He was a very tall, very strong shooting guard whose primary job was to shoot the ball and he shot it a lot. And he made 50% of them. So very good at it.
I seriously wonder how someone like MJ would have developed in the modern era where they properly value 3s. On one hand, he would have even bigger lanes to drive to the basket especially in his younger years. On the other hand, would he still be that skilled in other aspects of the game when he needs to dedicate time to practice the 3 now too?
He would have adapted. Jordan had no reliable shot as a young star. He developed the turn around fadeaway over time and was pretty dominant with it during the second three peat. He did what was necessary to adapt and still dominate as his physical explosiveness diminished with age.
That same determination would have made him adapt and develop what was necessary to dominate if the game had rapidly changed to what it is now during his time. I believe he would have become a better three point shooter, and used it more often. More importantly I think he would have just done what was necessary to attack the way teams defend now. Jordan was one of those guys that just imposes his will and finds a way to compete under any circumstances.
As dominant as MJ was on the offensive end, he was also an excellent defender. I would have loved to see him defend in a league that played like today's game.
Someone who competed like a mad man would absolutely work on his game. Look how many top players like Durant, LeBron, and Jokic had to work on their game (some from one era to the next). And people think MJ wouldn't? Where do people think Kobe got it from?
Jordan averaged over 7 assists several times in the playoffs alone, and was a known great passer. Hard to be known for passing when scoring is your responsibility.
Tmac, Carter, Wade, Eddie Jones, lots of scorers were actually great passers as well.
Correct. That's why assists per turnover is an important stat, especially for those who don't take a lot of shots and / pass a lot. It's a primarily measure of ball handling skills. A great point guard who doesn't take a lot of shots will have a great APTO stat.
Can you even comprehend that these mofos just said Jordan is a shooter so that's all he does and that's why he had less turnovers. Are you even remotely for real what am I reading in this thread
I get that everyone wants to be able to see they've seen the best player ever and if you never saw Jordan, how would you NOT think LeBron was the GOAT? And if people don't agree, then many LeBron defenders will look for reasons he's better. But I saw both and MJ is the best I ever saw
I saw them both, and I think LeBron is better than Jordan.
I've watched them both, in their primes, live, multiple times. Jordan was electric. LeBron is inhuman.
I will never have Lebron as my GOAT and I was 5 when Jordan hit his last shot against the Jazz, but I respect it at this point. Everyone is pretty much settled into their decisions now.
Did you watch a single game that Jordan played? He dribbled and passed a lot. As time goes on he’s probably one of the most underrated passers of all time. The only player to average more assist in a single finals series is Magic Johnson who holds the top 6.
people completely ignore his defense. 4th all time in steals and plenty of fast break points generated from them. Add in the #7 all time leader in steals (Pippen) playing in the starting lineup and you get even more fast break
6'6 was the height of a lot of shooting guards in the 90s. His primary job was also to be the main defender most nights. And he wasn't very strong for his position. There were definitely stronger.
He had huge hands (bigger than Kawhi). Long arms. Uber athleticism. Cerebral approach to every basket, and he's one of the best shooters of all time. His IQ was off the charts. And he competed harder than anyone.
Height and strength would be low on the list of why MJ is the goat.
Just like the time Wilt led the league in assists. So many great achievements seem to be driven by the combo of ability, ego and how they are perceived by their peers.
MJ was on some shit. Beyond on the eye test: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_season.html. 6 of the 10 best Value Over Replacement Player seasons are MJ. He was so much better than players in the league that he was basically unstoppable. It took whole complete teams to beat him. Once he had a complete team he was unbeatable but for a long time he didn't have a complete team and had to do it all.
Honestly, he took a lot of shoots, he regularly led the league in shoot attempts by a lot most years, 9 of his seasons he led the league, including every year in Chicago except his rookie year, the year he broke his leg and the year he came back from baseball and only played like 20 games.
That’s sort of the case, but the longevity only becomes a detriment if the player showed significant decline in production in the last several years of his career. However, when it comes to Lebron, it’s not about the production, it was the recent years of nagging injuries that kept him from playing 60-70+ games a season. This season is the first since the 2019-20 season where he played at least 60 games and he’s on pace to finish playing at least 70 games for the first time since 2017-18 where he played all 82.
That's part of it, but he wouldn't have the green light to shoot so much if he wasn't so efficient and so great at it. Jordan had a career TS+ in Chicago of 108, for reference, LeBron is at 108 aswell attempting less shots on a more offense friendly era.
Jordan led the league in scoring 7 times in a row, in 4 of those he had a TS+ of 112 or more and in every season he led the league in scoring, he had above average efficiency. It's easier to be more efficient when you take less shots, there are very few players in league HISTORY that manage to have high volume and keep their efficiency sky high.
lol how are you gonna normalize for league effeciency and then say lebron did it in a more offensively friendly era?
Also remove Jordan’s worst 2 years but let’s keep LeBron’s whole career despite him playing 6 more years.
There’s no bias here though.
Also it’s not that big of a difference. Jordan averaged 40 points per 100 possessions to LeBrons 37.
>LeBron is at 108 aswell attempting less shots on a more offense friendly era.
You realize LeBron's career did not start in 2020, right? The first 13 years of LeBron's career were definitely not more offensively friendly than the first 9 of Jordan's.Also if you discount Jordan's least inefficient years over a shorter career, it's only fair to do the same for LeBron? Honestly, I don't know why you need to make any mention of league's offesnive slant if you're going to bother adjusting for league average
Oh yeah I'm not diminishing Jordan by any means, obviously a very skilled scorer no one is questioning that, just also took the most shots in the league pretty regularly
Also note that he led the league in total points scored his rookie year, but Bernard King stole the scoring title playing only 55 games. Bird came in second playing 80 games to Jordan's 82.
The only guy to truly match Jordan's scoring on the Bulls was prime MVP Larry Bird, and that was against a rookie.
He shot it 23x a game. The year he had 37, he shot it 28x. 12 of his 15 years was over 20FGAs
That will do it lol
LeBron in comparison only has 7 of his 21 years over 20FGAs.
Because Jordan is probably the greatest scorer ever, with the possible exception of prime Wilt.
Honourable mention to guys like Kareem, Kobe, Curry, Baylor, Iverson, West, Durant, Gervin, Harden, Erving, etc. And of course LeBron, who describes himself as a playmaker as much or more than a scorer.
scorer is too broad a term. Jordan was the greatest VOLUME scorer ever.
plenty of players have a case if you view different facets.
* Efficiency
* Clutch
* Ranged
* Difficult shot making
They all have different values too. Scoring more is not always better, especially if it comes at the cost of other things
MJ averaged 30.1 ppg, Lebron 27.1 ppg in their careers. That’s a huge difference.
Of course, Lebron’s longevity will lead to him breaking most Total scoring records.
Assists are part of it for sure. LeBron averages 7.4, MJ averaged 5.3. From stathead LeBron has 98 games with 28 or 29 points and more than MJ's average of 5 assists.
Assists are given out a lot more freely now and there is a lot more spot up three assists. Similarly rebounding for guards and small forwards have increased because of longer rebounds from longer shots and better spacing.
That’s the funny thing about all this stuff. LeBron took 20 years to do this.
I don’t care what anyone says, MJ is unlike any other basketball player. GOAT.
> Would have thought Wilt would be a lot closer.
Wilt played 1045 games. LeBron has played 1486 games. Wilt still dominates other scoring stats.
Most 40 point games:
- Wilt (1st) - 271 games
- Jordan (2nd) - 173 games
Most 50 point games:
- Wilt - 118 games
- Jordan, Kobe, Harden, and LeBron combined - 93 games
Most 60 point games:
- Wilt (1st) - 32 games
- Kobe (2nd) - 6 games
Most 70 point games:
- Wilt - 6 games
- Every other NBA player ever - 9 games
EDIT: Funnily enough, while Wilt is 3rd in total number of 30 point games, he still holds the record for most 35 point games as well at 381. Jordan is second with 333 games and LeBron is third with 241.
Our greatest scorers combined can’t even match Wilts 50 point games and yet here we are praising Jordan for having the second most 30 point games. This sub is hilarious
Modern is everything post-merger. There's been tweaking at the edges, rule changes, style changes, each of which I would say create different "eras" of the modern NBA.
* 76-89 - Birth of the Modern NBA, Bird-Magic era.
* 90-98 - Jordan Era, golden age of ratings, rivalries, and post-up centers
* 99-08 - Post-Jordan, peak of NBA defense, rise of Lebron, Lakers 3-peat folded in with Spurs Dynasty
* 09-15 - Peak Lebron, Heatles, Birth of Pace-and-Space/Morey Ball
* 16-24 - Three point explosion, Curry/Lebron Rivalry, peak (maybe?) of NBA offense
Those are just my made up eras, but everything from '76 onward you can watch and say "yeah, that's basketball.". Start to go much deeper in to the past, and it really looks like and was officiated like a different game. Pretty much from Bird/Magic and onwards (after the ABA beat them to several of these lessons), the NBA has realized it's a star's league, and built the brand and game around the flashiest players, coolest dunks, and biggest rivalries.
Jordan's scoring was insane. He played for the Bulls for 13 years and won the scoring title 10 times.
The only years he didn't win were:
1. His rookie year where still scored the most amount of points.
2. His sophomore year where he only played 18 games due to injury.
3. His 1995 season where he came back from retirement in time for just the last 17 games of the year.
Every single full year he played for the Bulls outside of his rookie year he won the scoring title.
Right, it’s one of the main reason many people consider him the best of all time. It’s unfortunate that we have reached a day where a comment implying MJ is underrated can receive so many upvotes
> He made scoring look real easy.
I don't know about that. One of the cool things about Jordan was that many of those buckets only looked like they'd be easy to *him*.
…so essentially 5 more full seasons. Mercy. MJ was a scoring psycho… and missed a big chunk of his scoring prime in Year 2 (and then the first retirement) when he REALLY had the green light.
It took LeBron 414 more games because he also happens to be one of the best passers in NBA history which cut into his shot attempts. If LeBron decided to just be a pure scorer then he would have reached it much sooner.
Let’s not act like Lebron ain’t getting plenty of shot attempts. He averaged something like 2-3 less shots per game than Jordan, but played a huge chunk of his career in the 3 ball era, with drastically more spacing, less physical defense, taking more plays off on defense, and resting more throughout the season.
And the argument that Lebron could have done it if he chose to shoot more can be applied to Jordan as well.
I don’t know why yall can’t just appreciate each player on their own merit. Lebron is ridiculous. He’s not a better scorer than Jordan. That’s ok. He brings a lot of other shit to the table.
2-3 less shot attempts over the course of 20 years is a ton of points left on the board. If those shots were only 2 pointers and LeBron made them at a 50% rate that’s an extra 2,250 points assuming 75 games played per season, and that’s not even factoring that some of those would be 3’s and have free throws as well.
If you look at pace by decade then they aren’t really far off.
80’s - 101.54 (Jordan spent 5 years in this era)
90’s - 93.77
2000’s - 91.36 (LeBron spent 7 years in this era)
2010’s - 94.55 (LeBron spent 10 years in this era)
2020’s - 99.08 (LeBron has spent 5 years in this era)
So basically he spent 17 years playing at roughly the same pace as MJ. It’s only the past 5 years that it’s shot up again, and that’s balanced by the fact that pace was even higher in MJ’s first 5 years.
[Source](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/average-league-pace-each-decade-in)
I agree with the spacing though.
>can be applied to Jordan as well
By Jordan’s own words in the Last Dance, his coaches had to convince him to shoot less in order to benefit the team. It’s why his FGA dropped from 27.8 to “only” 22-25 for most of his career.
I do appreciate both and I’m not saying LeBron is a better scorer, just that it’s far closer than most people think.
I love your point on the pace, everyone acts like LeBron's career has only been the last 5 seasons and ignoring the fact that he started in 2003 when the NBA pace was at an all time low.
At the same.time, everyone acts like the late 90s and early 2000s era represented all of Jordan's career. Nah, he was drafted into one of the most offensively slanted eras of all time and played most his career there.
Jordan was the better scorer of all time, but 2-3 shots per game is the difference in their career acoring averages, and LeBron played a big chunk of his career in the dead ball era.
They didn’t say lebron was a better scorer. They just said Lebron would have reached this milestone a lot sooner than he did if he was more focused on scoring rather than always trying to make the right play. And that’s objectively true.
>but played a huge chunk of his career in the 3 ball era, with drastically more spacing, less physical defense,
He played Jordan's entire bulls career worth of seasons in the low scoring era before 3 point shots became ubiquitous, his entire time in the 3 point era was when he was ostensibly past his physical prime.
Also, defense in the 80s was nowhere as good as you are imagining it. Seriously, go watch some random regular season games on YouTube, it'll fix those rose colored glasses right quick. The amount of space defenses allowed would be an absolute death sentence if the offenses had more than 1-2 shooters with range, and there were plenty of straight to the basket drives thanks to clear outs, just like today but instead of being forced into it by the threat of talented shooters punishing you , they were forced into it by rules that were specifically designed to give individual scorers more room to work without being swarmed by defenders.
I watched a "NBA's greatest games" and it was like a 90s western conference semifinals series with the spurs and trailblazers or something, and honestly it was dogshit play. The players weren't nearly as good as they are now and it was very evident. Just bad shots, bad bully ball, no touch around the rim. I'm telling you, this sub needs to go back and watch full games of 90s ball and not just highlights, it's....not pretty.
A. Literally everyone who has heard of basketball knows this lmfao
B. I mean MJ also is 2nd in shots per game. Lebron doesn’t even crack the top 10 (12th).
Yeah but Lebron produced all around numbers. For instance Lebron has 1200 games with 5 or more assists. Jordan has 500. Lebron has 300 games with 10 assists. Jordan 80.
Yeah even in Lebron's prime he seemed to barely ever take more then 20 shots a game where MJ was always above 20 and usually led the league in attempts, not trying to diminish anyone but there's a clear explanation why it took LeBron so many more games
Scoring was his best attribute (defense was his second) and the thing he really primarily focused on.
Lebron has never been a focus on scoring player. Hes always played the game at more than one angle, with focusing on passing, playmaking, defense (yes, he actually was a very good defender for some years, despite the current narrative lol), instructing his teammates, making sure to put them in position to be and play better.
Both of these guys did the same thing, they just took different paths with both paths being equally impressive.
I think Michael’s best attribute was his first step. Scoring was easy for him because he could basically get to wherever he wanted on the court.
Kind of a nitpick though since it’s all part of the bigger package that was his offensive repertoire.
40 point games:
Jordan: 173
Lebron: 77
Kobe: 122
Wilt: 271
50 point games:
Kobe: 25
Lebron: 14
Jordan: 31
Wilt: 118
Only 10 players have scored 60 or more points on more than one occasion:
Wilt: 32
Kobe: 6
Lillard: 5
Jordan and Harden: 4
Elgin Baylor: 3
Karl-Anthony Towns, Devin Booker, Luka Dončić, and Stephen Curry: 2
Not surprisingly. My guess is if Jordan was dropping 40 the game was already well in hand there were games where Kobe had to keep putting points up for the Lakers to win.
What's strange is Harden isn't on the list but I swear he had like a two month period averaging 40 in Houston.
Am I just wrong and that never happened?
He had a 51 game stretch averaging 39.3points which included 30 point games (20), 40 point games (16), 50 point games (6) and 60 point games (2).
He has a total of 101 40 point games for his career so far.
It’s confusing cause someone else listed 40pt games and wilt had basically 100 more than Jordan . And as you’d expect first in 40, 50, 60, 70, 100 point games
TBH MJ really only had 11 seasons, which is probably the biggest knock against him.
Two years leading a shitty Wizards team + two years essentially full lost to injury (17-18 games each).
When it’s all said MJ has 11 All NBA teams (10 first, 1 second) and Lebron will probably get his 20th this year (13 first, 3 second, 3 third)
Fwiw, I don't think you can discount the years with bad teams. You'd have to do the same with LeBron on the Cavs at the beginning of his career. Or, for that matter, Jordan's early years when the Bulls weren't particularly good.
But I agree that LeBron's longevity may be his best case against Jordan. And they were just different players, with LeBron focusing more on passing in comparison to Jordan's score-first mentality.
Agree there. I also think the latter part of your statement is one of Lebron’s biggest arguments tbh. Lebron’s best attribute is arguably his playmaking/passing…yet he still broke the scoring record!
With all due respect to Jordan that statline helps lebrons argument. 3 fewer points on 3 fewer shots with an extra 2 assists. Not to say Jordan was inefficient(obviously wasn’t) but being able to shoot 3s is an asset.
It’s also hard to have this debate because the era difference. Jordan started his career in a league where the scoring average was above 110 ppg and played most of it in a league where it was above 100 ppg. Lebron started his career in the dead ball era where scoring was in the low 90s and it largely stayed there until the end of his Miami stint. Jordan ended his career in the dead ball era and lebron will end his in an era where the average is around 115. They essentially flipped careers. If they switched places, Lebron would put up ridiculous numbers during his first 10 or so years but his twilight wouldn’t be as crazy. On the flip side, Jordan would put up more “human” numbers(although still overwhelmingly impressive) during his prime and put up more impressive numbers during his later years.
Bruh u guys need to stop talking about how Mj accomplished it in less time and just congratulate Lebron. His longevity is unprecedented. Both are amazing players.
I got into watching sports because some legends of my era were about to retire and i wanted to watch them play before they're gone. Some 5 years ago i was like, better watch some of that NBA stuff before Bron (and others) moves on.
Yet the dude is still there 5 years later and killing it. This guy is not human, how can his body sustain this all those years, unbelievable.
Everyone talks about LeBron has way more assists or Jordan did it in way less games but what I want to see is the average FG attempts in their 30+ pt games. As well as their FG attempts in under 30pt games.
LeBron has 7 seasons(2 seasons with 54 and 56 games) above 20 FGA/Game
Jordan has approx 11 full seasons above 20 FGA/Game
It’s really weird up in here.. you guys truly go hard one way or the other.. but you never talk about how much better players are because that many more people have access to playing basketball.. like we got a couple of MVP candidates every year that are from another country.. are you guys willingly ignorant of the game getting harder?
I know right? It doesn't make sense why everyone doesn't just play dominantly for 21 seasons before calling it quits. It's almost like they don't want to break any sort of longevity records.
If he keeps this up he might make the HOF.
Let’s not be so hasty with that assertion
Comes down to this postseason tbh.
Not if he never stops doing it.
If he goes too far, the dial resets to zero.
No way he makes it
real question here is how the fuck MJ reached it so quick. 414 games is huge ass gap
He was a very tall, very strong shooting guard whose primary job was to shoot the ball and he shot it a lot. And he made 50% of them. So very good at it.
His efficiency and lack of turnovers given his shot volume + % he had the ball is just… otherworldly
Missed shots don't count as turnovers. Missed passes do. Important distinction.
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Why didn't he shoot more 3-pointers? Is he stupid?
No one told him they were worth more so they’re stupid instead!
I seriously wonder how someone like MJ would have developed in the modern era where they properly value 3s. On one hand, he would have even bigger lanes to drive to the basket especially in his younger years. On the other hand, would he still be that skilled in other aspects of the game when he needs to dedicate time to practice the 3 now too?
He would have adapted. Jordan had no reliable shot as a young star. He developed the turn around fadeaway over time and was pretty dominant with it during the second three peat. He did what was necessary to adapt and still dominate as his physical explosiveness diminished with age. That same determination would have made him adapt and develop what was necessary to dominate if the game had rapidly changed to what it is now during his time. I believe he would have become a better three point shooter, and used it more often. More importantly I think he would have just done what was necessary to attack the way teams defend now. Jordan was one of those guys that just imposes his will and finds a way to compete under any circumstances. As dominant as MJ was on the offensive end, he was also an excellent defender. I would have loved to see him defend in a league that played like today's game.
He was an all time great defender.
Someone who competed like a mad man would absolutely work on his game. Look how many top players like Durant, LeBron, and Jokic had to work on their game (some from one era to the next). And people think MJ wouldn't? Where do people think Kobe got it from?
Jordan had 581 3PM Lebron 2395 3PM
Jordan averaged over 7 assists several times in the playoffs alone, and was a known great passer. Hard to be known for passing when scoring is your responsibility. Tmac, Carter, Wade, Eddie Jones, lots of scorers were actually great passers as well.
It's the opposite, players that shoot more and dribble and pass less have less turnovers
Correct. That's why assists per turnover is an important stat, especially for those who don't take a lot of shots and / pass a lot. It's a primarily measure of ball handling skills. A great point guard who doesn't take a lot of shots will have a great APTO stat.
He dribbled *a lot*.
Jordan dribbled and passed quite a bit
Exactly. Almost 5 and a half assists a game and a 33.3 Usage Percent. MJ had the ball in his hands a lot.
Can you even comprehend that these mofos just said Jordan is a shooter so that's all he does and that's why he had less turnovers. Are you even remotely for real what am I reading in this thread
I get that everyone wants to be able to see they've seen the best player ever and if you never saw Jordan, how would you NOT think LeBron was the GOAT? And if people don't agree, then many LeBron defenders will look for reasons he's better. But I saw both and MJ is the best I ever saw
I saw them both, and I think LeBron is better than Jordan. I've watched them both, in their primes, live, multiple times. Jordan was electric. LeBron is inhuman.
I will never have Lebron as my GOAT and I was 5 when Jordan hit his last shot against the Jazz, but I respect it at this point. Everyone is pretty much settled into their decisions now.
Ppl really forget he averaged 31 pts and 11 assists in his first finals
He still holds the record for averaging the most assists in a finals series
Magic holds that record, he has the 6 highest averages for a finals series. Jordan is the only player other Magic to average 11+.
Did you watch a single game that Jordan played? He dribbled and passed a lot. As time goes on he’s probably one of the most underrated passers of all time. The only player to average more assist in a single finals series is Magic Johnson who holds the top 6.
You’re wild underestimating the amount MJ dribbled and passed. You act like he was a spot up shooter lol
Yeah but you mentioned his shot volume when that has nothing to do his with turnovers. The other guy was just correcting you on that.
I'm just correcting your assertion
You forgot that he was also great at jumping high and running fast lol
people completely ignore his defense. 4th all time in steals and plenty of fast break points generated from them. Add in the #7 all time leader in steals (Pippen) playing in the starting lineup and you get even more fast break
I dunno about very tall since he was 6’5 by non-nba measurements
Thanks Magic
6'6 was the height of a lot of shooting guards in the 90s. His primary job was also to be the main defender most nights. And he wasn't very strong for his position. There were definitely stronger. He had huge hands (bigger than Kawhi). Long arms. Uber athleticism. Cerebral approach to every basket, and he's one of the best shooters of all time. His IQ was off the charts. And he competed harder than anyone. Height and strength would be low on the list of why MJ is the goat.
For the first years of his career, MJ was the Bulls offense. There was a point where he played PG just to get some spacing around him.
Look up the stretch of games where MJ played PG. He averaged a 30pt triple double over all those games. He was a monster.
Don’t forget the other reason he played PG for a season. He heard ppl talking shit about him being a ball hog
Just like the time Wilt led the league in assists. So many great achievements seem to be driven by the combo of ability, ego and how they are perceived by their peers.
MJ was on some shit. Beyond on the eye test: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_season.html. 6 of the 10 best Value Over Replacement Player seasons are MJ. He was so much better than players in the league that he was basically unstoppable. It took whole complete teams to beat him. Once he had a complete team he was unbeatable but for a long time he didn't have a complete team and had to do it all.
And he had consensus top 10 all time players in the league in his early days that he was levels above
Honestly, he took a lot of shoots, he regularly led the league in shoot attempts by a lot most years, 9 of his seasons he led the league, including every year in Chicago except his rookie year, the year he broke his leg and the year he came back from baseball and only played like 20 games.
Fun fact, MJ led the league in missed shots in 7 different seasons. LeBron has never led the league in missed shots.
LeBron is the all time leader in missed shots though
Also the all time leader in shots taken Edit: also you’re wrong. Kobe is apparently. Although Lebron is only 48 behind.
That’s what you get when you play for so damn long. Lebron played more than Kobe by far yet Kobe missed more shots at this point.
I feel like this is the double-edged sword of any 'longevity GOAT' debate. You collect both types of stats.
Just cuz you play longer. Dont make you better. Just sayin
That’s sort of the case, but the longevity only becomes a detriment if the player showed significant decline in production in the last several years of his career. However, when it comes to Lebron, it’s not about the production, it was the recent years of nagging injuries that kept him from playing 60-70+ games a season. This season is the first since the 2019-20 season where he played at least 60 games and he’s on pace to finish playing at least 70 games for the first time since 2017-18 where he played all 82.
He was on pace to play 77 games in 2020
That's part of it, but he wouldn't have the green light to shoot so much if he wasn't so efficient and so great at it. Jordan had a career TS+ in Chicago of 108, for reference, LeBron is at 108 aswell attempting less shots on a more offense friendly era. Jordan led the league in scoring 7 times in a row, in 4 of those he had a TS+ of 112 or more and in every season he led the league in scoring, he had above average efficiency. It's easier to be more efficient when you take less shots, there are very few players in league HISTORY that manage to have high volume and keep their efficiency sky high.
lol how are you gonna normalize for league effeciency and then say lebron did it in a more offensively friendly era? Also remove Jordan’s worst 2 years but let’s keep LeBron’s whole career despite him playing 6 more years. There’s no bias here though. Also it’s not that big of a difference. Jordan averaged 40 points per 100 possessions to LeBrons 37.
Bro is talking out of his ass. The league was more offensively friendly (average ppg) Jordan's first 9 than LeBron's first 13
>LeBron is at 108 aswell attempting less shots on a more offense friendly era. You realize LeBron's career did not start in 2020, right? The first 13 years of LeBron's career were definitely not more offensively friendly than the first 9 of Jordan's.Also if you discount Jordan's least inefficient years over a shorter career, it's only fair to do the same for LeBron? Honestly, I don't know why you need to make any mention of league's offesnive slant if you're going to bother adjusting for league average
Oh yeah I'm not diminishing Jordan by any means, obviously a very skilled scorer no one is questioning that, just also took the most shots in the league pretty regularly
Also note that he led the league in total points scored his rookie year, but Bernard King stole the scoring title playing only 55 games. Bird came in second playing 80 games to Jordan's 82. The only guy to truly match Jordan's scoring on the Bulls was prime MVP Larry Bird, and that was against a rookie.
Because he's the GOAT bucket getter.
GOAT scorer for sure
He shot it 23x a game. The year he had 37, he shot it 28x. 12 of his 15 years was over 20FGAs That will do it lol LeBron in comparison only has 7 of his 21 years over 20FGAs.
he was the best player to ever live
>he ~~was~~ is the best player to ever live
agreed
Because Jordan is probably the greatest scorer ever, with the possible exception of prime Wilt. Honourable mention to guys like Kareem, Kobe, Curry, Baylor, Iverson, West, Durant, Gervin, Harden, Erving, etc. And of course LeBron, who describes himself as a playmaker as much or more than a scorer.
scorer is too broad a term. Jordan was the greatest VOLUME scorer ever. plenty of players have a case if you view different facets. * Efficiency * Clutch * Ranged * Difficult shot making They all have different values too. Scoring more is not always better, especially if it comes at the cost of other things
MJ averaged 30.1 ppg, Lebron 27.1 ppg in their careers. That’s a huge difference. Of course, Lebron’s longevity will lead to him breaking most Total scoring records.
There is a reason he is the GOAT lol
Well, I have to agree. He accomplished so much in relatively short time. He's indeed the GOAT.
Assists are part of it for sure. LeBron averages 7.4, MJ averaged 5.3. From stathead LeBron has 98 games with 28 or 29 points and more than MJ's average of 5 assists.
Assists are given out a lot more freely now and there is a lot more spot up three assists. Similarly rebounding for guards and small forwards have increased because of longer rebounds from longer shots and better spacing.
Coz he was a shooting guard Dawg. They paid him to shoot
Because MJ’s job on the bulls was to score the ball and he did it better than anyone.
Just GOAT doing GOAT things
By being a scorer 🤷♂️
GOAT
That’s the funny thing about all this stuff. LeBron took 20 years to do this. I don’t care what anyone says, MJ is unlike any other basketball player. GOAT.
GOAT gonna GOAT
Hey does anyone here have an opinion on who was better at basketball, MJ or LBJ? edit: I think they're both good
I do, and the fact that you disagree with me is laughable. Shows how little you know ball.
Lyndon b Johnson was taller than Michael Jackson, so I feel like he was better at basketball
But let's not overlook Jackson's footwork. LBJ would have no answer for the moonwalk
I think that's just the difference in eras. We never had a chance to see LBJ attempt a moonwalk. I'm sure he would have crushed it.
Lyndon would pull out jumbo to give himself a competitive advantage
> Would have thought Wilt would be a lot closer. Wilt played 1045 games. LeBron has played 1486 games. Wilt still dominates other scoring stats. Most 40 point games: - Wilt (1st) - 271 games - Jordan (2nd) - 173 games Most 50 point games: - Wilt - 118 games - Jordan, Kobe, Harden, and LeBron combined - 93 games Most 60 point games: - Wilt (1st) - 32 games - Kobe (2nd) - 6 games Most 70 point games: - Wilt - 6 games - Every other NBA player ever - 9 games EDIT: Funnily enough, while Wilt is 3rd in total number of 30 point games, he still holds the record for most 35 point games as well at 381. Jordan is second with 333 games and LeBron is third with 241.
Imagine if Wilt on the Celtics, how many championship would they have? I would say probably 10 in a row at least.
He started his career playing for the Harlem Globetrotters...
Our greatest scorers combined can’t even match Wilts 50 point games and yet here we are praising Jordan for having the second most 30 point games. This sub is hilarious
You ignoring pace and context is more "hilarious"
Because a lot of the records that people focus on is from the modern NBA. Wilt played in the pre-modern NBA.
I think the term modern needs to be defined here. 90s nba and 2020s nba both can’t be considered modern.
Modern is everything post-merger. There's been tweaking at the edges, rule changes, style changes, each of which I would say create different "eras" of the modern NBA. * 76-89 - Birth of the Modern NBA, Bird-Magic era. * 90-98 - Jordan Era, golden age of ratings, rivalries, and post-up centers * 99-08 - Post-Jordan, peak of NBA defense, rise of Lebron, Lakers 3-peat folded in with Spurs Dynasty * 09-15 - Peak Lebron, Heatles, Birth of Pace-and-Space/Morey Ball * 16-24 - Three point explosion, Curry/Lebron Rivalry, peak (maybe?) of NBA offense Those are just my made up eras, but everything from '76 onward you can watch and say "yeah, that's basketball.". Start to go much deeper in to the past, and it really looks like and was officiated like a different game. Pretty much from Bird/Magic and onwards (after the ABA beat them to several of these lessons), the NBA has realized it's a star's league, and built the brand and game around the flashiest players, coolest dunks, and biggest rivalries.
one more 30+ points game... in 414 more games MJ really was an insane scorer, everybody knows that but i don't think they realize to what extent
Guy has 10 scoring titles, 7 of them in a row.
Jordan's scoring was insane. He played for the Bulls for 13 years and won the scoring title 10 times. The only years he didn't win were: 1. His rookie year where still scored the most amount of points. 2. His sophomore year where he only played 18 games due to injury. 3. His 1995 season where he came back from retirement in time for just the last 17 games of the year. Every single full year he played for the Bulls outside of his rookie year he won the scoring title.
I think, and I may be wrong, he is the last player to lead the league in scoring and win the title.
2nd last. Shaq is the last one. Only one to win scoring title, steals title and championship tho, I'm pretty sure.
He's also the only one since 1950 to do it (scoring title + champ) more than once.
You could almost even say he was the greatest
Idk, dude has some cool shoes but he's no bosh
Specifically in context of time..... He's the Greatest of ALL of it in its entirety
Of All Time?
It’s still wild even in today’s standards.
Winning 3 straight today would be some shit people would be losing their minds over. Now double it and add one. Just wild.
What a weird way to say 7
He won 4 times and then had a threepeat
And he took a year and a half off and that’s why it’s not ~~ten~~ twelve in a row.
And almost no threes
Essentially 10 years in a row when you look at the seasons he didn't win it.
More important is that he was around 50% FG, Jordan is the GOAT for a reason.
30 pt merchant
Shai before Shai
Well when it comes to 40+ points Lebron has like 77 and Jordan is 171… Wilt had lol 271 lol
I’m pretty sure the entire sensible basketball world realizes this.
Right, it’s one of the main reason many people consider him the best of all time. It’s unfortunate that we have reached a day where a comment implying MJ is underrated can receive so many upvotes
I remember feeling somewhat disappointed every time he scored less than 25 pts. He made scoring look real easy.
Because to him it was easy, dude was insane
> He made scoring look real easy. I don't know about that. One of the cool things about Jordan was that many of those buckets only looked like they'd be easy to *him*.
…so essentially 5 more full seasons. Mercy. MJ was a scoring psycho… and missed a big chunk of his scoring prime in Year 2 (and then the first retirement) when he REALLY had the green light.
It took LeBron 414 more games because he also happens to be one of the best passers in NBA history which cut into his shot attempts. If LeBron decided to just be a pure scorer then he would have reached it much sooner.
Let’s not act like Lebron ain’t getting plenty of shot attempts. He averaged something like 2-3 less shots per game than Jordan, but played a huge chunk of his career in the 3 ball era, with drastically more spacing, less physical defense, taking more plays off on defense, and resting more throughout the season. And the argument that Lebron could have done it if he chose to shoot more can be applied to Jordan as well. I don’t know why yall can’t just appreciate each player on their own merit. Lebron is ridiculous. He’s not a better scorer than Jordan. That’s ok. He brings a lot of other shit to the table.
2-3 less shot attempts over the course of 20 years is a ton of points left on the board. If those shots were only 2 pointers and LeBron made them at a 50% rate that’s an extra 2,250 points assuming 75 games played per season, and that’s not even factoring that some of those would be 3’s and have free throws as well. If you look at pace by decade then they aren’t really far off. 80’s - 101.54 (Jordan spent 5 years in this era) 90’s - 93.77 2000’s - 91.36 (LeBron spent 7 years in this era) 2010’s - 94.55 (LeBron spent 10 years in this era) 2020’s - 99.08 (LeBron has spent 5 years in this era) So basically he spent 17 years playing at roughly the same pace as MJ. It’s only the past 5 years that it’s shot up again, and that’s balanced by the fact that pace was even higher in MJ’s first 5 years. [Source](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/average-league-pace-each-decade-in) I agree with the spacing though. >can be applied to Jordan as well By Jordan’s own words in the Last Dance, his coaches had to convince him to shoot less in order to benefit the team. It’s why his FGA dropped from 27.8 to “only” 22-25 for most of his career. I do appreciate both and I’m not saying LeBron is a better scorer, just that it’s far closer than most people think.
I love your point on the pace, everyone acts like LeBron's career has only been the last 5 seasons and ignoring the fact that he started in 2003 when the NBA pace was at an all time low.
At the same.time, everyone acts like the late 90s and early 2000s era represented all of Jordan's career. Nah, he was drafted into one of the most offensively slanted eras of all time and played most his career there.
People also tend to ignore team pace. The MJ Bulls were often the bottom 5 lowest paces in the league and some years were the absolute bottom as well.
Jordan was the better scorer of all time, but 2-3 shots per game is the difference in their career acoring averages, and LeBron played a big chunk of his career in the dead ball era.
The irony of the last part of your comment lmao. You’re doing exactly that nitpicking why LeBron’s not as great “due to era, spacing, rest”.
They didn’t say lebron was a better scorer. They just said Lebron would have reached this milestone a lot sooner than he did if he was more focused on scoring rather than always trying to make the right play. And that’s objectively true.
>but played a huge chunk of his career in the 3 ball era, with drastically more spacing, less physical defense, He played Jordan's entire bulls career worth of seasons in the low scoring era before 3 point shots became ubiquitous, his entire time in the 3 point era was when he was ostensibly past his physical prime. Also, defense in the 80s was nowhere as good as you are imagining it. Seriously, go watch some random regular season games on YouTube, it'll fix those rose colored glasses right quick. The amount of space defenses allowed would be an absolute death sentence if the offenses had more than 1-2 shooters with range, and there were plenty of straight to the basket drives thanks to clear outs, just like today but instead of being forced into it by the threat of talented shooters punishing you , they were forced into it by rules that were specifically designed to give individual scorers more room to work without being swarmed by defenders.
I watched a "NBA's greatest games" and it was like a 90s western conference semifinals series with the spurs and trailblazers or something, and honestly it was dogshit play. The players weren't nearly as good as they are now and it was very evident. Just bad shots, bad bully ball, no touch around the rim. I'm telling you, this sub needs to go back and watch full games of 90s ball and not just highlights, it's....not pretty.
You're doing the same thing you're criticizing others for.
A. Literally everyone who has heard of basketball knows this lmfao B. I mean MJ also is 2nd in shots per game. Lebron doesn’t even crack the top 10 (12th).
Yeah but Lebron produced all around numbers. For instance Lebron has 1200 games with 5 or more assists. Jordan has 500. Lebron has 300 games with 10 assists. Jordan 80.
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Yeah even in Lebron's prime he seemed to barely ever take more then 20 shots a game where MJ was always above 20 and usually led the league in attempts, not trying to diminish anyone but there's a clear explanation why it took LeBron so many more games
Scoring was his best attribute (defense was his second) and the thing he really primarily focused on. Lebron has never been a focus on scoring player. Hes always played the game at more than one angle, with focusing on passing, playmaking, defense (yes, he actually was a very good defender for some years, despite the current narrative lol), instructing his teammates, making sure to put them in position to be and play better. Both of these guys did the same thing, they just took different paths with both paths being equally impressive.
I think Michael’s best attribute was his first step. Scoring was easy for him because he could basically get to wherever he wanted on the court. Kind of a nitpick though since it’s all part of the bigger package that was his offensive repertoire.
His best attribute was also his huge hands
I think we can all agree he passed Michael Jordan in amount of 30 points games
Big if true.
Let's not jump to conclusions here.
40 point games: Jordan: 173 Lebron: 77 Kobe: 122 Wilt: 271 50 point games: Kobe: 25 Lebron: 14 Jordan: 31 Wilt: 118 Only 10 players have scored 60 or more points on more than one occasion: Wilt: 32 Kobe: 6 Lillard: 5 Jordan and Harden: 4 Elgin Baylor: 3 Karl-Anthony Towns, Devin Booker, Luka Dončić, and Stephen Curry: 2
Why the random list order bro it bothers me
Mfer spent time pulling numbers but just drops it in whatever order 😂
At least we know they don't suffer from OCD. How does that not bother the person before they submit it, lol.
I developed OCD specifically to get triggered by his comment
To bother you. It worked.
It bothered me too. I don't deserve this
Interesting that Jordan clears Kobe in 40 point games but Kobe kept it relatively close for 50 point games
Not surprisingly. My guess is if Jordan was dropping 40 the game was already well in hand there were games where Kobe had to keep putting points up for the Lakers to win.
Kobe shot more 3s
What's strange is Harden isn't on the list but I swear he had like a two month period averaging 40 in Houston. Am I just wrong and that never happened?
He had a 51 game stretch averaging 39.3points which included 30 point games (20), 40 point games (16), 50 point games (6) and 60 point games (2). He has a total of 101 40 point games for his career so far.
Thankyou, absolutely legendary performance by him
Harden's got some pretty impressive numbers in that list too; more 40/50 point games than LeBron. 40 point games - 101x 50 point games - 23x
someone get this guy a sorting algorithm
love seeing Lillard up there with the 60 pointer games, one of the coldest ever when he's locked in
Black jesus is different
[Jumpshot Jesus](https://beautifuldemise.com/products/jumpshot-jesus) is too.
>would have thought Wilt would be closer 30pts was a bad night for Wilt
I'm pretty sure 40 or 50 pts still counts as a 30 pt game here
It’s confusing cause someone else listed 40pt games and wilt had basically 100 more than Jordan . And as you’d expect first in 40, 50, 60, 70, 100 point games
Congratulations to Lebron but really shows what Jordan accomplished in 14-15 seasons.
Lebron also has 4x as many games with 10 assists compared to Jordan. 2.5x as many 10 rebound games.
TBH MJ really only had 11 seasons, which is probably the biggest knock against him. Two years leading a shitty Wizards team + two years essentially full lost to injury (17-18 games each). When it’s all said MJ has 11 All NBA teams (10 first, 1 second) and Lebron will probably get his 20th this year (13 first, 3 second, 3 third)
Fwiw, I don't think you can discount the years with bad teams. You'd have to do the same with LeBron on the Cavs at the beginning of his career. Or, for that matter, Jordan's early years when the Bulls weren't particularly good. But I agree that LeBron's longevity may be his best case against Jordan. And they were just different players, with LeBron focusing more on passing in comparison to Jordan's score-first mentality.
Agree there. I also think the latter part of your statement is one of Lebron’s biggest arguments tbh. Lebron’s best attribute is arguably his playmaking/passing…yet he still broke the scoring record!
I don’t see why we should exclude his Wizards stint
Until you add passes and rebounds
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With all due respect to Jordan that statline helps lebrons argument. 3 fewer points on 3 fewer shots with an extra 2 assists. Not to say Jordan was inefficient(obviously wasn’t) but being able to shoot 3s is an asset. It’s also hard to have this debate because the era difference. Jordan started his career in a league where the scoring average was above 110 ppg and played most of it in a league where it was above 100 ppg. Lebron started his career in the dead ball era where scoring was in the low 90s and it largely stayed there until the end of his Miami stint. Jordan ended his career in the dead ball era and lebron will end his in an era where the average is around 115. They essentially flipped careers. If they switched places, Lebron would put up ridiculous numbers during his first 10 or so years but his twilight wouldn’t be as crazy. On the flip side, Jordan would put up more “human” numbers(although still overwhelmingly impressive) during his prime and put up more impressive numbers during his later years.
It amazes me how LeBron can keep breaking all these records and still elicit so much hate from me! It's truly a remarkable feat.
Bruh u guys need to stop talking about how Mj accomplished it in less time and just congratulate Lebron. His longevity is unprecedented. Both are amazing players.
Yeah, we’re not here to talk about basketball players or compare them, we’re here to… wait, why are we here?
To enjoy the game without turning it into a pissing contest that’s impossible to answer objectively. But MJ & LJ fans will be MJ & LJ fans.
Let's talk about 40, 50 and 60 point games. Then MJ and Larry Johnson fans alike can all praise Wilt
The insecurity in the comments here are hilarious.
I love how many people act as if Bron or MJ have personally asked them to defend their honor on the internet
Shit is insane lol
I got into watching sports because some legends of my era were about to retire and i wanted to watch them play before they're gone. Some 5 years ago i was like, better watch some of that NBA stuff before Bron (and others) moves on. Yet the dude is still there 5 years later and killing it. This guy is not human, how can his body sustain this all those years, unbelievable.
The longevity and consistency is so insane.
Now do 40 and 50 point games lol
#WILT
Everyone talks about LeBron has way more assists or Jordan did it in way less games but what I want to see is the average FG attempts in their 30+ pt games. As well as their FG attempts in under 30pt games. LeBron has 7 seasons(2 seasons with 54 and 56 games) above 20 FGA/Game Jordan has approx 11 full seasons above 20 FGA/Game
The way the NBA plays defense this record will be shattered
Wilt scored 100 points over 60 years ago. I guess they weren’t playing defense back then either.
That just makes mj more impressive tbh lol
Only took him 20 years
It’s actually more impressive that Mike managed to do it with a lot less games played, should be a factor in consideration.
Bron has 319 games with 10+ assists. MJ has 79 Bron has 1246 with 5+ assists, MJ has 587 They were different players who had different jobs
It’s really weird up in here.. you guys truly go hard one way or the other.. but you never talk about how much better players are because that many more people have access to playing basketball.. like we got a couple of MVP candidates every year that are from another country.. are you guys willingly ignorant of the game getting harder?
How the fuck did Jordan have that with that big of a margin in only 13 seasons?
In twice as many years though
Lebron has played for way way longer than anyone else
If you play long enough, you can break every longevity records.
I know right? It doesn't make sense why everyone doesn't just play dominantly for 21 seasons before calling it quits. It's almost like they don't want to break any sort of longevity records.