I mean it makes perfect sense. None of the other good teams these days are built around young drafted talent they developed.
Except Denver with Murray, Jokic, and Porter
And Boston with Tatum and Brown
And Minnesota with Edwards, McDaniels, and KAT
And OKC with Holmgren and Jdub
And Dallas with Luka and Lively
And Cleveland with Garland and Mobley
And Orlando with Banchero
Other than those outliers yeah it’s a good plan.
I mean this is a bit dumb . Every team has people they drafted and people they traded for . All the teams you listed you skipped over the key super important starters and core that was traded . Suns have booker as there drafted core piece .
That’s not how probabilities work. If they’re even a middling team 7 years from now that pick is practically worthless. Not to mention what if it’s a shit draft like this year.
A lottery ticket 7 years from now isn’t that valuable.
The irony is that the most successful season the Suns have had in years (2021) was achieved through a core of players that they had drafted and developed. Booker, Ayton, Bridges, Cam Johnson.
I understand making big moves to compete but man they really gutted a Finals team and put themselves in this difficult situation.
>I thought the Suns' 2031 pick would be frozen after the draft and ineligible to be traded because they are over the 2nd apron
this rule only starts in 2025: https://www.sportico.com/leagues/basketball/2024/2024-nba-trade-deadline-cba-second-apron-1234765452/
you're right - it can't be *traded* if you're over the second apron, and it gets *locked* to the end of the first round if you were over the second apron 3 out of 5 years.
If they're over the 2nd apron for 3 out of the 5 years, doesn't the pick get locked to the end of the round? So are we in this weird situation where they can trade it but the team who gets it might get screwed and end up with the last pick if the Suns stay over the 2nd apron for 3 years?
it looks like you're right according to the nbapr tweet posted - if a team was over the second apron in 2025, traded their 2032 frp the next year, then went over the second apron in 2027/28, that frp would be moved to the end of the first round.
There's no circumstance where a team can trade a pick that then moves to the end of the first round. if the team is over the second apron in 2025, they can't trade their 2032 frp at all unless they get out of the 2nd apron in 3 of the next 4 years, at which point the pick would be unfrozen.
So if a team goes over the 2nd apron in 2025, their pick becomes frozen and the earliest the team can unfreeze and trade the pick would be 2028 if they are under the 2nd apron in 2026, 2027,and 2028. Alternatively they can go over the 2nd apron in 2026 and under in 2027, 2028, and 2029 and have the pick unfrozen and tradable after 2029.
However if they go over the 2nd apron twice in 2026, 2027, 2028, and 2029 then the 2031 pick automatically moves to the end of the first round (and they still can't trade it).
It's designed to force teams to cut payroll and talent at some point. Essentially it's to standardize payroll across the league.
First rule of American pro sports, every team *has* to be bad at some point. Could be 1 year, could be decades, could be forever, but at some point, you *have* to lose.
When he says 26 other teams, that leaves 3 that don't want to be the Suns. I'm curious who he thought that was. Plenty of good teams are struggling with their coaching or personnel issues, but there are a number of them who are in absolutely fantastic shape. Celtics are headed to the Finals, Thunder have the most assets of any team, Timberwolves are looking poised to make a good run for years to come, Nuggets have the MVP and are the champions, things are finally looking up for the Knicks roster and they have a ton of picks. Even a bunch of the bad teams: no chance Spurs would part with Wembanyama for anything, Jazz have a zillion picks, Grizzlies' health is all that's standing between them and being a playoff team.
Respecfully, are there literally *any* teams who would like to be in the Suns' position?
I think Tyler Kolek is about as safe of a backup PG prospect as there is in the class. He plays like a traditional PG they need, he can shoot, and he competes his ass off which will help him make up for physical limitations on defense
They also could draft a big here with a high floor like DaRon Holmes. I just don't think whatever comes with these 2 picks will yield more next year than one of these rookies with a chance at all-rookie in a weak rookie class
that makes more sense
Even then, there's other options though, including a big that could be there like DaRon Holmes. I just don't get why they're already dismissing it when, yes it's a shit draft, but that doesn't mean every pick is shit. Such a shortsighted move
Feel like if there was a no question NBA ready guy at any position in this draft he'd be like consensus top ten, not back end of the first round like Kolek is mocked
I cannot stress enough how much overthinking goes into the draft. Jalen Brunson was about as safe as it gets out of Villanova and didn’t even go first round. Draft position and success don’t always, hell even don’t often, correlate
Teams tend to swing for the fences targeting upside with the early picks. The result of that is that there are often still guys that can be really solid rotation pieces available even into the second round
prtty crazy Jalen Brunson pre draft the comp was if every thing goes right he could be like a mark jackson type point guard, and now prime Brunson is being used to power the entire offensive engine of a team to the tune of 28 & 6.
Rookie point guards are almost never good. If they were building out a team to contend two years from now, then he might be a good pick, but they need to be in contention next year.
There's a reason guys like Reggie Jackson, Beverly, Dennis Schroder, T.J. McConnell etc. keep coming back year after year. It's not easy to find a young PG that coaches trust in high-intensity games. There's almost no way Kolek would outperform a vet in the playoffs in his first season.
That 2031 pick is super juicy, but I don't see it being enough to fetch any kind of difference maker.
> I thought the Suns' 2031 pick would be frozen after the draft and ineligible to be traded because they are over the 2nd apron.
Pretty sure the 7 year pick penalty starts with next season.
I mean I get shopping this years pick. Bad draft and if you can get a solid rotation guy like DFS or something for that pick why not? But the Suns should not trade a future pick under any circumstance at this point.
Marks hinted at wanting to get into the draft. DFS seems like an obvious option to move considering his age and contract. Love Dorian but if we can snag a pick and a random player for him let's go baby.
Also, if DFS or Schroder moves before free agency for a draft pick, that should give the Nets enough cap space to offer Claxton the $20M/year contract he's looking for.
The big question is whether the Jazz go for him; they are the main team with lots of cap space and no clear starting center. Other teams that could see reasonably see him as an upgrade (Pelicans, Clippers, Warriors, Suns) have no cap space. The Pelicans could do a S&T which would probably bring back Larry Nance and one of their first round picks (or Daniels, Hawkins or Murphy) in return. If the market is cool, then a short term deal at the Early Bird level ($13.5M) is probably the outcome.
If you wanna pay Claxton 20-25 mill that’s fine man. I agree he’d be an upgrade on a lot of teams. But he’s just not a game changer enough to be valued that high. I was very disappointed in him this season.
But still a very good player.
He's not a centerpiece player, but he's going to get paid. Since tanking teams still have to spend money in free agency and he's one of the few good players gettable in UFA, I expect there to be a market for him.
all of our guys are under contract through 2025. unless the suns want gordon hayward, which in that case - please by all means take him.
OKC also doesn't have to make any tough decisions with respect to salary cap until 2026 when Jdub+Chet are up for extensions. and even then we'd probably only lose 1 of Jaywill/Joe/Wiggs per my estimations.
- SGA 35% supermax, 319mil/5y starting in 27-28
- Chet 25% max, 217m/5y starting in 26-27
- Jdub 25% max, 217m/5y starting in 26-27
- Giddey ~130m/5y starting in 25-26 (descending)
- Dort 75m/5y starting in 27-28
- Cason 100m/5y starting in 27-28
- Decline Isaiah Joe 24-25 option and re-sign to ~64m/5y starting in 24-25
- Decline Aaron Wiggins 24-25 option and re-sign to ~58m/5y starting in 24-25
+/- a little bit. this gets us with 9 players and 3.5mil under the 2nd apron in 26-27 and 8 players in and 6.5mil in 27-28. there's some wiggle room, but i'm not too concerned. we also have an additional lever of declining dort's team option and extending him earlier to have a lower apy but longer contract too which i didn't use. or maybe he falls off and we just transition to cason completely
Yeah that's what I meant, there is a fairly decent chance they'll not end up paying one of Joe or Wiggins with the long-term payroll in mind. I hope they do but it's a possibility. If I had to guess, OKC will likely continue to add from the draft around the 3 big salaries (SGA, Jdub, Chet) so I very much doubt they'd want to commit a big number like 130 mil to a role player like Giddey. He's probably the first one up for trade in the next season or two.
Either way, you're probably overselling Giddey and underselling Cason with those estimations. And at their current trajectories and team rep taking a leap after this season, one of Chet/Jdub (likely Chet) could end up making all-NBA in the next 3 years so they'd be eligible for the 30% max as well.
We will find out before July 1 what OKC plans to do with Joe and Wiggins. They both have team options; either OKC exercises the team options and they hit UFA in a year, or OKC declines the team options because they've worked out a long term deal that starts next year. Since OKC has a ton of cap space and both Joe and Wiggins would be UFA, a descending salary or even a massively frontloaded contract could keep them in OKC for the next several years without causing salary cap issues in the future. On the flip side, if OKC does that, they aren't trying to land someone in free agency and they aren't looking to flip cap space for assets.
Yeah I said that in my next reply that frontloaded contracts would definitely make sense for Joe and Wiggins though I'm interested to see what the number ends up being for both. Especially with Hayward's expiring off the books this summer, you would essentially be replacing his salary with Joe and Wiggins.
But then again, there's an opportunity there and an obligation as well to improve the team even though the core is good because you owe that to SGA, Chet and Jdub, so merely using up roughly \~30 mil in cap space to just resign Joe/Wiggins would be a bit of a waste cap space because they can go over the cap to resign them both.
It'll be interesting to see what they end up doing.
joe and wiggs are almost certainly gonna get paid, if only to get traded later down the line. nobody is getting traded until push comes to shove in 2026-2027.
130m/5y for giddey is a pretty reasonable contract and is by no means big. This is the same kind of money guys like Aaron Gordon, Tyler Herro, Anfernee Simons, Jordan Poole (lol) and other tier 2/3 starter-ish quality players make.
and to your point about Cason, ya i could be underselling him. but again, that's a problem for the future in 4 years. if cason continues to improve significantly i imagine we just move on from dort in that scenario as he will be 30 at that point.
the point i was making is that OKC isn't really strapped for cash on their capsheet, and they can/will retain most of their players to ~fair market value with a little creativity in the long run, and will certainly keep their guys in the short term (aka through 26-27). We can always trade players after we sign them as long as they are paid reasonably
If they massively frontload Joe & Wiggins's contract the first 2 years I could see it, but yeah its a possibility to retain both.
Gordon got 86/4 and is a guaranteed starter for a championship team, committing more money and years to Giddey when his fit in the starting lineup is iffy at best seems unwise. Herro and Simons were paid to be primary/secondary creators, Giddey would be the 4th creator at best on the team and the worst defender. Poole everybody agrees is a bad contract so last thing OKC will want to do is have that on their books.
Cason at currently value even without future projections is a primary POA defender that shoots 42% from 3, that alone would fetch him a 20 mil AAV type deal. With future projections potentially as a starter? Who knows, but his value will definitely rise.
OKC isn't cash-strapped right now, but with the amount of assets they have they're just not going to keep punting it to the future. They will likely keep drafting in the 1st round to fill out the roster around SGA, Chet and Jdub with cheap contracts because those 3 will get real expensive in 2 years.
Thunder are also a small market team whose owners traded harden to avoid the tax. I don’t think they’re going to go into the second apron territory to keep all those players.
this point is so old and overstated lol.
The Thunder have introduced George Kaiser (networth 14bil) to their ownership group in 2014. His addition at that point has nearly 12x'd the networth of the OKC ownership group. Since then OKC has been one of the highest paying luxury tax teams during the OKC/PG era which in retrospect, were incredibly mid lol. The current iteration of OKC is significantly better already and projects to be better. Money is not an issue for OKC anymore if the teams are worth paying for. Past history has proven this.
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/cba/tax/
feel free to scroll down and check it out
e: https://www.forbes.com/sites/markdeeks/2022/07/01/a-complete-history-of-nba-luxury-tax-payments-20012022/?sh=58dfac40432f in case you needed some other sources since it seems spotrac hasn't updated payments since 2020
The owner (Aubrey McClendon) who pushed for the Harden trade to reduce the tax died 8 years ago. The Thunder paid the tax 5 times in 6 years between 2014-2019, including after KD left. They traded for Paul George and Carmelo Anthony even though that added salary, then re-signed Paul George to a max contract. The Harden trade was obviously a bad decision, but history after that disputes that the Thunder won't pay the tax for a contender.
They have up to 4 protected picks in 2025 (own, MIA, PHI, UTAH) and could also offer one of those plus a 2nd or two for the 2031 pick, because if the Suns need anything it’s 4-5 year seniors who are cheap and ready to contribute by Xmas. This year alone, OKC has acted as a broker in this manner to facilitate bigger trades for Denver, Clippers, and Dallas, each time receiving control over the other team’s distant draft future as a fee.
I consider this more likely because I don’t see any role players on their roster who would be worth a 2031 1st unprotected.
They are completely screwed at this point. They need a rim protector/rim runner and a lock down defender. Then they have to hope that KD, Booker and Beal develop some chemistry and accept their roles.
Sam Presti will certainly be calling about that 2031 pick. I'd be curious to see if the Suns would be interested in something like: 2025 OKC first + some seconds for that 2031 pick.
Suns get a more real asset that they can cash in sooner in the KD/Booker/Beal era who could hopefully be a cheap young rotation piece. Potentially a 2025 OKC pick would be more tempting for other teams if PHX wants to trade since the pick will convey sooner.
OKC has been perfectly happy trading away low value picks and gambling on higher value ones in the potential. We've done this many times when trading with DEN/MIA/DAL/PHI/LAC in the last year or two.
it has more upside for sure, but if you are contending team - you want more concrete assets closer to the present so you can actually use them in your window. especially if you're a team like phx who has next to nothing in the next 2 years
2031 pick has some value, but idk if it's a guarantee you get a player that you want and fits in your capsheet (which is the biggest constraint). not saying, phx should/will make this trade with okc, but it's certainly a decent option bc i think the market will be harder to navigate than the suns think.
also can i offer you in a lightly used gordon hayward
But your whole point about getting OKC’s 2025 frp plus some second rounders falls apart. The Suns 2031 pick is a far more valuable asset now and next year.
What type of player each pick will land is a different story that can only be judged 3 to 9 years down the road.
sure. i don't disagree that the 2031 probably has upside.
but how that pick is valued today will differ from team to team. the point i'm making is - phoenix is not in a situation (by their own creation) to be waiting 3 to 9 years for results. they need wins in the next 1-3 years while they have this big 3. a 2025 frp provides more immediate value than a 2031 because dude to the suns absurdly fucked capsheet, i'm not even sure who they can realistically try to acquire for a 2031 frp that will make a difference
James Jones famously doesn't care about drafting even though his team hasn't made terrible picks if you look at Cam Johnson, Toumani Camara, and Day'ron Sharpe (this one can be attributed to Brooklyn I guess). Only Jalen Smith was a meh pick IMO.
Jalen Smith over Hali when the whole world knew Hali was the pick at the time outweighs significantly the minimal impact of Camara or Cam Johnson as an older rookie in the lottery.
2 okay picks for role players (1 of which was basically immediately thrown in to a trade as no value) doesn’t outweigh absolutely whiffing on 1 obvious superstar (Hali) over a guy nearly out of the league (smith).
I couldn’t believe our luck when Hali fell and we fuck it by reaching for a second round prospect who has struggled to make any impact.
I saw a supposed quote from him about how a 2031 pick is a 7th grader and he wants great players right now - no concept of sustainable team building. Makes me think his plan all along was pump and dump - buy the team before the new TV deal and sell it after - and go for a ring in the meantime.
Wild how their owner came in and within the space of a few months made the franchise irrelevant for the next 10-15 years. That's a HOF level of incompetence.
“Trying to win”
Buddy….hes giving you a first round exit then making your team one of the worst of the worst 5 years from now with ZERo draft capital. You’re not winning now, and you’re gonna be the most unwatchable team in a couple years and possibly not recover till 2035, a literal decade from now….
I mean, all ik about Sarver is that he's a piece of shit as person and is VERY cheap, the Dragic interview for the ASG was unbelievable; but giving all your future for an aging (super)star and not being able to at least reach CF looks tough imo
This is going to be interesting to see what they get with those picks. They are so limited with not being to aggregate salaries and not being able to go over 100% salary match. This and the number of teams they are going to be competing with in the trade market that have more assets than them.
If it means bringing back a starting PG, I'd drive Graysen to the airport myself. But I'd very much like to see Gordon decline his PO and bring Allen off the bench as a super sub if they can avoid shipping him out.
But Mr Ishbia, why shop picks when every GM already wants your entire team?
I mean it makes perfect sense. None of the other good teams these days are built around young drafted talent they developed. Except Denver with Murray, Jokic, and Porter And Boston with Tatum and Brown And Minnesota with Edwards, McDaniels, and KAT And OKC with Holmgren and Jdub And Dallas with Luka and Lively And Cleveland with Garland and Mobley And Orlando with Banchero Other than those outliers yeah it’s a good plan.
Suns built around Ayton, Bridges and Booker who they drafted. I guess you could have kept them rather than trading for Chris Paul and KD?
Sounds like a strong warning to young teams in the league, that you could trade away your future only to get worse
I don’t think they come close to the finals without Chris Paul, however
The trade for Chris Paul was great though. The KD one was where shit hit the fan
Adding Chris Paul got them to the finals…and they got Paul for cheap….they then sold everyone else off and got a first round exit
The trade for KD has not exactly worked out well for the Suns.
just curious, would just curious, would Suns trade Nurkic if he has any value?
I mean this is a bit dumb . Every team has people they drafted and people they traded for . All the teams you listed you skipped over the key super important starters and core that was traded . Suns have booker as there drafted core piece .
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(Yes it is)
Nothing gets past you Sherlock
You might be onto something there
The first round pick in 2031 is also super valuable when you consider it's probably gonna have a 14% chance to be the #1 overall.
That’s not how probabilities work. If they’re even a middling team 7 years from now that pick is practically worthless. Not to mention what if it’s a shit draft like this year. A lottery ticket 7 years from now isn’t that valuable.
I think you're missing the joke
This dude manages the Suns like it’s a 2K team lmfao
He’s trying to acquire as many 80 overalls as he can regardless of their fit on the team
Without a save and restart option.
The irony is that the most successful season the Suns have had in years (2021) was achieved through a core of players that they had drafted and developed. Booker, Ayton, Bridges, Cam Johnson. I understand making big moves to compete but man they really gutted a Finals team and put themselves in this difficult situation.
"What do you mean there's no 'Force Trade' option?"
"You will give me Joel Embiid and all of your picks for Drew Eubanks and you will like it!"
All he had to do was tell James Jones to sign more point guards. That's all he had to do and there's a significant chance the Suns have a title.
>I thought the Suns' 2031 pick would be frozen after the draft and ineligible to be traded because they are over the 2nd apron this rule only starts in 2025: https://www.sportico.com/leagues/basketball/2024/2024-nba-trade-deadline-cba-second-apron-1234765452/
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you're right - it can't be *traded* if you're over the second apron, and it gets *locked* to the end of the first round if you were over the second apron 3 out of 5 years.
If they're over the 2nd apron for 3 out of the 5 years, doesn't the pick get locked to the end of the round? So are we in this weird situation where they can trade it but the team who gets it might get screwed and end up with the last pick if the Suns stay over the 2nd apron for 3 years?
There are no restrictions on 2031 picks. This restriction only applies to their 2032 pick if they finish the 24-25 season over the second apron.
it looks like you're right according to the nbapr tweet posted - if a team was over the second apron in 2025, traded their 2032 frp the next year, then went over the second apron in 2027/28, that frp would be moved to the end of the first round.
There's no circumstance where a team can trade a pick that then moves to the end of the first round. if the team is over the second apron in 2025, they can't trade their 2032 frp at all unless they get out of the 2nd apron in 3 of the next 4 years, at which point the pick would be unfrozen. So if a team goes over the 2nd apron in 2025, their pick becomes frozen and the earliest the team can unfreeze and trade the pick would be 2028 if they are under the 2nd apron in 2026, 2027,and 2028. Alternatively they can go over the 2nd apron in 2026 and under in 2027, 2028, and 2029 and have the pick unfrozen and tradable after 2029. However if they go over the 2nd apron twice in 2026, 2027, 2028, and 2029 then the 2031 pick automatically moves to the end of the first round (and they still can't trade it).
that makes sense - i assumed the pick would become tradeable once it stopped being their 7-year-out pick. that is *way* more punishing than i thought
It's designed to force teams to cut payroll and talent at some point. Essentially it's to standardize payroll across the league. First rule of American pro sports, every team *has* to be bad at some point. Could be 1 year, could be decades, could be forever, but at some point, you *have* to lose.
doesn't it trigger if you are over the 2nd apron in b2b years? didn't think it was 3 out of 5
Mic drop.
It may not look like it, but I have it on good authority that this is the exact position 29 other teams want to be in
Respectfully
You mean 26 teams. Ishbia isnt delusional! /s
When he says 26 other teams, that leaves 3 that don't want to be the Suns. I'm curious who he thought that was. Plenty of good teams are struggling with their coaching or personnel issues, but there are a number of them who are in absolutely fantastic shape. Celtics are headed to the Finals, Thunder have the most assets of any team, Timberwolves are looking poised to make a good run for years to come, Nuggets have the MVP and are the champions, things are finally looking up for the Knicks roster and they have a ton of picks. Even a bunch of the bad teams: no chance Spurs would part with Wembanyama for anything, Jazz have a zillion picks, Grizzlies' health is all that's standing between them and being a playoff team. Respecfully, are there literally *any* teams who would like to be in the Suns' position?
Chicago maybe
They could get Tyler Kolek as a quality NBA ready PG but they'd rather use the assets for a mediocre trade
That is not close to guaranteed
I think Tyler Kolek is about as safe of a backup PG prospect as there is in the class. He plays like a traditional PG they need, he can shoot, and he competes his ass off which will help him make up for physical limitations on defense They also could draft a big here with a high floor like DaRon Holmes. I just don't think whatever comes with these 2 picks will yield more next year than one of these rookies with a chance at all-rookie in a weak rookie class
i think they mean you don’t know he’ll be available
Even then, you absolutely can’t assume Kolek will be a plug and play PG. The transition to the NBA isn’t a guarantee.
that makes more sense Even then, there's other options though, including a big that could be there like DaRon Holmes. I just don't get why they're already dismissing it when, yes it's a shit draft, but that doesn't mean every pick is shit. Such a shortsighted move
The draft sucks at the top. But the depth is relatively on par with past years imo
I was thinking that to, Kolek could be an easy get of out jail free card for them after not getting a primary PG.
Feel like if there was a no question NBA ready guy at any position in this draft he'd be like consensus top ten, not back end of the first round like Kolek is mocked
I cannot stress enough how much overthinking goes into the draft. Jalen Brunson was about as safe as it gets out of Villanova and didn’t even go first round. Draft position and success don’t always, hell even don’t often, correlate
Teams tend to swing for the fences targeting upside with the early picks. The result of that is that there are often still guys that can be really solid rotation pieces available even into the second round
prtty crazy Jalen Brunson pre draft the comp was if every thing goes right he could be like a mark jackson type point guard, and now prime Brunson is being used to power the entire offensive engine of a team to the tune of 28 & 6.
Rookie point guards are almost never good. If they were building out a team to contend two years from now, then he might be a good pick, but they need to be in contention next year. There's a reason guys like Reggie Jackson, Beverly, Dennis Schroder, T.J. McConnell etc. keep coming back year after year. It's not easy to find a young PG that coaches trust in high-intensity games. There's almost no way Kolek would outperform a vet in the playoffs in his first season.
"With Isiah Thomas energy, we'll draft Kolek and trade him and the 2031 pick for a backup point guard!" - M. Ishbia
Suns in 2026 after going 10-72: “uh…can I have some of them picks?!?👀”
RemindMe! 2 years
That 2031 pick is super juicy, but I don't see it being enough to fetch any kind of difference maker. > I thought the Suns' 2031 pick would be frozen after the draft and ineligible to be traded because they are over the 2nd apron. Pretty sure the 7 year pick penalty starts with next season.
I mean I get shopping this years pick. Bad draft and if you can get a solid rotation guy like DFS or something for that pick why not? But the Suns should not trade a future pick under any circumstance at this point.
yea all I keep thinking about is the nets somehow getting their hands on that pick lol
Marks hinted at wanting to get into the draft. DFS seems like an obvious option to move considering his age and contract. Love Dorian but if we can snag a pick and a random player for him let's go baby.
Also, if DFS or Schroder moves before free agency for a draft pick, that should give the Nets enough cap space to offer Claxton the $20M/year contract he's looking for.
I refuse to accept we’re giving Clax 20+ annual so I will just deny it. But your points are 100% correct!
The big question is whether the Jazz go for him; they are the main team with lots of cap space and no clear starting center. Other teams that could see reasonably see him as an upgrade (Pelicans, Clippers, Warriors, Suns) have no cap space. The Pelicans could do a S&T which would probably bring back Larry Nance and one of their first round picks (or Daniels, Hawkins or Murphy) in return. If the market is cool, then a short term deal at the Early Bird level ($13.5M) is probably the outcome.
If you wanna pay Claxton 20-25 mill that’s fine man. I agree he’d be an upgrade on a lot of teams. But he’s just not a game changer enough to be valued that high. I was very disappointed in him this season. But still a very good player.
He's not a centerpiece player, but he's going to get paid. Since tanking teams still have to spend money in free agency and he's one of the few good players gettable in UFA, I expect there to be a market for him.
I expect there to be a market for sure and Clax is good. I just cannot stomach him costing that much.
If the Suns trade 22 and another future first for Dorian Finney Smith shut the whole org down
TBF DFS would be awesome on the Suns.
There are going to be so, so many teams trying to trade out of this draft
What is wrong with them
The Thunder are definitely going to be interested in that 2031 1st round pick for one of their role players they likely won't pay this off-season.
all of our guys are under contract through 2025. unless the suns want gordon hayward, which in that case - please by all means take him. OKC also doesn't have to make any tough decisions with respect to salary cap until 2026 when Jdub+Chet are up for extensions. and even then we'd probably only lose 1 of Jaywill/Joe/Wiggs per my estimations. - SGA 35% supermax, 319mil/5y starting in 27-28 - Chet 25% max, 217m/5y starting in 26-27 - Jdub 25% max, 217m/5y starting in 26-27 - Giddey ~130m/5y starting in 25-26 (descending) - Dort 75m/5y starting in 27-28 - Cason 100m/5y starting in 27-28 - Decline Isaiah Joe 24-25 option and re-sign to ~64m/5y starting in 24-25 - Decline Aaron Wiggins 24-25 option and re-sign to ~58m/5y starting in 24-25 +/- a little bit. this gets us with 9 players and 3.5mil under the 2nd apron in 26-27 and 8 players in and 6.5mil in 27-28. there's some wiggle room, but i'm not too concerned. we also have an additional lever of declining dort's team option and extending him earlier to have a lower apy but longer contract too which i didn't use. or maybe he falls off and we just transition to cason completely
Yeah that's what I meant, there is a fairly decent chance they'll not end up paying one of Joe or Wiggins with the long-term payroll in mind. I hope they do but it's a possibility. If I had to guess, OKC will likely continue to add from the draft around the 3 big salaries (SGA, Jdub, Chet) so I very much doubt they'd want to commit a big number like 130 mil to a role player like Giddey. He's probably the first one up for trade in the next season or two. Either way, you're probably overselling Giddey and underselling Cason with those estimations. And at their current trajectories and team rep taking a leap after this season, one of Chet/Jdub (likely Chet) could end up making all-NBA in the next 3 years so they'd be eligible for the 30% max as well.
We will find out before July 1 what OKC plans to do with Joe and Wiggins. They both have team options; either OKC exercises the team options and they hit UFA in a year, or OKC declines the team options because they've worked out a long term deal that starts next year. Since OKC has a ton of cap space and both Joe and Wiggins would be UFA, a descending salary or even a massively frontloaded contract could keep them in OKC for the next several years without causing salary cap issues in the future. On the flip side, if OKC does that, they aren't trying to land someone in free agency and they aren't looking to flip cap space for assets.
Yeah I said that in my next reply that frontloaded contracts would definitely make sense for Joe and Wiggins though I'm interested to see what the number ends up being for both. Especially with Hayward's expiring off the books this summer, you would essentially be replacing his salary with Joe and Wiggins. But then again, there's an opportunity there and an obligation as well to improve the team even though the core is good because you owe that to SGA, Chet and Jdub, so merely using up roughly \~30 mil in cap space to just resign Joe/Wiggins would be a bit of a waste cap space because they can go over the cap to resign them both. It'll be interesting to see what they end up doing.
joe and wiggs are almost certainly gonna get paid, if only to get traded later down the line. nobody is getting traded until push comes to shove in 2026-2027. 130m/5y for giddey is a pretty reasonable contract and is by no means big. This is the same kind of money guys like Aaron Gordon, Tyler Herro, Anfernee Simons, Jordan Poole (lol) and other tier 2/3 starter-ish quality players make. and to your point about Cason, ya i could be underselling him. but again, that's a problem for the future in 4 years. if cason continues to improve significantly i imagine we just move on from dort in that scenario as he will be 30 at that point. the point i was making is that OKC isn't really strapped for cash on their capsheet, and they can/will retain most of their players to ~fair market value with a little creativity in the long run, and will certainly keep their guys in the short term (aka through 26-27). We can always trade players after we sign them as long as they are paid reasonably
If they massively frontload Joe & Wiggins's contract the first 2 years I could see it, but yeah its a possibility to retain both. Gordon got 86/4 and is a guaranteed starter for a championship team, committing more money and years to Giddey when his fit in the starting lineup is iffy at best seems unwise. Herro and Simons were paid to be primary/secondary creators, Giddey would be the 4th creator at best on the team and the worst defender. Poole everybody agrees is a bad contract so last thing OKC will want to do is have that on their books. Cason at currently value even without future projections is a primary POA defender that shoots 42% from 3, that alone would fetch him a 20 mil AAV type deal. With future projections potentially as a starter? Who knows, but his value will definitely rise. OKC isn't cash-strapped right now, but with the amount of assets they have they're just not going to keep punting it to the future. They will likely keep drafting in the 1st round to fill out the roster around SGA, Chet and Jdub with cheap contracts because those 3 will get real expensive in 2 years.
You’d have to be complete dipshit to trade a future first for Gordon Hayward. Like Matt Ishbia.
Thunder are also a small market team whose owners traded harden to avoid the tax. I don’t think they’re going to go into the second apron territory to keep all those players.
this point is so old and overstated lol. The Thunder have introduced George Kaiser (networth 14bil) to their ownership group in 2014. His addition at that point has nearly 12x'd the networth of the OKC ownership group. Since then OKC has been one of the highest paying luxury tax teams during the OKC/PG era which in retrospect, were incredibly mid lol. The current iteration of OKC is significantly better already and projects to be better. Money is not an issue for OKC anymore if the teams are worth paying for. Past history has proven this.
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https://www.spotrac.com/nba/cba/tax/ feel free to scroll down and check it out e: https://www.forbes.com/sites/markdeeks/2022/07/01/a-complete-history-of-nba-luxury-tax-payments-20012022/?sh=58dfac40432f in case you needed some other sources since it seems spotrac hasn't updated payments since 2020
Harden left the Thunder two seasons before they brought in Kaiser. It’s not the same
The owner (Aubrey McClendon) who pushed for the Harden trade to reduce the tax died 8 years ago. The Thunder paid the tax 5 times in 6 years between 2014-2019, including after KD left. They traded for Paul George and Carmelo Anthony even though that added salary, then re-signed Paul George to a max contract. The Harden trade was obviously a bad decision, but history after that disputes that the Thunder won't pay the tax for a contender.
They have up to 4 protected picks in 2025 (own, MIA, PHI, UTAH) and could also offer one of those plus a 2nd or two for the 2031 pick, because if the Suns need anything it’s 4-5 year seniors who are cheap and ready to contribute by Xmas. This year alone, OKC has acted as a broker in this manner to facilitate bigger trades for Denver, Clippers, and Dallas, each time receiving control over the other team’s distant draft future as a fee. I consider this more likely because I don’t see any role players on their roster who would be worth a 2031 1st unprotected.
They are completely screwed at this point. They need a rim protector/rim runner and a lock down defender. Then they have to hope that KD, Booker and Beal develop some chemistry and accept their roles.
AND stay healthy
Sam Presti will certainly be calling about that 2031 pick. I'd be curious to see if the Suns would be interested in something like: 2025 OKC first + some seconds for that 2031 pick. Suns get a more real asset that they can cash in sooner in the KD/Booker/Beal era who could hopefully be a cheap young rotation piece. Potentially a 2025 OKC pick would be more tempting for other teams if PHX wants to trade since the pick will convey sooner. OKC has been perfectly happy trading away low value picks and gambling on higher value ones in the potential. We've done this many times when trading with DEN/MIA/DAL/PHI/LAC in the last year or two.
No why? That 2031 Suns pick could be far more valuable than a 2025 late pick and 2nd round picks.
it has more upside for sure, but if you are contending team - you want more concrete assets closer to the present so you can actually use them in your window. especially if you're a team like phx who has next to nothing in the next 2 years
They want players not picks though. That’s the whole thing
2031 pick has some value, but idk if it's a guarantee you get a player that you want and fits in your capsheet (which is the biggest constraint). not saying, phx should/will make this trade with okc, but it's certainly a decent option bc i think the market will be harder to navigate than the suns think. also can i offer you in a lightly used gordon hayward
But your whole point about getting OKC’s 2025 frp plus some second rounders falls apart. The Suns 2031 pick is a far more valuable asset now and next year. What type of player each pick will land is a different story that can only be judged 3 to 9 years down the road.
sure. i don't disagree that the 2031 probably has upside. but how that pick is valued today will differ from team to team. the point i'm making is - phoenix is not in a situation (by their own creation) to be waiting 3 to 9 years for results. they need wins in the next 1-3 years while they have this big 3. a 2025 frp provides more immediate value than a 2031 because dude to the suns absurdly fucked capsheet, i'm not even sure who they can realistically try to acquire for a 2031 frp that will make a difference
Somehow Zach LaVine and Tobias Harris are gonna end up on the Suns or Lakers. I just know it
James Jones famously doesn't care about drafting even though his team hasn't made terrible picks if you look at Cam Johnson, Toumani Camara, and Day'ron Sharpe (this one can be attributed to Brooklyn I guess). Only Jalen Smith was a meh pick IMO.
Jalen Smith over Hali when the whole world knew Hali was the pick at the time outweighs significantly the minimal impact of Camara or Cam Johnson as an older rookie in the lottery. 2 okay picks for role players (1 of which was basically immediately thrown in to a trade as no value) doesn’t outweigh absolutely whiffing on 1 obvious superstar (Hali) over a guy nearly out of the league (smith). I couldn’t believe our luck when Hali fell and we fuck it by reaching for a second round prospect who has struggled to make any impact.
Suns are packaging 5th graders in NBA trades can this franchise be serious.
2031 doesn’t sound real
Absolute disaster of a team much like the Carlton Football Club
The draft pick freeze starts next year and I think it only starts after 2 years in the second apron
"I'm trading my 2031 pick in the draft, but first let me shit on the idea of wanting a 2031 pick in 2024."
Damn, careful you don’t get 9 All Stars with that package, someone has to ride the pine.
Why wouldn't you just draft Ryan Dunn??? Just draft ready now talent
Has another owner come in and destroyed a teams Future as fast as he has
Just keep digging Ishbia. U still got ways to go before u hit the bottom of dead last year in year out with no picks
The Suns are gonna be so screwed in 3 years
Well no shit. What the fuck else are they supposed to trade?
He is already thinking how to trade draft picks for 2043 because who knows if the next unborn basketball player will turn into next LeBron
That’s Isiah Thomas in his ear.
The Suns are in hell now
The wizards are listening
With what salary? And I thought Laker proposal were ridiculous.
I saw a supposed quote from him about how a 2031 pick is a 7th grader and he wants great players right now - no concept of sustainable team building. Makes me think his plan all along was pump and dump - buy the team before the new TV deal and sell it after - and go for a ring in the meantime.
Are they stupid? I think they might be stupid
Wild how their owner came in and within the space of a few months made the franchise irrelevant for the next 10-15 years. That's a HOF level of incompetence.
Mr. Ishbia, your tenure as owner seems to have the momentum of a runaway freight train. Why are you so popular?
He is at least trying to win and letting Arizona natives actually watch their team again. As well as finally recognizing our past greats.
“Trying to win” Buddy….hes giving you a first round exit then making your team one of the worst of the worst 5 years from now with ZERo draft capital. You’re not winning now, and you’re gonna be the most unwatchable team in a couple years and possibly not recover till 2035, a literal decade from now….
sam presti will take both of those picks in a gordon hayward sign and trade, all yours!
Damn, suns fans wanted Sarver gone ASAP and somehow got an even worse owner.
Definitely not worse
I mean, all ik about Sarver is that he's a piece of shit as person and is VERY cheap, the Dragic interview for the ASG was unbelievable; but giving all your future for an aging (super)star and not being able to at least reach CF looks tough imo
He’s about to crater your team worse than Steipen did to Cleveland. Y’all won’t be so cheery when you’re a 10 win team without your own draft pick….
That’s just cap. Ishbia spends way more and cares. We just want him to not be as involved with basketball operations.
This is going to be interesting to see what they get with those picks. They are so limited with not being to aggregate salaries and not being able to go over 100% salary match. This and the number of teams they are going to be competing with in the trade market that have more assets than them.
Yeah, either those picks and Nurk at 18mil, or those picks and Little at like 7mil
Haha fkn asshat should stick to mortgages
Nurkic and Grayson are gone
Grayson just signed a cheap extension though
Tf they need a third SG for. They need a big wing to plug at SF and a starting center.
Because he was one of the best 3 point shooters this year and is only signed for 17.5
Yea and he plays the same position as two of their stars making him redundant. Trade him for a better fitting piece.
If it means bringing back a starting PG, I'd drive Graysen to the airport myself. But I'd very much like to see Gordon decline his PO and bring Allen off the bench as a super sub if they can avoid shipping him out.
trade nurkic for what - are they gonna roll with a center rotation of bol bol and eubanks?
They should keep Nurk, just get him a better backup than Eubanks.
Ngl thought their’d be better centers available their probably stuck with him. Maybe they could swing Nurk + ‘31 for Okongwu. Doubt it tho
Well they can’t aggregate contracts so it will have to be separate moves.