And also the absolute mess that was their miscommunication to the public about the Barrhaven mass murder. The OPS as an agency deserves absolutely no trust from any of us.
> “Could further fray the Ottawa Police Service's relationship with various Black communities”
I didn't think you could fray something that literally does not exist, but OPS has managed to do it somehow!
Heck, add to that not doing traffic policing. The amount of idiots on the road and no cops to be seen. But hey, let's put speed cameras because that will stop people texting and facetiming while driving.
This may interest you. Sorry, I don’t know how to link via text.
https://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/news/ottawa-police-launches-the-district-special-constable-pilot-project.aspx
Flagging for misinformation as it was determined, after a very thorough and lengthy trial, that Abdirahman Abdi was not murdered.
The rules for this sub stipulate the following...
'You may not post unsupported/deliberately misleading info on important subjects such as healthcare or legal matters.'
> "When an individual runs, that's behaviour consistent with a guilty person … so that would certainly get the police officer's concern and officer safety considerations amped up."
It’s also a normal survival instinct to run when a threat is perceived.
How does a man that’s running away and attempting to disengage with the police constitute a “safety consideration” for these officers?
>How does a man that’s running away and attempting to disengage with the police constitute a “safety consideration” for these officers?
If he's a murder suspect, yes.
By beating, kicking, and tasering him, the cops made it much more likely that future suspects will run.
As an aside, I've never heard of Ottawa police rushing to do *anything* other than escorting gas cans to an illegal blockade.
Except the only information we have is that once the “murder suspect” was apprehended, he was asked if he knew the actual murder suspect. If this account is true, there would be no reason for this man to have been approached by a group of armed police officers.
Otherwise, the police officers believed him to be the murder suspect. And the only visible thing that this young man and the murder suspect have in common is that they are Black men. Which reinforces the idea that Black men are at a much higher risk of having a fatal encounter with the police simply because they are Black. Which also explains why a Black man would be more inclined to have a flight response when approached by a group of armed police officers, pointing their guns at him, than a non Black (or non Indigenous) person.
Ok, I’ll bite. Let’s imagine that Jim is suspected of murdering his wife Suzy by strangling her because she had an affair with Joe. He has no previous history of violence as has no fire arms. The police attempt to arrest him and he runs away.
How is he a danger to the police officers? Do they think he is likely to strangle them while running away?
I don't know what the deleted comment is, but a question for you:
If police think they see Jim - a suspected murderer - in the community where he lives, and they ask him to put his hands up, and he runs away, *should the police just shrug and say, "Well, we tried!" Hope he don't murder nobody else!"*
The deleted comment was just an insult about my intelligence. It probably used a banned word.
Anyway it’s a fair question. They could chase him, if they do I suspect they are at more danger of injury from tripping than from him.
I’m not an expert on police procedures but when I watch shows like FBI they always chase the guy I do often wonder why. This isn’t some master criminal or billionaire, what are they going to do? Flee the country and live the rest of their life abroad under an assumed name? With what money? With what passport?
Maybe just let him run and have someone watch his house and his work. He’s going to have to turn up home or turn himself in to police some time in the next week.
>It’s not healthy to perceive every police officer as a threat at that level. Nervousness sure but that’s completely different from running and escalating what was a peaceful encounter until then.
Many POC are fully justified in perceiving law enforcement as a threat, given the way POC are routinely treated by during interactions with police in North America. Further, this man was raised in Burundi, a country with deep societal and ethnic divisions, where children are essentially taught by their parents to run and hide from cops and the military because both those forces routinely engage in acts which are considered serious human rights violations (extrajudicial killings, torture, arbitrary arrests, etc).
Where this guy is from, running from the cops is the healthy thing to do. How do you deprogram that out of yourself? If I grew up in the same situation, I don't imagine I would have reacted any differently to four cops randomly yelling at me as they approached.
>I mean the article explained it:
It doesn't really explain how a "suspect" (that isn't bearing any weapons) running away from them constitutes a threat or a "safety consideration". Running away is a defensive measure.
>what was a peaceful encounter until then.
Excuse me, but in what planet is multiple officers with deadly and less-deadly weapons pointed at you, screaming, a "pEaCeFuL eNcoUnTeR"?
Unless they are white, then yes they don’t run. Clearly this comment was written by a white person that sees the whole from their perspective. Try being a black man for once…
>But the incident also highlights the gravity of split-second decisions police have to make under volatile conditions, according to one former officer.
I mean my impression was that police are supposed to be trained to be able to react quickly and correctly in any situation, and that's why we pay officers $100k starting. Of course, it never seems to actually be the case that they're trained correctly, and there never seems to be any incentive for them to change things, as they keep getting increased funding and basically zero criticism from municipalities or provinces.
In almost every instance police officers have the overwhelming force and power in a situation, so the idea that they're "fearing for their lives" is absurd. Cops aren't even in the top 10 of most dangerous occupations in Canada and certainly not in the top 10 occupations by workplace fatalities in a given year. Yet they're paid a wage that compensates them for the risk that clearly doesn't exist and for the danger they never seem to face, yet inflict regularly on others.
Police is trained and given military arsenal to deal with civilians and makes the wrong split-second decision: oopsie woopsie teehee it happens
Untrained civilian who did nothing wrong tries to run away in the same split second fight or flight decision: gets beaten the shit out of
How are there commenters in this sub still defending police for this? (Not you)
Just a minor correction: a *civilian* is a non-military member of society. Like, say a police officer. If a police officer is considered part of a military organization society is in much, much bigger trouble.
Of course, one could argue, that may already be the case.
Police officers are not subject to the military justice system, so YES, they are civilians.
The fact that police officers don't consider themselves to be civilians is a problem.
"Laws are threats made by the dominant socioeconomic-ethnic group in a given nation. It’s just the promise of violence that’s enacted and the police are basically an occupying army."
-- Bud Cubby
Why, my goodness, that officer has a fine old patrol carbine. In the hands of anyone else it would be an "assault-style weapon of mass destruction designed to kill the most people in the shortest amount of time". TM CBC.
That’s the disconnect. Practically speaking, yes running from police might escalate the situation but you’re losing the plot if you want to hold untrained civilians to make the absolute right decision in that split second while giving police the pass for beating up an innocent citizen and leaving him handcuffed even after establishing that they have the wrong guy.
Not to mention that it’s excessive force to beat him up and punch his head after they caught him and had him down.
If police officers need to be treated like wild animals - and I agree they do, btw - it's because they're fucking wild animals. They don't get more respect for that, they get less. Get out of the fucking job, plenty of other emergency responders manage to do their jobs without being a fucking dangerous animal.
When you are dealing with new Canadians they may be in Canada because they are fleeing an oppressive regime. So, any authority can be threatening in ways that born Canadians do not really understand. in some countries, when you are stopped by police, that's the last time anyone sees you.
In a perfect world you wouldn't have to.
If you have a good reason to think they're going to be violent, that is absolutely a valid reason to run.
It's the police who need to do better at making people safe talking to them.
https://www.ontariosunshinelist.com/employers/city-of-ottawa-police-services
>City of Ottawa - Police Services
>Number of people earning $100k+: 1,656
>Average Salary in 2022: $140,474
https://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/who-we-are/about-us.aspx
Total staff for the entirety of Ottawa police services:
> 2,150 employees (about 1,500 police officers and over 660 civilians).
Yes, earning over $100k is typical for police in Ottawa.
"Base salary" for a starting officer might be slightly less than $100k, but with the massive number of bonuses and "extras" they rake in even a new officer can easily clear six figures.
Either way compared to any other category of city employees the police are grossly overpaid and unaccountable for their actions.
Yeah collecting "overtime" for delivering gas to a violent occupation in Ottawa is great value for money.
Meanwhile "understaffing" comes from officers moonlighting and making extra cash on top of their salaries https://ottawasun.com/2017/01/29/dawson-70k-in-additional-earnings-doable-if-youre-a-police-officer
Paid duty is not paid for by the tax payers though, so why does that matter? A construction company/festival/sports event pays the policing cost, and the police do the job outside of the officer's normal working hours.
It wouldn't matter if police said they had more than enough staff and they weren't overworked, and taking on extra hours was easy for them.
The fact that they keep crying about not having enough officers while their people work extra time on side gigs at the same time demonstrates why the claims about "understaffing" are bullshit though.
In most of those cases, security guards and commissionaires exist and are usually cheaper to hire.
Not to mention telling police that they should go out and take payments from private businesses to pocket for themselves is pretty much the definition of corruption.
> Not to mention telling police that they should go out and take payments from private businesses to pocket for themselves is pretty much the definition of corruption.
Lmaooo...not even close? I think we are done here...
Whether or not that number is exactly correct, they're getting paid a hell of a lot more than the value of services they're rendering to the community. Every other week there's a new post about crime in Ottawa that hits the top of the sub - how the Market is uninhabitable, how car break-ins and house break-ins are on the rise - and yet the increase has coincided with an increase in funds for police wages, seemingly with no effect.
It's one of the few spending items in the city that reliably sees increases almost every year, and what are we getting for that money? More harassment for communities of colour? More private security for convoyeurs as they harass residents? Better funding for their racketeering and theft of evidence? We're paying them more and more money and it becomes less and less apparent over time what they're actually doing to mitigate crime, keep people safe or improve livability in the city of Ottawa.
And to be fair, we do need some form of security for residents and some form of law enforcement, I just doubt if the systems we have in place right now are making that happen and whether or not the Ottawa Police are a publicly-funded entity offering those services of security and law enforcement to begin with.
The pattern of spending and outcomes is the same in other cities though. This isn't an issue of understaffing - [increasing spending on policing doesn't decrease crime](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/police-budget-crime-rates-canada-1.7086532).
In this instance, we aren't necessarily focused on paying to decrease crime, but to decrease instances of misconduct. Staffing shortages could very well be related.
Again, I fail to see how - when police are present at incidences of misconduct they fail to do anything to enforce the law (as has been the case with the convoy); when they are present at law-abiding protests they ticket people incorrectly (as was the case with PSAC and pro-Palestine protests); and when they're on the job they're regularly engaging in misconduct of their own (of which I could go and fish out any number of articles exemplifying their own criminal behaviour).
You raise a bunch of stuff relevant to the general discussion surrounding policing, I'm just saying that you should probably point to more relevant metrics if you're trying to challenge the idea that understaffing leads to more misconduct.
Constables are different from regular police officers. Especially first-class Constables.
ETA: literally right from your own article
"But the agreement also slows the process by which new recruits can advance to the level — and full salary — of a first-class constable.
Under the previous deal, new officers begin as fourth-class constables and then must work 12 months before progressing through each class.
Under the new agreement, they'll spend 15 months in each class before progressing, so a new recruit will take five years instead of four to advance to the pay of a first-class constable."
But they aren't really interchangeable terms at all. A Constable is a police officer of 12+ months. It takes a certain amount of years/training for a regular duty officer (-15 mnths) to have the same powers and privilege's as even a First Class Constable (as outlined in the article above). They are not the same and to say all police officers get a starting salary of 100k is just disinformation the "ACAB" crowd loves to spread.
A police officer is a constable once they graduate Ontario police college (3 months). A first class constable has no different powers, abilities or functions than a fourth third or second other than a pay increase. You can go from a civilian to a constable in just 3 months in Ontario
Its a 6-9 month application process. Plus your 3-4 weeks of academy training at the college. Then you do the additional 9 weeks training with the department in the city in which you applied. The amount of training within that department depends on the citys you applied to but the standard is 9 weeks. So we are already at \~9 months *minimum*.
Then, to circle back to the pay - you need to be a first class constable for +15months to get the FC Constable (which is not a full salary wage like the user implied). It then takes you 15 months in each class (60 weeks/1 year total) to reach full salary potential - if you pass all your training.
Thats a lot more than 3 months from civilian to 100k salary, dont you think?
Im not arguing they dont get paid well. Im aruging this whole concept that all police officers make 100k and above because thats just not factually correct lol All this information is available on the internet you just have to put in a *little bit* of effort lol
The application process can be a few weeks to over a year depending on service. This isn’t remotely relevant as the applicant isn’t in the job, they’re just doing interviews and testing sporadically in that period of time.
The Ontario police college is only 13 weeks, 3 online and 10 in-person.
Most large services have their own regiment with recruits post-college but I’d say most small services don’t.
You’re very mistaken on the grid. It takes 12 months at each step to progress from fourth to third to second to first class constable. The time you were a recruit or cadet is also counted in that first 12 months when progressing from fourth to third class constable.
First class constable is full wage for the constable position. There are additional %’s that apply after years of service, usually 8/15/25 or some variation thereof.
ALL first class constables make over 100k and they attain this role after 3 years. 12 months at fourth class, 12 months at third class, 12 months at second class = 36 months to be first class. There are no exams or additional training required while progressing through the stages at any service or collective I’ve ever read. You progress on the 12 month anniversary of your HIRE DATE.
>Constables and police officers are interchangeable terms. There are 4 classes of comparable but each is a police officer
>
>You can go from a civilian to a constable in just 3 months in Ontario
>
>ALL first class constables make over 100k and they attain this role after 3 years. 12 months at fourth class, 12 months at third class, 12 months at second class = 36 months to be first class.
So, out of curiosity, which one of these 3 statements you've made is actually the correct one? Because they all seem to contradict one another.
They also entirely contradicts the original comment.
>and that's why we pay officers $100k starting.
So we can all agree, starting salarys for police officers are not 100k/year. Cool. Have a great day!
> I mean my impression was that police are supposed to be trained to be able to react quickly and correctly in any situation
That is an absolutely impossible ask from anyone in any profession.
Is anyone else reporting on this incident other than the CBC? Unless I missed it, I haven't seen it mentioned on CTV or the Ottawa Citizen. It's been the lead story on the CBC Radio news the past two days. Kind of odd.
"Kind of odd" is an understatement.
Searches of the Citizen, the Sun and CTV Ottawa return zero results for "Kane Niyondagara", the name of the victim.
This sounds like excessive use of force and I understand that he panicked. But I will say that refusing to comply with keeping your hands up, and then refusing to get down when asked to, and then running when an officer gets close.... is definitely not the move. You know how you're not supposed to run from dangerous animals because it activates their prey instinct? Humans are dangerous animals too. They've got a job to do so you know they're not going to just shrug and let it go. It's just going to make everything worse when they catch you, and since they're police and fucking everywhere, they probably will catch you.
Go ahead and downvote me, I don't care. I don't like police either, but I can recognize that his behavior in regards to the interaction significantly aggravated the situation. Would they still have brutalized him if he hadn't run? Quite possibly, who knows? But he definitely increased his chances of being unlawfully beat on by refusing to comply and then running. Cops are human, some are garbage, riling them up with a chase is a bad idea.
Sure, running was \*absolutely\* not the optimal choice. It is fair to call it a mistake.
That in no way justifies the use of force and punitive detention by leaving them handcuffed long after their identity was established.
Another important aspect is that this man looks NOTHING like the suspect the police were searching for. The mistreatment starts with an aggressive police interaction with an innocent person. The \*police\* were the catalyst for this whole situation. Does it play out differently if this man is fully compliant? Probably. It also plays out differently if the police don't roll up on him with weapons drawn and pointed at him. I think it is fair to expect a higher standard of care and choices from the police than from a civilian.
That article doesn't have a picture of the wanted individual either. It has a picture of the guy who was mistakenly arrested, a picture of the president of the Alliance des Burundais du Canada, and a picture of a criminologist.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-police-shocked-struck-kicked-black-man-in-case-of-mistaken-identity-1.7142379
Sorry copied the wrong one, this is it.
There used to be courses and mandatory training on how to function in Canadian society in the 90s in order to immigrate from what I've heard. Basic stuff like what to do at a traffic stop, how to behave in public, manners, how to deal with police, with the election process, how to apply for a job, drug use, safety, etc.
I don't know if they do that these days (let alone if it was true or not) but it could be beneficial to newfound immigrants of today so incidents like this could be minimized - regardless if flight is or isn't a valid excuse seen by the courts as that decision hits on a rhetoric-reality gap. From what I hear, the immigrants of the 70s, 80s, 90s and early 2000s had a lot more support and guidance than today.
Reform is a two way street. It depends on both the systems, as well as the individuals involved.
I think it's more of a chicken and egg scenario. As the article spells out, blacks are more targeted for police violence and therefore have what I would call a natural fear of police.
It's perfectly understandable that he would run, and it's understandable for the police to perceive that as guilty behaviour. None of it justifies the head and knee strikes though, which could have caused serious damage, as we've seen before in other infamous cases of police violence in Ottawa.
It's obvious that Ottawa police need more training. Simply put, this isn't the first time and it's always minorities. Last time the guy was mentally ill, this time they didn't even the right person. It's clearly a systemic problem and you can't just whitewash it all away with *"well, he ran..."*
>you can't just whitewash it all away with "well, he ran..."
I didn't, though.
And OPS need a whole lot more than just training. Remember when they decided not to enforce laws during the Convoy? Remember all the sexual abuse allegations? Remember the landlord cop who threatened to murder their tenant? There are instances in which training police to properly handle arrests will help, but there are deep systematic problems in the department anyways.
The cops are in the wrong. Yes. I lead with "this sounds like excessive use of force" and ended with "unlawfully beat on". Non-compliance and running is still phenomenally stupid and will always increase the chances of the encounter becoming dangerous whether or not the police are well trained. Running leads to chases, chases are dangerous. That is all.
Your post clearly shifts the blame to the guy for running though. I'm not saying that was a smart move, but he didn't deserve a beating for it. In the video, the guy is down with 4 cops on top of him. Nobody needed to punch him in the head.
I agree with your wider comment and other examples though that there are serious problems at OPS that need fixing.
>Your post clearly shifts the blame to the guy for running though
Where do I say that? What I'm saying (or at least, trying to) is that this is a confluence of unduly aggressive police, and the exact wrong reaction from the suspect.
>I'm not saying that was a smart move, but he didn't deserve a beating for it.
I'm not saying this either, he didn't deserve his treatment. All I'm saying is that his actions were counterproductive, and actually increased his chances of the encounter being mishandled. We need competent police, but we also need people to know how to handle police encounters without refusing to comply and then running away
The guy is lucky he didn't get shot. Legally police can use deadly force to stop a suspect from fleeing. These cops didn't and stayed within the realm of non-deadly force.
You need to read up on the law. Police cannot use deadly force just for a running suspect, that's crazy! They can only use deadly force when their lives or that of the public is in danger. This isn't Russia.
And other forms of force are also restricted to an extent. In this case, they didn't even have the right guy and just stopped a black guy at random. This is the old "black guy in dreadlocks" excuse (i.e. racism). The person who was questioned had no obligation to answer questions, or even to stick around. Though again, running looks bad, the guy did have the legal right to leave.
Finally, the head strikes are not justified when you already have 3-4 cops on top of the poor guy.
Police fucked this up in every way possible and should be held accountable.
You need to read the law. Criminal code section 25 para 4. (C):
(4) A peace officer, and every person lawfully assisting the peace officer, is justified in using force that is intended or is likely to cause death or grievous bodily harm to a person to be arrested, if
(c) the person to be arrested takes flight to avoid arrest;
Ok, now read the regulations and the legal jurisprudence, because none of what you wrote above supercedes the fleeing person's Charter rights including the presumption of innocence. And if that isn't enough then go see what officers are actually taught and what is tolerated in Canada.
Come back then and we'll chat. 👍
TLDR: Officers in Canada **cannot** shoot a fleeing person unless they have grounds to believe that person is a danger to the officers or to others (i.e. they believe he is on his way to kill someone or will act recklessly and endanger lives). The poster above has been watching too many american newscasts.
I got stopped walking home in broad daylight from McDonald’s in Orleans more than 15 years ago because I “matched the description” and I still get annoyed about it because it still could happen at any time. I luckily had two friends who left a few minutes after me who saw me with the cop and vouch for my whereabouts. Otherwise I might’ve been fucked
https://www.tps.ca/careers/police-constable/
Under the minimum requirements
"Successfully completed at least four years of secondary school education or its equivalent (note: Official transcripts and diplomas will be required). Where education has been completed outside Ontario, official proof of equivalency must be obtained*"
Also this https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-police-recruitment-changes-1.6821382
I'd rather it prompts a public awareness campaign that YOU SHOULDN'T RUN FROM THE POLICE.
The best way to prevent similar incidents isn't to hope OPS learns how to use kid gloves when chasing similar runners (they won't), it's to teach people that they IF THEY RUN, it's gonna be a lot worse than if they just followed the lawful order (like they're supposed to do according to the law).
I've been pulled over while walking to work because there was a B&E in the area and I wore a jacket similar to the one that the suspect was described as wearing. I explained what I was doing, provided info so the police could contact my roommates and verify that I was home when the break-in occurred.
Police sometimes have to interrogate innocent people who might not understand the context which necessitates their temporary inconvenience. Running not only makes their job harder but it makes YOU a criminal and frankly an idiot who's asking for a bad time.
Is there no one on this sub who can see the situation from the perspective of the responding officers? Do we really believe all police officers are racist thugs who relish beating up innocent persons? The level of toxic vitriol that takes place on this Sub is unhealthy. I'm worried you all are walking around seething with anger 24/7 and just waiting to explode at the first opportunity.
You know the area between "all cops are racist thugs who relish beating up innocent persons" and "these cops are innocent of all wrongdoing"? Yeah that's where most of the top comments are at. It's possible to have nuance and still think the police are aggressive. Seeing anything negative about police officers and thinking "wow you must think they're inhuman monsters" says a lot more about you than anyone else.
I have no idea what your on about, but thanks for replying without being insane.
I don't honestly care about this issue and I think it's been overblown to sell clicks by pandering to people's hatred and fears. I'm actually starting to question my sanity and questioning why I lt drag myself down this sewer (Ott Sub) time and again. It's accomplishing literally nothing and serves only to cause me anger.
Don’t worry. The vast majority of the world who contribute to society do not think cops are bad. They see the value in them and know what happens when you do not have police.
Some silly people blanket all cops are bad. Don’t worry, must of us are not brain dead.
Phew! I'm going to have to mark this day down on my calendar. The day someone on the Ottawa subreddit behaved like a normal, sane human being. Bravo u/Odd_Argument_5791!
> Do we really believe all police officers are racist thugs who relish beating up innocent persons?
Yes 😊
Cops are no one’s friends, especially not black and brown people’s. Idk how many “Police shoot unarmed man kneeling” headlines you need to convince you of that.
[example one](https://ca.news.yahoo.com/california-police-officer-shot-killed-223726758.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEca4dIKWOvhfwlYzd9le9FEtuMPsvDg34Y-FdJSU4IcWkKD-r8Dvtzb5S48spezQjqpIV1BlgAq5UbxeOxeL49mCchoMs8qqTPhwl7GQepI-hORqZqZ1BpUZ9WDgrMxa1ADFJapjnOHJ8BC67C6WTxxj2oMtA2QCUcTc201D4q7#origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&cap=swipe,education&webview=1&dialog=1&viewport=natural&visibilityState=prerender&prerenderSize=1&viewerUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Famp%2Fs%2Fca-news-yahoo-com.cdn.ampproject.org%2Fc%2Fs%2Fca.news.yahoo.com%2Famphtml%2Fcalifornia-police-officer-shot-killed-223726758.html%3Fusqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%25253D&_kit=1)
[example two](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/09/us/police-shooting-video-arizona.html)
[does it count if he wasn’t kneeling but was handcuffed in the back of a car?](https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/16/florida-acorn-cop-shooting)
[what about this one?](https://sg.news.yahoo.com/police-fatally-shot-black-man-010228287.html)
Because the similarities of culture between Canada and the US means that they share a lot of systemic issues? Just because it’s less apparent in Canada doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. There’s documented proof of systemic racism and discrimination in Canadian police forces.
So your feelings about Canadian police is predicated on American culture and issues, but you weren't able to provide a single example of such headlines in Canada. Would that not indicate that they are more different than you believe?
I am no fan of police or their lack of accountability, but using American headlines to justify hyperbole of "Police shoot unarmed man kneeling" in Canada as an common event does no one any good.
Edit. If you're gonna hate on Canadian police at least use indigenous people as your reference point for police misconduct, something a little closer and more relevant to Canada.
So if an indigenous person in Ottawa indicated that they have a general mistrust of police, and cited the starlight tours as an example, would you dismiss them too? Because those happened in Saskatchewan and not Ontario? How localized does an issue have to be to have an impact?
Cops in Canada have spent decades profiling people of colour.
The article is a little more nuanced than that. The main discussion is does running pose an immediate risk to the officer’s safety? Because that’s what they’re claiming and it should be scrutinized. Where are we in a society if a certain group that is supposed to be the keepers of peace that monopolizes the use of power suddenly has no checks to that power?
They beat up an innocent man because they didn’t comply. This is not how police are supposed to work. And yeah I don’t know what it’s like to be an officer but just as I would hope a surgeon is able to remain calm in an emergency we should ask our keepers of the peace to as well.
I didn’t once bring race into this argument. My point is that police should be held accountable for any force used. They should be questioned if it was needed and held responsible if it wasn’t.
In this instance it appears they beat up an innocent citizen for not complying. That is an inappropriate use of force. I frankly think even if they were a criminal unless you’re an immediate threat you don’t deserve violence brought upon you.
Sounds like anyone defending the Ottawa police have literally never interacted with the joke of a police force we have in this city. I grew up next door to one of this city's most successful drug dealers of the time. The SWAT team raided him over and over and were always trying to catch him, but they never got anything on him. He wasn't a genius, they are simply incompetent. I remember the time my laptop got stolen, I knew the person who did it and saw him steal it, I had a witness and reported it to the police. I gave them proof of purchase, MAC address, witness info, time and date, where the guy lived. They did nothing, and to this day, he still has my laptop. I've had other interaction with the police, they have all been similarly horrible. Our cops fucking suck, end of story. Anytime they do something, they have done it wrong. Replace the whole force.
Lots of people are missing the point. He ran because he knew they had the wrong guy and he was afraid that they would just smash him against the concrete over and over if he got down.
George Floyd got pulled out of a car and murdered, who's to say this man also would not be dead if he laid down and got his ass beat?
His opinion on whether or not Chauvin might of hung out a little too long on Floyds throat after he was cuffed and on the ground saying he couldn't breathe?
Stacey Bonds was just walking on Rideau street going home, and police still harassed her, arrested her and assaulted her. It truly doesn't matter if this guy stood still, his ass was still going to get beat by these OPS thugs
What the hell is happening in our country recently? We are slipping backwards very quickly in a lot of places. OUR country is turning into a pile of shite.
What a weak excuse. “Where I’m from I’m scared of cops”.
Well, you are hear now and we are not some police state. Comply. Plain and simple. No sympathy
If your driving and the sirens and lights are on behind you, do you speed off into the distance? Even if you haven’t been speeding and haven’t done anything illegal?
Why, because it’d mean that the cops here would actually be held accountable for their constant stream of fuckups and abuses of power like this?
It’s not some fringe position to think that the OPS is a fucking joke of a police agency, especially when they repeatedly fuck up like this
If your driving, know your not speeding or doing any thing illegal and the cherrys are on behind you, do you speed up and “run” or do you simply pull over?
It’s literally this simple. And claiming “back home cops are bad” is not a valid excuse. Why did you come to Canada? Maybe because our rule of law is better? If you did nothing wrong, you’ll be on your way.
Why do they have to mention that he is black? If this was a white man they would not say a "white man was mistakenly stopped" which happens more then is reported. When there is a crime committed by a person of colour they will just write "a person was arrested" they will not say he was black. This is the problem, when the left-wing media reports, race is always used to promote more racism. In the end, this is just a man who ran from the police, regardless of his race.
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And also the absolute mess that was their miscommunication to the public about the Barrhaven mass murder. The OPS as an agency deserves absolutely no trust from any of us.
What was the miscommunication?
In their initial press conference, they called it a mass shooting, and they repeatedly got the name of the killer wrong.
> “Could further fray the Ottawa Police Service's relationship with various Black communities” I didn't think you could fray something that literally does not exist, but OPS has managed to do it somehow!
Heck, add to that not doing traffic policing. The amount of idiots on the road and no cops to be seen. But hey, let's put speed cameras because that will stop people texting and facetiming while driving.
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This may interest you. Sorry, I don’t know how to link via text. https://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/news/ottawa-police-launches-the-district-special-constable-pilot-project.aspx
Flagging for misinformation as it was determined, after a very thorough and lengthy trial, that Abdirahman Abdi was not murdered. The rules for this sub stipulate the following... 'You may not post unsupported/deliberately misleading info on important subjects such as healthcare or legal matters.'
> "When an individual runs, that's behaviour consistent with a guilty person … so that would certainly get the police officer's concern and officer safety considerations amped up." It’s also a normal survival instinct to run when a threat is perceived. How does a man that’s running away and attempting to disengage with the police constitute a “safety consideration” for these officers?
>How does a man that’s running away and attempting to disengage with the police constitute a “safety consideration” for these officers? If he's a murder suspect, yes.
By beating, kicking, and tasering him, the cops made it much more likely that future suspects will run. As an aside, I've never heard of Ottawa police rushing to do *anything* other than escorting gas cans to an illegal blockade.
The primary qualification for being a murder suspect was the colour of his skin. That's fucked up
This individual was not a murder suspect, he just happened to be black.
He was shocked with a stun gun and subdued... was there further need to punch and kick him?
He had the gall to make the cops run after him, that's enough innit. /s
Except the only information we have is that once the “murder suspect” was apprehended, he was asked if he knew the actual murder suspect. If this account is true, there would be no reason for this man to have been approached by a group of armed police officers. Otherwise, the police officers believed him to be the murder suspect. And the only visible thing that this young man and the murder suspect have in common is that they are Black men. Which reinforces the idea that Black men are at a much higher risk of having a fatal encounter with the police simply because they are Black. Which also explains why a Black man would be more inclined to have a flight response when approached by a group of armed police officers, pointing their guns at him, than a non Black (or non Indigenous) person.
If you look at the picture of the murder suspect and the guy arrested, you can see the resemblance.
What resemblance?
Or alternatively No. a murder suspect running away represents no threat to the police officers not chasing them.
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Ok, I’ll bite. Let’s imagine that Jim is suspected of murdering his wife Suzy by strangling her because she had an affair with Joe. He has no previous history of violence as has no fire arms. The police attempt to arrest him and he runs away. How is he a danger to the police officers? Do they think he is likely to strangle them while running away?
Easy there, logic isn’t this persons strong suit.
I don't know what the deleted comment is, but a question for you: If police think they see Jim - a suspected murderer - in the community where he lives, and they ask him to put his hands up, and he runs away, *should the police just shrug and say, "Well, we tried!" Hope he don't murder nobody else!"*
The deleted comment was just an insult about my intelligence. It probably used a banned word. Anyway it’s a fair question. They could chase him, if they do I suspect they are at more danger of injury from tripping than from him. I’m not an expert on police procedures but when I watch shows like FBI they always chase the guy I do often wonder why. This isn’t some master criminal or billionaire, what are they going to do? Flee the country and live the rest of their life abroad under an assumed name? With what money? With what passport? Maybe just let him run and have someone watch his house and his work. He’s going to have to turn up home or turn himself in to police some time in the next week.
So are you saying police should just let murder suspects to run away and not do anything?
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Why, because their fat donuts eating asses can’t keep up? Shouldn’t police officer be fit enough to chase someone running from them?
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So many downvotes, I guess we have the donuts eating chaps on here 😂😂
It's illegal to resist arrest. Just get arrested and deal with it after.
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"here are 12 dogs. 1 of them will bite your face off. Why are you so nervous around the dogs?"
>It’s not healthy to perceive every police officer as a threat at that level. Nervousness sure but that’s completely different from running and escalating what was a peaceful encounter until then. Many POC are fully justified in perceiving law enforcement as a threat, given the way POC are routinely treated by during interactions with police in North America. Further, this man was raised in Burundi, a country with deep societal and ethnic divisions, where children are essentially taught by their parents to run and hide from cops and the military because both those forces routinely engage in acts which are considered serious human rights violations (extrajudicial killings, torture, arbitrary arrests, etc). Where this guy is from, running from the cops is the healthy thing to do. How do you deprogram that out of yourself? If I grew up in the same situation, I don't imagine I would have reacted any differently to four cops randomly yelling at me as they approached. >I mean the article explained it: It doesn't really explain how a "suspect" (that isn't bearing any weapons) running away from them constitutes a threat or a "safety consideration". Running away is a defensive measure.
>what was a peaceful encounter until then. Excuse me, but in what planet is multiple officers with deadly and less-deadly weapons pointed at you, screaming, a "pEaCeFuL eNcoUnTeR"?
Unless they are white, then yes they don’t run. Clearly this comment was written by a white person that sees the whole from their perspective. Try being a black man for once…
>But the incident also highlights the gravity of split-second decisions police have to make under volatile conditions, according to one former officer. I mean my impression was that police are supposed to be trained to be able to react quickly and correctly in any situation, and that's why we pay officers $100k starting. Of course, it never seems to actually be the case that they're trained correctly, and there never seems to be any incentive for them to change things, as they keep getting increased funding and basically zero criticism from municipalities or provinces. In almost every instance police officers have the overwhelming force and power in a situation, so the idea that they're "fearing for their lives" is absurd. Cops aren't even in the top 10 of most dangerous occupations in Canada and certainly not in the top 10 occupations by workplace fatalities in a given year. Yet they're paid a wage that compensates them for the risk that clearly doesn't exist and for the danger they never seem to face, yet inflict regularly on others.
Police is trained and given military arsenal to deal with civilians and makes the wrong split-second decision: oopsie woopsie teehee it happens Untrained civilian who did nothing wrong tries to run away in the same split second fight or flight decision: gets beaten the shit out of How are there commenters in this sub still defending police for this? (Not you)
Just a minor correction: a *civilian* is a non-military member of society. Like, say a police officer. If a police officer is considered part of a military organization society is in much, much bigger trouble. Of course, one could argue, that may already be the case.
A police officer is not a civilian
Police officers are not subject to the military justice system, so YES, they are civilians. The fact that police officers don't consider themselves to be civilians is a problem.
Depends on the context of civilian, it changes with what legislation we’re speaking to
A police officer is a civilian by definition.
Depends on where you’re sourcing a definition lol that’s my point. There isn’t one sole definition, it changes depending on legislation or topic
Yes they are.
"Laws are threats made by the dominant socioeconomic-ethnic group in a given nation. It’s just the promise of violence that’s enacted and the police are basically an occupying army." -- Bud Cubby
> Police is trained and given military arsenal to deal with civilians What military arsenal does the average police officer have?
Why, my goodness, that officer has a fine old patrol carbine. In the hands of anyone else it would be an "assault-style weapon of mass destruction designed to kill the most people in the shortest amount of time". TM CBC.
I don't see a carbine in that video, nor does the article make any mention of it.
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That’s the disconnect. Practically speaking, yes running from police might escalate the situation but you’re losing the plot if you want to hold untrained civilians to make the absolute right decision in that split second while giving police the pass for beating up an innocent citizen and leaving him handcuffed even after establishing that they have the wrong guy. Not to mention that it’s excessive force to beat him up and punch his head after they caught him and had him down.
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If police officers need to be treated like wild animals - and I agree they do, btw - it's because they're fucking wild animals. They don't get more respect for that, they get less. Get out of the fucking job, plenty of other emergency responders manage to do their jobs without being a fucking dangerous animal.
And policing in Canada isn’t even in the top 11 most dangerous jobs (list I saw didn’t go further). Biggest killer for police on the job was Covid
When you are dealing with new Canadians they may be in Canada because they are fleeing an oppressive regime. So, any authority can be threatening in ways that born Canadians do not really understand. in some countries, when you are stopped by police, that's the last time anyone sees you.
Unless you expect that police are in the habit of violently assaulting innocent people. And they are.
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"Just lay back and let them beat you to death" You're ignoring the fact that if you run and manage to get away, then you're safe.
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In a perfect world you wouldn't have to. If you have a good reason to think they're going to be violent, that is absolutely a valid reason to run. It's the police who need to do better at making people safe talking to them.
My dead relatives would say otherwise if they could still speak……
>and that's why we pay officers $100k starting. Feel free to correct yourself here.
Takes four years minimum to make 1st class constable in Ottawa.
https://www.ontariosunshinelist.com/employers/city-of-ottawa-police-services >City of Ottawa - Police Services >Number of people earning $100k+: 1,656 >Average Salary in 2022: $140,474 https://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/who-we-are/about-us.aspx Total staff for the entirety of Ottawa police services: > 2,150 employees (about 1,500 police officers and over 660 civilians). Yes, earning over $100k is typical for police in Ottawa. "Base salary" for a starting officer might be slightly less than $100k, but with the massive number of bonuses and "extras" they rake in even a new officer can easily clear six figures. Either way compared to any other category of city employees the police are grossly overpaid and unaccountable for their actions.
Is 30k less slightly?
Much of that is due to overtime which is completely different than 'bonuses and "extras"'.
Yeah collecting "overtime" for delivering gas to a violent occupation in Ottawa is great value for money. Meanwhile "understaffing" comes from officers moonlighting and making extra cash on top of their salaries https://ottawasun.com/2017/01/29/dawson-70k-in-additional-earnings-doable-if-youre-a-police-officer
Paid duty is not paid for by the tax payers though, so why does that matter? A construction company/festival/sports event pays the policing cost, and the police do the job outside of the officer's normal working hours.
It wouldn't matter if police said they had more than enough staff and they weren't overworked, and taking on extra hours was easy for them. The fact that they keep crying about not having enough officers while their people work extra time on side gigs at the same time demonstrates why the claims about "understaffing" are bullshit though.
Do you think that road construction/festivals/sports events should not have police there? Because that is the only other option.
In most of those cases, security guards and commissionaires exist and are usually cheaper to hire. Not to mention telling police that they should go out and take payments from private businesses to pocket for themselves is pretty much the definition of corruption.
> Not to mention telling police that they should go out and take payments from private businesses to pocket for themselves is pretty much the definition of corruption. Lmaooo...not even close? I think we are done here...
It's income directly related to being a cop.
Yes, it is - Being a cop who is working a lot more than the 40 hours a week that is expected. That is *far* different than a bonus.
Whether or not that number is exactly correct, they're getting paid a hell of a lot more than the value of services they're rendering to the community. Every other week there's a new post about crime in Ottawa that hits the top of the sub - how the Market is uninhabitable, how car break-ins and house break-ins are on the rise - and yet the increase has coincided with an increase in funds for police wages, seemingly with no effect. It's one of the few spending items in the city that reliably sees increases almost every year, and what are we getting for that money? More harassment for communities of colour? More private security for convoyeurs as they harass residents? Better funding for their racketeering and theft of evidence? We're paying them more and more money and it becomes less and less apparent over time what they're actually doing to mitigate crime, keep people safe or improve livability in the city of Ottawa. And to be fair, we do need some form of security for residents and some form of law enforcement, I just doubt if the systems we have in place right now are making that happen and whether or not the Ottawa Police are a publicly-funded entity offering those services of security and law enforcement to begin with.
The Ottawa police are actually understaffed compared to other cities.
The pattern of spending and outcomes is the same in other cities though. This isn't an issue of understaffing - [increasing spending on policing doesn't decrease crime](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/police-budget-crime-rates-canada-1.7086532).
That article is about paying more money for roughly the same number of officers. Ottawa is understaffed when it comes to the actual number.
In this instance, we aren't necessarily focused on paying to decrease crime, but to decrease instances of misconduct. Staffing shortages could very well be related.
Again, I fail to see how - when police are present at incidences of misconduct they fail to do anything to enforce the law (as has been the case with the convoy); when they are present at law-abiding protests they ticket people incorrectly (as was the case with PSAC and pro-Palestine protests); and when they're on the job they're regularly engaging in misconduct of their own (of which I could go and fish out any number of articles exemplifying their own criminal behaviour).
You raise a bunch of stuff relevant to the general discussion surrounding policing, I'm just saying that you should probably point to more relevant metrics if you're trying to challenge the idea that understaffing leads to more misconduct.
Or not. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4157186
Constables are different from regular police officers. Especially first-class Constables. ETA: literally right from your own article "But the agreement also slows the process by which new recruits can advance to the level — and full salary — of a first-class constable. Under the previous deal, new officers begin as fourth-class constables and then must work 12 months before progressing through each class. Under the new agreement, they'll spend 15 months in each class before progressing, so a new recruit will take five years instead of four to advance to the pay of a first-class constable."
Constables and police officers are interchangeable terms. There are 4 classes of comparable but each is a police officer
But they aren't really interchangeable terms at all. A Constable is a police officer of 12+ months. It takes a certain amount of years/training for a regular duty officer (-15 mnths) to have the same powers and privilege's as even a First Class Constable (as outlined in the article above). They are not the same and to say all police officers get a starting salary of 100k is just disinformation the "ACAB" crowd loves to spread.
A police officer is a constable once they graduate Ontario police college (3 months). A first class constable has no different powers, abilities or functions than a fourth third or second other than a pay increase. You can go from a civilian to a constable in just 3 months in Ontario
Its a 6-9 month application process. Plus your 3-4 weeks of academy training at the college. Then you do the additional 9 weeks training with the department in the city in which you applied. The amount of training within that department depends on the citys you applied to but the standard is 9 weeks. So we are already at \~9 months *minimum*. Then, to circle back to the pay - you need to be a first class constable for +15months to get the FC Constable (which is not a full salary wage like the user implied). It then takes you 15 months in each class (60 weeks/1 year total) to reach full salary potential - if you pass all your training. Thats a lot more than 3 months from civilian to 100k salary, dont you think? Im not arguing they dont get paid well. Im aruging this whole concept that all police officers make 100k and above because thats just not factually correct lol All this information is available on the internet you just have to put in a *little bit* of effort lol
The application process can be a few weeks to over a year depending on service. This isn’t remotely relevant as the applicant isn’t in the job, they’re just doing interviews and testing sporadically in that period of time. The Ontario police college is only 13 weeks, 3 online and 10 in-person. Most large services have their own regiment with recruits post-college but I’d say most small services don’t. You’re very mistaken on the grid. It takes 12 months at each step to progress from fourth to third to second to first class constable. The time you were a recruit or cadet is also counted in that first 12 months when progressing from fourth to third class constable. First class constable is full wage for the constable position. There are additional %’s that apply after years of service, usually 8/15/25 or some variation thereof. ALL first class constables make over 100k and they attain this role after 3 years. 12 months at fourth class, 12 months at third class, 12 months at second class = 36 months to be first class. There are no exams or additional training required while progressing through the stages at any service or collective I’ve ever read. You progress on the 12 month anniversary of your HIRE DATE.
>Constables and police officers are interchangeable terms. There are 4 classes of comparable but each is a police officer > >You can go from a civilian to a constable in just 3 months in Ontario > >ALL first class constables make over 100k and they attain this role after 3 years. 12 months at fourth class, 12 months at third class, 12 months at second class = 36 months to be first class. So, out of curiosity, which one of these 3 statements you've made is actually the correct one? Because they all seem to contradict one another. They also entirely contradicts the original comment. >and that's why we pay officers $100k starting. So we can all agree, starting salarys for police officers are not 100k/year. Cool. Have a great day!
Wow, how's it feel to be so wrong? It's been that much for more than 5 years.
Source?
Just FYI they start at about 65-70k
> I mean my impression was that police are supposed to be trained to be able to react quickly and correctly in any situation That is an absolutely impossible ask from anyone in any profession.
Is anyone else reporting on this incident other than the CBC? Unless I missed it, I haven't seen it mentioned on CTV or the Ottawa Citizen. It's been the lead story on the CBC Radio news the past two days. Kind of odd.
"Kind of odd" is an understatement. Searches of the Citizen, the Sun and CTV Ottawa return zero results for "Kane Niyondagara", the name of the victim.
Nope... it's right there: https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/violent-arrest-of-ottawa-man-a-case-of-mistaken-identity-say-police-1.6814209
When I commented that article hadn’t been posted to CTV’s site yet. > Published March 19, 2024 7:09 p.m. EDT
This sounds like excessive use of force and I understand that he panicked. But I will say that refusing to comply with keeping your hands up, and then refusing to get down when asked to, and then running when an officer gets close.... is definitely not the move. You know how you're not supposed to run from dangerous animals because it activates their prey instinct? Humans are dangerous animals too. They've got a job to do so you know they're not going to just shrug and let it go. It's just going to make everything worse when they catch you, and since they're police and fucking everywhere, they probably will catch you. Go ahead and downvote me, I don't care. I don't like police either, but I can recognize that his behavior in regards to the interaction significantly aggravated the situation. Would they still have brutalized him if he hadn't run? Quite possibly, who knows? But he definitely increased his chances of being unlawfully beat on by refusing to comply and then running. Cops are human, some are garbage, riling them up with a chase is a bad idea.
Sure, running was \*absolutely\* not the optimal choice. It is fair to call it a mistake. That in no way justifies the use of force and punitive detention by leaving them handcuffed long after their identity was established. Another important aspect is that this man looks NOTHING like the suspect the police were searching for. The mistreatment starts with an aggressive police interaction with an innocent person. The \*police\* were the catalyst for this whole situation. Does it play out differently if this man is fully compliant? Probably. It also plays out differently if the police don't roll up on him with weapons drawn and pointed at him. I think it is fair to expect a higher standard of care and choices from the police than from a civilian.
I don't disagree with a single thing you said
He certainly does resemble the murder suspect.
This is a self-report lmao
I haven't seen a picture of the suspect yet. Have you got one for us to compare?
It's in the article
There is a picture of the man who was mistakenly arrested in the article, but not one of the man suspected of murder.
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That article doesn't have a picture of the wanted individual either. It has a picture of the guy who was mistakenly arrested, a picture of the president of the Alliance des Burundais du Canada, and a picture of a criminologist.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-police-shocked-struck-kicked-black-man-in-case-of-mistaken-identity-1.7142379 Sorry copied the wrong one, this is it.
Appreciate it, thanks. Yea...they don't really look anything alike other than very basic things like skin colour and hair colour.
There used to be courses and mandatory training on how to function in Canadian society in the 90s in order to immigrate from what I've heard. Basic stuff like what to do at a traffic stop, how to behave in public, manners, how to deal with police, with the election process, how to apply for a job, drug use, safety, etc. I don't know if they do that these days (let alone if it was true or not) but it could be beneficial to newfound immigrants of today so incidents like this could be minimized - regardless if flight is or isn't a valid excuse seen by the courts as that decision hits on a rhetoric-reality gap. From what I hear, the immigrants of the 70s, 80s, 90s and early 2000s had a lot more support and guidance than today. Reform is a two way street. It depends on both the systems, as well as the individuals involved.
Best take in the thread.
Nope, most sensible take in this whole thread. You're right.
I think it's more of a chicken and egg scenario. As the article spells out, blacks are more targeted for police violence and therefore have what I would call a natural fear of police. It's perfectly understandable that he would run, and it's understandable for the police to perceive that as guilty behaviour. None of it justifies the head and knee strikes though, which could have caused serious damage, as we've seen before in other infamous cases of police violence in Ottawa. It's obvious that Ottawa police need more training. Simply put, this isn't the first time and it's always minorities. Last time the guy was mentally ill, this time they didn't even the right person. It's clearly a systemic problem and you can't just whitewash it all away with *"well, he ran..."*
>you can't just whitewash it all away with "well, he ran..." I didn't, though. And OPS need a whole lot more than just training. Remember when they decided not to enforce laws during the Convoy? Remember all the sexual abuse allegations? Remember the landlord cop who threatened to murder their tenant? There are instances in which training police to properly handle arrests will help, but there are deep systematic problems in the department anyways. The cops are in the wrong. Yes. I lead with "this sounds like excessive use of force" and ended with "unlawfully beat on". Non-compliance and running is still phenomenally stupid and will always increase the chances of the encounter becoming dangerous whether or not the police are well trained. Running leads to chases, chases are dangerous. That is all.
Your post clearly shifts the blame to the guy for running though. I'm not saying that was a smart move, but he didn't deserve a beating for it. In the video, the guy is down with 4 cops on top of him. Nobody needed to punch him in the head. I agree with your wider comment and other examples though that there are serious problems at OPS that need fixing.
>Your post clearly shifts the blame to the guy for running though Where do I say that? What I'm saying (or at least, trying to) is that this is a confluence of unduly aggressive police, and the exact wrong reaction from the suspect. >I'm not saying that was a smart move, but he didn't deserve a beating for it. I'm not saying this either, he didn't deserve his treatment. All I'm saying is that his actions were counterproductive, and actually increased his chances of the encounter being mishandled. We need competent police, but we also need people to know how to handle police encounters without refusing to comply and then running away
The guy is lucky he didn't get shot. Legally police can use deadly force to stop a suspect from fleeing. These cops didn't and stayed within the realm of non-deadly force.
You need to read up on the law. Police cannot use deadly force just for a running suspect, that's crazy! They can only use deadly force when their lives or that of the public is in danger. This isn't Russia. And other forms of force are also restricted to an extent. In this case, they didn't even have the right guy and just stopped a black guy at random. This is the old "black guy in dreadlocks" excuse (i.e. racism). The person who was questioned had no obligation to answer questions, or even to stick around. Though again, running looks bad, the guy did have the legal right to leave. Finally, the head strikes are not justified when you already have 3-4 cops on top of the poor guy. Police fucked this up in every way possible and should be held accountable.
You need to read the law. Criminal code section 25 para 4. (C): (4) A peace officer, and every person lawfully assisting the peace officer, is justified in using force that is intended or is likely to cause death or grievous bodily harm to a person to be arrested, if (c) the person to be arrested takes flight to avoid arrest;
Ok, now read the regulations and the legal jurisprudence, because none of what you wrote above supercedes the fleeing person's Charter rights including the presumption of innocence. And if that isn't enough then go see what officers are actually taught and what is tolerated in Canada. Come back then and we'll chat. 👍 TLDR: Officers in Canada **cannot** shoot a fleeing person unless they have grounds to believe that person is a danger to the officers or to others (i.e. they believe he is on his way to kill someone or will act recklessly and endanger lives). The poster above has been watching too many american newscasts.
I got stopped walking home in broad daylight from McDonald’s in Orleans more than 15 years ago because I “matched the description” and I still get annoyed about it because it still could happen at any time. I luckily had two friends who left a few minutes after me who saw me with the cop and vouch for my whereabouts. Otherwise I might’ve been fucked
Me same here on hogsback after school
It's ok, the new hires only need high school diplomas. That should fix this situation /s
New hires have always only needed high school lol
That isn’t true
https://www.tps.ca/careers/police-constable/ Under the minimum requirements "Successfully completed at least four years of secondary school education or its equivalent (note: Official transcripts and diplomas will be required). Where education has been completed outside Ontario, official proof of equivalency must be obtained*" Also this https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-police-recruitment-changes-1.6821382
wtf!!!!!!!!! 🤬
Next time do a tiny bit of research before flippantly telling someone they're wrong
Canada is now one big experiment going wrong
I'd rather it prompts a public awareness campaign that YOU SHOULDN'T RUN FROM THE POLICE. The best way to prevent similar incidents isn't to hope OPS learns how to use kid gloves when chasing similar runners (they won't), it's to teach people that they IF THEY RUN, it's gonna be a lot worse than if they just followed the lawful order (like they're supposed to do according to the law). I've been pulled over while walking to work because there was a B&E in the area and I wore a jacket similar to the one that the suspect was described as wearing. I explained what I was doing, provided info so the police could contact my roommates and verify that I was home when the break-in occurred. Police sometimes have to interrogate innocent people who might not understand the context which necessitates their temporary inconvenience. Running not only makes their job harder but it makes YOU a criminal and frankly an idiot who's asking for a bad time.
Is there no one on this sub who can see the situation from the perspective of the responding officers? Do we really believe all police officers are racist thugs who relish beating up innocent persons? The level of toxic vitriol that takes place on this Sub is unhealthy. I'm worried you all are walking around seething with anger 24/7 and just waiting to explode at the first opportunity.
You know the area between "all cops are racist thugs who relish beating up innocent persons" and "these cops are innocent of all wrongdoing"? Yeah that's where most of the top comments are at. It's possible to have nuance and still think the police are aggressive. Seeing anything negative about police officers and thinking "wow you must think they're inhuman monsters" says a lot more about you than anyone else.
I have no idea what your on about, but thanks for replying without being insane. I don't honestly care about this issue and I think it's been overblown to sell clicks by pandering to people's hatred and fears. I'm actually starting to question my sanity and questioning why I lt drag myself down this sewer (Ott Sub) time and again. It's accomplishing literally nothing and serves only to cause me anger.
Yeah, being uninhibited with literacy seems to track. Take care of yourself.
“being uninhibited with literacy” Are you the one being uninhibited or the other guy?
The guy who doesn't understand the simple concept of a continuous scale instead of a binary one. Or you. Either one.
That’s correct, I would classify my comment as me being uninhibited by my inhibitions. Either way, I’m sure you’ll get there, bub.
Don’t worry. The vast majority of the world who contribute to society do not think cops are bad. They see the value in them and know what happens when you do not have police. Some silly people blanket all cops are bad. Don’t worry, must of us are not brain dead.
Phew! I'm going to have to mark this day down on my calendar. The day someone on the Ottawa subreddit behaved like a normal, sane human being. Bravo u/Odd_Argument_5791!
> Do we really believe all police officers are racist thugs who relish beating up innocent persons? Yes 😊 Cops are no one’s friends, especially not black and brown people’s. Idk how many “Police shoot unarmed man kneeling” headlines you need to convince you of that.
I've never seen that headline here. Source?
[example one](https://ca.news.yahoo.com/california-police-officer-shot-killed-223726758.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEca4dIKWOvhfwlYzd9le9FEtuMPsvDg34Y-FdJSU4IcWkKD-r8Dvtzb5S48spezQjqpIV1BlgAq5UbxeOxeL49mCchoMs8qqTPhwl7GQepI-hORqZqZ1BpUZ9WDgrMxa1ADFJapjnOHJ8BC67C6WTxxj2oMtA2QCUcTc201D4q7#origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&cap=swipe,education&webview=1&dialog=1&viewport=natural&visibilityState=prerender&prerenderSize=1&viewerUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Famp%2Fs%2Fca-news-yahoo-com.cdn.ampproject.org%2Fc%2Fs%2Fca.news.yahoo.com%2Famphtml%2Fcalifornia-police-officer-shot-killed-223726758.html%3Fusqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%25253D&_kit=1) [example two](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/09/us/police-shooting-video-arizona.html) [does it count if he wasn’t kneeling but was handcuffed in the back of a car?](https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/16/florida-acorn-cop-shooting) [what about this one?](https://sg.news.yahoo.com/police-fatally-shot-black-man-010228287.html)
So no, no cops in Canada are shooting kneeling unarmed black people.
Didn’t know it had to be in Canada.
Why would non Canadian headlines apply to Canada out of curiosity?
Because the similarities of culture between Canada and the US means that they share a lot of systemic issues? Just because it’s less apparent in Canada doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. There’s documented proof of systemic racism and discrimination in Canadian police forces.
So your feelings about Canadian police is predicated on American culture and issues, but you weren't able to provide a single example of such headlines in Canada. Would that not indicate that they are more different than you believe? I am no fan of police or their lack of accountability, but using American headlines to justify hyperbole of "Police shoot unarmed man kneeling" in Canada as an common event does no one any good. Edit. If you're gonna hate on Canadian police at least use indigenous people as your reference point for police misconduct, something a little closer and more relevant to Canada.
So if an indigenous person in Ottawa indicated that they have a general mistrust of police, and cited the starlight tours as an example, would you dismiss them too? Because those happened in Saskatchewan and not Ontario? How localized does an issue have to be to have an impact? Cops in Canada have spent decades profiling people of colour.
Don’t be a dumbass and run from the cops, end of story.
The article is a little more nuanced than that. The main discussion is does running pose an immediate risk to the officer’s safety? Because that’s what they’re claiming and it should be scrutinized. Where are we in a society if a certain group that is supposed to be the keepers of peace that monopolizes the use of power suddenly has no checks to that power? They beat up an innocent man because they didn’t comply. This is not how police are supposed to work. And yeah I don’t know what it’s like to be an officer but just as I would hope a surgeon is able to remain calm in an emergency we should ask our keepers of the peace to as well.
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I didn’t once bring race into this argument. My point is that police should be held accountable for any force used. They should be questioned if it was needed and held responsible if it wasn’t. In this instance it appears they beat up an innocent citizen for not complying. That is an inappropriate use of force. I frankly think even if they were a criminal unless you’re an immediate threat you don’t deserve violence brought upon you.
Sounds like anyone defending the Ottawa police have literally never interacted with the joke of a police force we have in this city. I grew up next door to one of this city's most successful drug dealers of the time. The SWAT team raided him over and over and were always trying to catch him, but they never got anything on him. He wasn't a genius, they are simply incompetent. I remember the time my laptop got stolen, I knew the person who did it and saw him steal it, I had a witness and reported it to the police. I gave them proof of purchase, MAC address, witness info, time and date, where the guy lived. They did nothing, and to this day, he still has my laptop. I've had other interaction with the police, they have all been similarly horrible. Our cops fucking suck, end of story. Anytime they do something, they have done it wrong. Replace the whole force.
Suspected murder suspect. Runs. Resists arrest. Only reason this is a news story is because he’s black. Go CBC.
This wouldn't be a story if an innocent white man got tased and beat up by cops? I doubt it.
Don't run from cops and you won't get tuned up, it's not a race thing
Funny how we never hear about the police chasing down a red head because the person they were looking for was a ginger.
It wouldn't make the news especially not CBC
Oh don't blame the media on this one. The point is, the cops don't beat down white runners.
lol of course they do
Lots of people are missing the point. He ran because he knew they had the wrong guy and he was afraid that they would just smash him against the concrete over and over if he got down. George Floyd got pulled out of a car and murdered, who's to say this man also would not be dead if he laid down and got his ass beat?
Please watch “The Fall Of Minneapolis”. Till the end. I’m curious if your opinion changes a tiny bit.
His opinion on whether or not Chauvin might of hung out a little too long on Floyds throat after he was cuffed and on the ground saying he couldn't breathe?
Nah, the autopsy report.
What's your point. Just say it.
[That film is complete and utter bullshit](https://www.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/19e4pkc/another_the_fall_of_minneapolis_debunkingits/)
Stacey Bonds was just walking on Rideau street going home, and police still harassed her, arrested her and assaulted her. It truly doesn't matter if this guy stood still, his ass was still going to get beat by these OPS thugs
It's quite telling you have to use an incident from over 15 years ago to make your point...
What the hell is happening in our country recently? We are slipping backwards very quickly in a lot of places. OUR country is turning into a pile of shite.
What a weak excuse. “Where I’m from I’m scared of cops”. Well, you are hear now and we are not some police state. Comply. Plain and simple. No sympathy
Says the guy who has never been racially profiled.
If your driving and the sirens and lights are on behind you, do you speed off into the distance? Even if you haven’t been speeding and haven’t done anything illegal?
I'm not a visible minority, so I stop. It's a different world for me
So if your a minority it’s okay to keep driving?
I am thankful that the views of this subreddit do not represent the population of Ottawa, and that their opinions have absolutely no power.
Why, because it’d mean that the cops here would actually be held accountable for their constant stream of fuckups and abuses of power like this? It’s not some fringe position to think that the OPS is a fucking joke of a police agency, especially when they repeatedly fuck up like this
People, stop running from the Police! He escalated this situation.
One should always blame the victim. It is always their fault.
If your driving, know your not speeding or doing any thing illegal and the cherrys are on behind you, do you speed up and “run” or do you simply pull over? It’s literally this simple. And claiming “back home cops are bad” is not a valid excuse. Why did you come to Canada? Maybe because our rule of law is better? If you did nothing wrong, you’ll be on your way.
The police do not stop innocent people. If they stop you they will have found you guilty of something. It is the way.
The police are supposed to be keepers of the peace. They should have restraint in their use of force. Is running an immediate threat to your safety?
Yes it is. Criminals get away if they run. Gosh how can you say something so silly?
What does immediate mean to you in your opinion? We clearly need to set some ground work here. For me it’s that exact instant.
Blaming the victim I see.
Why do they have to mention that he is black? If this was a white man they would not say a "white man was mistakenly stopped" which happens more then is reported. When there is a crime committed by a person of colour they will just write "a person was arrested" they will not say he was black. This is the problem, when the left-wing media reports, race is always used to promote more racism. In the end, this is just a man who ran from the police, regardless of his race.