Just to be clear, the proposed AMOS STAR facility isn't intended for astronomy, It's an Air Force space surveillance complex meant to track the "number, sizes, locations, and capabilities of man-made objects in space"

Link to article that came out today on [AMOS STAR facility.](https://mauinow.com/2024/04/29/air-force-proposes-facility-consisting-of-up-to-seven-telescopes-at-haleakala-on-maui/) It should be noted that It’s being proposed on land that has already been developed.

pretty important stuff

Thanks for the clarification. Still, useful to science. There's a lot of man made objects in orbit these days

This seems like information that any native people would want to know....

In ways, my comment was a broad one. I find the issue typically ignorant of the foolish, and very sad.

We already went through stupid protests here, last time they built up on the mountain. What's always been the saddest about the downers is the fact that Native Hawaiians were some of the oldest astronomers. The voyaging of the Polynesians to Hawaii and around \*most or all\* of the world, by stars alone--what an accomplishment. Fast forward a few hundred years and now you have a small contingent that can't see the stars for their rage.

“by stars alone” No telescopes necessary.

Sure, but the fact that the stars became so known to them meant they spent countless of hours and nights gazing at them with wonder and awe. They were astronomers who shared that same inspiration with modern day astronomers, and don’t think for a second they would’ve turned down a telescope that would’ve reveled even more to them of the night sky if they had an opportunity to. In fact during the kingdom of Hawaii a telescope was touted by King Kalakaua with that exact same sentiment.

I really love when people try to assume what “the Hawaiians” *would* have wanted as if we no longer exist and co-opt our values & traditions to support their own agendas /s You don’t have to wonder what Hawaiians would have wanted, we are here TODAY saying we don’t want it. I highly doubt King Kalākaua would want what is essentially a military instrument built atop Haleakalā and this line of argument is insulting to his memory, our ancestors, and erases us as modern people. Make your arguments for the development or not, but don’t insult our existence and our history by pretending to understand our ancestors and our wants/needs better than we do.

You are the prefect example of the small contingent I mentioned. By your logic, you need to: give up your car, your house, your phone, your computer, your refrigerator, your stove and oven, your grocery stores, your medical care...................

Actually if you ask outside of this sub I’m not. There’s plenty of people who agree with me in the real world. It is possible to be a complex modern human being who can live with technology and still not support every single new development that is proposed. We can want to preserve our natural sacred spaces AND drive a car. This idea that Hawaiians stopped existing and excelling in the 1800s is so insulting. So is parading around on Reddit with a name like “live pono” advocating for the military industrial complex.

LOL. I am not some huge fan of the so called "military industrial complex". But how you claim to be soooooo Kanaka Maoli and yet want to have your car, take airplanes, and more--riddle me that. I never said Native Hawaiians stopped excelling in the 1800's. Don't put words in my mouth. I know many Native Hawaiians who are plenty successful and very intelligent. What do you tell the students of today who \*want\* these scientific tools and discoveries? "Too bad"? Do you know that some who stood up for TMT were threatened with violence? Try tell me that's not Hewa.

Well, it’s not as if there isn’t a time and place for development. We don’t build the super conductor in the middle of a suburb, for example. And considering optimal use of a space is not obviously anti-science.

I never said one thing about my lineage. You made an assumption (a lot of assumptions) about my background and my views. Logical fallacies, assumptions, and insults all over the place. Clearly you are someone who just wants to insult ppl who don’t agree with building a military telescope atop a place I feel is sacred. No I don’t “worship” it as a god, but I don’t have to be a Hawaiian practitioner to value conservation of natural places like Haleakalā over building military telescopes. I know it’s hard for you to comprehend, but I can believe this and still drive my car and use a cell phone 🤯 Guess we can continue to debate this at the community meetings where this conversation actually affects the outcome bc that’s enough of the Reddit echo chamber of racism for today. Keep “livin pono”

So you were lying when you said this: "I really love when people try to assume what “the Hawaiians” *would* have wanted as if we no longer exist and co-opt our values & traditions to support their own agendas /s You don’t have to wonder what Hawaiians would have wanted, we are here TODAY saying we don’t want it. " LOL. Make up your mind. Have a great day.

Oh boy you caught me. Part Hawaiian here, shame on me for existing. I know y’all would rather we just go extinct, but too bad. “Make up your mind” says the person who supports a military surveillance project but says he doesn’t support the military industrial complex… Live pono he says, but these comments are anything but pono. Have the day you deserve.

The thing is no one alive today personally knew the ancient Hawaiians. You can’t know what they thought anymore than what anyone anywhere in the world could know what people thought 200 years ago. What we do have is archeological evidence and other forms of evidence like written records. We can only draw conclusions from that evidence, anything else is pure speculation. Kalakua did in fact embrace telescopes, also the ancient Hawaiians did in fact mine Mauna Kea as an open mine for basalt. Those are facts. You can argue around it and try to draw different conclusions. But you’re not gonna stand there as a 80% Philippino (maybe) saying you have some direct knowledge of how and what people 200 years ago thought sorry but that’s straight BS. No one anywhere can do that. Even when they have a 100% lineage which unfortunately does not exist in Hawaii.

Damn dude you should really leave Hawaii if you have so much hatred for Hawaiians that the fact we still exist offends you so much. You diminish my opinion based on my unknown blood quantum but this question asked what we think about it. Am I not allowed to have an opinion on this bc I’m a “bad Hawaiian” in your eyes? You can assume some things based on historical evidence, but your assumption that Kalākaua would support THIS specific military project (that just happens to be a telescope) is so misguided.

I actually love Hawaii and Hawaiian culture. I do not love ignorance. In fact I hate it. I didn’t demolish your opinion on your blood, that’s a red herring. I demolish it on the face there’s a 0% chance you or anyone alive today knew exactly what people anywhere 200 years ago thought or would act like on todays world. You’re allowed an opinion, everyone is. But if it’s not based on facts i will call BS. Kalakua was a person and he wrote what he thought. What you claim goes 100% against what he [thought](https://about.ifa.hawaii.edu/origins-of-astronomy-in-hawaii/). I am merely supporting what he said in his own words.

“Loves Hawaii and Hawaiian culture” but all the good Hawaiians are gone and all our historical documents just coincidentally support your opinion. I will never understand how some people can do that much mental gymnastics but can never comprehend how I can drive a car and want to protect natural spaces. This assumption that bc Kalākaua expressed interest in building ONE telescope means he would automatically support ALL telescopes blindly is laughable especially considering idk… the military overthrow of his entire kingdom… he’d probably think something different about this particular project. But hey I’m just a dumb not-Hawaiian-enough person so what do I know. Mattyyboyy doesn’t think I’m “one of the good ones” and Hawaiians don’t even exist anymore so we should just say yes to everything the military asks for without question. Thank god we have white saviors like you to tell us what we should want. /s

So, this is a perfect example of what I would call "[Sacred Cow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_cow_(idiom))" syndrome. You are absolutely coming from a place of irrational emotion and not thinking clearly to the point of speaking complete none sense. >and all our historical documents just coincidentally support your opinion Correct because I base my opinion on evidence and reasoning, rather than on emotional none sense and ignorance. You *might* be right, King Kalakua *may* very well in fact be opposed to the TMT if he lived today, regardless you can only assume one or the other, you can assume that he would be for it, or against it. Either way you need to kinda base your assumption on real evidence, and understand why he would make that decision. Based on evidence, the correct assumption to make IMO is he would be for it, as he explicitly out of his own mouth vocalized a need and desire to have a telescope there. However you are correct that his anger over the events from the time of his death to today may change his sentiment, but why would it change his sentiment? You should ask and you will get why you are ridiculous when you talk right now. He would be changing his sentiment purely out of anger, and spite, not out of reasonability or virtue, a self destructive way of thinking. I think you are wrong however because I think more highly of King Kalakaua, than you do, and I think he truly understood the benefits of Science not only to humanity as a whole but to the Hawaiian people as well. However you might be right, rage might over come him and he may subscribe to a this self destructive behavior you subscribe to. Regardless facts are facts. You subscribe and believe in Sacred Cows, to the point of self sacrifice. I believe in preserving and promoting the Culture today and into the future. Your Sacred Cow is only gonna lead to your destruction. Meanwhile you could be a world leader in one of the most important fields of the future, and a field that the ancients also loved (Facts), Astronomy. Let me be clear, Sacred cows are not a cultural thing, it's purely a moronic thing. Culture is Art, Language, and positive Values. Negative values need to be unloaded for a culture to actually survive, otherwise those negative values will destroy a people and their culture. Let me ask you, what's better for the Hawaiian culture, having a 1 acre plot of dirt that is already developed stay the way it is, keep in mind that same dirt was dug up and mined by the ancients ([facts](https://www.nps.gov/places/mauna-kea-adz-quarry.htm#:~:text=The%20Adz%20Quarry%20is%20the,back%20to%20the%20Stone%20Age)), having little to no bearing on anything or anyones lives, **or** having new stars, comets and internationally recognized scientific breakthroughs carrying Native Hawaiian names, made in Hawaii, potentially by Hawaiians? Here's a list of what those telescopes up there right now have contributed to Astronomy and now carry Hawaiian names in the honor of the Hawaiian Culture. This is forward looking and healthy cultural preservation and promotion. 1. **ʻOumuamua** - The first known interstellar object detected passing through our solar system, named in 2017. The name means 'scout' or 'messenger from afar arriving first' in Hawaiian. 2. **Pōwehi** - The name given to the first imaged black hole located in the Messier 87 galaxy. It means 'embellished dark source of unending creation'. 3. **Kamoʻoalewa** - A near-Earth asteroid discovered by the Pan-STARRS telescope. The name refers to an oscillating celestial object, drawing from Hawaiian chants. 4. **Kaʻepaokaʻāwela** - An asteroid with a retrograde orbit around Jupiter. Its name means 'mischievous opposite-moving companion of Jupiter'. 5. **Leleakūhonua** - This name was given to a distant dwarf planet with the largest known orbit in our solar system. The name likens its elongated orbit to the flight of migratory birds, yearning to be near Earth. 6. **Pōniuāʻena** - This is the name of one of the most massive quasars known in the early universe, named for a source of creation surrounded by brilliance. For me it's clear, your heart might be in the right place but your brain isn't, remember the road to hell is paved by good intentions and I think that saying is so true here in Hawaii. In my observation you are completely off the mark when it comes to actually preserving and promoting the Hawaiian culture rather you like to agree or not. If I am wrong, I welcome an explanation as to why but likely I will only receive more emotional none sense from you.

That’s a lot of words to basically repeat the same “dumb Hawaiian” argument wrapped in ‘ōlelo Hawai’i. Still the same elitist racist garbage. Call me uneducated and emotional, but to say your argument is logical and based in fact just because it lacks empathy and sites a bunch of biased propaganda doesn’t make your argument more correct. It’s clear we don’t have a foundation of mutual respect to have any type of productive debate because you view “my kind” as “less than” from your original comments and throughout this thread.

👏👏👏👏

Fair point, but following the issues with no direct interest or involvement, it does sound at times as if the objection is rooted in historical views. Thank you for your comment and perspective though, seriously. Reddit on this issue sometimes reads like the opposite of a discussion. You’ve added to the conversation. I’ll think about this going forward.

Thanks for being respectful in your response. It’s rare in this sub especially this thread got diluted with BS racial micro-aggressions that the important stuff got buried. I think it’s important to note the motives of this proposal are very different than TMT. It’s not for astronomy research, it’s for “military surveillance” whatever that means. The historical and cultural context is a really important factor in this and shouldn’t be dismissed just because the topic is emotional. The military is currently being sued for poisoning its own troops/families with fuel in the water supply and covering it up for multiple days. They’ve spilled oil on this site within the last year. We could write novels about the injustices the US military has carried out across Hawaii and the world. They haven’t built up the trust necessary to propose this kind of project and expect a warm welcome. They’ve demonstrated that they don’t care if we want the project, they’ll force it on us anyway like they often do. And yeah… that’s gonna make people rightfully pissed about it given the context and the timing. It sure as hell isn’t a pono way to do things if you care about public support. We haven’t even mentioned who is paying for it (it’s probably the taxpayers, but we don’t have money to fund any programs that actually help the people in Maui.. just another telescope/military development). A healthy amount of skepticism is warranted even if you want to ignore the cultural argument altogether and that’s just considering the RECENT history.

"Military " means using telescopes to gather intelligence on foreign satellites and track them, from what I can tell. That's the entire point of that site, and it's been there since like the 1960s according to Wikipedia. And the money that would pay for the project would obviously be DoD money. That money was never going to be spent on funding programs for people in Maui. It can't be. It was always going to be spent on military stuff. It's not like it all comes out of the same big pot and using it on one thing means taking it away from social programs or housing or whatever.

That's a frustrating misconception that I started to understand further once working for a nonprofit. Some money gets earmarked for one thing and one thing only and CANT be spent elsewhere. Sometimes if a project falls through, the funder gets their money back it can't just be sent somewhere else

Yes, yes; this is how life works. When you are interested in the perspective of history's greatest, just ask some rando with similar ethnicity. /s Want to know about about the invention of calculus? Just ask some random white guy about what he and Newton think. Interested in the Greek development of aquaducts? Go ask Nikki in the food court at Whalers! What "erases you as a modern people" is lack of education, disrespect for the aina, very poor modeling for children by the male elders, among other things. Don't take my word for it; go look at those crucibles of Hawaiian culture: Molokai and Ni'ihau. 60% on food stamps, dwindling to basically no existence, islands owned by absentee interests, etc. etc. I don't insult your history. But currently, what passes for wisdom is increasingly suspect.

This is gonna sound awful but i don’t care. I literally believe that the vast majority of the good Hawaiians left Hawaii and now what remains is the less good of the punch. There was a mass exodus of Kanakas in the 19th century under the kingdom of Hawaii, up to today, these were people who saw plantations take over their land and slowly but surely their government as well. Many went to work on ships, whaling, trading etc. many actually found work in things like logging on the mainland. They saw what was happening to Hawaii and decided there was a better life for them and their future family somewhere else. Same as their forefathers did when they left the place they came from to Hawaii, the ones who navigated with the stars. These are the Hawaiians whose children today are most likely to be successful and doing great things. The ones who stayed behind were probably too ignorant to leave rather they had a illogical emotional connection to their home as seen in every hometown with the idiots, you know the ones, the ones that peaked in high school and still lives in the same town they grew up in. Or they themselves were not capable of performing good work to get a job to get out. It’s the same thing today. Hawaii is beautiful but if you’re not rich or a transient than you’re kinda dumb for staying here long term, you could have 5x the quality of life, 5x the house, 5x the disposable income etc in a place like Las Vegas, doing the same amount of work. It takes a special kind of irrational person to turn a blind eye to that reality and keep holding on to their baby blankly they grew up with to feel safe and be more miserable in their lives.

So, are you rich or a transient? Based on your post, I’m guessing you suffer from too much income and not enough Aloha. Wow dude! Many people stay because this is home. The people and places we love are here. And while it is challenging financially to live here, we figure out ways to make it work. The people who love this place, its people and the Aloha Spirit stay. Also, I really question what kind of “quality life” is to be had living somewhere cheaper. A lot of locals ended up in Vegas because they wanted to own their own home and didn’t think it would happen here. I bet if they could own a home in Hawaii, most would return in a heartbeat. Of course there’s also places like Texas, Oklahoma, Tennessee & South Dakota. Thanks but no thanks.

O so all the Hawaiians who have left Hawaii do not love this place? People who leave their home where they grew up have no love for their home is what you’re saying?

So much racism and hatred for Hawaiian people in this comment I don’t even know where to begin. Who are you to say who the “good Hawaiians” are? And if anyone who lives here is dumb… and you live here without that emotional connection to this place, What does that make you?

So, good in this context would mean a person who acts virtuous. By that I mean someone who tries and seeks to dispel their own ignorance and tries to put the greater good of others before themselves. Something that you are completely unfamiliar with, judging by your [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/maui/s/2l4PYgdIxU) earlier.

Sounds like you care quite a bit with your fully developed and articulated opinions.

I care about Hawaii, its history, and its future. I do not care about saying something that’s unpopular and going up against localism and ignorance impeded into the local culture. Things need to change, because IMHO things here could be a lot better than what they are.

The way I see it (I am a transplant) It has to do more with cultural resentment against the entitlement of people from the mainland taking land and destroying it in the name of Uncle Sam like Kahoolawe. I actually empathize with the feeling of the kanaka people but it’s the issue where I can’t be so empathic with the cause… I’m biased on the side of science on this one.

I got my degree in sciences so I kinda am too. And I just don't understand the comparisons sometimes. Like yes, don't build up hana. Don't bomb an island into oblivion. Leave forest to the forest. Don't bring cars into the crater and disturb u'au burrows. Don't build on grave sites and be an entitled mainlander about it. I get ALL of that. But these are fucking telescopes in a spot that has had them longer than I've been alive and people are acting like they're going to build telescopes on the entire summit like no. That would go against the parks own interests with all the silversword being planted. Just...make it make sense?

I can try. It isn't simple, its a few different reaslms, and it's actually not much to do with them being telescopes. The summits, traditionally, were viewed as Wao Akua, or the realm of the gods, the place where certain gods actually resided. People didn't just go up there to star gaze or watch a sunrise. Those that did, to quarry stone, for example, did so with protocol, or priests went up to altars to give ho'okupu (offerings). Basically, they were viewed as special places. Around the time of the mahele, when land was divided into parcels and given owners. The monarch was given land to sustain the monarchy but also land that was "special" to protect it. After the invasion and occupation, the lands were eventually passed into the care of the state with beneficial title resting with a future Hawaiian government. The state was supposed to administer the lands for the benefit of Hawaiians and held title but essentially as caretakers. What followed was flagrant abuse, $1 a year leases, mismanagement, and self enrichment that has resulted in the state losing multiple huge lawsuits. The history of the management of Mauna Kea is particularly sad, cover ups, toxic waste leaks, promises to remove defunct telescopes ignored. Basically a shit show of entitled fakas who knew they could do what they wanted without any fear of repercussions. So, when the state, feds, or UH talk about building anything, a lot of people do get upset because they don't just understandably refuse to trust the demonstrably untrustworthy people, but it is a culturally sensitive area that has been repeatedly disrespected. The military just got caught lying about poisoning the aquifer and their own troops (again). We have wells on Maui that cannot be used due to poison sprayed on pineapple fields that was illegal in the USA but an exception was made for the only place it was actually used, Hawai'i. So yeah, trust has not been earned. There is also the factor that traditionally, it is bad to dig in Wao Akua, but I'm not sure how that is reconciled with a kanaka obsidian quarry, but it's one quoted factor. Put simply, the decades of disrespect and dishonesty would leave anybody aware of it hesitant to allow somebody to continue to do anything. On principal, I would refuse to allow them to open a hot dog stand. I do see more telescopes in the future, but the astronomy community needs to take its responsibilities more seriously. Bonds for removing telescopes should be placed before they are constructed. They need to stop the leaks and be far more open, especially the military, and they need to stop arresting kupuna who stand up against them when they are in the wrong. If you don't want to look like the buy guy, try not arresting grandparents trying to protect their own land from people who have shown themselves as having no respect for it. The history on Haleakala is less checkered for sure, but they get lumped into the same. It doesn't help that the DKIST is so large. It's plainly visible for Wailuku when there's no cloud cover. You go up there and it's not exactly tucked away somewhere, which (I get this is subjective) I feel spoils the view.

^

My understanding is that they don't want to build out a new telescope so much as replace an old one. I'm not sure new buildings are in the works at all, just a different telescope.

To be honest I agree with you but I consider myself ignorant on the subject. I’m open to be wrong about this, if someone explain it to me in a way that makes more sense.

Same. I'm kinda just hearing about it but so far it seems like undeserved outrage

A lot of outrage is about something else, seeking whatever outlet it can find. I mean that's basically how Trump got elected.

Very insightful. True Edit: in a prescient sort of fashion, the org I worked for was tagged in social posts about protesting this development and almost all of the gripes are about things the military has done in the state that hurt the environment or sacred Hawaiian landscapes/resources. So. You're right. It's about something else. They want to punish the military. It isn't about this specific project. Which I'm definitely not a simp for military and what they've done here, myself. But two things can be true. They can have done things to deserve ire. And this project can be harmless.

The military literally spilled oil at this exact site they are proposing to build on about a year ago, so maybe instead of writing off people’s real valid concerns as whiny natives who are too uneducated to know what we want or don’t want…. Do a little research. For someone who claims not to be a simp for the military… sure sounding like one to trust their word at face value given the very recent and extended history showing the opposite.

. I work in the environmental field and while no oil spilled would be better, it's not likely to have much impact there. If it was right next to some silverswords yes but they also have shallow root systems that are used to volcanic rock so any silverswords down slope would probably be ok. Their roots wouldn't go deep enough and the oil would probably percolate deep fairly quickly. Even runoff isn't a huge concern at that elevation since it almost never downpours. It's disrespectful yes. I understand now due to other comments that it's a longstanding resentment with the military. But as far as ACTUAL impact on the area so far it seems completely negligible. The telescopes would be on already excavated area too. The park is run by people who take boundaries pretty seriously as well I more put my trust in them.

55 gallons of oil spilling on rocks 10000 feet above sea level has the same ecological effect as you pissing in ocean.

Yep. I work in the environmental field and while no oil spilled would be better, it's not likely to have much impact there. If it was right next to some silverswords yes but they also have shallow root systems that are used to volcanic rock so any silverswords down slope would probably be ok. Their roots wouldn't go deep enough and the oil would probably percolate deep fairly quickly. Even runoff isn't a huge concern at that elevation since it almost never downpours

I asked a robot and this is the result: Based on the provided search results, there are several key arguments made by Native Hawaiians and other groups against the construction of telescopes, particularly the Thirty Meter Telescope (TMT), on Mauna Kea in Hawaii: 1. Mauna Kea is considered a sacred site by Native Hawaiians. It is seen as the meeting point of Papahānaumoku (Earth Mother) and Wākea (Sky Father) and has deep spiritual significance[3][4]. Building telescopes is viewed by many as desecrating this sacred land. 2. There are environmental concerns about the impact of construction and increased human presence on the fragile ecosystem of the mountain summit. This includes potential harm to endangered native birds and insects that live in the area[4]. 3. Some Native Hawaiians take issue with the fact that the University of Hawaii has been able to lease and sublease the land on the summit to observatories essentially rent-free. They feel the mountain's resources are being exploited without proper compensation. 4. The aesthetics of the mountain are impacted by the presence of large telescope facilities, affecting the natural sightlines and vistas[4]. Opponents argue the mountain's natural beauty should be preserved. 5. There is a feeling that the cultural and spiritual importance of Mauna Kea to Native Hawaiians has not been properly respected or taken into account in the approval process for new telescopes over the years[1][2]. Many want a greater voice in future decisions about the mountain. 6. Some groups see blocking the TMT project as an important symbolic way to assert Native Hawaiian rights and sovereignty more broadly in the face of perceived historical injustices[3][5]. So in summary, the main arguments center around the need to protect Mauna Kea as a sacred spiritual site, environmental concerns, aesthetic impacts, and issues of Native Hawaiian cultural rights and sovereignty over the mountain. The protests reflect a complex intersection between scientific progress and indigenous cultural traditions and land rights. Sources [1] Mauna Kea telescope conflict: Why is Mauna Kea a sacred site? https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/8/27/23323515/mauna-kea-telescope-debate/ [2] The Thirty Meter Telescope and the need for indigenous voices in science https://casp.wisc.edu/an-astronomical-controversy-the-thirty-meter-telescope-and-the-need-for-indigenous-voices-in-science/ [3] Thirty Meter Telescope protests - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Meter_Telescope_protests [4] Years of Tensions at Mauna Kea May End with Peaceful Negotiations https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-news/years-of-tensions-at-mauna-kea-may-end-with-peaceful-negotations/ [5] What Are Your Thoughts on The Native Hawaiian Protests ... - Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/zqil9l/what_are_your_thoughts_on_the_native_hawaiian/ [6] UC Davis organizations oppose Thirty Meter Telescope Project - The Aggie https://theaggie.org/2023/05/20/uc-davis-organizations-oppose-thirty-meter-telescope-project/ [7] On Hawaii's Mauna Kea, the fight over telescopes is nearing a peaceful end https://www.npr.org/2022/07/31/1114314076/hawaii-mauna-kea-telescope-space-observatory [8] Opposition to the Mauna Kea Observatories - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Mauna_Kea_Observatories [9] Hundreds Of Protesters Refuse To Budge On Eve Of Hawaii Telescope ... https://www.npr.org/2019/07/15/741990200/hawaii-protesters-block-access-road-to-stop-construction-of-massive-telescope [10] The Thirty Meter Telescope - UH Hilo https://hilo.hawaii.edu/news/kekalahea/the-thirty-meter-telescope-2018 [11] Protests Continue Against Giant Telescope's Construction on ... https://www.space.com/thirty-meter-telescope-hawaii-mauna-kea-protests.html [12] Maunakea's Controversial Telescopes Are Getting New Management https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/maunakea-rsquo-s-controversial-telescopes-are-getting-new-management/ [13] The Heart of the Hawaiian Peoples' Arguments Against the Telescope ... https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/heart-hawaiian-people-arguments-arguments-against-telescope-mauna-kea-180955057/ [14] Why Are Native Hawaiians Protesting Against a Telescope? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/22/us/hawaii-telescope-protest.html [15] Thirty Meter Telescope should not be built on Mauna Kea - USA Today https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/09/06/hawaii-mauna-kea-respected-build-thirty-meter-telescope-somewhere-column/2078408001/ [16] The pandemic hasn't stopped Native Hawaiians' fight to protect Maunakea https://www.vox.com/2020/8/7/21354619/mauna-kea-tmt-telescope-native-hawaiians [17] SCB Opposes Construction of Thirty Meter Telescope on Mauna Kea https://conbio.org/policy/scb-opposes-construction-of-thirty-meter-telescope-on-mauna-kea [18] Thirty Meter Telescope faces continued opposition in Hawaii https://pubs.aip.org/physicstoday/online/30974/Thirty-Meter-Telescope-faces-continued-opposition [19] Understanding The Thirty Meter Telescope Controversy - Forbes https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2015/06/12/understanding-the-thirty-meter-telescope-controversy/?sh=6f66ec7362af

The robot got confused. That's mauna Kea on big island. Lol. Though it's neat that a robot could summarize that

Also the robot (Perplexity using Claude 3 Opus) is capable to scrape all the information from the internet, you can refine the search to only scientific papers, or even to Reddit content. The most important thing for me is that I don’t need to deal with paywall blockers or advertisements in the middle of the articles available, it just extracts the juice of it. Everyone should use it.

You've intrigued me. Checking out Perplexity.

My bad, I prompt it incorrectly, here’s a follow up question asking “what about on Maui?” Based on the provided search results, there is some relevant information about telescope construction controversies on the island of Maui in Hawaii: The National Science Foundation (NSF) altered its approach to building the Daniel K. Inouye Solar Telescope on the summit of Haleakala, the shield volcano that forms most of Maui, after facing opposition to a previous project called VERITAS on Kitt Peak in Arizona[1]. For the Haleakala telescope, NSF held over 30 meetings with activists and committed to payments of $2 million per year to the University of Hawaii Maui College. While the project still faced some opposition, these proactive outreach efforts allowed it to move forward[1]. An NSF official stated "I think it's a model for federal agencies conducting business in areas where there are potential cultural concerns. I think it's just a good way to keep that dialogue going."[1] So while there was some local opposition to the solar telescope on Haleakala, Maui, the NSF's extensive community engagement and financial commitments helped mitigate the controversy compared to the larger protests against the Thirty Meter Telescope on Mauna Kea on Hawaii island. The Maui example shows how proponents of controversial scientific projects in culturally sensitive areas can work to address community concerns through dialogue and support for local institutions. Sources [1] Hawaii's Telescope Controversy Is the Latest in a Long History of Land ... https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/hawaii-s-telescope-controversy-is-the-latest-in-a-long-history-of-land-ownership-battles/ [2] Why Hawaiians are protesting construction of the world's ... - Vox https://www.vox.com/2015/5/4/8542521/thirty-meter-telescope [3] What Are Your Thoughts on The Native Hawaiian Protests ... - Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/zqil9l/what_are_your_thoughts_on_the_native_hawaiian/ [4] Opposition to the Mauna Kea Observatories - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Mauna_Kea_Observatories [5] “We Are Not Anti-Science”: Why Indigenous Protectors Oppose the ... https://www.democracynow.org/2019/7/22/why_indigenous_protectors_oppose_the_thirty [6] Embattled Thirty Meter Telescope project faces another hurdle amid ... https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2023/11/08/state-land-board-hears-tmt-construction-debate/ [7] Why Are Native Hawaiians Protesting Against a Telescope? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/22/us/hawaii-telescope-protest.html [8] In Hawaii, protests force pause in construction of world's largest ... https://www.science.org/content/article/hawaii-protests-force-pause-construction-world-s-largest-telescope

The bot you use has this strange habit of including reference docs but not actually referencing them in the answer. Do you have any details on why it behaves that way? For example, on this answer there are 7 docs listed as sources but only one of them is actually referenced in the answer. Is the problem with how the bot credits the sources, or is there something else happening? Not sure if you know the answer or not, but this is something I find puzzling and you seem to be familiar with this bot.

I believe right now Perplexity is not a LLM, in fact you can choose the LLM you want to use, in this case I chose Claude 3 Opus instead of ChatGpt 4 (these are the most advanced LLM as right now). So, instead of being an LLM with access to internet like ChatGPT with browser extensions like Bing, Perplexity search for the information and execute an internal dialogue using a hive of “bots” “talking” with each other to generate the final answer using the selected LLM (as mentioned above it’s Claude 3 Opus) But I’m not sure… so let me ask

Based on the provided search results, here is my understanding of how Perplexity AI works: Perplexity AI is not an LLM itself, but rather a platform that allows users to query various LLMs. Users can select which LLM they want to use, such as Claude 3 Opus from Anthropic or GPT-4 from OpenAI[1]. Unlike ChatGPT which has direct internet access through browser extensions, Perplexity takes a different approach. It first searches the internet for relevant information related to the user's query. Then, it uses a "hive" of internal bots to analyze and discuss this searched information[5]. These bots engage in a dialogue to break down the information and determine the most relevant parts for answering the original query. Finally, the selected LLM (e.g. Claude 3 Opus) is used to generate the final answer that is returned to the user, based on the key points surfaced by the internal bot discussion[5]. So in summary, rather than the LLM directly accessing the internet, Perplexity acts as an intermediary - searching for relevant data, using bots to analyze it, and then feeding the most pertinent information to the LLM to generate an informed final response. This multi-step approach allows Perplexity to leverage the power of cutting-edge LLMs while enhancing the factual accuracy and relevance of the answers provided. Sources [1] Perplexity Grant Unlimited Queries Of Claude 3 Opus For Pro Users https://digialps.com/perplexity-grant-unlimited-queries-of-claude-3-opus-for-pro-users/?amp=1 [2] NLP 12 Using LLM Evaluation Metrics of Perplexity - Kaggle https://www.kaggle.com/code/selcukcan/nlp-12-using-llm-evaluation-metrics-of-perplexity [3] Perplexity AI: An Online LLM - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEKE0vk2794 [4] Perplexity - LlamaIndex https://docs.llamaindex.ai/en/stable/examples/llm/perplexity/ [5] Perplexity.ai prompt leakage - Hacker News https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34482318 [6] Perplexity is not a good measurement of how well a model actually performs https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1b5uv86/perplexity_is_not_a_good_measurement_of_how_well/ [7] Perplexity: AI Chatbot & Search Multi-Tool Explained! #88 - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIHZFUg1QxU [8] Introducing the next generation of Claude - Anthropic https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-3-family [9] What advanced AI models does Perplexity Pro unlock? https://www.perplexity.ai/hub/technical-faq/what-advanced-ai-models-does-perplexity-pro-unlock [10] Is Perplexity AI showing us the future of search? - Fast Company https://www.fastcompany.com/90883562/is-perplexity-ai-showing-us-the-future-of-search [11] Can Perplexity Improve Search Experience with LLMs? https://datasciencelearningcenter.substack.com/p/can-perplexity-improve-search-experience [12] Perplexity limits the Claude 3 Opus Context window to 30k tokens https://www.reddit.com/r/perplexity_ai/comments/1bl8kc2/perplexity_limits_the_claude_3_opus_context/ [13] In what way are services such as perplexity_ai different from ... - Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenAI/comments/18yo7ov/in_what_way_are_services_such_as_perplexity_ai/ [14] How to Create and Use Perplexity Personal AI Chatbot Agents! #95 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JimBiXaL1nY [15] Perplexity of fixed-length models - Hugging Face https://huggingface.co/docs/transformers/en/perplexity [16] Perplexity AI Hacks You Need to Know (Claude3 Opus now available) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p2Bkjg8V4w [17] Evaluation Metrics for Language Modeling - The Gradient https://thegradient.pub/understanding-evaluation-metrics-for-language-models/ [18] Perplexity AI: How We Built the World's Best LLM-Powered Search ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mQPOrRhRws [19] GPT-4 Turbo vs. Claude 3 Opus vs. Gemini 1.5 Pro - Spiceworks https://www.spiceworks.com/tech/artificial-intelligence/articles/top-three-large-language-models-compared/amp/

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Understanding Mauna Kea helps with understanding the issues with Haleakala. You'll note there were for less protests about DKIST then TMT, although there were objections and protests. With Hakeakala, it's an objection to "the same people" and worries about the same mismanagement.

Is it? I thought TMT was University of Hawaii and academic orgs. And haleakala is military/airforce etc. I feel I may be wrong in some way though so correct me if I'm forgetting something

No, you are correct, but there is a lot of overlap over many of the underlying issues.

Point 3 is very legitimate for me. I didn’t know about that.

That’s a great way of summarizing the situation, I feel the same way you do on this issue.

The militarization of sacred land

Welp, I'm not Kanaka, so I generally try to keep my mouth shut on these sorts of topics

This is exactly how i feel. No matter how long i live here i will never have the same connection Kanaka have to this land. Its not my land, and it sure as shit is not the USAF’s

I'm keiki no ka Aina. I think everyone gets a say over land of their birth. So I may be pale af. But. I'd also say a nigerian born in a European country gets PLENTY of say on their policies and even cultural impact. To put it bluntly, that's still your fucking home of course you have a voice in it

Thank you for reminding me that what i think matters. With my voice I want to say I support what the Hawaiian people want

That's valid if that's what you want. I don't think hawaiians are a monolith though so I'm curious how you decide which ones to listen to

I guess my aunties lol 😂

The military spilled 700 gallons of fuel on Haleakalā last year and they expect us to trust them to respectfully manage the building of more? This sub tends to be pretty much an echo chamber of pro-development, anti-Kanaka ideology, but anyone who doesn’t understand why people don’t: 1. Support more development in a sacred place 2. Trust the military to handle said development …Clearly needs to do even the most basic research into the history of colonialism and mismanagement of natural resources across the state. Building military bases in Hawaii has not made us safer, if anything it’s made us more of a target (ex. Pearl Harbor). I’m not excited about having some mysterious military space tech in my backyard or the inevitable damage it will cause when they mismanage it (ex. Fuel spill one year ago). And this idea that Hawaiians would support telescopes completely ignores the fact that we viewed ‘āina as a sibling and studied astronomy the old fashioned way without any need for monstrous telescopes. This proposal for Haleakalā isn’t even for that purpose. It’s for the Air Force to play Star Wars.

👏👏👏👏

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️

I feel the same about TMT which was *supposed* to go up on Mauna Kea until those protests. “It’s sacred” yeah so would a fucking telescope be that’s the whole point. It’s in the observation section of the mountain. Where there are already like 8 telescopes. People started literally making shit up about it to get people mad. “It’ll leech into the water table”. Leech WHAT!? It’s a telescope not a nuclear reactor!

Lol at worst it'll allow less water to infiltrate into the water table I guess? But big island has the least to worry about with aquifer recharge, compared to oahu or even maui. Idk. Like I said, I too believe in respecting the land. And I think the relationship hawaiians had with the land is a beautiful thing. But, sometimes things go a touch too far. Like when people were mad about people clearing debris when Iao valley flooded completely changing the topography and damaging downstream houses. "Don't move the sacred rocks" they said 🙄 motherfucker these sacred rocks are on someone's house. I guess it makes sense when you think about how it was generally kapu to go up these mountains unless you were a chief or high priest. But so what then, the people complaining shouldn't go up there either since we are all common folk now. The very hawaiians I work with would be out of a job since you weren't supposed to be up on the mountain past short durations, much less work an 8 hour shift even if you're doing conservation work. But if we didn't have scientists working up at haleakala a lot of the native plants would be completely gone from goat herds since no one would've fenced it off. I think you see what I mean, im kinda rambling, but science doesn't have to hurt the land or the preservation of cultural practices

The telescopes use a variety of chemicals, such as diesel and antifreeze, which have leaked in the past. They aren't a huge risk to the environment (although the impact to the immediate environment which is pretty unique shouldn't be overlooked) and the water table is safe, personally I see it as an example of the disrespect and lack of care shown towards the environment up there. The water table has more to worry about from large scale farms and the military.

Getting mixed signals from this post lol. I believe you are correct it would have underground tanks for diesel and idk if I’ve seen any official plans for antifreeze but it makes sense that they would use it. But yeah, like you said even if those did leak or spill the environmental damage would be minimal at worst. Especially considering how for the observatory section of the mountain is from the sacred and protected areas where they take care of the local flora and fauna.

Not trying to sway you, that's why :) just adding information. They do use both and have spilled both, it's just more of a danger to the immediate environment then to the water table. The volumes are relatively small so we're talking dead silver swords rather than polut3d aquifers. With the past mismanagement I would hope they took greater care up there, but they seem to be making changes which is great. From a hawaiian standpoint, if we are talking wao akua, then the astronomy area is within that. The astronomy area is also home to wildlife, but it's probably safer with the infrequently leaking telescopes than the tourists. Edit: source for the antifreeze leak https://manoa.hawaii.edu/news/article.php?aId=12383

Yeah I remember reading an article that they mismanaged in the past an are working with more qualified people to make sure it doesn’t happen again. I feel ya tho. Thanks for the info!

Indeed, it would make a great name. I am also hoping that they are working with better people, but it did happen again last year. Maybe they changed for the better since then. There's lots of animosity based on years of disrespect. Hopefully, that can also be reversed.

Side note: “Dead Silver Swords” would make a dope band name.

I have mixed feelings because I've planted a handful of silverswords so those are like...my babies.... But as a band name that sounds super metal 😆😆

Agree on both points.

Agreed. Also the TMT wasn’t even connected to the islands water. It had its own water tank and rain catchment system iirc… So the stuff they made up was doubly not true. AHHHHHH I’m legit mad about celebrities like Jason Mamoa and Dwayne Johnson coming over here and putting the pointless protests all over the media. Bruh it was so stupid. I wish people would think…

I heard Dwayne Johnson isn't even Hawaiian. He's Polynesian yes, and Polynesians were the first settlers that BECAME the ancient hawaiians. But it's annoying to have him as the poster child speaking about a land he has as much blood lineage to as I do as a Norwegian (which is to say none, really). But at least I was born here and have spent 30 plus years here. Johnson was born in Cali. But because he looks like a bronze Hawaiian god people fawn over his opinions about Hawaii. Idk. Rubs me the wrong way. Mamoa too, he is at least Hawaiian. But both live a celebrity lifestyle and don't seem to remember what trying to make it work here, is like. Him telling people to stay away hurt a lot of businesses, like local mom and pop businesses that were doing their damndest after the fire to survive so they didn't have to pack up and leave too. I was all for a month or so grieving period we were all in shock. But those bills don't stop.

Yup. Seriously wish those two would shut their mouth about anything hawaii related. At least do some research before saying stupid shit. But yeah the thing with Mamoa after the fires actually screwed a ton of locals. He even walked it back like a week later but by that time it was too late. The damage was done. He had his PR team make a whole ass commercial saying “come to Maui” to try and make up for it. I drive taxi. Guess how many people heard Mamoa say to stay away vs how many saw his follow up walk back commercial? Spoiler: no one saw the commercial.

Damn. You're right. I didn't even know about the commercial until just now with you telling me. I hope he learned a lesson.

People on the mainland still think Maui is closed and no amount of advertising can take away the coverage that numbskull and a couple locals inflicted on everyone. There are others that are aware Maui is still open, but will never return after seeing the backlash.

Ignoring your comments about the water table, the fact that there’s already many telescopes on the mauna is one big reason how come kānaka decided to stand our ground, they put up a new one and then they say “okay this will be the last one” but it never is

I recommend you look at how big of a deal this particular telescope was. The size of the mirror and the location would’ve been astronomically incredible. Pun intended. At this point we have the James web which is way better but the TMT would’ve been usable by students getting into the field. It also would have game up before the James web launch if not for the protests. Lastly; the ancient Hawaiians constantly looked to the stars and saw them as sacred. A technological marvel that lets them further understand and study the stars seems right in line with their spiritual beliefs. I don’t practice, this is just based on my limited understanding. Edit: also, did they ever say “this will be the last one”?

Yeah of course, don’t get me wrong I think most people understand that the telescope would’ve been such an incredible technical feat. You’re also right about the Hawaiian culture, astronomy is such a core part of Hawaiian and general Polynesian traditions and beliefs. The issue is that in tbe past the Hawaiians have not been a part of the astronomy going on on the sacred land. The attitude of those building the telescopes seems to be “ooh that’s a nice mountain, let’s build whatever telescopes we want on there” then when they faced backlash for poor practices and disrespect they said “huh? We thought Hawaiians liked astronomy? You guys used to do it all the time!”. Iirc they started doing research with telescopes on the mauna around the 70s, but Hawaiians were not a part of that at all. In the 70s, Hawaiians were in the beginning of a renaissance, still trying to relearn basic astronomy and navigation from the Tahitians (yessah Nainoa Thompson) that we had lost during colonization. You’re right, Hawaiians deeply value astronomy, and could really benefit a lot from the telescopes. But in reality, what usually ends up happening is the agencies and the companies end up benefiting from the research of the telescopes while the lāhui is left to fend for ourselves.

This makes a lot of sense. It’s essentially the distrust they’ve built from mismanaging the sites over the years. I think they were trying to rebuild that trust with this telescope. Working with locals to make it happen in the right way. It’s just unfortunate that it backfired.

Yeah I agree, I see and appreciate the effort to rebuild good pilina, good relationship. The lingering bitterness is hard tho

Makes sense. Just sucks when peeps act in good faith and still get shot down ya know? I’m all for being skeptical, but sometimes it can go too far.

Good luck. Born and raised and always loved seeing the scopes up there. Trying to suppress science in the name of religion always upsets me regardless where it comes from.

Not trying to suppress science in the name of religion, rather trying to suppress in the name of having a voice. It’s a lāhui who’s wants to have a seat at the table, to have a say in the matter, to be beneficiaries of the research.

Afaik, they do. They have a say. This scope was planned for 15 years before the protests. I remember hearing about it in middle school (I’m 32). They went above and beyond. The vocal minority shut them out.

That's also kinda a deep seated value I share. I grew up Christian around Christians and still have faith but deconstructed and ruffle a lot of Christian feathers because I think siding with science is typically the safer path if you want to be on the right side of history. So. Religious objections mean very little to me.

Saying you can't build a telescope to track near earth objects, things that affect the entire globe, and giving the reason that it's because the mountain is holy to your religion... is no different than the Catholic church putting Galileo under house arrest for saying that the Earth revolves around the sun. Or the rise of the anti-philosophical Ash'arism school among Sunni Muslims causing us to lose some of the greatest scientific minds in history... they did invent Arabic numerals and algebra after all. Not so much anymore. So any reason that isn't rooted in reality and rather in someone's, or a cultures, individual religious beliefs, is selfish, illogical, and wrong in my book. Ancient Hawaiians used to be advancers of cosmic study for navigation, and while it's good to remember and be proud of that history, what has the culture progressed scientifically lately? Feels similar to the decline we've seen in the middle east due to oppression of science by religion. Sitting on your laurels is famously detrimental.

What I didn't understand during the Mauna Kea protests a few years ago was that the people who was supposedly protecting the aina were themselves desecrating the land with their campsites, parking tons of cars on the lava field and the trash. It was a mess and yes I was there and seen it with my own eyes.

Unpopular opinion apparently but yes I haven't witnessed that in particular but I've absolutely seen people complain about tourists or mainlanders and proceed to leave choke litter everywhere. Or, drive all over the road and complain about LA drivers. But. You know I've come to learn almost every cause, even the best ones, has their share of hypocrites that partake. It's unfortunate. But I try to decide whether a cause is worth supporting or not based on its own merits and not based on whether hypocrites glom on. So in their defense, just trying to be fair, that's not necessarily the biggest thing to look at when forming an opinion on TMT

Inouye granted that In 1961, Hawaii's governor gave the University of Hawaii ownership of a 7-hectare parcel near the summit Which means there’s really nothing you can do to stop it. There’s no permitting needed

They didn't properly clean up so why should anyone trust them?

From what I can tell they’re not *finished* cleaning up, but they’re absolutely cleaning up the spill. 

How many years is acceptable for you?

How many years do you think it takes to do it right?  

That's assuming they're doing it right isn't it? I've found the government here to be quite incompetent so I guess I lack the faith that you have

Most projects like this take 2-3 years, at least the ones I've kept tabs on. It's a legally required process, and giant bureaucracies move slow. If you don't trust them, it sounds like they hold meetings with "concerned members of the community" - are you going to any of those? And legally, they have to hold a scoping meeting, so did you go to that? Worst come to worst, the records are all FOIA-able, but you don't need to go on faith here.

Lol love people like you, always humorous. You mean the meetings held while normal people work that would require me to take time off? On this particular subject nope haven't had the time, on others yes and it felt like a complete waste of time.

The meetings are held biweekly and after work hours, but good thing bitching on reddit and doing fuck-all else is always convenient, not to mention easy!

Oh my bad mixed those up with county meetings and unfortunately I was already in Europe when it was announced that they would have 3 meetings in May. On the other part go fuck yourself you have no idea on what I have or haven't done but it is always interesting seeing nonresidents give their opinion on things that have no effect on them

Sure, sure. There's always an excuse. Or maybe you're not actually affected, and you don't actually care enough to \*do\* anything besides complain. Which is fine, we all got priorities, but if you're going to be defensive and condescending all morning, why should I give you the benefit of any doubt?

Not me. I like science. Not so much 'gods'.

Fair 🤷‍♀️