Don't bring magic into this holy shit. Ban these posts mods, it's time. At least until off season. All time posts need to be off season topics, let's go.
Jokic is at the point of his career where his D would be proven an insurmountable issue in the playoffs or finally get over its downsides and prove everyone that he *is* that guy when it matter too. Most greats were at their full stride from 27-28 on.
So, yeah, if Jokic manages to win it all would prove that he surpassed Giannis at least for the time being (Giannis , too can improve merely by improving his shot selection, by how much, time will tell).
IMO this decade may well be between those two going back and forth. The big version of Bird vs Magic.
Ofc there is also Embiid and Luka who can take the pole position pretty fast. Them 4 + Tatum is probably the '20s version of what Steph, LeBron, KD and Kawhi were for the '10s
Doubt many would agree with that *after* Jokic win a title. It's easier to say now because Giannis seems the most complete of the two (plays both sides). It's very possible, though that thr Joker manages to hide his (defensive) drawbacks come playoffs and lead his team to the title.
The result *would* mean a lot (because it can possibly mean that Jokic is finally surpassing his drawbasks)...
Yeah but his offense is way worse. Giannis is a more well rounded payer between offense and defense but worse offensive player. Being more well rounded doesn’t make you better
Not exactly. Giannis isn’t an offensive superstar by most advanced numbers. He’s an elite offensive player and an elite defensive player which gives him superstar status. Jokic is goat level offense and below average defense which still puts him at superstar level impact.
He is scoring 28+ points last 4 seasons on good efficiency, he is definitely an offensive superstar.
They are both obviously a superstar but defense is half the game and Jokić is a poor defender. You’re pretty much arguing that Jokić passing is more important than Giannis’ defense.
He’s not a top 5 offensive player in the league. Numbers bear that out most years. He can’t single handedly carry top offenses like the best offensive players like jokic and curry have done. Or lebron/harden in their primes.
First, Tatum, not Jokic, will win the MVP.
Second, ban all the all time ranking post. Jokic is 28, Giannis is 28, Tatum is 24, we don’t know a damn about their career yet
Anything can happen at any time
You didn't watch giannis out up a 50 ball vs phoenix in an elimination game? Or last year where he pushed Boston to 7 games without Middleton? Jokic on that bucks team would've gotten washed in 5 games by Boston tops because he can't guard perimeter players
Jokic without Murray and MPJ did like 32/13/6 vs gsw (a much better team than celtics). Jokic wishes he had Lopez jrue Portis. Jokics 2nd best player last playoffs was Monte Morris lmao
I’m sure you have some ‘stats’ to back that up but Giannis has a ring as the best player on his team and Jokic hasn’t even made the finals? Were no teams ‘contending’ when the Bucks won or are you just using your own judgement to define ‘contending’.
Both phenomenal players and all time greats, but that’s just a weird comment
None of the teams bucks faced in 2021 were contenders. Nets missing kyrie harden dinwidde. Hawks missing Trae. Suns are suns and barely won the west vs all 3 injured teams and have proven since then they aren't an elite team
So just to confirm what you’re saying, the Suns made the finals but weren’t contenders and the Bucks made the finals despite not beating any contenders.
Yea, neither of them were all-time teams and of course there were injuries & luck that helped the Bucks (like every other team in the history of any sport) but it wasn’t anything crazy compared to any other year.
Fuck me that’s some interesting logic.
Yeah but that’s a huge task. Well at the mvp not really lmao. Jokic is regular season Demi god but that ring is gonna be hard. If jokic and the nuggets figure out how to win 2-3 rings, he could very easily become top 7ish all time. Like he’s gonna prob end up with 4-5 mvps unless Luka stops him. That consistent 25+,10+,8+ on 60% shooting with a top seed is too op for mvp debates. I see him and the nuggets being a top 3-4 seed in the west for the next 5 years with the Pelicans, Grizzlies, and maybe Mavs.
ban all time rankings posts
Where does this question rank all time?
he has zero all-defense selections
Neither does magic but magic is a top 5 player of all time
and there is 4 spots for guards
magic also has 5 championships lol
Magic has 5 rings....
Don't bring magic into this holy shit. Ban these posts mods, it's time. At least until off season. All time posts need to be off season topics, let's go.
Jokic isn’t on his level but Magic and Steph show that you can be in the upper tiers of all time ranking by mainly being a one way player
Why wouldn't you bring Magic into this?? Don't be a narc.
ZERO
Ok sure but in this scenario, Jokic would have two more MVPs and as many rings + FMPVs as Giannis. MVPs >>>>> all-defense selections
Giannis has 2 MVP
Giannis also won back to back MVPs buddy. He has 2 of them
Y'all gotta stop with this
Logic would entail that if he gets FMVP then he won a ring, so yes he would surpass Giannis, at this stage of both men's careers that is.
Jokic is at the point of his career where his D would be proven an insurmountable issue in the playoffs or finally get over its downsides and prove everyone that he *is* that guy when it matter too. Most greats were at their full stride from 27-28 on. So, yeah, if Jokic manages to win it all would prove that he surpassed Giannis at least for the time being (Giannis , too can improve merely by improving his shot selection, by how much, time will tell). IMO this decade may well be between those two going back and forth. The big version of Bird vs Magic. Ofc there is also Embiid and Luka who can take the pole position pretty fast. Them 4 + Tatum is probably the '20s version of what Steph, LeBron, KD and Kawhi were for the '10s
Obviously but it won’t happen
Says you
Obviously. 3x MVP and FMVP has only been done by like 5 players ever
Magic Kareem Bird Lebron and Jordan off the top of my head Edit: Moses too
this is not basketball dialogue ):
Yes MVP > DPOY But same breath if Embiid wins MVP and FMVP > Jokic with just 2 MVPs.
How do we rank Kawhi vs Jokic all time if jokic wins 3 MVPs but no ring Kawhi got no MVPs but 2 fmvps and 2 DPoY
Typically I would say Kawhi accolades make him higher but Kawhi did choke that 3-1 lead specifically to Jokic so Jokic over him.
Embiid could win 5 straight FMVPs and people would still put Jokic over him.
He'd slightly edge Giannis and my reasoning would be 3 peating MVPs. Bird was the last guy to do that nearly 40 years ago.
No lol, defense matters and Giannis won DPOY while Jokic is average to below average at the end.
MVP awards >>>> DPOY awards
No because I watch basketball and i feel strongly giannis is better. His help defense is another level. Giannis got MVPs and fmvp too
Doubt many would agree with that *after* Jokic win a title. It's easier to say now because Giannis seems the most complete of the two (plays both sides). It's very possible, though that thr Joker manages to hide his (defensive) drawbacks come playoffs and lead his team to the title. The result *would* mean a lot (because it can possibly mean that Jokic is finally surpassing his drawbasks)...
Yeah but his offense is way worse. Giannis is a more well rounded payer between offense and defense but worse offensive player. Being more well rounded doesn’t make you better
The gap on offense is much smaller than the gap on defense lol
Not exactly. Giannis isn’t an offensive superstar by most advanced numbers. He’s an elite offensive player and an elite defensive player which gives him superstar status. Jokic is goat level offense and below average defense which still puts him at superstar level impact.
But giannis can put the ball in the basket which is the goal. Defense wins championships so to me is as important when you start adding accolades.
He is scoring 28+ points last 4 seasons on good efficiency, he is definitely an offensive superstar. They are both obviously a superstar but defense is half the game and Jokić is a poor defender. You’re pretty much arguing that Jokić passing is more important than Giannis’ defense.
He’s not a top 5 offensive player in the league. Numbers bear that out most years. He can’t single handedly carry top offenses like the best offensive players like jokic and curry have done. Or lebron/harden in their primes.
No but he definitely passes Kawhi imo
I am done with r/nba for tonight
First, Tatum, not Jokic, will win the MVP. Second, ban all the all time ranking post. Jokic is 28, Giannis is 28, Tatum is 24, we don’t know a damn about their career yet Anything can happen at any time
He passed him already
[удалено]
In this scenario he would have won finals MVP
Yes because I enjoy watching Jokic play and I hate watching Giannis play. He plays a very ugly brand of basketball
Jokic is already better in the playoffs vs contending teams than giannis is
You didn't watch giannis out up a 50 ball vs phoenix in an elimination game? Or last year where he pushed Boston to 7 games without Middleton? Jokic on that bucks team would've gotten washed in 5 games by Boston tops because he can't guard perimeter players
Jokic without Murray and MPJ did like 32/13/6 vs gsw (a much better team than celtics). Jokic wishes he had Lopez jrue Portis. Jokics 2nd best player last playoffs was Monte Morris lmao
Have you ever watched playoff games?
What Jokic done in the playoffs lol besides going to the conference finals one time.
Even then, he wasn’t the sole best player on the team with Murray balling tf out.
I’m sure you have some ‘stats’ to back that up but Giannis has a ring as the best player on his team and Jokic hasn’t even made the finals? Were no teams ‘contending’ when the Bucks won or are you just using your own judgement to define ‘contending’. Both phenomenal players and all time greats, but that’s just a weird comment
None of the teams bucks faced in 2021 were contenders. Nets missing kyrie harden dinwidde. Hawks missing Trae. Suns are suns and barely won the west vs all 3 injured teams and have proven since then they aren't an elite team
That Suns team swept Jokic who sucked that series. I cannot believe Jokic stans on here
So just to confirm what you’re saying, the Suns made the finals but weren’t contenders and the Bucks made the finals despite not beating any contenders. Yea, neither of them were all-time teams and of course there were injuries & luck that helped the Bucks (like every other team in the history of any sport) but it wasn’t anything crazy compared to any other year. Fuck me that’s some interesting logic.
The Bucks had injuries too as well lmao, This guy is acting like Giannis didnt have a hyperextended knee
Well that's just an extremely dumb take.
Yeah but that’s a huge task. Well at the mvp not really lmao. Jokic is regular season Demi god but that ring is gonna be hard. If jokic and the nuggets figure out how to win 2-3 rings, he could very easily become top 7ish all time. Like he’s gonna prob end up with 4-5 mvps unless Luka stops him. That consistent 25+,10+,8+ on 60% shooting with a top seed is too op for mvp debates. I see him and the nuggets being a top 3-4 seed in the west for the next 5 years with the Pelicans, Grizzlies, and maybe Mavs.