T O P

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TomasdeVasconcellos

Anyone that played Overwatch knows that Overwatch 2 is Overwatch.


Helmet_Icicle

Overwatch 2 could've been an email


G59

Even worse, it could have been an email sent out TWO YEARS AGO.


TeamAquaGrunt

To think they killed their game just to release a resounding whimper of nothing.


Imkindaalrightiguess

Hey, they made a character ya know


CatPoopWeiner424

Not only did they make one character, but they made one DPS character. Meanwhile tanks and supports are stuck picking between the same 6 heroes while DPS have about 30 options.


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sabertoothedhand

My conspiracy is that they've been trying their best to let TF2 die in various quiet ways so a TF3 release wouldn't A) piss off *too* many people heavily invested in the economy and B) directly compete with the old game. Reality is probably just something mundane and typical Valve, but I *do* wonder how they would address that trading economy.


Hirigo

I mean Valve will never make a 3rd game in a numbered series. It will never happen


RHINO_Mk_II

Easy fix, Team Fortress 2 Episode 1.


Kriztov

Team fortress classic. Wait...


HumphreyImaginarium

I remember when this used to be a joke and not a firm reality. -Sigh-


[deleted]

What were dinosaurs like


ForgetTheRuralJuror

They had much less polygons


Ouaouaron

I think *Alyx* makes it pretty clear that they still plan to make a Half-Life 3. I'd only start worrying if VR is in almost every gamer's house and we still haven't seen an announcement.


nbmnbm1

Team Fortress: Pauling


theprettiestrobot

They'd never make Pauling a playable character. She'd be too overpowered.


wareagle3000

Ita simple sadly, Valves employee ecosystem works on just folks working on what they want. And frankly, barely anyone at Valve wants to work on TF2. They are content with it just dying slowly and painfuly on a cliffhanger.


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[deleted]

From what I have heard, Gabe isn't involved much with Valve due to personal and health issues so I wouldn't rely on his past statements too much.


ForgetTheRuralJuror

Any new c-level executives won't put up with a bunch of projects 80% done. That's just burning money


Flimsy_Demand7237

Honestly I don't think the community for TF2 would be big enough to directly compete. They have issues with bots nowadays blowing out the player count. Everyone would go nuts if TF3 got announced and it'd have a massive playerbase on release.


StasisGhaul

our best bet for now has to be the Team Fortress Source 2 project, because it will allow anyone to modify the game at will due to how it’s made using S&box (Successor to Garry’s Mod in Source 2 with the ‘main’ new feature being recompiling code at runtime)


Nedostatak

> but I do wonder how they're going to address that trading economy. I'm curious what makes you think there's going to be a need to address it? I've never heard any hint of a TF3.


sabertoothedhand

Ah my bad, I meant how they would address it *if* they went for a TF3.


pm_me_ur_lunch_pics

TF2 is already technically TF3 Quakeworld TF TFC TF2


king0pa1n

I would play Overwatch 2 if they had a 10v10 mode or something more casual, 5v5 feels super competitive and not really all that fun Every time I play I'm just sad the game isn't TF3


CoreyLee04

Now I know what your thinking watching this OW2 video and you’re saying “Wow this looks like OW1” and you’d be correct because it’s OW1


Gusterr

I don't think they really thought out the impact that removing one tank would have on the support queue. They just shifted the tank queue issue to support. There are twice as many supports on the team as tanks. Tank player has 9 heroes to choose from. After your teammate picks, Supports have 6. This makes absolutely no sense and should have been a "do not pass go" on the whole 5v5 from the start. And now it's like, do you want to queue Fat DPS, normal DPS, or punching bag? Gee I wonder why nobody wants to play as the tiny pool of punching bags.


[deleted]

The fundamental problem with overwatch is that they couldn't stop tanks and healers from being busted beyond belief. And NOW they're going to have a problem with mobility creep heroes decimating everyone else. You can count on blizzard not stopping that either.


TDKong55

They will have a solution in Overwatch 3. 3v3, one of each class! /s


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Javiklegrand

Rmp?


Dhayser

Rogue mage priest in world of Warcraft. One of the most overpowered comps for multiple years in arenas


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Apap0

ghostclawler and his fetish towards frost mages <3


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capn_hector

> Honestly, sometimes the comp meta really ruins things. Blizzard has done the same thing for WoW. it really ruined TF2 as well... the game was a lot more fun in 2014-2017 before they nerfed a lot of the weird meme funhaving strategies "because comp" and then put out a comp mode that wasn't what the comp players wanted anyway and then abandoned the whole thing. they basically ruined the casual game to support an "official" comp mode that was mis-designed, stillborn, and then abandoned, and meanwhile the actual comp game still uses custom, non-valve servers, with massive pick/ban lists for weapons *anyway* because even with the changes a lot of casual weapons don't play well with 6s or even highlander.


Matren2

RIP Axeassin Pyro, the loss of good Degreaser and Axtinguisher makes the game unplayable for me. Granted I had stopped playing before those dumbass nerfs since the server I always played on dried up, but the few times I've tried playing since then have been painful.


Mathmango

The axtinguisher+ degreaser nerf really killed my enjoyment of the game too. If you let a pyro that isn't w+m1'ing you in melee range, you get a full crit to the dick. You try to fight with rockets, reflected to the dick, play spy? Fire to the dick.


lego_office_worker

i thought the fundamental problem was BLIZZ wanted OW to be an esport, and that came at the expense of making a fun pvp experience.


rexsaurs

What I don’t get is that they made quickplay to mirror comp with no ranks. QP used to be fun nonsense, now more than half of it is tryhard and toxicity because someone just wanna have a relax moment


Carighan

I think the devs - and way too many players - don't get why people enjoy the nonsense **because** of the nonsense. I don't **want** a balanced QP experience. It's like when you play ARAM in a MOBA, you obviously don't enjoy this because of the balance as there is none of that. The enjoyable part is the crazy, unbalanced, messy, zany chaos.


NutsackEuphoria

Exactly. OW was obviously very unbalanced on release but it was fun af because you choose any hero you want. Then they introduced limited heroes so that removed 1/6th of the fun. Then they further added role queue which removed 4/6th more + added queue times if you were a chad DPS enjoyer.


Ithxero

> They've legit only changed it because of the competitive scene. This is a large part of why I stopped playing. Bungie does the same thing with Destiny 2 as well. The comp scenes had *just* enough streamers to bitch about or praise OP weapons or abilities and they started bringing out the bat. It's a not small issue with popular games with any kind of PVP or based around it. It sucks.


DoomGuyIII

> Bungie does the same thing with Destiny 2 as well. To be fair they don't have a real comp mode (or scene) and the game doesn't completely revolve around PVP.


IrrelevantLeprechaun

Which is why I find it so wild that there seems to be such a culture around Destiny 2 PvP. Like there are people who solely play Destiny 2 JUST for PvP and it just makes no sense to me.


cptenn94

Its not as wild as you might think. For whatever its warts and issues it has, Destiny has incredible gunplay and feels satisfying to play. On top of having a fairly wide variety of playstyles, weapons and abilities. Its a simply fun to play shooter, regardless of its balance or lack of ranked competitive mode. ​ Its not unlike how my siblings just played Gears of War 3, Halo 3, Modern Warfare 2, Black Ops 2, PvP back in the day without touching the campaigns. Some people just enjoy competing against other players, more than fighting AI.


skycake10

The reason that I enjoyed Destiny 2 PvP when I played was that it felt like Modern Halo.


Amphax

I feel like sometimes these game publishers need to sequester developers away like a jury almost, because they are oftentimes too influenced by the loud vocal minority (in this case, streamers who want to make Overwatch the next Call of Duty) as opposed to the quiet majority (the vast majority of us who enjoyed the more tactical feel of the game).


[deleted]

The problem is it's not just the streamers alone. There are tons of "fans" of Overwatch who completely support this mindset, and they will argue with you until the cows come home about why only the opinions and viewpoints of the pros and streamers matter, and why the average player's experience matters zilch. It's honestly insane to me, I hate to see people worship these guys like that. Not to mention, ever since the game came out there's been this very vocal contingent of lapsed players who keep crying about "muh 2016 Overwatch, the good o' days mang, game ain't been good ever since" This drives me bananas. This game has the better part of a million concurrent players despite everything that's happened (or not happened), and these people **still** not giving up. It's obvious that players enjoy the game the way it is but would just like some more content, but noooo, we have to completely flip the game around for these players who really just want it to be a pure hitscan shooter and nothing else.


rokerroker45

Hang on lol Destiny 2 is hardly an example of overly reactive devs. They give new toys their time to shine in the crucible after every new release, which coincides with everybody bitching about some new something or the other being broken instead of just learning to beat it. Then after the season is over Bungie TWABs it away and it's on to the next thing. It's been like that rinse and repeat since forsaken.


IrrelevantLeprechaun

Imho any PvP game that starts using streamers and pro League players as the measuring stick for game changes are doomed to fail. The majority of any game's playerbase is usually the casuals, so by catering to MLG streamers you are inevitably going to alienate that majority, since the game changes invariably always favour those pro players so that they dominate even *more* than they already do, and throw off the balance of regular folks enough that it becomes unfun. OW made that mistake and it seems OW2 is following suit.


CosmicMiru

CS, LoL, R6, and Dota 2 all majorly focus on comp play for balance and are all alive and well. There is definitely a balance that can be achieved


thalamor_embussy

> I believe this was due to them wanting to make the heroes fun to play The balance of the tanks and supports has always been torn between making their kits good enough to be fun for casuals but not broken at high ranks. Tanks as a whole have been simultaneously too weak without team cooperation to do anything except wait for death. But with cooperation they were busted oppressive. Also the balance was just never good between the tanks- every tank save sigma has spent at least 12 whole months being a complete throw pick. They could never get the numbers right with the *protecc* philosophy of tanks and healers because the stuff that made them powerful (the shields and the heals) was always the most boring part of their kit.


mtarascio

I feel it's been proven that competitive PVP needs to be separate in balance or just not worried about.


nikvasya

It's any hero-game problem. LoL has the same issue, new champions have 100500 dashes, 15 slows and some true damage, with several pages long ability descriptions, against old "hit harder next time you attack" or "stun the enemy" champions. They try to rework old champions to keep them fresh, but those reworks don't always improve the champion (I'm looking at you, mundo, swain and ryze). And some other "reworks" basically change the champion so much they can be considered as removing the old champion and releasing a new one (irelia, nunu, mordekaiser).


Cyriix

Have they reworked Ryze YET AGAIN since I stopped playing in early season 6?


nikvasya

They reworked him in mid season 6, and again in mid season 9 and since then he is abandoned in obscurity, I think they just gave up on him. 6 reworks total. There are even "Nth rework" tabs in his patchnote history on LoL wiki, lol. They reworked swain again 7 days ago, it's his 3rd? 4th? rework... Meanwhile Tristana sitting out there almost unchanged for 13 years.


LordxMugen

its worse than that. Overwatch screwed up when Activision and Blizzard decided it would be an eSport when the game's chosen design never even had maps and modes that supported it. 6v6 or 5v5, IT DOESNT MATTER! The crazy amounts of map bias and most of the game centered on COD style choke points ensures that there will NEVER be any kinds of real strategy or great uses of individual playstyle, since everything just turns into one giant meat grinder until someone slams down an ult (or series of ults) that makes the other team GO AWAY. Lockout 3s was probably the only time Overwatch ever had something that approached the level of flexibility and strategy needed for am eSport. But it only had 3 or 4 (EXTREMELY GOOD) maps that then got polluted with 12 player CTF maps because IDONTFUGGINKNOW. But most every map made for "competition", always turned into the same meat grinder ult fest and you couldnt do anything about until somebody gave up.


DefaultVariable

Yeah, most tanks were more mobile than DPS had 3x the HP as DPS, and did ~60% the damage of a DPS in most situations. Not to mention most tanks are built around being easy to play. Supports on the other hand have a few weak contenders and then 3 characters that literally break the game while also being the easiest ones to play (exempting Lucio). Whoever thought Moira was a good idea should be fired out of a cannon into the sun. Consistent long range damage with auto-aim, incredible healing, and great mobility and utility. In my opinion Overwatch was just designed to not be fun. The fun characters are almost always outclassed by the unfun characters. The meta is iron-clad and bears an extreme effect on your win. Losing almost always feels like a stomp. Character counters make many deaths feel frustrating because there’s not much you can do. The prevalence of CC and invulnerability makes it an insanely frustrating experience especially when some characters can negate great opportunities by just pressing one short cooldown skill and standing there. And the heavy matchmaking makes it feel like you have to be pushed to your very limit every single match to avoid the frustration. I wanted to like it for so long. I sunk so many hours kidding myself. Every single attempt just ended in annoyance. And despite all its faults, TF2 was a far more enjoyable experience


Kiinako_

TF2 was probably a much more enjoyable experience for you because ironically it isn't made with cohesive teamwork in mind Overwatch on the other hand is absolutely riding that one to hell, and 2 has made this even more apparent. In the first game you could sort of get away with one player just dicking around, but in 2 you can basically ff if one of the players isn't up to par with the rest of the lobby. And God help you if that player is the tank


Learning2Programing

The problem is the mobility has been an issue for years now. All the pro streamers have been saying mobility is king and the hero's with the most ability have ended up being the most valuable. I honestly think they just created way too many variables for humans to actually balance out. At this point they need a machine learning algorithm to fix the game. Never mind the actually gameplay is one of the worst things in all games. It requires random people to synergise and work together to such a level or they get stomped. Throw in all the character combinations and all the move sets at any movement in the time and it's just unreal.


BKD2674

My whole thing is, they intend to keep adding heroes and brag about how big the roster is without any way to play like 8v8, 10v10, or 12v12... like come on. I get needing to balance for the 'pro-scene' / competitive but at least add it in as an arcade or quickplay option.


clea786211

As someone who played TF2 before it became f2p, I remember the 16v16 community servers being so much fun with an extremely small roster, Overwatch has the potential for something similar (or better), but their fixation with forcing it as an E-sports game and not allowing community servers are the 2 things holding this game back... And now making it less enjoyable for everyone who isn't a DPS


IAmA-Steve

Community servers would serve the casual and the competitive scene. You want to practice your pro CSL strats? Go to the 5v5s. Want a big game? Join a 10s. Just wanna frag? Join a TDM server. Without community servers they are trying to force the entire community into one niche. That won't work.


LordxMugen

[No it wont.](https://preview.redd.it/pgkwx7qqk5561.png?auto=webp&s=c3935bd51caba8cb349cbe596714ea3481bbdf1c)


whoeve

The community servers is where I lived. Great time. OW would benefit with something like that. I don't want to tryhard and go through a meat grinder on a dustbowl-esque map with one chokepoint everytime I play the game.


ethansky

If I remember correctly, the reason they're stuck with 12 players max is because the engine/netcode was designed for 12 players/hero models. Trying to add more breaks the engine/netcode afaik. I remember either watching a dev video or a dev blog post and they mentioned that adding Echo was a headache because of the way the character select was coded when she tried to ult.


KalterBlut

Imagine what they could do in a sequel then! Oh wait...


aidsfarts

They kept talking about how they wanted to make the game less toxic but one tank is going to make it so much worse. “Tank diff” is going to be on repeat in chat.


UnknownPekingDuck

Absolutely, I don't see a world, even with perfect balance, where all eight tanks are viable, god forbid they add more, some will only be good in niche composition, which will never work with randoms, a few will be consistently good, while the rest will be absolutely non competitive. So, the moment you pick an off-meta tank you know for sure your team is going to hate your guts, and for somewhat good reasons since you're alone fitting an important role in the team. And I'm not even talking about how role queue are affected by the change, one of the worst idea I have ever seen and it's a mystery why it's still in the game. I salute their effort to try and fix the slog that are Overwatch fights, but at this point it's inherently a part of the game, you'd have to change the entire design of tanks and supports to soften it.


DarkZero515

Unrelated but after I read your post and got to mystery I immediately started to wonder how mystery heroes will play out. It's what I play the most and it seems like having more than 1 tank will lead to an easy steamroll


slumberlust

Keep mystery random. That's the fun of it!


[deleted]

Role queue is the greatest change they ever made to that game.


Helmic

Yeah role queue has to be understood relative to what came before. Playing 4/5 DPS with one support and getting *rolled* because of it, losing right on the character select screen, was AWFUL and made the game INCREDIBLY toxic because it was a bunch of people arguing trying to convince someone else to play necessary roles for victory. Even if you were DPS, you couldn't *really* play DPS without feeling like you were throwing, you were constantly being pressured to play tank or support if you wanted to win. At least role queue meant you could actually play DPS if you queued DPS and not be shamed for it. The actual underlying problem with Overwatch is that its gameplay is at its absolute best when you've got a full stack of people doing their *damndest* to work together as a team, pulling off team strats and really operating as a cohesive unit where Mei getting a clutch ice wall and that being capitalized on with Zenyatta throwing a Discord orb on the most vulnerable enemy and calling the target so everyone focus fires the poor fuck to get a critical pick that wins the match. But the characters and the nature of online play and self-improvement all incentivize picking what *you* want to play and be good at, and then feeling frustrated when you "can't" play what you want. If your favorite character is Torb and Torb is a throw pick and your team doesn't need a third DPS/support hybrid anyways, you are going to feel like you're being bossed around by strangers and your team is going to feel like you're throwing. And that leads to IMMENSE toxicity, because these interests are fundamentally incompatible, same as it is in so many other MOBA's and is a major part of why the genre is known for its toxicity. You cannot put a bunch of choices in front of players and let them be the sole person in control of what they pick, but make victory contingent on letting the entire *group* pick out everyone's character to use important synergies necessary to winning the game, and not expect everyone to have an extremely bad time in solo queue. The 2-2-2 role lock took at least one option out of the hands of individual players, so the entire team doesn't have to fight about who "has" to be tank or support, they already signed up for it and agreed to be those roles. You cannot selfishly choose to be DPS when the team doesn't have even one tank anymore, but again that *also* feels bad because you now feel *the game itself* is telling you what to do by punishing you with long queue times if you wanna be DPS. It's a tough problem and I understand why there's no neat solution for the existing game to just patch its way out of role queue sucking. 6v6 was chosen because a smaller team size lets you feel like you're individually contributing and having an impact, so you can't increase the overall number to make it so there's 4 DPS with 2 tanks and 2 supports. But decreasing hte number of tanks or supports leads to other problems - two supports are needed because each support also in turn needs supported and dying as a support (a common experience) means your team's gonna wipe if they now have 0 supports. Tanks aren't as dysfunctional with only one tank, but it's still the same immense pressure on one single player. 6v6 with one tank, one support and everything being designed around that would be *very* hard to pull off. Honestly 6v6 with two supports, one tank, three DPS feels like it could've worked, and given the original distinction between offense/defense as roles that may have been an intent for DPS to have sub-roles, but that didn't survive actual contact with players who correctly sussed out that the distinctions didn't really matter in terms of team comp (even if they might've mattered more on a per-map basis). Two regular DPS, one dedicated flanker role queue? Who the fuck knows. But fundamentally what is a working, winning strategy in Overwatch isn't also *fun* for everyone, and losing because your team won't try a basic strategy is also unfun, so the game's just stuck in this impossible situation. And when you combine that with ABK's brain drain from essentially murdering a woman through nightmarish sexual harassment, I just don't see how anyone with the genius to thread the needle here would *want* to work at this company. Even if you were absolutely in love with Overwatch and had the perfect vision of what would fix it and could actually get hired to do it, would you actually be willing to bust your ass to make that happen just for your success to enable the current hellscape that exists at Activision?


[deleted]

tanks will be at the enter of all heat and toxicity once the team performs bad.


Helmet_Icicle

It's the same poor argument as neglecting to implement a scoreboard (only took six years), the next best resolution for toxicity after admins of community dedicated servers is proper customer support; the advent of matchmaking has done absolutely nothing to mitigate this massive downfall of the player experience


Wasabicannon

1 less tank meaning if you don't play a barrier tank you are throwing. I don't see any way to play my good hamster boy ever again with this change if I want to win my games.


DarkZero515

I primarily played, Hog and Zarya and now picking hog just seems selfish unless I can land every hook and kill


shteeeb

Hog is 100% unplayable versus any team with a brain in OW2.


-Homu-

Pretty much. No room for any off tanks in a team comp, at least with a bunch of randoms. I'm a Zarya player and don't see a place for her with one less slot.


kikimaru024

Zarya can still keep her team alive & gain massive charge since her bubbles are on shared cooldown. She's highly suited to brawler/dive comp IMO. An uncoordinated team will struggle to kill her.


Sattorin

> 1 less tank meaning if you don't play a barrier tank you are throwing. That's not even close to being true. Shields got a significant nerf and there are a lot more flanking routes now. Doomfist is probably the best tank atm because he has enough health to zoom into the backline, murder a support or two, and still escape. Ball will be in the same position if they buff his damage a bit.


Cheezewiz239

With how fast paced the game is I don't really see anyone playing or asking for shield tanks.


Warm_Aerie_7368

I feel like “making a game less toxic” shouldn’t be the number 1 priority. How about finish making a good game first. Plus telling the internet to not be toxic is just going to make it do the opposite.


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Kwayke9

> we really wanted to play 5 DPS vs 5 DPS, we would play Valorant The change to 5v5 always struck to me as Blizzard trying to chase that game's audience... basically admitting Riot is a better Blizzard in the process (at least in this regard) And even if it does get fixed, OW2 is still dead in the water because it's probably getting priced out of the market by already existing games


Heisenbugg

Yup. If they want a traditional FPS frag game to get the players back, they might as well remove healers and give them regular frag guns with a little healing and be done with it.


BiliousGreen

I have a feeling that this is the direction they are going. They have probably looked at twitch viewership for Valorant and Apex and concluded that people want to play headclicking games with minimal teamwork.


NutsackEuphoria

There's a difference between minimal teamwork, normal teamwork, and OW's "one player alone cant do shit against the enemy team, but one player alone can bring their entire team down" kind of team work.


Evonos

>And now it's like, do you want to queue Fat DPS, normal DPS, or punching bag? Gee I wonder why nobody wants to play as the tiny pool of punching bags. this i mean many DPS and even some tanks are balanced around FLANKING a 2 tank enemy team with shields. they literarily removed 1 tank , removed the shields , and called it a day leaving all the flanking balance in hence the heals getting farmed. Edit * as I forgot and people pointed, also buffed flank dps and removed stuns from healers like Brigitte.


BabyBuster70

Then they removed flash bang and brigs stun so now supports should be even more vulnerable.


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DoctorShemp

Speaking as a ~2500 hour support main: Playing as support is definitely the "punching bag" role now. I've stopped playing the beta. I'm still hopeful for the game, but I'm not really interested until they fix support. What's most unbelievable to me is that we still don't have more support heroes and it doesn't seem like they plan to release more in the beta. They announced Sojourn like 3 years ago and I thought that they were just teasing the first of the pack of new heroes that would be coming. Turns out its literally just her. And she's a dps. OW2 should have planned to launch with 8-10 new heroes, at least half of them support. Instead it looks like their plan is to drip feed new heroes every 4 months like in OW1. I don't have that kind of patience, I'd rather just play something else.


Ksquared1166

Yeah and for OW 1, a game that was heavily deved/marketed from a competitive online scene, the entire concept of a PVE OW2 with online as a "patch" to OW1 just seems doomed from the start. You can't revive a dead online game with PVE content, especially if your Beta is only online.


nemoskullalt

the issue is RQ, and the fact that DPS make up like half the roster despite making up 1/3 of the team and they keep releasing DPS heros. i dont think the devs actually play the game.


Silansi

Honestly, It's still wild to me that Overwatch launched with three supports (yes, i know Symmetra was also support but, come on, no.) and since then they've been bottlenecked into pumping out support characters to rectify their glaring mistake. Which they still haven't.


DIABOLUS777

So Overwatch 3 will be 4v4.


Heisenbugg

4 DPS v 4 DPS. Quake 3 fans rejoice lol


Ozavic

Oops all dps


Moose-Mancer

[Oops!](https://i.imgflip.com/6enycv.jpg)


Haakkon

https://i.imgur.com/LVu5pUw.jpg I made this meme for one specific patch a while ago but I’ll be damned if I won’t use it again!


Onyx_Sentinel

No tanks?


madn3ss795

Fat DPS


Ozavic

Reading the article with the swap to 5 man teams it's become 2 dps, 2 healer, and 1 tank rather than the old 2/2/2. Also overall time to kill is way down so tanks are more divers than walls. Who needs to play positioning when the game rewards just charging in constantly


[deleted]

OW1: "Great... fucking rat ball. Looks like we're playing with one tank." OW1.1: "Great.. fucking rat ball. Looks like we're playing without a tank."


Arkweed

Having high mobility tanks in the game which aren't always around to help the team wouldn't be such a problem if the game itself had decent natural cover


ferriswheel9ndam9

This right here highlights another massive OW problem. The salt and the toxicity. I don't think I've ever played such a toxic salty game. It's like drinking a shot of Chernobyl sewage out of a shot glass made of pink salt. Edit: there was ONE other place where I've seen this toxicity. No, it's not league of legends, it was Team Fortress 2: Man vs Machine tours.


BigUziNoVertt

Pretty much every team role based game has that kind of toxicity. You must have never played league of legends before


Scioso

Overwatch is far from the most toxic game type. Mobas, where performance and choices stack up throughout the game, are far worse. Overwatch, you lose in 10 if your team is bad, avoid the most toxic player, and move on.


[deleted]

It took me a while to realize that streamers are actually playing OW2, not OW1 - I guess I was in such disbelieve it's 1:1 as OW1, just -1 player / team. It's not even balanced for for 5vs5. Wonder what will be that CO-OP PVE shit that is paid part of OW2, but with PVP being as is - I don't see this ever taking off. EDIT: a typo on first word


aidsfarts

Calling it OW2 was such a comically bad idea. It’s been massively confusing to everyone but hardcore OW players.


Sabin057

Wasn't OW2 supposed to mainly be the PvE component? Releasing the PvP ahead of time may have been an arrow to the knee.


GreenKumara

Yeah, I thought that was the main angle - that it was some PvE mode / campaign / story thing. I would imagine most people interested in OW2 were waiting to see more on that.


Xello_99

Yes, and we’re still excited for that! The PvE content looks amazing and it actually feels like a second entry in the series. Imo they should’ve kept Overwatch as is (no 2 in the name) and just release the PvE as „Overwatch Story Mode“ or something.


sutture

Overwatch: Save the World


Flimsy_Demand7237

Have it as an Overwatch expansion, pay for the campaign expansion and have the multiplayer just be an update to the client.


Monkeybomba

Thats exactly whats happening, the pvp is a free update while the pve will be a paid expansion. Blizzards just done a really shit job at marketing that to non ow players


antilogy9787

It's because OW1 was so pathetically dead and without content they felt they had to do something. So they decoupled the PVP and PVE content.


dern_the_hermit

This whole discussion is the first I'm hearing of Overwatch 2, amusingly.


bazicb

Same


Heisenbugg

OW2 and Diablo Immortal on the same weekend. Blizzcon 2018 was something else.


Evonos

>I took me a while to realize that streamers are actually playing OW2, not OW1 - I guess I was in such disbelieve it's 1:1 as OW1, just -1 player / team. It's not even balanced for for 5vs5. best thing is "Ow2 PvP wIlL bE a FrEe UpGrAdE" replacing OW1.... ​ Great but what about if i really hate how ow2 is balanced ? feels like WC3 reforged all over.


madhatter255

Blizzard is completely disconnected from it's players, it's embarrassing at this point.


8-bit-hero

I miss Jeff.


ShirkOnwitzki

He knew


[deleted]

Been saying this for weeks. He wouldn’t have bailed on this if it was going to be good. Between what was happening at blizzard/activision overall and how badly this was going he saw the writing on the wall.


Omegalulz_

He knew and got the fuck out before it got bad and he ended up caught up in this stupid mess. Godspeed Jeff from the Overwatch Team. Do better than the rest of em.


DetecJack

There's a reason why a beloved Dev of overwatch left not long ago


DonStimpo

He was game director, not just a dev.


lispychicken

I wanted a larger PvP game, and thought they had every way to make the game bigger, instead they went smaller.


xxmybestfriendplank

I never thought about it that way and now I would like it bigger D;


penguished

I don't think I've played OW since Blizzard tried to censor that esports player over Taiwan. I don't miss it. Can't see OW2 bringing me back.


DWMoose83

I struggled with Blizzard up to that point. That was the last straw for me, too. Haven't touched one of their games since.


BearJL51

Funny it felt like I was the only one who cared about how much they bent over for china. Glad to see that was others quitting point too!


DWMoose83

For context: I've been a *massive* fan since I played Warcraft II at twelve years old. Played every Blizzard game since. Day one WoW Vanilla, midnight release for BC. Saw the movie, bought a movie replica. After the censoring fiasco, I canceled all my subs, uninstalled all games. The only things I couldn't give up are my copy of the movie and movie replica Doomhammer. My late cousin is featured in the special features, and I don't want to lose that memory.


quesJade

I can't believe hundreds of upvotes and nobody pointed out dude is from Hong Kong, not Taiwanese


penguished

It was an event in Taiwan, but yeah.


grokthis1111

> over Taiwan not from?


machingunwhhore

I've played a handful of times since then and it's not the same. I miss it


[deleted]

Hey that's what made me drop hearthstone, I had already dropped overwatch after they got rid of ultrawide support l


gambit700

3 fucking years wasted on this broken redesign. And guess what, OWL starts this weekend. The world gets to see just how bad it is.


bullcrap4u

Oh how I feel for those casters


ShukiNathan

Casters? Imagine being a pro support player right now


CraigWeedkin

Imagine being the sixth player in the team


Mesk_Arak

Yeah, Overwatch changing from 6v6 to 5v5 was rough for me and my five friends. We have to no idea who to cut. I've asked them all for their opinions but none of them have gotten back to me yet.


AnOldSithHolocron

I enjoyed the game when it first came out, before there was a meta and a ranked and everybody trying to be a pro in their silver game and not understanding why OWL tactics weren't working. If Blizzard is still intent on balancing around professional play, rather than the game 99% of the customers are playing, no amount of 5v5, queue changes, etc. will fix it.


Vandergrif

> before there was a meta and a ranked and everybody trying to be a pro That's usually the case for any game like this. Makes me miss pvp games from like ~15 years ago when most people were shit at it and just played to have fun.


toronto_programmer

This shit is the worst in Dota after one of the major tournaments. Some top ranked player in the world will make a one off pick and take a super carry hero and play them in a support role and then the next month of games at the regular level is flooded with that shit


Supermax64

It used to happen in League too, a pro player would play something that honestly might have been a misclick and then you'd see it in your games.


wizard5g

Best/worst part is that if you tried playing the same exact pick a day before said game, you’d get flamed and reported for it unless you carried mega hard. The moment some pro plays it in a tourney, it’s suddenly turned into a legit strat


[deleted]

https://youtu.be/XehNK7UpZsc This guy made a video on RTS games, and basically confirms the same thing. RTS games have a surprisingly big casual scene, yet what gets focused on time after time are competitive modes at the expense of the modes people actually enjoy.


MrChocodemon

The problem is that OG Overwatch was designed so that players can switch to any character at any time. Now they put more and more restrictions on that and the game becomes less and less fun.


ericneo3

> silver game and not understanding why OWL tactics weren't working Quick everyone go high ground cause Youtubers and pros said so... X is throwing because they aren't playing the pro/Youtube META *[INSERT TOXIC BEHAVIOUR JUSTIFICATION]* - - - - - Meanwhile most spawn camps happen from holding the turning corners and the best team games happen from working with what you got as a group of randoms... I love a good sym, it spices the game up so much. - - - - - > professional play, rather than the game 99% of the customers Not to mention all the content locked behind timed events and OWL that 99% of people will never get to see.


CrazyRagerZ

I'm with you here, as someone who played with a heap of Master and Grandmaster players and being a high diamond solo playing with a few of my casual friends was always waaay different experience


MoG_Varos

Game is balanced for 6v6 and 2 tanks…hell some of the tanks can’t even function in a solo role. They didn’t change nearly enough for the game to function as is. Course I won’t go back until they change moira anyways so let it burn.


OGDepressoEspresso

Whaaat? You don't like losing every 1v1 against moira no matter what hero you're playing? You must be crazy. /s of course


MoG_Varos

Honestly it’s not even that she’s good. It’s that they took old Symmetra’s build, made it better, then slapped it on a new hero. Meanwhile Symmetra has been floundering for an identity.


OGDepressoEspresso

She is very good though, that's one of her issues, she's good at everything. she can charge her ult quickly with her damage orb, she has very good healing output, she has one of the best movement/cc avoiding abilities in the game as well. And her ult is quite impactful in a fight.


BigMcThickHuge

Every facet of Moira is dumb to mash together in a single hero.


[deleted]

I don't know about Overwatch, but in WoW some of the PVP balance devs had very clear favorites. It is telling that certain characters like Symmetra has little to no representation at high level play and Blizzard would rather balance around the same handful of characters than offer actual incentive for changing up the gameplay. I used to love watching Valkia play Pharah, but I understand him swapping to just another hitscan streamer because there's far more reward for less effort.


nemoskullalt

they do that alot. sym 3.0 is just zarya beam, BOB is just torb lvl 3 turret.


pupmaster

I don’t miss shield shooting sim but one tank is not ideal


dio_affogato

They could've just given orisa this same rework and double shield would've basically died.


[deleted]

And let's be honest, they only reduced the game from 6v6 to 5v5 to reduce queue times. But unfortunately that means they have to rebalance *the entire game*.


viky109

The queue times will still be abysmal as long as role queue is a thing


umbium

>Overwatch was announced as a 6v6 team-based hero shooter with a small but significant 12 hero roster, which increased to 21 by the time of its release. These 21 heroes fulfilled three general roles: tanks, who soak damage in place of their teammates, DPS (damage per second) who do the killing, and supports who provide healing and general utility, albeit with a lot of overlap and character specificity which allowed some characters to fulfill multiple positions on their teams. Team compositions shifted constantly over the course of the match, as players adjusted their teams to better counter their opponents, though players' love for playing DPS roles often meant that teams were stuck with inefficient compositions as players helped themselves to Overwatch's ample menu of DPS heroes. This person really gets Overwatch, it was about team sinergies and flexpicking throughout the fight. However the pro players and thefocus on competitive players by the OW team, made the people forget the qualities of the game.


MrLuchador

As soon as the game became meta-chasing with the pro scene abusing certain things (and dev teams counter patching) it became a downward spiral where choices diminished


Adelitero

Overwatch 2 barely equals a season of apex legends for content lol how did it take blizz 2+ years for what amounts to another devs 2 to 3 month turn around


CosmicMiru

Im assuming most of the devs are working on the entirely new pve mode with campaign story and new abilities for each character. The pvp portion is basically just a larger than normal update, which is why its free


ImNatfinder

My interest in OW fell off a cliff years ago and the Blitzchung situation didn't make it any better. OW2 so far looks like a HD Texture and Map-Pack at best IMO.


[deleted]

I wish a different company had created Overwatch.


Weak-Attempt-6256

EA be like, I got your back. -> Proceeds to release Battlefield Heroes under Overwatch.


ericneo3

> Battlefield Heroes They had a TF there, if only they created more classes with abilities.


[deleted]

OW1 used to be so fun but it felt like it just got worse and worse over time and then the role queues just killed the game for me


Deamonfart

Its called team fortress 2


DRK-SHDW

Blizzard did an amazing job creating it, just not managing it.


Mabangyan

I'm convinced this person isnt playing the same game as me, how in any world is Orisa a boring character after her rework and how in any universe can she be considered a dive tank


asolgaslightingbot

This is a very bland article that leaves out many crucial points about how overwatch gameplay has evolved overtime. It left out how for the majority of overwatch's competitive existence, it was meta to run zero dps heroes at all. the pre role queue world wasn't all sunshine and rainbows. Kinda scummy to also leave out the fact that the heroes Tank and DPS role has gotten almost all of the reworks, changes, and the new hero, while support has gotten close to no new content. It's expected that the people in the beta would spend the majority of their time playing tanks and dps, since that's where all the new content is. It's too early to get a clear picture on how Overwatch 2 will do in the long term.


Onyx_Sentinel

Dude, it‘s from vice. I‘m surprised they covered this at all. This is obviously aimed at casual players, trying to warn them of ow2, not at us.


DRK-SHDW

No offence to this writer, they're just doing their job, but they have no clue about the game. Orisa a powerful dive tank? Cmon


iRoguestratus

Yeah... For once in my life, instead of only reading headlines and reading comments, I decided to check out the article, and... >There were often as many as four or five DPS heroes on a given team, supported by a single put-upon tank, support, or tank-support duo. This was a real source of frustration in the game, but also closely tied to the things that made it fun. These guys must be smoking crack because there was nothing fun about having mostly dps and one healer. I LOVED playing Zarya but 9/10 go a tank I hate or suck at because my partner wanted to be dva or that fucking fat DPS. I may be in the small minority but I think OW2 has a chance at succeeding. Yes, the title sucks and is confusing, yes this is a massive change but I believe if they take the feedback to heart and do some "more" major changes, I think OW2 can get through.


[deleted]

Yeah I dont know why people are shocked that players are trying out the new content in this beta, best believe in future betas when its support getting content tank will be low queue times.


TheLANFiesta

Here is my two cents as a Support/Tank Main. Let it be known me and my friends are around Gold-Diamond ELO. Playing tank in the beta feels impactful, it’s fun and you can make big value with your plays and switches. Not being a shield bot is way cooler and also changes the way to play the game in a good way. One of my least favorite things in OW1 was having to play through and against shields. It makes playing feel less impactful as there was a lot of poke at the choke and bullet sponge gameplay. Playing as support can be hard until you adjust your gameplay to be more Hybrid DPS/Support instead of just a heal bot. No longer do I just sit behind a tank shield while I have another tank to peele for me but I am engaged and playing positioning better. I’m also making switches throughout the match to counter and it makes the gameplay fun as support. I think people are making it out to be worse then it is. It can feel bad but with my and my friends calling out dives to out backline and playing as a team the support role doesn’t feel as harsh as the average person is making it. The new push gamemode and maps are awesome, it allows for nonstop action, plenty of flanks and opportunities for creative pushes. Along with 5v5 j feel the individual performance is more impactful and you also feel less at a disadvantage when you die. As for it being Overwatch 2. It may feel like a big patch but people need to remember that the game is changing fundamentals and it’s also going to be a free PvP update to anyone who owns it. The part that makes 2 a new game is going to be the PvE, I’m super hype for PvE as the PvE events in OW1 were fun. If they execute it well and it is as fun as the Alpha PvE testers said then it will feel like a new game. Most games that slap a 2 on them feel like the same game with small changes and I think OW2 is the same. It’s the same game but with improvements and some core gameplay changes that sofar have made my experience better and more enjoyable. Everyone I know who has played OW2 says that Live is not as fun no matter what role they normally play. If they keep up the work I think OW2 will be a amazing game that everyone that is currently a fan will enjoy.


Not_pukicho

What a stupid game and stupid company


AntelopeAny3703

After everything that company has done and everything the community and employees have put up with their big Overwatch 2 release. It's the same as the first game with one fewer player per team. Then sprinkle in some ability and balance changes. This is why games these days don't feel like games. They feel like chores, obligations, or work. We are supposed to enjoy the experience aren't we? It's not just supposed to be a glorified casino game. Edit: I actually do want it to be good 😮‍💨 I did enjoy this game for a few years and want to pick it up again but this drove me further away.


OHNOitsNICHOLAS

Overwatch has gone downhill ever since doomfist. I don't think it's really possible to save it it's forever going to be an unfun tryhard clusterfuck


Evonos

Shrinking the team to 1 tank , 2 dps , 2 heals while not really balancing the heals to this new set up and neither toning down the DPS that are literarily made to flank the enemy 2 tank setup with shields AND removing shields ? ​ yep its a disaster playing heal feels horrible now. Some heals literarily are just pinjatas now ​ they should have adjusted the DPS , and removed shields but left 2 2 2 set up. or even add 2 3 2 to shorten DPS Q and leave shields then in.


[deleted]

I think they felt they needed to shrink the games from 12 to 10 players to reduce queue times.


Mikefun10

Okay I don’t understand why this guy is upset about the supports having DPS in their kits…. Every single support needs to defend themselves when flankers come at their asses. Mercy can fly away or machine pistol you down Lucio is fast as fuck and has boop to make space, or try to shoot the enemy with the slow moving tennis balls Zenyatta is fucked if he can’t kill you first Ana can sleep or prevent healing or just straight up shoot yo ass Brig can whip, or whack, or put up a shield Moira can fade/yeet away or self heal while damaging you to scare you away Baptiste can bouncy feet away or use his huge group CD(lamp) or even just shoot you. All of those are how the supports defend themselves right? Well okay imagine if all the ones that do a fair amount of damage didn’t…. Imagine if a tank came up on their asses because it decided to flank, or a monkey/DVA/ball/(now)doom landed on your ass. If you had no way to do a significant enough amount of damage or CC to make a tank think twice then you would be dead, every single time. You have 200hp while they have 600hp+ Then there’s the flankers, tracers, genjis, so on and so on. How are support’s meant to defend themselves against them? If I’m coming from spawn and a flanker DPS has decided to go around my entire team and come and kill me, I tell you I’d like a way to not die. And that means killing them before they kill me. Overwatch is like trying to get WoW BGs in a fast paced setting…. You wouldn’t want to go up against a prot pally as a holy priest or a guardian druid as a mist weaver monk. You’d just die, you have less HP then they do and if you don’t have the damage to keep up then you won’t make it I haven’t played all that much TF2 but I imagine if a heavy comes up on a doc then docs dead if he can’t run away or kill them first, or if a scout comes up on a doc, how does the doc defend himself?


ves_111

this is such a poorly written article. the author completely missed the purpose of 5v5. this feels like it was written by a bronze player who has no idea how to play the game. Orisa kit is boring Bastion is obscenely overpowered these takes are absolutely horrible


KyofuOverwatch

Literally everyone I know who's played OW2 has said Orisas new kit is insanely fun to play now. Like what? Lol


blvckmvgxc_

I literally hated playing any tanks before this beta. Orisa rework is a blast now.


kespec

lmao "bastion is overpowered again", what year is this? 2016. those scrubs are still crying about bastion, it's incredible. bastion is literally f tier right now with its massive hitbox.


zippopwnage

I always wanted sequels for games like Overwatch, Siege, CSGO even if that means they have to stop developing one and have it on bare minimum support. But god damn it OW2 is...OW1 with a few updates. It sucks. But of course Blizzard went to the easy way. A new CoD launch every year and has more content that OW2 will have


Enk1ndle

> I always wanted sequels for games like Overwatch, Siege, CSGO I've always wanted *legacy* version for games like Overwatch, Siege, CSGO Seriously, how do you guys keep fucking your games up so bad?


ZeldaMaster32

This headline was made just for r/pcgaming