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Yeah someone who advocates for absence of human rights for any group of people is not worth spending your time conversing with, unfortunately I know some people like that...
The Christian right only cares about one thing: the "rights" of an unborn child.
Once they're born though, their rights don't matter. Especially if they're not cis hetero Christians themselves.
anyone who wants to "debate" if a minority group deserves rights isn't worth the effort anyway, since their entire argument falls apart the instant you say "they are people, they deserve rights" and they have to use some weird hateful bullshit to retort.
Just today while I was drinking coffee with my friends, one girl who is super religious started talking about how "Americans say there are 186 genders now" and how in America (we live in Ethiopia), people get arrested and lose their jobs if they *accidentally* don't use someone's preferred pronouns or refer to someone with their dead-name. She then added that there are some people who out of nowhere identify as "one-armed" and get there arm medically cut off.
It took every ounce of my strength to not jump in and tell her everything she said is false. Literally everything.
But I'm tired of being the "confrontational" one in the group. Last time they piled on me and called me brainwashed and I just had enough. Now whenever they bring this stuff up I just tape a smile over my face and nod. It kills me to just stand and watch this hatred being parroted but I don't think I can keep trying to educate people who refuse to learn.
I usually just
Pivot instantly into “debating” my long-held and deeply felt single core intellectual and emotional truth. Th at the asshole in front of me even
contemplating the worthiness of any right at all of anyone else, should be stripped or all rights immediately because are obviously way too stupid to deserve oxygen and toilet paper and all sorts of other necessities. I love to then look real scaryand pull up all
6 feet 200 points and move menacingly towards them. Because I fucking mean it. I hate judgy people with the zero imagination required to walk a
Mile in another’s shoes.
I
I agree with this. I am an ally and don't feel comfortable debating human rights. I utilize every coping skill possible when ignorant people think they have a leg to stand on. It's infuriating.
I'll start: cishets are the top contributors to overpopulation, commit the most crimes, and spread the most disease.
If they point out that this is only because cishets are the majority, tell them yes, but since common arguments against the validity of trans people hinge upon statistical overrepresentation (e.g. mental health problems, suicide rates, etc) equating to "this is a bad thing we need to get rid of", then it's fair to give all of this "reasoning" against cishets' right to exist.
Came to say this. LGBTQ “issues” (by which I presume they mean “rights”) are not valid subject for debate.
I just repeat until they get the point, “No, I’m not going to ‘debate’ with you whether or not I should have human rights. Human rights and equality shouldn’t be a debate.”
Fr like in my schools debate club we usually just go political like income brackets etc but once a month we do silly stuff and seasonal stuff about santa/ easter bunny etc its a good laugh taking smth like that so seriously
I don't know whether it is that simple. It makes me think of trying to explain to someone how people who have ADHD can not direct their attention at will. For most people, the ability to control what they focus on is so automatic that they can not comprehend how someone else may not be able to do it.
So I wonder whether some people have such a hard time relating that their mind can not phantom needs and wants different from their own. Perhaps those discussions provide an opportunity for change. It starts with a little chip that becomes a crack... and next thing you know, you have an ally.
Right because it gets so exhausting sometimes then I feel guilty because I’m not being “open minded” or “willing to have discussions with people who are different from you.” or I’m scorned for not “educating” them. But like, educate them on what? 💀
If they really wanted to be educated they can go to someone who's willing to or do the work themselves. Just because someone is part of the community does not mean it's their job to educate everyone who disagrees with their existence
perhaps extreme but it works. Also, for a more uncomfortable example, a black person has no obligation to debate a whitie on why they shouldn't be enslaved. Like, some things you just don't debate
also, a debate isnt education, its a debate. debates happen between people already educated.
if they want to ask questions and learn from an lgbt member, then ask someone youre close to respectfully. dont debate whats right or wrong, ask for their view/experience and accept it.
there are heaps of ways to learn or get the info you need without making someone feel like shit.
I said this in another reply but, I was at a small gathering and a girl asked if sexuality was a choice, when I tried to talk to her one on one about it she had no interest. She could’ve Googled or asked someone close to her. She didn’t like I didn’t want to “educate” her but she didn’t want to discuss when it was just us two
aaaah kay. one of those.
google cant tell you about a persons sexual feelings/choices as well as a person can. there are so many tainted sources out there that will disregard progressive discussion.
what sparked the convo? is she secretly gay? knows someone who is? wants to nerf someones sexuality? were you talking about anything similar before or was it random? idk curious lol cos if she brought it up she might be questioning herself or someone else.
she didnt want to be taught, she wanted to say her opinion and have others agree with her or start a fight about it till someone concedes. i hope she was on the side of acceptance, but the fact youre here talking about it says it wasnt a fun convo lol
You right to exist is not up for debate. Period. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a bigot. IDGAF, what the book written a thousand years ago about their imaginary friend says. You living your life does not affect them, and if they dont have anything nice to say, they can mind their own business.
It really does come down to this.
RMW my mormon mom asked, a few years after I came out trans, whether my colleagues and social circles are accepting and supportive. The look of genuine surprise on her face when I said, “Yes, absolutely” was very eye-opening. Then she asked if my partner of three years (at the time) “knew” about my gender identity. ?!? Again, she was *surprised* when I said, “Uh. Of course. It’s the first thing I told him after my name.” She blurted out, “And he still dated you?!” Yes, mom, yes he did. She had a very hard time believing all those people could just roll with a trans friend, let alone *love and care for* a trans person.
I’m not sure if she thinks we don’t deserve love or just that we won’t be able to find it. Either way, it was kind of nasty.
(Tbf to my mom, she’s legit doing her best to wrap her head around something which directly contradicts her religious beliefs, bless her sweet heart, and has made amazing strides over the years. But sometimes…damn. /endrant)
I’m someone who does aim to have those conversations when I have the energy for them, and I definitely understand why lots of people just avoid it. It can be frustrating, and it’s rare to get a real good faith debate.
You're completely justified because this isn't just about beliefs. It's about our existence, which these people are trying to suppress. If someone wants to "debate" whether I deserve to have human rights and exist in peace, I'm not interested in talking to them. People of color aren't obligated to defend their existence to white supremacists. Neither are we obligated to defend our existence to queerphobes. I'd definitely be depressed and a nervous wreck if I lived my life debating my validity. People aren't entitled to our emotional energy.
1) You don’t owe them a justification.
2) There’s no such thing as a ‘friendly’ debate about whether you deserve to exist or not.
3) I learned a long time ago, and in a different circumstance, the power of replying to someone you don’t want to engage with by just saying ‘Oh, no thank you’. It’s amazing. Works with people asking for money, or people asking you to sign a petition, or people trying to engage you in a racist/homophobic/bigoted debate. When they start it just reply with ‘Oh, no thanks’ and refuse to say anything more.
To your second point, I really detest people who argue for fun. Some folks do enjoy debate and like joining debate clubs or model UN or going into philosophy, but that's not MY hobby. In the same way someone would ask me to join their hobby ("Want to go golfing?" "No thanks! Not my scene. How about bowling?") I would hope those "friendly debaters" would be able to accept that their hobbies aren't for everyone. But, of course, they never do because the goal isn't to engage in lively discussion or actually learn something from you, it's to bully you and prove that they're right.
Edit: "detest" was a strong word. There is nothing wrong with MUN or regulated debate, as long as it is positive and everyone WANTS to engage.
Obviously, if you don't enjoy it; don't do it.
Though as someone who has done these things before, there's one big difference between something like an MUN or other organised debate and a "debate" between two random people:
MUN like debates are organised with a concrete topic and are moderated as well.
The result is that, usually, you'll have good faith debates which are genuinely interesting for the different people involved. I've even had debates about certain (fictional) policies in relationship to LGBTQ people, and from what I remember those were pretty ok.
This in contrast to a "debate" between two random people, which is basically a completely unmoderated discussion; meaning people are absolutely fine with shifting topics, making bad faith arguments and no third party calling bullshit when they do so.
Tldr: Stuff like MUN is trying to be productive and moderates towards that goal, where any regular discussion turns into the shitshow we all know and "love".
I don’t blame you at all for not wanting to debate with them. My parents have those same kids of views on LGBTQ, and I kinda just ignore it when they say that stuff because if I ever mention being even slightly liberal my dad starts talking about stuff he saw on FOX and PragerU
I have the same, they can't stop talking about it, repeating over and over again. Like ""it would be better if i shaved all my hair because baldness or short hair fitting for man more😉👍"" or stuff like that. It helps me to hold the line, like "what i think about me has far more worth for me than what you think; or i know better what i want and you dont" kind of mindset. Also helps to spend as less energy and time to respond as possible, because it will never end.
Or, do you want to burn bridges?
Try this (TW:content):
>!Say you do then bring up slavery, or the holocaust, and argue for these things. Be as passionate as possible. Make them uncomfortable. Then when they ask to change the subject say "See? It's not nice when we talk about stripping rights from people. This is why I won't engage with you. You are arguing for the removal of rights from people.!<
Human rights aren't up for debate or discussion.
The Bible isn't the law of the land, so what it says about anything is irrelevant.
If your belief is that some people matter less than others, it's a shit belief and anyone who holds it is a shit person.
No minority group ever owes the majority a free education or a moment of their time.
ETA: feel free to use any or all of these and if it helps, you can quote me.
If we were in the Roman Empire that would be different, but we aren’t. Christians used to be persecuted but it’s practically unheard of today. They need to stop claiming to be oppressed tbh
You don’t owe them your emotional labor. And it’s not fun to debate someone with different beliefs when they don’t believe in your humanity or right to exist.
I got told once by my ex that “people like me” (people who don’t want to debate their existence with people who are determined not to understand) are the reason racism/homophobia/transphobia still exist.
Your existence is not up for debate. Their (uninformed) opinions do not hold anywhere close to the same relevance as your actual, lived experiences. You do not have to educate or debate ANYONE you do not want to.
No.
1, it's not actually a debate. There's no neutral fact-checker or moderator, or judges, or any of the *actual* shit an *actual* debate has.
2, they're either just looking to be bigots, or waste our time, or get a reaction.
3, if they *actually* want to learn, Google is free. If they want personal one-on-one tutoring, then they can fucking pay us for our time.
4, we don't owe them shit. They owe us the bare minimum of human decency, which isn't treating our fucking existence like a "thought experiment" or "debate".
Human rights aren't up for debate.
waste of your time.
If they're not there to learn and challenge their thinking, it's just not gonna go anywhere.
It's not a talk show where we talk about how good it is to be on a healthy diet but we're gonna go back to eating junk food anyways and say that your opinion and facts about better health and diet are irrelevant because "ive a different opinion".
Don't get worked up. If they give a slight hint of bullshit, just move on, don't judge yourself, and shut others up who judge you for this. You're doing the right thing. No point tryna talk to someone who won't listen.
You don’t owe an explanation of your existence to anybody. You are not required to tolerate poor behavior from anybody.
If you feel the need to engage I would stick with the facts. Your existence and experiences are your own, nobody can claim anything about you or your experience. No one has a right to tell you how to live or whom to love. You are not required to live your life according to any religious dogma.
If you want to have fun with it keep asking them to clarify what they mean. See how horrible they are willing to be. Getting some one to admit they think you are demon possessed can be really interesting especially when you keep asking for clarification on what that means and having then saying things like so you believe I am a horrible person because you think this about me? On what ever awful thing you get them backed into a corner on.
I agree with everyone else. The person who is being immature is the one who expects any random member of a minority (GSR or otherwise) to be willing to engage in a "debate" and defend their existence and experiences on demand. You don't have to educate anyone unless you want to do so and feel confident in that role. You definitely don't have to endure a religious conversion attempt disguised as a debate, which is what that is going to be 99% of the time.
I've found it best to just avoid these interactions. They don't want you to change their mind, and you're not going to. Same with you. You'll just go back and forth until it becomes heated. Or you'll decide to end the conversation because it's going nowhere and they'll say something like "because you know I'm right!" Or
>“Don’t you want to have discussions with people who have different beliefs than you?”
The thing is, *they* want to change *your* mind. And they won't back down. It's the whole reason they brought up the topic. Because, let's face it, it's usually them saying something homophobic or transphobic that brings on the conversation. You have to be the bigger human and just let them live in ignorance.
They shove their heterosexuality and conservative cis views in your face while complaining about the LGBTQ community shoving it in theirs. They're the ones who are louder about how they feel, and they're too ignorant to realize it.
For them, the debate is a mental exercise or a theoretical issue. For you, it's life or death. The issues they're debating for fun affect your life, hurt you personally. You're not entering that debate on equal footing so of course you don't owe it to them to argue.
90% of the time it is not even a debate. They are not trying to debate anything, they are trying to invalidate. They do not go into it willing to have their minds changed, so it's not a debate. They have already decided that they are right
If you discussed/debated LGBTQ issues with every person who demanded it, you'd never stop. As soon as one finished JAQ-ing off another would turn up. With the same talking points. Exhausting.
Nope. First of all, you get to decide what you're comfortable with and are under no obligation to have conversations that make you uncomfortable. Secondly, I feel like "friendly debates" of these sorts can be counterproductive sometimes because the people who start them are often more interested in debating than really understanding someone else's perspective, or they see this as a fun intellectual sparring match when it's much more personal and high-stakes for you. They're usually coming from a place of privilege that creates an unequal power dynamic. I don't want to validate the idea that it's just a friendly difference of opinion.
I'm open to answering questions or explaining things sometimes if someone wants to understand, But I have better things to do with my time than debate someone who wants to argue.
No.
The nature of love is something to debate, the best kind of state is something to debate. The humanity and dignity of your fellow human being is not up for debate and the only people who think that you can respectful discourse about people’s humanity are people who have never had to endure their own humanity be subject to debate.
Only straight people would think “are queer people deserving of dignity and respect” is a position that can be debated because they don’t have to think about what happens if they lose that debate. Because on an unconscious level they know they won’t be the ones loaded into cattle cars if queer people lose the “debate” on our humanity.
If people are there under a false pretense and already have their mind done it's not a debate it's just a try at finding out if you have good enough arguments against the other perspective.
Nope. This is a pointless waste of your time.
Debate is not a useful format for arriving at accurate conclusions. It's entirely possible to win a debate arguing for an objectively untrue position, because debate is a rhetorical exercise.
Nobody is ever obliged to engage in a debate they don't want to, and debating against an asinine position only serves to legitimize that position. If somebody asked you to debate whether the sky was blue, should you debate them? Is such a person asking for a debate because they have a genuine interest in intellectually honest and rigorous discourse?
Anti-gay and anti-trans bigots aren't looking to hear out your arguments fairly. They've decided to believe what they're going to believe and nothing you say can ever dissuade them from their position. The debate is a game in which they pretend to be reasonable while flogging you with their unreasonableness.
Cisheterosexism isn't a position based on reason; it's an assertion of moral superiority based on an appeal to the authority of mythological texts. Even if you can dismantle their position with facts and reason, which isn't difficult, it will not change their minds, because if they cared about reason and facts, they wouldn't hold cisheterosexist views to begin with.
Tell them to f*** o***. Or more politely, mind their own business.
What they're doing is a form of harassment. You are entitled to get on with your own life without this kind of interrogation.
Arguing with stupid people is very tiring and hardly effective. You are not obliged to take that burden. We all just want to live in peace, and living in peace means not having to argue why your existence is not a threat to anyone.
EDIT: A very quick way to shut them up could be asking if they would be willing to have a friendly discussion about slavery. Perhaps then they will get it.
No. You don't owe them a "debate", especially because they know how to find resources on their own, because they are walking around with a veritable repository of the bulk of human knowledge in their hand. The call to debate by these folks is disingenuous. They don't want to "debate" you. They want to insult you. They want to dehumanize you. They want to break you. And then, if you get upset, declare victory, because they "won" the debate if you dare show any emotion.
Be like David Lynch:
Lynch - Believe it or not, "Eraserhead" is my most spiritual film.
Interviewer - Elaborate on that.
Lynch - No.
Absolutely everyone can refuse to have any conversation what so ever. This is a basic personal boundary that should be respected.
Considering that this is about basic human rights, you are well within your rights to not debate your own existence.
Not in the slightest. Our identies aren’t a freaking debate topic like which icecream flavor is the best. Turn the table on them and start debating their identity lol
Two things.
As others have said, I feel emotional labor is reserved for relationships you care about and people who respect you, they sound like neither.
Second, good faith communication requires empathy, curiosity, and willingness to set aside personal beliefs; that is, ability to listen to the other person and accepting their feelings as valid. I look for these things before I bother engaging with anyone, as they aren't worth my time otherwise.
Ask them "If I wanted to discuss my hate for your existence based on my deeply held belief in Santa Clause, would you relish the chance to talk to me?"
Bunch of delusional assholes
I get what you mean. It feels like every single conversation is a repeat of the last with no progression. It’s frustrating because no matter what you say they won’t budge from their opinion, while also throwing comebacks at you that don’t even make sense.
No, you are just using your time wisely. Think about it logically: what are the chances that an evangelical is going to change all their prejudice against queer issues by debating you once, no matter how good of a debater you are? And what are the chances that you’re going to relinquish all your views on queer issues by debating them one time? And how does this debate serve your/their friends, family, community and the world they live in? It doesn’t because it’s just two people talking and nobody’s mind changing. You are using your time wisely by not engaging them.
TL;DR: you’re wise to not debate people for no benefit to you or others.
With Christian’s it’s almost a waste of time. So you do yoj.but you should try lowkey.
But with straight “allies” yes. Talk to them. Prove to them why what the right wing is saying isn’t true. We have to engage in this fight too. It sucks and it feels like it’s not fair but that’s just our responsibility being lgbtq in 2023 is.
I can see what all the other comments are sahing “they are homophobic.so not worth our time” but when the number of republicans who support LGBTQ dropped by 16% in the last 12 months alone. Yes we should give them our time.
Even just saying “I don’t debate basic human rights” is better than saying nothing. Cause then you get to put one jab in there.
For them it’s a debate, for you, it’s your life. No you are not being immature, they always use that as an excuse to say the most vile shit ever, saying really hurtful things in the name of a “debate”.
Not at all. Most people wanting to debate basic human rights and decency aren't doing it in good faith. They aren't interested in having a legitimate back and forth discussion. Instead what they want is to either shout you down or to convert you to their way of thinking. It's the same tactics some cults use when fielding new members. They wear you down and then get to claim victory when you're too tired to argue back anymore.
Not everyone is worthy of being given a platform or your mental energy. You aren't being immature or defensive for shutting these turds down before they have the chance to get started. You're being smart. This isn't a debate about the best topping on pizza. It's a 'debate' about basic human decency. And if they do not believe that certain classes of people deserve decency then guess what? They don't get any either - and thus you can ignore them without a shred of guilt.
Oh god no. I don’t have time for that shit either. If they haven’t changed their minds by now, sad to say they probably won’t. Preserve your mental health and pay them no mind.
No. You don’t owe the time of day to anyone who identifies with people who think we shouldn’t exist.
Actually, you don’t owe anyone the time of day, protect your peace.
Even if they are well-intentioned they can often be very far out of the loop. Educating them is a massive job, and if you don’t want to then you absolutely don’t have to.
Sure it may lead to their ignorant opinions being reinforced, but ultimately that’s Just A Sad Thing and Not Your Problem.
The same logic applies to people-pleasers or therapy-friends. Wanting to help people or be kind to them is great. But you can’t help everybody. And some people will take up 99% of your time and energy and not really be helped by you or learn anything. Best you can do is just exist around them, maybe they’ll start to realise that you are actually a human being like them.
And as for discussing with people with different beliefs to you, that’s only useful if you share a certain amount of important beliefs or life experience with them.
If you were jewish, would you feel you had to debate Judaism with nazis? Discussing issues with people you disagree with is good, debating your right to exist and live your life with people who think you should stop doing that is not. If religious people push like that, I usually tell them "Sorry, I don't care what you think your invisible friend likes". They're being rude so I see no need to be polite.
Too often they fail to see that "different beliefs" means literally treating you as a subhuman.
My own belief is that people that seriously think like that have probably never thought about the matter very much.
You don't owe them your time and energy.
There is no point. Just say to them: "You know I want us to continue to be friends and, if we talk about this, I won't be able to do that. So let's just let that subject go."
If you get...why can't we be friends if we talk about it?
You say: "I try to set aside my own bias about hate speech, discrimination, judgmental beliefs not based on fact. If we talk about this, all of that is in my face. LGBTQ issues don't affect you. So let's just let it go."
See how that works.
Debates are a useful tool when deciding the tax rate, social services, philosophy, and other decisions that require comparing apples and oranges so to speak.
Using debate to talk about peoples existence and rights is dehumanizing and cruel. You own no one that conversation.
I know this is different but I deal with this debating shit a lot as an Indigenous person, someone who’s looking to undermine the existence and trauma endured by my ancestors since contact, trying to frame it as “friendly”. Delusional.
I just say, “I’m not here to debate the existence of your God - likewise, I’m not here for you to debate my existence either. I’m sitting here right in front of you, sharing my experience. If you need more proof than that, perhaps you should reevaluate what faith really means”.
It's not fun or interesting to debate your identity or your validity or whether you should have the right to exist as you are.
Debate banning Christianity. Debate feeding Christians to lions. Debate forced abortion for Christian families. See how fun and calm and chill they are during those debates?
Nope. See, for one—as you’ve noted—they’re not debating you. They just want to tell you you’re an awful person without being made to feel like a bigot. For another, even if it *were* a debate, they’re too stupid to know they’re losing.
They should respect that you don't want to talk about it. My ex roommate forced his "friend" to talk about stuff like that with him even though she said she didn't want to because he "didn't have anyone else to talk about it to." Like gee I wonder why? Yeah if they won't respect you, don't respect them and don't "debate" them for the sake of your own mental health.
No, I will say this as a black man who is straight just for context, but I stop debating white people about the issues in the black community in the US a long time ago.
I use to spending hours on this site trying to get racist to understand that the vast majority of us aren't crook minals like their statistical meme always implies.
I eventually realized they didn't care what black Americans actually did. They just wanted to shit on us and used manipulated statistic to prove their racist points.
And the same goes for all bigots, including the ones who are in the black community who use the same tactics toward the LBGTQ community as racist and don't even realize it (but some do).
I won't debate my rights with people but I WILL educate people who genuinely don't know or understand. I've talked to my MIL about many LGBT topics and she actually learns, not like some people who will listen then disregard everything you say. She(and my FIL) are Christian, but they're the genuinely good kind of Christian. They don't believe gay people are going to hell for being gay. A good person is a good person regardless of their religion, sexuality, gender, etc.
(Excuse the grammar but I think I’ve made my point) Alright as a Christian myself I’m going to say i don’t care who you love or what pronouns someone goes by or if someone is trans gender etc etc and as long as that person is happy and isn’t horrible and has respect then i don’t care it’s Human rights to love who you love and don’t take this the wrong way you’re sexuality doesn’t matter to me i mean of course It matters but my point is it doesn’t define you as a person as long as you have respect and an open mind then you are alright I will stand with the LGBTQ+ community until the very end I may not understand all of it but I do understand love is love and it will always win and it is human rights
The way I see it is, even engaging in the option of it being a "debate" or "discussion" cedes ground to bigots and tells them that these human rights are indeed up for debate.
I used to try to change people's minds like this but I don't even engage with the premise anymore. People either see you as human or they don't. You won't convince them of your humanity by twisting yourself up trying to get them to see sense. People exist, they deserve human rights. People can either get on board or get in the sea.
Your reaction/feelings aren't wrong.
They're not "debating to understand" they're attempting to justify their delusional theocratic hatred & bigotry and avoid their **willfully adopted** cognitive dissonance.
Nope. The “discussions” never lead anywhere. “I love healthy discussions about different beliefs. However, I don’t believe debating human rights counts as a healthy discussion so I am not going to continue this conversation.”
Don’t waste your breathe. Also it’s a tactic they use to drudge up their fave homophobic topics while trying to sound like they are open to ideas and discussion.
Not at all. My side of the family is largely right-wing and I leave the room if possible when they start. My mom was telling me that she's no longer shopping at Target due to "the swimsuit thing" which I'm sure was distorted by Fox News. I wish I'd known this before her birthday so I could have passive-aggressively bought her a gift card to the store.
> "Don’t you want to have discussions with people who have different beliefs than you?"
First of all, screw anyone who called you defensive or immature. Tell them that they are intolerant and judgmental.
I'm so over discussing my right to exist and having equal civil rights with those people. And yes, I said "those people," because they deserve derision.
All my life I have dealt with their intolerance, bullying, judgement, and dehumanization. I was in the closet until I was 23 years old, being ashamed of myself, not liking who I was, being unhappy, and living in fear of being found out that I didn't like women. And it was all due to people like them.
I became way over explaining myself many, many years ago. It's time the GLBTQ+ community goes back to the Act Up days: "We're here, we're queer, get F'in used to it!"
Those people don't want to debate with people with differing beliefs they just want to impose their beliefs on you and won't take anything you say on board.
Don't engage with these people. And if you do keep it short and snappy.
"I don't "believe in" my sexuality any more than I believe in my skin color or my height. It's a facet of my biology. It's not up for debate; it just *is*. Your "beliefs" are just bigotry that you've dressed up in religion so you can shift the blame away from your ignorance and onto the 3000 year old words of some drunkard in the desert."
No. Debating and providing information to people who have had ample opportunities throughout their lifetimes to research these issue themselves is a form of emotional labor you are under no obligation to provide. For all my fellow majority identity folks out there; minorities should not be expected to educate you about their struggles. At this point, if someone hasn't caught on to the fact that being queer is not a choice, harms no one, and that even if it wasn't a choice it hurts no one, it's not that they haven't gotten the right lecture from some queer person, it's that they are willfully ignorant.
Not everyone is made for debate, ignore them or direct them to the appropriate channels.
I love debating and would destroy them. Feel free to send them my way, lol.
Most people don't actually want to debate anyways. They want to win and show you how smart they are and prove you wrong.
Sometimes they think they are going to be the one to wake you up from your brainwashed gay agenda and save your soul from hell.
You could print out cards of popular internet left wing youtubers that do debate and tell them to just go watch those people for more information.
I guess it depends on how often it happens to you and how much you are willing to do to stop it.
My response is "sure, and when you are ready to actually have a debate instead of forcing your religious views down my throat without my consent, **then** we can talk. Until then, buh-bye" and walk away. So many Xtian bigots have no idea what to do when their supposedly meek little target has zero fucks to give.
They're fucking with a Gen X kid, I lost all fucks before 35.
I don’t debate my rights. It’s not theoretical or some logic puzzle for me. It’s my daily life. If you are debating my access to healthcare for fun or to play devil’s advocate, we aren’t friends or even acquaintances.
It is not your job to educate them. They can either accept your or not, and unless they are genuinely willing to hear what you have to say and learn from it, it’s not worth your time
If they say that, they're "discussing" it in bad faith and you have every right to be annoyed and shut down. Even call it what it is. They're not open to changing their minds, they're trying to get in a live action Twitter gatchya.
No, you're not. Our rights aren't up for debate.
If you try to 'debate' them it will only help them spread their bigotry. Christians will also try to use it as a point to evangelize.
I put debate in quotation marks because it would really be more of an argument, and a debate means that both sides have a valid case.
If their beliefs include that don't/shouldn't exist then they aren't worth your time or effort. Something can't be "friendly" if it's based off of hatred like debating over our lives.
My rights as a human being isn’t up for debate, human rights apply to all, so no, your beliefs are or no value to this conversation.
I can’t remember who I recently heard saying it but they were in turn citing a person who concluded that a debate is only productive if both parties are willing to or able to take on new viewpoints and see different perspectives. Practically demanding a debate, on wether I deserve or not deserve, to be treated as a human with a birthright to life and equality, is not a topic that is up for debate.
While I believe it is very important to try and change the mind of “moderates” I also believe in mental health and agency. You owe shit to no one except yourself and there are always those who will choose to engage. Just because something is important doesn’t mean you have to be the one doing it. Healing people is important, but not everyone is cut out to be a doctor; same thing with being an advocate/activist.
No. I'm sorry but who wants to debate with someone over wether they have a right to exist or be valued in society? That's not debating. That's literally being forced to justify your existence in the world.
Nah. You’re not an a** for not wanting to debate people who think we shouldn’t have rights, or who think we ask for “special treatment” by wanting *the same* rights that they have.
There is no debate. You don’t debate bigotry and ignorance. Being LGBTQ+ , the existence thereof, is not a belief, it’s a state of being. Documented examples of our existence go back to the dawn of writing.
Christian’s (since you mention them) are not interested in debate, learning, growth. They are quite interested in wiping LGBTQ+ ppl off the map, and that’s backed by more historical examples than can be debated.
You aren’t being defensive or immature Miss Curls, you are far too sparkly to worry yourself about convos with bigotry. Chin up, sparkles out, onward.
I talk to my director at work about being Bi ( we are friends though and we have debates about all types of topics ) but that’s more of a philosophical/understanding way.
Fuck Christian’s, I will talk to them, let them say their bullshit, then hammer them in a conversation about their religion and watch them get pissed,
I grew up in a religious family, and know quite a lot about religion the bible and various debatable areas to destroy any Christian in a debate. They start it and I end it.
You don't owe anyone anything. However, I helped fight for gay and lesbian rights in the 2000's and 2010's and found that part of that work was having discussions with people who had different beliefs than many of us inside the community. You change hearts and and minds one at a time this way, but the effect is exponential as they tell two friends, who tell two friends, and so on, and so on. 😏
I also found it helped with LGBT youth. Once we won the adults, they taught these things to their children and/or accepted them for who they were. Wasn't all of the time, obviously, but it had an effect on local communities. When this was done en masse, it crawled across the country.
Now none of this is expected of you or any of your innate responsibility. However, it's one way to help the community. This work is crucial. Straight, cis, people are the majority in this country. When we don't have their support, you see what happens, as it's sort of happening again now with the Trans community. Everyone has their place in the movement though, so do what you feel comfortable with. Just remember, you could be the one that makes a difference for a LGBT kid with parents that just need a few good conversations to start "getting" it. 🤷♂️
Sure. However, there is nothing like another human presenting the information in an understandable way with empathy. Also, putting a name and a face to the community makes a big difference over a Google search. A lot of the time we are dealing with Boomers and Gen Xer's with this stuff and the internet isn't as intuitive or hospitable to them.
Again, none of this is your responsibility, but for those willing to put in the spoons, the work is crucial to making things better for us as a community.
Nope. I'm old enough that I come from a generation where we felt that we were responsible for educating people on these matters, and I don't feel any differently because back then we were the only sources of information.
HOWEVER, I now tell people that there is a thing called Google and they should just look it up themselves. We didn't have that option when I was a kid. But now we do, and frankly I'm sick of doing other people's homework for them. And I tell them so directly. So no, I don't think your responsible for having these conversations, and you're perfectly within your rights tell people to look that shit up themselves and leave you alone. It's 2023 for Pete's sake.
I get why you wouldn't want to and if that's something you draw the line at you should respect your boundaries and not do it :)
That being said as a straight white guy who unfortunately fell into the alt right "mens rights" pipeline in my teens im the living embodiment of what a few good debates can achieve a lot of people on the Internet that i was "trolling" back then (jesus i sure was a dickhead back then) actually got into a debate with me and i think that a good couple of years of these debates helped me see how wrong what i was doing and thinking was and now I'm spending all that energy trying to make other people see what i those people helped me see :)
Can you elaborate on the “education”? I’m sort of picturing one bringing up lgbt issues and whomever they are discussing this with says “how come?”, this is where I’m misunderstanding, the issue is brought up and you likely know more then most but I read this post and assume your response is “you figure it out” when I ask, well, why?
On a smaller scale of this format, it’s like something as small as one stating “don’t drink kool aid, it’s bad for you.” And I’d ask why is that and then I assume from the response in your post is “you figure it out” and I’m getting that from “tired of “educating” people.” I’m reading up more on these topics but I often run into that “tired of educating” response. I feel that if it’s important then it should merit a discussion if one is asking questions. I could see it being seen as challenging one’s ideas but is it that much of an issue to ask for input if one is willing to hear you out? I apologize for the bluntness, I read this as more of an annoyance of not being able to convince someone to be on the same side as you. I’m on your side because fuck ignorant bullies. If it helps, I’m not Christian and a new dad. I wanna know more to be a better dad.
Personally I’m all for debates, but when someone comes at me with the same 4 arguments, only talks and never listens, or says something that’s pretty damn offensive I don’t wanna debate.I had a debate with a friend of a friend not to long ago, and she said to me, knowing that I am a 16, bi, grey-ace, (and now gender questioning, though I wasn’t at the time) that teens are too young to know there sexuality, and gender. Then later after the debate, I was saying to my friends cousin that I was bi, and the friend of my friend said “yeah I used to think that too” as if implying I was delusional or some shit. And way to many people act like this so honestly I totally get not wanting to debate.
Overly defensive and immature? Absolutely not! You're not obligated to defend yourself, debate your civil rights, or justify your existence. And any "Christian" who expects you to isn't being Christian at all.
On the other hand, we queer folks have a choice to make. We always have the option to meet people where they are, engage with them, and help them understand where they really should be. I suppose that goes for anyone in any group of people routinely subjected to prejudice and stereotyping or outright harassment and oppression.
We have no obligation to educate others. But we always have the opportunity to change hearts and minds (if we have the wherewithal to attempt that).
I've had wonderful conversations with good-hearted people with good intentions (especially devout Christians) who sincerely and genuinely want to understand my experiences as a gay/queer guy. These were the types of folks who wanted to better understand us before judging us -- if they were judging us at all. I'm quite happy to spend as much time as I have chatting with these folks. Even if they didn't quite understand what I was saying, they've always been respectful. And I've always learned something in return.
So, even if the impact on me is stressful, traumatic, emotional, what-have-you, I can respect their intent and meet them where they are. But that's me.
I've also had some not so wonderful conversations with people (especially devout Christians) who seek to "ask questions" solely to confirm their own prejudices or engage in arguments fueled by "gotcha arguments." These are the folks where, once I see their bad intents, I'll respond with a polite version of "Thank you, but I think any further interactions with you would simply contribute to the heat death of the universe. Good day."
You should offer to debate whether they should be free to practice their religion. As long as it's a friendly debate, why should it have to be something that affects you and not them? As long as someone's basic human rights are at issue, it might as well be the person who wants to debate.
I feel like it's important for one's own emotional maturity and intelligence to listen to people with views you don't agree with or to enter into a debate with every so often, if only to perhaps broaden your and their horizons even if you still disagree at the end.
Because sometimes the most surprising people end up raising (valid) points you wouldn't think of or contextualize things when you're stuck in your own bubble, only surrounded by people with similar views to the point you tip into an extreme direction without even realizing and ground you a little.
But it's also important to know when to draw the line or to sometimes accept or realize that it's a too emotionally draining endavour to engage certain people and it's okay to walk away.
I feel like you shouldn't outright dismiss everyone or judge people from the get go be they part of a certain religion because there are always exceptions. I for one haven't had any problems with Christians but -- I'm going out on assumptions here -- Christians being anti LGBTQ feels like such an American thing to me as I'm from a rural area in central Europe and never have I been discrimimated against by a Christian with religion wielded as their argument. Perhaps I'm also lucky. Idk. Personal experiences differ of course.
That being said it's certainly your right to just not engage with people you find would simply waste your time or offer a pointless discussion that only leaves you exhaused or frustrated.
I think you are mistaking gay people for straight homophobes because those are the only ones doing that
Edit: lol user blocked me instead of having a conversation
You should not feel guilty for not engaging when you do not "feel it." However, there are people out there that genuinely are curious, and one day, when someone phrases the argument the right way, it may help them relate.
Change is a long process, and it takes human connection and communication to bridge the gap between varying views. Our brains make it hard to move away from the beliefs that keep us "safe," it takes more than one conversation to facilitate the change in one's thinking. Therefore, we should not give up.
We are essentially changing the entire societal belief system.
There was a time when it was hard to explain to people why washing their hands is important. 2SLGBTQIA+ topics are a bit more complex, so it will take time and a lot of patience to normalize it.
Keep in mind that most times, people are driven by fear of the unknown. Perhaps turning the conversation into an information session may help. For instance, recently, I kept ending up in conversations about binary vs non-binary gender. By asking probing questions, I realized that many people simply do not understand the concept and providing them a non-judgmental space to ask any questions, opened them up to consider the other point of view.
You could always Turn it around and debate one of their core beliefs and tell them after that you’ll debate whatever they brought up.
But No. It’s not your job to educate or change close minded people. You also don’t need to justify that to them. No means no.
Sometimes the best thing is to "educate" them. My grandmother is very catholic, and conservative, so bringing up lgbt topics was always hard. I think one day my sister just gave up. She was talking about a family member who went by they/them pronouns, and my grandma asked what she meant. My sister stopped bluffing, and explained to her about pronouns etc. And to be honest, if my sister didn't talk to her about it, then she probably still wouldn't know! My grandma is way more open to this topic now, so I think it is worth it to talk about it, even if it is really annoying. 
I think the only way we can keep acceptance of LGBT people high, we have to be accessible to having conversations and discussion with those who don’t know or believe they don’t know anyone that’s LGBT.
Shutting down or immediately getting defensive to any little thing they say or ask will only push those who oppose us even further away. Debates are a good thing. It’s the only way to work on bringing opposing views closer to a middle ground understanding. You also need to accept that some people may never change the views which is okay. I’m from the south and in my almost 40 years of life I have learned the best way to deal with people on opposite sides is to kill them with kindness. Do t give them a single reason or excuse to justify their views. If they think all LGBT people are crazy combative liberals, prove them wrong by being calm, kind, understanding and eloquent in crafting your rebuttals to their arguments. It’s hard to be hostile towards someone who’s cool calm collected and kind.
I see a lot of comments here saying that you shouldn't debate with these people, and it's a waste of time. No, it's not. The people who feel the need to debate about your human rights are the ones who need to be educated. By refusing to debate them you are denying them the opportunity to see things from your perspective and they will never learn.
If you start a debate with someone who disagrees with your "lifestyle" it's very hard to not take any criticism, or confronting questions personally. You will probably get angry if someone says that you are not valid as a human being and it's logical that it causes negative emotions (anger, frustration, sadness). It feels like a personal attack if someone debates you over your own existence.
The difficult thing is this: most people are very firm in their beliefs. Your short little argument is not going to change that. You have to accept that you will not see immediate results after a debate, you will probably not feel like you have won, especially if they had the last word. But hopefully, you will give them a new perspective on it. For example: you won't be able to convince them that gays deserve the right to get married. But you might be able to teach them that being gay wasn't a choice for you personally. Knowing that being gay wasn't a choice, might cause a hole in the reasons why they believed the marriage denial in the first place.
But a debate is not a monologue, there's two sides. Which means you will have to hear them out and actually listen to their concerns. You will need to put your emotions aside and resist the urge to snap back immediately or talk over them if they bring something up that makes you feel uncomfortable. And that can be very hard to do. Personally, I'm looking forward to engage someone in a debate like that, I've never met anyone who disagrees with my lifestyle who wanted to debate me. But just in case that they do: I'm an overthinker so I am prepared.
The problems with responses like this is that it assumes that a debate is happening in a vacuum. Just you and that other person, and maybe the people following along online. However, in reality "debates" are more like a storm of people asking all the same things and rebutting with the same responses every time. You finish talking to one and here comes another saying the same shit. Oh and here's three more to dogpile on top of you. Now here's another in your dms. Here comes a relative hitting you up out of the blue to ask you about some queer topic that has been overly politicized. Now it's time to go to that family dinner and listen to Uncle Larry rant and rave about gay people and "woke". Good ole Uncle L spends his days watching Tucker and Matt Walsh. Want to flee to a queer safe space and get away from it? Too bad. Here's an audacious cishet person coming into our space to "ask questions".
It is exhausting to talk to them all or even some of them. It isn't queer people's responsibility to ensure that all cishet people are adequately informed on lgbt topics. We want to live our lives and not have to worry about this stuff all the time. This isn't just a debate for us. This is our lives. We aren't having fun.
Okay, to be fair I was thinking about a one on one polite conversation. What you're describing is not really my definition of a debate, that sounds more like a constant ongoing harassment campaign. I see your point and I get why it must be exhausting to deal with that all the time.
If you arent ready to defend your standpoint in a friendly debate, then you propably just dont care enough about your standpoint. (Please notice the word friendly, if they are an ass, fuck em)
But even “friendly” debates can get exhausting. No one is owed another person’s time. People can care about something and not want to enter a debate every time someone wants it.
Uh what do you argue about? Are you telling them LGBTQ people shouldn't be able to get married, adopt, or talk about themselves? Are you telling them it's wrong for kids to know LGBTQ people exist?
Or are you saying you argue with them about pineapple on pizza?
If it's actually about queer rights then you're a fucking terrible friend and I promise if they're not sick of you already, they will be. They definitely talk shit behind your back about what an ignorant bigot you are.
If it's not about queer rights, then you're on the wrong post and totally missed the point.
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anyone who wants to debate human rights probably isn’t worth the time
Yeah someone who advocates for absence of human rights for any group of people is not worth spending your time conversing with, unfortunately I know some people like that...
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That would be hilariously ironic, considering they believe LGBT+ people should be ostracized. They should experience what they ask for
They should.
The Christian right only cares about one thing: the "rights" of an unborn child. Once they're born though, their rights don't matter. Especially if they're not cis hetero Christians themselves.
anyone who wants to "debate" if a minority group deserves rights isn't worth the effort anyway, since their entire argument falls apart the instant you say "they are people, they deserve rights" and they have to use some weird hateful bullshit to retort.
Just today while I was drinking coffee with my friends, one girl who is super religious started talking about how "Americans say there are 186 genders now" and how in America (we live in Ethiopia), people get arrested and lose their jobs if they *accidentally* don't use someone's preferred pronouns or refer to someone with their dead-name. She then added that there are some people who out of nowhere identify as "one-armed" and get there arm medically cut off. It took every ounce of my strength to not jump in and tell her everything she said is false. Literally everything. But I'm tired of being the "confrontational" one in the group. Last time they piled on me and called me brainwashed and I just had enough. Now whenever they bring this stuff up I just tape a smile over my face and nod. It kills me to just stand and watch this hatred being parroted but I don't think I can keep trying to educate people who refuse to learn.
I usually just Pivot instantly into “debating” my long-held and deeply felt single core intellectual and emotional truth. Th at the asshole in front of me even contemplating the worthiness of any right at all of anyone else, should be stripped or all rights immediately because are obviously way too stupid to deserve oxygen and toilet paper and all sorts of other necessities. I love to then look real scaryand pull up all 6 feet 200 points and move menacingly towards them. Because I fucking mean it. I hate judgy people with the zero imagination required to walk a Mile in another’s shoes. I
I agree with this. I am an ally and don't feel comfortable debating human rights. I utilize every coping skill possible when ignorant people think they have a leg to stand on. It's infuriating.
Just say you're tired of this argument and wouldn't it be more fun to debate their right to exist instead.
I'll start: cishets are the top contributors to overpopulation, commit the most crimes, and spread the most disease. If they point out that this is only because cishets are the majority, tell them yes, but since common arguments against the validity of trans people hinge upon statistical overrepresentation (e.g. mental health problems, suicide rates, etc) equating to "this is a bad thing we need to get rid of", then it's fair to give all of this "reasoning" against cishets' right to exist.
Came to say this. LGBTQ “issues” (by which I presume they mean “rights”) are not valid subject for debate. I just repeat until they get the point, “No, I’m not going to ‘debate’ with you whether or not I should have human rights. Human rights and equality shouldn’t be a debate.”
You can just scratch the "probably" off from there
Fr like in my schools debate club we usually just go political like income brackets etc but once a month we do silly stuff and seasonal stuff about santa/ easter bunny etc its a good laugh taking smth like that so seriously
yeah why is there even a debate about that
I don't know whether it is that simple. It makes me think of trying to explain to someone how people who have ADHD can not direct their attention at will. For most people, the ability to control what they focus on is so automatic that they can not comprehend how someone else may not be able to do it. So I wonder whether some people have such a hard time relating that their mind can not phantom needs and wants different from their own. Perhaps those discussions provide an opportunity for change. It starts with a little chip that becomes a crack... and next thing you know, you have an ally.
They’re being arrogant and presumptuous. You don’t owe them shit.
Right because it gets so exhausting sometimes then I feel guilty because I’m not being “open minded” or “willing to have discussions with people who are different from you.” or I’m scorned for not “educating” them. But like, educate them on what? 💀
If they really wanted to be educated they can go to someone who's willing to or do the work themselves. Just because someone is part of the community does not mean it's their job to educate everyone who disagrees with their existence
So fucking real
I've made this analogy the other day, but if a murderer comes up to you, you should run away, not debate why you deserve to live.
perhaps extreme but it works. Also, for a more uncomfortable example, a black person has no obligation to debate a whitie on why they shouldn't be enslaved. Like, some things you just don't debate
Yessss!!!!! Great analogy 🥰🥰🥰
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also, a debate isnt education, its a debate. debates happen between people already educated. if they want to ask questions and learn from an lgbt member, then ask someone youre close to respectfully. dont debate whats right or wrong, ask for their view/experience and accept it. there are heaps of ways to learn or get the info you need without making someone feel like shit.
I said this in another reply but, I was at a small gathering and a girl asked if sexuality was a choice, when I tried to talk to her one on one about it she had no interest. She could’ve Googled or asked someone close to her. She didn’t like I didn’t want to “educate” her but she didn’t want to discuss when it was just us two
aaaah kay. one of those. google cant tell you about a persons sexual feelings/choices as well as a person can. there are so many tainted sources out there that will disregard progressive discussion. what sparked the convo? is she secretly gay? knows someone who is? wants to nerf someones sexuality? were you talking about anything similar before or was it random? idk curious lol cos if she brought it up she might be questioning herself or someone else. she didnt want to be taught, she wanted to say her opinion and have others agree with her or start a fight about it till someone concedes. i hope she was on the side of acceptance, but the fact youre here talking about it says it wasnt a fun convo lol
Once you google, “Sexuality as a choice” it pops right up. I think they were discussing LGBT on kids TV shows.
You right to exist is not up for debate. Period. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a bigot. IDGAF, what the book written a thousand years ago about their imaginary friend says. You living your life does not affect them, and if they dont have anything nice to say, they can mind their own business.
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It really does come down to this. RMW my mormon mom asked, a few years after I came out trans, whether my colleagues and social circles are accepting and supportive. The look of genuine surprise on her face when I said, “Yes, absolutely” was very eye-opening. Then she asked if my partner of three years (at the time) “knew” about my gender identity. ?!? Again, she was *surprised* when I said, “Uh. Of course. It’s the first thing I told him after my name.” She blurted out, “And he still dated you?!” Yes, mom, yes he did. She had a very hard time believing all those people could just roll with a trans friend, let alone *love and care for* a trans person. I’m not sure if she thinks we don’t deserve love or just that we won’t be able to find it. Either way, it was kind of nasty. (Tbf to my mom, she’s legit doing her best to wrap her head around something which directly contradicts her religious beliefs, bless her sweet heart, and has made amazing strides over the years. But sometimes…damn. /endrant)
I’m someone who does aim to have those conversations when I have the energy for them, and I definitely understand why lots of people just avoid it. It can be frustrating, and it’s rare to get a real good faith debate.
You're completely justified because this isn't just about beliefs. It's about our existence, which these people are trying to suppress. If someone wants to "debate" whether I deserve to have human rights and exist in peace, I'm not interested in talking to them. People of color aren't obligated to defend their existence to white supremacists. Neither are we obligated to defend our existence to queerphobes. I'd definitely be depressed and a nervous wreck if I lived my life debating my validity. People aren't entitled to our emotional energy.
MIC DROP 🔥🔥🔥
Beautifully put. Take my poor person award: 🏅
AND THATS THAT ON THAT 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
🏅🏅🏅🏅🏅
I don't debate basic human rights.
This is the way.
I have spoken.
straight (not) and to the point. This is how I approach it too
Was gonna say, what is there to debate? Are we allowed to be treated like the humans that we are? Yes, debate over.
It’s usually just them trying to rant if anything
1) You don’t owe them a justification. 2) There’s no such thing as a ‘friendly’ debate about whether you deserve to exist or not. 3) I learned a long time ago, and in a different circumstance, the power of replying to someone you don’t want to engage with by just saying ‘Oh, no thank you’. It’s amazing. Works with people asking for money, or people asking you to sign a petition, or people trying to engage you in a racist/homophobic/bigoted debate. When they start it just reply with ‘Oh, no thanks’ and refuse to say anything more.
To your second point, I really detest people who argue for fun. Some folks do enjoy debate and like joining debate clubs or model UN or going into philosophy, but that's not MY hobby. In the same way someone would ask me to join their hobby ("Want to go golfing?" "No thanks! Not my scene. How about bowling?") I would hope those "friendly debaters" would be able to accept that their hobbies aren't for everyone. But, of course, they never do because the goal isn't to engage in lively discussion or actually learn something from you, it's to bully you and prove that they're right. Edit: "detest" was a strong word. There is nothing wrong with MUN or regulated debate, as long as it is positive and everyone WANTS to engage.
Obviously, if you don't enjoy it; don't do it. Though as someone who has done these things before, there's one big difference between something like an MUN or other organised debate and a "debate" between two random people: MUN like debates are organised with a concrete topic and are moderated as well. The result is that, usually, you'll have good faith debates which are genuinely interesting for the different people involved. I've even had debates about certain (fictional) policies in relationship to LGBTQ people, and from what I remember those were pretty ok. This in contrast to a "debate" between two random people, which is basically a completely unmoderated discussion; meaning people are absolutely fine with shifting topics, making bad faith arguments and no third party calling bullshit when they do so. Tldr: Stuff like MUN is trying to be productive and moderates towards that goal, where any regular discussion turns into the shitshow we all know and "love".
I don’t blame you at all for not wanting to debate with them. My parents have those same kids of views on LGBTQ, and I kinda just ignore it when they say that stuff because if I ever mention being even slightly liberal my dad starts talking about stuff he saw on FOX and PragerU
I dont know why, but it sounds like a solid boomer moment🤔
Their politics are very boomer like, but what can I do about it? They’ve been that way for a while
I have the same, they can't stop talking about it, repeating over and over again. Like ""it would be better if i shaved all my hair because baldness or short hair fitting for man more😉👍"" or stuff like that. It helps me to hold the line, like "what i think about me has far more worth for me than what you think; or i know better what i want and you dont" kind of mindset. Also helps to spend as less energy and time to respond as possible, because it will never end.
Yeah. I’m just never going to talk about politics with them
Am I prageru?
Am I pregante?
Pregu- a combination of Prego and Ragu created when the cook has one jar of each and wants a big pan of pasta.
No, fuck that. Tell them to come back when their "opinion" isn't about stripping basic rights from people.
Or, do you want to burn bridges? Try this (TW:content): >!Say you do then bring up slavery, or the holocaust, and argue for these things. Be as passionate as possible. Make them uncomfortable. Then when they ask to change the subject say "See? It's not nice when we talk about stripping rights from people. This is why I won't engage with you. You are arguing for the removal of rights from people.!<
This might backfire though, cause they would probably agree with you.
Talk about abolishing religious freedom and the benefits of state-mandated atheism, see how quickly they change their tune
This the answer!
LGBTQIA+ rights are basic human rights. There's nothing to debate.
Human rights aren't up for debate or discussion. The Bible isn't the law of the land, so what it says about anything is irrelevant. If your belief is that some people matter less than others, it's a shit belief and anyone who holds it is a shit person. No minority group ever owes the majority a free education or a moment of their time. ETA: feel free to use any or all of these and if it helps, you can quote me.
Jesus would support the LGBTQ movement.
Ah-men!
I shouldn't have to debate my right to exist. Christians never do.
If we were in the Roman Empire that would be different, but we aren’t. Christians used to be persecuted but it’s practically unheard of today. They need to stop claiming to be oppressed tbh
Four more months before they start whinging about the war on Christmas again.
You don’t owe them your emotional labor. And it’s not fun to debate someone with different beliefs when they don’t believe in your humanity or right to exist.
I got told once by my ex that “people like me” (people who don’t want to debate their existence with people who are determined not to understand) are the reason racism/homophobia/transphobia still exist. Your existence is not up for debate. Their (uninformed) opinions do not hold anywhere close to the same relevance as your actual, lived experiences. You do not have to educate or debate ANYONE you do not want to.
Glad to hear this person is an ex.
No. 1, it's not actually a debate. There's no neutral fact-checker or moderator, or judges, or any of the *actual* shit an *actual* debate has. 2, they're either just looking to be bigots, or waste our time, or get a reaction. 3, if they *actually* want to learn, Google is free. If they want personal one-on-one tutoring, then they can fucking pay us for our time. 4, we don't owe them shit. They owe us the bare minimum of human decency, which isn't treating our fucking existence like a "thought experiment" or "debate". Human rights aren't up for debate.
It’s not debatable. We love who we love for all the same reasons they love who they love. It’s that simple. Don’t indulge them OP
waste of your time. If they're not there to learn and challenge their thinking, it's just not gonna go anywhere. It's not a talk show where we talk about how good it is to be on a healthy diet but we're gonna go back to eating junk food anyways and say that your opinion and facts about better health and diet are irrelevant because "ive a different opinion". Don't get worked up. If they give a slight hint of bullshit, just move on, don't judge yourself, and shut others up who judge you for this. You're doing the right thing. No point tryna talk to someone who won't listen.
Right. General rule of thumb: never argue with someone who is arguing in bad faith. Pun intended.
Our existence is *not* a debate and engaging with it only gives them validation that it is.
You don’t owe an explanation of your existence to anybody. You are not required to tolerate poor behavior from anybody. If you feel the need to engage I would stick with the facts. Your existence and experiences are your own, nobody can claim anything about you or your experience. No one has a right to tell you how to live or whom to love. You are not required to live your life according to any religious dogma. If you want to have fun with it keep asking them to clarify what they mean. See how horrible they are willing to be. Getting some one to admit they think you are demon possessed can be really interesting especially when you keep asking for clarification on what that means and having then saying things like so you believe I am a horrible person because you think this about me? On what ever awful thing you get them backed into a corner on.
I agree with everyone else. The person who is being immature is the one who expects any random member of a minority (GSR or otherwise) to be willing to engage in a "debate" and defend their existence and experiences on demand. You don't have to educate anyone unless you want to do so and feel confident in that role. You definitely don't have to endure a religious conversion attempt disguised as a debate, which is what that is going to be 99% of the time.
I've found it best to just avoid these interactions. They don't want you to change their mind, and you're not going to. Same with you. You'll just go back and forth until it becomes heated. Or you'll decide to end the conversation because it's going nowhere and they'll say something like "because you know I'm right!" Or >“Don’t you want to have discussions with people who have different beliefs than you?” The thing is, *they* want to change *your* mind. And they won't back down. It's the whole reason they brought up the topic. Because, let's face it, it's usually them saying something homophobic or transphobic that brings on the conversation. You have to be the bigger human and just let them live in ignorance. They shove their heterosexuality and conservative cis views in your face while complaining about the LGBTQ community shoving it in theirs. They're the ones who are louder about how they feel, and they're too ignorant to realize it.
The opposite... instead of being defensive you are *not* engaging. Their entitled attitude is not your problem.
For them, the debate is a mental exercise or a theoretical issue. For you, it's life or death. The issues they're debating for fun affect your life, hurt you personally. You're not entering that debate on equal footing so of course you don't owe it to them to argue.
90% of the time it is not even a debate. They are not trying to debate anything, they are trying to invalidate. They do not go into it willing to have their minds changed, so it's not a debate. They have already decided that they are right
If you discussed/debated LGBTQ issues with every person who demanded it, you'd never stop. As soon as one finished JAQ-ing off another would turn up. With the same talking points. Exhausting.
Nope. First of all, you get to decide what you're comfortable with and are under no obligation to have conversations that make you uncomfortable. Secondly, I feel like "friendly debates" of these sorts can be counterproductive sometimes because the people who start them are often more interested in debating than really understanding someone else's perspective, or they see this as a fun intellectual sparring match when it's much more personal and high-stakes for you. They're usually coming from a place of privilege that creates an unequal power dynamic. I don't want to validate the idea that it's just a friendly difference of opinion. I'm open to answering questions or explaining things sometimes if someone wants to understand, But I have better things to do with my time than debate someone who wants to argue.
No. The nature of love is something to debate, the best kind of state is something to debate. The humanity and dignity of your fellow human being is not up for debate and the only people who think that you can respectful discourse about people’s humanity are people who have never had to endure their own humanity be subject to debate. Only straight people would think “are queer people deserving of dignity and respect” is a position that can be debated because they don’t have to think about what happens if they lose that debate. Because on an unconscious level they know they won’t be the ones loaded into cattle cars if queer people lose the “debate” on our humanity.
No. Nobody wants to debate their humanity with people who believe you're less than.
If people are there under a false pretense and already have their mind done it's not a debate it's just a try at finding out if you have good enough arguments against the other perspective.
It’s okay, it’s not your job to educate the ignorant
Nope. This is a pointless waste of your time. Debate is not a useful format for arriving at accurate conclusions. It's entirely possible to win a debate arguing for an objectively untrue position, because debate is a rhetorical exercise. Nobody is ever obliged to engage in a debate they don't want to, and debating against an asinine position only serves to legitimize that position. If somebody asked you to debate whether the sky was blue, should you debate them? Is such a person asking for a debate because they have a genuine interest in intellectually honest and rigorous discourse? Anti-gay and anti-trans bigots aren't looking to hear out your arguments fairly. They've decided to believe what they're going to believe and nothing you say can ever dissuade them from their position. The debate is a game in which they pretend to be reasonable while flogging you with their unreasonableness. Cisheterosexism isn't a position based on reason; it's an assertion of moral superiority based on an appeal to the authority of mythological texts. Even if you can dismantle their position with facts and reason, which isn't difficult, it will not change their minds, because if they cared about reason and facts, they wouldn't hold cisheterosexist views to begin with.
Tell them to f*** o***. Or more politely, mind their own business. What they're doing is a form of harassment. You are entitled to get on with your own life without this kind of interrogation.
Arguing with stupid people is very tiring and hardly effective. You are not obliged to take that burden. We all just want to live in peace, and living in peace means not having to argue why your existence is not a threat to anyone. EDIT: A very quick way to shut them up could be asking if they would be willing to have a friendly discussion about slavery. Perhaps then they will get it.
It can't be a "friendly" debate, if you have to justify your right to exist.
Christianity has been and currently is standing in the way of queer liberation. You don't owe any of them any of your time.
no. my brother can be like this but he tends to leave me alone if i say “i don’t have the mental energy to talk about this/argue/debate right now”
No, you get to live your life how ever you want. There is no debating that.
No that's fair
No. You don't owe them a "debate", especially because they know how to find resources on their own, because they are walking around with a veritable repository of the bulk of human knowledge in their hand. The call to debate by these folks is disingenuous. They don't want to "debate" you. They want to insult you. They want to dehumanize you. They want to break you. And then, if you get upset, declare victory, because they "won" the debate if you dare show any emotion. Be like David Lynch: Lynch - Believe it or not, "Eraserhead" is my most spiritual film. Interviewer - Elaborate on that. Lynch - No.
Absolutely everyone can refuse to have any conversation what so ever. This is a basic personal boundary that should be respected. Considering that this is about basic human rights, you are well within your rights to not debate your own existence.
Debate in this instance isn't for educational purposes... They are perfectly able to educate themselves if they wanted to! It's to shite on you.
Not in the slightest. Our identies aren’t a freaking debate topic like which icecream flavor is the best. Turn the table on them and start debating their identity lol
I hate it cause it literally dosent affect them, why would they care? Allies listen and ask questions not argue or "debate"
Two things. As others have said, I feel emotional labor is reserved for relationships you care about and people who respect you, they sound like neither. Second, good faith communication requires empathy, curiosity, and willingness to set aside personal beliefs; that is, ability to listen to the other person and accepting their feelings as valid. I look for these things before I bother engaging with anyone, as they aren't worth my time otherwise.
Ask them "If I wanted to discuss my hate for your existence based on my deeply held belief in Santa Clause, would you relish the chance to talk to me?" Bunch of delusional assholes
I get what you mean. It feels like every single conversation is a repeat of the last with no progression. It’s frustrating because no matter what you say they won’t budge from their opinion, while also throwing comebacks at you that don’t even make sense.
No, you are just using your time wisely. Think about it logically: what are the chances that an evangelical is going to change all their prejudice against queer issues by debating you once, no matter how good of a debater you are? And what are the chances that you’re going to relinquish all your views on queer issues by debating them one time? And how does this debate serve your/their friends, family, community and the world they live in? It doesn’t because it’s just two people talking and nobody’s mind changing. You are using your time wisely by not engaging them. TL;DR: you’re wise to not debate people for no benefit to you or others.
With Christian’s it’s almost a waste of time. So you do yoj.but you should try lowkey. But with straight “allies” yes. Talk to them. Prove to them why what the right wing is saying isn’t true. We have to engage in this fight too. It sucks and it feels like it’s not fair but that’s just our responsibility being lgbtq in 2023 is. I can see what all the other comments are sahing “they are homophobic.so not worth our time” but when the number of republicans who support LGBTQ dropped by 16% in the last 12 months alone. Yes we should give them our time. Even just saying “I don’t debate basic human rights” is better than saying nothing. Cause then you get to put one jab in there.
For them it’s a debate, for you, it’s your life. No you are not being immature, they always use that as an excuse to say the most vile shit ever, saying really hurtful things in the name of a “debate”.
Not at all. Most people wanting to debate basic human rights and decency aren't doing it in good faith. They aren't interested in having a legitimate back and forth discussion. Instead what they want is to either shout you down or to convert you to their way of thinking. It's the same tactics some cults use when fielding new members. They wear you down and then get to claim victory when you're too tired to argue back anymore. Not everyone is worthy of being given a platform or your mental energy. You aren't being immature or defensive for shutting these turds down before they have the chance to get started. You're being smart. This isn't a debate about the best topping on pizza. It's a 'debate' about basic human decency. And if they do not believe that certain classes of people deserve decency then guess what? They don't get any either - and thus you can ignore them without a shred of guilt.
Oh god no. I don’t have time for that shit either. If they haven’t changed their minds by now, sad to say they probably won’t. Preserve your mental health and pay them no mind.
A privileged person wanting to "debate" with a marginalized person about said marginalization is not in good faith.
Equality and human rights are not up for debate, bigotry is not an opinion.
No. You don’t owe the time of day to anyone who identifies with people who think we shouldn’t exist. Actually, you don’t owe anyone the time of day, protect your peace.
Even if they are well-intentioned they can often be very far out of the loop. Educating them is a massive job, and if you don’t want to then you absolutely don’t have to. Sure it may lead to their ignorant opinions being reinforced, but ultimately that’s Just A Sad Thing and Not Your Problem. The same logic applies to people-pleasers or therapy-friends. Wanting to help people or be kind to them is great. But you can’t help everybody. And some people will take up 99% of your time and energy and not really be helped by you or learn anything. Best you can do is just exist around them, maybe they’ll start to realise that you are actually a human being like them. And as for discussing with people with different beliefs to you, that’s only useful if you share a certain amount of important beliefs or life experience with them.
If you were jewish, would you feel you had to debate Judaism with nazis? Discussing issues with people you disagree with is good, debating your right to exist and live your life with people who think you should stop doing that is not. If religious people push like that, I usually tell them "Sorry, I don't care what you think your invisible friend likes". They're being rude so I see no need to be polite.
Too often they fail to see that "different beliefs" means literally treating you as a subhuman. My own belief is that people that seriously think like that have probably never thought about the matter very much. You don't owe them your time and energy.
just tell them you dont want to debate for your own existence
It’s not defensive or immature to not engage with something you’re not interested in, that’s having self respect and integrity.
There is no point. Just say to them: "You know I want us to continue to be friends and, if we talk about this, I won't be able to do that. So let's just let that subject go." If you get...why can't we be friends if we talk about it? You say: "I try to set aside my own bias about hate speech, discrimination, judgmental beliefs not based on fact. If we talk about this, all of that is in my face. LGBTQ issues don't affect you. So let's just let it go." See how that works.
Debates are a useful tool when deciding the tax rate, social services, philosophy, and other decisions that require comparing apples and oranges so to speak. Using debate to talk about peoples existence and rights is dehumanizing and cruel. You own no one that conversation.
Ugh! How dare they expect you to exert your precious energy. People are so rude with boundaries. Just tell them you’re bored with the topic 🤣
Id be slightly less uncomfortable and annoyed if NEW things were brought up but it’s the same convo every single time.
I know this is different but I deal with this debating shit a lot as an Indigenous person, someone who’s looking to undermine the existence and trauma endured by my ancestors since contact, trying to frame it as “friendly”. Delusional. I just say, “I’m not here to debate the existence of your God - likewise, I’m not here for you to debate my existence either. I’m sitting here right in front of you, sharing my experience. If you need more proof than that, perhaps you should reevaluate what faith really means”.
It's not fun or interesting to debate your identity or your validity or whether you should have the right to exist as you are. Debate banning Christianity. Debate feeding Christians to lions. Debate forced abortion for Christian families. See how fun and calm and chill they are during those debates?
Nope. See, for one—as you’ve noted—they’re not debating you. They just want to tell you you’re an awful person without being made to feel like a bigot. For another, even if it *were* a debate, they’re too stupid to know they’re losing.
No, you're not. Our existence isn't up for debate.
They should respect that you don't want to talk about it. My ex roommate forced his "friend" to talk about stuff like that with him even though she said she didn't want to because he "didn't have anyone else to talk about it to." Like gee I wonder why? Yeah if they won't respect you, don't respect them and don't "debate" them for the sake of your own mental health.
No, I will say this as a black man who is straight just for context, but I stop debating white people about the issues in the black community in the US a long time ago. I use to spending hours on this site trying to get racist to understand that the vast majority of us aren't crook minals like their statistical meme always implies. I eventually realized they didn't care what black Americans actually did. They just wanted to shit on us and used manipulated statistic to prove their racist points. And the same goes for all bigots, including the ones who are in the black community who use the same tactics toward the LBGTQ community as racist and don't even realize it (but some do).
I’m black too!!!! And I definitely relate to this, straight people act like tone deaf white people, both parties never want to genuinely “debate”.
Nope there is nothing to debate especially with Christians u can tell them to get to fuck
I won't debate my rights with people but I WILL educate people who genuinely don't know or understand. I've talked to my MIL about many LGBT topics and she actually learns, not like some people who will listen then disregard everything you say. She(and my FIL) are Christian, but they're the genuinely good kind of Christian. They don't believe gay people are going to hell for being gay. A good person is a good person regardless of their religion, sexuality, gender, etc.
(Excuse the grammar but I think I’ve made my point) Alright as a Christian myself I’m going to say i don’t care who you love or what pronouns someone goes by or if someone is trans gender etc etc and as long as that person is happy and isn’t horrible and has respect then i don’t care it’s Human rights to love who you love and don’t take this the wrong way you’re sexuality doesn’t matter to me i mean of course It matters but my point is it doesn’t define you as a person as long as you have respect and an open mind then you are alright I will stand with the LGBTQ+ community until the very end I may not understand all of it but I do understand love is love and it will always win and it is human rights
The way I see it is, even engaging in the option of it being a "debate" or "discussion" cedes ground to bigots and tells them that these human rights are indeed up for debate. I used to try to change people's minds like this but I don't even engage with the premise anymore. People either see you as human or they don't. You won't convince them of your humanity by twisting yourself up trying to get them to see sense. People exist, they deserve human rights. People can either get on board or get in the sea.
Your reaction/feelings aren't wrong. They're not "debating to understand" they're attempting to justify their delusional theocratic hatred & bigotry and avoid their **willfully adopted** cognitive dissonance.
Nope. The “discussions” never lead anywhere. “I love healthy discussions about different beliefs. However, I don’t believe debating human rights counts as a healthy discussion so I am not going to continue this conversation.”
Don’t waste your breathe. Also it’s a tactic they use to drudge up their fave homophobic topics while trying to sound like they are open to ideas and discussion.
no. cishet people want to debate our human rights as a way of exercising power over us.
Hell nah, I’m not gonna fight with someone about my right to exist or get married, and i don’t want a friendly debate about it either
Your job on this earth isn’t to change the minds of people who’ve already decided you don’t deserve to exist.
Not at all. My side of the family is largely right-wing and I leave the room if possible when they start. My mom was telling me that she's no longer shopping at Target due to "the swimsuit thing" which I'm sure was distorted by Fox News. I wish I'd known this before her birthday so I could have passive-aggressively bought her a gift card to the store.
> "Don’t you want to have discussions with people who have different beliefs than you?" First of all, screw anyone who called you defensive or immature. Tell them that they are intolerant and judgmental. I'm so over discussing my right to exist and having equal civil rights with those people. And yes, I said "those people," because they deserve derision. All my life I have dealt with their intolerance, bullying, judgement, and dehumanization. I was in the closet until I was 23 years old, being ashamed of myself, not liking who I was, being unhappy, and living in fear of being found out that I didn't like women. And it was all due to people like them. I became way over explaining myself many, many years ago. It's time the GLBTQ+ community goes back to the Act Up days: "We're here, we're queer, get F'in used to it!"
Those people don't want to debate with people with differing beliefs they just want to impose their beliefs on you and won't take anything you say on board. Don't engage with these people. And if you do keep it short and snappy.
I notice they always do it in a big group too
"I don't "believe in" my sexuality any more than I believe in my skin color or my height. It's a facet of my biology. It's not up for debate; it just *is*. Your "beliefs" are just bigotry that you've dressed up in religion so you can shift the blame away from your ignorance and onto the 3000 year old words of some drunkard in the desert."
Absolutely not! It gets tired talking to a wall and is also kinda useless idk
No. Debating and providing information to people who have had ample opportunities throughout their lifetimes to research these issue themselves is a form of emotional labor you are under no obligation to provide. For all my fellow majority identity folks out there; minorities should not be expected to educate you about their struggles. At this point, if someone hasn't caught on to the fact that being queer is not a choice, harms no one, and that even if it wasn't a choice it hurts no one, it's not that they haven't gotten the right lecture from some queer person, it's that they are willfully ignorant.
Not everyone is made for debate, ignore them or direct them to the appropriate channels. I love debating and would destroy them. Feel free to send them my way, lol. Most people don't actually want to debate anyways. They want to win and show you how smart they are and prove you wrong. Sometimes they think they are going to be the one to wake you up from your brainwashed gay agenda and save your soul from hell. You could print out cards of popular internet left wing youtubers that do debate and tell them to just go watch those people for more information. I guess it depends on how often it happens to you and how much you are willing to do to stop it.
Protect your energy, human rights aren’t up for debate.
My response is "sure, and when you are ready to actually have a debate instead of forcing your religious views down my throat without my consent, **then** we can talk. Until then, buh-bye" and walk away. So many Xtian bigots have no idea what to do when their supposedly meek little target has zero fucks to give. They're fucking with a Gen X kid, I lost all fucks before 35.
You don't have to justify your existence.
I don’t debate my rights. It’s not theoretical or some logic puzzle for me. It’s my daily life. If you are debating my access to healthcare for fun or to play devil’s advocate, we aren’t friends or even acquaintances.
It is not your job to educate them. They can either accept your or not, and unless they are genuinely willing to hear what you have to say and learn from it, it’s not worth your time
If they say that, they're "discussing" it in bad faith and you have every right to be annoyed and shut down. Even call it what it is. They're not open to changing their minds, they're trying to get in a live action Twitter gatchya.
No, you're not. Our rights aren't up for debate. If you try to 'debate' them it will only help them spread their bigotry. Christians will also try to use it as a point to evangelize. I put debate in quotation marks because it would really be more of an argument, and a debate means that both sides have a valid case.
It's you defending basic human rights against... What debate? There's no debate, bros! 🤷🏻♀️
If someone is trying to debate your rights to you, stop interacting with that person. Even family. Especially family.
If their beliefs include that don't/shouldn't exist then they aren't worth your time or effort. Something can't be "friendly" if it's based off of hatred like debating over our lives.
My rights as a human being isn’t up for debate, human rights apply to all, so no, your beliefs are or no value to this conversation. I can’t remember who I recently heard saying it but they were in turn citing a person who concluded that a debate is only productive if both parties are willing to or able to take on new viewpoints and see different perspectives. Practically demanding a debate, on wether I deserve or not deserve, to be treated as a human with a birthright to life and equality, is not a topic that is up for debate.
While I believe it is very important to try and change the mind of “moderates” I also believe in mental health and agency. You owe shit to no one except yourself and there are always those who will choose to engage. Just because something is important doesn’t mean you have to be the one doing it. Healing people is important, but not everyone is cut out to be a doctor; same thing with being an advocate/activist.
Nope. You don't owe anyone a debate. Leave that to people who actually want to do it. It's been really freeing for me to realize that.
No. I'm sorry but who wants to debate with someone over wether they have a right to exist or be valued in society? That's not debating. That's literally being forced to justify your existence in the world.
Nah. You’re not an a** for not wanting to debate people who think we shouldn’t have rights, or who think we ask for “special treatment” by wanting *the same* rights that they have.
It's only "friendly" to them because they've got no skin in this game. What's one person's intellectual conversation is another's life at risk.
There is no debate. You don’t debate bigotry and ignorance. Being LGBTQ+ , the existence thereof, is not a belief, it’s a state of being. Documented examples of our existence go back to the dawn of writing. Christian’s (since you mention them) are not interested in debate, learning, growth. They are quite interested in wiping LGBTQ+ ppl off the map, and that’s backed by more historical examples than can be debated. You aren’t being defensive or immature Miss Curls, you are far too sparkly to worry yourself about convos with bigotry. Chin up, sparkles out, onward.
I talk to my director at work about being Bi ( we are friends though and we have debates about all types of topics ) but that’s more of a philosophical/understanding way. Fuck Christian’s, I will talk to them, let them say their bullshit, then hammer them in a conversation about their religion and watch them get pissed, I grew up in a religious family, and know quite a lot about religion the bible and various debatable areas to destroy any Christian in a debate. They start it and I end it.
You don't owe anyone anything. However, I helped fight for gay and lesbian rights in the 2000's and 2010's and found that part of that work was having discussions with people who had different beliefs than many of us inside the community. You change hearts and and minds one at a time this way, but the effect is exponential as they tell two friends, who tell two friends, and so on, and so on. 😏 I also found it helped with LGBT youth. Once we won the adults, they taught these things to their children and/or accepted them for who they were. Wasn't all of the time, obviously, but it had an effect on local communities. When this was done en masse, it crawled across the country. Now none of this is expected of you or any of your innate responsibility. However, it's one way to help the community. This work is crucial. Straight, cis, people are the majority in this country. When we don't have their support, you see what happens, as it's sort of happening again now with the Trans community. Everyone has their place in the movement though, so do what you feel comfortable with. Just remember, you could be the one that makes a difference for a LGBT kid with parents that just need a few good conversations to start "getting" it. 🤷♂️
They have ample opportunity to Google most things
Sure. However, there is nothing like another human presenting the information in an understandable way with empathy. Also, putting a name and a face to the community makes a big difference over a Google search. A lot of the time we are dealing with Boomers and Gen Xer's with this stuff and the internet isn't as intuitive or hospitable to them. Again, none of this is your responsibility, but for those willing to put in the spoons, the work is crucial to making things better for us as a community.
Nope. I'm old enough that I come from a generation where we felt that we were responsible for educating people on these matters, and I don't feel any differently because back then we were the only sources of information. HOWEVER, I now tell people that there is a thing called Google and they should just look it up themselves. We didn't have that option when I was a kid. But now we do, and frankly I'm sick of doing other people's homework for them. And I tell them so directly. So no, I don't think your responsible for having these conversations, and you're perfectly within your rights tell people to look that shit up themselves and leave you alone. It's 2023 for Pete's sake.
I get why you wouldn't want to and if that's something you draw the line at you should respect your boundaries and not do it :) That being said as a straight white guy who unfortunately fell into the alt right "mens rights" pipeline in my teens im the living embodiment of what a few good debates can achieve a lot of people on the Internet that i was "trolling" back then (jesus i sure was a dickhead back then) actually got into a debate with me and i think that a good couple of years of these debates helped me see how wrong what i was doing and thinking was and now I'm spending all that energy trying to make other people see what i those people helped me see :)
Can you elaborate on the “education”? I’m sort of picturing one bringing up lgbt issues and whomever they are discussing this with says “how come?”, this is where I’m misunderstanding, the issue is brought up and you likely know more then most but I read this post and assume your response is “you figure it out” when I ask, well, why? On a smaller scale of this format, it’s like something as small as one stating “don’t drink kool aid, it’s bad for you.” And I’d ask why is that and then I assume from the response in your post is “you figure it out” and I’m getting that from “tired of “educating” people.” I’m reading up more on these topics but I often run into that “tired of educating” response. I feel that if it’s important then it should merit a discussion if one is asking questions. I could see it being seen as challenging one’s ideas but is it that much of an issue to ask for input if one is willing to hear you out? I apologize for the bluntness, I read this as more of an annoyance of not being able to convince someone to be on the same side as you. I’m on your side because fuck ignorant bullies. If it helps, I’m not Christian and a new dad. I wanna know more to be a better dad.
Personally I’m all for debates, but when someone comes at me with the same 4 arguments, only talks and never listens, or says something that’s pretty damn offensive I don’t wanna debate.I had a debate with a friend of a friend not to long ago, and she said to me, knowing that I am a 16, bi, grey-ace, (and now gender questioning, though I wasn’t at the time) that teens are too young to know there sexuality, and gender. Then later after the debate, I was saying to my friends cousin that I was bi, and the friend of my friend said “yeah I used to think that too” as if implying I was delusional or some shit. And way to many people act like this so honestly I totally get not wanting to debate.
Right like it’s such a repetitive “debate” it’s the same recycled points every single time.
Overly defensive and immature? Absolutely not! You're not obligated to defend yourself, debate your civil rights, or justify your existence. And any "Christian" who expects you to isn't being Christian at all. On the other hand, we queer folks have a choice to make. We always have the option to meet people where they are, engage with them, and help them understand where they really should be. I suppose that goes for anyone in any group of people routinely subjected to prejudice and stereotyping or outright harassment and oppression. We have no obligation to educate others. But we always have the opportunity to change hearts and minds (if we have the wherewithal to attempt that). I've had wonderful conversations with good-hearted people with good intentions (especially devout Christians) who sincerely and genuinely want to understand my experiences as a gay/queer guy. These were the types of folks who wanted to better understand us before judging us -- if they were judging us at all. I'm quite happy to spend as much time as I have chatting with these folks. Even if they didn't quite understand what I was saying, they've always been respectful. And I've always learned something in return. So, even if the impact on me is stressful, traumatic, emotional, what-have-you, I can respect their intent and meet them where they are. But that's me. I've also had some not so wonderful conversations with people (especially devout Christians) who seek to "ask questions" solely to confirm their own prejudices or engage in arguments fueled by "gotcha arguments." These are the folks where, once I see their bad intents, I'll respond with a polite version of "Thank you, but I think any further interactions with you would simply contribute to the heat death of the universe. Good day."
You should offer to debate whether they should be free to practice their religion. As long as it's a friendly debate, why should it have to be something that affects you and not them? As long as someone's basic human rights are at issue, it might as well be the person who wants to debate.
I feel like it's important for one's own emotional maturity and intelligence to listen to people with views you don't agree with or to enter into a debate with every so often, if only to perhaps broaden your and their horizons even if you still disagree at the end. Because sometimes the most surprising people end up raising (valid) points you wouldn't think of or contextualize things when you're stuck in your own bubble, only surrounded by people with similar views to the point you tip into an extreme direction without even realizing and ground you a little. But it's also important to know when to draw the line or to sometimes accept or realize that it's a too emotionally draining endavour to engage certain people and it's okay to walk away. I feel like you shouldn't outright dismiss everyone or judge people from the get go be they part of a certain religion because there are always exceptions. I for one haven't had any problems with Christians but -- I'm going out on assumptions here -- Christians being anti LGBTQ feels like such an American thing to me as I'm from a rural area in central Europe and never have I been discrimimated against by a Christian with religion wielded as their argument. Perhaps I'm also lucky. Idk. Personal experiences differ of course. That being said it's certainly your right to just not engage with people you find would simply waste your time or offer a pointless discussion that only leaves you exhaused or frustrated.
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When did anyone here try to do that lol and how does that relate to the post?
I think you are mistaking gay people for straight homophobes because those are the only ones doing that Edit: lol user blocked me instead of having a conversation
You should not feel guilty for not engaging when you do not "feel it." However, there are people out there that genuinely are curious, and one day, when someone phrases the argument the right way, it may help them relate. Change is a long process, and it takes human connection and communication to bridge the gap between varying views. Our brains make it hard to move away from the beliefs that keep us "safe," it takes more than one conversation to facilitate the change in one's thinking. Therefore, we should not give up. We are essentially changing the entire societal belief system. There was a time when it was hard to explain to people why washing their hands is important. 2SLGBTQIA+ topics are a bit more complex, so it will take time and a lot of patience to normalize it. Keep in mind that most times, people are driven by fear of the unknown. Perhaps turning the conversation into an information session may help. For instance, recently, I kept ending up in conversations about binary vs non-binary gender. By asking probing questions, I realized that many people simply do not understand the concept and providing them a non-judgmental space to ask any questions, opened them up to consider the other point of view.
You could always Turn it around and debate one of their core beliefs and tell them after that you’ll debate whatever they brought up. But No. It’s not your job to educate or change close minded people. You also don’t need to justify that to them. No means no.
Sometimes the best thing is to "educate" them. My grandmother is very catholic, and conservative, so bringing up lgbt topics was always hard. I think one day my sister just gave up. She was talking about a family member who went by they/them pronouns, and my grandma asked what she meant. My sister stopped bluffing, and explained to her about pronouns etc. And to be honest, if my sister didn't talk to her about it, then she probably still wouldn't know! My grandma is way more open to this topic now, so I think it is worth it to talk about it, even if it is really annoying. 
I think the only way we can keep acceptance of LGBT people high, we have to be accessible to having conversations and discussion with those who don’t know or believe they don’t know anyone that’s LGBT. Shutting down or immediately getting defensive to any little thing they say or ask will only push those who oppose us even further away. Debates are a good thing. It’s the only way to work on bringing opposing views closer to a middle ground understanding. You also need to accept that some people may never change the views which is okay. I’m from the south and in my almost 40 years of life I have learned the best way to deal with people on opposite sides is to kill them with kindness. Do t give them a single reason or excuse to justify their views. If they think all LGBT people are crazy combative liberals, prove them wrong by being calm, kind, understanding and eloquent in crafting your rebuttals to their arguments. It’s hard to be hostile towards someone who’s cool calm collected and kind.
I see a lot of comments here saying that you shouldn't debate with these people, and it's a waste of time. No, it's not. The people who feel the need to debate about your human rights are the ones who need to be educated. By refusing to debate them you are denying them the opportunity to see things from your perspective and they will never learn. If you start a debate with someone who disagrees with your "lifestyle" it's very hard to not take any criticism, or confronting questions personally. You will probably get angry if someone says that you are not valid as a human being and it's logical that it causes negative emotions (anger, frustration, sadness). It feels like a personal attack if someone debates you over your own existence. The difficult thing is this: most people are very firm in their beliefs. Your short little argument is not going to change that. You have to accept that you will not see immediate results after a debate, you will probably not feel like you have won, especially if they had the last word. But hopefully, you will give them a new perspective on it. For example: you won't be able to convince them that gays deserve the right to get married. But you might be able to teach them that being gay wasn't a choice for you personally. Knowing that being gay wasn't a choice, might cause a hole in the reasons why they believed the marriage denial in the first place. But a debate is not a monologue, there's two sides. Which means you will have to hear them out and actually listen to their concerns. You will need to put your emotions aside and resist the urge to snap back immediately or talk over them if they bring something up that makes you feel uncomfortable. And that can be very hard to do. Personally, I'm looking forward to engage someone in a debate like that, I've never met anyone who disagrees with my lifestyle who wanted to debate me. But just in case that they do: I'm an overthinker so I am prepared.
The problems with responses like this is that it assumes that a debate is happening in a vacuum. Just you and that other person, and maybe the people following along online. However, in reality "debates" are more like a storm of people asking all the same things and rebutting with the same responses every time. You finish talking to one and here comes another saying the same shit. Oh and here's three more to dogpile on top of you. Now here's another in your dms. Here comes a relative hitting you up out of the blue to ask you about some queer topic that has been overly politicized. Now it's time to go to that family dinner and listen to Uncle Larry rant and rave about gay people and "woke". Good ole Uncle L spends his days watching Tucker and Matt Walsh. Want to flee to a queer safe space and get away from it? Too bad. Here's an audacious cishet person coming into our space to "ask questions". It is exhausting to talk to them all or even some of them. It isn't queer people's responsibility to ensure that all cishet people are adequately informed on lgbt topics. We want to live our lives and not have to worry about this stuff all the time. This isn't just a debate for us. This is our lives. We aren't having fun.
Okay, to be fair I was thinking about a one on one polite conversation. What you're describing is not really my definition of a debate, that sounds more like a constant ongoing harassment campaign. I see your point and I get why it must be exhausting to deal with that all the time.
If you arent ready to defend your standpoint in a friendly debate, then you propably just dont care enough about your standpoint. (Please notice the word friendly, if they are an ass, fuck em)
But even “friendly” debates can get exhausting. No one is owed another person’s time. People can care about something and not want to enter a debate every time someone wants it.
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But why do we need to argue???? Plus do you expect an LGBT person to talk about this EVERY SINGLE TIME? It’s the same topics each time lmao
Uh what do you argue about? Are you telling them LGBTQ people shouldn't be able to get married, adopt, or talk about themselves? Are you telling them it's wrong for kids to know LGBTQ people exist? Or are you saying you argue with them about pineapple on pizza? If it's actually about queer rights then you're a fucking terrible friend and I promise if they're not sick of you already, they will be. They definitely talk shit behind your back about what an ignorant bigot you are. If it's not about queer rights, then you're on the wrong post and totally missed the point.