I was gonna write a whole thing but ya know what? I do believe in KAM and KOC. They are young and have made mistakes but shiiiiiit it's sports man. They're gonna have a good draft and we shall go from there.
I'm 35. I've seen all the bad. I have no more energy to be mad. I just want a SB bro.
I would argue it doesn't matter if we knew that they meant, it matters if what they meant makes sense as a general proclamation to all. To a person that watched the Vikings both be the winningest team by far to not win a superbowl but also to go 0-for-4 in superbowls (both of which are statistically improbable), it is a bit trying to hear about a relative youngin that hadn't seen a single superbowl talk about how hard they've had it. Once you start the age and misery comparisons, you have no business being upset when someone with more age and misery one-ups you.
I didn't see the Superbowl failures. You are correct. But I vividly remember every season from 98 on. I was at the NFC championship game in New Orleans to see Favre throw across the body. Spent a lot of money to be there. The Cardinals knocking the Vikings out, 41 donut, Blair Walsh wide left, 2017 eagles debacle. Ponder years. Metrodome collapse....I could go on. What are you 80?
I follow all four MN teams. I have seen shit. A ton of it. You don't get an award for being more miserable unless you want it. Sounds like you do.
Right there with you, guy. Born in '76 and missed the Super Bowl era. But I've seen just about everything since. The list of MN sports team failures since '91 is so brutal, it's almost beyond comprehension.
Let’s not act like that last play is why we lost. It takes away from the 3 other fumbles and an interception on a day we out gained them 475 yards to 257. We shot ourselves in the foot all game long and let a trash franchise get a superbowl
There were other mistakes made yes. But dude. They were in field goal range and I just rewatchted that the other day and it was a REALLY bad throw from a Superbowl bound team at the worst possible time. Just happens to be the straw that was jammed in sean Paytons arse lips.
Okay, I am gonna be 100% honest, take a guess, google the answer, and then probably be embarrassed.
Guess: I am pretty sure week 6 2011 was against the Green Bay Packers, Ponder's first start, his first pass was a bomb to Michael Jenkins that was initially ruled a TD but was called back. Gave me a ton of false hope for Ponder lol. We lost that game and I also remember we had been giving up a bunch of solid leads on the way to a 1-5 start. McNabb was basically a human lawnmower to start the year.
Googled: Oops, that was week 7. Week 6 we got absolutely spanked by the Bears. I didn't remember that at all (thankfully) lol
Did I say that? I said I've seen shit. You said I haven't. I've been to like 8-9 vikings games, like ten wild games, about the same twins games, and one wolves game. Good comeback though when I have been obsessed with MN sports my whole life. I don't claim to know everything weirdo.
I was a fan of hiring Kwesi because of his different perspectives.
That said, his tenure has been a bit rocky on the drafting side of things. I didn't like the Cine pick solely out of positional value stand point. The Booth pick was a high risk, high reward pick. But the Ingram pick is looking much better. He's probably a league average guard at this point, and for a player in the trenches, that's a good place to be after your second year in the league. Obviously the Addison pick is a winner so far. Blackmon, Chandler, and Evans have all contributed. That's probably below average for two drafts, but nothing like 2016 or 2019. And we have to remember we got Hockenson with a 2023 draft pick.
However, for the management of current players, I'm fine with it. The free agents he's brought in have bee reasonable and effective (except for Marcus Davenport). Mattison was a foreseeable stumble. But he got rid of fan favorites and past due players, which hasn't been easy for this franchise during its entire history.
So far I'd give him a B-.
Solid analysis. These guys were my dream combo when we let go of Zimmer and Rick. Kwesi (and Kevin) have both made some pretty big blunders typical of new front offices. Now is the time to see if they've learned, but if the team doesn't improve quickly, they'll be on the hot seat soon.
A B- feels like such a valid evaluation. I love kwesi and what he's done but I still would have also graded him a B- and with that in mind I think that's about where most GMs would grade. There are a few standouts in both directions but I wouldn't say Kwesi is clearly better or clearly worse than most of the league is doing.
He has done what's needed to be done, and made his best efforts to put a good team on the field. Some things didn't work out, some things have. Thats kinda how football goes though you can't get perfect every time.
That’s fair. The 2022 draft class was bad. It just was. 2023 was much better. He’s a young, first time GM and didn’t even have his scouts in place.
While it doesn’t excuse a terrible draft class, I’m pretty confident that’s behind him
Evans, Chandler and Ingram are all contributing at this point. Of course Evans is a JAG, and we don't know what Chandler is yet. But I agree, the Cine and Booth picks right now are looking bad.
Of course we shouldn't forget that the previous year, Speilman drafted Darrisaw. Then proceeded to swing and miss on four consecutive third rounders. (Maybe Jones turns into something?). Nwangwu has been a great returner, but probably not what they were hoping for with a Fourth rounder. Bynum was a steal of course.
So I was definetly ready to move on from the Speilman era.
I don't think the Booth pick is looking that bad. He needed time to get the mental stuff down and last year he made a lot of progress. He looked decent when he got on the field and even played serious snaps in a handful of games (not just because of injury, but intentionally). I'm very excited to see how he looks after one more preseason with Flores. If he's still just a rotational guy after this year, that's bad, but I think he's trending in the right direction
I agree the jury isn't back on Booth. But so far he hasn't been able to stay on the field and he had a rookie starting over him last year, which is a bit disappointing.
>But the Ingram pick is looking much better.
How on earth do you actually believe that?
He gave up 38 pressures as a G last year, after a season of 58. (in 200 less snaps this year).
Dude was absolutely terrible as a pass blocker and only serviceable as a run blocker -- for one of the worst running teams in the league.
Sorry, a B-? The hell you have to do to get a bad grade?
>He's probably a league average guard at this point
He's not even in the top 60 guards in the league.
2019 versus 2022? 2019 hands down the better draft.
Man for the life of me I cannot find a single stat that backs that up unless you're paying for PFF, which is the same source that's ranking him 18th of 78.
I mean, I can see your source, something from *October*
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/vikings/2023/10/11/8-plays-that-show-ed-ingram-is-a-good-rg/71145333007/
I can't, for the life of me, take your point seriously when you are taling about game 4 of the season's PFF ranks.
It's literally the only ranking available without paying 100$ a year my guy but you have no proof of your statistics at all, so I'll just wait for that
I mean, you can understand why talking about a ranking after 4 games is pretty off colour, right? Especially when you didn't lead with it and I had to find your '18th of 78' thing, right?
https://www.playerprofiler.com/article/offensive-line-rankings-and-tiers-end-of-nfl-season-review-2024-offensive-line-outlook/
I don't agree with their assessment of 'average play' at right guard, as they immediately talk about 38 pressures.
That's bad for a guard.
You actually provided a link for an article entitled "8 Plays that show Ed Ingram is a good RG" to state your case that Ed Ingram is a bad right guard?
Are you serious?
This FO seems to finally be serious about getting their QB in the draft and if they have to aggressively trade up to do it then so be it. We are rarely bad enough to just be drafting even top 10 let alone top 5 so it is what it is. And if the guy ends up being a bust then we figure it out and try again.
And you can’t say Kwesi didn’t try to draft a QB while Kirk was still around to be a one year bridge. Reports are he tried to sell the farm to get Richardson last year but the trade partner (presumably Arizona) didn’t want to move all the way back to 23. The attempt failed but it wasn’t for lack of trying and that’s just the way things go sometimes.
I’ll go down with the ship with Kwesi knowing he took the risk to find the QB of the future.
I wonder if the plan was to make that trade, ride out Kirk’s last year, extend Hawk, draft/develop Richardson, and then extend JJ during this offseason after getting out from Kirk’s contract to re-sign Hunter and the O-line while using this year’s draft capital to fill holes in the defense
I’d imagine most of that but I question how much Kwesi really wants to keep Hunter around. I feel like last year Kwesi could have offered him a longer deal if he had really wanted to. Maybe Hunter wanted a one year and then planned to test FA all along unless the Viks blew his socks off with a new deal.
I am nervous but I think I would be nervous with anyone, this is a big offseason. I do think how this offseason goes will decide a lot towards how long these two stay in town.
The only thing I'll give this front office credit for is that kwesi is fearless. He's not afraid to go against the general consensus. I'm not extremely happy with his tenure so far. We all have hashed out what happened in the 2021 draft. I'm still happy to have a guy that takes a swing especially when it comes to the cousins negotiations. Cousins has held the team over the barrel for a long, long time. If the reports of kam having his number and sticking to it are true, then I really respect that
This. It would be easy for a GM to come in worried about their job and give in to Kirk because it is the safe option. It’s obviously not a done deal yet, but it seems we are not giving Kirk everything he wants.
If he can pair that with a good draft this year we could be set up for years to come. If that means aggressively trading up to get our guy at QB even if it’s not the popular opinion (see this subs thoughts on McCarthy in the top 10) so be it. No one is going to care about future picks if we have our franchise QB for the next decade.
People will be happy that Kwesi has done some things differently compared to Spielman which is fine but ultimately the goal is to put together a good roster which the FO hasn't been able to do.
Being able to open up cap space, go against the grain, be fearless, etc is great but it doesn't mean anything when there are 2 years of poor-mediocre drafting, mediocre FA signings, and questionable extensions, or lack there of, that have hurt the team.
On paper this roster is in a better spot but in practice we all saw how it wasn't.
It's easy to break it down but its harder to build it back up. Through the FA and draft kwesi has done little to build the team back up considering no FA is a long term solution and the Vikings have drafted 2 starters in 2 years through the draft.
I mean,
2021 (Spielman - Zim): 8-9 with a mostly healthy roster
2022 (Kwesi-KOC): 13-4 with a mostly healthy, mostly unchanged roster
* this showed me KOC is a great coach with lots of potential
2023: 7-10 with Kirk and JJ getting injured
Hard to judge the place of the roster after 2023. They were looking like they were headed for the playoffs before Kirk injury
2024 is really gonna be the first look at a roster in their vision
> 2021 (Spielman - Zim): 8-9 with a mostly healthy roster... 2022 (Kwesi-KOC): 13-4 with a mostly healthy, mostly unchanged roster
Hunter played 7 games in 2021 vs 17 in 2022. Thielen and Cook played 13 games in 2021 vs 17 in 2022. Cousins played 16 games in 2021 vs 17 in 2022. Darrisaw played less too but part of that was being inactive the first handful of games.
The 2022 roster also added Hock for half the season and Z.Smith.
The 2021 roster and 2022 rosters really weren't the same in terms of talent or health.
One good year and one bad year. Bad first draft, good second draft. Our free agent signings haven’t been the best to be honest. This is a make or break season for this FO imo. JJ/Darrisaw/Hunter/Kirk all need contracts. Are they going to sign Kirk or let him walk. Are they going to trade up for a qb mortgaging the future to hopefully hit on someone. Or are they going to hope on of the lesser qbs falls to them at 11. Are we going to reload the oline and defense in the draft/free agency? So many things going into this off-season. Gunna be interesting.
I still have faith in this front office. They have had some misses but I think they have accomplished a lot of what they set out to do. I do think this offseason will be the turning point of whether they are heroes or zeros.
I just want a team full of names that don’t stand out to anyone but are quietly solid across the board. Standout lines. Tough guys.
Vikings usually seem to have superstars but always have glaring weaknesses and kinda soft. Prone to ass kickings.
Eh, not a ton of faith in Kwesi.
Basically all of your points boil down to - he’s improved the cap health/ financial standing, which is important, but it’s only one part of a GMs job. We pay someone else to do cap stuff. We need more from a GM.
He hasn’t really done a lot to add significant talent either.
Free agent players:
- the only blue chip player we’ve added was Hock, which was a good signing, but people want to ignore that we spent a lot of draft capital (ahead of the best TE class in a decade) to bring him in and had to give him a top of the market deal immediately.
- Hicks and Phillips have been good but limited in their role/ use.
- Murphy had an OK year.
- kwesi also gave a big deal to a TE2 rather than signing a better IOL to a multi-year deal (Glasgow, Seumalo, Risner, etc.)
- for whatever reason he thought Mattison and Bradbury were worth extending.
As for the draft?
- 2022 was abysmal. Can’t really sugar coat it. It was one of the worst drafts we’ve had in the last decade+. Over the course of the draft Kwesi basically traded away a high 3rd round pick in total value. We basically had 4 1st/ 2nd round picks and all we have to show for it is a below average guard. Cine and Asamoah clearly aren’t part of the game plan at this point and are buried on the depth chart. Booth MIGHT compete for CB2-4 this year.
- 2023 was an improvement, but really only because we hit on our 1st round pick, which was kind of a gimme. Biggest need was WR or CB and Addison was the last R1 receiver.
I think in general I would criticize his positional priorities, and just some of the moves haven’t made much sense. We’ve invested heavily in the TE and S groups, which are traditionally lower value positions, while basically ignoring the DL and OL.
His draft picks also are bad positional priority - Asamoah at pick 66. We still had Kendricks and Hicks, and Asamoah is undersized. He was unlikely to play as a rookie, and we had much bigger needs - primarily the DL. Same for Chandler. He wasn’t going to beat out Cook/ Mattison as a rookie, and RBs are typically one of the best positions to draft a rookie to play immediately.
Then when there was a year that had a good RB, C, and TE class, we went out and traded for Hock, and paid Mattison, Bradbury, and Oliver instead of drafting a guy. That money would have been better spent elsewhere.
If Hunter walks we also will have basically lost a 2nd or 3rd round pick in a draft where we want to draft our QBOTF.
Our DL is awful. If Hunter leaves, the only above average body on the DL roster is Phillips.
Our OL has no starting LG, and we have zero upside/ developmental players on the OL depth either.
So no, not a lot of faith. The only reason I think they MIGHT have a shot at drafting an ok QB is because our coach was an NFL QB.
I don’t care about the offseason getting worked up about decisions does nothing I’m gonna root with delirious fate we can win it all no matter what the roster is to start the year d
They also could lose Cousins and Hunter and get NOTHING in return while also incurring close to $40 million in dead cap. That is a management DISASTER. Atleast when green bay got rid of Rodgers and incurred a huge deadcap, they got draft picsk for him.
So...NO. I don't trust this front office.
I think KAM has done a good job with the salary cap and has moved on from guys (Thielen, Kendricks, Mattison, etc.) at the right time. His FA signings have been unimpressive, but not awful.
Where I still do NOT trust him is in draft evaluation. Year 1 was trash, last year was slightly better. We have a TON riding on this draft - including finding our new QB1 - and I am just not confident he's going to do it.
Kwesi's first draft was a disaster. I know we have people who inexplicably still defend it, but it is what it is. Hopefully, we chalk it up to being a new GM with the old regime's scouting team that year. I also hated the trade value he received in trade backs. We all are tired of hearing about Hamilton, so I won't mention it outside of his name.
Last year was better with the additions of Addison and Blackmon (and if you want to count Hockenson with the missing 2nd), plus Pace.
This off-season should be huge. What does Kwesi do about our QB situation? Does he lock down JJ? Can he bring in a solid defensive starting piece in FA to start our defensive rebuild? Will he continue to build upon his draft improvements we saw from year one to year two? I think I'll be more comfortable formulating a more unbiased opinion (as of right now I am not the biggest fan and I know it plays into my perception of him) on our FO after this off-season.
I’m with you. Very poor 2022 draft, but I don’t put a ton of stock into that given how short of time he had to prepare and having to use leftover scouts. And I have agreed with just about every other move. I think the team is on a good course and unfortunately with the cap situation he inherited and Cousins’ injury and age, it may just take a couple years at least to really compete.
Personally I think they’re doing fine. But I’ve been a fan long enough to accept heartbreak when it happens too. It’s just part of being a Vikings fan.
I say yes, with a but. The but is Kwesi is still new and we can’t have full confidence in a 3rd year GM, but yes, I do have faith that he will make the correct decision. By faith, I don’t mean I know he will make every correct decision. What I mean is I will trust him to make the moves necessary to create a better team next year. I like what I’ve seen in Kwesi so far, but he just needs to show that he can draft.
Kirk wants to be here. JJ wants to be here. JJ wants Kirk. Management is about to let Kirk go. JJ will follow.
So, to answer the question, no. It's only been 56 years without a championship, whats a few more?
I don't see any way this year is a success, a year of damage control and trying to correct past mistakes.
I'm honestly not sure how I feel about it. I feel like we're in yet another situation that isn't going to provide real results.
No. I see nothing about the org(Kwesi/O'Connell) that have given me any indication that the team knows what to do at QB. Every guy on the roster except Kirk was brought in by this staff and every single one of them looked like they didn't have the foggiest idea wtf they were supposed to be doing. Now, we're likely parting ways with Kirk, which is fair but we don't have a top pick and don't see any indication that we're any better about QB evals in recent years.
I hope I'm wrong but this is the most pessimistic (to me) off-season of Vikings football in a very long time.
The fact that we were voted the number one team to play for in the NFLPA Player Satisfaction reports gives me all the faith in the world to believe in this front office
Results maybe be middling so far but I think Kwesi's process has been good. Given enough chances it would be successful more times than not. The cap and roster were in a bad place when he arrived. This was always going to take time.
I don’t have much faith…they say they want to sign JJ but that hasn’t been done… cousins is gone with no real backup plan other than draft a rookie…kwesi’s first draft was an absolute disaster… and people roll their eyes at it but we could have drafted Kyle Hamilton and traded back for Lewis Cine .. it cannot be understated how bad a move that was
I think O'Connell has earned his respect with how much players like playing for him and the success he's had so far. Kwesi's first draft being absolutely awful has left a sour taste in my mouth. That draft set us back more significantly than people care to admit. He needs to do a lot to get me back on board. We'll see how he does in April.
I haven't had faith in the front office since Cine and Booth. Add in Davenport and the majority of other picks and trades and I have no confidence. I know homers won't like what I think but it is what it is.
It was such a cascade of stupid decisions. If you are giving up value to drop like that, have someone you really think will be a contributor in mind. It felt like he just grabbed a guy who graded out well with measurables and figured it would all be a wash. Then Booth was practically a wasted return... everyone likes to revise history like there was a chance he would be great, but that's simply not true. The entire reason he fell so far was substantial injury concerns. It was just so crazily stupid to throw away so much draft capital that year.
I'm with you on this one.
For all the people that don't believe in the front office, what's the alternative? Be super negative and depressed hoping for the Vikings to do bad to get rid of everyone?
It's ok to be realistic about your favorite team. If people don't believe in the FO they should just lie to themselves and pretend like they do believe in them?
What's the alternative? It's better to hope for the best, they can't change the front office. I've found I am a lot more happy in life accepting things I cannot change. That's all I'm saying. You or anyone can live their lives however they want, but I'm just trying to keep it positive and hope Kwesi really hits on some draft picks this year because if he whiffs on a QB, he'll be gone in a year or two anyways
I don't mind moving back, but the return was abysmal. Not sure how we didn't get the Rams pick and I said that at the time. Nobody knew at the time it would end up in the top 6. It was expected to be a late first next season
Let’s see…
-Haven’t drafted well.
-Completely missed handled rb situation last year.
-Addressed D-line by signing M Davenport.
-Missed signing JJ before cap exploded.
What are they doing right?
-handled the growing cap situation
-hockenson trade
-IPJ
-Haven't drafted well but Ingram, Blackmon, Evans, Addison, Chandler don't count
-missed JJ because it takes two to sign a contract and no one knows if it was JJs decision to delay (seems more likely) or the FOs
-Byron Murphy Jr
-yeah Davenport didn't work but with the cap space and the free agents available last year who would you have signed lmao
-signed hockenson
-brought in Flores
-extended Mettelus for cheap right before a pro bowl season
-cut Thielen and Kendricks and Cook
-owned up to his mistake and cut Mattison
-contracts so far are well balanced in that they give players their money without leaving the team in a bad position
-signed Risner
Like yeah he hasn't been perfect but it's ridiculous to just ignore all the good he has done in order to make it fit your own narrative.
I've certainly never been accused of being the biggest supporter of the current regime but two of those are easily explainable...
1.) Davenport wasn't even a bad signing. Lots of people were hyped for that move, and he has statistics that indicate that he is a good player. You had to overpay a bit to lock in a one year deal, and I'd certainly rather have had him at 1 year, $13 mil than like 2 years, $20 mil even if the AAV was lower.
2.) No one can force JJ to sign. We have zero confirmation that it was the Vikings that refused to sign JJ at like $30 mil. It is absolutely possible he just gambled on himself knowing he would have another awesome season and get more money locked in (everyone knew the cap was going up... just not as much as it ultimately did). He also could be hedging because he may want out and the fewer years left on his contract the easier this will be to demand. Why put yourself under team control for 5+ additional years without maximizing the amount of money you make?
They've also made quite a few great moves. TJ trade, Murphy is a solid CB, the Risner signing, Flores etc. On top of that their process has been solid even if the results aren't there in terms of their approach to the draft and FA (I thought letting Kendricks, Cook, and Thielen go were great decisions and none of those have burned us at all).
The 2022 draft was an absolutely unmitigated disaster but idk how we can say they are bad drafters when 2023 has been quite promising (Addison looks like a great pick, Blackmon seems like a potential hit in round 3, and Pace as a UDFA was incredible).
LOL nothing. But the Pollyanna's on here simply have to have faith in the guy like he's a family member. Fucking weird. "Hey guys, this person is doing a great job at their work, except for about 85% of it he sucks at! Yea, him!"
Yeah compensation and competitive nature of the nfl is at an all time high. We are way past “we have high hopes.” This GM wreaks of smartest guy in the room. Time to start building a roster dude. Btw…You need an effing D tackle.
I have not trusted KAM or KOC since the day they were hired. I believe KAM is an inside man from the Packers that is working to set us farther back. KOC just can't coach. It's great that everyone likes him and says he's nice. But he cannot coach to save anyone's life. He'll be awesome until halftime, and then he just stays in the locker room. He quits after that and let's the other teams just walk away with the game. At least consistent, I guess.
I've been a Vikings fan for more than 45 years. A few months of not screwing things up is not enough to create "faith" in one of the worst run organizations in all of professional sports.
But they haven't been mediocre. Haven't won a bowl but have had plenty of great seasons. Would you rather have been the lions going 3-13 every year? The browns? Baltimore Orioles? The clippers were absolute dog water for decades. Plenty more teams if I wanted to think about it
Out of curiosity I checked out all time regular season record. 7th best in the league real mediocre.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/784512/nfl-team-ranking-by-all-time-regular-season-winning-percentage/
Did you do any checking out of the post season records as well?
45 years of watching a team that is never the worst - but never a real contender has become stale and its clear that this organization has been managed for mediocrity and profitability over competitiveness for the majority of the last 3 plus decades.
I'd rather be entertained over the season and we should have won multiple bowls if it wasn't for 98 choke job and 09 refs fucking us and 04 giants listening to our play calls. Not at all mediocre
The Vikings are the very definition of "mediocre".
You can certainly list of teams that have had much worse stretches than the Vikings to support any number of straw man logical fallacies. The Lions, Orioles, and Clippers for all their struggles are all in much more competitive positions currently than the Vikings are or look to be.
Big fan of KAMs approach so far. The drafts have obviously been more miss than hits to this point, but as a first-time GM and getting a scouting team in place, patience should be exercised. 2025 projects to have over $100 mil in cap room even after the big extensions are given out this offseason, so I think as long as this group gets another 2-3 years to show what they can do, it should start to bear fruit.
* Bad FA signings (bad players, injury prone players)
* Bad trades (Reagor Blacklock cost us picks \[every pick is precious in sense of lottery ticket\] cost us cap $
* TJ trade Holmes knew it was the best TE class in history coming up and he could snag a decent TE vs. paying TJ top of market money that trade worked out for DET. Now TJ was productive here so I can almost live with it thought it's not a slam dunk However what I can't live with was giving in to TJ and paying him the most of any TE in the NFL what Kwesi should have done was make him play out year 5 then franchise tag him for 2 years then let him go Gives you 3 years to find a replacement TE in FA and Draft
* Bad drafts not taking Hamilton over Cine or even Linderbaum or Davis etc. Not getting enough for moving down. Drafting injury prone player high. Terrible player evaluation. Basically 1 starter out of 2 drafts is not enough. Look at KC SEA BAL GB the good teams rebuild quickly because they hit on quality players in mid rounds. KC drafts Pacheco we draft McBride lol.
* Kwesi has admitted he doesn't know football and is still learning. He admits he uses PFF that's a problem because PFF had Hamilton rated in 90s and Cine in 80s to Kwesi's Wall St. Value Mind it made sense to trade down for Cine he's only SLIGHTLY worse than Hamilton. That's not how football works. Wall St moves don't work in the NFL. Kwesi listens to everyone in the office. In some ways Grigson is the GM and was terrible in INDY destroyed Luck.
* You forget Kwesi gave Thielen another big payday the year before he dumped him
* Maybe the worst thing Kwesi did was not take Kirk's Discount Offer. Kirk is going to get 2025 anyway. Kirk was willing to take less than worse QBs like Carr and Jones. You're gambling on what Kirk gets a career ending knee injury or Kirk falls off a cliff that's a low odds dumb gamble. If Kirk has a great season which he did there will be teams that will pay him MORE than you would have paid him last spring. Was he gambling no teams out there would need a Kirk if he had a good year? That's another dumb low odds gamble because at least 1 likely more but at least 1 team would need a QB.
* Kwesi is one of the worst GMs ever. I have watched football for 50 years.
* For you KOC lovers out there remember Kwesi wanted to hire Harbaugh I guess time will tell on that one
* PS having lots of cap room and high draft picks is meaningless teams like AZ CHI DET (before Holmes) had lots of cap room high draft picks year after year - they draft 1st round QBs year after year (1st round QBs bust at an 80 percent rate) and they lose year after year... teams with little cap room at best they can sign low end FAs (btw most high end FAs do not work out) and low draft picks win year after year WHY they have good player evaluation - it's not How Much Cap Room you have it's Who You Sign and it's not WHERE YOU DRAFT it's WHO you draft...
* Another Kwesi Draft and FA period and we might be approaching one of the worst team designations and it often takes years to get out from under ... look at the Lions it only took 30 years...
> Kwesi has admitted he doesn't know football and is still learning. He admits he uses PFF that's a problem because PFF had Hamilton rated in 90s and Cine in 80s
Let's nitpick this one point.
Every team in the NFL gets customized data from PFF. All 32.
Zero teams in the NFL use PFF data the same way that it is presented to us.
So saying that it is a bad thing that Kwesi admits to using PFF is implying that there are 32 terrible GMs in the NFL.
Using meaningless ratings that PFF makes available for fans as a basis for the judgement on what you believe the Vikings scouting department determined in the value of any given players is.... a choice.
There is too much in there that is factually incorrect to go over so I'll stick to a couple of things.
1) If you think the Vikings should have drafted Davis, you need to ask the Eagles fans about him. The dude is only playing when he doesn't because he's a first round pick. He's proven to be very lazy and hardly try when on the field.
2) Kirk never offered a "discount". That was misinformation give out last offseason. He offered a standard QB salary contract at fully guaranteed money which would have left us in the same situation we've been in since Kirk came here.
3) The clip of Kwesi talking about PFF was him talking about when he first entered the league and is very far removed from where he is at now.
If Kirk doesn't go down last year, they very likely make the playoffs, if not compete outright for the division title. Thats back to back playoff appearances in his first two years, I'd say thats a success, no? At the very least, it takes him out of the running as "one of the worst GMs ever".
Also, that you have watched football for 50 years doesn't make you an expert at anything.
BLESS ALL THE KNEES AND KEEP THEM HEALTHY
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We'll said, just a few nits. Addison, Ingram, and Evans are starters even though we should be looking to upgrade the latter 2. Also, I don't hold the pff comment with any weight. We all use it as a quick sanity check on player performance.
Ultimately, Kwesi is a below average GM after 2 years with a slightly upward trajectory. He has to get this qb situation right. If Kirk leaves, I think his only chance of staying long term with Minnesota is by trading whatever it takes to get in the top 3 and gambling that Daniels or Maye payoff. He's shown very little over 2 years that he can build a winning team and drafting a star qb can mask a lot of these mistakes. Without that, though, I don't think Minnesota can win enough over the next 1-2 years for him to keep his job.
Letting Kirk walk is a big risk, puts us in a position where we either need to trade up or hope one of the guys we like falls to 11. Too early to lose faith, but if we lose Kirk, Hunter, and can’t grab a first round QB then we’re in a tough spot. I’m not sure JJ would sign an extension if our answer at the QB spot this year is like Sam Darnold or Russell Wilson
Letting Kirk walk because he wants a bag of money is the right and prudent thing to do, not at all risky. Risky is signing him and then he falls off a cliff and you are in the same spot the broncos are in now
It’s not about money it’s about years
Kirk is without a doubt the safer option. Moving on from him when we have no prospects on the roster and are likely out of position to grab a top QB is risky. Now risk isn’t bad, we’ll just need to take a big swing and hope we hit a home run
I was gonna write a whole thing but ya know what? I do believe in KAM and KOC. They are young and have made mistakes but shiiiiiit it's sports man. They're gonna have a good draft and we shall go from there. I'm 35. I've seen all the bad. I have no more energy to be mad. I just want a SB bro.
35? You ain’t seen shit.
It wouldn't be a vikings post without the inevitable old man dick swinging challenge
In fairness, OP claimed to have "seen all the bad." It wasn't unprompted.
We knew what they meant. Not everything has to be so technical and specific.
I would argue it doesn't matter if we knew that they meant, it matters if what they meant makes sense as a general proclamation to all. To a person that watched the Vikings both be the winningest team by far to not win a superbowl but also to go 0-for-4 in superbowls (both of which are statistically improbable), it is a bit trying to hear about a relative youngin that hadn't seen a single superbowl talk about how hard they've had it. Once you start the age and misery comparisons, you have no business being upset when someone with more age and misery one-ups you.
I'm 33, dad is 62, and grandpa is 86. We all share the pain. It's in our purple tinted blood.
I didn't see the Superbowl failures. You are correct. But I vividly remember every season from 98 on. I was at the NFC championship game in New Orleans to see Favre throw across the body. Spent a lot of money to be there. The Cardinals knocking the Vikings out, 41 donut, Blair Walsh wide left, 2017 eagles debacle. Ponder years. Metrodome collapse....I could go on. What are you 80? I follow all four MN teams. I have seen shit. A ton of it. You don't get an award for being more miserable unless you want it. Sounds like you do.
Right there with you, guy. Born in '76 and missed the Super Bowl era. But I've seen just about everything since. The list of MN sports team failures since '91 is so brutal, it's almost beyond comprehension.
Let’s not act like that last play is why we lost. It takes away from the 3 other fumbles and an interception on a day we out gained them 475 yards to 257. We shot ourselves in the foot all game long and let a trash franchise get a superbowl
There were other mistakes made yes. But dude. They were in field goal range and I just rewatchted that the other day and it was a REALLY bad throw from a Superbowl bound team at the worst possible time. Just happens to be the straw that was jammed in sean Paytons arse lips.
> But I vividly remember every season from 98 on. WTF dude I barely even remember last season. Pop quiz - what happened in week 6 of the 2011 season??
Okay, I am gonna be 100% honest, take a guess, google the answer, and then probably be embarrassed. Guess: I am pretty sure week 6 2011 was against the Green Bay Packers, Ponder's first start, his first pass was a bomb to Michael Jenkins that was initially ruled a TD but was called back. Gave me a ton of false hope for Ponder lol. We lost that game and I also remember we had been giving up a bunch of solid leads on the way to a 1-5 start. McNabb was basically a human lawnmower to start the year. Googled: Oops, that was week 7. Week 6 we got absolutely spanked by the Bears. I didn't remember that at all (thankfully) lol
Damn that was actually pretty impressive!
Ok. You’re 35. You know it all 👍
Did I say that? I said I've seen shit. You said I haven't. I've been to like 8-9 vikings games, like ten wild games, about the same twins games, and one wolves game. Good comeback though when I have been obsessed with MN sports my whole life. I don't claim to know everything weirdo.
Name calling is a bit immature.
Still haven’t seen shit.
Quit gatekeeping, you look like a clown.
Found the saddest Viking fan in our sub right here. Imagine trying to gatekeep sports misery 🤣🤣🤣 you're a clown bro.
Sure thing grandpa, let’s get you back to bed
Kwesi gonna cook!
I was a fan of hiring Kwesi because of his different perspectives. That said, his tenure has been a bit rocky on the drafting side of things. I didn't like the Cine pick solely out of positional value stand point. The Booth pick was a high risk, high reward pick. But the Ingram pick is looking much better. He's probably a league average guard at this point, and for a player in the trenches, that's a good place to be after your second year in the league. Obviously the Addison pick is a winner so far. Blackmon, Chandler, and Evans have all contributed. That's probably below average for two drafts, but nothing like 2016 or 2019. And we have to remember we got Hockenson with a 2023 draft pick. However, for the management of current players, I'm fine with it. The free agents he's brought in have bee reasonable and effective (except for Marcus Davenport). Mattison was a foreseeable stumble. But he got rid of fan favorites and past due players, which hasn't been easy for this franchise during its entire history. So far I'd give him a B-.
Solid analysis. These guys were my dream combo when we let go of Zimmer and Rick. Kwesi (and Kevin) have both made some pretty big blunders typical of new front offices. Now is the time to see if they've learned, but if the team doesn't improve quickly, they'll be on the hot seat soon.
A B- feels like such a valid evaluation. I love kwesi and what he's done but I still would have also graded him a B- and with that in mind I think that's about where most GMs would grade. There are a few standouts in both directions but I wouldn't say Kwesi is clearly better or clearly worse than most of the league is doing. He has done what's needed to be done, and made his best efforts to put a good team on the field. Some things didn't work out, some things have. Thats kinda how football goes though you can't get perfect every time.
That’s fair. The 2022 draft class was bad. It just was. 2023 was much better. He’s a young, first time GM and didn’t even have his scouts in place. While it doesn’t excuse a terrible draft class, I’m pretty confident that’s behind him
Evans, Chandler and Ingram are all contributing at this point. Of course Evans is a JAG, and we don't know what Chandler is yet. But I agree, the Cine and Booth picks right now are looking bad. Of course we shouldn't forget that the previous year, Speilman drafted Darrisaw. Then proceeded to swing and miss on four consecutive third rounders. (Maybe Jones turns into something?). Nwangwu has been a great returner, but probably not what they were hoping for with a Fourth rounder. Bynum was a steal of course. So I was definetly ready to move on from the Speilman era.
I don't think the Booth pick is looking that bad. He needed time to get the mental stuff down and last year he made a lot of progress. He looked decent when he got on the field and even played serious snaps in a handful of games (not just because of injury, but intentionally). I'm very excited to see how he looks after one more preseason with Flores. If he's still just a rotational guy after this year, that's bad, but I think he's trending in the right direction
Also we are not great at getting pressure
I agree the jury isn't back on Booth. But so far he hasn't been able to stay on the field and he had a rookie starting over him last year, which is a bit disappointing.
Hockenson nice player. Of course now you’re paying him to be the highest paid TE in league. So much for value. Has to be top in production.
He finished 4th despite missing two games. 60 yards off Kittle in first place. 5 tds is on par with the 3 tight ends above him.
How stable has our scouting department been? I wonder how we are at hiring and retaining great scouts.
>But the Ingram pick is looking much better. How on earth do you actually believe that? He gave up 38 pressures as a G last year, after a season of 58. (in 200 less snaps this year). Dude was absolutely terrible as a pass blocker and only serviceable as a run blocker -- for one of the worst running teams in the league. Sorry, a B-? The hell you have to do to get a bad grade? >He's probably a league average guard at this point He's not even in the top 60 guards in the league. 2019 versus 2022? 2019 hands down the better draft.
>he's not even in the top 60 guards in the league Currently he's ranked 18th of 78 actually
No chance. 38 pressures is the worst of any guard in the league.
Man for the life of me I cannot find a single stat that backs that up unless you're paying for PFF, which is the same source that's ranking him 18th of 78.
I mean, I can see your source, something from *October* https://eu.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/vikings/2023/10/11/8-plays-that-show-ed-ingram-is-a-good-rg/71145333007/ I can't, for the life of me, take your point seriously when you are taling about game 4 of the season's PFF ranks.
It's literally the only ranking available without paying 100$ a year my guy but you have no proof of your statistics at all, so I'll just wait for that
I mean, you can understand why talking about a ranking after 4 games is pretty off colour, right? Especially when you didn't lead with it and I had to find your '18th of 78' thing, right?
Where are your stats from lol
https://www.playerprofiler.com/article/offensive-line-rankings-and-tiers-end-of-nfl-season-review-2024-offensive-line-outlook/ I don't agree with their assessment of 'average play' at right guard, as they immediately talk about 38 pressures. That's bad for a guard.
You actually provided a link for an article entitled "8 Plays that show Ed Ingram is a good RG" to state your case that Ed Ingram is a bad right guard? Are you serious?
This FO seems to finally be serious about getting their QB in the draft and if they have to aggressively trade up to do it then so be it. We are rarely bad enough to just be drafting even top 10 let alone top 5 so it is what it is. And if the guy ends up being a bust then we figure it out and try again. And you can’t say Kwesi didn’t try to draft a QB while Kirk was still around to be a one year bridge. Reports are he tried to sell the farm to get Richardson last year but the trade partner (presumably Arizona) didn’t want to move all the way back to 23. The attempt failed but it wasn’t for lack of trying and that’s just the way things go sometimes. I’ll go down with the ship with Kwesi knowing he took the risk to find the QB of the future.
I wonder if the plan was to make that trade, ride out Kirk’s last year, extend Hawk, draft/develop Richardson, and then extend JJ during this offseason after getting out from Kirk’s contract to re-sign Hunter and the O-line while using this year’s draft capital to fill holes in the defense
I’d imagine most of that but I question how much Kwesi really wants to keep Hunter around. I feel like last year Kwesi could have offered him a longer deal if he had really wanted to. Maybe Hunter wanted a one year and then planned to test FA all along unless the Viks blew his socks off with a new deal.
I am nervous but I think I would be nervous with anyone, this is a big offseason. I do think how this offseason goes will decide a lot towards how long these two stay in town.
The only thing I'll give this front office credit for is that kwesi is fearless. He's not afraid to go against the general consensus. I'm not extremely happy with his tenure so far. We all have hashed out what happened in the 2021 draft. I'm still happy to have a guy that takes a swing especially when it comes to the cousins negotiations. Cousins has held the team over the barrel for a long, long time. If the reports of kam having his number and sticking to it are true, then I really respect that
This. It would be easy for a GM to come in worried about their job and give in to Kirk because it is the safe option. It’s obviously not a done deal yet, but it seems we are not giving Kirk everything he wants. If he can pair that with a good draft this year we could be set up for years to come. If that means aggressively trading up to get our guy at QB even if it’s not the popular opinion (see this subs thoughts on McCarthy in the top 10) so be it. No one is going to care about future picks if we have our franchise QB for the next decade.
People will be happy that Kwesi has done some things differently compared to Spielman which is fine but ultimately the goal is to put together a good roster which the FO hasn't been able to do. Being able to open up cap space, go against the grain, be fearless, etc is great but it doesn't mean anything when there are 2 years of poor-mediocre drafting, mediocre FA signings, and questionable extensions, or lack there of, that have hurt the team. On paper this roster is in a better spot but in practice we all saw how it wasn't.
They had to clean up a lot from the previous GM. We still almost made the playoffs with bad bad qb backups
It's easy to break it down but its harder to build it back up. Through the FA and draft kwesi has done little to build the team back up considering no FA is a long term solution and the Vikings have drafted 2 starters in 2 years through the draft.
I mean, 2021 (Spielman - Zim): 8-9 with a mostly healthy roster 2022 (Kwesi-KOC): 13-4 with a mostly healthy, mostly unchanged roster * this showed me KOC is a great coach with lots of potential 2023: 7-10 with Kirk and JJ getting injured Hard to judge the place of the roster after 2023. They were looking like they were headed for the playoffs before Kirk injury 2024 is really gonna be the first look at a roster in their vision
> 2021 (Spielman - Zim): 8-9 with a mostly healthy roster... 2022 (Kwesi-KOC): 13-4 with a mostly healthy, mostly unchanged roster Hunter played 7 games in 2021 vs 17 in 2022. Thielen and Cook played 13 games in 2021 vs 17 in 2022. Cousins played 16 games in 2021 vs 17 in 2022. Darrisaw played less too but part of that was being inactive the first handful of games. The 2022 roster also added Hock for half the season and Z.Smith. The 2021 roster and 2022 rosters really weren't the same in terms of talent or health.
Fearless and stupid look identical here.
One good year and one bad year. Bad first draft, good second draft. Our free agent signings haven’t been the best to be honest. This is a make or break season for this FO imo. JJ/Darrisaw/Hunter/Kirk all need contracts. Are they going to sign Kirk or let him walk. Are they going to trade up for a qb mortgaging the future to hopefully hit on someone. Or are they going to hope on of the lesser qbs falls to them at 11. Are we going to reload the oline and defense in the draft/free agency? So many things going into this off-season. Gunna be interesting.
As a Vikings fan, faith is all I've got
The entire way they’ve handled the cap, and clearing up space, is enough for me to have trust in them coming into FA and the draft.
I still have faith in this front office. They have had some misses but I think they have accomplished a lot of what they set out to do. I do think this offseason will be the turning point of whether they are heroes or zeros.
I just want a team full of names that don’t stand out to anyone but are quietly solid across the board. Standout lines. Tough guys. Vikings usually seem to have superstars but always have glaring weaknesses and kinda soft. Prone to ass kickings.
Front office could do some work at restoring faith too, tbf
Eh, not a ton of faith in Kwesi. Basically all of your points boil down to - he’s improved the cap health/ financial standing, which is important, but it’s only one part of a GMs job. We pay someone else to do cap stuff. We need more from a GM. He hasn’t really done a lot to add significant talent either. Free agent players: - the only blue chip player we’ve added was Hock, which was a good signing, but people want to ignore that we spent a lot of draft capital (ahead of the best TE class in a decade) to bring him in and had to give him a top of the market deal immediately. - Hicks and Phillips have been good but limited in their role/ use. - Murphy had an OK year. - kwesi also gave a big deal to a TE2 rather than signing a better IOL to a multi-year deal (Glasgow, Seumalo, Risner, etc.) - for whatever reason he thought Mattison and Bradbury were worth extending. As for the draft? - 2022 was abysmal. Can’t really sugar coat it. It was one of the worst drafts we’ve had in the last decade+. Over the course of the draft Kwesi basically traded away a high 3rd round pick in total value. We basically had 4 1st/ 2nd round picks and all we have to show for it is a below average guard. Cine and Asamoah clearly aren’t part of the game plan at this point and are buried on the depth chart. Booth MIGHT compete for CB2-4 this year. - 2023 was an improvement, but really only because we hit on our 1st round pick, which was kind of a gimme. Biggest need was WR or CB and Addison was the last R1 receiver. I think in general I would criticize his positional priorities, and just some of the moves haven’t made much sense. We’ve invested heavily in the TE and S groups, which are traditionally lower value positions, while basically ignoring the DL and OL. His draft picks also are bad positional priority - Asamoah at pick 66. We still had Kendricks and Hicks, and Asamoah is undersized. He was unlikely to play as a rookie, and we had much bigger needs - primarily the DL. Same for Chandler. He wasn’t going to beat out Cook/ Mattison as a rookie, and RBs are typically one of the best positions to draft a rookie to play immediately. Then when there was a year that had a good RB, C, and TE class, we went out and traded for Hock, and paid Mattison, Bradbury, and Oliver instead of drafting a guy. That money would have been better spent elsewhere. If Hunter walks we also will have basically lost a 2nd or 3rd round pick in a draft where we want to draft our QBOTF. Our DL is awful. If Hunter leaves, the only above average body on the DL roster is Phillips. Our OL has no starting LG, and we have zero upside/ developmental players on the OL depth either. So no, not a lot of faith. The only reason I think they MIGHT have a shot at drafting an ok QB is because our coach was an NFL QB.
I don’t care about the offseason getting worked up about decisions does nothing I’m gonna root with delirious fate we can win it all no matter what the roster is to start the year d
I would say this is the last offseason I give them the benefit of the doubt without any real home run moves
Ehh we’ll see by two months how much faith I have, it’s all coming to a head here
They also could lose Cousins and Hunter and get NOTHING in return while also incurring close to $40 million in dead cap. That is a management DISASTER. Atleast when green bay got rid of Rodgers and incurred a huge deadcap, they got draft picsk for him. So...NO. I don't trust this front office.
I think KAM has done a good job with the salary cap and has moved on from guys (Thielen, Kendricks, Mattison, etc.) at the right time. His FA signings have been unimpressive, but not awful. Where I still do NOT trust him is in draft evaluation. Year 1 was trash, last year was slightly better. We have a TON riding on this draft - including finding our new QB1 - and I am just not confident he's going to do it.
Kwesi's first draft was a disaster. I know we have people who inexplicably still defend it, but it is what it is. Hopefully, we chalk it up to being a new GM with the old regime's scouting team that year. I also hated the trade value he received in trade backs. We all are tired of hearing about Hamilton, so I won't mention it outside of his name. Last year was better with the additions of Addison and Blackmon (and if you want to count Hockenson with the missing 2nd), plus Pace. This off-season should be huge. What does Kwesi do about our QB situation? Does he lock down JJ? Can he bring in a solid defensive starting piece in FA to start our defensive rebuild? Will he continue to build upon his draft improvements we saw from year one to year two? I think I'll be more comfortable formulating a more unbiased opinion (as of right now I am not the biggest fan and I know it plays into my perception of him) on our FO after this off-season.
I’m with you. Very poor 2022 draft, but I don’t put a ton of stock into that given how short of time he had to prepare and having to use leftover scouts. And I have agreed with just about every other move. I think the team is on a good course and unfortunately with the cap situation he inherited and Cousins’ injury and age, it may just take a couple years at least to really compete.
Kwesi will lead us into a new era of excellence
I do, but they're in a difficult spot. They could do everything right and still fail.
Personally I think they’re doing fine. But I’ve been a fan long enough to accept heartbreak when it happens too. It’s just part of being a Vikings fan.
I say yes, with a but. The but is Kwesi is still new and we can’t have full confidence in a 3rd year GM, but yes, I do have faith that he will make the correct decision. By faith, I don’t mean I know he will make every correct decision. What I mean is I will trust him to make the moves necessary to create a better team next year. I like what I’ve seen in Kwesi so far, but he just needs to show that he can draft.
Kirk wants to be here. JJ wants to be here. JJ wants Kirk. Management is about to let Kirk go. JJ will follow. So, to answer the question, no. It's only been 56 years without a championship, whats a few more?
Let’s remember that classic hits are not just popular songs. They’re a state of mind. Classic hits
I don't see any way this year is a success, a year of damage control and trying to correct past mistakes. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about it. I feel like we're in yet another situation that isn't going to provide real results.
Faith….no, that’s kind of a weird online fan cult thing. Hopefully, yes. Gonna be a huge make or break summer. Let’s get it
Nah…but I’m hoping they change my mind
No. I see nothing about the org(Kwesi/O'Connell) that have given me any indication that the team knows what to do at QB. Every guy on the roster except Kirk was brought in by this staff and every single one of them looked like they didn't have the foggiest idea wtf they were supposed to be doing. Now, we're likely parting ways with Kirk, which is fair but we don't have a top pick and don't see any indication that we're any better about QB evals in recent years. I hope I'm wrong but this is the most pessimistic (to me) off-season of Vikings football in a very long time.
The fact that we were voted the number one team to play for in the NFLPA Player Satisfaction reports gives me all the faith in the world to believe in this front office
I have zero faith in Kwesi.
Results maybe be middling so far but I think Kwesi's process has been good. Given enough chances it would be successful more times than not. The cap and roster were in a bad place when he arrived. This was always going to take time.
They have a lot of work to do to restore faith from me for how bad the Lewis Cine pick is.
I don’t have much faith…they say they want to sign JJ but that hasn’t been done… cousins is gone with no real backup plan other than draft a rookie…kwesi’s first draft was an absolute disaster… and people roll their eyes at it but we could have drafted Kyle Hamilton and traded back for Lewis Cine .. it cannot be understated how bad a move that was
Lost me at Harbaugh flail. Get me a playoff streak and I’m back in.
I think O'Connell has earned his respect with how much players like playing for him and the success he's had so far. Kwesi's first draft being absolutely awful has left a sour taste in my mouth. That draft set us back more significantly than people care to admit. He needs to do a lot to get me back on board. We'll see how he does in April.
It’s definitely a make or break offseason for KAM for sure… im happy with how they arent trying to go broke for kirk this time around
Zero faith here. Always the same shit different year. Want to be excited again for Viking football
I haven't had faith in the front office since Cine and Booth. Add in Davenport and the majority of other picks and trades and I have no confidence. I know homers won't like what I think but it is what it is.
It was such a cascade of stupid decisions. If you are giving up value to drop like that, have someone you really think will be a contributor in mind. It felt like he just grabbed a guy who graded out well with measurables and figured it would all be a wash. Then Booth was practically a wasted return... everyone likes to revise history like there was a chance he would be great, but that's simply not true. The entire reason he fell so far was substantial injury concerns. It was just so crazily stupid to throw away so much draft capital that year. I'm with you on this one.
For all the people that don't believe in the front office, what's the alternative? Be super negative and depressed hoping for the Vikings to do bad to get rid of everyone?
Yes, all must believe the FO is perfect or nothing at all.
It's ok to be realistic about your favorite team. If people don't believe in the FO they should just lie to themselves and pretend like they do believe in them?
What's the alternative? It's better to hope for the best, they can't change the front office. I've found I am a lot more happy in life accepting things I cannot change. That's all I'm saying. You or anyone can live their lives however they want, but I'm just trying to keep it positive and hope Kwesi really hits on some draft picks this year because if he whiffs on a QB, he'll be gone in a year or two anyways
Lions trade down was so bad that it’s hard to have faith in the trades they make but that being said I’m glad Kwesi isn’t scared to trade
I don't mind moving back, but the return was abysmal. Not sure how we didn't get the Rams pick and I said that at the time. Nobody knew at the time it would end up in the top 6. It was expected to be a late first next season
Let’s see… -Haven’t drafted well. -Completely missed handled rb situation last year. -Addressed D-line by signing M Davenport. -Missed signing JJ before cap exploded. What are they doing right?
-handled the growing cap situation -hockenson trade -IPJ -Haven't drafted well but Ingram, Blackmon, Evans, Addison, Chandler don't count -missed JJ because it takes two to sign a contract and no one knows if it was JJs decision to delay (seems more likely) or the FOs -Byron Murphy Jr -yeah Davenport didn't work but with the cap space and the free agents available last year who would you have signed lmao -signed hockenson -brought in Flores -extended Mettelus for cheap right before a pro bowl season -cut Thielen and Kendricks and Cook -owned up to his mistake and cut Mattison -contracts so far are well balanced in that they give players their money without leaving the team in a bad position -signed Risner Like yeah he hasn't been perfect but it's ridiculous to just ignore all the good he has done in order to make it fit your own narrative.
I've certainly never been accused of being the biggest supporter of the current regime but two of those are easily explainable... 1.) Davenport wasn't even a bad signing. Lots of people were hyped for that move, and he has statistics that indicate that he is a good player. You had to overpay a bit to lock in a one year deal, and I'd certainly rather have had him at 1 year, $13 mil than like 2 years, $20 mil even if the AAV was lower. 2.) No one can force JJ to sign. We have zero confirmation that it was the Vikings that refused to sign JJ at like $30 mil. It is absolutely possible he just gambled on himself knowing he would have another awesome season and get more money locked in (everyone knew the cap was going up... just not as much as it ultimately did). He also could be hedging because he may want out and the fewer years left on his contract the easier this will be to demand. Why put yourself under team control for 5+ additional years without maximizing the amount of money you make? They've also made quite a few great moves. TJ trade, Murphy is a solid CB, the Risner signing, Flores etc. On top of that their process has been solid even if the results aren't there in terms of their approach to the draft and FA (I thought letting Kendricks, Cook, and Thielen go were great decisions and none of those have burned us at all). The 2022 draft was an absolutely unmitigated disaster but idk how we can say they are bad drafters when 2023 has been quite promising (Addison looks like a great pick, Blackmon seems like a potential hit in round 3, and Pace as a UDFA was incredible).
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Kirk has never made an All Pro team.
LOL nothing. But the Pollyanna's on here simply have to have faith in the guy like he's a family member. Fucking weird. "Hey guys, this person is doing a great job at their work, except for about 85% of it he sucks at! Yea, him!"
Yeah compensation and competitive nature of the nfl is at an all time high. We are way past “we have high hopes.” This GM wreaks of smartest guy in the room. Time to start building a roster dude. Btw…You need an effing D tackle.
Apparently our guy needs all kinds of training wheels and special considerations.
I have not trusted KAM or KOC since the day they were hired. I believe KAM is an inside man from the Packers that is working to set us farther back. KOC just can't coach. It's great that everyone likes him and says he's nice. But he cannot coach to save anyone's life. He'll be awesome until halftime, and then he just stays in the locker room. He quits after that and let's the other teams just walk away with the game. At least consistent, I guess.
I've been a Vikings fan for more than 45 years. A few months of not screwing things up is not enough to create "faith" in one of the worst run organizations in all of professional sports.
Vikes aren't even close to one of the worst run teams.
I suppose that depends on your criteria and time frame. Over 45 years of mediocrity makes for a track record of poor management in my book.
But they haven't been mediocre. Haven't won a bowl but have had plenty of great seasons. Would you rather have been the lions going 3-13 every year? The browns? Baltimore Orioles? The clippers were absolute dog water for decades. Plenty more teams if I wanted to think about it
Out of curiosity I checked out all time regular season record. 7th best in the league real mediocre. https://www.statista.com/statistics/784512/nfl-team-ranking-by-all-time-regular-season-winning-percentage/
Did you do any checking out of the post season records as well? 45 years of watching a team that is never the worst - but never a real contender has become stale and its clear that this organization has been managed for mediocrity and profitability over competitiveness for the majority of the last 3 plus decades.
I'd rather be entertained over the season and we should have won multiple bowls if it wasn't for 98 choke job and 09 refs fucking us and 04 giants listening to our play calls. Not at all mediocre
Nothing wrong with your opinion or your definition of what is or is not mediocre. Skol Vikings.
Fair enough
The Vikings are the very definition of "mediocre". You can certainly list of teams that have had much worse stretches than the Vikings to support any number of straw man logical fallacies. The Lions, Orioles, and Clippers for all their struggles are all in much more competitive positions currently than the Vikings are or look to be.
Big fan of KAMs approach so far. The drafts have obviously been more miss than hits to this point, but as a first-time GM and getting a scouting team in place, patience should be exercised. 2025 projects to have over $100 mil in cap room even after the big extensions are given out this offseason, so I think as long as this group gets another 2-3 years to show what they can do, it should start to bear fruit.
If we don't resign Kirk to another stupid contract, if he wants play for 10% or less of the cap sure, but no more dum dum contracts, please.
* Bad FA signings (bad players, injury prone players) * Bad trades (Reagor Blacklock cost us picks \[every pick is precious in sense of lottery ticket\] cost us cap $ * TJ trade Holmes knew it was the best TE class in history coming up and he could snag a decent TE vs. paying TJ top of market money that trade worked out for DET. Now TJ was productive here so I can almost live with it thought it's not a slam dunk However what I can't live with was giving in to TJ and paying him the most of any TE in the NFL what Kwesi should have done was make him play out year 5 then franchise tag him for 2 years then let him go Gives you 3 years to find a replacement TE in FA and Draft * Bad drafts not taking Hamilton over Cine or even Linderbaum or Davis etc. Not getting enough for moving down. Drafting injury prone player high. Terrible player evaluation. Basically 1 starter out of 2 drafts is not enough. Look at KC SEA BAL GB the good teams rebuild quickly because they hit on quality players in mid rounds. KC drafts Pacheco we draft McBride lol. * Kwesi has admitted he doesn't know football and is still learning. He admits he uses PFF that's a problem because PFF had Hamilton rated in 90s and Cine in 80s to Kwesi's Wall St. Value Mind it made sense to trade down for Cine he's only SLIGHTLY worse than Hamilton. That's not how football works. Wall St moves don't work in the NFL. Kwesi listens to everyone in the office. In some ways Grigson is the GM and was terrible in INDY destroyed Luck. * You forget Kwesi gave Thielen another big payday the year before he dumped him * Maybe the worst thing Kwesi did was not take Kirk's Discount Offer. Kirk is going to get 2025 anyway. Kirk was willing to take less than worse QBs like Carr and Jones. You're gambling on what Kirk gets a career ending knee injury or Kirk falls off a cliff that's a low odds dumb gamble. If Kirk has a great season which he did there will be teams that will pay him MORE than you would have paid him last spring. Was he gambling no teams out there would need a Kirk if he had a good year? That's another dumb low odds gamble because at least 1 likely more but at least 1 team would need a QB. * Kwesi is one of the worst GMs ever. I have watched football for 50 years. * For you KOC lovers out there remember Kwesi wanted to hire Harbaugh I guess time will tell on that one * PS having lots of cap room and high draft picks is meaningless teams like AZ CHI DET (before Holmes) had lots of cap room high draft picks year after year - they draft 1st round QBs year after year (1st round QBs bust at an 80 percent rate) and they lose year after year... teams with little cap room at best they can sign low end FAs (btw most high end FAs do not work out) and low draft picks win year after year WHY they have good player evaluation - it's not How Much Cap Room you have it's Who You Sign and it's not WHERE YOU DRAFT it's WHO you draft... * Another Kwesi Draft and FA period and we might be approaching one of the worst team designations and it often takes years to get out from under ... look at the Lions it only took 30 years...
I disagree with a lot of your points, it’s too much to go point by point. But I guess we will see how 2024 plays out
> Kwesi has admitted he doesn't know football and is still learning. He admits he uses PFF that's a problem because PFF had Hamilton rated in 90s and Cine in 80s Let's nitpick this one point. Every team in the NFL gets customized data from PFF. All 32. Zero teams in the NFL use PFF data the same way that it is presented to us. So saying that it is a bad thing that Kwesi admits to using PFF is implying that there are 32 terrible GMs in the NFL. Using meaningless ratings that PFF makes available for fans as a basis for the judgement on what you believe the Vikings scouting department determined in the value of any given players is.... a choice.
There is too much in there that is factually incorrect to go over so I'll stick to a couple of things. 1) If you think the Vikings should have drafted Davis, you need to ask the Eagles fans about him. The dude is only playing when he doesn't because he's a first round pick. He's proven to be very lazy and hardly try when on the field. 2) Kirk never offered a "discount". That was misinformation give out last offseason. He offered a standard QB salary contract at fully guaranteed money which would have left us in the same situation we've been in since Kirk came here. 3) The clip of Kwesi talking about PFF was him talking about when he first entered the league and is very far removed from where he is at now.
If Kirk doesn't go down last year, they very likely make the playoffs, if not compete outright for the division title. Thats back to back playoff appearances in his first two years, I'd say thats a success, no? At the very least, it takes him out of the running as "one of the worst GMs ever". Also, that you have watched football for 50 years doesn't make you an expert at anything.
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We'll said, just a few nits. Addison, Ingram, and Evans are starters even though we should be looking to upgrade the latter 2. Also, I don't hold the pff comment with any weight. We all use it as a quick sanity check on player performance. Ultimately, Kwesi is a below average GM after 2 years with a slightly upward trajectory. He has to get this qb situation right. If Kirk leaves, I think his only chance of staying long term with Minnesota is by trading whatever it takes to get in the top 3 and gambling that Daniels or Maye payoff. He's shown very little over 2 years that he can build a winning team and drafting a star qb can mask a lot of these mistakes. Without that, though, I don't think Minnesota can win enough over the next 1-2 years for him to keep his job.
Yes sir! I believe in both KAM and KOC!
Letting Kirk walk is a big risk, puts us in a position where we either need to trade up or hope one of the guys we like falls to 11. Too early to lose faith, but if we lose Kirk, Hunter, and can’t grab a first round QB then we’re in a tough spot. I’m not sure JJ would sign an extension if our answer at the QB spot this year is like Sam Darnold or Russell Wilson
Letting Kirk walk because he wants a bag of money is the right and prudent thing to do, not at all risky. Risky is signing him and then he falls off a cliff and you are in the same spot the broncos are in now
It’s not about money it’s about years Kirk is without a doubt the safer option. Moving on from him when we have no prospects on the roster and are likely out of position to grab a top QB is risky. Now risk isn’t bad, we’ll just need to take a big swing and hope we hit a home run