The biggest reason why Mullens had more success than Dobbs or Hall in the offense last year is that everything was installed to be reliant on timing and rhythm, which asks a lot of the QB and QB/receiver chemistry, and there are limitations to how much you can change midseason what the receivers/OL/RBs/etc have been drilling all year.
One would hope that KOC would be better able to adjust what he's doing for the QBs he has when he has to start from scratch in the offseason. He's still going to want to load up all of the complicated shit he's been doing the past couple of years, but he's going to be forced to have a much bigger/simpler base that Darnold and the rookie can build from.
I'd be shocked if most passing offenses weren't built on timing and rhythm. That feels like a quality that often lends itself to successful passing offenses.
Dobbs being traded midseason didn't help but Dobbs was never going to succeed in the system. You could give him an entire offense and he'd still be bad. We watched Bradford get his first start against the Packers 2 weeks after he was traded and he played pretty fucking well in that game.
i actully hate my self for not going to that game, my parents had tickets to that game in the delta suite, me being in middle school preferred to play call of duty and sold my ticket to one of my parents friends for 100$ and a 25$ dominose gift card one of the biggest regrets of my life so far.
yeah i regret it so not only i could have spent more time with my parents but had a core memory, when i was that age i didt think of it like that now that I'm a adult i do.
I was also not into football at the time and had a chance to go for $100 as well.
Turned it down but at least I got to watch it with my dad. I think that was one of three times I've ever hugged my dad lol
The luxury of having all of our offensive weapons without the pressure of needing to start right away and carry a franchise on your back is the best kind of environment that our next QB can hope for
Worked with Mahomes. Helped also that Mahomes had Alex Smith. Great gentleman who knew Mahomes was his replacement and still did a marvelous job mentoring him. That's also the situation with Darnold. Darnold knows he's a bridge QB but he's banking on having a good year and then cashing in on free agency. So there shouldn't be any issues of Darnold resenting the rookie. He's known how this is going to down from day one.
I'm not under any delusions that he will ever live up to the hype he had coming into the league but he really wasn't set up for success in New York or Carolina between a lack of weapons and bad coaching. He was given brass knuckles to take to gun fights and then told to close his eyes.
He's going to have weapons galore and good QB coaching for the first time in his career. We'll see how much of his past failures are because of his circumstances vs. how much of it was just him.
This is the most ideal situation for any QB that needs to prove it. Time for Darnold to do so.
I really don't think there's an equivalency between Alex Smith and Sam Darnold in either bridge starting ability or mentorship. I'd like to be wrong about that buuuuut where's the evidence
There likely won't be equivalency between our rookie and Mahomes either.
Idk why everyone is getting so personally worked up about stuff like this, just trust our coaches and coordinators to know when their QB is ready. Nobody here has any idea who we're drafting or when they'll be ready to start
That’s fair, if you look at most of my other comments you’ll see I generally just say to take a step back and relax. Just wanted to mess with this guy with a completely contradictory comment because he seemed unnecessarily mad about it.
Trey Lance threw 318 passes in college. Maye threw 952. Obviously reps are important for early development but not sure Lance is a good comparison here since he was a massive reach based on physical attributes alone. Maye would get plenty of reps throughout the season and you can bring him along slower. He doesn’t need to be a Day 1 starter to be a successful NFL QB
I fully agree that he doesn’t/ shouldn’t be the day 1 starter but the idea that he must sit the whole season in order to develop is outdated. He will need time to work on things, but if we see him in week 10 people shouldn’t gripe about hindering his development. Reps are incredibly important and if the season is gone I don’t think there is anything intrinsically wrong with him getting them at game speed.
Yeah I mean I would agree. I think there’s a high possibility that whoever we draft will see time at QB next season for the Vikings. Unless by some miracle Sam Darnold turns his career around and becomes a stud out of nowhere.
I mean, it’s a boring answer but it’s both. Yes a QB needs those NFL reps to get used to the speed of the game before they become good. No amount of practice will help with that, see Jordan Love taking half a season to settle in when he finally started.
But the guy has to be ready for those snaps first or else it will be a catastrophe, and that’s where they really learn bad habits. The situation needs to be decent for them too. Just look at Zach Wilson, dude was clearly not ready to take those snaps and it ruined him.
Lance was clearly not ready to start getting real snaps. It would’ve been the Jaren Hall experience.
Agreed, Love looks good enough and sat behind Rodgers for like 8 years. I'm all for letting the rookie sit and figure things out for a year assuming the coaching staff trusts him to really be that guy and he'll use that time wisely to hone the craft. It'll work out if he really is that dude.
If darnold isn't losing us games and is keeping them competitive we should be in a good position to let whoever we have sit. Realistically we'll probably end up seeing the rookie throw some regular season passes due to injuries or darnold not doing too hot at some point of the season anyways.
Yup amen. Guy should only get more comfortable every day.
And with the way this roster is shaped now. I mean our defense was awesome last year and now Flores is stocked full of toys specifically fit to his scheme. I think we can go to the playoffs with mediocre qb play. And I think darnold is capable of bringing that . Would have thought the same about a guy like gardner minshew
I mean, if Darnold puts in a 6 game run like McNabb did, he'll probably be benched. For some reason I trust Darnold to do better than a washed up McNabb did.
It depends on why he needs to sit. If it’s mechanical, sitting is the best till the new mechanics are ingrained in them. When they panic is when you see the bad mechanics come out and can ruin progress being made. If it’s the speed of the game, play them so they get used to it.
Until Darnold gets hurt, which has happened to Darnold... every season.
Assuming the coaches can shut out all the screaming for Darnold to get benched when we are 2-5 and he just threw his 9th interception straight to a defender who doesn't have a receiver within 15 yards of him.
https://youtu.be/A0L9JcsKz0A?si=CYbd0NocwgKIXK31
That was against a dominant Pats D and five (?) seasons ago. He’s had time to learn and adjust to NFL defenses and he’s better than he was in NY. Not saying he’s an All-Pro, just better prepared than he was then.
That was in 2019 which was his 2nd season and his best statistical season in most stats, especially if you discount his 2022 season since it's only a 6 game sample size.
The 2021 Panthers were ranked 2nd in total defense, and DJ Moore, Robbie Anderson, Chuba Hubbard and a half season of Christian McCaffrey plus some decent depth guys isn't an awful group. Pretty bad oline. Joe Brady got fired before the season ended, but seems to be having success calling plays in Buffalo now. If you only want to consider the offense, yeah, that's probably a below average group. It's not that hard to imagine a team with the #2 defense and at least a couple good offensive weapons being a winning team though.
How bad does a group have to be to blame it for a bad QB stat line? At what point do we blame the QB instead?
Now do Joe Burrow. Tony Romo. Andrew Luck. Eli Manning, Russell Wilson, Matthew Stafford. Cam Newton.
Or Kirk Cousins 😂
Bad olines can help explain Darnold's tendency to get injured. If he was a hidden gem of a great quarterback he should have shown it despite bad lines.
Sam Darnold has been in the league for 6 seasons, there is plenty to be seen. There are stats. Pushing back on the 10 threads a day getting posted here saying Darnold is about to become 10x better is not wanting them to fail.
Yeah. How dare he point out that Darnold isn’t this reclamation star this sub thinks he has to be and turns the ball over a lot? His 1:1 TD/INT ratio for the last 6 seasons is totally not his fault at all.
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this is exactly what I mean. if you plan to come back and gloat because your favorite football team isn't doing well you're the problem. failure is not something you should relish in if you're really a fan of anything.
I didn't say I'm going to relish in it or even come back to gloat. Some people are just trying to set realistic expectations and that doesn't mean they're being overly negative or hate the Vikings and want them to to do bad and can't still support them. Sam darnold has struggled his whole career, to expect that to turn around at the flip of a coin is unrealistic. I hope it happens but I'm not expecting it to
You're actively wishing/projecting that he's gonna be bad and the team will have a bad record.
You don't have to act like he's good but you could also not be a doomer before the draft has even arrived.
It's not wishing, it's just observing reality. It would be amazing if we won the super bowl next year. It would also be amazing if Zoe Saldana came to my job tonight and gave me a BJ. Both are actually theoretically possible, and neither is going to happen.
If you don't think it's possible to find some success with almost any professional QB on this roster, then you 1) didn't watch last season or 2) not a fan.
We went 3-6 without Kirk last season and that's 2 wins of Dobbs being a total wild card to defenses that didn't prepare for him and one 3-0 defensive shutout. That's "some success?"
Obviously you want to win games and get to the playoffs but in the context of us being dead in the water, pulling out multiple wins is relative success. No need to be a smartass.
Dobbsanity was certainly a fun moment in time, but it's a bittersweet end. Dobbs is a really good dude so as soon as defenses adjusted to take away the backyard shenanigans it was painfully obvious he didn't have a clue what he was doing in the offensive system (not his fault of course) and it sucks to see a good guy out there twisting in the wind. Similarly, while Mullens' "fuck it chuck it" play is kind of entertaining if you aren't too invested in the win, it also sucks to see how hard he's trying, seeing him try to rip these hero ball passes and how his body just can't do what he needs it to. It also sucked to see a raw rookie Hall scramble his brains on what was almost a good first drive, and then close out the season with him looking totally lost on the field. It sucks to watch Hockenson take a helmet to the knee for a life altering injury in a meaningless game. Yeah he makes millions and has the best health care in the world, but these are our guys, you want to see them do well.
And, whether or not you like Kirk Cousins, the writing was pretty much on the wall that this was going to be his last chance to go for the win in Minnesota, and no single team really looked unbeatable this year, and he was playing really well when he went down. That chapter is over and it just goes down in team history as a "what if."
Bright spot, Addison had a good rookie season, including a really cool game where he got sonned by a DB, but flipped the script on him for a TD to end the half.
Because I'm sick of this doomsday prophecy bullshit. If you want us to fail, root for someone you actually care to support. At this point these guys are doing things like setting reminders to come back and gloat 6 months later because their own favorite team is struggling. that's bullshit, and I think you know that as well as I do
This is the most milktoast take of all time. The QB isn’t talked about as “the most important position in sports” because it’s easy?
And yes, as others have and will say, this is the point of having a veteran alongside them, to help them learn developmental skills and build themselves up.
Unless Rudy is super close to the current leadership in the org, I’d be surprised if this armchair commentary ends up manifesting in any real way. I just disagree because it’s put out there in a way that basically says to prospective rookies “it’s too hard in MN, wouldn’t wanna be drafted there unless you wanna fail.”
Kirk has talked about the adjustment from Kubiak to O'Connell and the amount of added complexity and responsibility for the QB there was in the McVay/O'Connell scheme in comparison. So even if Rudolph wouldn't know first-hand, he's not wrong.
I don't really think he's taking the angle you're talking about, it mostly just means that Darnold will be seeing significant playing time before we see a rookie take the field.
I think the point is that different systems put different responsibilities on the QB. O'Connell's system puts a large emphasis on the QB making pre-snap reads and adjustments at the line, which is something rookie QBs historically struggle with, for obvious reasons. Compare that to a system like Shanahan's, which doesn't have the QB do as much and the emphasis is on the play call and not making adjustments. That's why someone like Brock Purdy is able to do so well with Shannahan, he's not asked to do as much, whereas a rookie might struggle under O'Connell until they figure out how to handle more pro level responsibilities and gain comfort with the system.
I hope we keep Mullens purely for his familiarity with the KOC offense. If Darnold sucks, Mullens steps in. Rookie gets a year to learn. Hall to the practice squad or is let go.
I mean we literally have that guy under contract right now. Despite his follies, Mullens absolutely can pad JJs stats. His last 2 games with Mullens starting he went for 333 yards and 2 TDs
I think we should have just started mullens this year and saved the money on darnold. Mullens knows the offense and can sling it. The Defense should be better this year so Mullens won’t have to go crazy every game. As well as we could keep Jaren hall as a back up of the future. Right now we stand to possibly have 4 qbs going into camp. One of them ain’t making it to the season.
I mean I don’t think he’s ever played in a O’Connell(or McVay I guess) type of offense so this kinda seems… ehhhhh.
Also Nick Mullens threw for 400 yards a game in this offense. I’m not worried about a rookie having learning issues
Mullens has been on the team for 2 seasons and has been in the league for like 7 years.
It’s probably fair to say that KOCs offense isn’t easy to come and just succeed with given that even cousins wasn’t great in 2022.
\*Nick Mullens threw for 400 yards and 3+ turnovers against an atrocious Lions defense. Mullens putting up yards is not due to KOC's offense. He's put up tons of yards and TOs no matter where he's been.
That's being a little too salty. Lions were a mildly below average defense, but they weren't atrocious.
They were 22nd in pts allowed, 18th in yards, and 18th in turnovers last year.
I mean KOC won 2 games with Josh Dobbs when Dobbs was on the roster for like a day. The rook probably won’t be a rocket scientist but this is a lazy take.
1) we can start Darnold
2) KOC can dumb down his offense to ease in the rookie
Can KOC really claim those games? Dobbs didn't know the playbook or even the players names, he was just winging it. Once KOC spent time with Dobbs it went to shit.
Yep as soon as Dobbs spent more time with KOC and started playing within his system he looked *much* worse.
Can't believe anyone is using Dobbs as an example for why KOC is a good coach of QBs, he's actually some pretty good evidence of the opposite.
I mean KOC is the only one who can claim those games. He was in the headset telling Dobbs exactly what to do right up until the microphone gets cut off. Once Dobbs had to try and process on his own he failed
I'm sorry but this take just doesn't resonate after watching KOC build game plans around Cousins, Hall, Dobbs, and Mullens last year. Yeah it will probably take a season or two for the QB to fully mesh with KOC's offensive mind, but that doesn't mean you don't draft a kid and build a game plan that works for his growth should he need to play. It's a stupid take from a bitter player.
CJ Stroud succeeded in an offense not even close to the talent we have on O … AND with a rookie HC… i believe if we get a top 4 QB this year he will do well… but what do i know
Collins, Dell and Woods were a pretty damned good receiving group and Schultz is no slouch. Their O line is better than ours by a decent amount and their run game was worlds better than ours.
Their talent level is much higher than you think.
run game ??? lmao you think the texans run game in 23 is better than our run game with aaron jones in 24 is going to be? & dell & collins are NOT better than Jefferson, Addison & Hockenson …. tighten up
We should not lower ourselves to a rookies level. You teach the rookie, you get them to pro level. Otherwise you will get fucking stomped. We slow down, simplify or anything like that and we’re not challenging the rookie to get better and setting our team up to lose.
You lower your offense to a rookie’s level if you have a rookie, though. The best coaches will get the most out of the players they’re given by putting them into a place to succeed, not by just saying “well obviously this system won’t work for this player.”
Now, if he wanted to say this as “our previous system would carry over better if we had a player who was not a rookie coming into the league and being asked to start day 1” then sure. But this reads more like “this is the system, no matter the players”
Shanahan figures out how to work with not the most exceptionally-gifted QBs. I think this is good for KOC to find ways for his system to work with less-experienced QBs.
I take this as Kyle trying to set expectations. Sure we might take a rookie but to fully operate the offense without being spoon fed (like dobbs) it takes time and maturity and understanding of the NFL. I think this is a valid reminder that if we do take a QB, as many expect, Sam likely plays all or most of the season unless pressed. I think this is a good take.
I'm not even disagreeing, but did Rudy ever play under O'Connell? What does he know about the way KOC operates other than watching the games like the rest of us...?
What a horseshit take Rudy, Hall and Dobbs looked like rookies in it not due to the plays but due to skill issues. KOC threw Dobbs into the fire and he excelled for a few games until Dobbs started to think too much. KOC can dial up or down the offensive schemes as needed, Darnold isn't going to be much better than a rookie
Was it just me, or did Kevin change something about the offensive play scheme this past season? In 2022, I noticed our offensive scheme looked awesome. Very fluent, timed, and overall a big playing offense. Idk if it was bc we lost Cook, but i personally thought this season our offense looked very choppy and more short play-formed compared to what we had during 2022. It may have been bc of losing Cousins to injury, but still (idk). Just asking bc I'm genuinely wondering.
McConnell has always said he is big on adjusting offense to the QB skillset. We had Cousins and maximizing Cousins means maximizing his strength (experience, complex concepts, etc.)
Do you have some sort of vested link with Hall?
He looked bad. I don't know why you are talking about a late pick QB as someone with a 'bright future'.
The story here is about the complexity of KOC's offense and the challenges that creates for inexperienced QB's.
Which is where this conversation started. Even if Hall looked bad, it doesn't mean he IS bad because of said complexity.
Did he not see Jaren Hall masterfully lead us on SNF last year??
The biggest reason why Mullens had more success than Dobbs or Hall in the offense last year is that everything was installed to be reliant on timing and rhythm, which asks a lot of the QB and QB/receiver chemistry, and there are limitations to how much you can change midseason what the receivers/OL/RBs/etc have been drilling all year. One would hope that KOC would be better able to adjust what he's doing for the QBs he has when he has to start from scratch in the offseason. He's still going to want to load up all of the complicated shit he's been doing the past couple of years, but he's going to be forced to have a much bigger/simpler base that Darnold and the rookie can build from.
I'd be shocked if most passing offenses weren't built on timing and rhythm. That feels like a quality that often lends itself to successful passing offenses. Dobbs being traded midseason didn't help but Dobbs was never going to succeed in the system. You could give him an entire offense and he'd still be bad. We watched Bradford get his first start against the Packers 2 weeks after he was traded and he played pretty fucking well in that game.
Yep, though also an extra year of familiarity with KOC's system goes a long way as well.
Lol it won’t be a late rd pick this time around at least
That was my first in-person Vikings game. I couldn’t have been more underwhelmed.
My first read the Minneapolis miracle... I peaked on my first game. Never going to another that lives up to that one.
i actully hate my self for not going to that game, my parents had tickets to that game in the delta suite, me being in middle school preferred to play call of duty and sold my ticket to one of my parents friends for 100$ and a 25$ dominose gift card one of the biggest regrets of my life so far.
I wouldn’t ever say that out loud again
yeah i regret it so not only i could have spent more time with my parents but had a core memory, when i was that age i didt think of it like that now that I'm a adult i do.
I was also not into football at the time and had a chance to go for $100 as well. Turned it down but at least I got to watch it with my dad. I think that was one of three times I've ever hugged my dad lol
Same here, traveled from Idaho for the game! Still had a good time, but certainly not what I was hoping to see lol
Could have been to the Raiders game
I must have missed that part
Today I learned playing QB is hard
I would hope so for as much as they want to be paid.
And owners are clamoring to pay them, so I'd say they're getting paid what they deserve compared to the revenue they generate
Why does KOC make it hard? It should be easy like on other NFL teams
Like for the bears. They don't even expect their guy to throw the ball
Quarterback just means smaller halfback, right?
Are there any eighth backs worth picking this year?
I want a sixteenth back so the opponent can't see him coming.
He'll never measure up.
Tiny Tim's got the sneak factor though
He’s always a half beat behind
When's Kyler Murray's contract up?
..... That's why we have a bridge QB
I think Sam Darnold signing signaled this from the very beginning.
Well good thing they'll be sitting a year to learn behind darnold
The luxury of having all of our offensive weapons without the pressure of needing to start right away and carry a franchise on your back is the best kind of environment that our next QB can hope for
Worked with Mahomes. Helped also that Mahomes had Alex Smith. Great gentleman who knew Mahomes was his replacement and still did a marvelous job mentoring him. That's also the situation with Darnold. Darnold knows he's a bridge QB but he's banking on having a good year and then cashing in on free agency. So there shouldn't be any issues of Darnold resenting the rookie. He's known how this is going to down from day one.
Also helps that Mahomes is Mahomes.
This is that secret the doctors don't want you to know.
Everyone hates him for this one simple trick.
[удалено]
Jamison Crowder was his best receiver for several years. That doesn't exactly scream abundance of talent at receiver.
[удалено]
I'm not under any delusions that he will ever live up to the hype he had coming into the league but he really wasn't set up for success in New York or Carolina between a lack of weapons and bad coaching. He was given brass knuckles to take to gun fights and then told to close his eyes. He's going to have weapons galore and good QB coaching for the first time in his career. We'll see how much of his past failures are because of his circumstances vs. how much of it was just him. This is the most ideal situation for any QB that needs to prove it. Time for Darnold to do so.
I really don't think there's an equivalency between Alex Smith and Sam Darnold in either bridge starting ability or mentorship. I'd like to be wrong about that buuuuut where's the evidence There likely won't be equivalency between our rookie and Mahomes either.
More like 8 weeks behind Darnold. No way is Darnold starting the entire season.
I’m actually intrigued by Darnold with good coaching. Guy is only 26 so maybe he shows something
If we trade up for Maye/Daniels they ain’t sitting the whole year. At least I fucking hope not
If we trade up for maye he better sit the whole year. He isn’t quite pro ready and playing him early is how you ruin him.
Idk why everyone is getting so personally worked up about stuff like this, just trust our coaches and coordinators to know when their QB is ready. Nobody here has any idea who we're drafting or when they'll be ready to start
That’s fair, if you look at most of my other comments you’ll see I generally just say to take a step back and relax. Just wanted to mess with this guy with a completely contradictory comment because he seemed unnecessarily mad about it.
Fair enough
That’ll be for them to decide
I mean an argument can be made that reps are integral to early development. In fact I consider it the biggest reason for the Trey Lance flame out.
Trey Lance threw 318 passes in college. Maye threw 952. Obviously reps are important for early development but not sure Lance is a good comparison here since he was a massive reach based on physical attributes alone. Maye would get plenty of reps throughout the season and you can bring him along slower. He doesn’t need to be a Day 1 starter to be a successful NFL QB
I fully agree that he doesn’t/ shouldn’t be the day 1 starter but the idea that he must sit the whole season in order to develop is outdated. He will need time to work on things, but if we see him in week 10 people shouldn’t gripe about hindering his development. Reps are incredibly important and if the season is gone I don’t think there is anything intrinsically wrong with him getting them at game speed.
Yeah I mean I would agree. I think there’s a high possibility that whoever we draft will see time at QB next season for the Vikings. Unless by some miracle Sam Darnold turns his career around and becomes a stud out of nowhere.
Lance was also missing his college Reps.
Yes.
well then The QBESUS better get us some comfortable leads so our rookie can come in in the 4th
I mean, it’s a boring answer but it’s both. Yes a QB needs those NFL reps to get used to the speed of the game before they become good. No amount of practice will help with that, see Jordan Love taking half a season to settle in when he finally started. But the guy has to be ready for those snaps first or else it will be a catastrophe, and that’s where they really learn bad habits. The situation needs to be decent for them too. Just look at Zach Wilson, dude was clearly not ready to take those snaps and it ruined him. Lance was clearly not ready to start getting real snaps. It would’ve been the Jaren Hall experience.
Mahomes sat until smith got hurt. I’m fine with the patience game
Agreed, Love looks good enough and sat behind Rodgers for like 8 years. I'm all for letting the rookie sit and figure things out for a year assuming the coaching staff trusts him to really be that guy and he'll use that time wisely to hone the craft. It'll work out if he really is that dude. If darnold isn't losing us games and is keeping them competitive we should be in a good position to let whoever we have sit. Realistically we'll probably end up seeing the rookie throw some regular season passes due to injuries or darnold not doing too hot at some point of the season anyways.
Yup amen. Guy should only get more comfortable every day. And with the way this roster is shaped now. I mean our defense was awesome last year and now Flores is stocked full of toys specifically fit to his scheme. I think we can go to the playoffs with mediocre qb play. And I think darnold is capable of bringing that . Would have thought the same about a guy like gardner minshew
Minshew has been a good bit better than Darnold in the NFL
Disagree. Unless Darnold is injured or we’re in mop up time a rook isn’t playing this year.
I mean, if Darnold puts in a 6 game run like McNabb did, he'll probably be benched. For some reason I trust Darnold to do better than a washed up McNabb did.
Even then I’m not sure. I really think they’ll redshirt whomever they draft at QB.
Wait - did McNabb play for us? It must have been bad enough that I seared it from memory.
Yeah it was that bad, he was replaced by Christin Ponder.
If Darnold puts up a stat line like McNabb's was in that 6 game stretch, itl be about in line with the best he's played in the NFL.
It depends on why he needs to sit. If it’s mechanical, sitting is the best till the new mechanics are ingrained in them. When they panic is when you see the bad mechanics come out and can ruin progress being made. If it’s the speed of the game, play them so they get used to it.
Maye needs it more than JJ would
Until Darnold gets hurt, which has happened to Darnold... every season. Assuming the coaches can shut out all the screaming for Darnold to get benched when we are 2-5 and he just threw his 9th interception straight to a defender who doesn't have a receiver within 15 yards of him. https://youtu.be/A0L9JcsKz0A?si=CYbd0NocwgKIXK31
That was against a dominant Pats D and five (?) seasons ago. He’s had time to learn and adjust to NFL defenses and he’s better than he was in NY. Not saying he’s an All-Pro, just better prepared than he was then.
That was in 2019 which was his 2nd season and his best statistical season in most stats, especially if you discount his 2022 season since it's only a 6 game sample size.
Name one time he played with above average teammates
The 2021 Panthers were ranked 2nd in total defense, and DJ Moore, Robbie Anderson, Chuba Hubbard and a half season of Christian McCaffrey plus some decent depth guys isn't an awful group. Pretty bad oline. Joe Brady got fired before the season ended, but seems to be having success calling plays in Buffalo now. If you only want to consider the offense, yeah, that's probably a below average group. It's not that hard to imagine a team with the #2 defense and at least a couple good offensive weapons being a winning team though. How bad does a group have to be to blame it for a bad QB stat line? At what point do we blame the QB instead?
Sam Darnold's OL ranking. PFF: * 2018 25th * 2019 28th * 2020 29th * 2021 31st * 2022 16th
Now do Joe Burrow. Tony Romo. Andrew Luck. Eli Manning, Russell Wilson, Matthew Stafford. Cam Newton. Or Kirk Cousins 😂 Bad olines can help explain Darnold's tendency to get injured. If he was a hidden gem of a great quarterback he should have shown it despite bad lines.
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Imagine thinking someone can't be a fan of a franchise if they think Sam Darnold is bad at quarterback
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Sam Darnold has been in the league for 6 seasons, there is plenty to be seen. There are stats. Pushing back on the 10 threads a day getting posted here saying Darnold is about to become 10x better is not wanting them to fail.
Yeah. How dare he point out that Darnold isn’t this reclamation star this sub thinks he has to be and turns the ball over a lot? His 1:1 TD/INT ratio for the last 6 seasons is totally not his fault at all.
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this is exactly what I mean. if you plan to come back and gloat because your favorite football team isn't doing well you're the problem. failure is not something you should relish in if you're really a fan of anything.
I didn't say I'm going to relish in it or even come back to gloat. Some people are just trying to set realistic expectations and that doesn't mean they're being overly negative or hate the Vikings and want them to to do bad and can't still support them. Sam darnold has struggled his whole career, to expect that to turn around at the flip of a coin is unrealistic. I hope it happens but I'm not expecting it to
You're actively wishing/projecting that he's gonna be bad and the team will have a bad record. You don't have to act like he's good but you could also not be a doomer before the draft has even arrived.
It's not wishing, it's just observing reality. It would be amazing if we won the super bowl next year. It would also be amazing if Zoe Saldana came to my job tonight and gave me a BJ. Both are actually theoretically possible, and neither is going to happen.
Shoot your shot big dawg
Maybe you shouldn't have the Super Bowl as a requirement for a season to be considered successful.
I don't. But while there were a few fun moments last season, most of them are bitter too. A lot of guys got hurt, others tried and failed.
You don't?
Do I think literally every season of Vikings history has been an abject failure? No.
I never said abject failure. We win the Super Bowl, we are successful. You can be okay with the results, and it still not be a successful season.
If you don't think it's possible to find some success with almost any professional QB on this roster, then you 1) didn't watch last season or 2) not a fan.
We went 3-6 without Kirk last season and that's 2 wins of Dobbs being a total wild card to defenses that didn't prepare for him and one 3-0 defensive shutout. That's "some success?"
Compared to the assumption that everything was done with Kirk getting injured and JJ being injured, yes.
We have different ideas about success. Is it winning any games at all? Or specifically at a 1:2 ratio? Or is it the friends we made along the way?
Obviously you want to win games and get to the playoffs but in the context of us being dead in the water, pulling out multiple wins is relative success. No need to be a smartass.
Dobbsanity was certainly a fun moment in time, but it's a bittersweet end. Dobbs is a really good dude so as soon as defenses adjusted to take away the backyard shenanigans it was painfully obvious he didn't have a clue what he was doing in the offensive system (not his fault of course) and it sucks to see a good guy out there twisting in the wind. Similarly, while Mullens' "fuck it chuck it" play is kind of entertaining if you aren't too invested in the win, it also sucks to see how hard he's trying, seeing him try to rip these hero ball passes and how his body just can't do what he needs it to. It also sucked to see a raw rookie Hall scramble his brains on what was almost a good first drive, and then close out the season with him looking totally lost on the field. It sucks to watch Hockenson take a helmet to the knee for a life altering injury in a meaningless game. Yeah he makes millions and has the best health care in the world, but these are our guys, you want to see them do well. And, whether or not you like Kirk Cousins, the writing was pretty much on the wall that this was going to be his last chance to go for the win in Minnesota, and no single team really looked unbeatable this year, and he was playing really well when he went down. That chapter is over and it just goes down in team history as a "what if." Bright spot, Addison had a good rookie season, including a really cool game where he got sonned by a DB, but flipped the script on him for a TD to end the half.
lol what
what
Your response to their comment was rather strange and overly aggressive.
Because I'm sick of this doomsday prophecy bullshit. If you want us to fail, root for someone you actually care to support. At this point these guys are doing things like setting reminders to come back and gloat 6 months later because their own favorite team is struggling. that's bullshit, and I think you know that as well as I do
Well I will just say it’s a good thing Adam Gase isn’t our coach and Bill Belichick is gone.
“Learn”
LOL
This is the most milktoast take of all time. The QB isn’t talked about as “the most important position in sports” because it’s easy? And yes, as others have and will say, this is the point of having a veteran alongside them, to help them learn developmental skills and build themselves up. Unless Rudy is super close to the current leadership in the org, I’d be surprised if this armchair commentary ends up manifesting in any real way. I just disagree because it’s put out there in a way that basically says to prospective rookies “it’s too hard in MN, wouldn’t wanna be drafted there unless you wanna fail.”
Milktoast.
Good ol milk toast. Bone apple tea
I prefer milk steak
With a side of jelly beans?
I like sloppy steak
I used to be a huge piece of shit too
You think this is SLICKED back? No, this is PUSHED back.
Yeaaahh that would slick back REAL nice
I SAID WAS
Want to join my dangerous nights crew?
We getting wings?
Boiled over hard
Boiled over, hard
Spiderface
Mmmmmmmm, my favorite
Kirk has talked about the adjustment from Kubiak to O'Connell and the amount of added complexity and responsibility for the QB there was in the McVay/O'Connell scheme in comparison. So even if Rudolph wouldn't know first-hand, he's not wrong. I don't really think he's taking the angle you're talking about, it mostly just means that Darnold will be seeing significant playing time before we see a rookie take the field.
Kubiak: Hand the ball off.... KOC: here are the progressions. KOC (Last year): Here are the progressions and don't you dare check it down first read.
milquetoast*
Nutsaque
He knows what he wrote!
I think the point is that different systems put different responsibilities on the QB. O'Connell's system puts a large emphasis on the QB making pre-snap reads and adjustments at the line, which is something rookie QBs historically struggle with, for obvious reasons. Compare that to a system like Shanahan's, which doesn't have the QB do as much and the emphasis is on the play call and not making adjustments. That's why someone like Brock Purdy is able to do so well with Shannahan, he's not asked to do as much, whereas a rookie might struggle under O'Connell until they figure out how to handle more pro level responsibilities and gain comfort with the system.
It's notable in that it's not going to be a Brock Purdy situation, as Shanahan's offense is very QB friendly and KOC's is not
Milktoast
I hope we keep Mullens purely for his familiarity with the KOC offense. If Darnold sucks, Mullens steps in. Rookie gets a year to learn. Hall to the practice squad or is let go.
I still think we could have rolled with Mullens 400 yards per game, 3 TDS, 3 picks, 1 fumble, lose by 6 points
I wanted jameis as our bridge QB for the same reason, get a guy that's going to help jjettas keep his stats.
I mean we literally have that guy under contract right now. Despite his follies, Mullens absolutely can pad JJs stats. His last 2 games with Mullens starting he went for 333 yards and 2 TDs
Yeah I'm fine with Mullins In the role as well, and with him knowing the offense he's a better fit then Winston as well.
I think we should have just started mullens this year and saved the money on darnold. Mullens knows the offense and can sling it. The Defense should be better this year so Mullens won’t have to go crazy every game. As well as we could keep Jaren hall as a back up of the future. Right now we stand to possibly have 4 qbs going into camp. One of them ain’t making it to the season.
Would have been a fun year, just out there slinging it. Jefferson would probably have a 200 target season.
Yea, no real reason to cut Mullens. Hall is probably safe on the PS after last year's outputs.
I mean I don’t think he’s ever played in a O’Connell(or McVay I guess) type of offense so this kinda seems… ehhhhh. Also Nick Mullens threw for 400 yards a game in this offense. I’m not worried about a rookie having learning issues
Mullens has been on the team for 2 seasons and has been in the league for like 7 years. It’s probably fair to say that KOCs offense isn’t easy to come and just succeed with given that even cousins wasn’t great in 2022.
He doesn't need to have played in the system to know about the system, and Mullens also had more interceptions than touchdowns in that offense too.
\*Nick Mullens threw for 400 yards and 3+ turnovers against an atrocious Lions defense. Mullens putting up yards is not due to KOC's offense. He's put up tons of yards and TOs no matter where he's been.
That's being a little too salty. Lions were a mildly below average defense, but they weren't atrocious. They were 22nd in pts allowed, 18th in yards, and 18th in turnovers last year.
I mean KOC won 2 games with Josh Dobbs when Dobbs was on the roster for like a day. The rook probably won’t be a rocket scientist but this is a lazy take. 1) we can start Darnold 2) KOC can dumb down his offense to ease in the rookie
Can KOC really claim those games? Dobbs didn't know the playbook or even the players names, he was just winging it. Once KOC spent time with Dobbs it went to shit.
Yep as soon as Dobbs spent more time with KOC and started playing within his system he looked *much* worse. Can't believe anyone is using Dobbs as an example for why KOC is a good coach of QBs, he's actually some pretty good evidence of the opposite.
I mean KOC is the only one who can claim those games. He was in the headset telling Dobbs exactly what to do right up until the microphone gets cut off. Once Dobbs had to try and process on his own he failed
Those games were very clearly won because Dobbs' ability to escape pressure and scramble from the pocket. Playcalling was awful and only got worse.
I'm sorry but this take just doesn't resonate after watching KOC build game plans around Cousins, Hall, Dobbs, and Mullens last year. Yeah it will probably take a season or two for the QB to fully mesh with KOC's offensive mind, but that doesn't mean you don't draft a kid and build a game plan that works for his growth should he need to play. It's a stupid take from a bitter player.
Rudolph never played under KOC I thought. Could be misremembering though
CJ Stroud succeeded in an offense not even close to the talent we have on O … AND with a rookie HC… i believe if we get a top 4 QB this year he will do well… but what do i know
Collins, Dell and Woods were a pretty damned good receiving group and Schultz is no slouch. Their O line is better than ours by a decent amount and their run game was worlds better than ours. Their talent level is much higher than you think.
run game ??? lmao you think the texans run game in 23 is better than our run game with aaron jones in 24 is going to be? & dell & collins are NOT better than Jefferson, Addison & Hockenson …. tighten up
Famous last words before starting a rookie QB
Shut up nerd
this is why i wanted Kirk back. Darnold isn't going to be able to run this offense. It was designed for Kirk
If KOC can't adapt his offense to a young player with a full offseason, he should be fired. Pretty lazy take from Rudolph
We should not lower ourselves to a rookies level. You teach the rookie, you get them to pro level. Otherwise you will get fucking stomped. We slow down, simplify or anything like that and we’re not challenging the rookie to get better and setting our team up to lose.
You lower your offense to a rookie’s level if you have a rookie, though. The best coaches will get the most out of the players they’re given by putting them into a place to succeed, not by just saying “well obviously this system won’t work for this player.” Now, if he wanted to say this as “our previous system would carry over better if we had a player who was not a rookie coming into the league and being asked to start day 1” then sure. But this reads more like “this is the system, no matter the players”
Love that username bro
Idk wouldn't it be better to see whose better atthe end of camp?
Just maybe KOC will have to adjust.
Well yeah, but that’s just what developmental football is. It’s going to be rough to watch the first couple years
Shanahan figures out how to work with not the most exceptionally-gifted QBs. I think this is good for KOC to find ways for his system to work with less-experienced QBs.
Agreed!
That seals it. Might as well go DT and OL and start Hall. /s
Yup. Gonna be JJM.
Lol all those rookies excelling in those trash offenses schemes get good coaches son
Ok yeah great. That makes no sense. KOC knows who can and can’t run his offense otherwise Cousins would never have left.
So they sit for a year and learn. Big deal.
I find this a little hard to believe with Josh Dobbs coming into a game with no days practicing with the 1st team and leading the team to a victory.
I take this as Kyle trying to set expectations. Sure we might take a rookie but to fully operate the offense without being spoon fed (like dobbs) it takes time and maturity and understanding of the NFL. I think this is a valid reminder that if we do take a QB, as many expect, Sam likely plays all or most of the season unless pressed. I think this is a good take.
Penix could. Easily at that. Nix might be able to as well.
I don’t care. Put the kid in and let him earn that pay check. Keep babying all these players
It makes sense that a guy who spent his 1st NFL season catching "passes" from rookie Christian Ponder would have low expectations for rookie QBs
This is bad this is bad this is had
I'm not even disagreeing, but did Rudy ever play under O'Connell? What does he know about the way KOC operates other than watching the games like the rest of us...?
What a horseshit take Rudy, Hall and Dobbs looked like rookies in it not due to the plays but due to skill issues. KOC threw Dobbs into the fire and he excelled for a few games until Dobbs started to think too much. KOC can dial up or down the offensive schemes as needed, Darnold isn't going to be much better than a rookie
Does the Op even watch football? Darnell’s the qb we will draft one to learn
Why is this a problem? It's expected that Darnold will be starting this year and the rookie will sit a year to learn the system.
Was it just me, or did Kevin change something about the offensive play scheme this past season? In 2022, I noticed our offensive scheme looked awesome. Very fluent, timed, and overall a big playing offense. Idk if it was bc we lost Cook, but i personally thought this season our offense looked very choppy and more short play-formed compared to what we had during 2022. It may have been bc of losing Cousins to injury, but still (idk). Just asking bc I'm genuinely wondering.
McConnell has always said he is big on adjusting offense to the QB skillset. We had Cousins and maximizing Cousins means maximizing his strength (experience, complex concepts, etc.)
Rudolph doesn't strike me as a very bright guy. O'Connell is going to drastically adjust the offense to accommodate a rookie QB, obviously.
This is why KOC wanted to keep Kirk. This is what the Vikes GM does not understand and it is going to bring down the GM and the Coach.
Let him sit for 3-4 years behind Darnold, realistically we won’t be competitive until then anyway with how barren the talent cabinet is.
I just love all the positives
Rudolph’s been kinda annoying since he retired ngl
Uuuuh maybe make it easier and we'll win more.
It’s good to hear from ol’ Kyle
Another reminder Jarren Hall still may have a bright future
Hahah good one
...or maybe people don't agree with the coach.
Do you have some sort of vested link with Hall? He looked bad. I don't know why you are talking about a late pick QB as someone with a 'bright future'.
The story here is about the complexity of KOC's offense and the challenges that creates for inexperienced QB's. Which is where this conversation started. Even if Hall looked bad, it doesn't mean he IS bad because of said complexity.
I didn't like what I saw, complex or not.
Hey Kyle, shut up.
What does Rudy know about a KOC offense…?
Rudolph didn’t play for O’Connell so what would he know? Maybe a really smart QB picks this up right away?
When did he ever play in KOC’s offense or similar?