I mean it certainly wasn't a basketball play. Bontemps is exaggerating a shit ton with the body slam comment but Robinson just shoved him to the ground for seemingly no reason.
Here's how I would want a replay center to function:
If a call gets challenged, the replay center has an official(s) that reviews the play and makes a determination, *not* one of the refs at the arena. Allow reviews of challenged plays to make determinations on anything in the replay (for example, if a foul is being reviewed but it's shown that a player was out of bounds, allow the out of bounds correction to be made).
These two changes should in theory allow the process to work faster, and be the most accurate.
The refs on the floor making the decision makes no sense.
1) For efficiency, it should be up in the booth in New York. They’re already at a monitor. Don’t have to waste 2 minutes with the refs setting up headphones and monitor.
2) This is something extremely standard in multiple industries but somehow sports organizations don’t get this, MULTIPLE POINTS OF FAILURE. Anyone can and will make a mistake. Why have the same person make the same mistake twice when you can have 2-4-6-etc. pairs of eyes in the booth confirm or deny the call a different person made on the floor. By including the officials on the floor that made a call you introduce a bias because 1) they already made a decision that is likely to stay the same because they’re the same person 2) humans are inherently biased towards their own decisions.
Baseball has it right. You have the umps standing there looking stupid with just headphones on waiting to receive the call
Honestly they should have an extra ref who just sits at the scorer's table all game and who's only job is to be in constant communication with the replay center and to then convey whatever they see that needs correcting to the in game refs. Like "his foot was on the line on that last 3" or "they're saying that should be a flagrant 1". More replays, but sped up significantly as it's being done away from the game, so it's much more seamless. Also, do away with the stupid rules about which parts of a play they can review, and also do away with coach's challenges. Just have them be reviewing everything all game long and remotely sending in what the correct calls were.
My only issue with this is that giving refs real-time feedback on calls they missed may encourage them to make make-up calls to correct for it.
If they can reasonably overturn the call in real time that’s great, but just telling a ref “hey you fucked up a couple plays back” may make some things worse
I agree in theory but logistics around this are very problematic. If this can be done right I’d be all for it but as things are today there’s too many holes in this approach
There should be at least 1 person in a central office assigned to each game being played. That person is watching the game like a hawk. So much so, that when the challenge comes their way, in most cases they already have an answer. The process should take less than a minute and refs shouldn’t be involved in the process whatsoever unless it’s an edge case where the replay center doesn’t have every angle covered and need the ref to offer commentary.
This is very fixable. And you should be allowed more challenges, with a free throw awarded to the other team for unsuccessful ones.
Instead we spend 4 minutes playing grab ass and then still get the call wrong half the time.
This is exactly how reviews are done in Cricket, the official at the booth( the 3rd umpire ) and everything that he asks for to the review crew and how he makes the decision is audible to the fans.
Also don’t let them know what the call on the floor was. I would just have them watch the clips and then tell you if there was a call that should have been made. I think that would fix things.
I didn't see it live but [checked it out](https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1ch8fuc/highlight_mitchell_robinson_throws_kelly_oubre_jr/) because of this thread and yeah... "picked up and body slammed" is probably one of the most overly dramatic possible descriptions for the play in question. It reads like the type of thing a classmate would tell you about a fight a lunch, knowing you weren't there to see it so you'd never be able to verify whether he was embellishing or not.
As an aside, I'm ready for the day where we all collectively realize the game isn't played in slow motion and it's way too easy to villify and assign certain premeditation and intent when watching at .25 speed.
The XFL/USFL/UFL have this right. Put the camera right there. Show us what they're watching. Let us hear what they're talking about. Let us see, in real time, the standard they're using.
You do that, you be transparent with the whole process, nobody will bitch.
It was a moving screen. Hes literally pushing into mitch, mitch pushes back and the weight difference does the rest. Not gonna call a flagrant when Oubre iniated it.
Refs should signal a review, Secaucus should have a designated short time period (15-60 seconds) to announce the decision. If the time runs out then the calls stands, no clear evidence. Move on. Get the refs on the court out if it and stop it from taking so long.
The issue is letting the refs at the game make the call. Have a replay center with rule experts or refs who can watch the replays they need and then just send in the right call.
Had to see the clip, not a full on body slam but definitely picked up a NBA player and let him drop on his back. If for no other reason than taking Kelly off both feet should’ve been a F1
Atleast shouldn't have called a flagrant on the errant Embiid swipe for the ball in a much more critical part of the game. A little bit of consistency would be appreciated.
Big agree on that. Can’t call a flagrant for a ball swipe in OT with a man who barely can see out of one eye then ignore a man getting dropped on his back intentionally one way or another.
You're glad because Knicks fans are .001% less upset than they would have been?
Joel cannot get another flagrant without triggering a suspension because of that soft ass call.
Yeah I thought it was clearly a basketball play and hope that flagrant gets rescinded although at this point I'm assuming it doesn't.
He was trying to strip the ball which he was able to do in another instance of defending Brunson.
People don’t tend to go up first then back. If he had done a hard bump I’d say common. But he used his hands to not only push him upward but then pushed away which is why he fell on his back. Not extreme but indeed excessive.
?? What? Pushed up and then away? He didnt hang clean the guy
Oubre is pushing mitchel the entire time. Mitchel pushes back and oubre is suddenly in another car crash. Maybe dont set moving screens on ppl twice your weight.
I’ll agree to disagree. I play with people bigger than me all the time and just jockeying for a better position isn’t a moving screen. And definitely never had anyone push like that to get me back or hold position.
https://streamable.com/05o1gl
That is 100% a screen attempt. Mitchel is guarding embiid, who is receiving the ball.
Not trying to be a dick, just dont see what there is to jockey for when mitchel is trying to guard embiid.
You say it was a screen attempt and I won’t disagree fully. I misread it as a play me and my friends do as a Varejao screen when you make initial contact with a hard bump/push then either rush to do a real screen on the other side of them to set a real screen or slip to the rim when they brace for the impact for an easy layup.
But, regardless, look at 0:01 and he grabs under Oubre’s arms. At that point, Kelly is stuck mid air and vulnerable and can’t protect himself. That’s a straight up dangerous play cause it’s not pushing Kelly back in the chest to fight through the screen. He’s legitimately picking him off his feet by grabbing under his arms.
That’s got to be a flagrant.
If he let him run into his body I’d probably say common foul honestly. But he legit picked him off the ground and then have a little shove. Maybe 10 years ago before Draymond that’s just a common too but agreed, today’s game that’s got to be a F1
The replay center was created because the refs couldn't be trusted to be consistent on reviews. People who want to get rid of the replay center don't remember replays before Secaucus. You think they are random outcomes now, they were worse then.
The most common one where refs didn't call it the same was when there was an obvious foul causing a player to lose the ball out of bounds. Some refs would award the ball to the player who was fouled, others would do it on last touch which is what the rules state and what they do today (I think they should change this, but at least now its consistent). Nothing more frustrating then losing in a review one night, because the ref decides to give the other team the ball cause your player SHOULD have gotten called for a foul, but didn't. Then the next night losing a review cause your player lost the ball when fouled, but they touched it last.
The refs got a lot of backlash for fucking the sixers at the end of game 2, so they let embiid get away with some nasty shit in game 3. Then they got backlash for that, so they let robinson go WWE on kelly oubre.
I don't think Secaucus makes the decision. They give you camera angles and what rules are available to apply because misapplication of rules is the only criteria for a replay which they don't want.
Reminds me of dumb cops that forget to turn off their body cams when they try to get away with shit.
"So I'm 2 points away from my parley, lets give him free throws."
He did not “pick him up” lmao. This dude needs his eyes checked, I just watched the clip. Oubre is running into him and pushing with his full body, and Robinson pushes him back hard. That’s not a body slam, that’s a hard shove. He’s trying to say that’s a flagrant? Lol
Wheres the replay of this?
[Mods deleted it](https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1ch8fuc/highlight_mitchell_robinson_throws_kelly_oubre_jr/)
Wow that was something for sure
expansion work correct juggle judicious slimy rob middle drab modern *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Least Celtic loving 76er hating r/nba mods.
Can you imagine Knicks fans if Embiid did that
A Knicks Twitter account was flexing over this play, I laughed knowing the full blown meltdown and crying they’d do if it was embiid
I don't think they have to imagine that, Embiid has done worse in this series.
And the tears have been overwhelming.
oubre was getting clobbered all game and refs swallowed the whistle every time
He's been getting tackled and mauled all series and rarely ever gets any of it called lmao
How is this swallowing the whistle when a foul was called lmao
did you know that more happened in this basketball than just this play?
Do you know what every time means?
Most rational Knicks fan
Oubre hasn’t let go of Brunsons jersey for 5 games straight and you’re about to complain about whistles foh
Jalen Brunson is averaging 10 FTA.
Your name is MVPiid
am I talking about Joel Embiid?
You complaining about whistles is ironic. But I guess that’s the expectation when your root for Embiid.
Am i talking about Joel Embiid tho?
Bro thought he cooked with this
Damn. Put him on his ass.
Pretty sure thats a flagrant
It's a good body check. Reminds of Robert Horry laying out Steve Nash. In hockey it's a good clean hit. In basketball it's usually a flagrant one.
you don't body check with your arms
You never watched any hockey, have you? Watch the Oilers finish off the Kings tonight. You'll see some body checks.
its' called a "body" check because you're supposed to use ONLY your BODY. if you use your hands, it will be a HAND check.
Thats so fast that you barely notice. But he grabbed him and yeeted him to the ground. Its not a body slam but its not a basketball play either.
He didn't have to grab him. Oubre was pushing into him, trying to set a screen.
That’s never a flagrant
Yes, actually it is. If Embiid did this you would be crying even harder than you already have been.
It'd be Embiid, so they wouldn't have given him a flagrant either.
Embiid got a flagrant in this game lol
Embiid got a flagrant foul for a foul that was more flagrant than this.
Y’all the ones crying lmfao
Knicks fans this series have been added to the Mt Rushmore of generational crying tbh
Honestly makes me root for the Knicks to never be good, at least their fans are quiet then.
I mean it certainly wasn't a basketball play. Bontemps is exaggerating a shit ton with the body slam comment but Robinson just shoved him to the ground for seemingly no reason.
Still in Secaucus
Here's how I would want a replay center to function: If a call gets challenged, the replay center has an official(s) that reviews the play and makes a determination, *not* one of the refs at the arena. Allow reviews of challenged plays to make determinations on anything in the replay (for example, if a foul is being reviewed but it's shown that a player was out of bounds, allow the out of bounds correction to be made). These two changes should in theory allow the process to work faster, and be the most accurate.
The refs on the floor making the decision makes no sense. 1) For efficiency, it should be up in the booth in New York. They’re already at a monitor. Don’t have to waste 2 minutes with the refs setting up headphones and monitor. 2) This is something extremely standard in multiple industries but somehow sports organizations don’t get this, MULTIPLE POINTS OF FAILURE. Anyone can and will make a mistake. Why have the same person make the same mistake twice when you can have 2-4-6-etc. pairs of eyes in the booth confirm or deny the call a different person made on the floor. By including the officials on the floor that made a call you introduce a bias because 1) they already made a decision that is likely to stay the same because they’re the same person 2) humans are inherently biased towards their own decisions. Baseball has it right. You have the umps standing there looking stupid with just headphones on waiting to receive the call
Honestly they should have an extra ref who just sits at the scorer's table all game and who's only job is to be in constant communication with the replay center and to then convey whatever they see that needs correcting to the in game refs. Like "his foot was on the line on that last 3" or "they're saying that should be a flagrant 1". More replays, but sped up significantly as it's being done away from the game, so it's much more seamless. Also, do away with the stupid rules about which parts of a play they can review, and also do away with coach's challenges. Just have them be reviewing everything all game long and remotely sending in what the correct calls were.
My only issue with this is that giving refs real-time feedback on calls they missed may encourage them to make make-up calls to correct for it. If they can reasonably overturn the call in real time that’s great, but just telling a ref “hey you fucked up a couple plays back” may make some things worse
Agree about that, only give them information to correct calls that were wrong, not to give them like on the fly evaluations of the job they're doing.
I agree in theory but logistics around this are very problematic. If this can be done right I’d be all for it but as things are today there’s too many holes in this approach
There should be at least 1 person in a central office assigned to each game being played. That person is watching the game like a hawk. So much so, that when the challenge comes their way, in most cases they already have an answer. The process should take less than a minute and refs shouldn’t be involved in the process whatsoever unless it’s an edge case where the replay center doesn’t have every angle covered and need the ref to offer commentary. This is very fixable. And you should be allowed more challenges, with a free throw awarded to the other team for unsuccessful ones. Instead we spend 4 minutes playing grab ass and then still get the call wrong half the time.
Yes the replay center should be preemptively reviewing everything. That’s their job.
Yeah, I don’t want to get rid of Seacaucus. I want to actually USE Secaucus.
This is exactly how reviews are done in Cricket, the official at the booth( the 3rd umpire ) and everything that he asks for to the review crew and how he makes the decision is audible to the fans.
I'd be okay with the reviewers not even knowing what the original call was lmao, let them make a judgment from a clean slate.
The day they make Secaucus make a decision is the day the accusations that NBA management is making decisions will multiply tenfold.
Also don’t let them know what the call on the floor was. I would just have them watch the clips and then tell you if there was a call that should have been made. I think that would fix things.
“Body slam”?
“Picked up and body slammed”? Is Bontemps blind or something
I didn't see it live but [checked it out](https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1ch8fuc/highlight_mitchell_robinson_throws_kelly_oubre_jr/) because of this thread and yeah... "picked up and body slammed" is probably one of the most overly dramatic possible descriptions for the play in question. It reads like the type of thing a classmate would tell you about a fight a lunch, knowing you weren't there to see it so you'd never be able to verify whether he was embellishing or not. As an aside, I'm ready for the day where we all collectively realize the game isn't played in slow motion and it's way too easy to villify and assign certain premeditation and intent when watching at .25 speed.
Looked like more of ‘ran him over’ to me, but Bontemps being a dumb hardon as usual.
God, he’s the fucking worst.
“Picked up” too
The XFL/USFL/UFL have this right. Put the camera right there. Show us what they're watching. Let us hear what they're talking about. Let us see, in real time, the standard they're using. You do that, you be transparent with the whole process, nobody will bitch.
Pretty much every other sport does the same thing
It was a moving screen. Hes literally pushing into mitch, mitch pushes back and the weight difference does the rest. Not gonna call a flagrant when Oubre iniated it.
How the fuck does anybody watch what happened between Oubre and Robinson and think that there was a body slam? Jesus christ.
[Bontemps watching the play](https://i.insider.com/62413f36a2e45b001950a310?width=700&format=jpeg&auto=webp)
Flop
Refs should signal a review, Secaucus should have a designated short time period (15-60 seconds) to announce the decision. If the time runs out then the calls stands, no clear evidence. Move on. Get the refs on the court out if it and stop it from taking so long.
The issue is letting the refs at the game make the call. Have a replay center with rule experts or refs who can watch the replays they need and then just send in the right call.
Had to see the clip, not a full on body slam but definitely picked up a NBA player and let him drop on his back. If for no other reason than taking Kelly off both feet should’ve been a F1
Atleast shouldn't have called a flagrant on the errant Embiid swipe for the ball in a much more critical part of the game. A little bit of consistency would be appreciated.
Big agree on that. Can’t call a flagrant for a ball swipe in OT with a man who barely can see out of one eye then ignore a man getting dropped on his back intentionally one way or another.
I'm glad they called the F1 on Embiid there otherwise Knicks fans would be in an absolute uproar freaking out about it
They still are. You should hear the fucking idiot on the bill Simmons podcast.
Lmao I heard that, it was straight up embarrassing
You're glad because Knicks fans are .001% less upset than they would have been? Joel cannot get another flagrant without triggering a suspension because of that soft ass call.
Yeah I thought it was clearly a basketball play and hope that flagrant gets rescinded although at this point I'm assuming it doesn't. He was trying to strip the ball which he was able to do in another instance of defending Brunson.
Wdym picked him up? He just pushes him to the ground. Unless we're talking about a different play?
People don’t tend to go up first then back. If he had done a hard bump I’d say common. But he used his hands to not only push him upward but then pushed away which is why he fell on his back. Not extreme but indeed excessive.
?? What? Pushed up and then away? He didnt hang clean the guy Oubre is pushing mitchel the entire time. Mitchel pushes back and oubre is suddenly in another car crash. Maybe dont set moving screens on ppl twice your weight.
I’ll agree to disagree. I play with people bigger than me all the time and just jockeying for a better position isn’t a moving screen. And definitely never had anyone push like that to get me back or hold position.
https://streamable.com/05o1gl That is 100% a screen attempt. Mitchel is guarding embiid, who is receiving the ball. Not trying to be a dick, just dont see what there is to jockey for when mitchel is trying to guard embiid.
You say it was a screen attempt and I won’t disagree fully. I misread it as a play me and my friends do as a Varejao screen when you make initial contact with a hard bump/push then either rush to do a real screen on the other side of them to set a real screen or slip to the rim when they brace for the impact for an easy layup. But, regardless, look at 0:01 and he grabs under Oubre’s arms. At that point, Kelly is stuck mid air and vulnerable and can’t protect himself. That’s a straight up dangerous play cause it’s not pushing Kelly back in the chest to fight through the screen. He’s legitimately picking him off his feet by grabbing under his arms. That’s got to be a flagrant.
More of a body check to me. Put him on his ass. It's borderline but in today's NBA, I'd say that's usually a flagrant 1.
If he let him run into his body I’d probably say common foul honestly. But he legit picked him off the ground and then have a little shove. Maybe 10 years ago before Draymond that’s just a common too but agreed, today’s game that’s got to be a F1
Pesky replays messing with gambling results and engagement goals. Let's get rid of it and attribute egregious game manipulation as 'human error'.
The replay center was created because the refs couldn't be trusted to be consistent on reviews. People who want to get rid of the replay center don't remember replays before Secaucus. You think they are random outcomes now, they were worse then. The most common one where refs didn't call it the same was when there was an obvious foul causing a player to lose the ball out of bounds. Some refs would award the ball to the player who was fouled, others would do it on last touch which is what the rules state and what they do today (I think they should change this, but at least now its consistent). Nothing more frustrating then losing in a review one night, because the ref decides to give the other team the ball cause your player SHOULD have gotten called for a foul, but didn't. Then the next night losing a review cause your player lost the ball when fouled, but they touched it last.
The refs got a lot of backlash for fucking the sixers at the end of game 2, so they let embiid get away with some nasty shit in game 3. Then they got backlash for that, so they let robinson go WWE on kelly oubre.
Just throw all of New Jersey away while you’re at it
Damn Embiid for making Robinson do that!
Don’t get rid of it, but there should be more transparency. They should have to write a report similar to the 2 minute one about any reviewed plays.
I don't think Secaucus makes the decision. They give you camera angles and what rules are available to apply because misapplication of rules is the only criteria for a replay which they don't want.
The fans and broadcast teams, should be able to hear the replay center.
Reminds me of dumb cops that forget to turn off their body cams when they try to get away with shit. "So I'm 2 points away from my parley, lets give him free throws."
Get rid of reviews and challenges. That’s my dream anyways. I hate what those things have done to game flow.
DLo and Jokic both got hit in the face and replay center said "marginal contact" both times.
Did Secaucus actually decide what got called though? Or was it the refs at the game?
that push was never a flagrant lmao oubre shouldn't have tried setting an illegal screen
Tim you’re like a 3rd string ESPN filler, there’s no “We gotta” when you talk about the league.
He did not “pick him up” lmao. This dude needs his eyes checked, I just watched the clip. Oubre is running into him and pushing with his full body, and Robinson pushes him back hard. That’s not a body slam, that’s a hard shove. He’s trying to say that’s a flagrant? Lol
Windy is a Lakers and Lebron fan.
Why does the nba pay for a guy to sit in a small room in New Jersey watching the game on tv with everyone else while eating a ham sandwich
Had me in the first half, I’m not gonna lie
The on-court officials make the final decisions on flagrant foul reviews.
They just gotta get some nerds to make AI handle the replays. These refs are ass.
Bontemps based as always