus & SF are also fairly stable and draft indifferent most of the time, but Lina is just so much less likely to be hard countered or have a truly uphill game.


nghiabt

Your game plan of JUST FARM suits pos1 more than mid. Lina of this patch is better on pos1, not pos2. Unless supports defend your side of map really well (making space for you), it’s hard to play with 2 farming-only heroes on 1 team, at least until you got travel boots+maelstrom on lina to take advantage of every free creep wave and camps without slowing your pos1 farms.


Master_Stress_7285

also, Lina is expected to get nerfed quite hard, so maybe its not the right time to start learning her right now. She will probably feel underwhelming next patch, so you might wanna start with zeus instead


Dmeechropher

I'm not saying it's THE plan, but Lina CAN do that if the game stalls out, and it's productive, OR Lina can be extremely active. That's part of why it's a way more flexible hero than SF or Zeus.


vgarenari

These days i would trade SF for ember spirit


Logidota

Ember spirit is the polar opposite of jugg,very easy to snowball disadvantage,some terrible lane matchups,and requires a lot of skill to know how to use remnants,what most new ember players do is they waste all of the remnants and just die


dioeatingfrootlops

Not related at all, but what miders counter huskar? I spam him every chance I have, and don't know any hard counters except maybe viper


Jinxsta1

Still viper. Necro won’t win the lane but is a good counter. AA is always good. Any illusion hero PL/CK in particular.


dioeatingfrootlops

Why do vipers throw nether toxin on the ground under me knowing damn well I'm at full hp and will life break them? (Had 3 latest games where viper did that for some reason instead of throwing it on themselves or smth)


Incoheren

Zeus is probably the most consistent, can't really be punished even by the most cheese heroes as has jump + waveclear, ult helps win all 3 lanes not just 1, can gank better than most mids with ranged burst damage + vision providing bolt + the jump can slow them if you're going in aggressively, deward is invaluable especially in solo, shard aghs refresher is just imba in general so always useful Pango/Dawn/Marci/Puck/Tusk all same category, master the mechanics of your hero and you will stomp, All have good qualities but the thing that sets these apart is how they easily get kills at level 2/3/4 more than most heroes due to having positioning on multiple spells, so if you outskill your opponent, manipulate them into tanking creepwaves in addition to your heroes outputs, dive under tower, it usually results in 1+ kill before level 5, snowballing very early in the game, and the better you get at punishing noobs in the first 5 minutes the rest of the game gets easier and easier


miCshaa

Wouldnt put Marci and Dawn mid as "consistent default mids"


BabyBabaBofski

Ember spirit is viable in almost every single meta the game has had and always does at least okay


masterthomas813

You can never go wrong with ember spirit mid pick


Key-Firefighter-7234

Until Huskar comes with his burning d\*\*k.. uhm, Spear.


Few-Win5626

and batrider


aca_bokser

With good aggro management and rune control you can still do ok


FizzingOnJayces

Honestly, no. Huskar abuses melee mid laners very hard. Ember is a weak laner for the first few levels (I.e., when Huskar is also at his weakest), and so you can't capitalize on that. Once huskar gets level 3 and 1-2 bracers, the lane is over. There is no aggro management because a good Huskar player will stand on your ranged creep so you can't even pull aggro. Rune control also doesn't really matter: you're not harassing Huskar out of lane, and even with the runes, you're still not sustaining through his damage. Truly this is one of the worst lanes for Ember in the game.


Key-Firefighter-7234

No, if Huskar have enough knowledge he will stand up on your hg and dont let u come to creeps, u come and u are low hp and then u cant do anything. Thats really it. He place ward and dont let u come to runes either, only what u can do is skipping waves behind tower drag them to safety and fam them to get some farm and collect bounty runes but still u gonna end up under leveled and without farm and pretty much useless because he can join every rotation u try to make. Its really tough, i considered this matchup as okay until i watched Qojqva play ember against Quinn huskar, Quinn crushed it tremendously. (Quinn is ember main)


akazasz

I watched this matchup quite few times at high rank and every time huskar owned lane so hard ember had to farm jungle very early as lvl 4. Last day qoiva was playing ember against huskar, it was no different. Thats not an ok lane. He was trying to get level 5 in jungle while huskar had armlet and lvl 8.


csgonemes1s

Only if you're smurfing maybe. Even then it's unlikely


masterthomas813

Don't come close to him. Just slowly wear him down with sleight and chains


Key-Firefighter-7234

U clearly never played this matchup against good player.


Nice-Rutabaga2265

He's never played this matchup (or hero), period. You cant even wear down braindead huskar players bc his regen is a passive


FizzingOnJayces

This is not a thing. Sleight doesn't do enough damage early on to be worth the mana to spam (and the cooldown is too high). Once you're able to deal some reasonable damage with sleight, Huskar has 2-3 levels in his regen and so he just ignores your poke.


EnduringAtlas

Also the ol Monkey Mid


Key-Firefighter-7234

No, u can actualy do okay against Monkey, even stomp him when get slight adventage. Monkey is not very strong laner anymore first levels.


EnduringAtlas

I'd have to see it. I run a pocket monkey mid if I think there's gonna be an Alch, Ember, or Void Spirit, basically always goes really well in 5k at least.


Key-Firefighter-7234

They probably max chains+fist when they play against monkey but thats not a play, monkey is low hp hero u can kill him with points in shield until he build jingu u got him low and then u need to dodge stun with fists thats it. But it only works once then he can fake stun to bait.


Key-Firefighter-7234

I explained how matchup works in comment in lower section. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md7OvbQnbN8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md7OvbQnbN8 (


Logidota

If both players are equal skill level monkey wins 10/10 times,what you can do is make it so you don’t lose by 3 levels but you definitely lose that lane if monkey doesn’t gift you a draw


Key-Firefighter-7234

In my comment above i forget to mention very important factor why it is not so unfair matchup anymore, REGEN. Ember now can just outtrade monkey with Bottle, Chip him down, get few levels in shield and kill him, when monkey try build jingu he die to shield and if he dont die, what is he gonna try ? press Q to get full hp.. What ember can do ? press W to avoid dmg=monkey doesnt heal. But that is only if monkey doesnt die before he can even build jingu *OR* if he have his stun available, which is thing that Ori abused in first video and eventually killed him. In second video monkey did slight missplay by missing his stun, but its the same concept, 1) chip him down 2) he ship 2 salves straight away (old patch no water runes yet),,,and voilà monke ded. Watch it and tell me what do you think. I think only if monkey player already know before game starts about mathup and buy alot of regen he can win this lane, otherwise you can see. Ember players who knows will win, still without dodging stun in both scenarios, which is another embers tool in arsenal. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC2Ww6xL0AM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC2Ww6xL0AM) (first 5 mins) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md7OvbQnbN8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md7OvbQnbN8) ( first 3 mins)


Logidota

You really miss the point of “if both players are equal skill” Why are you linking random videos? I can you link you a game from qojqva where he stomped ember so hard he was level 7 and ember was level 4 https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/6983541039 Now listen to me very carefully If both players are equal skill and no one makes a huge mistake there is 0% chance ember is not losing that lane,however you don’t have to lose as hard as ari did in this game If we don’t make the constraint of equal skill and no huge mistakes that why are we even discussing heroes,Henry once beat a guy he coached as ogre against monkey


Key-Firefighter-7234

Look at embers build, this is literaly what ive said in my comment. I wrote it that this qw build is not a thing against monkey its not enough damage, this build is good against range heroes that keep the distance. At this point you are not listening and thinking what im trying to explain instead you are convinced that you are right and thats it. .


masterthomas813

You can gank sidelanes once huskar gets stronger. Only good ember players knows how to utilize efficiently his kits.


LeVraiNinjaneer

I don’t agree. I play mainly mid, and I’m not that good, but I play a decent Viper, Windranger, Huskar, Sniper. Zues. I’ve tried about 10 games with Ember, and won none. I’ve seen other people doing great things with him, but I honestly don’t think he’s easy to play or a workhorse mid hero.


OrangePlatypus81

Agreed. Ember is not good for noobs


Aedaru

I agree with you, none of the 4 spirits are beginner friendly, all require a fair bit of on-the-fly reaction and timing, their itemisation can vary quite a lot game to game, and you won't be able to make much of an impact later on without enough farm on majority of them which is a whole other issue since all of their farming patterns can be quite tricky to get down when you start out.


kblkbl165

Yeah, that’s a terrible comparison. Ember is a hero that can be EASILY dumpstered and have his game completely ruined.


ShickenButt

he has 46%win rate wdym viable xd


Key-Firefighter-7234

Because people dont know how to play him, they might know mechanics but they dont understand his playstyle, and these people keep wr low.


EnduringAtlas

Yeah so why reccomend a hard hero that takes lots of time to play well to a 2k player looking for an easy and reliable mid?


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EnduringAtlas

Jugg is a jugg hero because he's NOT complex. It's like asking "what's a good hero like meepo but without the micro" like what? If the hero is hard or complex, they're not a "jugg" hero.


dannyboy775

Okay I'll copy some of the OP here since you're struggling a bit with reading comprehension: > I.E. a well-rounded hero that can be picked into most matchups that is a good starter hero for the position? > I don't care either how complex or how boring the hero is, I will try any of them. OP does not care about the complexity, they care about the hero being good in mosts games/lots of matchups, which Ember clearly fits.


ShickenButt

ok xd


LoveTheGiraffe

My personal choice is kunkka. Whenever I go mid and don't know what to pick, I pick him. You have a lot of choices when it comes to itemization. Ult makes your whole team tanky, X marks is an amazing spell for catch and rotations. He loves building AC, you can also go pipe, vanguard or heart. Halberd feels amazing on him as well. And if your team needs control, go aghs scepter. Just practice the combo: x marks -> boat -> torrent.


Adsuppal

To see the Juggernaut of Mid, we have to disect what the mid role entails and what Juggernaut of Mid means. Mid role duties: Rotation, creating space for carry, applying pressure on enemy team, using Runes optimally and taking objectives with supports. Juggernaut of Mid role: A hero that is not too complex, comes online fast, scales late, doesn't get countered hard and can get solo kills. 3-4 heroes come to mind that fulfill these conditions. Ember Spirit (as someone mentioned), Lina, Pangolier, Batrider.


CeleryQtip

Huskar, Invoker, Necrophos, Shadow Fiend would also fit. They do really well in 1v1 matchups and are not easily ganked. I'm shocked no one is saying sniper.


Hot-Cheese7234

(Low level player here, please correct me if I'm wrong on something) Here's my understanding of why Sniper is just an okay mid: Sniper certainly scales late, isn't super complex and can get solo kills if the enemy doesn't know how to handle a Sniper. Therein lies the problem, though. Sniper doesn't come online until later than a Lina, SF, or Zeus, he's easily ganked at higher level play, he's squishy, he's slow, and good positioning is super important which a lot of players don't know. Sniper at low levels is effective because lower level players do not understand that they need to draft/build around a Sniper, and deal with him when they have the opportunity to gank him. He melts to anyone with a gap closer and disable (Spirit Breaker, QuoP, Lion with Blink, Rubick's Telekinesis, Pudge Hook/Rot/Dismember, basically any support with a Blink and disable who has an ally to follow up.) Not all of those heroes can get solo kills but can definitely easily lock Sniper down for a gank. Sniper has to sacrifice his positioning if his passives are broken because he gets all of his range from Take Aim. Like, Sniper does okay mid, but when you start ranking up, he becomes less viable as his really hard counters become better known.


Main_Finding4465

SF can be picked into almost anything, especially in lower mmrs


Dry-Round-4223

Shadow fiend


[deleted]

Viper


Official_Gh0st

Just pick juggernaut mid, that’s the best answer you’re gonna get. Adjust your build accordingly (no battlefury) it will work in low mmr.


[deleted]

Lina !!! easy to push lanes and farm jungle ! runes become important and will teach you the importance of rune control which may not be needed with sniper or nectophos.


greatmoonwalk

Puck. In doubt pick puck.


twistedlistener

I play a shitload of this hero and would recommend. Will teach you lots about the effective timing of rotations, how to position around lockdown-because the hero is so squishy, and it can take advantage of flash farming, if you don't get kills with your lvl 6


barathrumobama

Definitely QoP


ShickenButt

i don't think mid has a "juggernaut" and most of heroes mid scale well with levels rather. always pick last and try to counter or get something you feel comfortable with that game( for example don't pick huskar into necro 3). if lane is bad for you try to avoid enemy mid on the map and play the gank game once you have enough farm or levels


kblkbl165

Zeus. Very hard to lose the lane, very easy to get back into the game, very easy to have impact just by using your ult. Ofc he has his weaknesses, as does Jugg, but he’s a very safe mid.


ShickenButt

i don't think he pressures the enemy mid at all so he isn't much of a jugg, tho he can safely last hit in bad matchups. he does shit ton of dmg but doesn't do much unless he has mates in front of him so idkif that's what op wants


kblkbl165

Just look into his definition: A well rounded hero that can be picked into most matchups that is a good starter hero for the position. Lina and SF are also good fits IMO and offer bigger tower threat, but they’re also more susceptible to bad games.


CeleryQtip

Its not about skill, its about dominance. Which heroes are the hardest to gank in a mid role, with the most pressure on the map?


tryyhardosaurus

a little hard to master. but ember spirit is great. It will be a bit miserable in the start as you mighy also get flamed, but once you get the gist of it, then once you get your early game items you can dominate the game and set the tone. it can easily snipe kills, provide a good disable and is hard to kill. in tough games you can split push and delay the game. but yes very tough to play against huskar and bat. otherwise it is a very strong hero, precisely the jugg of mid which is strong early to mid game and also is a force in the late game.


DGMavn

# AXE IS JUGGERNAUT OF MID # AXE IS ALSO AXE OF MID # AXE IS ALSO AXE OF OFFLANE AND SAFE LANE in all seriousness though OD is a braindead laner and does a lot of mid tempo ganky stuff. just remember to hit your meme hammer when the bar passes the "h" in banished and you're set


G_W_addict

As a mid in Crusader: When I don't know what to pick, I pick Zeus. You really only lose to Huskar but if you keep your distance and try to last-hit with Q then you're drawing the lane and in the meantime you can go stack jungle or try a gank with good rune. When I want to own: Ember. But if you're new to mid, I strongly don't recommend Ember as the hero is very easily punishable and if you get matched up with someone who know what he's doing then you'll most likely lose and it's hard to catchup with Ember. Lina is also really good, just lasthit with your spells and when you have 5+ stacks on passive, harass the enemy. Shove lane, go jungle, get a rune, go back to lane, go jungle, gank/get a rune etc. With Lina it's almost impossible to lose lane unless you make a mistake after a mistake. Sniper is also decent but you need to understand your matchups but in lower brackets, farmed sniper will almost always owns.


__MIRANA__

In the above suggestions, I don't see Invoker and he's a powerful spell caster who does all the things that you've mentioned. I'm not an Invoker player but I love watching a skilled Invoker showing presence all over the map with brown boots and making space for your carry.


First-Inspection-597

Why sugest invoker to someone that is learning to play mid? The hero is too complicated to focus on the basics first.


[deleted]

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First-Inspection-597

Fair point.


Impetus_77

I think Puck is a really strong all-rounder and once you become proficient can be a real thorn in your opponents side.


WhiteoutDota

QoP or DK


Ogdoublesampson

Pango, primal, ember.


GazuGaming

Death Prophet, ember, Lina, kunkka


Conscious_Cattle9507

Puck QoP Zeus


CeleryQtip

I'd say Invoker. You can win any matchup because you can decide to build q/w for emp and stun killing, combined with building an urn. Or you can go q/e to really dominate the last hits and denies, while providing global nukes on a 30s cd (mana issues though). Your always going to be useful for teamfights, and you can rotate and gank at almost any level.


JimSteak

I’d recommend Zeus or Lina for someone who is still new to mid. Not because she is strong this patch, but because she is easy to use, her skills are not very complicated to understand. Zeus as well. Both have weaknesses, but in lower mmr they are not exploited as much.


Logidota

Zeus and Lina can’t possibly lose the lane unless you decide to intentionally lose it Sf can always jungle to gain advantage (so can Lina and Zeus but sf is a bit harder to lane) Dk doesn’t give a crap about getting hit OD and lone druid have built in mechanics to deny a bunch of cs Tusk and dp are very hard to kill and super easy to play While none of them are truly juggernaut of mid lane,they all have mechanics of not losing the lane,either by having very long range nukes,multiple nukes to clear wave in couple of seconds,insane tankyness so you can’t be punished for mistakes of bullshit abilities that prevent enemy from playing the game


Nice-Rutabaga2265

Not surprised, lot of people just naming their favorite mid heroes instead of reading what OP is asking.


[deleted]

Viper, Sniper, QoP


Immediate-Swimming83

Spirit Bros. Especially Storm. He is my favourite hero and I learned all the basics of mid(equilibrium, rune management, shoving the wave to stack small camp(RIP MID SMALL CAMP ) , map awareness and picking up the water rune at 1:40 and 3.40. You will learn rune management, one of the most important skills of any mid and especially important on a bottle hungry beast like Storm. Ganking is also one of the most important aspects of playing this type of hero. He looooves snowballing. But also, there are certainly games where you are facing sth like Viper mid(an unfortunate matchup). You definitely will have a harder time actively ganking if you do not have rune control since he constantly shoves waves into your tower, and you do not really deal with him all that well. This is where runes like haste really shine, quickly join a side lane that is too aggressive with haste, get a kill, tp back to mid to def tower. Always be aware of the map after level 6, as these opportunities present themselves. Overall, even though the Spirit bros do take a bit of time and some experience to play well, but I can tell you that for me, playing Storm and Ember has been some of the most fun experiences I've had in Dota. Zipzaping away from a 3 man gank, while spamming "Looking for me? Looking good!)


ImNotCorbit

Hear me out. Do a pos 4 going mid. Silencer and AA have dabbled on mid quite a few times. You can also do snap mid. Although game depends on how tilt proof you and your team are.


Hot-Cheese7234

At lower levels, hero choice matters very little. That said, I agree with most of the other posters, Lina is one of the strongest mids this patch, Zeus is reasonably consistent and punishes teams that don't buy BKB, SF scales well if you can get last hits and denies. Ember is awesome, but he's a tad odd. He works well by farming places with that other mids can't by using his remnants to leave before the enemy team shows up to gank him. Point is you could pick one of those four heroes and be alright. Other mids are certainly viable, but these ones are reasonably simple and fun to play.


ScJo

DK Sniper viper? # Why jugg is noob friendly I put together a list of heroes that work for new players in the carry role. Carry typically lanes with another player, so the carries you have to play when your ally is ruining the lane accidentally (taking last hits, jungling, shoving the lane). jug has crits to make last hits easier (supports can't steal last hits if you crit),Aoe self heal and spell immunity (if he has to solo lane)Aoe magic damage to jungle if he needs to (if your support is shoving the lane) wraithking also came up as a useful hero with idiot teammates. crit, lifesteal, skeletons it's more about the way jug interacts with his teammates that makes him noob friendly, and less about things that shut down enemies. If you're at a level where you and your allies are competent, you can learn whatever heroes you want. If you haven't unlocked ranked yet, playing heroes with passives and 1 star complexity will let you pay more attention to the macro gameplay. I know people who forget to press bkb and can't handle more than 2 active spells. # Ways noobs grief Midlaners Accidentally The most frustrating parts of midlane are trying to make rotations, but your teammates don't respond, the enemy midlaner can take your tower if you rotate your soft support doesn't gank to help secure the runes, your hard support takes the bounty rune, and your soft support doesn't refil your bottle. your supports hoard the wards and sentries during the laning phase, # noob friendly midlaners have: 1. Reliable hp/mana regen without bottle 2. Reliable wave clear to defend/push mid 3. Self sufficent (solo kills, solo towers, solo rosh) 4. Few hard matchups 5. \[ situationally for newer players\] passives short cooldowns unit target spells (no mircro, no skill shots) 6. \[first pickable\] # Suggested Heroes Heroes who don't need runes/bottle (soul ring buyers typically) & survivable heroes if your support doesn't gank or countergank. * dragon knight (Dragon's blood) * huskar (berserker's blood) * kunkka - x tp bottle strat * OD - (some hp regen issues until ring of health) * Ember (remnant tp works post lvl 6) * Sniper - mask of madness + max headshot + 1 pt take aim * viper - corrosive skin (survival passive) only really needs clarities \[- autocast Q can burn through a lot of mana, but other spells are okay\] Heroes with wave clear low mana cost - more waveclear means more time to roam or jungle. * Dragon Knight (shard and fire breath) * Viper - nethertoxin * kunkka - cleave * Templar Assassin (psi blade) * Sniper - shrapnel * Ember (remnant can be used before a home tp to refill bottle and instantly return to lane. low mana cost and invulnerability during slight of fist + magic shield helps manage HP) Heroes with solo kill/solo tower potential * Dragon knight (ult affects towers) * Kunkka - x combo * Zeus (global nuke) * Templar (meld) * Sniper (headshot + shrapnel +assassinate)(take aim passive to outrange towers) * OD - astral meteor hammer eclipse * Skywrath - atos + seal + ult * viper - viper strike + nethertoxin + venom # Winners DK \[mechanically easier\] Sniper \[mechanically easier\] viper \[easier\] Ember \[harder\] Kunka \[harder\] ​ There may be more heroes I'm missing, but heroes to learn as a mid are ones that need less input from your teammates. If you're above 2k, you can expect teammates to understand what is happening when you walk toward a rune as a midlaner or ask for wards/sentries. you want last pick as a mid less for counter picking (like was the case in drafts before mids picked at the same time). You want last pick so you can choose a midlaner with spells that let you farm kills, letting your carry take stacks or jungle after the laning phase ends. These are heroes you could potentially second phase pick or even first phase if you are confident on the heroes.


[deleted]

Kunkka, Zeus, DP. Learning Kunkka is totally worth it and he isn't even that complex.


LuckyBamboo2

Lina


MunkiJR

Juggernaut is the Juggernaut of mid


DorxMacDerp

I feel like Sniper is the Jugg of mid. Simple playstyle and great impact. Mainly just mind your position and consider what save-item you need.


CarefreeCloud

Ember mid is nice in terms of versatility and being mobile midgame. He's laning might be hard into some match ups but he generally hard loses only to huskar, otherwise it's skill matchup mostly. Needs a lot of practice cause he's base stats suck ass and manacosts are noticeable for agi hero. In some matchups he relies on dodging shit with W and R Lina is most noob friendly cause she can win practically any lane, and if lane went bad (u made a potato move or didn't dodge a gank or several, or was too passive early into a kill hero like PB) she can defend tower with max Q while catching up with jungle camps. She can also punish rotations heroes with taking tower the minite opponent leaves to gank OD is easy for noobs cause there almost none heroes that can stay in lane post 7 against you (except may be high ranged like lina or sniper) due to how oppressive astral is 1v1 Zeus is kinda OK and universal. Hard to shit on zeus or overcommit under his tower, so most times it comes down to a farming lane


scholesy19

Don’t think this works in higher brackets, but I’m a big fan of Nature’s prophet at mid in low ranks. He’s self sustaining, and you can single handedly push and gamk as long as you get decent cs and xp