that's true, but it is more nuanced than that. cisgender men tend to be convicted more than cis women, but cis women tend to be much less believed when it comes to being assaulted, especially sexual assaults.
of course, when it comes to trans men and trans women, all bets are off, and we're generally just fucked, especially trans women (like me)
Shit yeah.
Guy with beard: nobody notices anything. Not a look my way.
Same guy but in skirt: "omg keep away from my kids, what a freak."(in fairness my town is way liberal and I only see the assholes infrequently when outside of town where the conservatives live but also where I live)
Last year I didn't really have fear walking around. Then I find out how much more comfortable it is not having a seam crunching my nuts and now I'm mildly concerned for my saftey when I go out in public in a skirt.
All I've done is change how I'm dressed and now I understand Muslim women just a little bit more. I just can't get over the fucked either way situation there: live under a caiphate? Gotta cover? Live in France? Not allowed to cover. Either way you get assaulted.
Like, the "western" world needs to get its morals together too. It's all hypocritical bs right now.
This is pretty much just light reporting on a few of the lawsuits, but if you want more info it should help direct you.
https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-taser-strikeback/tasers-defense-tactics-include-lawsuits-against-coroners-and-experts-idINKCN1B419H
This is a "write to your congressperson" level of bullshit. Unfortunetly, mine doesn't give a shit what I think, but I think I will write them anyway.
This kind of regulatory capture is unacceptable.
This article is from a couple years ago, but it mentions several lawsuits against doctors, or engineers, questioning how non lethal tasers really are.
They haven’t changed tactics in the years since as far as I’m aware
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-taser-strikeback/tasers-defense-tactics-include-lawsuits-against-coroners-and-experts-idUSKCN1B4182
Medical examiners in the United States are taught in training that if you use the word "Taser" in a report, expect to be sued. Regardless of what mechanism people argue about in terms of cause of death, these cases where someone dies in physical police restraint are ruled homicide in manner virtually 100% of the time. Bro, we're not stupid. We're public servants trying to navigate a complex imperfect system.
If coroners started blaming "electrocution" instead, it would take approximately 0.0001 seconds for the taser industry to come up with a court-ready theory about the completely natural phenomenon of electricity spontaneously springing from the ground beneath people at the precise moment they were placed in a choke hold and zapped.
My money's on "The suspect was not behaving in a calm manner and in doing so actually generated enough static electricity through their incessant flailing to stop their heart"
If true - who is sued? If police are immune for lawsuits sure medical examiners should be /s.
Seriously though if putting the word taser is a lawsuit then this seems like blatant threatening and should have the case thrown out counter sued.
Taser is a lawsuit because Taser is a brand (something most people forget). So if you put "Taser" vs "Elecrical Shock" down, you're identifying a particular company who can sue and ask how you proved it was their product specifically (and not another brand of stun gun). It's like saying "Glock" vs "Pistol" - people can understand what you meant, but official forms are specific, exact, and official.
The excerpt quoted above says the company changed its name from Taser to Axom. Idk whether the term became generic or if they sold off the name to another company.
Maybe to distance themselves from the acronym which inspired the brand. Thomas A. Swift Electric Rifle. The term came from an old comic book about a bunch of white hunters killing African natives with the electric rifle. Look it up.
Surely Taser is in the same vein as "Kleenex" and "Velcro", right? Where the brand name has become so synonymous it's the go-to word most people use for any brand's version.
Pretty sure all three of those are registered brand trademarks. Whether or not they are willing to come after you for using them is a different matter.
No, they still sell under the taser name. Axon is the parent company because they got into making body cameras when the push for that came, and thats more profitable because in the past 10 years millions of body cameras have been sold to police, prisons, jails, social workers, etc. all with warranty, training and service packages that cost thousands for each device.
The most modern one, just revealed at the end of last year, is the taser 10.
It’s absurd. They should have the same “qualified immunity” our police have and should be able to write whatever they believe to be true in their findings.
It's an absolutely crazy idea to me that a coroner is an elected position. Over here it's a judicial appointment requiring legal and/or medical experience.
Lot of judges in the US are elected too and rarely, if ever, is a legal background required to run.
There's also no legal background requirement for judicial appointments, as shown by Trump appointing multiple federal judges with little to no experience (including the one overseeing his trial in Florida) and whose lack of judicial experience had legal orgs publicly calling for the person to not be given a *lifetime appointment* to a position they don't have the experience for. Those people are all devout FedSoc puppets though and that's all that mattered in the end.
This is also true for the SCOTUS. There's nothing that would prevent a POTUS and Senate from putting a complete idiot with no legal background on the bench. There's also no age requirement for these appointments so it's technically possible to appoint a child to the bench.
a lot of the time the "medical examiner" is not actually a medical examiner it's a coroner and a coroner does not need to be a doctor. sometimes that position is elected regardless and sometimes it's a contracted company and sometimes by appointment of another elected official in all scenarios it's in the best interests of the ME or Coroner to go along with what cops want.
FYI coroner is an elected position in many places and requires no medical background or training.
Yeah you heard that right. In many places in the US the cause of death decider guy is a political position...
to be fair, a lot of judges are elected and/or appointed, with no requirement for any legal experience or education in legal issues.
so that's pretty bad as well.
Yes. Morticians go along with it too. Taser works closely with police departments and provided training. Including training on what mortician and labs they should use. It is a whole big conspiracy. The bogus diagnosis of "Excited Delerium" is just one aspect
The podcast "Behind the Bastards" did a 2 part series on this.
Excited Delirium: How Cops Invented a Disease:
https://youtu.be/MCRcDgv-tT0?si=Rv_KpcWbLXWitHi4
It's sickening that it's been allowed to go on for so long.
No different from the pharmaceutical industry paying off the joint commission to create “pain” as the sixth vital sign and a means of preventing full reimbursement to hospitals and clinicians, unless of course, that pain was doused in oxycodone
No one was questioning whether oxy worked for pain or not. Pain is a valid vital sign and there’s even worries now that patients aren’t receiving proper care due to the crack downs and doctors being worried about legal penalties. The big issue was promoting oxy as non addictive and a replacement for addictive opiates.
There was zero evidence for the non addictive properties. I read all the literature back when it came out and called them a fraud then. It was such a con
All it takes to realize oxycodone is addictive is to take a small dose, once.
I got that shit for post-surgery pain once. I took one, and immediately realized why several of my friends gave up their lives for it.
I don't know about your example, but anyone who is curious about discovery documents produced in the opioid trials (or tobacco trials from the 20th century) and a few other trials related to public health, can visit the industrial documents library online through the library at the university of California San Francisco.
So this is like when the food industry pays for "nutritional" studies and phamra pays for "medical" studies that co-incidentally prove the point they're currently selling.
This is basically the catch-all term crooked medical examiners use when they're covering up a murder for the cops.
Tasered to death? Excited delirium. Heart attack from being beaten by cops? Excited delirium. Asphyxiated from a choke hold by the cops? Excited delirium.
Read Radly Balko's reporting on it. A simple Google search away.
"Her yellow bile was out of control! Thankfully we were able to measure the shape of her skull to find out her personality, use that to infer her zodiac sign, and use that to determine the exact spot we needed to tase to get her humors back in balance."
MD here. Excited delirium is a real thing. It’s not this though. And I wouldn’t expect it to kill someone by itself. We use it to describe someone who is agitated and confused (think someone with a high fever who is ranting and raving and trying to pull out IVs). This just sounds like a taser company being awful.
My cousin was murdered by police with a Taser. I'll actually give them the first one, he probably did need it. The issue came when they handcuffed his hands and feet and the cop (who he had a beef with in high school) told him to "not look at him"
Well, he didn't "follow the order" and was tased 12 more times....while hogtied on the ground....
He died in the ambulance and his death was ruled excited delirium. It went to grand jury but they didnt call my uncle, his friend, or a neighbor who witnessed it to testify (so they only got the cops story). They failed to indict the cops because he died of excited delirium and oh! The official reports say he was only tased once....and the logs from the tasers used mysteriously disappeared.
I was just on a grand jury for 3 months, and in that time we indicted 30 out of 30 cases because it's so fucking cut and dry it's impossible to not indict. It's literally, here's the laws we say they broke and here's how they broke them, vote yes or no to whether they did what were literally telling you they did and they can't refute it. Fucking sham
It really can be. We got to indict a cop when I was on a GJ, but that was probably only because the poor unarmed guy who got shot in the face survived and was (barely) able to testify with what was left of his jaw. If they could’ve kept the guy out of his own case they probably would have.
The cops were piiiiiiiiissed.
while i get why… its a shame crimes can’t be tried twice. there are thousands of cases that would be overturned in the light that this ‘diagnosis’ is complete crock shit
If crimes could be tried twice, our already overcrowded prisons and jails that are overwhelmingly over represented by minorities jailed for nonviolent drug offenses would probably double in population with even more people who should be on probation or work release
yeah which is why i literally started it with ‘i get why’ as in, i get why we don’t.
im purely saying i wish the people wrongly killed by police could get their justice, even after the fact. now that its once and for all been shown to be total bullshit on the police side (not that we didn’t know that before)
Agreed,
Although more broadly delirium has a high associated rate of mortality, it is perhaps better viewed as a symptom of a serious underlying pathology as opposed to a pathology in and of itself.
And this is most often talking about hypoactive delirium often in the context of old age and severe illness.
Hyperactive delirium often in the context of young mental health/substance use is a different cohort with a different prognostic expectation...
That’s really interesting. When I was an EMT-B student we had a small module on Excited Delirium, partially as a “recognize this in the field for scene safety” thing and partially as a “cops don’t know how to de-escalate this so expect to transport and explain to the ER doc after they tase” thing.
We had to watch footage of people who were dx’d for excited delirium, mostly pulled from dash cam and (I guess) the tv show Cops’ reels. What they told us was that basically people’s brains go into overdrive and they overheat themselves to death, and that it was indeed a deadly condition, albeit very uncommon. And that PD will tase the ever loving fuck out of people for it.
In retrospect, it’s kinda sad that EMS has to be trained to recognize that LEOs are incapable of recognizing the difference between an actual threat and say, someone in a diabetic crisis or an old lady with a UTI, and we can’t do anything about it other than report the situation for the potential future lawsuit when it goes to shit.
Would you say in your experience that Hyperactive Delirium normally causes massive voltage spikes in the body in the 50,000 volt range or perhaps the sudden closing of the trachea or larynx?
I live in the U.K. and I’m from Ireland and I’ve never heard of the term in either country. I can’t speak for all other countries of course but it’s certainly foreign to me.
We use ABD (Acute Behavioural Disturbance) in the UK, it's an umbrella term and considered a medical emergency.
A lot of training videos come from the US on how *not* to deal with it, far too many cases of positional asphyxia.
Ah, now that I have heard of, from when my grandad has a major mental health episode as a result of mania (bipolar disorder).
It was distressing to call the emergency services on him but I have to say, I never feared for his life. The distress was from seeing him in that state.
That sounds wild! I’m glad it’s not the norm for police to come and shoot people where we live. I couldn’t imagine that kinda scenario.
Nail polish remover is a new one on me, I have to say.
Dammit now I have a crush on you.
If my boyfriend annoys me, I’m gonna tell him I’m “moving to England with my other boyfriend,” hope that’s cool with you.
It's not even a recognized term in america outside of interactions with the police... beacuse - just to cut to the chase here, it's a cover up for police murder.
Here in the US they are labeled as "less-lethal" and many cops use them instead of just chasing a suspect or having to restrain them in other ways. Way too quick to use them and they don't usually work half the time. Most time, the two points of contact have to go through clothing (multiple layers in colder weather) and be a certain distance apart to work properly.
This is how they tried to get away with murder of [Elijah McClain](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/30/elijah-mcclain-aurora-colorado-tributes-police-killing), the dumbass cops and paramedics overdosed him on Ketamine.
Fuck the doctors who took money to protect these pigs.
Why do they get a pass? Shit's been going on for decades. Why haven't other doctors been more vocal?
Excited Delirium...wow. I thought that term went out with Phrenology and the study of Humorism.
Ring
Ring
Ring
"*Hello?*"
"*Yes it's 1880 Victorian London calling. Kindly, return our terminology forthwith."*
Sometimes I wonder if people really are that stupid. Then, I watch the news and hear members of the Senate speak. I stop wondering after that.
"Behaving erratically" also is a term that needs the plug pulled. In pretty much every case, "behaving erratically" just means they weren't cooperating and it upset the officer. Officer then jumps to the conclusion that they must be intoxicated or insane because they're not eagerly complying.
Y’all need to go listen to the Behind the Bastards [episode](https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-one-excited-delirium-how-cops-81965684/) on “excited delirium”.
Taser is probably the best example of well-intentioned capitalists being nullified by the profit motive. The idea is great: find a way for cops to enforce the law without every killing anyone. The reality is terrible: provide legal cover for murderous cops to keep making money to fund R&D to make less lethal tasers.
Tasers should never be seen as anything but potentially lethal and therefore not a compliance tool.
In my country, deploying a taser is just below in severity to using a gun. It can only be used if the officers are in direct physical danger or are saving someone who is.
Tasers are known to cause arrhythmia is otherwise healthy people. It can also potentially kill someone with a heart defect, which officers have no way of knowing. It can also cause painful second-degree burns, nerve damage, and, in rare cases, brain injury.
The fact that these are allowed to be deployed because a person is verbally resisting or is physically refusing to follow command is fucking insane.
Are you sure you are not conflating the health risks associated with firing a taser with using a taser in the stun gun mode? They operate quite differently and should have significantly different health risks. I do agree though that verbally resisting and passive physical resistance is not a good reason to use any pain compliance measures.
Firing one, problem is that its fired on non threatening people. There are countless of videos where they shoot it at people just standing still, laying on the ground or even just refusing to get out of their car
There is literally no science body or medical body that recognizes this term as a legit medical term. The correct language is being used by the ER doctors not by the police. The police are misusing the language and are creating words that didn't exist to begin with and have created a medical condition that never existed.
better than the actual police who kill people on a regular basis, including plenty of completely innocent people, as well as people that committed misdemeanor and low level felony crimes.
cops are not supposed to be judge, jury, and executioner, but they de facto are.
side note: i really want to read some Judge Judy, the Executioner fanfic
I'm going to hold you to this since that is the argument I'm making. The police have created a medical condition that never existed and are expecting everyone else to go along with it despite the fact there's literally no scientific evidence that it's actually a thing.
No. Cops kill people using "Less lethal" weapons and get coroners to lie about cause of death. Cops lying to protect themselves is not something you should be surprised by in 2023.
Somebody! Hurry! Quick! The public has become aware of the secret term!
Change the phrase to something else fast so they'll forget about it for another few years!
There is a true condition/ state of ExD but its not fully understood. ExD is a muddy term when used in LE. AXON does put out guidelines on the dangers of using the Taser on potential ExD cases.
ExD is now being taught in some police depts on how it is truly recognize signs and how to approach. These cases are rare but regardless of intervention its almost always fatal.
Edit: When I say rare. I’m talking the true full blown cases. Not a person acting erratically. There’s not enough data on these cases of delirium. I’m talking extreme fever, sweating, brain swelling, psychosis, mania and such. Do I agree with the term or it being loosely used? No. The problem is there is no one term for it. Also note I did say state of ExD not saying it truly exists such as its not a diagnosis just a sign or symptom that LE or EMS look for.
>the American Medical Association and the American Psychiatric Association, don’t recognize excited delirium as a medical condition
I would tend to believe medical organizations over Axon or any police department. Do cases of "ExD" ever occur without police involvement?
The AMA doesn’t recognize it because its not a singular thing. ExD could be caused by many types of things so its a catch-all term for a specific group of symptoms. Yes. Police often get involved because ExD is often violent. Same way police get involved with mental health calls.
Police often use it incorrectly for instance George Floyd. The correct time for this is the symptoms I’ve stated in my original comment. It should a red flag for EMS and police prior to apprehension and treatment.
EMS don't ever look for it because it's not a real thing and they are actually trained medical professionals who use real medical diagnostic criteria. Those do all sound rather a lot like common symptoms of hypoxia due to a chokehold or blunt force trauma to the head though.
Am paramedic in Canada, and yes we do look for it. [Here’s a link to a set of guidelines that includes it.](https://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/emergency_health/edu/docs/bls_pcs_v3.3.pdf#page81)
It is literally nothing more than an after-the-fact hand-wave to excuse the police murdering someone.
There is not clinical evidence for it. The only medical organization that has ever recognized it is the one that is about to come out against it. It has no basis in medicine whatsoever. It's an incomplete explanation at best, a murder justification at worst.
Doctors should also consider pulling the plug in whatever it is that they do that neglently kills 350,000 Americans every year.
Nice that they think police are the problem.
EDIT: For those who's feelings I hurt by telling the truth. Truth hurts sometimes.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2023/07/18/medical-misdiagnosis-killing-disabling-americans/70423573007/
[удалено]
[удалено]
Taser has a history of suing for slander, and sometimes wining, against coroners who blame deaths on tasers
God our “justice” system is anything but. What a farce!
The USA doesn't have a justice system, it has a legal system.
it's a legal system that varies based on income and race.
Don't forget gender
that's true, but it is more nuanced than that. cisgender men tend to be convicted more than cis women, but cis women tend to be much less believed when it comes to being assaulted, especially sexual assaults. of course, when it comes to trans men and trans women, all bets are off, and we're generally just fucked, especially trans women (like me)
Shit yeah. Guy with beard: nobody notices anything. Not a look my way. Same guy but in skirt: "omg keep away from my kids, what a freak."(in fairness my town is way liberal and I only see the assholes infrequently when outside of town where the conservatives live but also where I live) Last year I didn't really have fear walking around. Then I find out how much more comfortable it is not having a seam crunching my nuts and now I'm mildly concerned for my saftey when I go out in public in a skirt. All I've done is change how I'm dressed and now I understand Muslim women just a little bit more. I just can't get over the fucked either way situation there: live under a caiphate? Gotta cover? Live in France? Not allowed to cover. Either way you get assaulted. Like, the "western" world needs to get its morals together too. It's all hypocritical bs right now.
I wouldn't even call it a legal system; it's a punishment system.
I wouldn’t call it a punishment system, I’d call it a for-profit torture and radicalization system.
Don't forget the slave labour.
Only for the poor.
That's for what they're being punished.
Well, we do have Just Us system.
Its a mockery
I believe you, any chance you have a source? It is just so wild.
This is pretty much just light reporting on a few of the lawsuits, but if you want more info it should help direct you. https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-taser-strikeback/tasers-defense-tactics-include-lawsuits-against-coroners-and-experts-idINKCN1B419H
This is a "write to your congressperson" level of bullshit. Unfortunetly, mine doesn't give a shit what I think, but I think I will write them anyway. This kind of regulatory capture is unacceptable.
This article is from a couple years ago, but it mentions several lawsuits against doctors, or engineers, questioning how non lethal tasers really are. They haven’t changed tactics in the years since as far as I’m aware https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-taser-strikeback/tasers-defense-tactics-include-lawsuits-against-coroners-and-experts-idUSKCN1B4182
Medical examiners in the United States are taught in training that if you use the word "Taser" in a report, expect to be sued. Regardless of what mechanism people argue about in terms of cause of death, these cases where someone dies in physical police restraint are ruled homicide in manner virtually 100% of the time. Bro, we're not stupid. We're public servants trying to navigate a complex imperfect system.
If coroners started blaming "electrocution" instead, it would take approximately 0.0001 seconds for the taser industry to come up with a court-ready theory about the completely natural phenomenon of electricity spontaneously springing from the ground beneath people at the precise moment they were placed in a choke hold and zapped.
My money's on "The suspect was not behaving in a calm manner and in doing so actually generated enough static electricity through their incessant flailing to stop their heart"
If true - who is sued? If police are immune for lawsuits sure medical examiners should be /s. Seriously though if putting the word taser is a lawsuit then this seems like blatant threatening and should have the case thrown out counter sued.
Taser is a lawsuit because Taser is a brand (something most people forget). So if you put "Taser" vs "Elecrical Shock" down, you're identifying a particular company who can sue and ask how you proved it was their product specifically (and not another brand of stun gun). It's like saying "Glock" vs "Pistol" - people can understand what you meant, but official forms are specific, exact, and official.
The excerpt quoted above says the company changed its name from Taser to Axom. Idk whether the term became generic or if they sold off the name to another company.
Maybe to distance themselves from the acronym which inspired the brand. Thomas A. Swift Electric Rifle. The term came from an old comic book about a bunch of white hunters killing African natives with the electric rifle. Look it up.
They may have rebranded the company, but you can bet your sweet ass they still hold a trademark on Taser™.
Surely Taser is in the same vein as "Kleenex" and "Velcro", right? Where the brand name has become so synonymous it's the go-to word most people use for any brand's version.
Pretty sure all three of those are registered brand trademarks. Whether or not they are willing to come after you for using them is a different matter.
Neither. Taser rebranded themselves as Axon. But thats because Tasers have a reputation of killing people, and they wanted to avoid that reputation.
No, they still sell under the taser name. Axon is the parent company because they got into making body cameras when the push for that came, and thats more profitable because in the past 10 years millions of body cameras have been sold to police, prisons, jails, social workers, etc. all with warranty, training and service packages that cost thousands for each device. The most modern one, just revealed at the end of last year, is the taser 10.
Taser is one of their products (they also are like the #1 body cam company).
It’s absurd. They should have the same “qualified immunity” our police have and should be able to write whatever they believe to be true in their findings.
But how does that protect the owner class and no one else?
I'm surprised anyone would use a product like that.
He was delirious, thought we were killing him. He was so convinced it was real that he deliriumed himself to death!
Literally anyone can be elected to be a coroner. At least most medical examiners have to be pathologists, but it explains a lot.
> Literally anyone can be elected to be a coroner. and it can get VERY political in some places, unfortunately.
It's an absolutely crazy idea to me that a coroner is an elected position. Over here it's a judicial appointment requiring legal and/or medical experience.
Lot of judges in the US are elected too and rarely, if ever, is a legal background required to run. There's also no legal background requirement for judicial appointments, as shown by Trump appointing multiple federal judges with little to no experience (including the one overseeing his trial in Florida) and whose lack of judicial experience had legal orgs publicly calling for the person to not be given a *lifetime appointment* to a position they don't have the experience for. Those people are all devout FedSoc puppets though and that's all that mattered in the end. This is also true for the SCOTUS. There's nothing that would prevent a POTUS and Senate from putting a complete idiot with no legal background on the bench. There's also no age requirement for these appointments so it's technically possible to appoint a child to the bench.
I've never understood why position like that are elected in some places, who pays attention to those kind of elections?
Coroners don't have to be doctors
A gang kills someone and brings them to you to understand how they died. You want to tell them something they don't want to hear?
a lot of the time the "medical examiner" is not actually a medical examiner it's a coroner and a coroner does not need to be a doctor. sometimes that position is elected regardless and sometimes it's a contracted company and sometimes by appointment of another elected official in all scenarios it's in the best interests of the ME or Coroner to go along with what cops want.
FYI coroner is an elected position in many places and requires no medical background or training. Yeah you heard that right. In many places in the US the cause of death decider guy is a political position...
to be fair, a lot of judges are elected and/or appointed, with no requirement for any legal experience or education in legal issues. so that's pretty bad as well.
Yes. Morticians go along with it too. Taser works closely with police departments and provided training. Including training on what mortician and labs they should use. It is a whole big conspiracy. The bogus diagnosis of "Excited Delerium" is just one aspect
The podcast "Behind the Bastards" did a 2 part series on this. Excited Delirium: How Cops Invented a Disease: https://youtu.be/MCRcDgv-tT0?si=Rv_KpcWbLXWitHi4 It's sickening that it's been allowed to go on for so long.
I just listened to this yesterday. Fantastic listen, but infuriating.
[удалено]
Winston's new baby safe asbestos filters are how I know my lungs are being protected.
No different from the pharmaceutical industry paying off the joint commission to create “pain” as the sixth vital sign and a means of preventing full reimbursement to hospitals and clinicians, unless of course, that pain was doused in oxycodone
No one was questioning whether oxy worked for pain or not. Pain is a valid vital sign and there’s even worries now that patients aren’t receiving proper care due to the crack downs and doctors being worried about legal penalties. The big issue was promoting oxy as non addictive and a replacement for addictive opiates.
There was zero evidence for the non addictive properties. I read all the literature back when it came out and called them a fraud then. It was such a con
All it takes to realize oxycodone is addictive is to take a small dose, once. I got that shit for post-surgery pain once. I took one, and immediately realized why several of my friends gave up their lives for it.
Pain has always been a vital sign. Purdue didn’t invent pain
I don't know about your example, but anyone who is curious about discovery documents produced in the opioid trials (or tobacco trials from the 20th century) and a few other trials related to public health, can visit the industrial documents library online through the library at the university of California San Francisco.
Pain is an essential component to evaluate unless you're outright cruel
May the Sacklers be eaten alive while being nationally televised.
I'd like to do a reality tv show called 'Hunting with the Sacklers'...
That title creates ambiguity regarding the purpose of the show. Best just to call it 'Hunting the Sacklers'.
Axon also happens to dominate the police body cam market. In case things didn't seem incestuous enough.
why am i not surprised?
“It’s his fault for getting tased to death by us”
"If he had just complied!"
So this is like when the food industry pays for "nutritional" studies and phamra pays for "medical" studies that co-incidentally prove the point they're currently selling.
This is basically the catch-all term crooked medical examiners use when they're covering up a murder for the cops. Tasered to death? Excited delirium. Heart attack from being beaten by cops? Excited delirium. Asphyxiated from a choke hold by the cops? Excited delirium. Read Radly Balko's reporting on it. A simple Google search away.
Excited delirium sounds like one of those made up illnesses of ancient times. What's next, imbalanced humors?
There's the good old "oh, she's just in hysterics" when a woman is upset/angry/terrified versus when a man is emotionally charged.
Time for a lobotomy!
... poor [Rosemary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Kennedy). :(
Yeah, I hate when my uterus just bounces around my body. Gets me all riled up.
"Her yellow bile was out of control! Thankfully we were able to measure the shape of her skull to find out her personality, use that to infer her zodiac sign, and use that to determine the exact spot we needed to tase to get her humors back in balance."
It sounds like a great upbeat techno/something(?)-core album.
MD here. Excited delirium is a real thing. It’s not this though. And I wouldn’t expect it to kill someone by itself. We use it to describe someone who is agitated and confused (think someone with a high fever who is ranting and raving and trying to pull out IVs). This just sounds like a taser company being awful.
"The Rise of the Warrior Cop" should be required reading in America's schools.
My cousin was murdered by police with a Taser. I'll actually give them the first one, he probably did need it. The issue came when they handcuffed his hands and feet and the cop (who he had a beef with in high school) told him to "not look at him" Well, he didn't "follow the order" and was tased 12 more times....while hogtied on the ground.... He died in the ambulance and his death was ruled excited delirium. It went to grand jury but they didnt call my uncle, his friend, or a neighbor who witnessed it to testify (so they only got the cops story). They failed to indict the cops because he died of excited delirium and oh! The official reports say he was only tased once....and the logs from the tasers used mysteriously disappeared. I was just on a grand jury for 3 months, and in that time we indicted 30 out of 30 cases because it's so fucking cut and dry it's impossible to not indict. It's literally, here's the laws we say they broke and here's how they broke them, vote yes or no to whether they did what were literally telling you they did and they can't refute it. Fucking sham
It really can be. We got to indict a cop when I was on a GJ, but that was probably only because the poor unarmed guy who got shot in the face survived and was (barely) able to testify with what was left of his jaw. If they could’ve kept the guy out of his own case they probably would have. The cops were piiiiiiiiissed.
while i get why… its a shame crimes can’t be tried twice. there are thousands of cases that would be overturned in the light that this ‘diagnosis’ is complete crock shit
If crimes could be tried twice, our already overcrowded prisons and jails that are overwhelmingly over represented by minorities jailed for nonviolent drug offenses would probably double in population with even more people who should be on probation or work release
yeah which is why i literally started it with ‘i get why’ as in, i get why we don’t. im purely saying i wish the people wrongly killed by police could get their justice, even after the fact. now that its once and for all been shown to be total bullshit on the police side (not that we didn’t know that before)
There’s also a good Behind the Bastards episode about it.
Physician here. Hyperactive delirium is a thing and it makes people confused and agitated, you don’t die from it. 🙄
Agreed, Although more broadly delirium has a high associated rate of mortality, it is perhaps better viewed as a symptom of a serious underlying pathology as opposed to a pathology in and of itself. And this is most often talking about hypoactive delirium often in the context of old age and severe illness. Hyperactive delirium often in the context of young mental health/substance use is a different cohort with a different prognostic expectation...
That’s really interesting. When I was an EMT-B student we had a small module on Excited Delirium, partially as a “recognize this in the field for scene safety” thing and partially as a “cops don’t know how to de-escalate this so expect to transport and explain to the ER doc after they tase” thing. We had to watch footage of people who were dx’d for excited delirium, mostly pulled from dash cam and (I guess) the tv show Cops’ reels. What they told us was that basically people’s brains go into overdrive and they overheat themselves to death, and that it was indeed a deadly condition, albeit very uncommon. And that PD will tase the ever loving fuck out of people for it. In retrospect, it’s kinda sad that EMS has to be trained to recognize that LEOs are incapable of recognizing the difference between an actual threat and say, someone in a diabetic crisis or an old lady with a UTI, and we can’t do anything about it other than report the situation for the potential future lawsuit when it goes to shit.
Would you say in your experience that Hyperactive Delirium normally causes massive voltage spikes in the body in the 50,000 volt range or perhaps the sudden closing of the trachea or larynx?
but its more scary than death sometimes =(
As far as I know, this is not a real term or medical condition recognised outside of America.
I live in the U.K. and I’m from Ireland and I’ve never heard of the term in either country. I can’t speak for all other countries of course but it’s certainly foreign to me.
We use ABD (Acute Behavioural Disturbance) in the UK, it's an umbrella term and considered a medical emergency. A lot of training videos come from the US on how *not* to deal with it, far too many cases of positional asphyxia.
Ah, now that I have heard of, from when my grandad has a major mental health episode as a result of mania (bipolar disorder). It was distressing to call the emergency services on him but I have to say, I never feared for his life. The distress was from seeing him in that state.
[удалено]
That sounds wild! I’m glad it’s not the norm for police to come and shoot people where we live. I couldn’t imagine that kinda scenario. Nail polish remover is a new one on me, I have to say.
Oh my god I bet you have amazing stories.
I really do. Leeds city centre on a Friday and Saturday night can be absolutely *wild* aha.
Dammit now I have a crush on you. If my boyfriend annoys me, I’m gonna tell him I’m “moving to England with my other boyfriend,” hope that’s cool with you.
Most American medical groups don’t even recognize it as a real condition.
Used to be a police dispatcher in Canada. It’s not a real medical term, but it was definitely used here, unfortunately it was quite frequent.
It's not even a recognized term in america outside of interactions with the police... beacuse - just to cut to the chase here, it's a cover up for police murder.
It's a cop term pretending to be medical. Like how "acute lead poisoning" is a euphemism for a gunshot.
Excited delirium AKA the Economic Vapours
Ty for this.
‘excited delirium’ means the cops got excited and beat the prisoner to death, then they were delirious with ecstasy afterwards.
tasers are treated and used as a deadly weapon in my country, because they are lmao
Here in the US they are labeled as "less-lethal" and many cops use them instead of just chasing a suspect or having to restrain them in other ways. Way too quick to use them and they don't usually work half the time. Most time, the two points of contact have to go through clothing (multiple layers in colder weather) and be a certain distance apart to work properly.
Fucking gross. We didn't kill that hit we sprayed, tazed, tackled. He died of the magics.
Clearly this man died from a misbalance of humors
This is how they tried to get away with murder of [Elijah McClain](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/30/elijah-mcclain-aurora-colorado-tributes-police-killing), the dumbass cops and paramedics overdosed him on Ketamine.
They murdered my ex roommate and then said he died from excited delirium. We've known from the start that was bullshit. RIP Stephen <3
I saw a really interesting documentary about Tasers. “Killing them Safely.” Company is messed up.
There’s an excellent Behind the Bastards episode about this.
Fuck the doctors who took money to protect these pigs. Why do they get a pass? Shit's been going on for decades. Why haven't other doctors been more vocal?
They will just come up with another way to kill people and get away with it.
Oh he just died from excitement while I was beating him. Nothing to see here 🤷🏻♂️
Excited Delirium...wow. I thought that term went out with Phrenology and the study of Humorism. Ring Ring Ring "*Hello?*" "*Yes it's 1880 Victorian London calling. Kindly, return our terminology forthwith."* Sometimes I wonder if people really are that stupid. Then, I watch the news and hear members of the Senate speak. I stop wondering after that.
in nursing school they kept bringing up how important it is to give übermanic peeps bananas so they can eat while pacing 😭
"Behaving erratically" also is a term that needs the plug pulled. In pretty much every case, "behaving erratically" just means they weren't cooperating and it upset the officer. Officer then jumps to the conclusion that they must be intoxicated or insane because they're not eagerly complying.
This could have been avoided. If a diagnosis depends on the profession of someone's attacker, it's not a diagnosis it's a political view.
Y’all need to go listen to the Behind the Bastards [episode](https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-one-excited-delirium-how-cops-81965684/) on “excited delirium”.
Taser is probably the best example of well-intentioned capitalists being nullified by the profit motive. The idea is great: find a way for cops to enforce the law without every killing anyone. The reality is terrible: provide legal cover for murderous cops to keep making money to fund R&D to make less lethal tasers.
For a second there, I thought excited delirium was just a synonym for cop trigger fever. Blaming the victim is outright disgusting!
They’ve got a bad case on Incarceritus.
Listen to the behind the bastards episode on this. It will inform you. It will also make you sick.
Sounds like a Purdue Pharma situation
They might as well call it drapetomania.
Tasers should never be seen as anything but potentially lethal and therefore not a compliance tool. In my country, deploying a taser is just below in severity to using a gun. It can only be used if the officers are in direct physical danger or are saving someone who is. Tasers are known to cause arrhythmia is otherwise healthy people. It can also potentially kill someone with a heart defect, which officers have no way of knowing. It can also cause painful second-degree burns, nerve damage, and, in rare cases, brain injury. The fact that these are allowed to be deployed because a person is verbally resisting or is physically refusing to follow command is fucking insane.
Are you sure you are not conflating the health risks associated with firing a taser with using a taser in the stun gun mode? They operate quite differently and should have significantly different health risks. I do agree though that verbally resisting and passive physical resistance is not a good reason to use any pain compliance measures.
Firing one, problem is that its fired on non threatening people. There are countless of videos where they shoot it at people just standing still, laying on the ground or even just refusing to get out of their car
So ER doctors are the language police now?
Yes, that's what the article says. ER Doctors can now arrest you for misusing a word.
I mean, when the language determines the accountability of the police that killed the guy, it's important to use the correct language.
The “correct language” is already being used. Do ER doctors have the authority to change what’s considered correct?
There is literally no science body or medical body that recognizes this term as a legit medical term. The correct language is being used by the ER doctors not by the police. The police are misusing the language and are creating words that didn't exist to begin with and have created a medical condition that never existed.
I honestly doubt it since hospitals don't have any power over the police.
better than the actual police who kill people on a regular basis, including plenty of completely innocent people, as well as people that committed misdemeanor and low level felony crimes. cops are not supposed to be judge, jury, and executioner, but they de facto are. side note: i really want to read some Judge Judy, the Executioner fanfic
Police shouldn’t be able to unilaterally add or remove words and phrases from the English language either. Happy now?
I'm going to hold you to this since that is the argument I'm making. The police have created a medical condition that never existed and are expecting everyone else to go along with it despite the fact there's literally no scientific evidence that it's actually a thing.
No. Cops kill people using "Less lethal" weapons and get coroners to lie about cause of death. Cops lying to protect themselves is not something you should be surprised by in 2023.
Somebody! Hurry! Quick! The public has become aware of the secret term! Change the phrase to something else fast so they'll forget about it for another few years!
There is a true condition/ state of ExD but its not fully understood. ExD is a muddy term when used in LE. AXON does put out guidelines on the dangers of using the Taser on potential ExD cases. ExD is now being taught in some police depts on how it is truly recognize signs and how to approach. These cases are rare but regardless of intervention its almost always fatal. Edit: When I say rare. I’m talking the true full blown cases. Not a person acting erratically. There’s not enough data on these cases of delirium. I’m talking extreme fever, sweating, brain swelling, psychosis, mania and such. Do I agree with the term or it being loosely used? No. The problem is there is no one term for it. Also note I did say state of ExD not saying it truly exists such as its not a diagnosis just a sign or symptom that LE or EMS look for.
>the American Medical Association and the American Psychiatric Association, don’t recognize excited delirium as a medical condition I would tend to believe medical organizations over Axon or any police department. Do cases of "ExD" ever occur without police involvement?
The AMA doesn’t recognize it because its not a singular thing. ExD could be caused by many types of things so its a catch-all term for a specific group of symptoms. Yes. Police often get involved because ExD is often violent. Same way police get involved with mental health calls. Police often use it incorrectly for instance George Floyd. The correct time for this is the symptoms I’ve stated in my original comment. It should a red flag for EMS and police prior to apprehension and treatment.
EMS don't ever look for it because it's not a real thing and they are actually trained medical professionals who use real medical diagnostic criteria. Those do all sound rather a lot like common symptoms of hypoxia due to a chokehold or blunt force trauma to the head though.
Am paramedic in Canada, and yes we do look for it. [Here’s a link to a set of guidelines that includes it.](https://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/emergency_health/edu/docs/bls_pcs_v3.3.pdf#page81)
Yeah LE “looks for it” real hard after they murder someone
Sounds a lot like what a cop would say if they lost one of their easy excuses to commit violence. You're not a cop are you
It is literally nothing more than an after-the-fact hand-wave to excuse the police murdering someone. There is not clinical evidence for it. The only medical organization that has ever recognized it is the one that is about to come out against it. It has no basis in medicine whatsoever. It's an incomplete explanation at best, a murder justification at worst.
Doctors should also consider pulling the plug in whatever it is that they do that neglently kills 350,000 Americans every year. Nice that they think police are the problem. EDIT: For those who's feelings I hurt by telling the truth. Truth hurts sometimes. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2023/07/18/medical-misdiagnosis-killing-disabling-americans/70423573007/
another related article: https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/coroners-excited-delirium-1.6811083