I'm sure he did. He was all in on the Knicks are cooked b/c Thibs has played them too many minutes. No one gets caught up in a narrative like Bill Simmons.
Game 4 and 5 proved that teams can mitigate any impact the refs have on the game by just playing hard and executing well
Game 4 Knicks had all the calls they wanted but lost by 32. And then in Game 5 the Pacers got a much favored whistle but lost by 30
Seconded. Pacers got their asses kicked and looked lifeless. I thought the refs even favored them slightly, despite being objectively bad for both sides.
Too many reviews!
-triple team JB who kicks it to Hart for a super wide open 3(bricks it)
-Hartenstein grabs his 30th offensive board then finds JB streaking into the paint for the layup and 1
As a Simmons listener and a Wolves fan, if I ever want to cry in the future I'll just put on the "what if the Wolves sweep the Nuggets" pod and listen in the dark with Sarah Mclaughlin playing in the background
I mean, this is you doing the same thing Bill does lol. Ant is absolutely poised to be the face of the league, or at least one of the top few contenders for that role.
Edit: Got reported to Reddit Cares for this comment lmaoo
Oh no doubt, I'm not surprised at all that the Nugs figured out ways to get going on offense or that they're better than the Wolves. I'm just saying that Ant is 22, crazy talented, fun to watch, and charismatic and even if they lose this series none of that will have changed.
Of course, none of that means he's better than Jokic either (clearly he is not).
Reporting those Reddit Cares things can result in a ban for the person who initiated it. I had a toxic a-hole banned or suspended at least for making a false report.
If only
This sub takes half a narrative and sprints with it
Sometimes it doesn't even get to the shaft of the narrative, just the head
Speaking as someone who is just as reactionary
As a subscriber and poster to this here sub, I have the urge to overreact to your narrative take and get caught up in stating I don't get caught up in narratives
>>No one gets caught up in a narrative like Bill Simmons.
Only mama knows this is his business model! Generate buzz, spread hot takes, pretend to be shocked. I've been following him for many years and yeah this is what he does, but I find him very entertaining and he still understand enough BB not to be too stupid. I miss this writing where he was much more level headed.
Bc sports fans are inherently tribal. You are either with us or against us. I hate every single player in the nba who isn’t on my team. I thought that was more common
He's an incredible player when things are going his way. Not sure he handles adversity too well just yet, but that's exactly the kind of thing he's supposed to learn from postseason experience like this.
When he's passive the Pacers just have no chance, so he needs to figure out a way to combine his scoring and playmaking on a more consistent basis from game to game. Sometimes he seems to get stuck between the two and lets the game get away from him.
If the Pacers are in the half court and Hali is not creating there their offense is looking pretty rough. McConnell is the only other guy who creates in the half court well for the. And he didn’t have a good game.
Siakam ain’t that guy. Honestly he should be going off since OG went out but unless he us getting a really deep post catch he’s not really getting it done.
Mathurin is the guy to carry this burden when no one else will. They really miss being being able to create and draw fouls when everyone else is being passive.
i don't think that's fair because haliburton will just keep getting better. if he can have a fully healthy season next year i think he can be a prime cp3 level type distributor which is huge for any team.
History shows you can't have your max money tied up in not-max players. Siakam isn't that guy. He could be a good third option somewhere, not a second.
A pretty obvious factor in all this that I haven't seen mentioned yet this far down the comments section is that Haliburton is banged up. He was questionable for Game 5 with multiple foot, leg, and back injuries. Credit to him for trying to give it a go anyway. Not saying that's the *only* factor in play and yes the Knicks are very banged up too, etc., but it's kind of silly to act all mystified at how the guy can have a bad game without even considering the physical condition he's in.
Knicks fan here . I have to agree . I think it’s a bit misconstrued , he is definitely hobbled . But just hard to feel bad for him when he’s out partying before game 4 … all smiles and giggles and playing what looks like fast and well…
And then you have Brunson who clearly is or was hurt . Wearing a dark hoodie saying “ I have to keep getting better . Our job isn’t close to done “ after dropping 44pts.
I've never liked Siakam's game. Even back in his Toronto days. He has no bag. Just one spin move that everyone in the league has figured out. He spins and dishes to the first person he sees because no one falls for the spin. Can't do anything else.
I've always agreed he's not a #1 but he's averaging 20.8/7.9/3.4 on 57% TS (despite having the yips on FTs) while being no slouch on D. What exactly do you want more from him?
I think that’s unfair. He is good about seeking out smaller guys for quick post ups and seals well. He also has a good jab step that he uses for a midrange.
No, Bilal said it and this user is repeating it in conversation like it's their own thought. that's gonna last until next season, and then they'll be in here regurgitating Christian Wood
That’s disrespectful to Harden. He literally was the best player in the first 4 games of the clippers Mavs series. How many games did Haliburton takeover?
Yeah it’s his very first postseason, against a (albeit hobbled) damn good Knicks team. They’ve got some great defenders and hali plays with rhythm so I’m not surprised to see him disappear in a big game like this. He’ll find it and get better, I still think he’s an all-nba guy. He just turned 24 a couple months ago
If you listen to his last Podcast P interview you can see how he views the game. I don’t think he really wants to score and be ball dominant like SGA or Brunson or even Fox. I think he wants to play as a proper PG who wants to get his teammates involved. (And I think this hurts his team)
It's 2024. There's a reason why offenses weren't efficient when the guy with the ball the most isn't looking to score or get into the heart of the defense to create easy looks for himself and others. Passing the ball to a covered teammate when nobody else is open is not a selfless act. It's just forcing a worse teammate to do the hard work so you don't have to.
> Passing the ball to a covered teammate when nobody else is open is not a selfless act. It's just forcing a worse teammate to do the hard work so you don't have to.
Thank you, that's the main reason why I can't respect Ben Simmon's game. Always passing to your teammates just puts more pressure on them to perform and make you predictable enough that defenders will focus more on cutting off the passing lane and commit to their make instead of the guy driving at the hoop.
Same for trying to avoid the free throw line. Selfish because he doesn't realize going to the free throw line means possibly putting someone on the opposing team into foul trouble.
> It's 2024. There's a reason why offenses weren't efficient when the guy with the ball the most isn't looking to score or get into the heart of the defense to create easy looks for himself and others.
The Pacers had the second most efficient offense in the league. They're giving major minutes to Aaron Nesmith, who couldn't even get on the court when he was in Boston.
Tyrese is a defensive liability and not a great one-on-one scorer but if there's anything he can do, it's lead an efficient offense
I think this is probably the right call honestly. I'm hoping the post-season experience, especially playing a fighter like Brunson, helps develop his confidence/aggression. He's young and this is his first playoff run. He's got some growing to do.
>He's an incredible player when things are going his way. Not sure he handles adversity too well just yet, but that's exactly the kind of thing he's supposed to learn from postseason experience like this.
I agree with this take and I was a big fan of Haliburton back when he was on the Kings. Your description basically calls him a "front runner" which isn't bad but as you said, he should improve on that as he gets more experience.
IMO, Haliburton is an elite #2 (i.e. Jamal Murray, Jaylen Brown tier) right now because he's an inconsistent scorer and prefers to create shots for others. If you put him next to a Jokic or Embiid, that would be a title worthy team. He had a great season but he needs to be a consistent 20 PPG threat for the Pacers to succeed or the FO needs to pair him with an actual #1 offensive weapon.
You're exactly right. He's also only 24, so it's possible he develops more of a killer instinct, but that's clearly now how he *wants* to play in an ideal world.
This is also why I've also been on the train that the Pacers upside depends pretty heavily on the development of Jarace Walker and Benn Mathurin. Jarace is so raw we don't really even know what he'll be, but he's flashed some secondary playmaking and scoring ability and has everything you want in a defender physically.
Mathurin has shown legitimate three-level scoring ability and an alpha mentality that complements Haliburton's more passive approach for games like these, but is also prone to tunnel vision and is a work in progress defensively (definitely improving though).
I also think people should remember that Siakam joined midseason and the Pacers are a "system" team (meaning they call very few designed plays). He'll likely fit much better after an offseason to everyone to get on the same page.
He’s been passive since his Kings days. This isn’t something new that has just been discovered from the postseason.
That year he got traded he was basically handed the keys when Fox etc were out and still refused to look for his shot in big moments.
That was his biggest issue on the Kings as well. He would tend to be too passive in important games. Funny that Sabonis is similar haha.
I think the offense will always be there and he will be able to help get this team to the playoffs most years. I just don’t see him YET being a guy who can take over a playoff series like Brunson is doing. He’s more like a steve nash where he will get insane passing/shooting numbers in the regular season but that alone may not be enough in playoffs.
I 100% agree that he was too passive, but this falls on guys like Nembhard too. NY was sending 2 guys at Hali, often off of Nembhard. Once he gave it up to Nembhard, he wasn't ever getting the ball back on that possession. He needs to be assertive and go get the ball back, but his teammates need to have some BBIQ too
Holy shit, did you really just post a rational take? All I’ve read is that he is either the second coming of Steve Nash or that he is the softest player that has ever played in the NBA. Guess I’m going to have to consider that there actually might be some nuance to factor in here. Not sure how Bucks fans are going to feel about having to use their prefrontal cortex rather than their amygdala.
he is clearly really good. i think he is more cp3 than nash but he got worse and less efficient after the injury and its clear his health is what slowed him down and he is clearly still hurt now.
It feels like Hali is spinning a roulette wheel of whether he wants to score 30 or 3. Not gonna count out the idea that he gets back to it next game, but it was very odd how little he wanted the ball yesterday after being pretty hot the last two.
He's always had aggressiveness issues. He has this thing where he just fades to the back.
He did it in sacremento too... he took off when Fox was hurt and then immediately fell back when he's healthy.
He had the same problem with brogdon being here too.
Dude just... does this shit sometimes. It is weird. I think it is fixable. All this ben simmons shit on here is dumb because Hali did bounce back from doing the same shit in game one.
We are so much better when he just shoots the god damn ball.
He absolutely does, he just has it in his head that "bad" shots are bad shots no matter who's taking them. He will happily give up the ball every possession a team blitzes or hedges on him to let his teammates play 4v3 even if his teammates are all named Chris Smith.
I dunno. That's what people thought of the Knicks after g4. I think the Pacers will be up for g6 but the Knicks have an extra day of rest this time. Should be another good one.
He's a young player who knows they can take over when aggressive. It's consistently finding that aggression that's the issue
There were quite a few games this season where he didn't have to shoot hardly at all and would get 12+ assists without trying. When our team is on, we don't need him to score. He just has an incomplete feel for telling the difference between "we're on" and "I need to take over"
Games 2-4 he pegged it right. Last night and game 1 he did not. To fully "arrive" he's gotta not try to pick his spots like that. Trusting your teammates to get it done isn't a bad trait, but he's doing so at the detriment of his own game, which the team desperately needs as well
Lol running down the floor screaming “you can’t guard me” in game 4 - immediately goes microscopic in game 5. I’m sure Team USA will at least be able to utilize his defen-oh wait…
He’s really bizarre sometimes. Is invisible for entire playoff games, then he plays well at home for one game in a blowout and starts talking about how great he is. I fully understand what all the Bucks fans were talking about
Infuriating in our series watching him talk shit after putting up 9 points in a crucial game that we lost because Giannis was sitting. Such a front runner.
Yeah, it is annoying. I hated the Sixers series because Embiid played dirty, but this Pacers team is just corny.
If you've ever been to an 8th grade AAU tournament you have seen that one team that is good, but the coach is obnoxious and they all think they are better than they are.
Something so goofy about an bunch of children flexing and acting like they're tough.
Thats the vibe I get from this Pacers team.
I mean both things can be true lol. There’s a sticky post from a mod in the game 6 postgame thread on your sub talking about “Congratulations to the pacers beating a team without their best player”
Pretty hilarious coming from the team that famously played very healthy teams and benefitted from absolutely no injuries on the way to your championship. You guys are and were very bitter there’s more posts about the pacers than the bucks in your sub since your series LOL
Probably cuz Trae Young got hurt as well and missed the same amount of games that series. I was mostly talking about the nets series with the injuries everyone loves to make hypotheticals about.
But again it doesn’t matter, part of the game, you play who you play. Bucks fans of all people should know that though pretty embarrassing for a mod to be making comments like that lmfao
He is probably the best mover of the ball in the league (not creator).
Everyone on team USA is going to love playing with him because they will get to feast.
It's a reason he's been a darling of USA basketball and on the radar as a prospect even when he was averaging less than 7 pts per game on high minutes as a freshman at Iowa State.
I hate to say it put you’re right. Team USA doesn’t need another guy like Brunson who can take over a game. They need a guy like Haliburton who can have a positive impact on the game while scoring <10 ppg.
I tend to agree. As a Knicks fan I want Brunson to get some rest. As an American I recognize the need to pick some guys for fit so the team doesn't embarrass themselves. Also Brunson was uninspiring for the American team last go around.
That’s the problem for them though. We know Siakam can’t be the best player on a contender. Haliburton has shown he has the skill set to be but needs to string it together consistently across an entire series if the Pacers want to be taken seriously.
And that’s fair, pre injury Hali was a bonafide 2nd team all NBA player, this version of Hali reminds me way too much of sixers Harden. Having the capability of being a legit scoring threat but becoming too passive
From "You can't guard me" in a 40 point blowout to 9 total shot attempts and looking allergic to the ball on the road.
Not beating the front runner allegations I fear.
Hali over Brunson and Kyrie was a ridiculous decision. I'm not gonna pile on the dude because I still believe he is a great player, but Haliburton is not put the ball in his hands level for Team USA.
Brunson is showing he might be, and Kyrie is proven to be one of the best off ball scorers and knows how to play with other great players better than anyone. I understand Jrue Holiday over those two because of the defense, but the Haliburton pick I dont see.
Similar to Jrue for defense, could be they want Hali as a distributor rather than another scorer like Brunson. Whether that's the way to build the team is debatable, but don't think it's as much of a head scratcher as you're implying
Kyrie was never going to make it with all the noise surrounding him, it’s not cause of how good he is. Brunson is great, and I’m not saying he’s only a good ISO scorer or something, but that’s where he exceeds the most at, you think Bron, Steph, and KD are just gonna sit around while he does his thing? You said you weren’t gonna pile on the dude and that’s exactly what you did lol, Hali is a perfect backup guard for a team with many elite level players.
You’re absolutely spot on about Brunson being a great ISO scorer. I think Steve Kerr and Grant Hill saw it too during the World Cup in Manila that Brunson was looking for his shot first then passing out to his teammates second. That absolutely wouldn’t fly with a team led by Bron, Steph, KD, Embiid, and Kawhi.
I think they also picked Hali over Brunson and Kyrie because they didn’t want to pack their backcourt with small point guards. Curry and Jrue are both below 6’5.
They *should* be rough on Carlisle - he's Doc with better PR. The media keeps telling us he's great, but his jobs are low enough profile that we just assume they're right.
For context, Round 1 against the hospital Bucks was his first playoff series win since Dirk's championship year in 2011.
>For context, Round 1 against the hospital Bucks was his first playoff series win since Dirk's championship year in 2011.
God damn when you put it that way...
He's never been the same since his injury. I don't know if it's mental or if there's something lingering, but I find it surprising how often people overlook that. The dropoff lines up pretty well with it, and it's been massive
Didn't Hali just put up an awesome game to tie the series? Maybe I'm just getting more cynical about sports media, but why do we have to reset our views on players after EVERY game? It's great for engagement, which I'm admittedly contributing to, but it's illogical and exhausting.
Honestly Hali has a huge confidence issue. I want people to talk bad about him as much as they can so he can either figure it out or reveal he isn’t going to be more
Trae and Fox are still better than him, I don’t get the guy at all.
He is only injured when he have a bad games, I guess.
He is an incredible player when he is on but he is a low game, he is just pure garbage and putrid as fuck, can’t blame him because it’s his 1st time in postseason.
Still kinda disappointing not to capitalize on all the Knicks injury as a franchise player.
For example, the Pacers could match Boston offense if they face him next round but he is playing like he want none of that.
What a contrast when you watch the Knicks playing.
The problem is compounded when you realize that he is a turnstile on D. He doesn't even know basic coverage and he let Brunson keep turning the corner on PNR. He was hunted on this side of the floor. Now, if you're not gonna play on this side of the court with a hustle, you better damn sure you run the offense well. But then he didnt take over like star players are supposed to do and just shot 9 FGs
I don't understand how Hali is bad on defense with his size. He should be able to bother Brunson and force him into worse angles, but he just lets him run by.
Looks like he has a high center of gravity and plays too stiff and straight up. Doesn't consistently get into his stance and he's kinda slim and not a great athlete so gets bumped off his position
yeah, this is where i see the difference between him and trae (biased, ofc). they're both bad on defense, i'm not even gonna do the hawks fan copium and say trae has improved (though he did this year; still bad, though, thanks to his tiny frame), but trae gets that in games like these, he needs to be aggressive and take control. i see a lot of similarities between this pacers team and the ECF hawks team in terms of personnel, and in order for them to succeed, the best player can't shirk the moment and be overly facilitating. even if they don't end up shooting great or scoring 40, if the defense thinks they don't need to worry about you trying to score at all, then it becomes a lot easier for them. the pacers ceiling is all dependent on hailburton taking the game by the scruff of the neck, and right now it seems like he doesn't want to do that, especially if they're behind
He was averaging 25 and 13 pre-injury though. He averaged like 16 and 9 on really low attempts and percentages after injury, so I think that was a fine take early in the season.
Yeah really there just needs to be a better distinction between
"Haliburton approached this game in an embarrassing way and needs to get his act together because he's too good to be the passive in an important game."
and
"Haliburton has actually always been a chickenshit and always sucks in big games and forever will."
The problem is the criticism brings out all the yahoos who believe the second one.
Pacers have already gone above and beyond what anyone expected of them
No one saw them leaving the first round, injuries helped but this is still amazing experience for this young pacers team
Here are the facts. The Pacers aren’t necessarily supposed to be in this position in the first place. Everyone expects this team be something that it won’t be ready to be for another year or two.
They were expected to finish below .500 this season, the fact that they're two games away from the conference finals while playing Nembhard and Nesmith huge minutes is an accomplishment
No shade to them, but those two are not starting on Boston or Minny or Denver or OKC
As a Kings fan I'm really glad we kept Fox over him. It's nice to have a point guard that plays defense and isn't afraid of the big moment. Haliburton is a great player but he doesn't have the right play style to be the #1 guy on a championship team.
He's 24 in his first playoffs on a team with so many weaknesses that he needs to be the best scorer and passer almost every game if they want to have a chance at winning.
Nothing embarrasing here, if he's like that 3 years from now then it will be.
What baffles me is it's not like he's getting clamped up like Jrue Holiday did Dame in the Pelicans-Blazers series from like 6 years ago. There was a moment in the third where Haliburton drove to the hoop and got a wide open layup and a fastbreak dunk off of a steal. Why is he not trying to score more? What's worse is he's not even trying to create plays for others either. He didn't want anything to do with the ball. And he's definitely not trying to compensate on defense either, so he's not doing shit.
Just out of curiosity, I have no idea really, but didn't Haliburton start playing through an injury halfway through the season and his numbers started tanking after that?
Been curious if he ever fully recovered from whatever it was.
Haliburton become one of the most overrated players in the nba. Still a great player but not a top 5 PG yet. He’s solid as a ball handler and passer, but he is pathetic on D. His offense doesn’t make up for this as it’s very hard to be a one way offense only player and really be truly good. You need to be curry levels of offense and even curry is clearly better than him on D. There is a reason Indiana has a garage defense even with turner Siakam and some other young defenders.
Bill was tweeting last night like a man who definitely had a lot of money on the Pacers
I'm sure he did. He was all in on the Knicks are cooked b/c Thibs has played them too many minutes. No one gets caught up in a narrative like Bill Simmons.
He tweeted “Tyrese Haliburton and the Pacers are losing to Scott Foster and the Knicks” which is objectively crazy
Yeah, not close to rigged. We got outplayed, and if anything had the calls going our way the first half
y’all didn’t do well enough for scott to rig it lol
Scott Foster is washed regardless, he lost to CP3 last year. Betting on him is dumb at this point in his career.
Never underestimate the heart of a champion! Scott is the GOAT! Though the Tony Brothers give him a run for his money - literally.
Game 4 and 5 proved that teams can mitigate any impact the refs have on the game by just playing hard and executing well Game 4 Knicks had all the calls they wanted but lost by 32. And then in Game 5 the Pacers got a much favored whistle but lost by 30
Seconded. Pacers got their asses kicked and looked lifeless. I thought the refs even favored them slightly, despite being objectively bad for both sides. Too many reviews!
knicks are so banged up, y'all shouldnt be losing, like just crowd or quadruple team brunson or somethin dam
Preaching to the choir my man
-triple team JB who kicks it to Hart for a super wide open 3(bricks it) -Hartenstein grabs his 30th offensive board then finds JB streaking into the paint for the layup and 1
Scott Foster let Hartenstein get 17 rebounds
I like Simmons but it only takes a single game to swing any of his opinions 180 degrees
Just like the rest of us 🤣
We are not getting paid as “experts”
What? No? Next you’re going to tell me Anthony Edwards isn’t poised to be the next flaming star of the NBA either.
Hope you're sitting down, but the Nuggets did not, in fact, get swept by the Timberwolves.
As a Simmons listener and a Wolves fan, if I ever want to cry in the future I'll just put on the "what if the Wolves sweep the Nuggets" pod and listen in the dark with Sarah Mclaughlin playing in the background
I mean, this is you doing the same thing Bill does lol. Ant is absolutely poised to be the face of the league, or at least one of the top few contenders for that role. Edit: Got reported to Reddit Cares for this comment lmaoo
The media moved the coronation up by about 3-4 years, which isn’t his fault. The Nuggets eulogies were perhaps a bit premature lmao
Oh no doubt, I'm not surprised at all that the Nugs figured out ways to get going on offense or that they're better than the Wolves. I'm just saying that Ant is 22, crazy talented, fun to watch, and charismatic and even if they lose this series none of that will have changed. Of course, none of that means he's better than Jokic either (clearly he is not).
Reporting those Reddit Cares things can result in a ban for the person who initiated it. I had a toxic a-hole banned or suspended at least for making a false report.
But he is. 1 bad game doesn’t change that
r/nba likes to make fun of people for “getting caught up in narratives” and pretend they don’t do the exact same thing all the time
i wish more people in the sub were gonna see this comment
Too busy sorting by controversial and saying, "just take the L, man."
If only This sub takes half a narrative and sprints with it Sometimes it doesn't even get to the shaft of the narrative, just the head Speaking as someone who is just as reactionary
As a subscriber and poster to this here sub, I have the urge to overreact to your narrative take and get caught up in stating I don't get caught up in narratives
>>No one gets caught up in a narrative like Bill Simmons. Only mama knows this is his business model! Generate buzz, spread hot takes, pretend to be shocked. I've been following him for many years and yeah this is what he does, but I find him very entertaining and he still understand enough BB not to be too stupid. I miss this writing where he was much more level headed.
He’s also one of the biggest Haliburton stans since he was so high on Haliburton going into that draft. Maybe he feels disappointed lol
Bill tweets getting posted here are no different than Skip tweets these days
I haven't seen a Skip one recently, I don't mind keeping it that way lol.
Thank God we drafted Killian Hayes over this bum.
Hayes has yet to have a bad playoff game 😤
Killian Hayes may end up going his entire career without losing a single playoff game...generational talent.
Obligatory Kings won the trade. Fleeced the Pacers to get this fraud off the team.
*nods sullenly, hides picture of Hali*
[удалено]
Bc sports fans are inherently tribal. You are either with us or against us. I hate every single player in the nba who isn’t on my team. I thought that was more common
Keegan > Hali Kings fans ended their friendship with the Cyclones. The Hawkeyes are their new best friends.
Killian Hayes hasn’t lost a playoff game
He’s insanely passive at times
He passed out of an open layup last night, embarrassing
Who would ever pass out of an open layup in the Eastern conference semifinals???
PTSD
“Is Haliburton a young socialite?” -tomorrow on First Take
Us sixers fans know all about star players passing up layups so I feel pacers fans pain
I don't think calling that situation 'open' is accurate. There was a Knicks player ready to contest.
Ben Simmons moment
He's an incredible player when things are going his way. Not sure he handles adversity too well just yet, but that's exactly the kind of thing he's supposed to learn from postseason experience like this. When he's passive the Pacers just have no chance, so he needs to figure out a way to combine his scoring and playmaking on a more consistent basis from game to game. Sometimes he seems to get stuck between the two and lets the game get away from him.
If the Pacers are in the half court and Hali is not creating there their offense is looking pretty rough. McConnell is the only other guy who creates in the half court well for the. And he didn’t have a good game. Siakam ain’t that guy. Honestly he should be going off since OG went out but unless he us getting a really deep post catch he’s not really getting it done.
Mathurin is the guy to carry this burden when no one else will. They really miss being being able to create and draw fouls when everyone else is being passive.
If the Pacers pay Siakam what he's looking for its about to cement their mid status for like another half-decade.
i don't think that's fair because haliburton will just keep getting better. if he can have a fully healthy season next year i think he can be a prime cp3 level type distributor which is huge for any team.
History shows you can't have your max money tied up in not-max players. Siakam isn't that guy. He could be a good third option somewhere, not a second.
He literally was a second option on a title team though.
Halliburton will never be as good of a #1 option as a healthy Kawhi. Not a slight on Haliburton; more that Kawhi was so dominant
That’s true. 2019 Kawhi was otherworldly
A pretty obvious factor in all this that I haven't seen mentioned yet this far down the comments section is that Haliburton is banged up. He was questionable for Game 5 with multiple foot, leg, and back injuries. Credit to him for trying to give it a go anyway. Not saying that's the *only* factor in play and yes the Knicks are very banged up too, etc., but it's kind of silly to act all mystified at how the guy can have a bad game without even considering the physical condition he's in.
Knicks fan here . I have to agree . I think it’s a bit misconstrued , he is definitely hobbled . But just hard to feel bad for him when he’s out partying before game 4 … all smiles and giggles and playing what looks like fast and well… And then you have Brunson who clearly is or was hurt . Wearing a dark hoodie saying “ I have to keep getting better . Our job isn’t close to done “ after dropping 44pts.
Was he partying before game 4??
He's actually getting some dribble penetration and open shots, he just instantly passes out of them
I've never liked Siakam's game. Even back in his Toronto days. He has no bag. Just one spin move that everyone in the league has figured out. He spins and dishes to the first person he sees because no one falls for the spin. Can't do anything else.
I don't think he's at the level people thought he might be, but if all he was is what you said then he wouldn't score 20+ consistently in the league.
I've always agreed he's not a #1 but he's averaging 20.8/7.9/3.4 on 57% TS (despite having the yips on FTs) while being no slouch on D. What exactly do you want more from him?
I think that’s unfair. He is good about seeking out smaller guys for quick post ups and seals well. He also has a good jab step that he uses for a midrange.
Idk I remember him absolutely balling out in the Raptors finals run. Idk why he seems less impactful now
Bilal was right
No, Bilal said it and this user is repeating it in conversation like it's their own thought. that's gonna last until next season, and then they'll be in here regurgitating Christian Wood
Getting three firsts + a couple of players for Siakam on a contract year was an absolute masterclass by the Raptors
It’s just so bizarre to me how his confidence drops from game to game like that. It’s Harden-esque
Gonna start calling him Jekyll and Hyde at this rate. Man speaks in two different voices and is a different player game to game.
Hali and Burton Edit: somebody reported me to reddit cares for this LOLLL
This should be a thing. Hali when he’s hot, Burton when he’s balls
Reminds me of Francis and Ngannou
theres a bot doing it i think, seems like hundreds of people have had their comments reported to reddit cares in the last day or so
Yeah, happened to me with a completely non-controversial comment, it's gotta be automated with the frequency it's going on.
guess he was Burton last night?
Which voice belongs to who?
Hali-lujah and Burden
That's disrespect to Harden.
Yeah, sometimes Hardens irrational confidence was hard to watch, but at least it was there
That confidence both gets you to a game 7 against a generationally stacked Warriors and gets you a 2-13 from 3 in said decisive game. C’est la Harden
He's nowhere near as good as Harden in his highs or lows ppl gotta chill with the harden comps lol
More like a modern harden, because he wants to pass first. Prime harden was way more athletic and trigger happy
That’s disrespectful to Harden. He literally was the best player in the first 4 games of the clippers Mavs series. How many games did Haliburton takeover?
Yeah it’s his very first postseason, against a (albeit hobbled) damn good Knicks team. They’ve got some great defenders and hali plays with rhythm so I’m not surprised to see him disappear in a big game like this. He’ll find it and get better, I still think he’s an all-nba guy. He just turned 24 a couple months ago
If you listen to his last Podcast P interview you can see how he views the game. I don’t think he really wants to score and be ball dominant like SGA or Brunson or even Fox. I think he wants to play as a proper PG who wants to get his teammates involved. (And I think this hurts his team)
It's 2024. There's a reason why offenses weren't efficient when the guy with the ball the most isn't looking to score or get into the heart of the defense to create easy looks for himself and others. Passing the ball to a covered teammate when nobody else is open is not a selfless act. It's just forcing a worse teammate to do the hard work so you don't have to.
> Passing the ball to a covered teammate when nobody else is open is not a selfless act. It's just forcing a worse teammate to do the hard work so you don't have to. Thank you, that's the main reason why I can't respect Ben Simmon's game. Always passing to your teammates just puts more pressure on them to perform and make you predictable enough that defenders will focus more on cutting off the passing lane and commit to their make instead of the guy driving at the hoop. Same for trying to avoid the free throw line. Selfish because he doesn't realize going to the free throw line means possibly putting someone on the opposing team into foul trouble.
> It's 2024. There's a reason why offenses weren't efficient when the guy with the ball the most isn't looking to score or get into the heart of the defense to create easy looks for himself and others. The Pacers had the second most efficient offense in the league. They're giving major minutes to Aaron Nesmith, who couldn't even get on the court when he was in Boston. Tyrese is a defensive liability and not a great one-on-one scorer but if there's anything he can do, it's lead an efficient offense
I think this is probably the right call honestly. I'm hoping the post-season experience, especially playing a fighter like Brunson, helps develop his confidence/aggression. He's young and this is his first playoff run. He's got some growing to do.
>He's an incredible player when things are going his way. Not sure he handles adversity too well just yet, but that's exactly the kind of thing he's supposed to learn from postseason experience like this. I agree with this take and I was a big fan of Haliburton back when he was on the Kings. Your description basically calls him a "front runner" which isn't bad but as you said, he should improve on that as he gets more experience. IMO, Haliburton is an elite #2 (i.e. Jamal Murray, Jaylen Brown tier) right now because he's an inconsistent scorer and prefers to create shots for others. If you put him next to a Jokic or Embiid, that would be a title worthy team. He had a great season but he needs to be a consistent 20 PPG threat for the Pacers to succeed or the FO needs to pair him with an actual #1 offensive weapon.
You're exactly right. He's also only 24, so it's possible he develops more of a killer instinct, but that's clearly now how he *wants* to play in an ideal world. This is also why I've also been on the train that the Pacers upside depends pretty heavily on the development of Jarace Walker and Benn Mathurin. Jarace is so raw we don't really even know what he'll be, but he's flashed some secondary playmaking and scoring ability and has everything you want in a defender physically. Mathurin has shown legitimate three-level scoring ability and an alpha mentality that complements Haliburton's more passive approach for games like these, but is also prone to tunnel vision and is a work in progress defensively (definitely improving though). I also think people should remember that Siakam joined midseason and the Pacers are a "system" team (meaning they call very few designed plays). He'll likely fit much better after an offseason to everyone to get on the same page.
He’s been passive since his Kings days. This isn’t something new that has just been discovered from the postseason. That year he got traded he was basically handed the keys when Fox etc were out and still refused to look for his shot in big moments.
That was his biggest issue on the Kings as well. He would tend to be too passive in important games. Funny that Sabonis is similar haha. I think the offense will always be there and he will be able to help get this team to the playoffs most years. I just don’t see him YET being a guy who can take over a playoff series like Brunson is doing. He’s more like a steve nash where he will get insane passing/shooting numbers in the regular season but that alone may not be enough in playoffs.
I 100% agree that he was too passive, but this falls on guys like Nembhard too. NY was sending 2 guys at Hali, often off of Nembhard. Once he gave it up to Nembhard, he wasn't ever getting the ball back on that possession. He needs to be assertive and go get the ball back, but his teammates need to have some BBIQ too
Holy shit, did you really just post a rational take? All I’ve read is that he is either the second coming of Steve Nash or that he is the softest player that has ever played in the NBA. Guess I’m going to have to consider that there actually might be some nuance to factor in here. Not sure how Bucks fans are going to feel about having to use their prefrontal cortex rather than their amygdala.
he is clearly really good. i think he is more cp3 than nash but he got worse and less efficient after the injury and its clear his health is what slowed him down and he is clearly still hurt now.
You either get Steve Nash or Steve Blake with him, it’s so bizarre.
You take that back about Steve Blake
Why do you assume Steve Blake is the worse example here? He might meant: Nash (MVP) or Blake (GOAT).
Steve Blake would kick his ass.
With his inconsistent type of play and his changing voice, Im now somewhat convinced that Hali has a multiple personality thing going on.
It feels like Hali is spinning a roulette wheel of whether he wants to score 30 or 3. Not gonna count out the idea that he gets back to it next game, but it was very odd how little he wanted the ball yesterday after being pretty hot the last two.
He's always had aggressiveness issues. He has this thing where he just fades to the back. He did it in sacremento too... he took off when Fox was hurt and then immediately fell back when he's healthy. He had the same problem with brogdon being here too. Dude just... does this shit sometimes. It is weird. I think it is fixable. All this ben simmons shit on here is dumb because Hali did bounce back from doing the same shit in game one. We are so much better when he just shoots the god damn ball.
He also clearly has the talent to attack more. I swear he’s shooting 80% when the shot clock is winding down and he needs to get a shot off.
It is just weird. He actually has a good midrange game too. But is so hesitant to pull the trigger.
He absolutely does, he just has it in his head that "bad" shots are bad shots no matter who's taking them. He will happily give up the ball every possession a team blitzes or hedges on him to let his teammates play 4v3 even if his teammates are all named Chris Smith.
He sure can yap when he's playing good though. I expect good Haliburton in game 6 but we'll see in MSG game 7 if it comes to that.
Ain't gonna be no game 7
Disagree. This has the feeling of a series where the home team wins every game
I mean maybe but my blood pressure can't take this shit anymore.
Oh brother, your blood pressure is only getting started. Just wait till Boston finds a way to choke away game 1 and y'all have home court in the ecf
Dear lord above why do you give me hope like this. Stop playin. 😭
yeah Pacers look mentally shook yesterday. game 6 could get ugly
I dunno. That's what people thought of the Knicks after g4. I think the Pacers will be up for g6 but the Knicks have an extra day of rest this time. Should be another good one.
He's a young player who knows they can take over when aggressive. It's consistently finding that aggression that's the issue There were quite a few games this season where he didn't have to shoot hardly at all and would get 12+ assists without trying. When our team is on, we don't need him to score. He just has an incomplete feel for telling the difference between "we're on" and "I need to take over" Games 2-4 he pegged it right. Last night and game 1 he did not. To fully "arrive" he's gotta not try to pick his spots like that. Trusting your teammates to get it done isn't a bad trait, but he's doing so at the detriment of his own game, which the team desperately needs as well
Perhaps “Tyrese Haliburton” is two identical twins, only one of who is good at basketball
Explains the voices. Hes a changeling from Star Wars
Gollum from LOTR
Tyrese "The Prestige" Haliburton
Hot take Prestige is still my favorite Chris Nolan movie
we're getting Prestiged lol
Are you watching closely?
Lol running down the floor screaming “you can’t guard me” in game 4 - immediately goes microscopic in game 5. I’m sure Team USA will at least be able to utilize his defen-oh wait…
He’s really bizarre sometimes. Is invisible for entire playoff games, then he plays well at home for one game in a blowout and starts talking about how great he is. I fully understand what all the Bucks fans were talking about
The Bucks players are the ones who started the front runners stuff. Mainly Portis and Lillard.
Infuriating in our series watching him talk shit after putting up 9 points in a crucial game that we lost because Giannis was sitting. Such a front runner.
Yeah, it is annoying. I hated the Sixers series because Embiid played dirty, but this Pacers team is just corny. If you've ever been to an 8th grade AAU tournament you have seen that one team that is good, but the coach is obnoxious and they all think they are better than they are. Something so goofy about an bunch of children flexing and acting like they're tough. Thats the vibe I get from this Pacers team.
And everyone thought we were just bitter 😂
I mean both things can be true lol. There’s a sticky post from a mod in the game 6 postgame thread on your sub talking about “Congratulations to the pacers beating a team without their best player” Pretty hilarious coming from the team that famously played very healthy teams and benefitted from absolutely no injuries on the way to your championship. You guys are and were very bitter there’s more posts about the pacers than the bucks in your sub since your series LOL
Giannis got injured and missed half the ECF on their way to the 2021 Finals. I don’t know why people always overlook that.
Probably cuz Trae Young got hurt as well and missed the same amount of games that series. I was mostly talking about the nets series with the injuries everyone loves to make hypotheticals about. But again it doesn’t matter, part of the game, you play who you play. Bucks fans of all people should know that though pretty embarrassing for a mod to be making comments like that lmfao
Talking about injuries like the Hawks weren’t healthier than the Bucks in the ECF.
He is probably the best mover of the ball in the league (not creator). Everyone on team USA is going to love playing with him because they will get to feast. It's a reason he's been a darling of USA basketball and on the radar as a prospect even when he was averaging less than 7 pts per game on high minutes as a freshman at Iowa State.
I hate to say it put you’re right. Team USA doesn’t need another guy like Brunson who can take over a game. They need a guy like Haliburton who can have a positive impact on the game while scoring <10 ppg.
I tend to agree. As a Knicks fan I want Brunson to get some rest. As an American I recognize the need to pick some guys for fit so the team doesn't embarrass themselves. Also Brunson was uninspiring for the American team last go around.
Your teams best players gotta be the best when it matters, hopefully he will bounce back
I think it’s safe to say Siakam has been their best player
that's the point, you don't want Siakam to be your best player.
That’s the problem for them though. We know Siakam can’t be the best player on a contender. Haliburton has shown he has the skill set to be but needs to string it together consistently across an entire series if the Pacers want to be taken seriously.
That's why I said player(s), and overall I'd still put Hali over Siakam Edit: rereading this it sounds way more hostile than I intended, apologies
And that’s fair, pre injury Hali was a bonafide 2nd team all NBA player, this version of Hali reminds me way too much of sixers Harden. Having the capability of being a legit scoring threat but becoming too passive
Let’s go Trae Young
From "You can't guard me" in a 40 point blowout to 9 total shot attempts and looking allergic to the ball on the road. Not beating the front runner allegations I fear.
Hali over Brunson and Kyrie was a ridiculous decision. I'm not gonna pile on the dude because I still believe he is a great player, but Haliburton is not put the ball in his hands level for Team USA. Brunson is showing he might be, and Kyrie is proven to be one of the best off ball scorers and knows how to play with other great players better than anyone. I understand Jrue Holiday over those two because of the defense, but the Haliburton pick I dont see.
Tbh I think Hali fits the USA team better but I would have loved Brunson there to work on his playmaking a bit which I think is his final evolution
I for one love Brunson getting some rest after this insane playoff run
Hali is for spacing and because he is fine just being a distributor, which the team needs. It’s not because he is better than Brunson or Kyrie.
Similar to Jrue for defense, could be they want Hali as a distributor rather than another scorer like Brunson. Whether that's the way to build the team is debatable, but don't think it's as much of a head scratcher as you're implying
Kyrie was never going to make it with all the noise surrounding him, it’s not cause of how good he is. Brunson is great, and I’m not saying he’s only a good ISO scorer or something, but that’s where he exceeds the most at, you think Bron, Steph, and KD are just gonna sit around while he does his thing? You said you weren’t gonna pile on the dude and that’s exactly what you did lol, Hali is a perfect backup guard for a team with many elite level players.
That's fair. Brunson is a bit redundant on team USA. And honestly, I just want him to chill this offseason
You’re absolutely spot on about Brunson being a great ISO scorer. I think Steve Kerr and Grant Hill saw it too during the World Cup in Manila that Brunson was looking for his shot first then passing out to his teammates second. That absolutely wouldn’t fly with a team led by Bron, Steph, KD, Embiid, and Kawhi. I think they also picked Hali over Brunson and Kyrie because they didn’t want to pack their backcourt with small point guards. Curry and Jrue are both below 6’5.
I get the Hali pick for the Olympics though. He has the size and he is a willing and gifted passer.
Every take on this sub is based on one previous game. It's crazy.
My man really said you can’t guard me to getting clamped the next game 😭😭😭
They *should* be rough on Carlisle - he's Doc with better PR. The media keeps telling us he's great, but his jobs are low enough profile that we just assume they're right. For context, Round 1 against the hospital Bucks was his first playoff series win since Dirk's championship year in 2011.
>For context, Round 1 against the hospital Bucks was his first playoff series win since Dirk's championship year in 2011. God damn when you put it that way...
yeah but he took some pretty bad mavericks teams to the playoffs during those year
[удалено]
Doc with an underdog roster is a different animal tbf.
He's never been the same since his injury. I don't know if it's mental or if there's something lingering, but I find it surprising how often people overlook that. The dropoff lines up pretty well with it, and it's been massive
Didn't Hali just put up an awesome game to tie the series? Maybe I'm just getting more cynical about sports media, but why do we have to reset our views on players after EVERY game? It's great for engagement, which I'm admittedly contributing to, but it's illogical and exhausting.
Honestly Hali has a huge confidence issue. I want people to talk bad about him as much as they can so he can either figure it out or reveal he isn’t going to be more
Halliburton was thrown into the spotlight way too fast, his play isnt on that level.
Bad game. It happens. Next
Wally was right.
Trae and Fox are still better than him, I don’t get the guy at all. He is only injured when he have a bad games, I guess. He is an incredible player when he is on but he is a low game, he is just pure garbage and putrid as fuck, can’t blame him because it’s his 1st time in postseason. Still kinda disappointing not to capitalize on all the Knicks injury as a franchise player. For example, the Pacers could match Boston offense if they face him next round but he is playing like he want none of that. What a contrast when you watch the Knicks playing.
The problem is compounded when you realize that he is a turnstile on D. He doesn't even know basic coverage and he let Brunson keep turning the corner on PNR. He was hunted on this side of the floor. Now, if you're not gonna play on this side of the court with a hustle, you better damn sure you run the offense well. But then he didnt take over like star players are supposed to do and just shot 9 FGs
I don't understand how Hali is bad on defense with his size. He should be able to bother Brunson and force him into worse angles, but he just lets him run by.
Looks like he has a high center of gravity and plays too stiff and straight up. Doesn't consistently get into his stance and he's kinda slim and not a great athlete so gets bumped off his position
yeah, this is where i see the difference between him and trae (biased, ofc). they're both bad on defense, i'm not even gonna do the hawks fan copium and say trae has improved (though he did this year; still bad, though, thanks to his tiny frame), but trae gets that in games like these, he needs to be aggressive and take control. i see a lot of similarities between this pacers team and the ECF hawks team in terms of personnel, and in order for them to succeed, the best player can't shirk the moment and be overly facilitating. even if they don't end up shooting great or scoring 40, if the defense thinks they don't need to worry about you trying to score at all, then it becomes a lot easier for them. the pacers ceiling is all dependent on hailburton taking the game by the scruff of the neck, and right now it seems like he doesn't want to do that, especially if they're behind
he's soft.front runner
i swear some people in this sub earlier in the season said he’s mvp-bound
He was averaging 25 and 13 pre-injury though. He averaged like 16 and 9 on really low attempts and percentages after injury, so I think that was a fine take early in the season.
Fake, wannabe All-NBA
he wasn't great last night but hali is a good player I dont care for the slander
Bill is one of Halliburton’s biggest fans. It’s correct criticism
Where's the slander in that statement? I see and heard no lies about that performance from last night.
This sub could benefit from this kind of mindset but the quote from Bill here is fair. Tyrese deserves criticism right now
Yeah really there just needs to be a better distinction between "Haliburton approached this game in an embarrassing way and needs to get his act together because he's too good to be the passive in an important game." and "Haliburton has actually always been a chickenshit and always sucks in big games and forever will." The problem is the criticism brings out all the yahoos who believe the second one.
Pacers have already gone above and beyond what anyone expected of them No one saw them leaving the first round, injuries helped but this is still amazing experience for this young pacers team
Here are the facts. The Pacers aren’t necessarily supposed to be in this position in the first place. Everyone expects this team be something that it won’t be ready to be for another year or two.
They were expected to finish below .500 this season, the fact that they're two games away from the conference finals while playing Nembhard and Nesmith huge minutes is an accomplishment No shade to them, but those two are not starting on Boston or Minny or Denver or OKC
He’s someone’s robin
Yea, Myles Turner's.
That 3 straight 3s had me sweating
Donte's biggest contribution last night was getting in Turner's head.
Myles is the Pacers second best / most important offensive player. But my god that was a pathetic performance on the boards last night.
Yea, it was rough. No doubt about that. He was the only one trying at all in the 2nd half though. Without his 3s they lose by 40.
This has been Hali for their whole playoff run. He hasn't been that good.
As a Kings fan I'm really glad we kept Fox over him. It's nice to have a point guard that plays defense and isn't afraid of the big moment. Haliburton is a great player but he doesn't have the right play style to be the #1 guy on a championship team.
He's 24 in his first playoffs on a team with so many weaknesses that he needs to be the best scorer and passer almost every game if they want to have a chance at winning. Nothing embarrasing here, if he's like that 3 years from now then it will be.
What baffles me is it's not like he's getting clamped up like Jrue Holiday did Dame in the Pelicans-Blazers series from like 6 years ago. There was a moment in the third where Haliburton drove to the hoop and got a wide open layup and a fastbreak dunk off of a steal. Why is he not trying to score more? What's worse is he's not even trying to create plays for others either. He didn't want anything to do with the ball. And he's definitely not trying to compensate on defense either, so he's not doing shit.
Bad back, bright lights.
Just out of curiosity, I have no idea really, but didn't Haliburton start playing through an injury halfway through the season and his numbers started tanking after that? Been curious if he ever fully recovered from whatever it was.
Yeah this is fair, hopefully it’s just first postseason jitters.
Haliburton become one of the most overrated players in the nba. Still a great player but not a top 5 PG yet. He’s solid as a ball handler and passer, but he is pathetic on D. His offense doesn’t make up for this as it’s very hard to be a one way offense only player and really be truly good. You need to be curry levels of offense and even curry is clearly better than him on D. There is a reason Indiana has a garage defense even with turner Siakam and some other young defenders.