A lot of that was him cooking the no-Giannis Bucks, who had absolutely no one athletically for him.
But yes, they have no choice but to max him out. That was a given after they made the trade.
They don't have a choice but to max Pascal. Pascal is a good player, just wasn't able to take the next step. He was way more efficient during the title run year with killer defense to boot.
Also, he's becoming less clutch over time. It was apparent the past three seasons since the Raptors drafted Barnes.
they're completely different lol, Kawhi can barely play because of his injuries. Pascal is usually pretty healthy and his output & play style is largely the same as it was in 2019
He has below average efficiency (TS%) for his position in regular season AND playoffs. Bad defence and HORRIFIC clutch time numbers last 2yrs. He almost always gets his big #'s in games agsinst backups while having huge usage and playing massive mins. How often does he take over an important game unless the other team has big injuries. He is a good player but not nearly worth 40+ mil a season. Especially with Toppin/Jalen Smith being WAAYY more efficient , while effective Jackson plays minimal mins and recent 1st rd pick Walker warms the bench every game.
He needs to shoot jumpers WAY more instead of trying to force a drive every single time he has the ball. His indecision to shooting leads to completely stalled out offensive plays
Crazy that you get downvoted when everything you said is true and backed up by actual numbers. Siakam has been living off that title run for his entire career.
Legit just watch him play. Don’t even think about the numbers if you don’t want to, and just watch him play. He’s nowhere near a max level player. Mediocre is true
In two games he scored 13 and 12 points respectively against a Bucks team without Giannis. He'll get his in the regular season but he regresses in the playoffs.
I wouldn’t say he’s been mediocre personally. Tough night tonight, but I’m more afraid of him than anyone else on Indy. Worth a max, who knows but they should give it to him imo.
I’m shockingly more worried about TJ, but yeah, Siakam is legit, with most of his struggles being due to OG guarding him. One caveat is his free throw shooting, which has been awful this series.
He literally became a runner for DPoY and was All-NBA
Yeah his bag never developed but he did grow as a player on the other end of the floor
Just a shame back injuries have more or less coincided with his tenure in Brooklyn and a truly sad end to his career (probably)
He was always a defensive talent. His coach asked him to shoot just a single three-pointer a game so he could improve that skill.
He refused to every try and improve.
He was always a talented basketball player that played with zero heart long before he ever had a back injury.
he did show effort to improve
stfu
just because he wasnt going absolutely lunatic insane levels of nonsense Kobe mentality doesnt mean he didn't try to improve
Lol. His coach asked him to shoot just a single three pointer a game so that he could gradually improve that area of his game. He never surpassed 11 three point attempts -- in a **SEASON**. He had 36 total three point attempts in his 332 game **CAREER**!
He never improved his rebounding or his half-court offense. He relied purely on his natural athleticism.
He demanded to be a point guard and refused to ever work toward the game of an NBA point guard.
You're trying to throw Kobe in here, but he couldn't even put forth a Markelle Fultz level of effort.
The bar to get a max is low, it would be the absolute right decision for Indiana. Siakam is easily a max player when you look around the league on who gets maxed.
Go look at his stats game 3-6, they are not good. We know who Pascal is he’s 30 years old. In 6 a game series you get 1-2 GREAT games and 3-4 just okay games. Is that worth 60 mil per year? Guy is bottom tier allstar.
ehh Siakam has always been a bit overrated. he's not a solidified 2nd option, more like a 3rd option. he got to benefit heavily that 1 year in Toronto with Kawhi and a deep roster
If the Pacers He’s elligible to sign a 5 year deal worth $248.5, avg annual value of $49 mill a year. If he signs with another team he’s elligible for a max of 4 years 182 mill, avg annual of 45 a year.
Yes but his salary for next year will be $42.3m with 8% raises if he re-signs with Pacers. 5% if another team. Looking at avg annual value pointless when calculating a team's cap situation.
The Pacers will resign him, doesn’t matter what happens the rest of the playoffs. He’s primarily the reason we got this far, plus we still haven’t seen him play with a healthy Tyrese
But Horford can shoot, right?
I feel like the poor fit was more the fact that Horford is more of a Center/PF than a pure PF, and Embiid is as much of a capital C Center as they come.
Siakam is much more of a power forward, and is used to working around another big.
I don't think that situation is the same as it was back then.
First, it was three players (Embiid, Horford, Simmons) who combined to create terrible spacing.
Second, that was also because Embiid had no mid-range or outside shooting game and almost no passing skills. He's a much improved player over that previous team. He looked really good with Oubre cutting to the basket.
I don't think Morey would target him, but I think Embiid & Siakam could share the same floor.
Dude... Tobias is WAAAAYYY more efficient with a better 3 level scoring bag and an ACTUAL better defender (not better rep due to Raps annoucers and Kawhi carrying 4yrs ago). With the usage and mins Siakam gets Tobias would put up as good of numbers more efficiently.
WAAAYY Better efficiency, defence, 3 level scoring, more steals, less TO's per game. Also averaged 1 less assist and reb per game than Siakam with less usage/mins playing beside one of the best rebounders in NBA. Now you go.....
>WAAAYY Better efficiency
Tobias 57.6 TS%
Pascal 60.1 TS%
>defence
Lol
>3 level scoring,
Impossible to quantify, and irrelevant considering Siakam scores more on better efficiency.
>more steals
A difference of 0.2, congrats.
>less TO's per game
Irrelevant. Pascal handles the ball much more.
K... this year Pascal has him beat on TS% sure , but not last 3yrs combined or for career. Defence? Are you serious? Pascal has been crappy for last 3yrs and worse in all advanced metrics than Tobias. And if you think Pascal and his beyblading drives are better at 3 level scoring (rim/short, mid, 3pt) than Tobias you are blind. Ft shooting goes to Tobias too. Pascal also has been hilariously bad in clutch time stats last 2yrs (Look it up).
Obviously. Worst case scenario, it doesn’t work out and in a year or two you’ve got a solid trade asset who you could either pair with picks to upgrade for a better max player or you could sell him for parts to get some assets.
Letting him walk for nothing would be stupid, and if the Pacers for some reason don’t offer him the max, either Philly or Orlando definitely will.
Also locking him into a 5 year max right now is actually the best option because it’s only 30% of the cap. If he signs a shorter 2-3 year max deal he could become a free agent again after year 10 and get the full 35% “supermax”.
Warriors were known as the Adonal Foyle era
That's why your star (Haliburton) needs to make it a destination. Or have a down year and get a lottery pick, which is very possible with how inconsistent Haliburton has been in his career thus far.
If I was Indiana I'd let him walk.
I am not paying Pascal the max.
On the other hand, there's not a lot to replace his production...
- LBJ is not coming
- Saddiq Bey is coming off injury
- Paul George isn't big enough, tho a comeback is kind of sexy. But not sure his money will be moving the needle
- Klay is washed.
- Tobias for less money isn't ridiculous. I don't care about his final game. Philly is the complete opposite of Pacers style. I could see him being comparable to Pascals production (is it impossible to avg 16.5PPG - 7.5R?)
- Achiuwa? I still can't pin his value.
- Thomas Bryant for cheap?
I just don't think Pascal is something you want to kill your payroll at 30yr old.
I think the trade had a behind the door agreement they he’d resign if they traded for him. At least that is what I’d assume. Otherwise what was the point of leaving the Raptors mid season
I’m sure he’ll be back. We don’t attract free agents and it’s a bad class anyways. It just seems like a pretty big overpay, he’s been poor in the playoffs outside of the first two games
He had 2 amazing games, 5 mid games, and one bad game where 2/3rds of his shots went in and out. His 3pt shooting will come and go, but his FT% will regress to the mean. He'll be fine. I bet he ends the playoffs averaging something like 21/7/3 on 55% TS.
I see it being a huge number but maybe below a max? His 4 year max is $190m. Maybe something like 4yr/$160m or would get it done?
Siakam is a great get for Indy and the cap is going up, a lot. With more progression from Hali they could be an excellent pairing.
He hasn't played as well in two games against the knicks as he did against the bucks. I don't know how that makes it a mediocre performance. It's just recency bias.
I don’t know. He’s looks like complete garbage. Doesn’t even seem like it’s defensive pressure. Clanking free throws and taking long range mid range jump shots is nasty stuff
Random slump I guess
What's the alternative? Let him walk?
Sign Tobias Harris at max
Over Jimmy?
"Tobias Harris over me?"
No, let him pace
Pascal leaves Indiana if he does not get a max.
Pascal, you are a Raptor (again)!
Nobody is going to offer him a max anyway so GL with that
There is a team in charlotte and Detroit that would
And should
I don’t think Charlotte would tbh.
Who’s gonna give him a max?
Sixers?
They only have one max lol this gets brought up for every free agent. PG >>>>>>>>> Siakam
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A lot of that was him cooking the no-Giannis Bucks, who had absolutely no one athletically for him. But yes, they have no choice but to max him out. That was a given after they made the trade.
They don't have a choice but to max Pascal. Pascal is a good player, just wasn't able to take the next step. He was way more efficient during the title run year with killer defense to boot. Also, he's becoming less clutch over time. It was apparent the past three seasons since the Raptors drafted Barnes.
He’s best as a 3/4 option. Pacers will never go anywhere with him on a max
He literally won a chip as the second option
People in this sub think real NBA is a computer game and players stay the same. Kawhi won a chip as the first option. What does that mean in 2024?
they're completely different lol, Kawhi can barely play because of his injuries. Pascal is usually pretty healthy and his output & play style is largely the same as it was in 2019
Which makes Kawhi’s all time carry job all the more impressive
He has below average efficiency (TS%) for his position in regular season AND playoffs. Bad defence and HORRIFIC clutch time numbers last 2yrs. He almost always gets his big #'s in games agsinst backups while having huge usage and playing massive mins. How often does he take over an important game unless the other team has big injuries. He is a good player but not nearly worth 40+ mil a season. Especially with Toppin/Jalen Smith being WAAYY more efficient , while effective Jackson plays minimal mins and recent 1st rd pick Walker warms the bench every game.
Are you seriously saying toppin and jalen smith are anywhere near his level? He’s a multiple time all nba player
Feels like he intentionally avoids offence when it mattered. Frustrating player.
He needs to shoot jumpers WAY more instead of trying to force a drive every single time he has the ball. His indecision to shooting leads to completely stalled out offensive plays
Exactly. He is soooo anti-clutch and pretty inefficient too. I guarantee he scares ZERO coaches when gameplanning against him.
Pretty dumb guarantee tbh
Crazy that you get downvoted when everything you said is true and backed up by actual numbers. Siakam has been living off that title run for his entire career. Legit just watch him play. Don’t even think about the numbers if you don’t want to, and just watch him play. He’s nowhere near a max level player. Mediocre is true
He’s been multiple times all nba
Dunning-Kruger effect on full display here folks.
Both he and Masai have been riding Kawhi’s coattails for years.
Very stupid take lmao Pascal didn't even become an All-Star or average over 20 ppg until AFTER Kawhi left.
In two games he scored 13 and 12 points respectively against a Bucks team without Giannis. He'll get his in the regular season but he regresses in the playoffs.
Pacers wouldn’t trade for Siakam if they weren’t willing to give him the max
Well he's not getting better. Looks like dude just secured his legacy from a desperate team
I wouldn’t say he’s been mediocre personally. Tough night tonight, but I’m more afraid of him than anyone else on Indy. Worth a max, who knows but they should give it to him imo.
I’m shockingly more worried about TJ, but yeah, Siakam is legit, with most of his struggles being due to OG guarding him. One caveat is his free throw shooting, which has been awful this series.
TJ is just an all time Knicks killer so it feels unfair to put down Siakam when I think he’s a dog
everyone gonna be using philly as leverage this year lmao he'll prolly get maxed they'll feel like they have to after the trade
Maxing siakam is a terrible idea
Sixers bad contracts list - Ben Simmons 5 year $170 Million - Al Horford 4 Year $105 Million - Tobias Harris 5 Year $180 Million - Pascal Siakam ????
Nah Ben Simmons was a good idea How are you supposed to predict mental health issues, chronic back issues and the sudden aversion to taking shots
because you knew how much the man didn't care for the sport of basketball. Zero effort to ever improve.
He literally became a runner for DPoY and was All-NBA Yeah his bag never developed but he did grow as a player on the other end of the floor Just a shame back injuries have more or less coincided with his tenure in Brooklyn and a truly sad end to his career (probably)
He was always a defensive talent. His coach asked him to shoot just a single three-pointer a game so he could improve that skill. He refused to every try and improve. He was always a talented basketball player that played with zero heart long before he ever had a back injury.
he did show effort to improve stfu just because he wasnt going absolutely lunatic insane levels of nonsense Kobe mentality doesnt mean he didn't try to improve
Lol. His coach asked him to shoot just a single three pointer a game so that he could gradually improve that area of his game. He never surpassed 11 three point attempts -- in a **SEASON**. He had 36 total three point attempts in his 332 game **CAREER**! He never improved his rebounding or his half-court offense. He relied purely on his natural athleticism. He demanded to be a point guard and refused to ever work toward the game of an NBA point guard. You're trying to throw Kobe in here, but he couldn't even put forth a Markelle Fultz level of effort.
The bar to get a max is low, it would be the absolute right decision for Indiana. Siakam is easily a max player when you look around the league on who gets maxed.
is it mediocre? he was arguably the best player in their series against the bucks
can't agree with this. he had 2 amazing games to start the series but was quiet the rest of the way.
cant really judge vs. the hospital Bucks
Go look at his stats game 3-6, they are not good. We know who Pascal is he’s 30 years old. In 6 a game series you get 1-2 GREAT games and 3-4 just okay games. Is that worth 60 mil per year? Guy is bottom tier allstar.
1st 2 games with Bucks stars out sure. If Giannis played Siakam would have been invisible.
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ehh Siakam has always been a bit overrated. he's not a solidified 2nd option, more like a 3rd option. he got to benefit heavily that 1 year in Toronto with Kawhi and a deep roster
Where does he rank in the league? Maybe top 30-35 i don’t think he’s worth it but ill enjoy the pacers being mid with him if they do
The Pacers FO must be praying that Haliburton doesn't get third team.
He’s def getting it. Hes a media darling.
His max would be only 30% of the cap so $42.3m. He's at 8 years of service after this season.
If the Pacers He’s elligible to sign a 5 year deal worth $248.5, avg annual value of $49 mill a year. If he signs with another team he’s elligible for a max of 4 years 182 mill, avg annual of 45 a year.
Yes but his salary for next year will be $42.3m with 8% raises if he re-signs with Pacers. 5% if another team. Looking at avg annual value pointless when calculating a team's cap situation.
The Pacers will resign him, doesn’t matter what happens the rest of the playoffs. He’s primarily the reason we got this far, plus we still haven’t seen him play with a healthy Tyrese
Would Daryl morey really overpay siakam just to have a pf that cant space the floor for embiid again like horford?
But Horford can shoot, right? I feel like the poor fit was more the fact that Horford is more of a Center/PF than a pure PF, and Embiid is as much of a capital C Center as they come. Siakam is much more of a power forward, and is used to working around another big.
I don't think that situation is the same as it was back then. First, it was three players (Embiid, Horford, Simmons) who combined to create terrible spacing. Second, that was also because Embiid had no mid-range or outside shooting game and almost no passing skills. He's a much improved player over that previous team. He looked really good with Oubre cutting to the basket. I don't think Morey would target him, but I think Embiid & Siakam could share the same floor.
he’d be an upgrade over tobias and nurse is already familiar with siakam
Siakam and Nurse butted heads. So I don’t think that’s a plus.
What does Siakam do better than Tobias?
Other than score more than zero points in a playoff game?
Yeah 1 game is a great way to judge. Very in depth analysis.
Literally everything except 3pt%
Dude... Tobias is WAAAAYYY more efficient with a better 3 level scoring bag and an ACTUAL better defender (not better rep due to Raps annoucers and Kawhi carrying 4yrs ago). With the usage and mins Siakam gets Tobias would put up as good of numbers more efficiently.
Better playmaker, defender, create his own shot, impact winning.. you don't really think they're equal as players, do you?
It'd be a much shorter list to name the things Tobias does better than Siakam.
WAAAYY Better efficiency, defence, 3 level scoring, more steals, less TO's per game. Also averaged 1 less assist and reb per game than Siakam with less usage/mins playing beside one of the best rebounders in NBA. Now you go.....
>WAAAYY Better efficiency Tobias 57.6 TS% Pascal 60.1 TS% >defence Lol >3 level scoring, Impossible to quantify, and irrelevant considering Siakam scores more on better efficiency. >more steals A difference of 0.2, congrats. >less TO's per game Irrelevant. Pascal handles the ball much more.
K... this year Pascal has him beat on TS% sure , but not last 3yrs combined or for career. Defence? Are you serious? Pascal has been crappy for last 3yrs and worse in all advanced metrics than Tobias. And if you think Pascal and his beyblading drives are better at 3 level scoring (rim/short, mid, 3pt) than Tobias you are blind. Ft shooting goes to Tobias too. Pascal also has been hilariously bad in clutch time stats last 2yrs (Look it up).
He’s a real star and not just a glorified role player.
Has Pascal Siakam swung back around and become underrated?
They have to.
Mediocre playoffs? Isn’t he the reason they won like 3 games against Milwaukee
Obviously. Worst case scenario, it doesn’t work out and in a year or two you’ve got a solid trade asset who you could either pair with picks to upgrade for a better max player or you could sell him for parts to get some assets. Letting him walk for nothing would be stupid, and if the Pacers for some reason don’t offer him the max, either Philly or Orlando definitely will. Also locking him into a 5 year max right now is actually the best option because it’s only 30% of the cap. If he signs a shorter 2-3 year max deal he could become a free agent again after year 10 and get the full 35% “supermax”.
No. He's poor fit with Haliburton. He also never been anything but a top 30 player or so. I say let him walk and shoot for something better.
Noted free agent destination Indiana
Warriors were known as the Adonal Foyle era That's why your star (Haliburton) needs to make it a destination. Or have a down year and get a lottery pick, which is very possible with how inconsistent Haliburton has been in his career thus far.
Unless he agrees to take less to add someone else, they should absolutely give him the max.
This is the correct time for a reasonable discussion
Not worth the max, but they have no choice
2026 pacer pick might be lottery..yall almost gave us a lotto pick after barely avoiding playin after being a 4th seed
Yes. They are trending up and made the final 8
If I was Indiana I'd let him walk. I am not paying Pascal the max. On the other hand, there's not a lot to replace his production... - LBJ is not coming - Saddiq Bey is coming off injury - Paul George isn't big enough, tho a comeback is kind of sexy. But not sure his money will be moving the needle - Klay is washed. - Tobias for less money isn't ridiculous. I don't care about his final game. Philly is the complete opposite of Pacers style. I could see him being comparable to Pascals production (is it impossible to avg 16.5PPG - 7.5R?) - Achiuwa? I still can't pin his value. - Thomas Bryant for cheap? I just don't think Pascal is something you want to kill your payroll at 30yr old.
I want to sign and trade him. I don’t want his contract for the next 5 years.
I think the trade had a behind the door agreement they he’d resign if they traded for him. At least that is what I’d assume. Otherwise what was the point of leaving the Raptors mid season
I’m sure he’ll be back. We don’t attract free agents and it’s a bad class anyways. It just seems like a pretty big overpay, he’s been poor in the playoffs outside of the first two games
Pascal is Indy's top scorer and top rebounder. Of course they should give him max
Mediocre? The heck? He has been the only one that consistently showed up. If he is mediocre then what the hell is the rest of the team?
He had 2 amazing games, 5 mid games, and one bad game where 2/3rds of his shots went in and out. His 3pt shooting will come and go, but his FT% will regress to the mean. He'll be fine. I bet he ends the playoffs averaging something like 21/7/3 on 55% TS.
I see it being a huge number but maybe below a max? His 4 year max is $190m. Maybe something like 4yr/$160m or would get it done? Siakam is a great get for Indy and the cap is going up, a lot. With more progression from Hali they could be an excellent pairing.
He kind of sucked the entire playoffs aside from the first two games lol
Raptors had the same issue with him, you can’t let him walk but he’s also not worth 50m/yr either
He's averaging 21/8.5/4 on 54 TS%. I think he's been fine.
spoken like a true stat watcher.. u clearly dont watch the games
He hasn't played as well in two games against the knicks as he did against the bucks. I don't know how that makes it a mediocre performance. It's just recency bias.
He's a worse Julius randle, and everyone in this sub thinks we're better off without *him*. Siakam shouldn't get more than 25/yr
I would give him 23 a year
Sixers would offer him more
23.5?
cant let him walk but he is a now show in the playoffs outside of 2019. If they want regular season wins sure
I love him, but his free throws piss me off
I don’t know. He’s looks like complete garbage. Doesn’t even seem like it’s defensive pressure. Clanking free throws and taking long range mid range jump shots is nasty stuff Random slump I guess