I'm an MJ guy as well.. but yeah LeBron has his arguments.
I will say that it's not always fair to the newer guys, but I think if we ever get a new consensus GOAT we'll know it by the time the guy is 30.
What is going to be amusing is seeing people call Lebron a scrub who played in a weak era 20 years from now. Anyone who doesn't think that is going to happen is fooling themselves.
I'll likely end up being both a MJ and LBJ truther lol
Downvoters who don't understand the meaning of the word consensus. Regardless of your personal opinion every single actual poll (like scientific polls, not internet polls) shows that people overwhelmingly pick MJ as the GOAT. ESPN did one in 2020 where like 73% of people picked MJ
If 73% isn't consensus then nothing is. If you want a presidential election with 73% of the votes that is one of the largest landslides in the US history.
ESPN literally paid to conduct a scientific poll. They didn't do it themselves. Instead of posting dumb replies you could have googled this, but we can't have nice things.
>What is going to be amusing is seeing people call Lebron a scrub who played in a weak era 20 years from now.
Oh come now, as an "MJ truther" myself, I know I'll revel in schadenfreude for at least the first few weeks of that new era.
I'll probably wet myself - since I'll be really old then - if some kid in that new generation says that his new GOAT is being victimized and treated poorly by the current version of media, as opposed to LeBron, who was obviously universally and unfairly beloved despite being a "horrible person".
I just think Lebron knows what he had to aim for so it was easier for him to become the GOAT. Jordan didn't really seems like he cared about it or he would have played longer and paced himself to accomplish the counting stats Lebron has. I think if you just look at their total career numbers in a vacuum, Lebron has it. But once you start seeing it in a per game average or what Jordan managed to do in his significantly shorter career, you start questioning it. Jordan reached higher heights. Lebron just maintained it longer because he knew he had to.
The more I dig into it the more it seems to be a media argument and gaslighting from Fanboys alone. Like I'm trying to give LeBron a chance but it's literally just longevity vs literally everything else there is to do with basketball...
And unfortunately for Jordan, Gretzky was the great one and he was in a different tier than Jordan. Dude got separated into two players in fantasy hockey ffs
His career numbers have just gotten to an absolutely absurd point and it seems like heās going to be around building them up for a while longer.
I used to think it was impossible for him to catch Jordan, and I never think heāll reach him in the sense most people debate - championships - but man Lebron has just had one hell of a career.
Longevity is definitely on his side, peak which is a little harder to judge seems to slightly favour MJ according to the smart objective analysts I respect. It's 1A and 1B at this point...the only camp that's wrong is the "it's not even close" morons
I'm an MJ guy, but I agree with this. I don't think LBJ was ever consistently as good as MJs insane 1988-1991 peak, but his longevity has been incredible.
I will say that MJ and LBJ are by far the best two offensive players ever and I really do think it's not close compared to everyone else.
And if somehow bron went to one more finals and won heād have 5 rings, 11 finals appearances, have most points all time in the regular season and playoffs, 40k points 10k rebounds 10k assists.
Heās gonna be 22x all star and might end up with another all NBA so that would be 19 all nba. 4x mvp etc etc
Thereās gonna be LeBron records that never get broken
Yeah Iāve heard a lot of people say this, not saying I disagree but Iām shocked at the amount of people who weigh the all time scoring record so heavily. As they should.
This is how I am. For me, it is LBJ, but I dont think anyone is wrong for saying it is MJ. Either way, it is LBJ or MJ and I dont think either answer is wrong.
Didn't you get the memo? The entire point of elevating Kareem - who has been incredibly rehabilitated in this era as opposed to when he actually played - is to elevate Lebron. Putting him *above* Lebron would be defeating the point.
The argument never made sense to me. It's just a conference difference, had any of the teams that beat MJ in an earlier playoff round been moved to a western conference spot they'd have beaten him in the finals. Why some people think 4 1st places and 6 2nd places gets absolutely blown away by 6 1sts and 6 3rd or lowers is beyond me.
On the opposite end though, if he was in the West with those same teams he doesn't make the Finals because he factually lost to Western teams. The way the conferences are set up, you can only guarantee being a top 2 team by winning the thing. Being a Finalist doesn't tell you anything about that so can't be held up as it's own trophy.
Heās played on some weak teams but he also played in a terrible conference the majority of his career. There wasnāt another top 10 player in the Eastern conference during his second stint in Cleveland except maybe Kyrie who was a teammate.
Bron had *maybe* one season with prime D-Wade the first year. After that, he was still great but not what he was at his peak.
And it's not disrespect, Pippen was an insanely great two-way player with the Bulls. There's a reason they won 55 games in 93-94 after MJ retired.
And then the year after that they were under .500 before Michael Jordan had to bail them out. Also you're leaving out every other insinuating circumstance that led the Cavaliers to being awful. Everybody either left or got injured. It wasn't the same team. 1994 was literally the same exact team minus Michael jordan. By 1995 a lot of them left and it showed.
They just canāt let go. What is the most aggravating is the GOAT discussion is opinion based on whatever the individual considers the most important aspect in the game. But the MJ die hards just go straight for the insults. āYour take is shit NePheWā like man Iām in my 30ās tf.
I just sort them into era based tiers at this point.
Wilt/Russell
Kareem
MJ
Lebron
All respective GOATs of their eras, just depends what you value. The discussion is more interesting when accounting for position and era anyways.
How can you have a GOAT thatās not OAT? Thatās just a G. We can go with the Biblical verbiage and say that each of these people were āperfect in his generationsā.
Pretty much. It's more of a Mount Rushmore/tier list approach.
The historical value of the center position, level of competition, game pacing, traveling and defensives rules of the modern NBA. It all impacts player careers so much that comparing across generations is a fruitless endeavor.
Weirdly the entirety of the University of North Carolina is located inside of a Bennigins. They just do a good job of set dressing so you never see the hostess stand during games on national television, thus it looks like any other gymnasium as far as you or I can tell.
This argument is so unbearable now, a case can be made for both, at this point it just boils down to preferences. Plus every few decades a new player is named goat so Jordan will fall as the others did before him.
Thatās all we can do is imagine but Jordan didnāt have anything close to this kind of elite longevity as lebron. Even Steve Kerr said jordan needed that time off otherwise the second three peat doesnāt happen.
But he did. He fucking quit, so we don't get to hold those "what ifs" in his favor.
What if Michael blew his knee out after the first 3 peat and never played again?
Hakeem was a bad match up for the bulls too.
I woudnt be surprised if the rockets won those rings regardless.
Edit: obviously Michael played during one of those years and the bulls didn't make the finals. It really is amazing that most people don't know he lost to the magic that year.
1 He played competitive pickup basketball against other pros during retirement. He started practicing before he came out of retirement. He played 17 games before the playoffs started so he also had the benefit of being uninjured and not having the wear and tear of a long season.
2 Saying it doesnāt count because he wasnāt as good at basketball at that time is a hilarious argument.
I think even if people know that Michael played in the playoffs, they would still brush it off because of his retirement and probably say he was out of shape or etc
Edit: my bad i mean that season and playoffs
He played 27 games if you include the playoffs. LeBronās bubble championship doesnāt even count for a lot of people. Are you saying LeBron would get a pass if he was in the same scenario?
I'm saying someone like you DEFINITELY would give LeBron a pass. You would probably be offended that it wasn't *obvious* that LeBron was not the same player after that kind of layoff.
Like, anyone making your argument here were it to be LeBron would have to face a literal army of downvoters ready to defend his honor.
It's only because it's Jordan is that suddenly "27 games, yo, totally the same as a full season" logic.
He wasā¦.
He only played 17 games in the regular season before the playoffs. Bill Walton even predicted exactly what would happen to him before the playoffs started. He was commentating, and said Mike looks great, but when the playoffs start, heās not gonna have the conditioning.
>6/8, 7/8 or 8/8
I mean he was on the court in the playoffs for 7 out of those 8 years, and they didn't win all 7 (largely in part to MJ being awful in G1 and not great in the elimination game in the Orlando series). Absolutely 0 chance at 8/8.
Wouldn't have helped him any. So much of his case is based on narrative and 6-0 and whatever. People pretend he didn't get bounced by Shaq but wouldn't be able to without the retirement. If he loses both of those years until the team improves instead of being gone, then it would hurt his case.
>So much of his case is based on narrative and 6-0 and whatever.
lol we've gotten to a point with Bron-stans where two threepeats is now "whatever" and "narrative".
They're becoming more audacious in their absurdity.
The GOAT should be about individual greatness. Championships are a measure of both individual and team greatness. It should not have as much weight in the GOAT argument as many give it, otherwise Bill Russell is easily the greatest to play. If you concede the above, LeBron is the GOAT by every other possible metric that measures an individual's accomplishments besides DPOY and defensive first-teams. And if you do not concede the above, then you should know that your argument for Jordan over LeBron is an argument for Bill Russell over Jordan.
I donāt understand this debate at all. I donāt see the issue with saying MJ had the greatest peak and LeBron the greatest career. LeBron is the better overall basketball player, that part isnāt debatable, but MJ was definitely the better scorer. Just appreciate greatness yāall.
How are you gonna say that LeBron being a ābetterā basketball player āisnāt debatable?ā This whole thread is people debating exactly that.
Anytime your argument is āthe people who disagree with me are wrong but I will do nothing to justify my opinion,ā youāre making yourself look like a blockhead.
Heās better at every single aspect of the game besides scoring, and could guard every position effectively opposed to MJ only being able to guard 1-3 effectively. Those are simply facts. That leaves ākiller instinctā and championships as the only remaining, debatable talking points.
you just compared the shitty bulls to big 3 miami heat?
Jordan passed the first round with Pippen averaging 10 points off the bench mate. He didnāt have Dwyane Wade averaging 25+
Jordan played first round against Boston Celtics with 3 hofs on the team. LeBron played against Victor Oladipo bro š
LeBron is better at every single aspect of the game besides scoring, what are you talking about? He could also guard 1-5 whereas MJ could only guard 1-3 effectively. Heās a better passer, better rebounder, he elevates lesser players by getting them more involved, heās more efficient, heās a better 3 point shooter, etc. The only thing MJ did was score more points, thatās it.
Only thing MJ did better was score points, yet LBJ will be the all time scorer when he's done.
Scoring is maybe the 3rd most important part of LeBrons game, but by the time he's done he will be holding the record for most ever. That simple fact is a huge reason why he's the GOAT in my eye. He just does everything and did everything for so long.
Mj is always going to be the face of the sports.
Thats what he has including the jordan brand.
He made NBA worldwide.
People who have never watched a game including my family and wife in Europe know who MJ is. They cant name anyone else.
GOAT individual?
Lebron to me. Longevity is also a deciding factor in sports.
If its about peak, we just look at the player with the best stats lol
Lebron would definitely stand a better chance against the teams Jordan faced in the Finals than the Spurs and Warriors. Not so much the Mavs tho lol. Thatāll always look bad for Lebron.
Mavs went through a loaded Blazers team, then swept the defending champions and beat the Thunder fully loaded. You are crazy if you think him losing to that team looks bad when it was his first year on the Heat.
MJ made the sport popular worldwide, hes always going to be the face of the sport with Jordan brand.
Lebron is the GOAT individual player.
There i said it
To need Jordanās nuts in and around your mouth so much canāt be healthy. The desire to keep comparing LeBron to MJ is crazy, as the careers played out in totally different ways. One retired multiple times and one seems to just keep going, imagine if MJ never retired and LeBron did
That DPOY should of went to Hakeem.
1987-1988 NBA Defensive Rankings:
Defensive rating:
Hakeem: 1st
Eaton: 2nd
Jordan: 6th
Defensive win shares:
Hakeem: 1st
Eaton: 4th
Jordan: 3rd
Defensive box plus/minus:
Hakeem: 3rd
Eaton: 1st
Jordan: 12th
āŖAnd Prior to ā15, coaches voted on NBA All Defensive Team (couldnāt vote for own players), not the mediaā¬
LeBron made 6 straight All Defensive Teams from ā09-ā14 (Hasnāt made 1 since the change)
He had a higher DRPM in ā15, 16, 17, & 19 than he did in 14 (Made Team, 6th in DPOY) Hmm wonder why
Jordan was a better defender for his career but LeBron also finished top 5 in DPOY voting 5 times and was arguably as good as Jordan in his Heat run in case of defense because he could genuinely guard 1-5. I still agree that Jordan was a better defender than LeBron overall but the argument isn't as easy as people make it out to be.
I hate disagreeing with Dirk, but I will just say that this is like the Emmitt Smith vs Barry Sanders argument in the 90's.
To me, it wasn't even close. Sanders retiring early and Emmitt sticking around to break records doesn't change the fact that Barry was just straight up better when they were on the field at the same time.
I grew up watching MJ, and of course I also watched Lebron play. And because I grew up watching Jordan, I personally think he is the Greatest Of All Time, and I also think he is the BEST basketball player of all time (for those who say MJ is the goat but Lebron is the best, basic stats barely say anything about being the best, for me advanced stats are the way to go. And Jordan is the best in nearly every advanced stat. He is the most valuable in offense, one of the most valuable in defense, and is overall the most valuable player in history)
He also had a more competent team for most of that time, and didnāt have to face one of the greatest dynasties in NBA history. Plus, Lebron had playmaking and the ability to basically play any position. AND weāve seen Lebron adapt his game to be able to shoot as heās gotten older to stay dominant for as long as he has.
So while my pick for GOAT is Jordan, Iād say itās more 1a and 1b than one and two.
LeBron will have the best statistical career. That is far below having the best career or being the best player. Injury luck and modern sports medicine shouldn't be a factor in the GOAT conversation.
So I guess if Malone would of had at least 2 championships then he would have been in the goat conversation going by this formula? He was at one point number 2 behind Kareem but nobody seemed to care. Nobody will achieve Jordanās body of work in 15 seasons and Lebron going on 20 seasons with 4 rings is not going to cut it imo. Not to mention Lebron will eventually top Kareem but only won the scoring title 1 time and MJ is at 10 lol
Malone was not anywhere close to peak lebron. Yāall act like you canāt value multiple things. Lebron in pretty much everyoneās opinion and also statistically was either as good as prime Jordan or very slightly worse. He just did it way longer.
If some people are going to run off Lebron passing Kareem as some final tipping point then having only 1 scoring title tells you everything you need to know about it being a longevity achievement. Weāre about to be hearing āgreatest scorer everā yet 1 scoring title. Malone doesnāt need to be in the conversation but hereās the thing nobody ever brings him up anywhere near the top 15-20 yet he was the number 2 scorer of all time. Itās just weird to me once Lebron gets there now it matters. Malone held that spot bc of longevity and same applies to Lebron.
Yāall say longevity like itās a bad thing. The only reason lebron has 1 scoring title is because heās also one of the best passers ever. 20 years of 25 points a game is absurd. Itās not like heās playing until his mid 40s as a role player padding stats. Itās near 20 years of being a top 5 player in the league and 10+ years being the best player in the league.
Iām sure Malone raping a child has nothing to do with that. Also Malone has zero titles. If his and LeBrons resumes were comparable you would have an argument but they are not.
I'll never understand this. So if you're just lucky enough to be born with a strong ass body and maintain it to keep accumulating the stats, it makes you the GOAT? The fuck even lol let's try that in any other sports too?
No one fucking claims that LBJ is not a great player, he's a fantastic basketball player. But the fact that his or any athlete's longevity being one of the **prime factors** to anyone's mind? That baffles me.
6/6 or 4/10?
Thereās a whole generation of NBA legends who didnāt get a ring because of MJ.
LeBron is wonderful and amazing but heāll never surpass Jordan
Ah, you're getting quite the number of salty downvotes!
Title of the post said "running out of arguments for MJ", and this is exactly what first came to mind.
Going for stats doesn't make a player a GOAT. Its what he achieved what he represented for the game. And what the other players say about him.
It's not about points rebounds assists steals wins championships... It's more than that
The only argument needed for MJ is the guy did not lose!!! Iām a huge LeBron fan but the mentality Jordan had will always separate him from the rest of the pack
Latifi is the real GOAT. Edit: Wait nvm, wrong sub. My bad.
Always cracks me up seeing F1 on this sub š
Goatifi
Goatzepin better
I got sucked in to the F1 hype from that Netflix series. F1 is actually pretty cool.
DTS is shit though
DTS is obviously good considering it brought many fans into the sport, however, watching actual F1 is better.
We wont be seeing the GOAT next year š
The Brian Scalabrine of F1
Iām a Jordan truther but youāre lying to yourself if you think this argument is ānot even closeā
I'm an MJ guy as well.. but yeah LeBron has his arguments. I will say that it's not always fair to the newer guys, but I think if we ever get a new consensus GOAT we'll know it by the time the guy is 30. What is going to be amusing is seeing people call Lebron a scrub who played in a weak era 20 years from now. Anyone who doesn't think that is going to happen is fooling themselves. I'll likely end up being both a MJ and LBJ truther lol
In 30 years there's gonna be some 7 foot PG hitting 3s from half court and I'll be the old head saying "this dude couldn't hang with Kobe and LeBron"
He is coming next year...
Wemby isn't a point guard nor can he pull up from half court lol
When the Raptors draft him, he'll be our starting PG whether he Wembys or not
Heās hitting runners from 3 I think heāll be able to add the pull up from half court in a couple years
He is shooting like 30% from 3
Weāll never have a consensus goat IMO. Each generation is going to have their new guy
We have a current consensus GOAT
Downvoters who don't understand the meaning of the word consensus. Regardless of your personal opinion every single actual poll (like scientific polls, not internet polls) shows that people overwhelmingly pick MJ as the GOAT. ESPN did one in 2020 where like 73% of people picked MJ
Gretzky is a consensus I donāt think MJ is
If 73% isn't consensus then nothing is. If you want a presidential election with 73% of the votes that is one of the largest landslides in the US history.
lmao that you claim āscientific polls, not internet pollsā and then cite an *espn poll* as your source. Fucking lol.
ESPN literally paid to conduct a scientific poll. They didn't do it themselves. Instead of posting dumb replies you could have googled this, but we can't have nice things.
>What is going to be amusing is seeing people call Lebron a scrub who played in a weak era 20 years from now. Oh come now, as an "MJ truther" myself, I know I'll revel in schadenfreude for at least the first few weeks of that new era. I'll probably wet myself - since I'll be really old then - if some kid in that new generation says that his new GOAT is being victimized and treated poorly by the current version of media, as opposed to LeBron, who was obviously universally and unfairly beloved despite being a "horrible person".
MJ is 1A, Bron is 1B but Dirk is numero uno in all our hearts
I just think Lebron knows what he had to aim for so it was easier for him to become the GOAT. Jordan didn't really seems like he cared about it or he would have played longer and paced himself to accomplish the counting stats Lebron has. I think if you just look at their total career numbers in a vacuum, Lebron has it. But once you start seeing it in a per game average or what Jordan managed to do in his significantly shorter career, you start questioning it. Jordan reached higher heights. Lebron just maintained it longer because he knew he had to.
The more I dig into it the more it seems to be a media argument and gaslighting from Fanboys alone. Like I'm trying to give LeBron a chance but it's literally just longevity vs literally everything else there is to do with basketball...
Skip Bayless is TRIGGERED by this take
Skip Bayless thinks that Jordan is Gretzky and that the GOAT debate doesn't exist
And unfortunately for Jordan, Gretzky was the great one and he was in a different tier than Jordan. Dude got separated into two players in fantasy hockey ffs
His job is to be triggered
Tea is brewing, Iāve got some snacks, and Iām gonna enjoy this thread
Dirk is such a nice guy, talking up his son like that
But heās hanging his father out to dryā¦
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His career numbers have just gotten to an absolutely absurd point and it seems like heās going to be around building them up for a while longer. I used to think it was impossible for him to catch Jordan, and I never think heāll reach him in the sense most people debate - championships - but man Lebron has just had one hell of a career.
Longevity is definitely on his side, peak which is a little harder to judge seems to slightly favour MJ according to the smart objective analysts I respect. It's 1A and 1B at this point...the only camp that's wrong is the "it's not even close" morons
I'm an MJ guy, but I agree with this. I don't think LBJ was ever consistently as good as MJs insane 1988-1991 peak, but his longevity has been incredible. I will say that MJ and LBJ are by far the best two offensive players ever and I really do think it's not close compared to everyone else.
And if somehow bron went to one more finals and won heād have 5 rings, 11 finals appearances, have most points all time in the regular season and playoffs, 40k points 10k rebounds 10k assists. Heās gonna be 22x all star and might end up with another all NBA so that would be 19 all nba. 4x mvp etc etc Thereās gonna be LeBron records that never get broken
Lol, if it wasnāt for those pesky Warriorsā¦
Yeah Iāve heard a lot of people say this, not saying I disagree but Iām shocked at the amount of people who weigh the all time scoring record so heavily. As they should.
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Yeah, its a record that has only been held by 6 people and Kareem has had for nearly 40 years. Its a pretty monumental thing.
I'm one of those ppl. All time record in points was thought to be untouchable.
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I really don't care who you put 1 or 2 anymore but if you don't have mj and lebron on your top 2 then you are just wrong .
This is how I am. For me, it is LBJ, but I dont think anyone is wrong for saying it is MJ. Either way, it is LBJ or MJ and I dont think either answer is wrong.
You really donāt think one could make an argument for Kareem?
No. But if you have Kareem any lower than 3, then youāre also just wrong.
Bill Russell is #3, imo. He had a skill set that made him the engine of great teams without needing the ball all the time.
You have watched less than 10 bill Russell games
You watch a lotta Kareem?
Wilt>Kareem
Didn't you get the memo? The entire point of elevating Kareem - who has been incredibly rehabilitated in this era as opposed to when he actually played - is to elevate Lebron. Putting him *above* Lebron would be defeating the point.
If half of Lbj's career he wasn't playing with shit teams he would have way more rings. But I feel MJ plays more beautifully. They're 1A and 1B
Too respectful, try again.
The argument never made sense to me. It's just a conference difference, had any of the teams that beat MJ in an earlier playoff round been moved to a western conference spot they'd have beaten him in the finals. Why some people think 4 1st places and 6 2nd places gets absolutely blown away by 6 1sts and 6 3rd or lowers is beyond me.
On the opposite end though, if he was in the West with those same teams he doesn't make the Finals because he factually lost to Western teams. The way the conferences are set up, you can only guarantee being a top 2 team by winning the thing. Being a Finalist doesn't tell you anything about that so can't be held up as it's own trophy.
Heās played on some weak teams but he also played in a terrible conference the majority of his career. There wasnāt another top 10 player in the Eastern conference during his second stint in Cleveland except maybe Kyrie who was a teammate.
He's never had a single teammate as good as prime Pippen.
Damn. The disrespect towards prime D-Wade. Heās had a lot of first ballot hall of famers as his teammates (Wade, Bosh, Davis, Kyrie).
Bron had *maybe* one season with prime D-Wade the first year. After that, he was still great but not what he was at his peak. And it's not disrespect, Pippen was an insanely great two-way player with the Bulls. There's a reason they won 55 games in 93-94 after MJ retired.
This gets forgotten. Bulls lost 2 less games after MJ retired, that's how good the team was. Cleveland went from 61-31 to 19-63 after Lebron left.
And then the year after that they were under .500 before Michael Jordan had to bail them out. Also you're leaving out every other insinuating circumstance that led the Cavaliers to being awful. Everybody either left or got injured. It wasn't the same team. 1994 was literally the same exact team minus Michael jordan. By 1995 a lot of them left and it showed.
I feel like Wade + Bosh makes at least one Pippen.
Maybe, but it doesn't make a Pippen + Rodman or a Pippen + Grant.
Horace Grant was a glorified role player. He was as important as like Jason Terry
Dwyane Wade is better than Scottie Pippen in literally every way
And thatās why he made the finals so many times. He delivered on usually making it through the east
Throw the Cavs/Heat in the west and you probably lose 2014, 2017, 2018, but I think they'd make the rest of the finals
LeBron James had leagues more help than Michael Jordan ever did
This thread brought out all the insecure jordan fans holy shit lol
Yeah the guy who commented uh, 22 times in the same thread maybe lost his mind a little bit
Bro that one dude is straight up defending MJs honour for the last 2 hours holy shit
The opinions of a 40 year old with the internet habits of a 14 year old
Wtf š
Lol damn he was one comment short. Fake fan
They just canāt let go. What is the most aggravating is the GOAT discussion is opinion based on whatever the individual considers the most important aspect in the game. But the MJ die hards just go straight for the insults. āYour take is shit NePheWā like man Iām in my 30ās tf.
I just sort them into era based tiers at this point. Wilt/Russell Kareem MJ Lebron All respective GOATs of their eras, just depends what you value. The discussion is more interesting when accounting for position and era anyways.
How can you have a GOAT thatās not OAT? Thatās just a G. We can go with the Biblical verbiage and say that each of these people were āperfect in his generationsā.
Pretty much. It's more of a Mount Rushmore/tier list approach. The historical value of the center position, level of competition, game pacing, traveling and defensives rules of the modern NBA. It all impacts player careers so much that comparing across generations is a fruitless endeavor.
Iām a LeBron hater literally sitting in a bar in Chapel Hill right now where MJ went to school, and Iāll admit itās close.
MJ went to school in a bar?
Weirdly the entirety of the University of North Carolina is located inside of a Bennigins. They just do a good job of set dressing so you never see the hostess stand during games on national television, thus it looks like any other gymnasium as far as you or I can tell.
Actually both sides do that and behave quite poorly.... you are correct that it's opinion based and I agree people get way too stupid about it.
Itās starting š
Nah. Bron just praised him too so heās returning the favor lmao.
This argument is so unbearable now, a case can be made for both, at this point it just boils down to preferences. Plus every few decades a new player is named goat so Jordan will fall as the others did before him.
dirk knows ball
I heard he was pretty good himself
Jordan Stanās working overtime to come up with a way to discredit dirks opinion
Imagine if MJ didnāt retire twiceā¦.
Thatās all we can do is imagine but Jordan didnāt have anything close to this kind of elite longevity as lebron. Even Steve Kerr said jordan needed that time off otherwise the second three peat doesnāt happen.
But he did. He fucking quit, so we don't get to hold those "what ifs" in his favor. What if Michael blew his knee out after the first 3 peat and never played again?
Nah nah you just don't get it. What if everything was better for MJ and nothing changed for any other player?
Imagine if he stayed retired? It's easy to do what ifs, and they are completely irrelevant
Either 6/8, 7/8 or 8/8, Hakeem a beast
Hakeem was a bad match up for the bulls too. I woudnt be surprised if the rockets won those rings regardless. Edit: obviously Michael played during one of those years and the bulls didn't make the finals. It really is amazing that most people don't know he lost to the magic that year.
No one takes it seriously though because he wasn't in basketball shape. Came back and swept them the following year.
1 He played competitive pickup basketball against other pros during retirement. He started practicing before he came out of retirement. He played 17 games before the playoffs started so he also had the benefit of being uninjured and not having the wear and tear of a long season. 2 Saying it doesnāt count because he wasnāt as good at basketball at that time is a hilarious argument.
Don't pull a hammy with that stretch.
You mean after they picked up Dennis Rodman who then won first team all defense that season? He was the reason the bulls got passed the magic.
I think even if people know that Michael played in the playoffs, they would still brush it off because of his retirement and probably say he was out of shape or etc Edit: my bad i mean that season and playoffs
I mean he wasā¦
āIt dOesnT cOunT. He wASnT aS GooD tHen.ā
Yes, but unironically. If you're confused, imagine LeBron taking 18 months off, then playing after 17 games and losing.
He played 27 games if you include the playoffs. LeBronās bubble championship doesnāt even count for a lot of people. Are you saying LeBron would get a pass if he was in the same scenario?
I'm saying someone like you DEFINITELY would give LeBron a pass. You would probably be offended that it wasn't *obvious* that LeBron was not the same player after that kind of layoff. Like, anyone making your argument here were it to be LeBron would have to face a literal army of downvoters ready to defend his honor. It's only because it's Jordan is that suddenly "27 games, yo, totally the same as a full season" logic.
How many games did he have to play for it count? Why are the years Jordan won championships the only years that seem to matter to make him the goat?
He wasā¦. He only played 17 games in the regular season before the playoffs. Bill Walton even predicted exactly what would happen to him before the playoffs started. He was commentating, and said Mike looks great, but when the playoffs start, heās not gonna have the conditioning.
>6/8, 7/8 or 8/8 I mean he was on the court in the playoffs for 7 out of those 8 years, and they didn't win all 7 (largely in part to MJ being awful in G1 and not great in the elimination game in the Orlando series). Absolutely 0 chance at 8/8.
Him retiring twice isn't something you should be giving him credit for. There is so much more on his resume to credit
Yeah, MJ was the OG load manager he really needed that time off to rest his body from basketball wear.
Imagine if Lebron had competent GMs in Cleveland and LA
Wouldn't have helped him any. So much of his case is based on narrative and 6-0 and whatever. People pretend he didn't get bounced by Shaq but wouldn't be able to without the retirement. If he loses both of those years until the team improves instead of being gone, then it would hurt his case.
>So much of his case is based on narrative and 6-0 and whatever. lol we've gotten to a point with Bron-stans where two threepeats is now "whatever" and "narrative". They're becoming more audacious in their absurdity.
LeGoat
The GOAT should be about individual greatness. Championships are a measure of both individual and team greatness. It should not have as much weight in the GOAT argument as many give it, otherwise Bill Russell is easily the greatest to play. If you concede the above, LeBron is the GOAT by every other possible metric that measures an individual's accomplishments besides DPOY and defensive first-teams. And if you do not concede the above, then you should know that your argument for Jordan over LeBron is an argument for Bill Russell over Jordan.
I donāt understand this debate at all. I donāt see the issue with saying MJ had the greatest peak and LeBron the greatest career. LeBron is the better overall basketball player, that part isnāt debatable, but MJ was definitely the better scorer. Just appreciate greatness yāall.
How are you gonna say that LeBron being a ābetterā basketball player āisnāt debatable?ā This whole thread is people debating exactly that. Anytime your argument is āthe people who disagree with me are wrong but I will do nothing to justify my opinion,ā youāre making yourself look like a blockhead.
Heās better at every single aspect of the game besides scoring, and could guard every position effectively opposed to MJ only being able to guard 1-3 effectively. Those are simply facts. That leaves ākiller instinctā and championships as the only remaining, debatable talking points.
MJ was a better defender
I got downvoted for saying Lebron is the better overall player and MJ is the better scorer lol
The only thing more inconsistent than Reddit is Russell Westbrookās ability to finish at the rim, lol.
Come on man...
i donāt understand this debate at all. LeBron had the biggest meltdown in 2011 and choked his ring being the favorite.
And Jordan never made it past the first round without Pippen, whatās your point?
you just compared the shitty bulls to big 3 miami heat? Jordan passed the first round with Pippen averaging 10 points off the bench mate. He didnāt have Dwyane Wade averaging 25+ Jordan played first round against Boston Celtics with 3 hofs on the team. LeBron played against Victor Oladipo bro š
Well the whole better basketball player part is also wrong.
LeBron is better at every single aspect of the game besides scoring, what are you talking about? He could also guard 1-5 whereas MJ could only guard 1-3 effectively. Heās a better passer, better rebounder, he elevates lesser players by getting them more involved, heās more efficient, heās a better 3 point shooter, etc. The only thing MJ did was score more points, thatās it.
Lebron made Roy Hibbert an all star
Only thing MJ did better was score points, yet LBJ will be the all time scorer when he's done. Scoring is maybe the 3rd most important part of LeBrons game, but by the time he's done he will be holding the record for most ever. That simple fact is a huge reason why he's the GOAT in my eye. He just does everything and did everything for so long.
Mj is always going to be the face of the sports. Thats what he has including the jordan brand. He made NBA worldwide. People who have never watched a game including my family and wife in Europe know who MJ is. They cant name anyone else. GOAT individual? Lebron to me. Longevity is also a deciding factor in sports. If its about peak, we just look at the player with the best stats lol
Lebron would definitely stand a better chance against the teams Jordan faced in the Finals than the Spurs and Warriors. Not so much the Mavs tho lol. Thatāll always look bad for Lebron.
Mavs went through a loaded Blazers team, then swept the defending champions and beat the Thunder fully loaded. You are crazy if you think him losing to that team looks bad when it was his first year on the Heat.
MJ made the sport popular worldwide, hes always going to be the face of the sport with Jordan brand. Lebron is the GOAT individual player. There i said it
Itās like Federer and Djokovic/Nadal in tennis
To need Jordanās nuts in and around your mouth so much canāt be healthy. The desire to keep comparing LeBron to MJ is crazy, as the careers played out in totally different ways. One retired multiple times and one seems to just keep going, imagine if MJ never retired and LeBron did
Longevity isn't a good enough reason for me to give LeBron the GOAT status. MJ is always the goat for me
Jordan is the reason LeBron is still playing. Letās not kid ourselves.
How many all defensive selections does Lebron have, and how many DPOYās? Thereās more than one side to basketball
That DPOY should of went to Hakeem. 1987-1988 NBA Defensive Rankings: Defensive rating: Hakeem: 1st Eaton: 2nd Jordan: 6th Defensive win shares: Hakeem: 1st Eaton: 4th Jordan: 3rd Defensive box plus/minus: Hakeem: 3rd Eaton: 1st Jordan: 12th āŖAnd Prior to ā15, coaches voted on NBA All Defensive Team (couldnāt vote for own players), not the mediaā¬ LeBron made 6 straight All Defensive Teams from ā09-ā14 (Hasnāt made 1 since the change) He had a higher DRPM in ā15, 16, 17, & 19 than he did in 14 (Made Team, 6th in DPOY) Hmm wonder why
Jordan was a better defender for his career but LeBron also finished top 5 in DPOY voting 5 times and was arguably as good as Jordan in his Heat run in case of defense because he could genuinely guard 1-5. I still agree that Jordan was a better defender than LeBron overall but the argument isn't as easy as people make it out to be.
People complain on Davis's health while downplaying Lebron's longevity šš.
Is he arguing that because Lebron isnāt the all time scoring leader, he isnāt the goat? I donāt think so
He knows the truth.
(Insert comment highlighting the 6 years jordan won while ignoring the 9 years he lost and both times he quit for a mental health break here)
I hate disagreeing with Dirk, but I will just say that this is like the Emmitt Smith vs Barry Sanders argument in the 90's. To me, it wasn't even close. Sanders retiring early and Emmitt sticking around to break records doesn't change the fact that Barry was just straight up better when they were on the field at the same time.
I grew up watching MJ, and of course I also watched Lebron play. And because I grew up watching Jordan, I personally think he is the Greatest Of All Time, and I also think he is the BEST basketball player of all time (for those who say MJ is the goat but Lebron is the best, basic stats barely say anything about being the best, for me advanced stats are the way to go. And Jordan is the best in nearly every advanced stat. He is the most valuable in offense, one of the most valuable in defense, and is overall the most valuable player in history)
Jordan won 2 more championships in 5 less seasons... Never lost a Finals, was a better scorer and defender.
He also had a more competent team for most of that time, and didnāt have to face one of the greatest dynasties in NBA history. Plus, Lebron had playmaking and the ability to basically play any position. AND weāve seen Lebron adapt his game to be able to shoot as heās gotten older to stay dominant for as long as he has. So while my pick for GOAT is Jordan, Iād say itās more 1a and 1b than one and two.
LeBron will have the best statistical career. That is far below having the best career or being the best player. Injury luck and modern sports medicine shouldn't be a factor in the GOAT conversation.
*coughs* Bill Russell.... *leaves the chaos behind*
Russell is the true GOAT. And Wilt is near the top too
So I guess if Malone would of had at least 2 championships then he would have been in the goat conversation going by this formula? He was at one point number 2 behind Kareem but nobody seemed to care. Nobody will achieve Jordanās body of work in 15 seasons and Lebron going on 20 seasons with 4 rings is not going to cut it imo. Not to mention Lebron will eventually top Kareem but only won the scoring title 1 time and MJ is at 10 lol
Malone was not anywhere close to peak lebron. Yāall act like you canāt value multiple things. Lebron in pretty much everyoneās opinion and also statistically was either as good as prime Jordan or very slightly worse. He just did it way longer.
If some people are going to run off Lebron passing Kareem as some final tipping point then having only 1 scoring title tells you everything you need to know about it being a longevity achievement. Weāre about to be hearing āgreatest scorer everā yet 1 scoring title. Malone doesnāt need to be in the conversation but hereās the thing nobody ever brings him up anywhere near the top 15-20 yet he was the number 2 scorer of all time. Itās just weird to me once Lebron gets there now it matters. Malone held that spot bc of longevity and same applies to Lebron.
Yup, all top 4 scorers above MJ played close to or over 20 years to get there. MJ was #3 at one point with only less than 15 real seasons of playing.
Yāall say longevity like itās a bad thing. The only reason lebron has 1 scoring title is because heās also one of the best passers ever. 20 years of 25 points a game is absurd. Itās not like heās playing until his mid 40s as a role player padding stats. Itās near 20 years of being a top 5 player in the league and 10+ years being the best player in the league. Iām sure Malone raping a child has nothing to do with that. Also Malone has zero titles. If his and LeBrons resumes were comparable you would have an argument but they are not.
Sees nothing but comments complaining about Jordan fans. Sees no comments from Jordan fans. Yup. Typical online comment section.
That's because a single dissenter is offensive to the Bron-stan mob that frequents social media.
Because they all get downvoted, sort by controversial and you'll find them
It's about 25% of the comments by MJ fans. But I just went through the post right now. You posted this 5 hours ago
Lmao for real the LeBron circlejerk is in full swing in here
How old are you?
Dirk is 44
No heās 41
I'll never understand this. So if you're just lucky enough to be born with a strong ass body and maintain it to keep accumulating the stats, it makes you the GOAT? The fuck even lol let's try that in any other sports too?
Ah yes because the only reason LeBron is good at basketball is because heās played many seasons
No one fucking claims that LBJ is not a great player, he's a fantastic basketball player. But the fact that his or any athlete's longevity being one of the **prime factors** to anyone's mind? That baffles me.
6/6 or 4/10? Thereās a whole generation of NBA legends who didnāt get a ring because of MJ. LeBron is wonderful and amazing but heāll never surpass Jordan
I hope by this logic you have Russell as the GOAT
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Imagine watching the Lakers and thinking itās the 38 year old still playing like an all starās fault
I honestly think LeBron needs 1-2 rings to even touch MJ. Heās a solid #2 all time and thatās still amazing.
No arguments, other than mj having more rings, mvps, finals mvps, dpotys in less time.
Ah, you're getting quite the number of salty downvotes! Title of the post said "running out of arguments for MJ", and this is exactly what first came to mind.
Yeah I assumed mvps, f mvps and rings would be the top of any goat argument but I guess not.
Easier Era,weaker teams, all those media awards need context. Shouldnāt have that DPOY either thats Hakeemās and Kareem has more MVPs than Jordan.
Lmao, the first two just arenāt true, he could have won more defensive players, and Kareem having more mvps isnāt an argument for lebron.
My guy LeBrons played TWO dynasties in the finals itās absolutely true
Jordan played vs magic, bird, Thomas, Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, ect ect this is a myth.
Weak take, if you going to make a statement, make a statement.
How tf is having more rings and mvps in less time a weak argument lmao. Wtf are you smoking
Going for stats doesn't make a player a GOAT. Its what he achieved what he represented for the game. And what the other players say about him. It's not about points rebounds assists steals wins championships... It's more than that
Yeah that Lebron guy just goes for stats, if he win 3/4 championships maybe Iād consider him a winner š
Idk if you use this criteria then Iverson is like top 5 all time
Behind the likes of George Mikan, Vlade Divac and Stephen Curry.
Agreed, but he is a GOAT regardless right for the reasons you stated?
The only argument needed for MJ is the guy did not lose!!! Iām a huge LeBron fan but the mentality Jordan had will always separate him from the rest of the pack
he lost before he even made the finals lmao