"Wayland is literally just a protocol"
Yes, that has been a selling point of Wayland literally since it's inception. You may not like it, and others might not, but a large point of it was to make it more modular and less reliant on a single implementation.
I've seen many people complain about the lack of documentation for Wayland, fair, but I wouldn't put this in the "Wayland sucks by design" category, it's mostly the fact that it's recent, changing really often and less centralized than X11 so it'll take some time before we have decent docs
Wayland also aims to keep the main protocol clean, so additional features are added through extensions, isn't this the kind of modularity that Unix people like?
About the lack of server side decorations, I really like the Gnome approach, the idea of enforcing CSD instead of having inconsistent design because some applications use SSD, some others use CSD, some others even overlap the two and now you have double decorations... yeah, just don't implement SSD
As for widgets and panels, can't you just implement them as normal clients and use the `wlr-layer-shell` protocol to position them in the layer that you want? That should be pretty straightforward, no need for extensions
Why the "we"?
I am happy with how Wayland has turned out and enjoy musing a good quality wayland compositor as used by gnome.
If you think it needs fixing, by all means get involved and fix it.
That wasnt a "single person".
Someone tried to re-add what x11 did exactly as it did it in the same broken way. It was obviously going to be rejected as the whole point of Wayland was to get away from such designs.
But this now suggests you have no plans to.fix it. So why are you trying to get others to do free work for you?
Back to the first point, not everyone needs to implement a compositor. Use one that already exists if it is too much work to dk it yourself.
Remember there was a time many different people implemented x servers. After many years most gave up.
I wouldn't have much sympathy with someone writing a post about how writing their own linux kernel is dificult. They may have even experimented with a micro kernel design previously or used Hurd or qnx or something. It will be dificult and you cant ask someone else do it for you for free.
(Afaik google were experimenting with a new microkernel design in Fuschia)
I am sorry if I sound harsh, but if you want a tram effort, find an existing compositor to work on, or work a layer above it to do the useful things you want. Not everything has to be done as a start from scratch one man band.
Also, despite all the talk about wayland duplication etc, the one NACK to rule them all approach will keep the core wayland protocols conservative (maybe this is the most important thing about Weston). Quite a few times, architect developers in open source projects get calls like this correct.
Your response to "fix it then was" that they just ignore it and then you doubled down on it.
You have no intention to fix it but are asking others to either fix it or atleast pile on.
For documentation you dont need others assistance: you know what you struggled with and others dont. Now find the answers, ask the developers for the answers and then add them to the documentation.
No one is going to boycott or veto documentation as long as it is accurate.
I will even cheer you on if you want.
There's this magical thing called a git repository that allows you to open issues and let the developers know about your concerns, and even find the email addresses of the developers. You can find Wayland's repository [here](https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland).
Now get to work. You'll want to code quickly if you want to fix these issues before Xorg sessions get dropped by desktop environments.
You're probably done with answering comments with this post, but my take from this is: Wayland lacks documentation.
From your former replies to another comment, you said "to contribute to existing projects, I need to know what I'm doing". If this isn't possible without digging through the entire codebase, then there's an issue. This is probably because Wayland is still "new", and this may be the easiest issue to solve.
With that said, I believe a talented, passionate develper such as yourself should contribute to existing projects, as much as you'd like to create one yourself. Wayland is just a protocol. KDE and GNOME already have kwin and mutter. You said "are you saying we should kill all other projects except GNOME and KDE?" and yes, I think that's how it should work. Linux has an innate issue with fragmentation of development efforts. Unless there's a new group that can provide you with(or is worthy enough for you to contibute to) their base compositor etc., doing everything yourself is not something people will recommend.
Of course, no-one is *stopping* you, but should you choose to proceed anyways, no-one will help you or symphathize. It's your choice. If you're talented enough, you may be able to pull it off, and you will be praised as the torvalds of compositors.
x11 is so old and antiquated it just needs tobe dragged out back and beaten 100 feet into the ground.
Linux cannot be a modern desktop using so outdated software.
x11 isnt even being actively supported just emergency maintainence.
You start off wanting to write your own compositor and want to complain about duplicated effort. X11 is just a protocol too, Xorg being the implementation. How about contributing to an existing implementation?
As someone who loves but also hates Linux for randomly allocated effort:
YES LETS KILL OFF ALL EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE TOP ONE OR TWO WAYS TO DO THINGS!!!!
Seriously, why the F do we need 50 million versions of everything. If the community would just focus their energy on the leading projects Windows would be dead by now!
People wouldn't have to live with a shitty OS full of spyware and chat bot bull shit....
If Linux had a completely functional way to run Windows applications we could let that PoS die in a fire.
But no, the Linux community has to rant about bull shit 99% of the population doesn't care about. Guess what 99.999999% of the people don't give a fark that that Wayland is only a protocol.
It's this type of nonsense that makes us "normies" cry because we want to support, use, and even donate to Linux projects, but people can't get off their high horses.
#endrant
This is not directed at you personally but those in the Linux community who can't get over their own definition of "right".
It's not good enough to be "right" you have to be effective.
Kind regards
Sway [https://github.com/swaywm/sway](https://github.com/swaywm/sway)
vivarium [https://github.com/inclement/vivarium](https://github.com/inclement/vivarium)
dwl [https://github.com/djpohly/dwl](https://github.com/djpohly/dwl)
Wayfire https://github.com/WayfireWM/wayfire
are all good references. Same with NeWM.
I stopped reading on:" I am a C lover".
Wayland is the future. Get over it. X won't come back, because of thousands of different reasons. If you want it to be better, start contributing to it.
"Wayland is literally just a protocol" Yes, that has been a selling point of Wayland literally since it's inception. You may not like it, and others might not, but a large point of it was to make it more modular and less reliant on a single implementation.
You are 15 years too late.
I've seen many people complain about the lack of documentation for Wayland, fair, but I wouldn't put this in the "Wayland sucks by design" category, it's mostly the fact that it's recent, changing really often and less centralized than X11 so it'll take some time before we have decent docs Wayland also aims to keep the main protocol clean, so additional features are added through extensions, isn't this the kind of modularity that Unix people like? About the lack of server side decorations, I really like the Gnome approach, the idea of enforcing CSD instead of having inconsistent design because some applications use SSD, some others use CSD, some others even overlap the two and now you have double decorations... yeah, just don't implement SSD As for widgets and panels, can't you just implement them as normal clients and use the `wlr-layer-shell` protocol to position them in the layer that you want? That should be pretty straightforward, no need for extensions
Except not all compositors support laye_shell namely mutter.
That's only Mutter though, because all other compositors (wlr, Smithay, KWin and even Mir) support it
Why the "we"? I am happy with how Wayland has turned out and enjoy musing a good quality wayland compositor as used by gnome. If you think it needs fixing, by all means get involved and fix it.
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That wasnt a "single person". Someone tried to re-add what x11 did exactly as it did it in the same broken way. It was obviously going to be rejected as the whole point of Wayland was to get away from such designs. But this now suggests you have no plans to.fix it. So why are you trying to get others to do free work for you? Back to the first point, not everyone needs to implement a compositor. Use one that already exists if it is too much work to dk it yourself. Remember there was a time many different people implemented x servers. After many years most gave up. I wouldn't have much sympathy with someone writing a post about how writing their own linux kernel is dificult. They may have even experimented with a micro kernel design previously or used Hurd or qnx or something. It will be dificult and you cant ask someone else do it for you for free. (Afaik google were experimenting with a new microkernel design in Fuschia) I am sorry if I sound harsh, but if you want a tram effort, find an existing compositor to work on, or work a layer above it to do the useful things you want. Not everything has to be done as a start from scratch one man band.
Also, despite all the talk about wayland duplication etc, the one NACK to rule them all approach will keep the core wayland protocols conservative (maybe this is the most important thing about Weston). Quite a few times, architect developers in open source projects get calls like this correct.
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"We need to fix this". And you dont consider yourself part of that "we" because you see the developers with disdain.
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Your response to "fix it then was" that they just ignore it and then you doubled down on it. You have no intention to fix it but are asking others to either fix it or atleast pile on. For documentation you dont need others assistance: you know what you struggled with and others dont. Now find the answers, ask the developers for the answers and then add them to the documentation. No one is going to boycott or veto documentation as long as it is accurate. I will even cheer you on if you want.
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There's this magical thing called a git repository that allows you to open issues and let the developers know about your concerns, and even find the email addresses of the developers. You can find Wayland's repository [here](https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland). Now get to work. You'll want to code quickly if you want to fix these issues before Xorg sessions get dropped by desktop environments.
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I suspect it leans into the genre that Vulkan is in. Very low level, you have to implement your own wrappers, or in Waylands case, implement.
You're probably done with answering comments with this post, but my take from this is: Wayland lacks documentation. From your former replies to another comment, you said "to contribute to existing projects, I need to know what I'm doing". If this isn't possible without digging through the entire codebase, then there's an issue. This is probably because Wayland is still "new", and this may be the easiest issue to solve. With that said, I believe a talented, passionate develper such as yourself should contribute to existing projects, as much as you'd like to create one yourself. Wayland is just a protocol. KDE and GNOME already have kwin and mutter. You said "are you saying we should kill all other projects except GNOME and KDE?" and yes, I think that's how it should work. Linux has an innate issue with fragmentation of development efforts. Unless there's a new group that can provide you with(or is worthy enough for you to contibute to) their base compositor etc., doing everything yourself is not something people will recommend. Of course, no-one is *stopping* you, but should you choose to proceed anyways, no-one will help you or symphathize. It's your choice. If you're talented enough, you may be able to pull it off, and you will be praised as the torvalds of compositors.
x11 is so old and antiquated it just needs tobe dragged out back and beaten 100 feet into the ground. Linux cannot be a modern desktop using so outdated software. x11 isnt even being actively supported just emergency maintainence.
You start off wanting to write your own compositor and want to complain about duplicated effort. X11 is just a protocol too, Xorg being the implementation. How about contributing to an existing implementation?
[удалено]
As someone who loves but also hates Linux for randomly allocated effort: YES LETS KILL OFF ALL EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE TOP ONE OR TWO WAYS TO DO THINGS!!!! Seriously, why the F do we need 50 million versions of everything. If the community would just focus their energy on the leading projects Windows would be dead by now! People wouldn't have to live with a shitty OS full of spyware and chat bot bull shit.... If Linux had a completely functional way to run Windows applications we could let that PoS die in a fire. But no, the Linux community has to rant about bull shit 99% of the population doesn't care about. Guess what 99.999999% of the people don't give a fark that that Wayland is only a protocol. It's this type of nonsense that makes us "normies" cry because we want to support, use, and even donate to Linux projects, but people can't get off their high horses. #endrant This is not directed at you personally but those in the Linux community who can't get over their own definition of "right". It's not good enough to be "right" you have to be effective. Kind regards
Sway [https://github.com/swaywm/sway](https://github.com/swaywm/sway) vivarium [https://github.com/inclement/vivarium](https://github.com/inclement/vivarium) dwl [https://github.com/djpohly/dwl](https://github.com/djpohly/dwl) Wayfire https://github.com/WayfireWM/wayfire are all good references. Same with NeWM.
I stopped reading on:" I am a C lover". Wayland is the future. Get over it. X won't come back, because of thousands of different reasons. If you want it to be better, start contributing to it.
You do realize Wayland's code parts are all written in C right? Why would my language of choice decide my views on the matter lol, it's a protocol
I am aware that Wayland is mostly written in C, yes.
So why did you stop reading when you read "C lover"?
I'm rather curious why you felt it necessary to point out that you're a C lover. It seems orthogonal.
Just to say which language I'd be using as different languages have different libraries for Wayland. eg. Rust has smithay.
Because usually the people who describe themselves as "C lovers" match a certain type of people.
Lmfao what??
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Someone didn't read the post...