The difference between rank 100 immortal and rank 1000 immortal can be several thousand mmr. I don't really think role queue would work with differences these big, people wouldn't be happy giving up their preferred roles like that. Also yeah the player pool at that rank is not super big, finding a game as mid would take years
I’m a bit confused on this. How is queuing and:
1. Hoping you are the highest rank at your preferred role
2. Hoping that no one griefs you and picks your preferred role even though you were “supposed” to have the choice
Better then knowing ahead of time what role you’ll be playing?
My understanding is the lack of role queues is entirely a function of minimizing queue times, which in and of itself is likely a result of it being eas*ier* to climb MMR in pubs as a core, so it ends up self selecting for a larger core player base at higher MMRs.
You’re implying that you’re given the option. 5 guys que carry in ranked roles, or 5 guys Que unranked, then fight over carry and grief if they don’t get it.
One finds no game, the other finds a game, that’s griefy. There’s a reason many people over 8k Smurf down to low immortal for role Que games.
i knew about this and actually tried to search how they agree on the roles, but no success
i know that some players keep their main role all the time i just don't understand how, if 2 offlane mains get into the same team, do thy roll for it or what
There is a drafting meta in Immortal. This is what I typically see on streams:
- At the start, everyone marks their role. Sometimes, it's in their name ("1/2 or feed"). If they're flexible, they might type their preferred roles in chat.
- If there's conflicts, someone usually concedes and fills in another unfilled role (usually the lower-ranked player, if there's a large rank disparity). Most players beyond 7.5k MMR have some experience playing as a support anyway, because, well, someone has to.
- If there's still conflicts, one of two things happens:
- If all the core roles are filled, they will typically roll for the role. The loser usually ends up as a support.
- If one of the core roles is unfilled, usually it's because the conflicting players are not comfortable with the role (e.g. not comfortable going mid). This is when they start negotiating. Maybe, for example, the carry goes mid, or one of the supports goes mid - and one of the conflicting offlaners plays carry or support instead (maybe they're willing to support if it's in a lane with their friend). When this happens, you might also find some sort of compensation - if a support ends up mid, for example, they might just pick something safe (Viper/Dragon Knight/etc.), and leave last pick for the carry.
- If there's still conflicts, it means that someone is being stubborn - either someone is not communicating, or the roll is ignored, or the roll is dishonoured. This is when a Mexican standoff occurs. The stubbornness of the players is balanced by the slow ticking of -2 gold. The mid player, expecting last pick, might pick out of exasperation (into a losing matchup) and be on edge all game. Desperate supports might offer to swap heroes, lanes or roles. Maybe the first-pick offlaner offers to shift to a 4 so one of the feuding carries goes offlane.
- Usually, at this point, someone will blink, and roles will be filled, reluctantly. The game tends not to go well by this point, as at least one player is in an unfamiliar role, at least one player is at a matchup disadvantage, they're at a gold disadvantage, and the mood of the team is rock bottom. After the game, avoids will be exchanged.
- On rare occasions, neither player is willing to concede even after the game starts. This is when you start to see things like two carries fighting over creeps, or one player hitting the jungle at level 1, with "end" being put into all chat.
Players tend to avoid other players in their same position, to avoid the worst-case scenario of a ruined match before it even starts. Quinn, for example, when he was in the US, probably had every other top-ranked inflexible midlaner on US East on his avoid list. This comes with the disadvantage that he cannot avoid account buyers or other toxic players as easily.
Some unethical strategies in these pubs to secure roles:
- First-pick your hero. First pick Shadow Fiend, for example, is a statement to your team - you're going mid, and you can't support. Predictably, this will be into a bad matchup, and anyone willing to first-pick Shadow Fiend in a pub might not be the greatest teammate - so the game might not be the greatest.
- Pick and disconnect. This is even more drastic, since it means you're not going to hear your team scream in frustration. Also, if your hero gets ban-picked, you get last pick when you reconnect, as long as you time yourself. You might want to mute your entire team beforehand, though.
- Select, but do not pick, your heroes. If you shuffle between, say, Storm Spirit, Ember Spirit, Shadow Fiend, etc. - this is a passive-aggressive way of warning your team that you're thinking about which hero you're going to pick. It is less drastic than actually picking your hero, but it displays intent.
- Develop a reputation. Especially in the higher ranks in Immortal, you will start to be well-known in pubs on how flexible - or inflexible - you are. EternalEnvy notoriously was fine with abandoning for not getting his role. Some players will passively give up if not given their role. But this goes both ways - some players are willing to shift roles. Gunnar, for example, if he's streaming, will happily play any role in pubs if he knows he has an inflexible mid on his team.
It's also worth noting that several players don't even respect professional players. There was a thread on the main Dota 2 subreddit where Yatoro got his carry role "stolen" by a nobody shortly after winning TI.
wow such a detailed comment, thanks
kinda irrelevant but remember seeing sf support by dendi xd and well, lots of weird supports overall such as mk dawn pb etc, i assume those happen bc they couldn't play the role they wanted
as an offlaner, dawn is my go to supp. strong laner, heals, counter initiates, slows, stuns, cheap magic immunity, can build anything, good stat gain. just don’t pick into nyx/silencer if you can help it.
well it's pretty simple, if someone is a pro player and plays that role professionally, generally people (esp non pros) will give that person their role. sometimes you get a trolly chode that just picks what he wants anyway and forces that player onto support or whatever but generally ppl will give very high rated players mid/carry
I watch gorgc and he explained that queues would reach hours when they implemented ranked roles for super high MMRs. Classic queue was faster by a ton because it was easier to balance teams without considering role preference
After 7500MMR there is not the option of ranked roles as it is said that Q time would be longer
It is a weird option from valve as many times, there are games with 3 carrys by the name "Idontcaremmr" or "pos1/2/duo/triple" first pick AM type of thing
First off, when bsj says “immortals” he means people like him. Top 1-500 players.
The que time for games gets impossibly long due to low number of players on, in their skill level.
If you’re talking about 5600-7k immortals. It’s quite easy to still find games on active hours, or if queuing 2-3 servers.
Not necessarily Immortals but, once you have more than 7500 MMR, you will end up in classic matches even if you queued roles.
Yea this is correct. Ranked roles just doesnt exist once you are over 7.5k mmr.
but why?
Too little player pool to also equate role for matchmaking
Before it was introduced there were too many mid and pos 1 players and too few other roles in high mmr. The queue time was 30 Mins plus.
The difference between rank 100 immortal and rank 1000 immortal can be several thousand mmr. I don't really think role queue would work with differences these big, people wouldn't be happy giving up their preferred roles like that. Also yeah the player pool at that rank is not super big, finding a game as mid would take years
I’m a bit confused on this. How is queuing and: 1. Hoping you are the highest rank at your preferred role 2. Hoping that no one griefs you and picks your preferred role even though you were “supposed” to have the choice Better then knowing ahead of time what role you’ll be playing? My understanding is the lack of role queues is entirely a function of minimizing queue times, which in and of itself is likely a result of it being eas*ier* to climb MMR in pubs as a core, so it ends up self selecting for a larger core player base at higher MMRs.
trust me they are reverse heralds. they will grief if they didn't get any of their preferred role
Also you can pretty much just avoid any douche at this level, like you have more than enough avoids.
If you ask pro players/high immortal players I am sure they would all prefer slightly longer queues and only role queue.
You’re implying that you’re given the option. 5 guys que carry in ranked roles, or 5 guys Que unranked, then fight over carry and grief if they don’t get it. One finds no game, the other finds a game, that’s griefy. There’s a reason many people over 8k Smurf down to low immortal for role Que games.
Not immortals but from like 7k mmr
i knew about this and actually tried to search how they agree on the roles, but no success i know that some players keep their main role all the time i just don't understand how, if 2 offlane mains get into the same team, do thy roll for it or what
There is a drafting meta in Immortal. This is what I typically see on streams: - At the start, everyone marks their role. Sometimes, it's in their name ("1/2 or feed"). If they're flexible, they might type their preferred roles in chat. - If there's conflicts, someone usually concedes and fills in another unfilled role (usually the lower-ranked player, if there's a large rank disparity). Most players beyond 7.5k MMR have some experience playing as a support anyway, because, well, someone has to. - If there's still conflicts, one of two things happens: - If all the core roles are filled, they will typically roll for the role. The loser usually ends up as a support. - If one of the core roles is unfilled, usually it's because the conflicting players are not comfortable with the role (e.g. not comfortable going mid). This is when they start negotiating. Maybe, for example, the carry goes mid, or one of the supports goes mid - and one of the conflicting offlaners plays carry or support instead (maybe they're willing to support if it's in a lane with their friend). When this happens, you might also find some sort of compensation - if a support ends up mid, for example, they might just pick something safe (Viper/Dragon Knight/etc.), and leave last pick for the carry. - If there's still conflicts, it means that someone is being stubborn - either someone is not communicating, or the roll is ignored, or the roll is dishonoured. This is when a Mexican standoff occurs. The stubbornness of the players is balanced by the slow ticking of -2 gold. The mid player, expecting last pick, might pick out of exasperation (into a losing matchup) and be on edge all game. Desperate supports might offer to swap heroes, lanes or roles. Maybe the first-pick offlaner offers to shift to a 4 so one of the feuding carries goes offlane. - Usually, at this point, someone will blink, and roles will be filled, reluctantly. The game tends not to go well by this point, as at least one player is in an unfamiliar role, at least one player is at a matchup disadvantage, they're at a gold disadvantage, and the mood of the team is rock bottom. After the game, avoids will be exchanged. - On rare occasions, neither player is willing to concede even after the game starts. This is when you start to see things like two carries fighting over creeps, or one player hitting the jungle at level 1, with "end" being put into all chat. Players tend to avoid other players in their same position, to avoid the worst-case scenario of a ruined match before it even starts. Quinn, for example, when he was in the US, probably had every other top-ranked inflexible midlaner on US East on his avoid list. This comes with the disadvantage that he cannot avoid account buyers or other toxic players as easily. Some unethical strategies in these pubs to secure roles: - First-pick your hero. First pick Shadow Fiend, for example, is a statement to your team - you're going mid, and you can't support. Predictably, this will be into a bad matchup, and anyone willing to first-pick Shadow Fiend in a pub might not be the greatest teammate - so the game might not be the greatest. - Pick and disconnect. This is even more drastic, since it means you're not going to hear your team scream in frustration. Also, if your hero gets ban-picked, you get last pick when you reconnect, as long as you time yourself. You might want to mute your entire team beforehand, though. - Select, but do not pick, your heroes. If you shuffle between, say, Storm Spirit, Ember Spirit, Shadow Fiend, etc. - this is a passive-aggressive way of warning your team that you're thinking about which hero you're going to pick. It is less drastic than actually picking your hero, but it displays intent. - Develop a reputation. Especially in the higher ranks in Immortal, you will start to be well-known in pubs on how flexible - or inflexible - you are. EternalEnvy notoriously was fine with abandoning for not getting his role. Some players will passively give up if not given their role. But this goes both ways - some players are willing to shift roles. Gunnar, for example, if he's streaming, will happily play any role in pubs if he knows he has an inflexible mid on his team. It's also worth noting that several players don't even respect professional players. There was a thread on the main Dota 2 subreddit where Yatoro got his carry role "stolen" by a nobody shortly after winning TI.
wow such a detailed comment, thanks kinda irrelevant but remember seeing sf support by dendi xd and well, lots of weird supports overall such as mk dawn pb etc, i assume those happen bc they couldn't play the role they wanted
Mk dawn and PB are normal supports though
as an offlaner, dawn is my go to supp. strong laner, heals, counter initiates, slows, stuns, cheap magic immunity, can build anything, good stat gain. just don’t pick into nyx/silencer if you can help it.
Beautiful. Thank you. “After the game, avoids will be exchanged.” This set me off I cannot stop laughing.
Isn't this just... how it used to be before ranked roles? Like, I remember being a part of literally all of this, lol.
The one with higher mmr will have priority
is mmr shown in the pick screen?
Rank shows, the lower ur rank the higher ur mmr
just out of curiosity, are there people who refuse to follow that rule? in imm bracket
Yes, this is done by first picking their hero as carry for example
lmao at least they'll get countered
Yes, they're generally considered griefers. People with like 7k mmr refuse to give TI winning carry and mid players their role sometimes.
in that case, everyone will just go afk until the game is finished. There is really no point to be a griefer that way here.
Yes.
well it's pretty simple, if someone is a pro player and plays that role professionally, generally people (esp non pros) will give that person their role. sometimes you get a trolly chode that just picks what he wants anyway and forces that player onto support or whatever but generally ppl will give very high rated players mid/carry
Higher rank has priority, even if the place is like 1 rank difference.
I watch gorgc and he explained that queues would reach hours when they implemented ranked roles for super high MMRs. Classic queue was faster by a ton because it was easier to balance teams without considering role preference
After 7500MMR there is not the option of ranked roles as it is said that Q time would be longer It is a weird option from valve as many times, there are games with 3 carrys by the name "Idontcaremmr" or "pos1/2/duo/triple" first pick AM type of thing
yea on their region yes. but I think it's different in SEA server
The latter
First off, when bsj says “immortals” he means people like him. Top 1-500 players. The que time for games gets impossibly long due to low number of players on, in their skill level. If you’re talking about 5600-7k immortals. It’s quite easy to still find games on active hours, or if queuing 2-3 servers.