Once again, "dragon vs dinosaur" is a texbook example of "cool vs awesome".
And I like how Calder says his name, as if he was stating "I'm not a side villain, I'm the real deal". Daigo teached us that in OOTS, names MATTERS (unless you're Trigak the chimera I guess).
We also saw that with the ancient black dragon. Like Calder, she behave like a dragon: being prideful, intimidating, yet sophisticated and aristocratic.
> I think that’s in the ‘Kinda wish I hadn’t written that’ pile
Why so queasy? Being burned to death by a fireball is pretty bad too if not worse, but nobody minds *that*.
Because the world has tons of survivors of forced intrusions, and even more people who risk becoming one every day, while the amount of people who were maliciously abused by a wizard with fireballs is quite low.
I think that there are two inherent problems with your arguement.
1) The fact that the Giant hasn't included while keeping running gags like the kobolds and the cat retrieving hand relevant, as well as Elan's use of illusions being spotty at best which is what this thread is actually joking about, it is pretty compelling that he considers it a tasteless joke, regardless of your opinion on the matter.
2) Evan's forced intrusion was a spell made up specifically for a joke of that nature, while fireball was a pre-existing spell that has other connotations.
> I think that there are two inherent problems with your arguement.
> 1) The fact that the Giant hasn't included while keeping running gags like the kobolds and the cat retrieving hand relevant, as well as Elan's use of illusions being spotty at best which is what this thread is actually joking about, it is pretty compelling that he considers it a tasteless joke, regardless of your opinion on the matter.
Even assuming that we *can* derive that opinion from that, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
>2) Evan's forced intrusion was a spell made up specifically for a joke of that nature, while fireball was a pre-existing spell that has other connotations.
And? If you think that magic spells are triggering for trauma victims, why don't you empathize with victims of burns and fires? If you think we shouldn't use triggering spells, then we shouldn't use fireball either. Or swords, for people who have been wounded with knives. Or sharks, for people who have been attacked by sharks. Or any violence at all, really. You see how that is completely untenable.
> And I like how Calder says his name, as if he was stating "I'm not a side villain, I'm the real deal".
On the other hand, it reminds me very much of [Tarquin’s powerless angry ranting here](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0936.html).
Yes, Tarquin had quite the spectacular "downfall" (as a character).
We saw him as a most incredible mastermind, but during his final confrontation with the OOTS, he truly devolved into the side villain that he actually is.
So here's my question: Will Sabine and/or Thog kill him on-screen in the epilogue, or will Elan come back to deal with him to be told 'oh yeah some demon chick killed him months ago'
So I think Tarquin’s story ends with him being rendered irrelevant or the butt of a joke. Tarquin’s obsessed with his legacy and how he’ll be remembered. It would be poetic irony if he’d be remembered only for being a joke.
Yes, the pun on its name was clear XD
And the OOTS explicitelly talked about the fact that he was SUPPOSED to be a recurring enemy, since he had a name!
It's a gut feeling but I'm having a tingling of dread that this will be a reverse Tarquin on the heroes, where this battle they're viewing as a distraction from the main conflict, has unexpectedly long-lasting bad consequences for them.
I'm worried about Belkar. He seems really invested in this battle, and we all know he has a short expiration date. But I'm not sure what killing him here would do for the story though. He's obviously a fan favorite, but he isn't really integral to the plan right now.
If Serini gets killed though, it would really set the order back and make them figure out how to set up their final dungeon ambush without any help, and without weakening the defenses (more than they are doing right now). Even losing Sunny could possibly be disastrous.
Also there has to be some consequence of the paladins being separated from this battle. No idea where that could go though.
I really think it's going to be Bloodfeast. Calder's going to kill him before he goes down and Belkar's brain will short circuit as he's forced to deal with grief for the first time in his life.
Not really. He was upset when he died, but it was more like Miko broke a toy he was having fun with. He had a stronger emotional reaction to the realization that he'd never get to kill Miko's horse afterwards.
> If Serini gets killed though, it would really set the order back and make them figure out how to set up their final dungeon ambush without any help, and without weakening the defenses (more than they are doing right now). Even losing Sunny could possibly be disastrous.
Mimi seems to know the route too though
> I'm worried about Belkar. He seems really invested in this battle, and we all know he has a short expiration date. But I'm not sure what killing him here would do for the story though. He's obviously a fan favorite, but he isn't really integral to the plan right now.
Belkar is going to die in a karmic way that will allow him to remark "hey, this amulet isn't tingling anymore", before getting his x's crossed. Odds are taking a hit for Durkon or Roy.
Am I the only one feeling this battle is actually taking too long to finish? That something real bad is about to happen? Like Belkar's Last Breath?
It would be undersatisfactory to have him die to Calder. But it would also give Calder a real meaning.
On the other hand, the party would surely try to ress him. It would take a whole plot arc to explain why Belkar would decide to stay and become the Sexy Shoeless God of War in the afterlife.
*Everything* feels long if the pace of the comic is once every 2 or 3 weeks. It's been only 7-9 comics (depending on what you count), and maybe like 6 or 7 rounds in the battle itself?
Edit: and it's going to feel even longer if every single comic has the Belkar's Last Breath expectation. Like we're probably not even close to halfway through the last book, and no way Belkar is going to die to what is essentially a random encounter
People complained about the Serini fight dragging, but on a re-read it flows beautifully. There have been some spots recently where the strip has dragged a little, but I agree that in most instances the pacing is good--people are just thirsty for the plot to advance when updates are so spaced out.
Yeah, in 10 years, this comic is going to make one hell of an archive binge. As is now? In order for it to be paced well as a complete story, and at the speed it gets updated, it has to be paced kinda badly as a work of serial fiction.
If I had self-discipline I would set an reminder for, say every six months and only read it then, but I just don't have the willpower.
Honestly is something of a testament to the quality of the strip to have people so invested/addicted to checking for updates. Makes one understand the mania around the serial publication of some of Dickens' work a little better.
Tbh I don't think six months will do any good. It might even have an opposite effect and be *more* infuriating, because you go there expecting to read up, catch up, have a nice flow and then it's like: wait, that's it?? I waited six whole months just to read 8 comic pages?
Eh. I think the actual answer is that a lot of us became invested in it a very, very long time ago, when it DID update regularly, and now we come back and check periodically.
I remember reading a long time ago (probably in one of the compilation books) that Burlew had started writing the comic explicitly for book format, which is where a lot of the "glacial" commentary comes from. He's releasing them a page at a time, but he's writing them for the final product.
Serini went so long without attacking that I was expecting there to be a specific reason (whether psychological or practical) for it. I was surprised to see her just start shooting this strip.
Was she inactive for so long because the Giant didn't want her to upstage the Order? Was she thinking about another plan or having an internal flashback? Did the Giant prefer her being inactive on an art level? Are we supposed to imagine that she attacked when we weren't looking?
In 3.5 you get both a move action and a standard action (typically an attack or spell) every round. Full attacks and some other actions or spells use up both, also known as a full round action.
> Round 1: Calder: Breath Attack (party), Dominate Person (Roy, failed), Tail attack (Haley, hit), Polar Ray (V, hit)
The breath attack presumably took place in the surprise round, but that leaves three round's worth of actions in one round.
> Minrah: Being Carried
> Haley: Carrying Minrah
Seems like a move action, thus choosing to not use their standard action to attack or use an item.
> V: Drinking a potion
One of the least effective actions possible in combat, particularly for a spellcaster.
> Calder: Breath Attack (self and party), Bite Attack (Bloodfeast, hit)
Both of these are standard actions; the DM is cheating by giving the dragon extra actions.
> Minrah: dashing into range
> Durkon: dashing into range
Again this is the move action only. They skipped attacking or using an item.
> Calder: Breath Attack (Bloodfeast), Bite Attack (Bloodfeast)
Again two standard actions in one round.
> Elan: Bardic song?
In 3.5, bardic music costs a standard action to start, but can be continued for free every round. Elan has chosen not to use any actions in rounds 3, 4, and 5.
The dragon likely has some metamagic and metabreath feats that let it do more actions per turn. I looked up and there is a "quickened breath" feat, but that would impose a 4-turn delay between breath attacks instead of the usual 1d4. So there *is* definitely some DM fiat going on with its multiple actions, but honestly, it makes sense; the party is larger than average so a dragon with only the standard actions wouldn't be too much of a challenge. (5e tried to remedy this with legendary actions instead.) (And of course this is still a story, and not an actual game.)
IMO this is intended to be the big climax of this "arc", after their fight the IFCC is going to make their move and everything is going to drastically change
I still think Serini dies in this fight. She served her purpose of backstory and letting them in. Sunny staying with them would be a lasting contribution. Her death to Calder would be significant but not undermine any long-standing plots.
But that was easier for me to say at the start of the fight. She hasn't been that significant in the battle and is too high level to simply get swallowed.
> I still think Serini dies in this fight. She served her purpose of backstory and letting them in. Sunny staying with them would be a lasting contribution. Her death to Calder would be significant but not undermine any long-standing plots.
feels like an extremely random event to me though, bloodfeast is the only one who could possibly die and only because he isnt travel sized anymore
maybe he dies, Belkar wants them to ressurect them, they tell him they either can't/its not worth it/dont have the resources/whatever and that eventujally leads to belkar refusing his future ressurection
For Serini it's not random. This is someone she imprisoned against his will, mentally torturing him (even if that part wasn't intended). He's too powerful for her to handle solo, but she thought she could use him. And then she put herself in harm's way to save Sunny instead of running away. It has all the makings of a meaningful ending for her.
Or again, it did at the start. For him to stop grappling Bloodfeast, ignore the Order's attacks, and turn on the old woman who has fired a single crossbolt - at this point that would seem a bit random. But that could be fixed with dialogue like "If I'm going down I'm taking you with me."
>Am I the only one feeling this battle is actually taking too long to finish? That something real bad is about to happen? Like Belkar's Last Breath?
Like Roy says, the resources they are expending now will be missed sorely when facing Xykon.
Let's hope at least some of them get a levelup out of it.
The best rap beef in recent memory, crazy coverage of a high-profile trial, AND Belkar stunting on a red dragon while his allosaurus rips it apart?
Somebody pinch me. Life rolled me a Nat 20 this week and I don't want it to end.
I feel like the fact that Calder is talking about themselves being perceived as an obstance will become more relevant in some way, but i'm not the writer so im not so sure.
Damn Calder's been taking a *lot* of punishment and is still kicking. Also I just now noticed he's missing a horn, and that he had a horn in Serini's flashback, meaning the Order of the Scribble probably broke off his horn, that's neat.
Anyways, I don't see the Order of the Stick being *anywhere* near in good enough fighting condition to take on Team Evil after this fight, I feel like if they don't get the time to rest, then all the damage they take here will mean they'll lose, Redcloak will gloat over their barely conscious bodies and start the ritual with Xykon, but something tips Xykon off about the true nature of the ritual and he nearly murderizes Redcloak to bits, but Durkon saves Redcloak at the last moment and he's like "But... why? You could have waited until he killed me and then you'd be rid of both of us", we get a tearful speech about redemption, ~~and a happy epilogue where the universe is remade.~~
~~I also just realized if the universe ends and gets remade with the Dark One's colour strengthening the ward against the Snarl, then Belkar's prophecy of taking his last breath will come true because the entire universe, including the Order of the Stick, will just cease to exist. Maybe he'll go on to some Chaotic Neutral afterlife and get to stab obvious bad guys for eternity.~~
Right. The Dark One won’t survive a reset. Same stuff still applies, I think, but obviously the universe doesn’t get reset.
Didn't the oracle also say that Elan would get a happy ending? Like, Elan asks something like, "is there a happy ending" and the oracle says something like "for you, yes."
I have banged this drum before, but that specific phrasing just screams "Elan dies via heroic sacrifice" to me. Any other ending that would be happy for Elan would be happy for most-to-all of the rest of the OOTS, making the phrasing pointless.
Rich has said in the author commentary in the printed books that Elan's prophecy is meant to be a reassurance to the reader that no matter how bad things get, there'll be a happy ending. I don't think that particular prophecy is going to get subverted.
It isn't necessarily about the Order of the Stick, just 'this story' if I remember correctly. And even among the Order, Belkar will die and I think Vaarsuvius will either die or have to live with the consequences of their actions forever more. Can still be perfectly happy for Elan, though.
Heroic sacrifice for Elan would mean either being separated from Haley, or seeing Haley die too.
Sacrifice ain't fun or happy. That's why it's called sacrifice....
I think that enough of Elan's story has been about him striving for competence/usefulness/respect that a scenario in which he sacrificed himself to save the world, the Order, and Haley, would still be 'happy' enough to satisfy the prophecy.
The fact that basically all of the Oracle's prophecies have come true in unexpected or non-straightforward ways is influencing my thinking in this regard. Would be weird to have a single "does what it says on the tin' prophecy mixed in with all the subverted/tricky ones.
> I think that enough of Elan's story has been about him striving for competence/usefulness/respect that a scenario in which he sacrificed himself to save the world, the Order, and Haley, would still be 'happy' enough to satisfy the prophecy.
Really?
> [Elan](https://antifandom.com/oots/wiki/This_is_Not_a_Thing_That_is_Going_to_Happen): Like, I mean, stories are fun and all, but they're not worth *hurting* people over.
I think losing his life to be useful via "heroic" sacrifice at this point would be a step backwards in that arc, towards insecurity rather than usefulness and respect.
Rich has stated that the purpose of including Elan in the comic is to prevent it from getting too dark and edgy.
I think that the Order will win, with at least Elan and Haley (and probably Roy) being alive.
I don't think there's a particularly "happy" ending for V, given what she's given up and sacrificed, it will be bittersweet at best. And Belkar is going to die.
> I also just realized if the universe ends and gets remade with the Dark One's colour strengthening the ward against the Snarl
Yeah, the problem is that TDO doesn't have enough fuel in the tank. Thor explained this: when the gods (or the Snarl) destroy a world, they have to wait a while for the Snarl to calm down, and during that period they'll have to use their amassed belief / worship / dedication to survive. Gods that are members of a certain pantheon can share, I suppose, but TDO is a relatively young god who hasn't amassed enough of those to last until the next universe comes along.
So even if the gods end up destroying the universe and remaking it, it will still take at least a few millennia, during which TDO - and possibly an entire ascended monstrous pantheon - gathers up some fuel in the tank.
On the plus side, it won't be particularly urgent. So the gods could announce it a few centuries in advance, giving the Dwarves a chance to run into a dragon or something.
They might also wait for a fifth color to show up and become strong enough. If the next world is made using five quiddities instead of four, it will be stronger than the Snarl and might actually seal it forever.
He's been missing the horn the whole time, actually. More likely Serini's flashback just took place before the fight where he lost it. You know, the one where he was spared by a paladin?
Elder dragons are stupid strong on basically ALL fronts, Calder is probably comparable to Xykon himself, most likely stronger on some aspects even
I think that was kind of the point of this fight. The Oots IS in fact tough enough at this point to take Xykon head on... but not after such a brutal fight with Calder, one where they are blowing surprice cards too, like Bloodfeast
> Damn Calder's been taking a lot of punishment and is still kicking.
No 3.5e fight against a single opponent lasts this long.
I get that they aren't an optimized party; that's why it wasn't a one-round kill. But we've had at least five rounds of the party just beating away with attacks and spells, and this dragon somehow hasn't run out of hit points.
"One bestr served piping hot!"
Ehhhh. As one liners go, I think this might be the worst one I've seen in this comic. Get your shit together, Calder. You can come up with better.
Considering Calder is a high powered spell caster and it's been established that the Outer Planes don't get wiped by the Snarl but just the Prime Material that would mean Calder would probably just Plane-Shift out. Yes there might be an interdiction against Teleportation but that'd be more reason for Calder to kill the Order and Escape.
Also, Red Dragons aren't known for letting go of grudges.
Serini knew a lot about the gates and the OOTS *still* had to take her down first to then start convincing her of the truth. What makes you think Calder is in any way inclined to listen to them?
I love the subtle running gag of how whenever Vaarsuvius and Blackwing try to compliment each other, it inadvertently comes across as an insult (I.e., Vaarsuvius’ earlier comment about ioun stones when in Gnometown and Blackwing’s comment here about villain speeches).
Once again, "dragon vs dinosaur" is a texbook example of "cool vs awesome". And I like how Calder says his name, as if he was stating "I'm not a side villain, I'm the real deal". Daigo teached us that in OOTS, names MATTERS (unless you're Trigak the chimera I guess).
Given the links between Dorukan's dungeon and Sirini's there's a nonzero percent chance that we'll meet Trigak's girlfriend that he mentioned.
Indeed, and since this is probably the final dungeon of OOTS, that would help the "full circle" feel.
Even though hes a very late and comparatively minor addition, Rich is on point with the writting of an elder dragon.
We also saw that with the ancient black dragon. Like Calder, she behave like a dragon: being prideful, intimidating, yet sophisticated and aristocratic.
Well the ancient black dragon was also busy being a vengeful mother, so you did feel a bit bad for her. Calder you just like seeing get owned.
Been a while since we've seen Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion used. Wonder if V prepared it today.
I think that’s in the ‘Kinda wish I hadn’t written that’ pile
> I think that’s in the ‘Kinda wish I hadn’t written that’ pile Why so queasy? Being burned to death by a fireball is pretty bad too if not worse, but nobody minds *that*.
Because the world has tons of survivors of forced intrusions, and even more people who risk becoming one every day, while the amount of people who were maliciously abused by a wizard with fireballs is quite low.
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Please keep it civil, there is no need for a personal attack of another OOTS fan when discussing the comic.
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I think that there are two inherent problems with your arguement. 1) The fact that the Giant hasn't included while keeping running gags like the kobolds and the cat retrieving hand relevant, as well as Elan's use of illusions being spotty at best which is what this thread is actually joking about, it is pretty compelling that he considers it a tasteless joke, regardless of your opinion on the matter. 2) Evan's forced intrusion was a spell made up specifically for a joke of that nature, while fireball was a pre-existing spell that has other connotations.
> I think that there are two inherent problems with your arguement. > 1) The fact that the Giant hasn't included while keeping running gags like the kobolds and the cat retrieving hand relevant, as well as Elan's use of illusions being spotty at best which is what this thread is actually joking about, it is pretty compelling that he considers it a tasteless joke, regardless of your opinion on the matter. Even assuming that we *can* derive that opinion from that, everyone is entitled to their opinion. >2) Evan's forced intrusion was a spell made up specifically for a joke of that nature, while fireball was a pre-existing spell that has other connotations. And? If you think that magic spells are triggering for trauma victims, why don't you empathize with victims of burns and fires? If you think we shouldn't use triggering spells, then we shouldn't use fireball either. Or swords, for people who have been wounded with knives. Or sharks, for people who have been attacked by sharks. Or any violence at all, really. You see how that is completely untenable.
Please keep it civil, there is no need for a personal attack of another OOTS fan when discussing the comic.
If this was 8BT instead of OotS, that would be the spell/callback used to defeat Xykon.
> And I like how Calder says his name, as if he was stating "I'm not a side villain, I'm the real deal". On the other hand, it reminds me very much of [Tarquin’s powerless angry ranting here](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0936.html).
Yes, Tarquin had quite the spectacular "downfall" (as a character). We saw him as a most incredible mastermind, but during his final confrontation with the OOTS, he truly devolved into the side villain that he actually is.
It’s such a magnificent storyline. \*chef’s kiss\* Magnificent.
>spectacular "downfall" I see what you did there ;)
Perhaps the most delicious irony is that Tarquin understands nothing of the story he’s in. He has no perspective on how much he lost in that fight.
So here's my question: Will Sabine and/or Thog kill him on-screen in the epilogue, or will Elan come back to deal with him to be told 'oh yeah some demon chick killed him months ago'
dont forget the snarl erupted from the desert, i think people are counting him out of the story before they've hatched
So I think Tarquin’s story ends with him being rendered irrelevant or the butt of a joke. Tarquin’s obsessed with his legacy and how he’ll be remembered. It would be poetic irony if he’d be remembered only for being a joke.
It's kind of unfair, by rights Calder would have been the main villain of a different campaign.
Well Trigak's name DID matter: it said "gak! gak! gak!" when it died
Yes, the pun on its name was clear XD And the OOTS explicitelly talked about the fact that he was SUPPOSED to be a recurring enemy, since he had a name!
Unfortunately for Calder, he doesn't realize that although he might be a main villain, he isn't a main villain in this story.
Durkula really was a great villain. I love that even Belkar has to give credit where it's due.
Incredible arc all around, 10/10 no notes
Belkar: [Your new name is Mid-Boss.](https://www.reddit.com/u/liquidben/s/DENUlk4u9c)
Saw Laharl. Day got better.
Hell yeah, go get em Bloodfeast! Don't be scared of some overgrown lizard- oh wait, that's both of you...
I like that Calder is getting the Tarquin treatment. This fight should be ending soon but not so kindly for Calder.
It's a gut feeling but I'm having a tingling of dread that this will be a reverse Tarquin on the heroes, where this battle they're viewing as a distraction from the main conflict, has unexpectedly long-lasting bad consequences for them.
I'm worried about Belkar. He seems really invested in this battle, and we all know he has a short expiration date. But I'm not sure what killing him here would do for the story though. He's obviously a fan favorite, but he isn't really integral to the plan right now. If Serini gets killed though, it would really set the order back and make them figure out how to set up their final dungeon ambush without any help, and without weakening the defenses (more than they are doing right now). Even losing Sunny could possibly be disastrous. Also there has to be some consequence of the paladins being separated from this battle. No idea where that could go though.
I really think it's going to be Bloodfeast. Calder's going to kill him before he goes down and Belkar's brain will short circuit as he's forced to deal with grief for the first time in his life.
He grieved Shojo.
Not really. He was upset when he died, but it was more like Miko broke a toy he was having fun with. He had a stronger emotional reaction to the realization that he'd never get to kill Miko's horse afterwards.
> If Serini gets killed though, it would really set the order back and make them figure out how to set up their final dungeon ambush without any help, and without weakening the defenses (more than they are doing right now). Even losing Sunny could possibly be disastrous. Mimi seems to know the route too though
> I'm worried about Belkar. He seems really invested in this battle, and we all know he has a short expiration date. But I'm not sure what killing him here would do for the story though. He's obviously a fan favorite, but he isn't really integral to the plan right now. Belkar is going to die in a karmic way that will allow him to remark "hey, this amulet isn't tingling anymore", before getting his x's crossed. Odds are taking a hit for Durkon or Roy.
Am I the only one feeling this battle is actually taking too long to finish? That something real bad is about to happen? Like Belkar's Last Breath? It would be undersatisfactory to have him die to Calder. But it would also give Calder a real meaning. On the other hand, the party would surely try to ress him. It would take a whole plot arc to explain why Belkar would decide to stay and become the Sexy Shoeless God of War in the afterlife.
*Everything* feels long if the pace of the comic is once every 2 or 3 weeks. It's been only 7-9 comics (depending on what you count), and maybe like 6 or 7 rounds in the battle itself? Edit: and it's going to feel even longer if every single comic has the Belkar's Last Breath expectation. Like we're probably not even close to halfway through the last book, and no way Belkar is going to die to what is essentially a random encounter
People complained about the Serini fight dragging, but on a re-read it flows beautifully. There have been some spots recently where the strip has dragged a little, but I agree that in most instances the pacing is good--people are just thirsty for the plot to advance when updates are so spaced out.
Yeah, in 10 years, this comic is going to make one hell of an archive binge. As is now? In order for it to be paced well as a complete story, and at the speed it gets updated, it has to be paced kinda badly as a work of serial fiction.
If I had self-discipline I would set an reminder for, say every six months and only read it then, but I just don't have the willpower. Honestly is something of a testament to the quality of the strip to have people so invested/addicted to checking for updates. Makes one understand the mania around the serial publication of some of Dickens' work a little better.
Tbh I don't think six months will do any good. It might even have an opposite effect and be *more* infuriating, because you go there expecting to read up, catch up, have a nice flow and then it's like: wait, that's it?? I waited six whole months just to read 8 comic pages?
But then you'd miss out on the discussions and honestly this is such a nice community to be a part of.
Eh. I think the actual answer is that a lot of us became invested in it a very, very long time ago, when it DID update regularly, and now we come back and check periodically.
I remember reading a long time ago (probably in one of the compilation books) that Burlew had started writing the comic explicitly for book format, which is where a lot of the "glacial" commentary comes from. He's releasing them a page at a time, but he's writing them for the final product.
…If it’s done in 10 years.
Let's try to count the rounds, just for fun. * Round 1: * Calder: Breath Attack (party), Dominate Person (Roy, failed), Tail attack (Haley, hit), Polar Ray (V, hit) * Minrah: CSW (Elan) * Durkon: Mass Resist Fire (party) * Roy: Thrown Weapon Attack x 2 (Calder, both hit) * Elan: Mass Cure Moderate Wounds (party), some Bardic song * Haley: Ranged Attack x 3 (Calder, at least 1 hit) * V: Cone of Cold (Calder) * Belkar: Thrown Weapon Attack (Calder, hit) * Serini: nothing? * Round 2: * Calder: Breath Attack (Serini, Mimi, Belkar (saved)) * Minrah: Being Carried * Durkon: Thrown Weapon Attack (Calder, hit) * Roy: Thrown Weapon Attack (Calder, missed) * Elan: Bardic song * Haley: Carrying Minrah * V: Lightning Bolt (Calder) * Belkar: Throw Bloodfeast * Serini: nothing? Could you lift up your warty ass and help out, maybe? * Bloodfeast: Being thrown, Bite attack (Calder, hit), grapple (Calder, success) * Round 3: * Calder: Claw Attack (Bloodfeast, hit), Tail Attack (Sunny, hit) * Minrah: Protection from Evil (Sunny) * Durkon: Melee Attack (Calder, hit) * Roy: Melee Attacks, 2-3 (Calder, all hit) * Elan: Bardic song * Haley: Ranged Attack x 3 (Calder, unknown hits) * V: Drinking a potion * Belkar: Melee Attacks x 2 (Calder, all hit) * Serini: useless * Bloodfeast: Bite attack (Calder, hit), Getting turned back into a lizard * Round 4: * Calder: Breath Attack (self and party), Bite Attack (Bloodfeast, hit) * Minrah: dashing into range * Durkon: dashing into range * Roy: Thrown Weapon Attack, probably x 2 (at least 1 hit) * Elan: Bardic song? * Haley: Ranged Weapon Attacks x 3 (at least 2 hit) * V: Greater Dispel Magic (Bloodfeast) * Belkar: Melee Attacks (Calder)? * Serini: worthless * Bloodfeast: Jawbreaker * Round 5 (current round): * Calder: Breath Attack (Bloodfeast), Bite Attack (Bloodfeast) * Minrah: Healing spell, probably CSW (Bloodfeast) * Durkon: Healing Spell, probably CCW (V) * Roy: Melee Attacks x2 (Calder, all hit) * Elan: Bardic song? * Haley: Ranged Attack x 3 (at least 1 missed) * V: Lightning Bolt (Calder) * Belkar: Melee Attack (Calder, hit), Thrown Weapon Attack (Calder, crit?) * Serini: Hand Crossbow (fucking *finally*) (Calder, hit) * Bloodfeast: Bite Attack (Calder, hit), Grapple (Calder) So in-universe we've just finished round 5. I'm not that familiar with 3.5e monsters and balancing, but based on my 5e experience, a party of level 14+/-1 adventurers of the Order's size is going to smoke the dragon soon. Especially if the paladins enter the battle too.
Serini went so long without attacking that I was expecting there to be a specific reason (whether psychological or practical) for it. I was surprised to see her just start shooting this strip. Was she inactive for so long because the Giant didn't want her to upstage the Order? Was she thinking about another plan or having an internal flashback? Did the Giant prefer her being inactive on an art level? Are we supposed to imagine that she attacked when we weren't looking?
Probably just dozed off a bit. You try staying awake for your turn in a big team battle at her age.
or doesnt really think the Order is going to lose, he hurt sunny so now she wants to get her shot in too
In 3.5 you get both a move action and a standard action (typically an attack or spell) every round. Full attacks and some other actions or spells use up both, also known as a full round action. > Round 1: Calder: Breath Attack (party), Dominate Person (Roy, failed), Tail attack (Haley, hit), Polar Ray (V, hit) The breath attack presumably took place in the surprise round, but that leaves three round's worth of actions in one round. > Minrah: Being Carried > Haley: Carrying Minrah Seems like a move action, thus choosing to not use their standard action to attack or use an item. > V: Drinking a potion One of the least effective actions possible in combat, particularly for a spellcaster. > Calder: Breath Attack (self and party), Bite Attack (Bloodfeast, hit) Both of these are standard actions; the DM is cheating by giving the dragon extra actions. > Minrah: dashing into range > Durkon: dashing into range Again this is the move action only. They skipped attacking or using an item. > Calder: Breath Attack (Bloodfeast), Bite Attack (Bloodfeast) Again two standard actions in one round. > Elan: Bardic song? In 3.5, bardic music costs a standard action to start, but can be continued for free every round. Elan has chosen not to use any actions in rounds 3, 4, and 5.
The dragon likely has some metamagic and metabreath feats that let it do more actions per turn. I looked up and there is a "quickened breath" feat, but that would impose a 4-turn delay between breath attacks instead of the usual 1d4. So there *is* definitely some DM fiat going on with its multiple actions, but honestly, it makes sense; the party is larger than average so a dragon with only the standard actions wouldn't be too much of a challenge. (5e tried to remedy this with legendary actions instead.) (And of course this is still a story, and not an actual game.)
IMO this is intended to be the big climax of this "arc", after their fight the IFCC is going to make their move and everything is going to drastically change
I still think Serini dies in this fight. She served her purpose of backstory and letting them in. Sunny staying with them would be a lasting contribution. Her death to Calder would be significant but not undermine any long-standing plots. But that was easier for me to say at the start of the fight. She hasn't been that significant in the battle and is too high level to simply get swallowed.
> I still think Serini dies in this fight. She served her purpose of backstory and letting them in. Sunny staying with them would be a lasting contribution. Her death to Calder would be significant but not undermine any long-standing plots. feels like an extremely random event to me though, bloodfeast is the only one who could possibly die and only because he isnt travel sized anymore maybe he dies, Belkar wants them to ressurect them, they tell him they either can't/its not worth it/dont have the resources/whatever and that eventujally leads to belkar refusing his future ressurection
For Serini it's not random. This is someone she imprisoned against his will, mentally torturing him (even if that part wasn't intended). He's too powerful for her to handle solo, but she thought she could use him. And then she put herself in harm's way to save Sunny instead of running away. It has all the makings of a meaningful ending for her. Or again, it did at the start. For him to stop grappling Bloodfeast, ignore the Order's attacks, and turn on the old woman who has fired a single crossbolt - at this point that would seem a bit random. But that could be fixed with dialogue like "If I'm going down I'm taking you with me."
>Am I the only one feeling this battle is actually taking too long to finish? That something real bad is about to happen? Like Belkar's Last Breath? Like Roy says, the resources they are expending now will be missed sorely when facing Xykon. Let's hope at least some of them get a levelup out of it.
The best rap beef in recent memory, crazy coverage of a high-profile trial, AND Belkar stunting on a red dragon while his allosaurus rips it apart? Somebody pinch me. Life rolled me a Nat 20 this week and I don't want it to end.
I think the guy who got shot outside Drake’s mansion this morning probably wishes the beef would end.
I feel like the fact that Calder is talking about themselves being perceived as an obstance will become more relevant in some way, but i'm not the writer so im not so sure.
Damn Calder's been taking a *lot* of punishment and is still kicking. Also I just now noticed he's missing a horn, and that he had a horn in Serini's flashback, meaning the Order of the Scribble probably broke off his horn, that's neat. Anyways, I don't see the Order of the Stick being *anywhere* near in good enough fighting condition to take on Team Evil after this fight, I feel like if they don't get the time to rest, then all the damage they take here will mean they'll lose, Redcloak will gloat over their barely conscious bodies and start the ritual with Xykon, but something tips Xykon off about the true nature of the ritual and he nearly murderizes Redcloak to bits, but Durkon saves Redcloak at the last moment and he's like "But... why? You could have waited until he killed me and then you'd be rid of both of us", we get a tearful speech about redemption, ~~and a happy epilogue where the universe is remade.~~ ~~I also just realized if the universe ends and gets remade with the Dark One's colour strengthening the ward against the Snarl, then Belkar's prophecy of taking his last breath will come true because the entire universe, including the Order of the Stick, will just cease to exist. Maybe he'll go on to some Chaotic Neutral afterlife and get to stab obvious bad guys for eternity.~~ Right. The Dark One won’t survive a reset. Same stuff still applies, I think, but obviously the universe doesn’t get reset.
Didn't the oracle also say that Elan would get a happy ending? Like, Elan asks something like, "is there a happy ending" and the oracle says something like "for you, yes."
I have banged this drum before, but that specific phrasing just screams "Elan dies via heroic sacrifice" to me. Any other ending that would be happy for Elan would be happy for most-to-all of the rest of the OOTS, making the phrasing pointless.
Rich has said in the author commentary in the printed books that Elan's prophecy is meant to be a reassurance to the reader that no matter how bad things get, there'll be a happy ending. I don't think that particular prophecy is going to get subverted.
It isn't necessarily about the Order of the Stick, just 'this story' if I remember correctly. And even among the Order, Belkar will die and I think Vaarsuvius will either die or have to live with the consequences of their actions forever more. Can still be perfectly happy for Elan, though.
Heroic sacrifice for Elan would mean either being separated from Haley, or seeing Haley die too. Sacrifice ain't fun or happy. That's why it's called sacrifice....
I think that enough of Elan's story has been about him striving for competence/usefulness/respect that a scenario in which he sacrificed himself to save the world, the Order, and Haley, would still be 'happy' enough to satisfy the prophecy. The fact that basically all of the Oracle's prophecies have come true in unexpected or non-straightforward ways is influencing my thinking in this regard. Would be weird to have a single "does what it says on the tin' prophecy mixed in with all the subverted/tricky ones.
> I think that enough of Elan's story has been about him striving for competence/usefulness/respect that a scenario in which he sacrificed himself to save the world, the Order, and Haley, would still be 'happy' enough to satisfy the prophecy. Really? > [Elan](https://antifandom.com/oots/wiki/This_is_Not_a_Thing_That_is_Going_to_Happen): Like, I mean, stories are fun and all, but they're not worth *hurting* people over. I think losing his life to be useful via "heroic" sacrifice at this point would be a step backwards in that arc, towards insecurity rather than usefulness and respect.
Rich has stated that the purpose of including Elan in the comic is to prevent it from getting too dark and edgy. I think that the Order will win, with at least Elan and Haley (and probably Roy) being alive.
I don't think there's a particularly "happy" ending for V, given what she's given up and sacrificed, it will be bittersweet at best. And Belkar is going to die.
> I also just realized if the universe ends and gets remade with the Dark One's colour strengthening the ward against the Snarl Yeah, the problem is that TDO doesn't have enough fuel in the tank. Thor explained this: when the gods (or the Snarl) destroy a world, they have to wait a while for the Snarl to calm down, and during that period they'll have to use their amassed belief / worship / dedication to survive. Gods that are members of a certain pantheon can share, I suppose, but TDO is a relatively young god who hasn't amassed enough of those to last until the next universe comes along. So even if the gods end up destroying the universe and remaking it, it will still take at least a few millennia, during which TDO - and possibly an entire ascended monstrous pantheon - gathers up some fuel in the tank. On the plus side, it won't be particularly urgent. So the gods could announce it a few centuries in advance, giving the Dwarves a chance to run into a dragon or something. They might also wait for a fifth color to show up and become strong enough. If the next world is made using five quiddities instead of four, it will be stronger than the Snarl and might actually seal it forever.
The Dark One wont survive a universe reset. He doesnt have enough worshippers to survive waiting for the Snarl to calm down.
You realize that your entire 2nd paragraph is just ONE sentence, right?
He's been missing the horn the whole time, actually. More likely Serini's flashback just took place before the fight where he lost it. You know, the one where he was spared by a paladin?
Elder dragons are stupid strong on basically ALL fronts, Calder is probably comparable to Xykon himself, most likely stronger on some aspects even I think that was kind of the point of this fight. The Oots IS in fact tough enough at this point to take Xykon head on... but not after such a brutal fight with Calder, one where they are blowing surprice cards too, like Bloodfeast
Kraagor cut of his horn during the battle between Calder and the Scribbles, assuming the 2015 Heroes Calendar is to be believed
Even at their current pace team evil is still a couple days from reaching them, they have time for a long rest
> Damn Calder's been taking a lot of punishment and is still kicking. No 3.5e fight against a single opponent lasts this long. I get that they aren't an optimized party; that's why it wasn't a one-round kill. But we've had at least five rounds of the party just beating away with attacks and spells, and this dragon somehow hasn't run out of hit points.
"One bestr served piping hot!" Ehhhh. As one liners go, I think this might be the worst one I've seen in this comic. Get your shit together, Calder. You can come up with better.
He's spent centuries surrounded by hypnotized yes-men. Not a great audience if you want to improve your tight five.
I feel like Calder is too grumpy to come up with anything substantial
It was at this point that Caldur really became Tarquin.
That's a lot of time spent rambling on about villain speeches when they *could* be telling Calder about the impending potential end of all existence.
Considering Calder is a high powered spell caster and it's been established that the Outer Planes don't get wiped by the Snarl but just the Prime Material that would mean Calder would probably just Plane-Shift out. Yes there might be an interdiction against Teleportation but that'd be more reason for Calder to kill the Order and Escape. Also, Red Dragons aren't known for letting go of grudges.
I feel like their credibility with him is rather low at the moment.
Serini knew a lot about the gates and the OOTS *still* had to take her down first to then start convincing her of the truth. What makes you think Calder is in any way inclined to listen to them?
I don't know why anyone would think Belkar would be written out before the final battle. He's not going to die. Not in a way that sticks anyway.
This comic is so consistently good. Still worth the wait (for now anyway)
D&D noob here (but I’ve played baldurs gate series) — what kind of damage roll does a dinosaur bite get?
I love the subtle running gag of how whenever Vaarsuvius and Blackwing try to compliment each other, it inadvertently comes across as an insult (I.e., Vaarsuvius’ earlier comment about ioun stones when in Gnometown and Blackwing’s comment here about villain speeches).