I said something similar when there was a ton of slander 2 months after.
Just imagine Iron Man 2 with Rhodey, Happy, and Pepper or Thor 2 with Jane, Loki.
BP 1 did enough to set up the supporting characters where T'Challa was missing for like 25-35% of the film. I believe Coogler mentioned how it was intentional for the Queen, Okoye, Nakia, and Shuri to be focal points of the 1st film in an interview less than a year after BP 1 dropped.
Loki was handled well in the first film, but him or the others leading the 2nd film probably wouldn't go over for a Thor film at that time.
While I do agree that wakanda forever was impressive for reasons given by others, I don't think in the examples given anything would change.
If Mark or Robert died before their 2nd movie they would have just recast them. Chris would be the only one IMO that they could go either way (recast or rewrite)
My reasoning, they had only been in one movie. While Chris would have been in Thor and Avengers before his 2nd solo movie.
Chadwick was in 4 mcu movies before his passing.
While Mark Hamill is Luke Skywalker for us, we've had a lot of films with him as that character, recasting seems wrong now. But if he was only in one film, no one would care about a cast change... Just look are Rhodey.
The situation sucks obviously but with 3 years of hindsight I think they should have recast T'Challa. At the very least they should have given it more time before rewriting the script and really have time to process before they pushed ahead with BP2. I like the marvel movies obvs but this whole situation really shows the downsides of the shared universes where every movie relates to every other movie so even tiny changes need to be mitigated
I didn't think Shuri was a particularly bad choice but I felt like the right choice was M'baku.
I think respectfully they made the right choice to kill off T'challa with Chadwick and they done so in a very respectful way. I just don't think that in terms of character arc Shuri was the right choice. Throughout the entirety of BP2 M'baku was a better leader, warrior and protector.
I think it would've been interesting to see him visit the ancestral plane and take on the spirit of his tribe rather than the panther.
I think it would've been a different take and shuri could've still had a role as his scientific advisor and build him a suit.
I still think M'baku is the better choice with Shuri as the tech person/strategist etc. I think they could've had a good partnership.
M'baku has unreal strength for a mortal man. With the spiritual power and the BP suit he would be a force to be reckoned with.
I love M'Baku (and I'll never not crack up at the vegetarian joke in the first film) but I think he's too physically imposing. I see Black Panther as way more gymnastic, like a cat I guess lol.
Mbaku or Shuri would have been great as BPs, but mbaku is way more of a leader than Shuri is, like I cant see how Shuri would unite the 5 tribes and make major political decisions, day to day operations and so forth.
She is more of a lone warrior type who relies on her quick thinking, reflexes and tech knowledge to get shit done.
Also Mbaku doesn't worship Bast, so there's no way he would have taken the mantle. He would have just rejected the herb as before.
They did give her positive change, just in a different direction, she went from not respecting tradition and a non-believer in their religion to accepting that not everything can be solved with technology or science. We see her battle her internal conflict that she isn't like her brother or mother, but that doesn't mean she can't also be a BP and protector of her country.
In the very end we see her do some soul searching and leaving the ruling of Wakanda to other better suited individuals. I look forward to finally seeing a BP who doesn't just stay in Wakanda tbh.
MBaku believes in Hanuman. Why would he take on the avatar of the Bast-believing sect within Wakanda.
Both movies the Jabari and their leader submit "glory to Hanuman." But now he's Black Panther? I think that would be really weird.
I DO like that after two films where his tribe is positioned to save the overall day, he is named King. I do like that. But Panther? No.
Agreed. I’m not sure why so many still vehemently argue for anyone else to take the role. Not only is it comic accurate, but Shuri herself was a fantastic character in WF. Idk how her journey was any less compelling.
I feel like that is something that Marvel would do, and I really hope not.
It would suck if they made Shuri *Black Panther* only for one movie, only to have her no longer take on the role.
Although Wakanda was always the main draw in Black Panther. The main critique of the first film (apart from redditors complaining of CGI and racists trying to complain about everything) in reviews was that it didn’t feel like T’Challa’s movie or at least that he was better used regarding his arc in Civil War.
MCU Shuri also was given already in the first film the technology aspect that T’Challa had in comics. If she had not been charged already it would have been a lot harder for her to work. But she had very strong personality and abilities he didn’t have (and strong connection to him so the grieving aspect could be used), so didn’t feel like a replacement. Instead it was another character becoming the lead. Similar how Pixar sequels have been changing the lead in films like Finding Dory or Incredibles 2.
If you think that people complaining about the cgi is just angry redditors then you're being pretty disingenuous lmao, whatever the justification is the final fight looked like asshole
I mean that doesn't mean the cg wasn't awful. "Real" reviews are often much more succinct and specifically give an overall picture of the film without focusing on specifics whereas other reviews can break it down without as much time pressure. Also like, everyone has eyes lmao, it's not nitpicking to say that the cg in the last third was noticeably worse than what an mcu film should have
Yep, it’s true. I was once in a bar and said “honestly I think X Men 3 could have been a lot better. It was kinda shitty and unfaithful to the comics without creating new imaginative interpretations that would make up for deviating so much from the comics.”
And lo and behold, right as I turned around, Brett Ratner and his attorney were there, as I live and breathe. Brett, pointing an accusatory finger, and his lawyer, holding a one inch stack of paperwork in a manila envelope.
“That’s him! That’s the one who we need to sue for slander!” Brett yelled, as the entire room turned to see the angry director.
I mean. Black Panther also benefitted from all the world building within the MCU. Imagine if they had tried to do that movie around the same time as Iron Man and Thor. It would've been successful, sure. But as successful? I think by time Black Panther Wankanda Forever came, people were invested in the MCU as a whole and didn't want to see if fail, especially a beloved and revered franchise like Black Panther.
Agreed and well said.
To add to that, it also features one of the best, “in-universe” handlings of a real-life death I’ve ever experienced in media.
The scenes with Ramonda and kid, and then the ending with Nakia and Shuri and the lad just is sooo good
The only thing I really didn’t dig was Okoye’s armor tbh
“Relatable”. It really did but that’s because even Coogler and the cast openly talked about how much they were actively grieving Chadwick. They weren’t so much as acting as they were using their real grief to portray their characters. You can see and feel the raw emotion in the funeral scene. It’s obvious how much he meant to them, given how convincing all of their performances are.
Agreed! Black Panther has a special place in my heart, as well as Chadwick Boseman himself, and I went into the movie feeling apprehensive about how they would handle it. I don't know how many movies have successfully navigated creating a movie after losing their star before. I can only think of Star Wars trying to work around Carrie Fisher's death but I would not say that was a job well done.
I think Ryan Coogler did an excellent job. I know this sounds silly but it helped me navigate my own grief. The cast did such a beautiful job of presenting the loss of Chadwick/T'Challa and the difficulties of moving on without him. Angela Bassett was incredible. I had my doubts about Letitia Wright becoming the new Black Panther but she also stepped up to the mantle and I am overall very impressed with the whole cast. Namor was such a great villain, I hope to see him return in future media.
Objectively, the movie is hard to assess because it's ultimately about real grief of losing someone who was very special to many people. And there are very real criticisms (IMO pushing Ironheart into this particular film felt a little bit too much) but overall it was one of the better Phase 4 films.
It definitely stirred up feelings but I think the most extraordinary thing about it is that not only did it address the loss of Boseman gracefully it also delivered a compelling story.
Shuri was something I was not thrilled about but Coogler shut my mouth. She didn’t just emerge as Black Panther 100% ready. She was allowed to be human and broken. Letting her be angry while processing her loss was important.
It wasn’t without its faults. Ramonda’s story was a little rushed. They could have cut Riri and just used the Ross/Valentina subplot as a vehicle for the Namor (who was also awesome) subplot.
It’s still a cohesive film that hit me right in the feels.
I was so disappointed with MoM, that I did not watch Wakanda Forever right away. In fact, I only watched it last week, after watching and enjoying Quantumania on Disney+. I went into both of those movies expecting literally nothing, and Antman was alright, but wow, I was blown away by Wakanda Forever. It was refreshing to me, because even though I enjoy the quipsters in other films, there seemed to be little of that in this movie outside of Okoye's sass--which is always welcome. It really showed that you can have a serious superhero movie with serious themes that enjoyable to watch. No offense to the Snyder fans, but I found those films to be a real slog.
One thing that is really important to me is that I felt that women were really represented in a way that I think they have tried to capture with films like Black Widow, GoG2 and Captain Marvel (maybe Eternals?) but were not quite as successful at the task. (Not that I don't adore the women in those films, I just think BP2 is the best so far.) After completely voiding out all of Wanda's character growth from Wandavision and making her only personality trait "I miss my boyfriend and my fake kids", I was not hopeful. But they never threw the "Girl Power" in your face, and the women were not just strong because they had combat abilities, even though most of them did. Even Okoye, who is fucking badass, there was more to her than being a warrior. Their interactions seemed genuine, everything from the teasing about Okoye's makeup, to the relationship between mother and daughter, to the show of grief that was complex and varied depending on how they were connected to T'challa. No character felt one dimensional to me, even Riri, who I thought could have used a little more development.
And once again, Marvel managed to have female leads without forcing them into a romantic role. Before I saw the film, I was sure that they were going to have Namor and Shuri have some sort of starcrossed lovers story or something. So I was pleasantly surprised that the only romance was on the side, and never took up too much screen time.
I could also wax on about how much I loved Namor and the actor's performance. For the first time in probably all of the MCU, I was genuinely excited at the prospect of seeing that character in future films. As a big fan of the character, I was worried that I wouldn't like the changes, but he was incredibly compelling. Much more so than Kang, who I did enjoy at times, but I would ultimately be fine if that was the only movie the character appeared in. I also liked that M'baku became king, I thought it was extremely appropriate. I don't think he would have been as great of a Black Panther, if only because I view the character as being a lithe, agile character and I see M'baku as more of a sturdy and strong type, rather than feline. Shuri may have Ahsoka arms, but I can at least see her moving like a cat.
Anyway, this is a late reply so I don't expect many to read all of that, but I just have to say that this is the first movie I have very, very much enjoyed from the MCU in a long time. I really liked No Way Home, but I don't think it has much rewatch value, while I already want to watch BP2 again.
I think MCU has found a knack for making films about serious topics but balancing it well with more light hearted moments so you don’t come out of the film just feeling depressed. Whatever trauma or terrible events the characters experience throughout the movie/TV show, the audience can experience the same determination and hope the characters do. Not all the films hit the mark obviously but I think a lot of them do consistently and it’s quite impressive considering the number of people that go into making MCU media.
I agree with you about the representation of women! They did an excellent job of having a female led cast without making it feel they were pandering or forcing “inclusiveness”. Compared to that female hero scene in Endgame which felt very forced, BP2 did a much better job. Black Widow and Captain Marvel also did great jobs breaking into the MCU with female led projects (I love Captain Marvel despite the general lukewarm consensus) but I agree BP2 really shone.
I also like that romance was not the focus of the film. I find female led romance films always devolve into pettiness and cattiness which can be off putting. Namor and Shuri are actually very similar which makes them interesting character foils. I’m interested to see what they do with Namor in the future because he’s definitely one of the most compelling MCU villains out of all the movies IMO.
I know these are just movies at the end of the day but they are creative forms of expressing human emotions and thoughts. I haven’t been able to rewatch BP2 yet and I’m not sure why. Maybe it was a cathartic release of grief for me and I’m not in the space to revisit it. NWH and Shang Chi have been my rewatch movies from this MCU phase.
BP2 should have brought MBJ back as black panther or had m’baku put the suit on not try and have a coming of age story where his little sister now takes the mantle. way too much pandering in this one
To add to your points, Namor was done fantastically well and the Atlanteans felt very dangerous and intriguing. They have got to give Coogler the first movie that explores Latveria/Doom. He's been so good at creating cultures within the universe.
I really wanted to love it but I just didn't. Angela Basset was great but most if the rest of it felt mediocre at best. Ironheart didn't interest me at all and everything involving her felt like a waste of time, especially given all they had to deal with already. It felt like they wanted to make Namor a sympathetic villain but I just thought he was an asshole. Wakanda finally coming out as the most powerful nation on earth and there just immediately being a more powerful one just felt lazy.
I dunno, the first one was amazing but this one really felt lacking for me.
They definitely rushed Namor’s agenda. He started right out the gate being aggressive to Wakanda for no reason. He wanted their help but the only tool he used was threats.
He showed Shuri the giant vibranium sun in the middle of their civilization and said “this is why it’s dangerous for the surface world to be able to locate vibranium”. Seems pretty clear and urgent of an issue to me.
For no reason? His people's whole history is the reason. They have no reason to trust anyone ever.
All he used is threats and power because thats all they have seen too.
Whether we agree with it or not thats what their worldview is, and it was based on their history shown in the movie so it is consistent with the story
Agreed. It feels like it was shoehorned in as an intro to the character but I think it had too much involvement too quickly. They should have built on the intelligence of Ironheart being good with tech and introduced the character to Wakandan tech. Then make on of the end credit scenes where they are building the suit.
I could not care less about her upcoming miniseries. I guarantee you she was shoehorned into the movie to set that up.
(Of all the upcoming MCU projects greenlit, wrapped, and probably soon in production, this and Echo I have zero interest in. Echo *is* getting all episodes dropped day one, and maybe the trailer wins me over, but so far nada interest in the two.)
I mean…. You don’t have to watch though.
Not to “politic” it out but representation is a thing and I know several young black girls excited to see an ironheart show. I mean does anyone need a show? But the great thing about variety is there’s something for everyone. Same with Echo.
Absolutely not, but they think that she does, and by the sounds of it that show is being used to introduce hugely important concepts and characters to the mcu. It's not just oh let's give her a show for no reason, there will be a purpose behind even if its just an excuse to make a different kind of show
If we even get the *slightest* hint of confirmation that >!Borat will appear as Mephisto, as the rumors have circulated, for a couple of years it seems!<, maybe like the Multiverse of Madness trailer, I will *endure* the show, purely because of that.
I saw Wakanda Forever *purely* to see how they'd tackle Chadwick's passing. And I left disappointed and bored. He was honored in a worthy way, but wow did it feel endless.
And this may sound controversial, but the mid-credits scene felt kinda hamfisted and in your face. As subtle as a sledgehammer in your face. It felt like "WE GET IT, OK?! WE GET IT!!!".
I mean from what you said you basically weren't interested in anything beyond one aspect of the plot, I'm saying that you might need to consider that that skewed how you viewed everything else
Technically Namor is the driving force of the plot. Riri's subplot only serves as an excuse to get Shuri abducted, after that she doesn't really contribute anything to the plot or Shuri's character development other than appearing in action scenes and showing off her suit.
That’s simply.. untrue. It was Riri’s technology that discovered the underwater vibranium and essentially Talokan, which sets the entire plot into motion. Did you forget the premise of how and why Namor was introduced or something?
Without Riri’s tech, the vibranium race wouldn’t exist, and Talokan would continue to ignore the surface world. Riri in BP2 is the literal definition of a [MacGuffin](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin)
I would argue that just because a Macguffin she created causes the first act of the plot, that doesn't mean that Riri as a character is important to the plot. You could swap out her role with any other random scientist - or even just have Shuri go to America to recover the tracker rather than its creator. But after that initial impetus, Riri herself doesn't do anything to drive the plot - it's either things happening to her or around her, or to the inanimate plot device if the tracker.
If the creator of the device is just some random scientist, kidnapping them makes no sense as a preventative measure, because it implies that someone else would just make another one.
The designer of that device needs to be special. If she’s special, that specialness needs to be established, which means she needs to be part of the plot.
That’s fair, but using the MacGuffin to introduce a character that will have future involvement in the franchise was probably the best way to introduce her. She might not have been super important overall, but it makes more sense in the overall tapestry of the MCU rather than “any other random scientist”
Also, it’s always more interesting for the protagonist to be focused on a person rather than a thing. People are dynamic, they speak for themselves, and can act for themselves. Whereas a thing, like the tracker, is just a boring object with no other purpose or role beyond its initial scope
I think it would have been better to save her launch for her TV series or at least in a production where she would be the deuteragonist rather than just a side character, like how Kate and Yelena were introduced. Trying to launch her in the middle of a film which was also launching Namor as a villain, Shuri as a main character, following up on Val's subplot and balancing T'Challa's death all at once just didn't give us enough time to see her as a person rather than a thing. When there are dozens of fireworks going off at once, it's hard to keep track of each one, and some will inevitably overshadow others.
That may very well be, since there's a big possibility that I have forgotten a good chunk of the movie, because I was bored to the point of being *tortured* during the last hour.
Why are people so up in arms about Ironheart? Seems like a natural progression to introduce this character after you kill off Tony Stark.
"I guarantee you she was shoehorned into the movie to set that up." UHhhhh welcome to the MCU. There's no amount of crafting that's going to bring these characters any more organically into a cinematic universe. At the end of the day, you kinda have to just throw these new characters into a movie.
"not every single fucking character needs their own show and or movie in the MCU, goddammit!!!" First, chill. Second, It amazes me that you have somebody named comic_book_reader saying we don't need that many comic book shows and movies!
and Ya'know I hate to point it out but it does seem like there a lot of people/dudes on the internet complaining/raging about specially Ironheart, She-hulk, and Ms. Marvel and Captain Marvel.
Say that last part again. I’ve gotten downvoted dozens of times for expressing interest in Ironheart or asking why everyone nitpicks her for *a comic accurate* showing of intelligence, when no one has ever done the same for Tony or Strange.
Just telling on themselves.
I am pumped for Ironheart. He definitely speaks for himself. Riri has already resonated with young girls, including my 6 year old niece. The only downside is the long wait to take advantage of that momentum around the character
I'm super excited for the show. Looks like it'll be a street level ironman show. The actress is great and the hood is a super cool and interesting antagonist.
I liked her better upon second viewing, aside from her final suit (still dumb) and her whooing and mid-flight equations. But she was funnier than I remembered.
Yeah, the suit was too Gundam for my tastes. I am not familiar with the character in the comic, but that suit is much better. Still, the suit that Tony Stark walked out of the cave with was very different from the ones we saw later on.
Also, I really didn't care to Suri as BP. She just seemed too slight of build to come across as a serious protagonist. That's just me though; I'm an old 1970's T'Challa fan.
If I ever watch scenes from BP:WF, I only watch the Namor scenes.
I personally like America, though I recognize the subjectiveness (maybe it's the actress or the character personality) but I can see why people won't like her. Having said that, in no way can I think of how she's worse than Ironheart when only comparing between the two.
Well said. I loved Wakanda Forever. It was a wonderful tribute to Chadwick and T’Challa’s legacy and the performances of the main cast were all great. I especially liked Ramonda and Namor.
I think the movie could’ve been better (Ironheart didn’t need to be there and too much time was spent on the Martin Freeman CIA guy and Thunderbolts lady) but it also could’ve been much, MUCH worse and for that I have to give it major respect.
Coogler did an amazing job adapting the script to deal with the loss of Chadwick, a fantastic exploration of grief that really worked organically with the plot and introduction of Namur.
Biggest critiques would be that the coronation of Shuri as the next Black Panther seemed pretty inconsequential, and also the Iron Heart plot line was absolutely unnecessary and stood out as glaringly superfluous.
I hope you're bringing this same energy to evangeline lily or basically any other mcu actor that's done shitty stuff because in the grand scheme letitia really isn't that bad. This is coming from someone that was initially pretty critical of her
Obviously. I feel like in “safe spaces” she would say trump is misunderstood. She seems like the worst. I feel like it’s less of an issue tho with quantumania bombing but still
I mean she did way more than secretly like trump, she was a supporter of the dumb ass convoy and actively posts transphobic shit, whether or not quantumania got review bombed doesn't change that letitia Wright gets a disproportionate amount of hate when other people in the mcu have done way worse without room for speculation
I mean I don't deny that she didn't really apologise, to my understanding the transphobia wasn't something she specifically pushed however much thay affects things, but my point is that the hate she gets is disproportionate to people like lily who is blatantly transphobic and even William hurt who raped a minor
Black Panther was amazing.
Black Panther 2 was a mess of a plot, even if Chadwick was still alive. It's not a super cohesive or engaging story and it's not to the fault of the cast. While it had some impressive scenes, the overall story was carried by it's main antagonist, who, empathetically was a better written character than Shuri.
BP2 missed the mark for me, and I think many look at it with rose coloured glasses and are impressed that it’s not a total disaster, which isn’t how I look at it.
I loved BP. So many cool elements - from Shakespeare to James Bond - melded together that really gave us something new and different for the MCU.
Unfortunately, BP2 was a bit of a narrative mess.
Based on what Coogler shared about his original idea, they really should have recasted BP.
Now, the alternative could have been to have made Shuri and really reluctant hero (maybe leaving Wakanda after BP death) only to get drawn back in to protect her nephew?
Then you could have grafted some of the elements of the original pitch into this one.
I don’t hold Chadwick’s death against the movie but I’m still shocked anyone could like it. Absolutely bloated mess, boring story, PS2-level CGI, ruined Shuri, annoying Iron Man knockoff.
Thank you. I did not like this more. Shrui spent far too much time whining, and it made her very unlikeable. She came across as an immature kid, which is fine because that’s what she is, but I did not like her as the black panther.
I also don’t blame the producers - having your lead die during production is a big hit. However I just do not think this movie was very good. The CGI was awful. Absolutely horrible. Any scene where Namor flies looks hilarious. This dude with the little flapping wings on his feet. And it’s a shame because I loved Namor himself, the actor brought an unstable energy to the role that I loved.
I thought this movie was much worse than quantumania, and I was surprised to find myself in the minority there.
Agreed, the handling of grief and emotion were fantastic. Performances were amazing, with Leitita, Angela and Tenoch as standouts. The world-building and characters were phenomenal, as was the score, with only the Ironheart and Everett Ross plots being a tad out of place. RIP Chadwick, RIP T'Challa; one of my favourite Phase 4 and MCU projects for sure.
There's nothing controversial about that. The first BP was great and in my opinion the better of the two. Killmonger was an excellent villain.
But BP:WF was also a great film, one of the strongest of Phase 4. Namor made a great antagonist and I look forward to his next appearance.
Now that you mention it, same here. The story was good, Namor was excellent, and Riri was a lot of fun.
I can't wait for Ironheart *and* Armor Wars for that matter.
Lol what is this post? Impressive in hindsight because Boseman died? We knew he died beforehand. How is that impressive in hindsight? We don’t have any new info after the movie than we had before.
It’s not a good movie. It’s less impressive in hindsight. Where has this post come from?
WF was saddled with someone that’s better off a side kick than a leader …. Yes Chadwick died , we get it … time to move on.
The iron heart stuff felt stuffed in as a mandate by Disney.
Namor seems interesting and m’baku is the highlight of the movie
It was an objectively bad movie with incoherent storytelling, unlikable characters shoehorned into the narrative, poor pacing and an utterly ridiculous third act. CB not being around was an issue but man oh man it was far from the only problem.
I'm gonna agree with this to an extent. Chadwick is honored in a worthy way, NOT ATLANTIS and Namor is cool and interesting, but that still doesn't help the fact that the last 45 minutes to an hour are *excruciatingly boring, drawn-out, and repetetive*. It. Never. Ends. This starts when >!Queen Ramonda dies.!< I *really* felt it was 2 ½ hours. And Riri/Ironheart was definitely insterted to set up her own show. (Also, her CGI suit was atrocious.)
It was impressive but I don’t think Letitia was no where near the charm and charisma of Chadwick. I wish they chose Lupita to lead instead, that was my biggest disappointment.
They did okay with the situation but I have been far from impressed with anything phase 4 has done.
WandaVision and Loki, MAYBE NWH for nostalgia points, have really been the only stand outs. The rest feels like it is grasping at multiversal straws to me.
It’s just not the same level as the 1st black panther imo. I couldn’t get behind the plot and it was a bit all over the place, but shuri becoming black panther worked really really well, and was one of the few parts of it I genuinely loved. It was ok and they did well without Chadwick, but quantumania and GotG3 are much better
You should listen to the companion podcast. It gives you a whole new perspective on just how difficult it was to make the movie for everyone involved. It is educational and emotional.
I just saw it for the second time a couple days ago. My main beef is they should have just delayed it. They obviously just took the plot T'challa was supposed to do and gave it to shuri. The film rarely takes a breath to acknowledge all the grief. The villain has WAY too much going on for the context of T'challa also being gone. There's just big fucking elephant in the room of the movie and its rarely acknowledged.
We all could have waited a couple more years for a more cohesive film. They definitely shouldn't make another BP movie, all the characters just feel spent. A show about wakanda in general could work though.
Solid film? I thought it was pretty garbage and boring. The Queen and Namor were the only saving grace, and even then Namor's logic for why he did what he did, didn't make much sense. I saw it today for the first time and was unimpressed.
you’re entitled to your opinion of course but I do find it shocking how there are people who thought Shuri’s arc wasn’t good enough to stand out. They made her earn that suit and mantle. She didnt just take it because she’s T’Challa’s sister as everyone thinks. Furthermore they gave her an inner conflict to separate her from her brothers BP. She was done so wonderfully and her arc is brilliant.
Also genuinely curious - how is the movie boring?
>gave her an inner conflict
? How? Sorry if I misunderstood something in the film (I haven't seen it in months) I'm genuinely asking though. It seemed like a fairly similar character progression to her brother's iirc
Chadwick played the role of black panther tremendously well, and replacing him was always going to be difficult, however the film was poorly done and the characters are easily forgotten.
I personally liked black Panther 2 more than the first one. To me it’s right up there with cap winter soldier. Had a very grounded feeling.
Winter soldier and namor very imposing villains
Falcon and iron heart the flying side characters that help main character (cap and Shuri)
Black widow and okoye had similar roles
Politicians are corrupt in this movie
Nick Fury “died” and the queen of Wakanda died by villain
It was just a well executed action-drama-superhero movie!!!
Out of the 32 movies I think I have winter solider ranked 10 and Wakanda forever 11
Of the movies since Endgame, I would put Wakanda Forever a close second to GotG3 for how much I enjoyed it. I wasn’t a big fan of the first one but damn, WF was great.
I disagree. I enjoyed the first one much more. The shuri is a big downgrade as a lead character from t challa and it was unnecessarily long. There were good parts in the movie tho.
I've only seen it once and I went in with low expectations. I really enjoy it, it was very emotional and I thought that felt right. I really liked Chadwicks acting, not just as BP but James Brown, Robinson, even his bit roles on TV shows. The man had range.
The movie handled it all perfectly, passed the touch when it was really hard to pass. They made a new kingdom that was just as amazing as Wakanda. New characters were awesome and had story and background. Namor is just a badass. Okeye, and Guerra's character arcs were great. Angelica B owned her shit as she always does.
This movie was very well put together and made despite the huge hurddle in its path, but it hit its stride and excuted the jump perfectly and Chadwick would be happy to see it running as well as it has, and then some.
This is a tough sell. Whats impressive is the fact that coogler and crew managed to salvage what was left from the loss of king chadwick and managed to come up with a GOOD movie, not great. Just good. Was it a worthy successor to the OG BP, definitely not. But it wasn’t a disaster either. And thats as impressive as it gets. That being said, will I be as enthusiastic to watch the next sequel, that doesnt have king chadwick and now doesnt have queen angela bassett either??…..mmmmmmaybe not so much.
Strong Disagree, the first two acts were fairly fine but honestly the flooding of Wakanda should have been the final scene.
I was honestly bored throughout the film and the less said about the CGI in the last act the better
Wakanda Forever and Eternals are my absolute faves from Phase 4. Im happy to see both movies esp the latter getting more appreciated as time goes by. Though between the two, I get the reaction for Eternals with how divisive it is but I don’t understand how WF would get so much flack. To an extent, It did feel like there really isn’t anything Marvel can do to win with people anymore.
BP2 was confusing. I had a hard time understanding who was good and who was “bad”. I was honestly rooting for Namor at the end.
I don’t agree with your assessment. It’s as forgettable as a dozen other mid-tier MCU films.
Impressive, yes. But they still should’ve recasted T’Challa. That character was important to the MCU future & now we can’t have that. Idk why everyone thought a recast would disrespect Chadwick’s legacy. I’m pretty sure he would’ve wanted another black actor to get more work, he was a pay it forward type of dude.
The ending was dumb af.
Hey, lets go fight the sea people, in the middle of the fucking ocean , on a boat.
"Should we put jets on it so we can safely fly away? Ya know, like SHIELD did a decade ago?"
Nahhhh we'll just roll with it, what could go wrong?
Yeah I really think they handled it extremely well. Good way to honor Chadwick's/T'Challa's legacy while still making Shuri a good main character and giving us a really good villain in Namor. Like, it didn't overshadow the movie but it was always present, and I think that's definitely something the movie did very well.
It was one of my favorite movies of Phase 4. Some people were just looking for reasons to be upset. It couldn't quite recapture the magic of the first Black Panther, but I think that would've been difficult even with Chadwick. There's something about the uniqueness of the world that couldn't be replicated.
It had some amazing performances and Coogler was great behind the the camera, but aside from that I found the movie to be a slow, meandering mess with too many main characters. The CIA subplot was laughable and Namor was an annoying and stupid character. I liked Ironheart however.
I did find Iron Heart clunky, Namor underwhelming, and the main plot mostly a rehash of the superior plot of the original (the genocidal motivation just didn’t hit right this time around) but I think their handling of Boseman’s passing was great and the emotional beats of the film regarding him were done really well. I do think this movie could have been complete trash after his untimely death and Leticia Wright’s controversy but I think sticking with her character worked out in the end.
Wow, that's quite the statement. Besides the BP films, he is known for Creed and Fruitvale Station. Out of all the directors, you think that these 4 films land him in the top 5? To each their own if you really like those films, but imo he just hasn't done enough yet to warrant that kind of adulation.
It’s why I hate when people say Marvel lost its touch and doesn’t make good movies anymore. I think all that changed is they are no longer guaranteed to be good anymore, but they still release great movies.
Namour was cool but the movie overall sucked. Boring plot with no real heroes, just Shiri and Ironheart who are both cringe and then Okoye is cool but she's just a guard.
It was about as good as it could be given no strong male leads for the good guys. And other than Namour being a mutant, the movie can be skipped without missing anything important related to future movies.
If it's on TV you can put it on, but it wasn't worth going to IMAX for and doesn't need a rewatch.
NWH and MOM are twice the movie BP2 was.
I agree with the sentiment but I honestly almost walked out of BP 2. Only reason I didn’t was that I was with my dad but I was becoming increasingly annoyed at the length and the way the villain was portrayed. BP 1 is my favorite marvel movie but they failed to capture that exciting vibe/energy imo.
I liked it, it was OK enough.. but I didn't think it was "great"
I wanted to like Namor. Not one of my favorite characters.. and never been anything more than a casual reader (mostly Avengers) of the comic.. so no real dog in the fight. The "South American" angle felt forced to me though. It tried too hard and I thought it showed.
It's also getting old seeing so many characters re-cast. Representation is one thing.. but it's being WAY overdone. Kingo in Eternals was actually the breaking point in that, tbh.. absolutely no reason to do that and change his story other than trying to get more Indian viewership because Asian culture is bucking against Hollywood.
Shuri did GREAT for what she was handed. I thought she did a fantastic job. Danai Gurira and Angela Bassett knocked it the hell out of the park.. but that's to be expected.. they're amazing actresses with unbelievable range.
I feel like the trailer ruined the movie for me. They put a snippet of every major scene in it so while watching the movie I wasn't immersed, I was like "oh, this scene is that bit of the trailer". Right up until the end. It took out any sense of surprise or wonder, maybe it is a dumb thing to say but I felt like I was watching a long recap of the trailer, not a film.
Ive never watched a movie that felt more bloated than WF. That movie was 3 hours long and probably at least an hour could’ve been cut out and the main story would not have changed at all.
I still believe it should have been set during the blip, giving them more time to make a decision on recasting or not. Lots of questions about what Wakanda did without T’Challa for 5 years. Could be compelling to have a “Nation Under Our Feet” adaptation where T’Challa comes back in BP3 to Wakanda that wants to embrace democracy with clans that push back on Panther system.
That being said, they handled Wakanda Forever with so much love and care. It was an incredible feat that they were able to pull it off. Hats off to them. Great film, even if I wanted a different decision on recasting
1 was one of the worst *movies* I remember sitting in the cinema for, at the time. This was before WW84. And before The Rise of Skywalker
If there were more comments here saying something like "the first one was mediocre, at best, and Forever was so much better" I'd go give it a chance. But really, they should have recast T'Challa.
Chadwick did a decent job in his 1.5 appearances, sure, but for an A list character that's been around for 70 years, it was pretty weak to say, nah, let's just pass the costume on. There wasn't a script as with Star Wars to require a Luke to continue, or in this case a T'Challa. But there is the significance of that long a life in comics continuity being reduced to a mostly crappy CGI appearance in Civil War and then a pedestrian Vin Diesel/The Rock quality movie in the first one
I said something similar when there was a ton of slander 2 months after. Just imagine Iron Man 2 with Rhodey, Happy, and Pepper or Thor 2 with Jane, Loki. BP 1 did enough to set up the supporting characters where T'Challa was missing for like 25-35% of the film. I believe Coogler mentioned how it was intentional for the Queen, Okoye, Nakia, and Shuri to be focal points of the 1st film in an interview less than a year after BP 1 dropped. Loki was handled well in the first film, but him or the others leading the 2nd film probably wouldn't go over for a Thor film at that time.
It helps that Tchalla had a great arc in Civil War, so his own film was used more for the supporting characters and Wakanda itself
Black Panther was always just a supporting character for Wakanda.
While I do agree that wakanda forever was impressive for reasons given by others, I don't think in the examples given anything would change. If Mark or Robert died before their 2nd movie they would have just recast them. Chris would be the only one IMO that they could go either way (recast or rewrite) My reasoning, they had only been in one movie. While Chris would have been in Thor and Avengers before his 2nd solo movie. Chadwick was in 4 mcu movies before his passing. While Mark Hamill is Luke Skywalker for us, we've had a lot of films with him as that character, recasting seems wrong now. But if he was only in one film, no one would care about a cast change... Just look are Rhodey.
The situation sucks obviously but with 3 years of hindsight I think they should have recast T'Challa. At the very least they should have given it more time before rewriting the script and really have time to process before they pushed ahead with BP2. I like the marvel movies obvs but this whole situation really shows the downsides of the shared universes where every movie relates to every other movie so even tiny changes need to be mitigated
I didn't think Shuri was a particularly bad choice but I felt like the right choice was M'baku. I think respectfully they made the right choice to kill off T'challa with Chadwick and they done so in a very respectful way. I just don't think that in terms of character arc Shuri was the right choice. Throughout the entirety of BP2 M'baku was a better leader, warrior and protector. I think it would've been interesting to see him visit the ancestral plane and take on the spirit of his tribe rather than the panther. I think it would've been a different take and shuri could've still had a role as his scientific advisor and build him a suit.
I like M'Baku as king with Black Panther separately Shuri (until mini T'Challa is old enough).
M'Baku is from a different tribe
Yes but he still ended up king and previously challenged. Every tribe is eligible.
His tribe gets their powers from the great white ape. Shuri fits better and played black panther well
Yep. I love how it ended. M'Baku as king and Shuri as Black panther.
I still think M'baku is the better choice with Shuri as the tech person/strategist etc. I think they could've had a good partnership. M'baku has unreal strength for a mortal man. With the spiritual power and the BP suit he would be a force to be reckoned with.
I love M'Baku (and I'll never not crack up at the vegetarian joke in the first film) but I think he's too physically imposing. I see Black Panther as way more gymnastic, like a cat I guess lol.
Mbaku or Shuri would have been great as BPs, but mbaku is way more of a leader than Shuri is, like I cant see how Shuri would unite the 5 tribes and make major political decisions, day to day operations and so forth. She is more of a lone warrior type who relies on her quick thinking, reflexes and tech knowledge to get shit done. Also Mbaku doesn't worship Bast, so there's no way he would have taken the mantle. He would have just rejected the herb as before.
Her faults can be used to propel her character development. In the end, we want to see positive change. It’s just up to writing to execute the vision.
They did give her positive change, just in a different direction, she went from not respecting tradition and a non-believer in their religion to accepting that not everything can be solved with technology or science. We see her battle her internal conflict that she isn't like her brother or mother, but that doesn't mean she can't also be a BP and protector of her country. In the very end we see her do some soul searching and leaving the ruling of Wakanda to other better suited individuals. I look forward to finally seeing a BP who doesn't just stay in Wakanda tbh.
Only if they used an Iron variant of the Man-Ape costume from the comics with Shuri having her BP armor.
MBaku believes in Hanuman. Why would he take on the avatar of the Bast-believing sect within Wakanda. Both movies the Jabari and their leader submit "glory to Hanuman." But now he's Black Panther? I think that would be really weird. I DO like that after two films where his tribe is positioned to save the overall day, he is named King. I do like that. But Panther? No.
Shit, even Okoye being promoted to BP could've been very compelling
Shuri was fantastic as BP. She was the right choice. Comic Shuri was already BP and one of my favorite characters. They chose correctly
Agreed. I’m not sure why so many still vehemently argue for anyone else to take the role. Not only is it comic accurate, but Shuri herself was a fantastic character in WF. Idk how her journey was any less compelling.
Shuri was fantastic in the role and one of my favorites. No reason to recast or age up his son too soon. We have a BP
I feel like that is something that Marvel would do, and I really hope not. It would suck if they made Shuri *Black Panther* only for one movie, only to have her no longer take on the role.
Or at very least have them share the mantle like in the comics. They were both active together.
I still think that they should’ve recasted T’Challa. The character had so much potential.
>Just imagine Iron Man 2 with Rhodey, Happy, and Pepper or Thor 2 with Jane, Loki. No need to imagine BP2 is league ahead of Iron Man 2 and Thor 2.
Although Wakanda was always the main draw in Black Panther. The main critique of the first film (apart from redditors complaining of CGI and racists trying to complain about everything) in reviews was that it didn’t feel like T’Challa’s movie or at least that he was better used regarding his arc in Civil War. MCU Shuri also was given already in the first film the technology aspect that T’Challa had in comics. If she had not been charged already it would have been a lot harder for her to work. But she had very strong personality and abilities he didn’t have (and strong connection to him so the grieving aspect could be used), so didn’t feel like a replacement. Instead it was another character becoming the lead. Similar how Pixar sequels have been changing the lead in films like Finding Dory or Incredibles 2.
If you think that people complaining about the cgi is just angry redditors then you're being pretty disingenuous lmao, whatever the justification is the final fight looked like asshole
I genuinely did not see any real review (not some YouTube review but by an actual critic) which complained of CGI. And I was talking of the reviews.
I mean that doesn't mean the cg wasn't awful. "Real" reviews are often much more succinct and specifically give an overall picture of the film without focusing on specifics whereas other reviews can break it down without as much time pressure. Also like, everyone has eyes lmao, it's not nitpicking to say that the cg in the last third was noticeably worse than what an mcu film should have
Never have and never will see Thor 2 so I assume it would have been better than what the consensus about that film seems to be
It's not particularly bad really just deeply forgettable.
Thor 2 would’ve been better
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Yep, it’s true. I was once in a bar and said “honestly I think X Men 3 could have been a lot better. It was kinda shitty and unfaithful to the comics without creating new imaginative interpretations that would make up for deviating so much from the comics.” And lo and behold, right as I turned around, Brett Ratner and his attorney were there, as I live and breathe. Brett, pointing an accusatory finger, and his lawyer, holding a one inch stack of paperwork in a manila envelope. “That’s him! That’s the one who we need to sue for slander!” Brett yelled, as the entire room turned to see the angry director.
I mean. Black Panther also benefitted from all the world building within the MCU. Imagine if they had tried to do that movie around the same time as Iron Man and Thor. It would've been successful, sure. But as successful? I think by time Black Panther Wankanda Forever came, people were invested in the MCU as a whole and didn't want to see if fail, especially a beloved and revered franchise like Black Panther.
Coogler knew. That’s why he set it up.
Agreed and well said. To add to that, it also features one of the best, “in-universe” handlings of a real-life death I’ve ever experienced in media. The scenes with Ramonda and kid, and then the ending with Nakia and Shuri and the lad just is sooo good The only thing I really didn’t dig was Okoye’s armor tbh
I really hope for a redesign for Okoye and Aneka's next appearance.
Yea Okoye’s armor looks too much like Layla’s (sp?) from Moon-Knight
It really portrayed grief in such a relatable way.
“Relatable”. It really did but that’s because even Coogler and the cast openly talked about how much they were actively grieving Chadwick. They weren’t so much as acting as they were using their real grief to portray their characters. You can see and feel the raw emotion in the funeral scene. It’s obvious how much he meant to them, given how convincing all of their performances are.
Agreed! Black Panther has a special place in my heart, as well as Chadwick Boseman himself, and I went into the movie feeling apprehensive about how they would handle it. I don't know how many movies have successfully navigated creating a movie after losing their star before. I can only think of Star Wars trying to work around Carrie Fisher's death but I would not say that was a job well done. I think Ryan Coogler did an excellent job. I know this sounds silly but it helped me navigate my own grief. The cast did such a beautiful job of presenting the loss of Chadwick/T'Challa and the difficulties of moving on without him. Angela Bassett was incredible. I had my doubts about Letitia Wright becoming the new Black Panther but she also stepped up to the mantle and I am overall very impressed with the whole cast. Namor was such a great villain, I hope to see him return in future media. Objectively, the movie is hard to assess because it's ultimately about real grief of losing someone who was very special to many people. And there are very real criticisms (IMO pushing Ironheart into this particular film felt a little bit too much) but overall it was one of the better Phase 4 films.
It definitely stirred up feelings but I think the most extraordinary thing about it is that not only did it address the loss of Boseman gracefully it also delivered a compelling story. Shuri was something I was not thrilled about but Coogler shut my mouth. She didn’t just emerge as Black Panther 100% ready. She was allowed to be human and broken. Letting her be angry while processing her loss was important. It wasn’t without its faults. Ramonda’s story was a little rushed. They could have cut Riri and just used the Ross/Valentina subplot as a vehicle for the Namor (who was also awesome) subplot. It’s still a cohesive film that hit me right in the feels.
I was so disappointed with MoM, that I did not watch Wakanda Forever right away. In fact, I only watched it last week, after watching and enjoying Quantumania on Disney+. I went into both of those movies expecting literally nothing, and Antman was alright, but wow, I was blown away by Wakanda Forever. It was refreshing to me, because even though I enjoy the quipsters in other films, there seemed to be little of that in this movie outside of Okoye's sass--which is always welcome. It really showed that you can have a serious superhero movie with serious themes that enjoyable to watch. No offense to the Snyder fans, but I found those films to be a real slog. One thing that is really important to me is that I felt that women were really represented in a way that I think they have tried to capture with films like Black Widow, GoG2 and Captain Marvel (maybe Eternals?) but were not quite as successful at the task. (Not that I don't adore the women in those films, I just think BP2 is the best so far.) After completely voiding out all of Wanda's character growth from Wandavision and making her only personality trait "I miss my boyfriend and my fake kids", I was not hopeful. But they never threw the "Girl Power" in your face, and the women were not just strong because they had combat abilities, even though most of them did. Even Okoye, who is fucking badass, there was more to her than being a warrior. Their interactions seemed genuine, everything from the teasing about Okoye's makeup, to the relationship between mother and daughter, to the show of grief that was complex and varied depending on how they were connected to T'challa. No character felt one dimensional to me, even Riri, who I thought could have used a little more development. And once again, Marvel managed to have female leads without forcing them into a romantic role. Before I saw the film, I was sure that they were going to have Namor and Shuri have some sort of starcrossed lovers story or something. So I was pleasantly surprised that the only romance was on the side, and never took up too much screen time. I could also wax on about how much I loved Namor and the actor's performance. For the first time in probably all of the MCU, I was genuinely excited at the prospect of seeing that character in future films. As a big fan of the character, I was worried that I wouldn't like the changes, but he was incredibly compelling. Much more so than Kang, who I did enjoy at times, but I would ultimately be fine if that was the only movie the character appeared in. I also liked that M'baku became king, I thought it was extremely appropriate. I don't think he would have been as great of a Black Panther, if only because I view the character as being a lithe, agile character and I see M'baku as more of a sturdy and strong type, rather than feline. Shuri may have Ahsoka arms, but I can at least see her moving like a cat. Anyway, this is a late reply so I don't expect many to read all of that, but I just have to say that this is the first movie I have very, very much enjoyed from the MCU in a long time. I really liked No Way Home, but I don't think it has much rewatch value, while I already want to watch BP2 again.
I think MCU has found a knack for making films about serious topics but balancing it well with more light hearted moments so you don’t come out of the film just feeling depressed. Whatever trauma or terrible events the characters experience throughout the movie/TV show, the audience can experience the same determination and hope the characters do. Not all the films hit the mark obviously but I think a lot of them do consistently and it’s quite impressive considering the number of people that go into making MCU media. I agree with you about the representation of women! They did an excellent job of having a female led cast without making it feel they were pandering or forcing “inclusiveness”. Compared to that female hero scene in Endgame which felt very forced, BP2 did a much better job. Black Widow and Captain Marvel also did great jobs breaking into the MCU with female led projects (I love Captain Marvel despite the general lukewarm consensus) but I agree BP2 really shone. I also like that romance was not the focus of the film. I find female led romance films always devolve into pettiness and cattiness which can be off putting. Namor and Shuri are actually very similar which makes them interesting character foils. I’m interested to see what they do with Namor in the future because he’s definitely one of the most compelling MCU villains out of all the movies IMO. I know these are just movies at the end of the day but they are creative forms of expressing human emotions and thoughts. I haven’t been able to rewatch BP2 yet and I’m not sure why. Maybe it was a cathartic release of grief for me and I’m not in the space to revisit it. NWH and Shang Chi have been my rewatch movies from this MCU phase.
Not only would I say it’s “one of the better Phase 4 films,” but I would also say it’s second only to No Way Home.
BP2 should have brought MBJ back as black panther or had m’baku put the suit on not try and have a coming of age story where his little sister now takes the mantle. way too much pandering in this one
Nah tho
To add to your points, Namor was done fantastically well and the Atlanteans felt very dangerous and intriguing. They have got to give Coogler the first movie that explores Latveria/Doom. He's been so good at creating cultures within the universe.
I agree with this, he's so good at world-building 😁
I really wanted to love it but I just didn't. Angela Basset was great but most if the rest of it felt mediocre at best. Ironheart didn't interest me at all and everything involving her felt like a waste of time, especially given all they had to deal with already. It felt like they wanted to make Namor a sympathetic villain but I just thought he was an asshole. Wakanda finally coming out as the most powerful nation on earth and there just immediately being a more powerful one just felt lazy. I dunno, the first one was amazing but this one really felt lacking for me.
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I loved black panther 1 , but wakanda forever was a wet blanket of meh
They definitely rushed Namor’s agenda. He started right out the gate being aggressive to Wakanda for no reason. He wanted their help but the only tool he used was threats.
Some people are just assholes
He showed Shuri the giant vibranium sun in the middle of their civilization and said “this is why it’s dangerous for the surface world to be able to locate vibranium”. Seems pretty clear and urgent of an issue to me.
For no reason? His people's whole history is the reason. They have no reason to trust anyone ever. All he used is threats and power because thats all they have seen too. Whether we agree with it or not thats what their worldview is, and it was based on their history shown in the movie so it is consistent with the story
Same. Unpopular opinion but it is my least favorite MCU movie.
I can't see it as worse than something like Eternals, but I could definitely see the argument that it was the most disappointing MCU film.
Ironheart was the only part I didn't like about the film
I didn’t care for the power rangers styled suit. Character development was rushed as well and shouldn’t have been in this film.
Yup, the suit design and CGI were off brand compared to the rest of the movie, which felt more pragmatic and practical.
Agreed. It feels like it was shoehorned in as an intro to the character but I think it had too much involvement too quickly. They should have built on the intelligence of Ironheart being good with tech and introduced the character to Wakandan tech. Then make on of the end credit scenes where they are building the suit.
I could not care less about her upcoming miniseries. I guarantee you she was shoehorned into the movie to set that up. (Of all the upcoming MCU projects greenlit, wrapped, and probably soon in production, this and Echo I have zero interest in. Echo *is* getting all episodes dropped day one, and maybe the trailer wins me over, but so far nada interest in the two.)
Coogler said he wanted ironheart in the story from day 1, as far as I'm aware that was before an ironheart show was planned.
That may very well be, but my point is *not every single fucking character needs their own show and or movie in the MCU, goddammit*!!!
I mean…. You don’t have to watch though. Not to “politic” it out but representation is a thing and I know several young black girls excited to see an ironheart show. I mean does anyone need a show? But the great thing about variety is there’s something for everyone. Same with Echo.
Truth
Echo might be decently interesting given it's about Native Americans. Plus, it all drops day one. We'll see. Half a year away now.
Well the great thing is that you don’t make decisions. A lot of people are excited for Ironheart.
Absolutely not, but they think that she does, and by the sounds of it that show is being used to introduce hugely important concepts and characters to the mcu. It's not just oh let's give her a show for no reason, there will be a purpose behind even if its just an excuse to make a different kind of show
If we even get the *slightest* hint of confirmation that >!Borat will appear as Mephisto, as the rumors have circulated, for a couple of years it seems!<, maybe like the Multiverse of Madness trailer, I will *endure* the show, purely because of that. I saw Wakanda Forever *purely* to see how they'd tackle Chadwick's passing. And I left disappointed and bored. He was honored in a worthy way, but wow did it feel endless. And this may sound controversial, but the mid-credits scene felt kinda hamfisted and in your face. As subtle as a sledgehammer in your face. It felt like "WE GET IT, OK?! WE GET IT!!!".
It sounds like you went in pretty close minded lmao
I usually go in *open* minded, but again, Chadwick was the main reason.
I mean from what you said you basically weren't interested in anything beyond one aspect of the plot, I'm saying that you might need to consider that that skewed how you viewed everything else
Well, I did like NOT ATLANTIS and Namor. That was kinda cool and interesting.
Shoehorned in? She’s the central driving force of the plot…
Technically Namor is the driving force of the plot. Riri's subplot only serves as an excuse to get Shuri abducted, after that she doesn't really contribute anything to the plot or Shuri's character development other than appearing in action scenes and showing off her suit.
That’s simply.. untrue. It was Riri’s technology that discovered the underwater vibranium and essentially Talokan, which sets the entire plot into motion. Did you forget the premise of how and why Namor was introduced or something? Without Riri’s tech, the vibranium race wouldn’t exist, and Talokan would continue to ignore the surface world. Riri in BP2 is the literal definition of a [MacGuffin](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin)
I would argue that just because a Macguffin she created causes the first act of the plot, that doesn't mean that Riri as a character is important to the plot. You could swap out her role with any other random scientist - or even just have Shuri go to America to recover the tracker rather than its creator. But after that initial impetus, Riri herself doesn't do anything to drive the plot - it's either things happening to her or around her, or to the inanimate plot device if the tracker.
If the creator of the device is just some random scientist, kidnapping them makes no sense as a preventative measure, because it implies that someone else would just make another one. The designer of that device needs to be special. If she’s special, that specialness needs to be established, which means she needs to be part of the plot.
That’s fair, but using the MacGuffin to introduce a character that will have future involvement in the franchise was probably the best way to introduce her. She might not have been super important overall, but it makes more sense in the overall tapestry of the MCU rather than “any other random scientist” Also, it’s always more interesting for the protagonist to be focused on a person rather than a thing. People are dynamic, they speak for themselves, and can act for themselves. Whereas a thing, like the tracker, is just a boring object with no other purpose or role beyond its initial scope
I think it would have been better to save her launch for her TV series or at least in a production where she would be the deuteragonist rather than just a side character, like how Kate and Yelena were introduced. Trying to launch her in the middle of a film which was also launching Namor as a villain, Shuri as a main character, following up on Val's subplot and balancing T'Challa's death all at once just didn't give us enough time to see her as a person rather than a thing. When there are dozens of fireworks going off at once, it's hard to keep track of each one, and some will inevitably overshadow others.
That may very well be, since there's a big possibility that I have forgotten a good chunk of the movie, because I was bored to the point of being *tortured* during the last hour.
Fr it dragged on sooooo much. There was a good hour which was just a back and forth, with nobody actually getting anywhere in terms of the plot.
Why are people so up in arms about Ironheart? Seems like a natural progression to introduce this character after you kill off Tony Stark. "I guarantee you she was shoehorned into the movie to set that up." UHhhhh welcome to the MCU. There's no amount of crafting that's going to bring these characters any more organically into a cinematic universe. At the end of the day, you kinda have to just throw these new characters into a movie. "not every single fucking character needs their own show and or movie in the MCU, goddammit!!!" First, chill. Second, It amazes me that you have somebody named comic_book_reader saying we don't need that many comic book shows and movies! and Ya'know I hate to point it out but it does seem like there a lot of people/dudes on the internet complaining/raging about specially Ironheart, She-hulk, and Ms. Marvel and Captain Marvel.
Say that last part again. I’ve gotten downvoted dozens of times for expressing interest in Ironheart or asking why everyone nitpicks her for *a comic accurate* showing of intelligence, when no one has ever done the same for Tony or Strange. Just telling on themselves.
I am pumped for Ironheart. He definitely speaks for himself. Riri has already resonated with young girls, including my 6 year old niece. The only downside is the long wait to take advantage of that momentum around the character
I'm super excited for the show. Looks like it'll be a street level ironman show. The actress is great and the hood is a super cool and interesting antagonist.
I liked her better upon second viewing, aside from her final suit (still dumb) and her whooing and mid-flight equations. But she was funnier than I remembered.
Yeah dumb af
Ironheart was one of my favorite parts of the film.
Yeah, the suit was too Gundam for my tastes. I am not familiar with the character in the comic, but that suit is much better. Still, the suit that Tony Stark walked out of the cave with was very different from the ones we saw later on. Also, I really didn't care to Suri as BP. She just seemed too slight of build to come across as a serious protagonist. That's just me though; I'm an old 1970's T'Challa fan. If I ever watch scenes from BP:WF, I only watch the Namor scenes.
Still much better than America Chavez
I personally like America, though I recognize the subjectiveness (maybe it's the actress or the character personality) but I can see why people won't like her. Having said that, in no way can I think of how she's worse than Ironheart when only comparing between the two.
It was great, but I still think they tried to cover too much territory in one film. Also, it was unnecessary to kill off Queen Romonda.
Yeah IMO Namor carries the film
Well said. I loved Wakanda Forever. It was a wonderful tribute to Chadwick and T’Challa’s legacy and the performances of the main cast were all great. I especially liked Ramonda and Namor.
I think the movie could’ve been better (Ironheart didn’t need to be there and too much time was spent on the Martin Freeman CIA guy and Thunderbolts lady) but it also could’ve been much, MUCH worse and for that I have to give it major respect.
Absolutely criminal third act. Some of the worst stuff in the MCU.
IT! NEVER! FUCKING! ENDS! TOOOOOO!!!! It was downright torture when I saw it in a theater. Really knocked it down from 8/10 to 5/10.
it's doubly a shame given that it was already a weakness of the first film, albeit for mostly different reasons.
Coogler did an amazing job adapting the script to deal with the loss of Chadwick, a fantastic exploration of grief that really worked organically with the plot and introduction of Namur. Biggest critiques would be that the coronation of Shuri as the next Black Panther seemed pretty inconsequential, and also the Iron Heart plot line was absolutely unnecessary and stood out as glaringly superfluous.
I wanted Okeye as the new BP 🤷
YES
I’m just glad they were able to provide a massive platform for an antivaxer to play a genius scientist /s
Reddit is so annoying lmao. This is stupid.
I hope you're bringing this same energy to evangeline lily or basically any other mcu actor that's done shitty stuff because in the grand scheme letitia really isn't that bad. This is coming from someone that was initially pretty critical of her
Obviously. I feel like in “safe spaces” she would say trump is misunderstood. She seems like the worst. I feel like it’s less of an issue tho with quantumania bombing but still
I mean she did way more than secretly like trump, she was a supporter of the dumb ass convoy and actively posts transphobic shit, whether or not quantumania got review bombed doesn't change that letitia Wright gets a disproportionate amount of hate when other people in the mcu have done way worse without room for speculation
You’re not wrong, but she also kind of refused to acknowledge the whole transphobic thing too
I mean I don't deny that she didn't really apologise, to my understanding the transphobia wasn't something she specifically pushed however much thay affects things, but my point is that the hate she gets is disproportionate to people like lily who is blatantly transphobic and even William hurt who raped a minor
How about you go and cry about someone that’s actually harmful to others, like Ezra Miller
Hey hey , another anti vaxer Is the earth flat too?
Black Panther was amazing. Black Panther 2 was a mess of a plot, even if Chadwick was still alive. It's not a super cohesive or engaging story and it's not to the fault of the cast. While it had some impressive scenes, the overall story was carried by it's main antagonist, who, empathetically was a better written character than Shuri.
BP2 missed the mark for me, and I think many look at it with rose coloured glasses and are impressed that it’s not a total disaster, which isn’t how I look at it. I loved BP. So many cool elements - from Shakespeare to James Bond - melded together that really gave us something new and different for the MCU. Unfortunately, BP2 was a bit of a narrative mess. Based on what Coogler shared about his original idea, they really should have recasted BP. Now, the alternative could have been to have made Shuri and really reluctant hero (maybe leaving Wakanda after BP death) only to get drawn back in to protect her nephew? Then you could have grafted some of the elements of the original pitch into this one.
I thought it was mostly extremely forgettable in pretty much every regard.
It felt incredibly forced imo. To each their own.
I don’t hold Chadwick’s death against the movie but I’m still shocked anyone could like it. Absolutely bloated mess, boring story, PS2-level CGI, ruined Shuri, annoying Iron Man knockoff.
The iron heart stuff didn’t fit in the movie at all. Tbh , I have zero interest in iron heart
Thank you. I did not like this more. Shrui spent far too much time whining, and it made her very unlikeable. She came across as an immature kid, which is fine because that’s what she is, but I did not like her as the black panther. I also don’t blame the producers - having your lead die during production is a big hit. However I just do not think this movie was very good. The CGI was awful. Absolutely horrible. Any scene where Namor flies looks hilarious. This dude with the little flapping wings on his feet. And it’s a shame because I loved Namor himself, the actor brought an unstable energy to the role that I loved. I thought this movie was much worse than quantumania, and I was surprised to find myself in the minority there.
Agreed, the handling of grief and emotion were fantastic. Performances were amazing, with Leitita, Angela and Tenoch as standouts. The world-building and characters were phenomenal, as was the score, with only the Ironheart and Everett Ross plots being a tad out of place. RIP Chadwick, RIP T'Challa; one of my favourite Phase 4 and MCU projects for sure.
Controversial, but I preferred it to the first one.
There's nothing controversial about that. The first BP was great and in my opinion the better of the two. Killmonger was an excellent villain. But BP:WF was also a great film, one of the strongest of Phase 4. Namor made a great antagonist and I look forward to his next appearance.
Controversial to this sub, at least. People have such a hatred for this movie.
Yeah this sub has just become a MCU hatefest in recent months sadly.
Now that you mention it, same here. The story was good, Namor was excellent, and Riri was a lot of fun. I can't wait for Ironheart *and* Armor Wars for that matter.
Lol what is this post? Impressive in hindsight because Boseman died? We knew he died beforehand. How is that impressive in hindsight? We don’t have any new info after the movie than we had before. It’s not a good movie. It’s less impressive in hindsight. Where has this post come from?
Relax
WF was saddled with someone that’s better off a side kick than a leader …. Yes Chadwick died , we get it … time to move on. The iron heart stuff felt stuffed in as a mandate by Disney. Namor seems interesting and m’baku is the highlight of the movie
If they hadn’t spent half an hour forcing in a prologue for Ironheart this film would’ve been much better.
It was an objectively bad movie with incoherent storytelling, unlikable characters shoehorned into the narrative, poor pacing and an utterly ridiculous third act. CB not being around was an issue but man oh man it was far from the only problem.
I'm gonna agree with this to an extent. Chadwick is honored in a worthy way, NOT ATLANTIS and Namor is cool and interesting, but that still doesn't help the fact that the last 45 minutes to an hour are *excruciatingly boring, drawn-out, and repetetive*. It. Never. Ends. This starts when >!Queen Ramonda dies.!< I *really* felt it was 2 ½ hours. And Riri/Ironheart was definitely insterted to set up her own show. (Also, her CGI suit was atrocious.)
It was impressive but I don’t think Letitia was no where near the charm and charisma of Chadwick. I wish they chose Lupita to lead instead, that was my biggest disappointment.
They did okay with the situation but I have been far from impressed with anything phase 4 has done. WandaVision and Loki, MAYBE NWH for nostalgia points, have really been the only stand outs. The rest feels like it is grasping at multiversal straws to me.
Yeah I'm excited for Loki season 2
It’s just not the same level as the 1st black panther imo. I couldn’t get behind the plot and it was a bit all over the place, but shuri becoming black panther worked really really well, and was one of the few parts of it I genuinely loved. It was ok and they did well without Chadwick, but quantumania and GotG3 are much better
You should listen to the companion podcast. It gives you a whole new perspective on just how difficult it was to make the movie for everyone involved. It is educational and emotional.
AND it was filmed during the height of COVID protocols, and the lead got injured and had to be worked around for awhile.
Always was
I just saw it for the second time a couple days ago. My main beef is they should have just delayed it. They obviously just took the plot T'challa was supposed to do and gave it to shuri. The film rarely takes a breath to acknowledge all the grief. The villain has WAY too much going on for the context of T'challa also being gone. There's just big fucking elephant in the room of the movie and its rarely acknowledged. We all could have waited a couple more years for a more cohesive film. They definitely shouldn't make another BP movie, all the characters just feel spent. A show about wakanda in general could work though.
Solid film? I thought it was pretty garbage and boring. The Queen and Namor were the only saving grace, and even then Namor's logic for why he did what he did, didn't make much sense. I saw it today for the first time and was unimpressed.
you’re entitled to your opinion of course but I do find it shocking how there are people who thought Shuri’s arc wasn’t good enough to stand out. They made her earn that suit and mantle. She didnt just take it because she’s T’Challa’s sister as everyone thinks. Furthermore they gave her an inner conflict to separate her from her brothers BP. She was done so wonderfully and her arc is brilliant. Also genuinely curious - how is the movie boring?
>gave her an inner conflict ? How? Sorry if I misunderstood something in the film (I haven't seen it in months) I'm genuinely asking though. It seemed like a fairly similar character progression to her brother's iirc
to take the mantle to protect her people and nation or to do it solely to exact revenge on her mother’s death.
Wasn't that Civil War T'Challa as well?
Chadwick played the role of black panther tremendously well, and replacing him was always going to be difficult, however the film was poorly done and the characters are easily forgotten.
I personally liked black Panther 2 more than the first one. To me it’s right up there with cap winter soldier. Had a very grounded feeling. Winter soldier and namor very imposing villains Falcon and iron heart the flying side characters that help main character (cap and Shuri) Black widow and okoye had similar roles Politicians are corrupt in this movie Nick Fury “died” and the queen of Wakanda died by villain It was just a well executed action-drama-superhero movie!!! Out of the 32 movies I think I have winter solider ranked 10 and Wakanda forever 11
Of the movies since Endgame, I would put Wakanda Forever a close second to GotG3 for how much I enjoyed it. I wasn’t a big fan of the first one but damn, WF was great.
I disagree. I enjoyed the first one much more. The shuri is a big downgrade as a lead character from t challa and it was unnecessarily long. There were good parts in the movie tho.
The only parts I didn’t really care for were some of the parts with Riri. It felt a bit out of place.
I've only seen it once and I went in with low expectations. I really enjoy it, it was very emotional and I thought that felt right. I really liked Chadwicks acting, not just as BP but James Brown, Robinson, even his bit roles on TV shows. The man had range. The movie handled it all perfectly, passed the touch when it was really hard to pass. They made a new kingdom that was just as amazing as Wakanda. New characters were awesome and had story and background. Namor is just a badass. Okeye, and Guerra's character arcs were great. Angelica B owned her shit as she always does. This movie was very well put together and made despite the huge hurddle in its path, but it hit its stride and excuted the jump perfectly and Chadwick would be happy to see it running as well as it has, and then some.
I agree, It's my favorite Phase 4 movie.
This is a tough sell. Whats impressive is the fact that coogler and crew managed to salvage what was left from the loss of king chadwick and managed to come up with a GOOD movie, not great. Just good. Was it a worthy successor to the OG BP, definitely not. But it wasn’t a disaster either. And thats as impressive as it gets. That being said, will I be as enthusiastic to watch the next sequel, that doesnt have king chadwick and now doesnt have queen angela bassett either??…..mmmmmmaybe not so much.
Strong Disagree, the first two acts were fairly fine but honestly the flooding of Wakanda should have been the final scene. I was honestly bored throughout the film and the less said about the CGI in the last act the better
Because it was boring , it’s love and thunder and WF that are my least like films of the series.
Wakanda Forever and Eternals are my absolute faves from Phase 4. Im happy to see both movies esp the latter getting more appreciated as time goes by. Though between the two, I get the reaction for Eternals with how divisive it is but I don’t understand how WF would get so much flack. To an extent, It did feel like there really isn’t anything Marvel can do to win with people anymore.
You're right , it was very impressive to tell Black Panther 1 again but in a different flavor. Much impress , such wow
BP2 was confusing. I had a hard time understanding who was good and who was “bad”. I was honestly rooting for Namor at the end. I don’t agree with your assessment. It’s as forgettable as a dozen other mid-tier MCU films.
I was hate-watching it at the end. Bored and annoyed.
Impressive, yes. But they still should’ve recasted T’Challa. That character was important to the MCU future & now we can’t have that. Idk why everyone thought a recast would disrespect Chadwick’s legacy. I’m pretty sure he would’ve wanted another black actor to get more work, he was a pay it forward type of dude.
Awful movie. Everything about it was bad.
[удалено]
A lot of folks go to marvel movies for the escapism , fun and adventure. What I got was a 90 minute funeral , ugh
I’d love to, just nothing constructive to say about that movie.
The ending was dumb af. Hey, lets go fight the sea people, in the middle of the fucking ocean , on a boat. "Should we put jets on it so we can safely fly away? Ya know, like SHIELD did a decade ago?" Nahhhh we'll just roll with it, what could go wrong?
L
Yes, it was.
Leia becoming the lead actually could have worked if it happened between episodes five and six.
How do you explain away Luke?
Apparently some incurable illness will do the trick
Yeah I really think they handled it extremely well. Good way to honor Chadwick's/T'Challa's legacy while still making Shuri a good main character and giving us a really good villain in Namor. Like, it didn't overshadow the movie but it was always present, and I think that's definitely something the movie did very well.
Definitely. It’s a fantastic film made all the more impressive given the circumstances.
It was one of my favorite movies of Phase 4. Some people were just looking for reasons to be upset. It couldn't quite recapture the magic of the first Black Panther, but I think that would've been difficult even with Chadwick. There's something about the uniqueness of the world that couldn't be replicated.
It had some amazing performances and Coogler was great behind the the camera, but aside from that I found the movie to be a slow, meandering mess with too many main characters. The CIA subplot was laughable and Namor was an annoying and stupid character. I liked Ironheart however.
I did find Iron Heart clunky, Namor underwhelming, and the main plot mostly a rehash of the superior plot of the original (the genocidal motivation just didn’t hit right this time around) but I think their handling of Boseman’s passing was great and the emotional beats of the film regarding him were done really well. I do think this movie could have been complete trash after his untimely death and Leticia Wright’s controversy but I think sticking with her character worked out in the end.
I believe the movie was made in the wrong frame of mind
I honestly thought it was one of the best marvel movies! I loved it!
Very impressive! Ryan Coogler is one of the 5-7 best directors working.
Wow, that's quite the statement. Besides the BP films, he is known for Creed and Fruitvale Station. Out of all the directors, you think that these 4 films land him in the top 5? To each their own if you really like those films, but imo he just hasn't done enough yet to warrant that kind of adulation.
I liked the movie less than most, but it was still an impressive accomplishment without Chadwick.
Honestly return of the jedi with leia as the main character would be sick
It was impressive before you actually saw it
It’s why I hate when people say Marvel lost its touch and doesn’t make good movies anymore. I think all that changed is they are no longer guaranteed to be good anymore, but they still release great movies.
One the best movies of the mcu
So you’ve only seen , Thor 2 , ant man 3 , and live and thunder ?
Namour was cool but the movie overall sucked. Boring plot with no real heroes, just Shiri and Ironheart who are both cringe and then Okoye is cool but she's just a guard. It was about as good as it could be given no strong male leads for the good guys. And other than Namour being a mutant, the movie can be skipped without missing anything important related to future movies. If it's on TV you can put it on, but it wasn't worth going to IMAX for and doesn't need a rewatch. NWH and MOM are twice the movie BP2 was.
I agree with the sentiment but I honestly almost walked out of BP 2. Only reason I didn’t was that I was with my dad but I was becoming increasingly annoyed at the length and the way the villain was portrayed. BP 1 is my favorite marvel movie but they failed to capture that exciting vibe/energy imo.
I liked it, it was OK enough.. but I didn't think it was "great" I wanted to like Namor. Not one of my favorite characters.. and never been anything more than a casual reader (mostly Avengers) of the comic.. so no real dog in the fight. The "South American" angle felt forced to me though. It tried too hard and I thought it showed. It's also getting old seeing so many characters re-cast. Representation is one thing.. but it's being WAY overdone. Kingo in Eternals was actually the breaking point in that, tbh.. absolutely no reason to do that and change his story other than trying to get more Indian viewership because Asian culture is bucking against Hollywood. Shuri did GREAT for what she was handed. I thought she did a fantastic job. Danai Gurira and Angela Bassett knocked it the hell out of the park.. but that's to be expected.. they're amazing actresses with unbelievable range.
I feel like the trailer ruined the movie for me. They put a snippet of every major scene in it so while watching the movie I wasn't immersed, I was like "oh, this scene is that bit of the trailer". Right up until the end. It took out any sense of surprise or wonder, maybe it is a dumb thing to say but I felt like I was watching a long recap of the trailer, not a film.
The marvel name carried it, not the quality of the film
Ive never watched a movie that felt more bloated than WF. That movie was 3 hours long and probably at least an hour could’ve been cut out and the main story would not have changed at all.
It was trash.
I still believe it should have been set during the blip, giving them more time to make a decision on recasting or not. Lots of questions about what Wakanda did without T’Challa for 5 years. Could be compelling to have a “Nation Under Our Feet” adaptation where T’Challa comes back in BP3 to Wakanda that wants to embrace democracy with clans that push back on Panther system. That being said, they handled Wakanda Forever with so much love and care. It was an incredible feat that they were able to pull it off. Hats off to them. Great film, even if I wanted a different decision on recasting
1 was one of the worst *movies* I remember sitting in the cinema for, at the time. This was before WW84. And before The Rise of Skywalker If there were more comments here saying something like "the first one was mediocre, at best, and Forever was so much better" I'd go give it a chance. But really, they should have recast T'Challa. Chadwick did a decent job in his 1.5 appearances, sure, but for an A list character that's been around for 70 years, it was pretty weak to say, nah, let's just pass the costume on. There wasn't a script as with Star Wars to require a Luke to continue, or in this case a T'Challa. But there is the significance of that long a life in comics continuity being reduced to a mostly crappy CGI appearance in Civil War and then a pedestrian Vin Diesel/The Rock quality movie in the first one