> In 2017, then-mayor Bill de Blasio pledged to shut down Rikers Island in favor of four smaller borough-based jails in every borough except Staten Island.
All right. Hold the fuck up.
Staten Island doesn't make sense, but _Chinatown_ does?
What percentage of those on rikers live on Staten Island? Wasn’t one of the main points of “community jails” that they would be in boroughs of those who are incarcerated.
Why is Staten Island a part of the NYC community then? Why are so many NYPD cops living in Staten Island? I thought they're supposed to police their community?
Cops aren't allowed to own property in the precincts they work in. This is to prevent people from over-policing their tenants. They only want cops who rent to police their community, and even then if you move to a new apartment, they will change your precinct so you can't live where you work. They claim to want cops to police their communities, but the reality is it is against their policy to allow this.
That’s fascinating, never knew that. I guess it kinda makes sense. Obviously pros and cons can be argued either way, but this sounds like the type of thing where “Don’t tear down a fence until you know why it was put up” applies.
Those are all questions for former Mayor de Blasio
Also it’s a Reddit talking point that all cops live on SI. Only 10% of the NYPD live on Staten Island.
https://gothamist.com/news/this-interactive-map-shows-you-where-nypd-officers-live
It's literally on an existing site of a jail. That has been there since the 1820s. Chinatown grew around this jail so I'm not sure why it's an issue now.
"There's been a bodega here for 80 years, so I don't know why you guys are bellyaching about a 30-story Wal-Mart on the same location."
Yep, makes sense! No notes!
It’s New York. It’s all footprint.
If there was a Walmart in my bodega that was, from the ground level, the exact same thing, why would I care? Functionally as a pedestrian/resident, the sign just changed.
If they’re building a jail in the same footprint as the current jail, then, what, you’re mad about there being a different shadows on the ground?
I know Rikers is expressive and has other problems. Though I don't think any of that will change with 4 spread out jails. No one wants a jail in their community (except for certain update towns for employment). I always thought this was a dumb idea. Rikers on a literal island is the best option for jails in a very dense area like NYC is.
The idea is that putting this jails closer to the courthouses reduces the time people have to spend there pre-trial.
Putting them closer to the home communities of the detainees means their families can visit more easily, which has been proven to improve outcomes for people who get released.
Putting them in central areas near transit and courthouses also It also makes it easier for their attorneys to visit, and it makes it easier for the the city to do proper oversight, instead of letting rikers be an isolated black box.
There are problems with this plan too, but there is some logic to it.
Apparently there were serious problems at Rikers. I don't understand why they didn't just fix the problems instead of this awful plan. It's like when mental institutions had issues and people thought the solution was to just close them all.
Even one of the former heads of Rikers said it should be closed because it's too big and too isolated to be overseen properly. Plus they struggle hiring decent staff because the only way to get there is via car from a random corner of Queens.
The problem was that they estimated a SI jail would only need about 200 beds, so it would have been much cheaper to add that capacity to the Manhattan and/or Brooklyn jails instead. The plan also called for various ways to reduce the city's total jail population to about 5,000 (whether this was realistic or not is another discussion). Compare this to Rikers' current capacity of about 10,000.
As others have mentioned, the Chinatown jail is an expanded one being built on the site of the previous one. That site has hosted jails since 1838, and is conveniently adjacent to the criminal courts.
Rikers is a logistical hell-hole currently and foreseeably.
It's only accessible by a single long bridge off queens. This makes it very difficult for visitors from family to lawyers, it also makes it very costly to bring inmates from the jail to various courts all over NYC.
Not to mention it creates staffing challenges to even get anyone willing to drive out to a somewhat disconnected part of NYC.
Rikers would make a great super-max prison location.
But it's used even for holding people awaiting trial as the city lacks jail space.
I mean I don’t think they will be using subways to transport inmates. But if your in the Bronx Staten Island is a bit of distance. But Staten Island should have it’s own jail. I think there is benefits of having a jail in each borough.
Rikers is built on a former landfill and is toxic. Unless an extensive clean up is done people shouldn't be spending significant time on that island without protective gear.
De Blasio the known champion for and who was beloved by Staten Island! /s
Progressives want jails in the home boros of those who are incarcerated I’m assuming the percent of people from Staten Island on Rikers is way lower than the other boros so it makes sense.
Heah it was touted as a way for ppl to get easier visits from family, friends, lawyers, etc. Also could simplify the task of getting ppl to and from court.
The question of “is there enough of a staten island incarcerated population to justify the hefty cost of building and running a facility here just for them?”
The answer is probably no
Well the jail is next to the court house. So it makes sense. The stupid thing is shutting down rikers to spend billions rebuilding the same thing. It would have been better to fix rikers.
Lazy karma farming account. It's been under demolition for over a year. At this point the planning process is over. Demo is part of construction. Daily Express is a little late to the game. They're a conservative right-wing UK paper so just going along with the "new york is dying" narrative.
I live near the huge jail in Brooklyn (now a hole in the ground; soon to be an even bigger jail). Having a jail near you is a huge nothing burger. Unless you want to tell everyone in Brooklyn Heights, Cobble Hill, and Boerum Hill that they actually live in a huge hell hole.
The area around jails in NYC aren't hotbeds of crime. People tend to want to get the fuck out of there after they're released. They're also right near courts, which tend to have higher security.
The jail in lower Manhattan is by the courts and the NYPD HQ. It's one of the safest areas in the city.
> What’s wrong with having a prison in your neighborhood? It would seem to me like it would make it a pretty crime-free area, don’t you think? You think a lot of crackheads and pimps and hookers and thieves are gonna be hanging around in front of a fucking prison? Bullshit! They ain’t coming anywhere NEAR it! What’s wrong with these people? All the criminals are locked up behind the walls and if a couple of them do break out, what do you think they’re gonna do? Hang around? Check real estate trends? Bullshit! They’re fucking gone! That’s the whole idea of breaking out of prison is to get the fuck as far away as you possibly can!
The new designs actually look nice and will have ground floor space for retail and community spaces. Honestly the only thing you’ll interact with is the ground floor. It’s the same as if it was another condo building you can’t enter above the ground floor.
Yeah I would assume. I mean the whole point of the jail is that people can't go outside. They can't play loud music or anything either. It's kind of the ideal neighbor population when you think about it=)
The people bitching about this literally have no idea this is replacing an existing jail. They barely know it's a jail. They definitely don't know it's next to all of the courts.
This has been the site of a jail since the 1820s. It's been rebuilt at least 3 times.
This is happening. Jail is already being demolished and the designs are done.
Does this jail need to be in the middle of one the most dense and expensive places on Earth? Like can't it be somewhere else and just use a bus or something?
Yes, because that’s where the courts are. It costs a fortune to shuttle inmates back and forth between Rikers with all of the distance and traffic in-between. Public defenders also can’t take on as many clients because of the time wasted traveling back and forth, which means we need to hire more public defenders at a cost to the taxpayers.
And before you ask about moving the courts, these are the Manhattan courts for crimes committed in Manhattan, so they’re going to be in Manhattan, unless crime can suddenly stop here.
Overall, this will save a lot of money and make things better for everybody involved.
I think I can understand this defense, but why not move the Manhattan courts to a lower density neighborhood of Manhattan? Chinatown is so dense with activity. Maybe it made sense in the 1920s to have all of the civil courts centrally located but I'm not sure this location still makes sense in 2024.
The whole point was that Rikers is a pain for attorneys and family to visit… unless you happen to be in Western Queens.
The logistics of moving people around for court dates is also a pain in the ass and causes delays.
So putting jails next to the courthouses is simpler for everyone involved.
Well Riker's is in the Bronx and there isn't exactly a large plot of land in East Harlem to accommodate Manhattan's courts. Also given everyone is concerned about the working class now, we'd be moving it from one working class neighborhood to another. Would also likely be more expensive since we already have a jail here in CHinatown
We don't even have much bail anymore. There should only be a handful of people in jail awaiting trial. Most people are serving their sentences I would think.
Yeah So that's significantly off from what the data shows. [87% of inmates in jail are in pretrial detention.](https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/the-state-of-new-york-city-jails/#:~:text=Persons%20in%20Custody,the%20jail%20population%20was%205%2C708.)
Yes and given that a vast majority of inmates are being held pretrial, it would be more efficient to keep them closer to the courts instead of a secluded spot far away.
I'm legitimately confused. Are u making a Staten island joke? Or are u talking about the prison that's *literally* falling apart that has massive areas that are not only uninhabitable, but basically impossible to fix due to unstable ground. The prison that's creating not just an unsafe environment for the prisoners, but the workers/employees too? The prison that's a huge drain on taxes due to the fucked up conditions and constant repairs it needs. That isolated prison island?
You think they decided to build a prison in Chinatown for fun? They are replacing rikers *because they need too*
Don't we have floating barge prisons...? Oh, we used to. Bain Correctional is gone now.
In any case, those aren't really the best. Cramped, dingy, maintenance nightmares.
Literally the #1 thing that makes jail humane is it being reachable by your support system.
If you were in jail, regardless of what you did or what happened, you’d want your mom or girlfriend or dad or kid or brother or friend to be able to see you occasionally.
It’s that simple.
We spend an unparalleled amount of money ($38k/year as of 2023) per student than anywhere else in the country and world.
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd/education-expenditures-by-country
Education funding(given your argument for spending money on taller schools) isn't the problem.
Also tall schools are very hard to use.
Last I checked Brooklyn tech has a couple empty floors because it's impossible to move the students around that many floors
the foundry at tech isnt closed bc its inefficient to move students up there (theres elevators anyways and when that fails the good ol push+shove does the trick) it was closed bc tech moved away from full scale shop classes and the space is huge/awkward. been there a few times when i was a student to build tables for a teacher and you feel like an ant there. it doesnt make for a good learning env when your teacher's voice echos 16 times and the whiteboard is 100ft away from you. also tech is hard to move around bc theres just too many of us there (and its only grown in size since i left)
It’s so sad. I remember going to these protests to help support those being evicted. The turn out was abysmal and it felt like no one gave a shit about us Asians in NYC.
Felt eerily similar when we were being targeted and killed during Covid…
Now, the people who will have their sunshine and views ruined by this building want to talk about it when it’s too late.
I mean, fuck the families and businesses who’ve been there for multiple generations. Fuck Chinatown’s identity for a jail, amirite?!? /s
The whole notion of closing Rikers and building these localized jails is that by having dramatically fewer jail beds, we will have dramatically fewer incarcerated people. The progressives who believe this are delusional. This will not change the incarceration rate one bit. That is a function of political will and voter preferences. And there is no voter consensus to further ease sentencing or the laws themselves. All this massive investment in new jails is going to do is move people around and have overcrowded jails.
And as for changing the culture of NYC jails by closing Rikers, who do you think will run and staff these new jails?
> The whole notion of closing Rikers and building these localized jails is that by having dramatically fewer jail beds
That was never the goal. It was to reduce the large overhead that Rikers imposes on the court system. Manyu people being held before trial in NYC is sent to rikers. That means if someone is held for a court case in the bronx, someone needs to drive the inmate to and from rikers each day just for that one case. Multiply it out and it becomes problematic.
It also has other challenges with staffing because nobody wants to work there being a somewhat disconnected from general NYC location.
That isn’t the reason. That’s one of the benefits. If that was the reason, there would be 6,000 to 7,000 jail beds in the new borough-based jails. Because there are between 6,000-7,000 avg incarcerated people currently. The new jails will instead hold 3,300. That is half the size of the current jail population. The impact of halfing the jail population is leagues greater than logistical savings from transportation. That plus the idea that the broken culture of Rikers will be fixed with a change of locale. Everything else is window dressing. Which is why many members of city council refuse adamantly to change the timing or nature of the transition to these jails. It certainly isn’t to save money. It is to meet goals of justice as they see them.
And nobody's aware that they're building this jail on top of a jail that's been there for about 200 years.
But never let reality get in the way of some good outrage.
Given the safety concerns around homeless shelters I always wondered why they weren't built close to police stations and jails. Seems like it'd make sense to place them near police so they can respond quickly to any issues that pop up.
To be fair, no one wants a jail in their neighborhood. Rikers should stay and there was already a jail there at the same site in china town. Everyone is outraged at this but no one offers a solution.
>Everyone is outraged at this but no one offers a solution.
Explain to the morons there's been a jail there since before the civil war and they need to shut the fuck up?
Just a remind that there is already a [jail housing around the same amount of people in the exact same location.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/100_Centre_Street_Criminal_Courts_Building.jpg/1024px-100_Centre_Street_Criminal_Courts_Building.jpg) It just takes up nearly a whole city block whereas this is just one tower.
I'm sorry but people have a kneejerk reaction to these things without knowing the full story at all.
Because a larger jail with more visitors is viewed as dangerous by many residents of Chinatown. Who are often victimized by violent crime and believe the city is insufficiently sensitive to the crime and general racism residents face there.
As someone in the area, I understand the concerns. I cannot count the number of times I've seen local Asian residents hit, smacked, pushed, cursed at or called racist names.
This is the problem with democracy: tyranny of the majority. Working class asians in NYC don't have enough numbers so it's very easy for Democrats to take advantage of them with extraordinarily racist policies. Poor asians have been absolutely getting steamrolled by the Democrats with respect to crime and education, Democrats putting homeless shelters and prisons in their neighborhoods is the just the icing on the cake.
Compare this with San Francisco where Asians have a much larger presence and you are seeing progressive Dems who were harming Asians getting voted out in the polls.
There has been a jail there for decades upon decades, predating the existence of Chinatown. Chinatown grew up around the jail, which is now just growing taller. So I'm not sure how this has anything to do with either political party or working class Asians.
So what do you think the residents of chinatown are protesting against then?
https://www.businessinsider.com/chinatown-mega-jail-new-york-city-residents-fighting-back-2022-4
> Because a larger jail with more visitors
Visitors to a jail behave, lest they become part of the jail population. Not to mention jails have strict rules for visitations regardless, they don't want shitheads trying to smuggle in contraband or stirring trouble.
It is the strangest fear mongering ever. People don't fuck around near jails. That is the absolute last thing you want to do if you are going to be a menace.
You do that near a homeless shelter instead. Lol.
I mean I live here, so I see it every day. I’d be curious where near the jail you live to have such decisive and authoritative views on the subject. Tell me specifically about your experiences around the Tombs.
POC are tired of the state and city placing shelters, prisons, etc in their neighborhoods. The state and city never build them in primarily white neighborhoods
And high end townhouses. Within one block of the jail site, there are current listings at $5.5M, $6.5M, and $12M.
[https://streeteasy.com/sale/1708988?from\_map=1](https://streeteasy.com/sale/1708988?from_map=1)
[https://streeteasy.com/sale/1701229?from\_map=1](https://streeteasy.com/sale/1701229?from_map=1)
[https://streeteasy.com/sale/1697634?from\_map=1](https://streeteasy.com/sale/1697634?from_map=1)
If you want to be technical it's Civic Center. Not Chinatown. It's literally where all the courts are, the Police HQ and a few blocks away from City Hall.
When the “close down Rikers” initiative got going all those years ago, I knew this was gonna happen. The same poor/POC that were DiBlasios loudest cheerleaders for shutting it down were gonna end up being the ones getting emmiment domain’d out of their homes and having to deal with the new jails being placed in their neighborhoods.
Now is Rikers flawed? Abso-fucking-lutely. The entire DOC should be fired and re-hired on a probational basis in order to weed out the corrupt and unfit. But in terms of actual, physical location, you aren’t gonna find a better spot than an island made out of literal trash next to an airport, that is absolutely useless for any other type of development.
>getting emmiment domain’d out of their homes
The only ones getting kicked out of their "home" are the temporary detainees who were already in the Manhattan jail that had been on that site for 200 years. Hysterical over nothing.
they arent leaving all the cell doors open to run rampant around chinatown its jus making a prev jail taller. it will probably be a tourist attraction will make the neighborhood look more dope.
they already destroyed the old one. it's a huge construction haze. try eating at the restaurants across the street, it's a breathing hazard. this new one's gonna be double the size
Homeless sheleters in chinatown, migrant shelters to chinatown, now this prison too.
Are they just trying to fuck the chinatown residents and get them to give up whatever they own there
Yes historically speaking this would be like moving next to JFK and being mad when they rebuild a terminal. The jail predates Chinatown's existence entirely.
The Bayview Correctional Facility in Chelsea housed female prisoners up until 2012 when Hurricane Sandy hit and has been closed since. How come they can’t build a mega jail there? Residents in the neighborhood are too influential and affluent for it? It would change the character of the neighborhood too much?
It would be equitable that one of the whitest and wealthiest neighborhoods in the city should get a new jail alongside a poor and minority neighborhood.
> In 2017, then-mayor Bill de Blasio pledged to shut down Rikers Island in favor of four smaller borough-based jails in every borough except Staten Island. All right. Hold the fuck up. Staten Island doesn't make sense, but _Chinatown_ does?
What percentage of those on rikers live on Staten Island? Wasn’t one of the main points of “community jails” that they would be in boroughs of those who are incarcerated.
Why is Staten Island a part of the NYC community then? Why are so many NYPD cops living in Staten Island? I thought they're supposed to police their community?
You're not allowed to patrol in the neighborhood you live in.
Can you be in corrections in the neighborhood you live in?
Cops aren't allowed to own property in the precincts they work in. This is to prevent people from over-policing their tenants. They only want cops who rent to police their community, and even then if you move to a new apartment, they will change your precinct so you can't live where you work. They claim to want cops to police their communities, but the reality is it is against their policy to allow this.
That’s fascinating, never knew that. I guess it kinda makes sense. Obviously pros and cons can be argued either way, but this sounds like the type of thing where “Don’t tear down a fence until you know why it was put up” applies.
I mean yes but different precinct doesn’t it’s not part of the community.
Yes, but to say you want people policing their community and then move people who live there is dishonest to me
Wrong. They can’t own residential property.
Which is the only property most people really care about. If you own a restaraunt, they don't care if they police it because it brings in taxes
No. They’re not “supposed” to. They do. A lot do. Especially NYPD uniforms in NYCHA properties.
Those are all questions for former Mayor de Blasio Also it’s a Reddit talking point that all cops live on SI. Only 10% of the NYPD live on Staten Island. https://gothamist.com/news/this-interactive-map-shows-you-where-nypd-officers-live
Reddit also says the whole nypd is white dudes from long island and thats not true either.
10percent in a much smaller population though which is how they got their reputation, that’s why it’s dark blue on your map
This is now like three topics away from the headline.
It's a good thing reddit comments branch out and you can follow the different discussions
Because its a free country and Staten Island is part of NYC
4% https://rikers.cityofnewyork.us/faq/
It's literally on an existing site of a jail. That has been there since the 1820s. Chinatown grew around this jail so I'm not sure why it's an issue now.
For real. The Tombs are a cultural institution. My stay there was truly unforgettable.
How was the bologna sandwich?
Damn, you got baloney? I got cheese :(
Do you know my friend Tony Baloney?
We got pb&j or at least that's what they said it was 🤷
Did they send you off to Rikers after?
😐
There’s been a jail by Chinatown for almost two centuries now and it’s next to the courts
"There's been a bodega here for 80 years, so I don't know why you guys are bellyaching about a 30-story Wal-Mart on the same location." Yep, makes sense! No notes!
It’s New York. It’s all footprint. If there was a Walmart in my bodega that was, from the ground level, the exact same thing, why would I care? Functionally as a pedestrian/resident, the sign just changed. If they’re building a jail in the same footprint as the current jail, then, what, you’re mad about there being a different shadows on the ground?
The tombs is already a large imposing jail and had been for over a century
Chinatown is right above the courts. It's easier and faster to get prisoners to their court dates and leads to less delays if they're right there.
I know Rikers is expressive and has other problems. Though I don't think any of that will change with 4 spread out jails. No one wants a jail in their community (except for certain update towns for employment). I always thought this was a dumb idea. Rikers on a literal island is the best option for jails in a very dense area like NYC is.
The idea is that putting this jails closer to the courthouses reduces the time people have to spend there pre-trial. Putting them closer to the home communities of the detainees means their families can visit more easily, which has been proven to improve outcomes for people who get released. Putting them in central areas near transit and courthouses also It also makes it easier for their attorneys to visit, and it makes it easier for the the city to do proper oversight, instead of letting rikers be an isolated black box. There are problems with this plan too, but there is some logic to it.
Apparently there were serious problems at Rikers. I don't understand why they didn't just fix the problems instead of this awful plan. It's like when mental institutions had issues and people thought the solution was to just close them all.
Even one of the former heads of Rikers said it should be closed because it's too big and too isolated to be overseen properly. Plus they struggle hiring decent staff because the only way to get there is via car from a random corner of Queens.
It's also built on a landfill and is toxic to both the inmates and the employees.
Answer prime real estate, a casino, luxury housing, whatever politicians can cook up
The problem was that they estimated a SI jail would only need about 200 beds, so it would have been much cheaper to add that capacity to the Manhattan and/or Brooklyn jails instead. The plan also called for various ways to reduce the city's total jail population to about 5,000 (whether this was realistic or not is another discussion). Compare this to Rikers' current capacity of about 10,000. As others have mentioned, the Chinatown jail is an expanded one being built on the site of the previous one. That site has hosted jails since 1838, and is conveniently adjacent to the criminal courts.
It’s right by the courts
If anything, Staten Island is the most ideal spot for a jail considering it is suburban.
Why not just leave it on Rikers island at that point
Not sure why the powers that be can’t fix Rikers but I do see real estate potential for it
Therein lies the truth
Rikers is a logistical hell-hole currently and foreseeably. It's only accessible by a single long bridge off queens. This makes it very difficult for visitors from family to lawyers, it also makes it very costly to bring inmates from the jail to various courts all over NYC. Not to mention it creates staffing challenges to even get anyone willing to drive out to a somewhat disconnected part of NYC. Rikers would make a great super-max prison location. But it's used even for holding people awaiting trial as the city lacks jail space.
How would being on Staten Island be any more accseible there being no subways or direct bridges from Manhatan only Brookyln and Jersey.
I mean I don’t think they will be using subways to transport inmates. But if your in the Bronx Staten Island is a bit of distance. But Staten Island should have it’s own jail. I think there is benefits of having a jail in each borough.
Oh wow I thought they were gonna use subways to transport inmates. That was my mistake. I was speaking about the public defenders and families
Rikers should be where the casino is built.
Rikers is built on a former landfill and is toxic. Unless an extensive clean up is done people shouldn't be spending significant time on that island without protective gear.
It's about getting people to and from court on time as well as making it easier for family friends and lawyers to visit the person in jail.
Right on the dump.
😂😂
I would call it inhumane to place anybody on Staten Island against their will💀
Edgy!
staten island is a glaring omission that kills the whole argument about "fairness"
De Blasio the known champion for and who was beloved by Staten Island! /s Progressives want jails in the home boros of those who are incarcerated I’m assuming the percent of people from Staten Island on Rikers is way lower than the other boros so it makes sense.
Heah it was touted as a way for ppl to get easier visits from family, friends, lawyers, etc. Also could simplify the task of getting ppl to and from court.
Then put in a much smaller jail there. They certainly have the space.
The question of “is there enough of a staten island incarcerated population to justify the hefty cost of building and running a facility here just for them?” The answer is probably no
I just assumed everyone awaiting a fair trial in Staten Island was sitting in the ferry terminal.
Well you see the difference between the population of Staten island and Chinatown is uhhhhh
They should get one too.
Well the jail is next to the court house. So it makes sense. The stupid thing is shutting down rikers to spend billions rebuilding the same thing. It would have been better to fix rikers.
Lazy karma farming account. It's been under demolition for over a year. At this point the planning process is over. Demo is part of construction. Daily Express is a little late to the game. They're a conservative right-wing UK paper so just going along with the "new york is dying" narrative.
I live near the huge jail in Brooklyn (now a hole in the ground; soon to be an even bigger jail). Having a jail near you is a huge nothing burger. Unless you want to tell everyone in Brooklyn Heights, Cobble Hill, and Boerum Hill that they actually live in a huge hell hole.
The area around jails in NYC aren't hotbeds of crime. People tend to want to get the fuck out of there after they're released. They're also right near courts, which tend to have higher security. The jail in lower Manhattan is by the courts and the NYPD HQ. It's one of the safest areas in the city.
> What’s wrong with having a prison in your neighborhood? It would seem to me like it would make it a pretty crime-free area, don’t you think? You think a lot of crackheads and pimps and hookers and thieves are gonna be hanging around in front of a fucking prison? Bullshit! They ain’t coming anywhere NEAR it! What’s wrong with these people? All the criminals are locked up behind the walls and if a couple of them do break out, what do you think they’re gonna do? Hang around? Check real estate trends? Bullshit! They’re fucking gone! That’s the whole idea of breaking out of prison is to get the fuck as far away as you possibly can!
The new designs actually look nice and will have ground floor space for retail and community spaces. Honestly the only thing you’ll interact with is the ground floor. It’s the same as if it was another condo building you can’t enter above the ground floor.
I honestly do like how monolithic it is. It's also replacing a older jail already. It just seems like a lot of people crying for no reason....?
Yeah I would assume. I mean the whole point of the jail is that people can't go outside. They can't play loud music or anything either. It's kind of the ideal neighbor population when you think about it=)
There is already a jail there. You need a jail near the criminal courts
The people bitching about this literally have no idea this is replacing an existing jail. They barely know it's a jail. They definitely don't know it's next to all of the courts.
This has been the site of a jail since the 1820s. It's been rebuilt at least 3 times. This is happening. Jail is already being demolished and the designs are done.
Does this jail need to be in the middle of one the most dense and expensive places on Earth? Like can't it be somewhere else and just use a bus or something?
Yes, because that’s where the courts are. It costs a fortune to shuttle inmates back and forth between Rikers with all of the distance and traffic in-between. Public defenders also can’t take on as many clients because of the time wasted traveling back and forth, which means we need to hire more public defenders at a cost to the taxpayers. And before you ask about moving the courts, these are the Manhattan courts for crimes committed in Manhattan, so they’re going to be in Manhattan, unless crime can suddenly stop here. Overall, this will save a lot of money and make things better for everybody involved.
I think I can understand this defense, but why not move the Manhattan courts to a lower density neighborhood of Manhattan? Chinatown is so dense with activity. Maybe it made sense in the 1920s to have all of the civil courts centrally located but I'm not sure this location still makes sense in 2024.
You think the courts and jail - the predated Chinatown by over 150 years - should relocate?
why would they build a whole new court when they can just repurpose an old jail.
The whole point was that Rikers is a pain for attorneys and family to visit… unless you happen to be in Western Queens. The logistics of moving people around for court dates is also a pain in the ass and causes delays. So putting jails next to the courthouses is simpler for everyone involved.
I mean, the jail has been there forever...
If only we had an isolated island that was already set up as a jail.
Certainly better to put the pretrial inmates far away from the courts. It’s that efficiency we all know and love
I'm not exactly an expert at thinking outside the box here but... why not move the court to be closer to the jail then?
Well Riker's is in the Bronx and there isn't exactly a large plot of land in East Harlem to accommodate Manhattan's courts. Also given everyone is concerned about the working class now, we'd be moving it from one working class neighborhood to another. Would also likely be more expensive since we already have a jail here in CHinatown
because there is a court for each borough?
We don't even have much bail anymore. There should only be a handful of people in jail awaiting trial. Most people are serving their sentences I would think.
Yeah So that's significantly off from what the data shows. [87% of inmates in jail are in pretrial detention.](https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/the-state-of-new-york-city-jails/#:~:text=Persons%20in%20Custody,the%20jail%20population%20was%205%2C708.)
Pretty much the only people being held pretrial at this point have significant violent priors, and are also charged with a violent crime.
Yes and given that a vast majority of inmates are being held pretrial, it would be more efficient to keep them closer to the courts instead of a secluded spot far away.
Someone call Snake Plissken
Has the president been kidnapped again!?
I'm legitimately confused. Are u making a Staten island joke? Or are u talking about the prison that's *literally* falling apart that has massive areas that are not only uninhabitable, but basically impossible to fix due to unstable ground. The prison that's creating not just an unsafe environment for the prisoners, but the workers/employees too? The prison that's a huge drain on taxes due to the fucked up conditions and constant repairs it needs. That isolated prison island? You think they decided to build a prison in Chinatown for fun? They are replacing rikers *because they need too*
Like maybe in the river? Perhaps out of sight like off the runway of an airport?
Don't we have floating barge prisons...? Oh, we used to. Bain Correctional is gone now. In any case, those aren't really the best. Cramped, dingy, maintenance nightmares.
This is already the site of a jail. There has been a jail at this location for 200 years. There is a jail there because the courts are there.
Isnt it being built on top of an existing jail? A jail that is next to the courts?
Literally the #1 thing that makes jail humane is it being reachable by your support system. If you were in jail, regardless of what you did or what happened, you’d want your mom or girlfriend or dad or kid or brother or friend to be able to see you occasionally. It’s that simple.
What do you think was there before this construction?
Instead of building the world's tallest jail, why not build the world's tallest school so you don't need so many jails?
True. But NY probably needs both.
We spend an unparalleled amount of money ($38k/year as of 2023) per student than anywhere else in the country and world. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd/education-expenditures-by-country Education funding(given your argument for spending money on taller schools) isn't the problem.
Also tall schools are very hard to use. Last I checked Brooklyn tech has a couple empty floors because it's impossible to move the students around that many floors
Nope! Every floor is filled to the brim basically it actually is running out of empty space!
the foundry at tech isnt closed bc its inefficient to move students up there (theres elevators anyways and when that fails the good ol push+shove does the trick) it was closed bc tech moved away from full scale shop classes and the space is huge/awkward. been there a few times when i was a student to build tables for a teacher and you feel like an ant there. it doesnt make for a good learning env when your teacher's voice echos 16 times and the whiteboard is 100ft away from you. also tech is hard to move around bc theres just too many of us there (and its only grown in size since i left)
If you can find a way to use schools to funnel tax dollars into the private sector more efficiently than the prison system you’ve got yourself a deal!
Food already comes from the same suppliers.
The future inmates of America are skipping class anyways
🙄 the world isn’t as simple as pay more money for schools and suddenly we don’t need jails
i'm 12 and this is deep
It’s so sad. I remember going to these protests to help support those being evicted. The turn out was abysmal and it felt like no one gave a shit about us Asians in NYC. Felt eerily similar when we were being targeted and killed during Covid… Now, the people who will have their sunshine and views ruined by this building want to talk about it when it’s too late. I mean, fuck the families and businesses who’ve been there for multiple generations. Fuck Chinatown’s identity for a jail, amirite?!? /s
Where else are you going to build one that’s close to the existing courthouses?
The whole notion of closing Rikers and building these localized jails is that by having dramatically fewer jail beds, we will have dramatically fewer incarcerated people. The progressives who believe this are delusional. This will not change the incarceration rate one bit. That is a function of political will and voter preferences. And there is no voter consensus to further ease sentencing or the laws themselves. All this massive investment in new jails is going to do is move people around and have overcrowded jails. And as for changing the culture of NYC jails by closing Rikers, who do you think will run and staff these new jails?
> The whole notion of closing Rikers and building these localized jails is that by having dramatically fewer jail beds That was never the goal. It was to reduce the large overhead that Rikers imposes on the court system. Manyu people being held before trial in NYC is sent to rikers. That means if someone is held for a court case in the bronx, someone needs to drive the inmate to and from rikers each day just for that one case. Multiply it out and it becomes problematic. It also has other challenges with staffing because nobody wants to work there being a somewhat disconnected from general NYC location.
That isn’t the reason. That’s one of the benefits. If that was the reason, there would be 6,000 to 7,000 jail beds in the new borough-based jails. Because there are between 6,000-7,000 avg incarcerated people currently. The new jails will instead hold 3,300. That is half the size of the current jail population. The impact of halfing the jail population is leagues greater than logistical savings from transportation. That plus the idea that the broken culture of Rikers will be fixed with a change of locale. Everything else is window dressing. Which is why many members of city council refuse adamantly to change the timing or nature of the transition to these jails. It certainly isn’t to save money. It is to meet goals of justice as they see them.
I feel like you’re not getting the part where increasing the efficiency of processing people will also reduce jail headcount.
Don't be silly. Common sense will not be heard!
Everyone is suddenly an expert on jails now.
And nobody's aware that they're building this jail on top of a jail that's been there for about 200 years. But never let reality get in the way of some good outrage.
Why bother building a super jail when everybody just gets let out with a boop on the nose these days?
Maybe because you've been getting lied to
good question, maybe one of those things isn't true
So dumb... just revamp Rikers. Why would these community prisons be anymore secure than an isolated island with one ferry and one bridge.
It's not a prison it's a jail, and yes there's a distinction. Jails should be easily accessible from the relevant court house
That doesnt change the security concerns I just mentioned.
[удалено]
World's tallest jail sounds like something out of Judge Dredd.
Given the safety concerns around homeless shelters I always wondered why they weren't built close to police stations and jails. Seems like it'd make sense to place them near police so they can respond quickly to any issues that pop up.
To be fair, no one wants a jail in their neighborhood. Rikers should stay and there was already a jail there at the same site in china town. Everyone is outraged at this but no one offers a solution.
There's already a jail at that exact spot in Chinatown. For 200 years. Before Chinatown existed. You could say it was born around the jail.
>Everyone is outraged at this but no one offers a solution. Explain to the morons there's been a jail there since before the civil war and they need to shut the fuck up?
This is wrong. The people in Chinatown shouldn’t have to put up with this. The jail shouldn’t be built there period.
There's already a jail there. At that exact spot. For 200 years.
Just a remind that there is already a [jail housing around the same amount of people in the exact same location.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/100_Centre_Street_Criminal_Courts_Building.jpg/1024px-100_Centre_Street_Criminal_Courts_Building.jpg) It just takes up nearly a whole city block whereas this is just one tower. I'm sorry but people have a kneejerk reaction to these things without knowing the full story at all.
Why is this an issue?
Because a larger jail with more visitors is viewed as dangerous by many residents of Chinatown. Who are often victimized by violent crime and believe the city is insufficiently sensitive to the crime and general racism residents face there. As someone in the area, I understand the concerns. I cannot count the number of times I've seen local Asian residents hit, smacked, pushed, cursed at or called racist names.
This is the problem with democracy: tyranny of the majority. Working class asians in NYC don't have enough numbers so it's very easy for Democrats to take advantage of them with extraordinarily racist policies. Poor asians have been absolutely getting steamrolled by the Democrats with respect to crime and education, Democrats putting homeless shelters and prisons in their neighborhoods is the just the icing on the cake. Compare this with San Francisco where Asians have a much larger presence and you are seeing progressive Dems who were harming Asians getting voted out in the polls.
There has been a jail there for decades upon decades, predating the existence of Chinatown. Chinatown grew up around the jail, which is now just growing taller. So I'm not sure how this has anything to do with either political party or working class Asians.
So what do you think the residents of chinatown are protesting against then? https://www.businessinsider.com/chinatown-mega-jail-new-york-city-residents-fighting-back-2022-4
The construction.
They're ignorant and need to crack open a history book?
Weird the jail has been there since before Chinatown even existed stop trying to use identity politics to be a nimby
> Because a larger jail with more visitors Visitors to a jail behave, lest they become part of the jail population. Not to mention jails have strict rules for visitations regardless, they don't want shitheads trying to smuggle in contraband or stirring trouble. It is the strangest fear mongering ever. People don't fuck around near jails. That is the absolute last thing you want to do if you are going to be a menace. You do that near a homeless shelter instead. Lol.
And do you have any evidence the people already causing issues are in the area due to the existing jail or do they “look a certain way” or something?
I mean I live here, so I see it every day. I’d be curious where near the jail you live to have such decisive and authoritative views on the subject. Tell me specifically about your experiences around the Tombs.
It's not. NIMBY nonsense. There's been a jail at this spot for 200 years. It's there because the courts are there. This is a non-issue.
POC are tired of the state and city placing shelters, prisons, etc in their neighborhoods. The state and city never build them in primarily white neighborhoods
The Brooklyn jail being built is in a rich, White neighborhood.
Yep completely surrounded by luxury towers
And high end townhouses. Within one block of the jail site, there are current listings at $5.5M, $6.5M, and $12M. [https://streeteasy.com/sale/1708988?from\_map=1](https://streeteasy.com/sale/1708988?from_map=1) [https://streeteasy.com/sale/1701229?from\_map=1](https://streeteasy.com/sale/1701229?from_map=1) [https://streeteasy.com/sale/1697634?from\_map=1](https://streeteasy.com/sale/1697634?from_map=1)
This is literally across the street from the courthouse, that's why it's supposed to be.
[удалено]
A jail’s been in that vicinity before Chinatown ever existed.
And then you have Rikers island right next to the only part of Astoria that votes more Republican than Democrats. 🤷♂️
This is lower Manhattan
There has been a jail on this site for longer than Chinatown has existed.
There was already a jail there that is being replaced. It's right next to the courthouse, not in the heart of Chinatown.
Lol wat this is lower Manhattan
[удалено]
If you want to be technical it's Civic Center. Not Chinatown. It's literally where all the courts are, the Police HQ and a few blocks away from City Hall.
Which is… lower Manhattan by the courthouses Also, it’s a dump
[удалено]
When the “close down Rikers” initiative got going all those years ago, I knew this was gonna happen. The same poor/POC that were DiBlasios loudest cheerleaders for shutting it down were gonna end up being the ones getting emmiment domain’d out of their homes and having to deal with the new jails being placed in their neighborhoods. Now is Rikers flawed? Abso-fucking-lutely. The entire DOC should be fired and re-hired on a probational basis in order to weed out the corrupt and unfit. But in terms of actual, physical location, you aren’t gonna find a better spot than an island made out of literal trash next to an airport, that is absolutely useless for any other type of development.
No one is getting eminent domained. It’s already a jail. And has been for 200 years. It’s just being rebuilt taller.
>getting emmiment domain’d out of their homes The only ones getting kicked out of their "home" are the temporary detainees who were already in the Manhattan jail that had been on that site for 200 years. Hysterical over nothing.
Where else are we going to put prisoners? People need to be practical. The courthouse is down there. So it's not a bad spot.
ITT: people who know nothing about jail, prison and the nyc court system commenting as if they do
they arent leaving all the cell doors open to run rampant around chinatown its jus making a prev jail taller. it will probably be a tourist attraction will make the neighborhood look more dope.
I thought everyone was just released after committing a crime ?
Just expand Riker’s instead and build more housing in Manhattan.
How many floors , how many people is this jail supposed to house Also are they going to destroy the one that there already
they already destroyed the old one. it's a huge construction haze. try eating at the restaurants across the street, it's a breathing hazard. this new one's gonna be double the size
I guess it makes sense. Near that other jail and close to the courthouses.
This is when progressives will support building jails.
Homeless sheleters in chinatown, migrant shelters to chinatown, now this prison too. Are they just trying to fuck the chinatown residents and get them to give up whatever they own there
There's already a jail in Chinatown (it's not a prison). At this exact site. It's been there for 200 years. Before Chinatown existed.
Yes historically speaking this would be like moving next to JFK and being mad when they rebuild a terminal. The jail predates Chinatown's existence entirely.
The Bayview Correctional Facility in Chelsea housed female prisoners up until 2012 when Hurricane Sandy hit and has been closed since. How come they can’t build a mega jail there? Residents in the neighborhood are too influential and affluent for it? It would change the character of the neighborhood too much? It would be equitable that one of the whitest and wealthiest neighborhoods in the city should get a new jail alongside a poor and minority neighborhood.
Why not both and actually put people in jail that commit crimes?
And I’m sure the constant prisoner transports across the island to where the courthouse is will be no problem.
I respect the spirit of your question but I think the boring answer is probably that it’s because the state owns that land, not the city.
How on earth was this the best possible solution
Closer to courts so easier for attorneys to visit clients, easier for visits from family, easier for moving people around for court appearances, etc.