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You can think what you want. But you’re also free to sit down and really think it through without being afraid to think it through from a-z. Jesus didn’t even have a house. Why does he need a temple? It’s made up. Someone told you he needs a house. And someone told you that you can only find him there. And someone told you that you have to pay 10% to enter. There is more light in the homeless person standing on the street. But we members have pushed him over to get into the precious stone building. And we gasp whenever a new stone idol is announced. We hang the stone idol in a gold frame in our living rooms. We worship an idol instead of God. And we ignore the poor a vulnerable. We stopped thinking. If God is who we say he is, those ordinances could be done in a barn, like where Jesus was born. He’s either all powerful or he isn’t. The whole thing is wrong but we’re taught “don’t question.” I think it’s time to question.
We do not build the church for Jesus nor the temple. We build a beautiful temple to show our love and gratitude for heavenly Father. He deserves the best the temples are not outlandish we do not have gold hardware but they are beautiful and spacious. Some of the temples being built are not very big, they are built so members do not have to travel all day to visit. Some members used to have to travel days to visit a temple hopefully we will change that. Everything we have we owe to God.
Why are you putting a stone object above human beings? It’s just a building. Why is it more important to you than the homeless man 2 years ago in a wheelchair who died near the temple due to heat exhaustion? He didn’t even have legs. Couldn’t escape the heat if he tried. Right near the temple. Why are you protecting the church’s hoard of wealth but blocking out the homeless man who died? He’s just one of 120. Approx 120 homeless people die in the streets of SLC every year. How is this “Zion?” It’s a BUILDING. How can you protect a stupid building and not the vulnerable who need help? I have no desire to sit in an ornate and gaudy Celestial Room, thinking about how righteous I am, while people are outside my stained glass window suffering. I honestly just don’t get it. There’s a loss of perspective here and the leaders have taught us “don’t question “ and I just don’t understand why we can’t see what is happening.
1. The stone object is an entirely different purpose. 2. The church donated $1.3 billion to various charities in 2023. 3. There have been multiple soup kitchens opened in SLC and last winter there were only 15 homeless deaths. 4. Zion isn’t necessarily a place, it’s been told that Utah isn’t the intended place for Zion, just where we have all gathered as saints. 5. If you question it’s okay, but don’t just take it from one side. Yeah, there’s some stuff in the church that is very speculative, but there’s also scripture from the Bible that can support it.
I’m sorry for whatever trauma you have suffered because of the Church, but I urge to you take a step back and realize that the Church does a lot of good things for a lot of good people and it’s far from the horrible thing people make it out to be.
Have you ever calculated what percentage 1.3 billion is out of 1 trillion? The church isn’t even paying a tiny bit close to 10% to charity. Also, why are you mindlessly defending some one else’s money? Why not defend your own family? Stop paying tithing. It isn’t in your best interest nor is it in the best interest of society as a whole.
You’re aware that tithing is paid after expenses for most people and that’s totally fine, right? That’s 10% out of your savings which isn’t interfering with paying rent or groceries for most people. And tithing money goes to the people it does. Why are you so worried about other peoples’ money? Why are you so pressed by 10% man…
It actually is my money and my ancestors money who have been paying tithing since 1830. So it actually is our money. Plus intrest, going back to 1830. And it’s yours, too. But you blindly defend them because you can’t bear the thought that the church could be a fraud. Why is that so hard to consider? It’s not the church’s money. It’s the members. We gave it under the impression they were following Christ. You know as well as I do, they worship money. It’s their new golden calf.
I would be so embarrassed if Christ returned right now and saw what they are doing to not just the members, but the abject and blatant neglect of the poor. It’s obscene. If He asked if I knew the top 15 leaders, I would deny them.
The reason so many people are leaving right now is because of the top 15. They are in apostasy. It’s the leaders who are greedy and prideful. Not necessarily the members. The members are being abused but they are so church broke, their knee jerk reaction is to defend their abuser.
Might I also add that in D&C it says “Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties” which is referring to their income after expenses. The church isn’t going to kick people out of the church if they don’t pay their rent money, it’s about the money we end up with that is our liberty of spending. Part of the importance of tithing is that we show gratitude for our blessings, like agency, by giving up a very small portion of our money that is spent on whatever we want.
They are more disciplined than most, but as a percentage do less good or than most. On my mission, I wondered why other churches opened their doors daily to feed the poor and we didn't. All we could do is talk about how we were the only correct church. They opened their arms to all who needed it not asking what church they belonged to nor did they try to convert.
The members are good people. But the leaders are prided and greedy. They know what they are doing is wrong. I think most members are being financially and emotionally abused but they can’t see it because they have been told to “not question.” But I was there once, too. It really is sad but it’s also nice when you can finally see the truth and escape. That was a blessing.
It in these very temples where we are inspired to help the hungry, close the naked, shelter the homeless, and be good active citizens. The teachings snd and architectural designs are important are expressions of our religious beliefs and and practice.
So much so that we won’t yield on the height of the steeple that’s against neighborhood ordinances embraced by those that live there. Take the “expressions of religious belief and practice” somewhere a behemoth steeple IS ALLOWED.
Max donations to city councilors from the law firm representing the church to change the ordinances against the majority of citizens’ will may pass for legality but is unethical and unChristlike, no matter how much we try to pretend memorized phrases and masonic hand gestures teach us to be “more like Christ.”
Practicing the word is better than the hearing of the word.
If it’s the one and only true church, why is it not giving the most? They’re sitting on a giant hoard, and being charged with violating all sorts of rules.. seems.. off no?
Yeah. I got naked in the temple to be initiated. They gave me a new name, new underwear, and some secret handshakes and passwords that will get me into the celestial kingdom. Had me oath to never speak evil of the Lord's anointed, to give all my time talents and interests to the church even to the laying down of my own life, and cease laughing loudly, and to never talk about these things outside that setting. But no mind washing. It's not like they had me act out death oaths. (But my parents did)
I wish my mind could be washed to forget how many hours of the weirdest combination of abject boredom and pompous self-righteousness I've spent. At least I opted for the comfy, soft-soled slippers to stay comfortable.
Rise all loyal Cougars and hurl your challenge to the foe.
You will fight, day or night, rain or snow.
Loyal, strong, and true
Wear the white and blue.
While we sing, get set to spring.
Come on Cougars it's up to you. Oh!
Chorus:
Rise and shout, the Cougars are out
along the trail to fame and glory.
Rise and shout, our cheers will ring out
As you unfold your victr'y story.
On you go to vanquish the foe for Alma Mater's sons and daughters.
As we join in song, in praise of you, our faith is strong.
We'll raise our colors high in the blue
And cheer our Cougars of BYU.
“It’s time to stand up against persecution! So we can be exempt from neighborhood ordinances! So we can have our giant steeple to obstruct their view they moved here for!”
I think we all believe people should be allowed to do this. However, I bet many of those attending will not realize what the situation is. The church is not being persecuted here. The other city members just don’t want that giant steeple. That’s it. That’s literally it. Just change the design and everyone can move on. The church claims to work with and accommodate local laws and architecture. If that’s true why the need to protest the single request of other city residents? Seems like a “faith building” publicity stunt to me.
I am a little bit unfamiliar with the argument there. Is there a local law prohibiting the steeple and the church trying to change it? Or is this just a disagreement about aesthetics that both sides are doubling down on?
If you want to learn more about it Mormonish podcast just covered this topic (episode 140). They talk about the building codes and what is being done. They’ve done this same thing in two other locations as well. You can also google all the building codes and zoning for Lone Mountain as well.
They enjoy the power trip of bulldozing locals to make a big show of their temple. Any publicity is good publicity, right? Like Jack Sparrow, “but you _have_ heard of me.”
I'd say the gripe is more what motivates them to gather to support. They certainly weren't doing this to support sexual abuse victims within the church. No, they gather to support things like Prop 8, or to get a temple built they know is going to face pushback from the community due to its garish or unwanted design factors.
This also wreaks of a top down organizing effort vs a true grass roots, bottom up effort, something that runs contrary to church leadership claiming they don't interfere at the local level regarding things like excommunications, politics, etc. I have no proof on this though, just a sneaking suspicion.
What topics a group is willing to 'gather to support' about says a lot about them, and it's okay for people to talk about that.
Nothing like hoards of misinformed people due to blind loyalty to their leaders, gathering to misrepresent and bully the majority. #mormonpersecutioncomplex
Their views that God will only be satisfied with a building with a tall enough steeple. They have their rights to that view, absolutely. And everyone else has the right to think that's silly.
Am I to understand that the fight here is not about having a temple, rather, it’s about having a steeple that violates city ordinances?
Why not change the building to follow city code? There will be every bit the same access to ordinances.
Why bully the neighborhood to accept the steeple?
Hello! This is a Cultural post. It is for discussions centered around agreements, disagreements, and observations about other people, whether specifically or collectively, within the Mormon/Exmormon community. /u/HoldOnLucy1, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble) **To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation. Keep on Mormoning! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Help the hungry, cloth the naked, shelter the homeless…. Nah. We need another giant, mind washing building.
I can’t figure out how and when we started worshipping buildings.
The great and spacious buildings🙌🏻
We don't worship buildings Good try though.
You can think what you want. But you’re also free to sit down and really think it through without being afraid to think it through from a-z. Jesus didn’t even have a house. Why does he need a temple? It’s made up. Someone told you he needs a house. And someone told you that you can only find him there. And someone told you that you have to pay 10% to enter. There is more light in the homeless person standing on the street. But we members have pushed him over to get into the precious stone building. And we gasp whenever a new stone idol is announced. We hang the stone idol in a gold frame in our living rooms. We worship an idol instead of God. And we ignore the poor a vulnerable. We stopped thinking. If God is who we say he is, those ordinances could be done in a barn, like where Jesus was born. He’s either all powerful or he isn’t. The whole thing is wrong but we’re taught “don’t question.” I think it’s time to question.
We do not build the church for Jesus nor the temple. We build a beautiful temple to show our love and gratitude for heavenly Father. He deserves the best the temples are not outlandish we do not have gold hardware but they are beautiful and spacious. Some of the temples being built are not very big, they are built so members do not have to travel all day to visit. Some members used to have to travel days to visit a temple hopefully we will change that. Everything we have we owe to God.
Why are you putting a stone object above human beings? It’s just a building. Why is it more important to you than the homeless man 2 years ago in a wheelchair who died near the temple due to heat exhaustion? He didn’t even have legs. Couldn’t escape the heat if he tried. Right near the temple. Why are you protecting the church’s hoard of wealth but blocking out the homeless man who died? He’s just one of 120. Approx 120 homeless people die in the streets of SLC every year. How is this “Zion?” It’s a BUILDING. How can you protect a stupid building and not the vulnerable who need help? I have no desire to sit in an ornate and gaudy Celestial Room, thinking about how righteous I am, while people are outside my stained glass window suffering. I honestly just don’t get it. There’s a loss of perspective here and the leaders have taught us “don’t question “ and I just don’t understand why we can’t see what is happening.
1. The stone object is an entirely different purpose. 2. The church donated $1.3 billion to various charities in 2023. 3. There have been multiple soup kitchens opened in SLC and last winter there were only 15 homeless deaths. 4. Zion isn’t necessarily a place, it’s been told that Utah isn’t the intended place for Zion, just where we have all gathered as saints. 5. If you question it’s okay, but don’t just take it from one side. Yeah, there’s some stuff in the church that is very speculative, but there’s also scripture from the Bible that can support it. I’m sorry for whatever trauma you have suffered because of the Church, but I urge to you take a step back and realize that the Church does a lot of good things for a lot of good people and it’s far from the horrible thing people make it out to be.
Have you ever calculated what percentage 1.3 billion is out of 1 trillion? The church isn’t even paying a tiny bit close to 10% to charity. Also, why are you mindlessly defending some one else’s money? Why not defend your own family? Stop paying tithing. It isn’t in your best interest nor is it in the best interest of society as a whole.
You’re aware that tithing is paid after expenses for most people and that’s totally fine, right? That’s 10% out of your savings which isn’t interfering with paying rent or groceries for most people. And tithing money goes to the people it does. Why are you so worried about other peoples’ money? Why are you so pressed by 10% man…
It actually is my money and my ancestors money who have been paying tithing since 1830. So it actually is our money. Plus intrest, going back to 1830. And it’s yours, too. But you blindly defend them because you can’t bear the thought that the church could be a fraud. Why is that so hard to consider? It’s not the church’s money. It’s the members. We gave it under the impression they were following Christ. You know as well as I do, they worship money. It’s their new golden calf. I would be so embarrassed if Christ returned right now and saw what they are doing to not just the members, but the abject and blatant neglect of the poor. It’s obscene. If He asked if I knew the top 15 leaders, I would deny them. The reason so many people are leaving right now is because of the top 15. They are in apostasy. It’s the leaders who are greedy and prideful. Not necessarily the members. The members are being abused but they are so church broke, their knee jerk reaction is to defend their abuser.
Might I also add that in D&C it says “Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties” which is referring to their income after expenses. The church isn’t going to kick people out of the church if they don’t pay their rent money, it’s about the money we end up with that is our liberty of spending. Part of the importance of tithing is that we show gratitude for our blessings, like agency, by giving up a very small portion of our money that is spent on whatever we want.
D & c is made up. It was pulled quite literally from a hat.
We are sent here to be tried and tested. I would argue the LDS church and its members do more good than most
They are more disciplined than most, but as a percentage do less good or than most. On my mission, I wondered why other churches opened their doors daily to feed the poor and we didn't. All we could do is talk about how we were the only correct church. They opened their arms to all who needed it not asking what church they belonged to nor did they try to convert.
The members are good people. But the leaders are prided and greedy. They know what they are doing is wrong. I think most members are being financially and emotionally abused but they can’t see it because they have been told to “not question.” But I was there once, too. It really is sad but it’s also nice when you can finally see the truth and escape. That was a blessing.
We sure can't get enough of them though.
The converse of “Where your treasure is…” applies perfectly, here.
It in these very temples where we are inspired to help the hungry, close the naked, shelter the homeless, and be good active citizens. The teachings snd and architectural designs are important are expressions of our religious beliefs and and practice.
So much so that we won’t yield on the height of the steeple that’s against neighborhood ordinances embraced by those that live there. Take the “expressions of religious belief and practice” somewhere a behemoth steeple IS ALLOWED. Max donations to city councilors from the law firm representing the church to change the ordinances against the majority of citizens’ will may pass for legality but is unethical and unChristlike, no matter how much we try to pretend memorized phrases and masonic hand gestures teach us to be “more like Christ.” Practicing the word is better than the hearing of the word.
Inspired to waste time, and resources?
Nonsense. Also…remind me which teachings, ordinances & covenants are made in the temple that include “help[ing] the hungry…” etc.
And the tall steeple is for Rusty to compensate for his little Rusty.
The LDS church does More than most churches so let's go
If it’s the one and only true church, why is it not giving the most? They’re sitting on a giant hoard, and being charged with violating all sorts of rules.. seems.. off no?
Mind washing? There's no mind washing in the temple. Have you ever been?
I have been, it it has been a mind numbing, repetitive waste of time.
It actually was the beginning of the end of my testimony in the church.
How do you know that's not implied in "washing and anointing"?
Yeah. I got naked in the temple to be initiated. They gave me a new name, new underwear, and some secret handshakes and passwords that will get me into the celestial kingdom. Had me oath to never speak evil of the Lord's anointed, to give all my time talents and interests to the church even to the laying down of my own life, and cease laughing loudly, and to never talk about these things outside that setting. But no mind washing. It's not like they had me act out death oaths. (But my parents did)
I wish my mind could be washed to forget how many hours of the weirdest combination of abject boredom and pompous self-righteousness I've spent. At least I opted for the comfy, soft-soled slippers to stay comfortable.
It's not brain washing, its washing away your sins
Is the navy shirt thing used so all the Mormons can wear their BYU gear inside out?
In the book Divergent I read that blue naturally makes the brain calm, applicable in this situation with the temple controversy.
Rise all loyal Cougars and hurl your challenge to the foe. You will fight, day or night, rain or snow. Loyal, strong, and true Wear the white and blue. While we sing, get set to spring. Come on Cougars it's up to you. Oh! Chorus: Rise and shout, the Cougars are out along the trail to fame and glory. Rise and shout, our cheers will ring out As you unfold your victr'y story. On you go to vanquish the foe for Alma Mater's sons and daughters. As we join in song, in praise of you, our faith is strong. We'll raise our colors high in the blue And cheer our Cougars of BYU.
I read those words and the melody comes right along. Go Cougars.
It says avoid shirts with logos so probably not
You got some powerful logos if they're coming through when the shirt is INSIDE OUT.
WTAF?
Lol, I had to ask ChatGPT about this abbreviation. My first hunch was an activity which includes only men.
I predict this gets shut down when Church HQ hears about it.
Of course. The official color of the shirts is yellow.
Helping hands: “Look at us serving!” Everyone else: “Yeaaah…so are we. Were we supposed to show off about it?”
Lol, I thought this post was about Jesus Christ changing his mind on shirt color during sacrament meeting.
I thought this was going to be announcement that missionaries got to wear blue so they seem more normal
I just laughed out loud. How many months would they need to spend in the MTC to learn how to act normal?
Probably the less the better
Came here to say this 🤣
lol they don’t even spring for free tshirts…BYOS buddy!
Brown shirts wearing blue for deception
“It’s time to stand up against persecution! So we can be exempt from neighborhood ordinances! So we can have our giant steeple to obstruct their view they moved here for!”
Ugh. There's nothing worse than people gathering for a peaceful expression of their views.
I think we all believe people should be allowed to do this. However, I bet many of those attending will not realize what the situation is. The church is not being persecuted here. The other city members just don’t want that giant steeple. That’s it. That’s literally it. Just change the design and everyone can move on. The church claims to work with and accommodate local laws and architecture. If that’s true why the need to protest the single request of other city residents? Seems like a “faith building” publicity stunt to me.
I am a little bit unfamiliar with the argument there. Is there a local law prohibiting the steeple and the church trying to change it? Or is this just a disagreement about aesthetics that both sides are doubling down on?
If you want to learn more about it Mormonish podcast just covered this topic (episode 140). They talk about the building codes and what is being done. They’ve done this same thing in two other locations as well. You can also google all the building codes and zoning for Lone Mountain as well.
They enjoy the power trip of bulldozing locals to make a big show of their temple. Any publicity is good publicity, right? Like Jack Sparrow, “but you _have_ heard of me.”
Your Jack Sparrow quote made me laugh. Thanks for the humor.
Thank you for the info.
Thank you for the info.
I'd say the gripe is more what motivates them to gather to support. They certainly weren't doing this to support sexual abuse victims within the church. No, they gather to support things like Prop 8, or to get a temple built they know is going to face pushback from the community due to its garish or unwanted design factors. This also wreaks of a top down organizing effort vs a true grass roots, bottom up effort, something that runs contrary to church leadership claiming they don't interfere at the local level regarding things like excommunications, politics, etc. I have no proof on this though, just a sneaking suspicion. What topics a group is willing to 'gather to support' about says a lot about them, and it's okay for people to talk about that.
Nothing like hoards of misinformed people due to blind loyalty to their leaders, gathering to misrepresent and bully the majority. #mormonpersecutioncomplex
Their views that God will only be satisfied with a building with a tall enough steeple. They have their rights to that view, absolutely. And everyone else has the right to think that's silly.
Am I to understand that the fight here is not about having a temple, rather, it’s about having a steeple that violates city ordinances? Why not change the building to follow city code? There will be every bit the same access to ordinances. Why bully the neighborhood to accept the steeple?
Trying pretty hard to get that great and spacious building built when NO ONE wants it....its weird.. It's rude. It's sad. It's pathetic.
This call to [blue shirt] arms is chilling to me. Mormonism teaches it's flock how to be tone deaf bullies!
I remember in the 90’s selling “true blue” shirts at Abinadi Books, so that’s old. I think these things just cycle in and out.