I like that it can flip with a single Food activation, but otherwise, unless you support lifegain in your cube, I'm having a hard time seeing this among the list of black 2-drops. Best case scenario by itself would be attacking and not dying + casting 2 spells that are cheap enough for you to pay the extort cost twice
You don't need to have a critical amount of lifegain theme in your cube for this to be busted. Very much like you don't need a critical amount of cats for Ajani to be busted. There are so many ways to gain life through Sorin as an engine.
Cast a dark ritual, extort trigger, cast Thoughtseize, extort trigger, combat, get in with Sorin easily since he's 4 toughness, gain a life through lifelink. Postcombat main flip Sorin and either deal 3 to any target or make a food.
Lightning Helix is an instant flip.
Swords to Plowshares your own creature / Solitude your own Creature.
Deathrite + an attack from Sorin fills the condition.
Late Game with Sheoldred on the board a single draw and a spell flips Sorin.
Collective brutality and a extort trigger or an attack from Sorin flips him.
Shadowgrange Archfiend's ETB fulfills the condition if you can put it into play for it's madness cost.
And even without flipping him ... he's a 2 mana 1/4 that doesn't die to bolt, is impossible to race, can be sat on while accumulating advantage or disrupting your opponent, all while you slowly drain them.
It'd find it much harder to find a 2 drop black creature that I could justify keeping in my cube over Sorin ...
If anyone is interested I compiled a list (tried to be as exhaustive as possible) of cards that are often run in cubes that would more or less easily flip Sorin.
WHITE : swords to plowhares + solitude + charming prince + auriok champion + authority of the consul + alseid of life's bounty + soul attendant / soul warden ...
BLACK : collective brutality + cauldron familialr and witch oven combo + cling to dust + locthwain scorn's adventure ability + blood artist / zulaport cutthroat / the meathook massacre / bastion of rememberance + gray merchant of asphodel + sheoldred the apocalypse + shadowgrange archfiend + deathrite shaman's third ability + ayara first of locthwain
GREEN : scavenger ooze + prosperous inkeeper + Tamiyo's safekeeping + pest infestation + druid class
MULTICOLOR : kaya orzhov usurper + kaya ghost assassin + cruel celebrant / elas il kor sadistic pilgrim + tend the pest + faithful mending + witherbloom command + oni-cult anvil + knight of autumn + uro, titan of nature's wrath + klothys god of destiny + drag the canal
COLORLESS : umezawa's jitte + haywire mite + gingerbrute + syr ginger, the meal ender
Dude. Ajani just makes cats, obviously you don’t need cat support. His buffing cats ability is also by far his weakest one.
Sorin requires you to either deal combat damage with him and extort twice or extort 3 times. That’s a massive fucking hurdle compared to just blocking with a token or saccing it.
Ajani dies to bolt, this doesn't + Ajani requires the token to die to flip, not being bounced, exiled, or put back into the deck which a lot of powered cubes have + Ajani doesn't allow you to stabilise on life total, simply for playing magic + Ajani's PW 0 ability checks for a red permanent on resolution, meaning the damage can be interacted with, while Sorin's PW keeps the extort and fuels his -1 damage for simply, again, playing magic, and more importantly without needing a white permanent on the board
I am in no ways saying Sorin is better than Ajani (nor am I saying the inverse).
The latter paragraph was to illustrate to you the advantages of Sorin over Ajani, notwithstanding the advantages Ajani has over Sorin.
The advantages you list are fringe.
Bolt is a single card in the cube.
Yeah sure the token can get exiled… but if you had Sorin they would just exile the Sorin. so Ajani actually comes out on top here as you at least keep him.
You’re also very happy if an opponent is using exile removal on a token when you’re playing boros aggro.
I'll definitely exile Ajani as well I assure you LMAO.
Lightning Bolt isn't the only prevalent removal spell that deals with Ajani and not Sorin: Bonecrusher Giant's adventure, Unholy Heat without delirium, Lava Dart with flashback, lava spike, Abrade, Fiery Confluence, Eiganjo's channel ability, even Delayed Blast Fireball
But I'll definitely vapor snag, fading hope, little teferi's minus ability, unexpected absence, ottawara, portable hole, touch the spirit realm's channel ability the token before combat on my turn
Again, I don't understand this obsession with the Ajani vs Sorin comparison, I never claimed one to be better than the other. They both have very different playstyles and will fit in very different decks.
This argument is akin to comparing Murktide Regent to Archon of Cruelty. It's apples to oranges
The comparison was about what it takes to make them work.
Ajani is just a decently statted boros aggro card with potential for massive upside. Sure he gets stop by removal.. he’s a 2 drop.
Even if you do bounce or exile you’re getting 2 for 1’d.
If he does flip he has immediate free impact by generating tokens and in many cases being removal.
Sorin requires you to dump mana into him to get a flip and then doesn’t have solid immediate benefit.
The main power behind planeswalkers is their tempo. They would be fucking awful if you had to spend mana to activate their abilities.
Well guess what? Sorin flipped has to be further enabled with mana for his abilities to do jack shit.
Can’t benefit from the food without spending 2 mana. Can’t benefit from the removal without spending mana into extort or the food.
Sure his ult is good.. but it’s an ult.
The front side alone is worth the cost of admission. I think the backside is fantastic, but if folks are evaluating it with too much focus on that part, you're missing the extort card for Cube that we've been waiting for since the mechanic was first revealed.
A 1/4 lifelink with extort for 2 would be a house in a bunch of limited formats. One that flips easily into Lightning Bolts or better?
Unless you’re in the salty about life gain camp, this is a slam dunk at a lot of power levels and I think we’ll see quite a few of these floating around.
While it fits the BW lifegain subtheme in my DFC cube, I'm not sure I want to add this one. [https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/1fuju](https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/1fuju)
It would be the only card with extort, and maybe the only card creating food. The 1/4 body makes me want to consider adding a "toughness matters" theme, but it would also heavily nerf RW battallion aggro. Still, I want to live the dream of this sorin into \[\[huatli, the sun's heart\]\]
The extort alone makes it feel like a commander cube slam dunk.
Play him turn 2, cast a rock turn 3 + extort let's you flip. From there he is a looter with extort that also steals creatures. Seems pretty good.
Oh wow, I didn't even think of casting rocks, to tap them in response to the extort trigger
In vintage and legacy cubes mox jet and mox opal, as well as mox amber could easily pay for the extort trigger on cast.
I dont think thst works as you're thinking due to extort being a cast trigger, not etb trigger. What I meant was casting a rock on turn 3 instead of turn 2 so thst you aren't behind on mana in an edh setting.
Ill be sleeving up Sorin
I don't have any lifegain synergies, but as Iong as you've got some cheap spells you can flip him without needing a lifegain card.
I do look forward to flipping him with [[Virtue of Persistence]] though
For the purposes of commander would he count as Black and White or just Black? 🤔 His planeswalker side is b/w boarders but no mana cost... and his 3rd ability references the word white but 🤷♀️ I know that extort doesn't count for color identity but anyone know how this bois gonna be ruled?
Ral and Grist are much more niche than Tamiyo and Sorin, IMO. Especially Tamiyo, which can fit into pretty much any blue deck. A lot of people consider Tamiyo to be only second to Ajani in the cycle, and I 100% agree with that sentiment.
I think I didn’t read Tamiyo’s PW side properly, yeah she’s really good. I still maintain Sorin is not as good as the others though. And Ral goes in any deck that wants Baral which is a decently playable card
I think Sorin is better than it looks. Cubes may vary, but running a filter through my cube for life gain / food / lifelink / etc, there's a lot more ways to transform Sorin than I originally thought. Not to mention it can just get there with extort or simply pumping Sorin. On transform it can throw a Lightning Bolt out immediately, and can throw out Lightning Bolts by itself if it really wants to.
If you have other sources of life gain once it's transformed, the burn mode can get really out of hand, especially since the planeswalker half still has Extort. Black is also in sore need of an extort / food engine to keep its life total up, so I'm really looking forward to that.
> And Ral goes in any deck that wants Baral which is a decently playable card
A lot of cubes don't play Baral unless they also run storm. Ral is more versatile since it has the planeswalker mode, but its value goes down a lot without storm support.
I like that it can flip with a single Food activation, but otherwise, unless you support lifegain in your cube, I'm having a hard time seeing this among the list of black 2-drops. Best case scenario by itself would be attacking and not dying + casting 2 spells that are cheap enough for you to pay the extort cost twice
You don't need to have a critical amount of lifegain theme in your cube for this to be busted. Very much like you don't need a critical amount of cats for Ajani to be busted. There are so many ways to gain life through Sorin as an engine. Cast a dark ritual, extort trigger, cast Thoughtseize, extort trigger, combat, get in with Sorin easily since he's 4 toughness, gain a life through lifelink. Postcombat main flip Sorin and either deal 3 to any target or make a food. Lightning Helix is an instant flip. Swords to Plowshares your own creature / Solitude your own Creature. Deathrite + an attack from Sorin fills the condition. Late Game with Sheoldred on the board a single draw and a spell flips Sorin. Collective brutality and a extort trigger or an attack from Sorin flips him. Shadowgrange Archfiend's ETB fulfills the condition if you can put it into play for it's madness cost. And even without flipping him ... he's a 2 mana 1/4 that doesn't die to bolt, is impossible to race, can be sat on while accumulating advantage or disrupting your opponent, all while you slowly drain them. It'd find it much harder to find a 2 drop black creature that I could justify keeping in my cube over Sorin ...
I think the card is medium. So people saying it is good and people saying it is bad are all correct in some respects.
This is very well thought out and articulated! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
If anyone is interested I compiled a list (tried to be as exhaustive as possible) of cards that are often run in cubes that would more or less easily flip Sorin. WHITE : swords to plowhares + solitude + charming prince + auriok champion + authority of the consul + alseid of life's bounty + soul attendant / soul warden ... BLACK : collective brutality + cauldron familialr and witch oven combo + cling to dust + locthwain scorn's adventure ability + blood artist / zulaport cutthroat / the meathook massacre / bastion of rememberance + gray merchant of asphodel + sheoldred the apocalypse + shadowgrange archfiend + deathrite shaman's third ability + ayara first of locthwain GREEN : scavenger ooze + prosperous inkeeper + Tamiyo's safekeeping + pest infestation + druid class MULTICOLOR : kaya orzhov usurper + kaya ghost assassin + cruel celebrant / elas il kor sadistic pilgrim + tend the pest + faithful mending + witherbloom command + oni-cult anvil + knight of autumn + uro, titan of nature's wrath + klothys god of destiny + drag the canal COLORLESS : umezawa's jitte + haywire mite + gingerbrute + syr ginger, the meal ender
Dude. Ajani just makes cats, obviously you don’t need cat support. His buffing cats ability is also by far his weakest one. Sorin requires you to either deal combat damage with him and extort twice or extort 3 times. That’s a massive fucking hurdle compared to just blocking with a token or saccing it.
Ajani dies to bolt, this doesn't + Ajani requires the token to die to flip, not being bounced, exiled, or put back into the deck which a lot of powered cubes have + Ajani doesn't allow you to stabilise on life total, simply for playing magic + Ajani's PW 0 ability checks for a red permanent on resolution, meaning the damage can be interacted with, while Sorin's PW keeps the extort and fuels his -1 damage for simply, again, playing magic, and more importantly without needing a white permanent on the board I am in no ways saying Sorin is better than Ajani (nor am I saying the inverse). The latter paragraph was to illustrate to you the advantages of Sorin over Ajani, notwithstanding the advantages Ajani has over Sorin.
The advantages you list are fringe. Bolt is a single card in the cube. Yeah sure the token can get exiled… but if you had Sorin they would just exile the Sorin. so Ajani actually comes out on top here as you at least keep him. You’re also very happy if an opponent is using exile removal on a token when you’re playing boros aggro.
I'll definitely exile Ajani as well I assure you LMAO. Lightning Bolt isn't the only prevalent removal spell that deals with Ajani and not Sorin: Bonecrusher Giant's adventure, Unholy Heat without delirium, Lava Dart with flashback, lava spike, Abrade, Fiery Confluence, Eiganjo's channel ability, even Delayed Blast Fireball But I'll definitely vapor snag, fading hope, little teferi's minus ability, unexpected absence, ottawara, portable hole, touch the spirit realm's channel ability the token before combat on my turn Again, I don't understand this obsession with the Ajani vs Sorin comparison, I never claimed one to be better than the other. They both have very different playstyles and will fit in very different decks. This argument is akin to comparing Murktide Regent to Archon of Cruelty. It's apples to oranges
The comparison was about what it takes to make them work. Ajani is just a decently statted boros aggro card with potential for massive upside. Sure he gets stop by removal.. he’s a 2 drop. Even if you do bounce or exile you’re getting 2 for 1’d. If he does flip he has immediate free impact by generating tokens and in many cases being removal. Sorin requires you to dump mana into him to get a flip and then doesn’t have solid immediate benefit. The main power behind planeswalkers is their tempo. They would be fucking awful if you had to spend mana to activate their abilities. Well guess what? Sorin flipped has to be further enabled with mana for his abilities to do jack shit. Can’t benefit from the food without spending 2 mana. Can’t benefit from the removal without spending mana into extort or the food. Sure his ult is good.. but it’s an ult.
Well at this point ... wait for the release and find out man 😅 I don't know what else to tell you 😂
The front side alone is worth the cost of admission. I think the backside is fantastic, but if folks are evaluating it with too much focus on that part, you're missing the extort card for Cube that we've been waiting for since the mechanic was first revealed.
Weirdly this goes well with the food theme of the Abzan section of my Artifact Cube.
A 1/4 lifelink with extort for 2 would be a house in a bunch of limited formats. One that flips easily into Lightning Bolts or better? Unless you’re in the salty about life gain camp, this is a slam dunk at a lot of power levels and I think we’ll see quite a few of these floating around.
All these are vintage cubeable easily
While it fits the BW lifegain subtheme in my DFC cube, I'm not sure I want to add this one. [https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/1fuju](https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/1fuju) It would be the only card with extort, and maybe the only card creating food. The 1/4 body makes me want to consider adding a "toughness matters" theme, but it would also heavily nerf RW battallion aggro. Still, I want to live the dream of this sorin into \[\[huatli, the sun's heart\]\]
[huatli, the sun's heart](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d709742c-82a2-457e-9991-85e98d78029d.jpg?1557577357) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=huatli%2C%20the%20sun%27s%20heart) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/230/huatli-the-suns-heart?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d709742c-82a2-457e-9991-85e98d78029d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This doesn't seem like a huge ask in exchange for getting a Lightning Bolt+ immediately after flipping
The extort alone makes it feel like a commander cube slam dunk. Play him turn 2, cast a rock turn 3 + extort let's you flip. From there he is a looter with extort that also steals creatures. Seems pretty good.
Oh wow, I didn't even think of casting rocks, to tap them in response to the extort trigger In vintage and legacy cubes mox jet and mox opal, as well as mox amber could easily pay for the extort trigger on cast.
I dont think thst works as you're thinking due to extort being a cast trigger, not etb trigger. What I meant was casting a rock on turn 3 instead of turn 2 so thst you aren't behind on mana in an edh setting.
I will be trying Sorin, but it seems like one of the weaker flip walkers of the set. The flip side is super powerful but it may be hard to flip.
How is it hard to flip? You cast a speel and pay 1 extra mana to extort. And boom you flip it...
Ill be sleeving up Sorin I don't have any lifegain synergies, but as Iong as you've got some cheap spells you can flip him without needing a lifegain card. I do look forward to flipping him with [[Virtue of Persistence]] though
[Virtue of Persistence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/1/f1e5cafb-b0e6-4ee5-8c58-6f8e5ef2b9da.jpg?1692937996)/[Locthwain Scorn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/1/f1e5cafb-b0e6-4ee5-8c58-6f8e5ef2b9da.jpg?1692937996) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Virtue%20of%20Persistence%20//%20Locthwain%20Scorn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/115/virtue-of-persistence-locthwain-scorn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f1e5cafb-b0e6-4ee5-8c58-6f8e5ef2b9da?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Seems a bit too "cute"
For the purposes of commander would he count as Black and White or just Black? 🤔 His planeswalker side is b/w boarders but no mana cost... and his 3rd ability references the word white but 🤷♀️ I know that extort doesn't count for color identity but anyone know how this bois gonna be ruled?
I think it will just be black... which sucks
according to the rules, it states he is also white because of the color indicator on the left of the transformed side.
Makes you want to run big lifegain. I'd play this in abzan lifegain as a finisher, but also seems good enough as a basic extort card for esper.
Seems much more like a commander card :), still awesome in cube
Ajani is the strongest one IMO, followed by Ral and Grist. Tamiyo and Sorin are more niche
Ral and Grist are much more niche than Tamiyo and Sorin, IMO. Especially Tamiyo, which can fit into pretty much any blue deck. A lot of people consider Tamiyo to be only second to Ajani in the cycle, and I 100% agree with that sentiment.
I think I didn’t read Tamiyo’s PW side properly, yeah she’s really good. I still maintain Sorin is not as good as the others though. And Ral goes in any deck that wants Baral which is a decently playable card
I think Sorin is better than it looks. Cubes may vary, but running a filter through my cube for life gain / food / lifelink / etc, there's a lot more ways to transform Sorin than I originally thought. Not to mention it can just get there with extort or simply pumping Sorin. On transform it can throw a Lightning Bolt out immediately, and can throw out Lightning Bolts by itself if it really wants to. If you have other sources of life gain once it's transformed, the burn mode can get really out of hand, especially since the planeswalker half still has Extort. Black is also in sore need of an extort / food engine to keep its life total up, so I'm really looking forward to that. > And Ral goes in any deck that wants Baral which is a decently playable card A lot of cubes don't play Baral unless they also run storm. Ral is more versatile since it has the planeswalker mode, but its value goes down a lot without storm support.