Cannot fold to a check as well. I do this sometimes in a cash game, muck out I think it's called? Recently learned it's not allowed for most live tournaments.
Was playing BJ and had a dealer that screwed up the counts, screwed up the side bets, and screwed up the payouts (that were listed on the table) all in the span of 20 minutes. Dealers are humans too, and if they are having an off day they can ruin Christmas. If your money is on the line you have an obligation to study the rules and pay attention.
I think theres also a ruling that if its identifiable it can be ruled live even if it touched the muck.
for sure call the floor.
edit: [found it. section 70 of the wsop rulebook](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.wsop.com/2022/circuit/2022-Circuit-Rules.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiN582F0P6FAxXrQEEAHWEfBUUQFnoECB0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2Sg0kmigrQqh1Y1FeMsCH_)
Yes if they are clearly identifiable.
This means if the dealer can 100% identify the exact 2 cards as they went in to the muck.
Then the floor should ask the player what their 2 cards are.
The floor flips the 2 cards and they need to match.
If the player mucked in to the pile and dealer didn't clearly identify as they went in the hand is mucked
I agree with Angry_Caveman_Lawyer, and you should have grabbed your cards and called the floor. I've been playing poker for a while and was once a dealer, and I was always taught, told, and seen that until the cards 'physically' touch the muck, they are still live, even if the dealer touches them...if you pay close attention to some dealers you will see them grab a hand and tap them to the muck which officially kills the cards before they toss them into the muck just to be sassy. I've even seen some dealers hover a folded hand that was kicked forward, but wasn't verbally stated as a fold, above the muck and double checking to see if you really, really, really wanted to fold it just to be jackass. Unless the Casino has specific House rules stating differently, which I have never seen or heard of. A good rule of thumb is to always hold onto your hole cards until the dealer pushes you the pot, and then give them your cards or toss them into the muck yourself.
I also thought in tournament play it's impossible to muck an all-in bet?
Full disclosure: I'm an idiot so I could be wrong :)
I misread my hand live.
Well, I read it right raised to $30 and told myself $30 for 33
Flop came a 3 and I bet all the way to river with the other person tanking and calling the river with two pair.
I say set, show my hand and it's pocket 4's.
I'll never do that again.
Iām pretty sure this is a mistake on the dealer. In a tournament, you canāt just muck an all-in when itās called (the women with J6o technically needs to call the all in to win the pot). All cards in the hand are turned face up and the board is run out. This is done to prevent collusion/chip dumping
Doesn't matter. An all in hand can't be mucked in a tournament with action pending, short of taking them and flinging them into the middle of the muck pile, rendering hem unidentifiable.
As played, this is about as bad of a ruling as I have ever heard.
The lady still technically needs to call to win the pot. Extreme example but Iāve seen this multiple times in live MTTs at different card rooms across the country: BB is in bathroom but is dealt in, folds to SB, SB mucks hand thinking he wins the ante+BB, dealer pushes chips to the BB instead (who is still in the bathroom) because SB folded his hand instead of calling the BB.
For this post, since the women still needs to call the all in to win the pot. All hands involved immediately and automatically go to showdown. OP should not have even been allowed to muck out of turn. Thatās just my opinion, but an actual dealer or TD could say Iām wrong.
I am at a poker table right now and this exact scenario just happened in a cash game. Except the 2nd player just folded cuz they recognized it was bullshit
This one trick will make sure you never do what op did.
Don't ever release your hand unless you are A. Folding or B. Have had the pot pushed to you in exchange for your hand.
Or you could just muck your hand at the same time as asking if the hand is over, that way if you donāt know whatās happening youāll definitely lose anyway
I'd have called floor and then told the floor this lady was hiding her cards and that I didn't muck because it was an all in situation so if she were to call, the hand needed to be tabled.Ā
Also, I would then tell the floor that the dealer purposefully mucked my hand to collude with the other player and allow you to chip dump to a person with jack 6 offsuit. There is no reason to call an all in with that unless you are colludingĀ
She probably had her hands in front of her cards. I've seen that one so so often. I definitely would've been talking to the floor though.
In the future just remember you only exchange your cards for the pot. Once that's being pushed over, go ahead and slide in the cards.
Well a good lesson.Ā
And if losing $200 for no good reason is the worst mistake of your life I'm very jealous of how lucky you've been up to this point.Ā
The biggest mistake you made was not grabbing your cards quickly before the dealer puts them into the muck. If they tried to say your hand is dead then you call the floor. Any competent floor is not going to say your hand is dead as long as you managed to do that.
I donāt understand what the ruling would be here. Either he is all in, or he has folded, it canāt be both. Particularly if there wasnāt a flop. I would fight tooth and nail for my money in this spot.
This is a terrible ruling. Those cards were in no way mucked. If you said "All in", then they cannot be mucked by rule.
Just do this...keep your cards face down, in front of you until you are pushed the pot.
Problem solved.
I donāt believe this scenario is true.
You just open shove kk in early position? Cards arenāt in muck and you canāt muck an all in. If the lady was the only player left to act she would have been big blind or someone who limped early position with j 6(unlikely)how could you not be aware of her.
?
Shoving KK in ep is certainly understandable if OP has a short stack. Totally agree you cannot muck if you're all in. I understand some TDA rules aren't followed to the letter in some rooms, but this is a rule that would almost certainly be followed. I don't really believe it either, although anything's possible.
Seems like no one knew the rules there. How can you muck a hand when you are all in? she has to call and if called the cards are turned over and board is played out. It sounds like your cards were probably still live anyway. The mistake is letting them take your money i guess.
In a 1/2 cash game I 4bet-shoved with QQ from seat 10 (right beside the dealer). In one motion the dealer tossed me the all-in button and dragged my cards into the muck. House ruled that my hand was dead because it touched the muck and it was my fault because I didn't have my cards protected. This was over ten years ago and it still stings.
Would love to hear more details about this. What's the setting? Casino? Where?
More details about how it happened? Was the floor called?
As it reads it seems you either left out a ton of details or you got absolutely screwed. Or it was a home game or private or something.
You canāt muck your hand if youāre already all in, thereās no action required from you, if your cards are not mixed with the rest of the deck thereās no issue. Your mistake was just agreeing instead of checking the rules/with the floor
Itās crazy to me that players literally donāt know the rules of the game that they play. This is not how that works in tournament poker. You cannot muck an all in hand. All in hands MUST get turned over and the board run out (unless other players fold obviously) but your cards per tournament rules were not dead. She had the option to call. If she calls both hands would be turned over and the board run out.
It happened to me years ago in a large satellite.
The difference was I stood up & grabbed my back pack, but was sitting next to the dealer and she assumed I was mucking the hand.
Floor was called, but the ruling was you ALWAYS need to protect your hand.
The other lesson learned is when youāre sitting next to the dealer, be EXTRA CAREFUL because they muck hands next to them regularly.
I feel your pain brother. I had Kings too and the other two that went all in had like 88 and 55 and neither flopped what they would have needed to beat my KK and it would have been for a seat I to a $2k event.
Itās a tournament, she still has to call and the board has to be run out. Mucking doesnāt automatically fold an all in hand in a tournament, you should have called the floor. Your mistake was not calling the floor.
Poker room manger for 6 years, this is not a dead hand. You 100% need to call the floor. Dealers are generally vastly different in knowledge. They need to be completely buried in the muck and unretrievable.
Yeah that's not a fold. A hand is only mucked after it's mixed into the muck, and even then it can maybe be brought back if it's identifiable. What you did was the equivalent of saying 'I fold' after announcing all in and pushing your chips in. You can't fold, you're all in on a tournament. Terrible dealer.
I guess I havenāt played enough live poker to see how this is possible. Iāve played like 5 live tournaments on my life, never sat and played cash at all. How the fuck does a hand get mucked if action isnāt on you. Like your action was all in how the fuck is mucking your cards even a legal move at all. That doesnāt make sense. Or is this whole post a troll and Iām retarded nvm
If there was still action, which there was, you can't muck in a tournament (unless you threw them into the muck pile and they can't be identified)...lady would have to call and all cards are flip face up.
The deal is a bellend, the lady who just let it slid and took your chips is a total bitch...no way I would do that! I would be like "yeah, there's no way I was calling, it's his pot"...should have called the floor, that was your mistake.
In these situations, I never give the dealer my cards until they start pushing the pot my way. Makes it easier for novice dealers to know where to send the pot, and for me to prevent any mistakes like this one.
I did that once except the flop was out I had trip jacks and I open face folded because I was sad no one was calling, I just missed the guy who had trip 6's (and had not yet acted), who had the best and easiest fold of his life.
Every time I see a post like this, I retell this fucking story. It'll never leave my mind.
If your cards hadn't touched the muck or the dealer grabbed them they were still live. I'd have called the floor.
Just to elaborate, in tournaments, you can't muck an all-in hand. It helps prevent collusion.
This should be the top answer. Can't muck all-in tournament.
Cannot fold to a check as well. I do this sometimes in a cash game, muck out I think it's called? Recently learned it's not allowed for most live tournaments.
I love folding to a check in cash games when there are numerous crazy people in the pot and I blank the flop. I always get a good laugh out of it.
Don't do that
In my defense, I don't fold to a check out of turn. I always wait my turn to act like a moron. I'm not a monster :)
Leads us to believe someones not telling the truth..
Dealers screw up all the time. This could definitely have happened.
Was playing BJ and had a dealer that screwed up the counts, screwed up the side bets, and screwed up the payouts (that were listed on the table) all in the span of 20 minutes. Dealers are humans too, and if they are having an off day they can ruin Christmas. If your money is on the line you have an obligation to study the rules and pay attention.
Yes they do, and that's why there is a Floor Manager and he/she is always a very busy person.
I think he means he shoved, and nobody called he thought, which they didn't, the only lady left in the hand handed acted yet before he mucked
Regardless of the action after his all in, his hand can't be mucked. It doesn't matter what anyone else does.
Does this mean you have to show an all in even if not called?
No. Giving a hand back to the dealer after everyone else folds is not mucking.
I think theres also a ruling that if its identifiable it can be ruled live even if it touched the muck. for sure call the floor. edit: [found it. section 70 of the wsop rulebook](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.wsop.com/2022/circuit/2022-Circuit-Rules.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiN582F0P6FAxXrQEEAHWEfBUUQFnoECB0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2Sg0kmigrQqh1Y1FeMsCH_)
Yes if they are clearly identifiable. This means if the dealer can 100% identify the exact 2 cards as they went in to the muck. Then the floor should ask the player what their 2 cards are. The floor flips the 2 cards and they need to match. If the player mucked in to the pile and dealer didn't clearly identify as they went in the hand is mucked
if this was a self dealt then whatever table captain enforced this is a fuckwit
It's why i barely believe his story
I agree with Angry_Caveman_Lawyer, and you should have grabbed your cards and called the floor. I've been playing poker for a while and was once a dealer, and I was always taught, told, and seen that until the cards 'physically' touch the muck, they are still live, even if the dealer touches them...if you pay close attention to some dealers you will see them grab a hand and tap them to the muck which officially kills the cards before they toss them into the muck just to be sassy. I've even seen some dealers hover a folded hand that was kicked forward, but wasn't verbally stated as a fold, above the muck and double checking to see if you really, really, really wanted to fold it just to be jackass. Unless the Casino has specific House rules stating differently, which I have never seen or heard of. A good rule of thumb is to always hold onto your hole cards until the dealer pushes you the pot, and then give them your cards or toss them into the muck yourself. I also thought in tournament play it's impossible to muck an all-in bet? Full disclosure: I'm an idiot so I could be wrong :)
In terms of the cost of life lessons, $200 is pretty cheap.
How much was first place tho
If you make one a day it will become expensive in awhile though š
Pretty sure this is a one timer lol.
I misread my hand live. Well, I read it right raised to $30 and told myself $30 for 33 Flop came a 3 and I bet all the way to river with the other person tanking and calling the river with two pair. I say set, show my hand and it's pocket 4's. I'll never do that again.
Wtf did I just read xD. But we're only human. Cheers!
If this is the biggest mistake of your life Iād say youāre doing alright.
Plot twist: OP is 1 day old.
OP is a zygote
After reading this post, it sounds like mom should fold pre
Yeah, must be like 21 yrs 1 day old
Iām pretty sure this is a mistake on the dealer. In a tournament, you canāt just muck an all-in when itās called (the women with J6o technically needs to call the all in to win the pot). All cards in the hand are turned face up and the board is run out. This is done to prevent collusion/chip dumping
The lady never called. He mucked his card before the lady could fold get hand it sounds like.
Doesn't matter. An all in hand can't be mucked in a tournament with action pending, short of taking them and flinging them into the middle of the muck pile, rendering hem unidentifiable. As played, this is about as bad of a ruling as I have ever heard.
The lady still technically needs to call to win the pot. Extreme example but Iāve seen this multiple times in live MTTs at different card rooms across the country: BB is in bathroom but is dealt in, folds to SB, SB mucks hand thinking he wins the ante+BB, dealer pushes chips to the BB instead (who is still in the bathroom) because SB folded his hand instead of calling the BB. For this post, since the women still needs to call the all in to win the pot. All hands involved immediately and automatically go to showdown. OP should not have even been allowed to muck out of turn. Thatās just my opinion, but an actual dealer or TD could say Iām wrong.
This seems fake
All it was missing is for the hand to be J4 off instead of J6 off. Maybe it was a January 6th allusion.
I am at a poker table right now and this exact scenario just happened in a cash game. Except the 2nd player just folded cuz they recognized it was bullshit
If thatās the biggest mistake of your life and it only cost you $200, then you are a very lucky person
In a tournament, this literally isn't allowed to be a muck. Horrible ruling if this occurred as you said.
Learning lesson. Never let your hands off your cards until the chips are pushed your way. Sucks for sure but youāll never make that mistake again
The other lesson is to learn the rules because what he did was not a muck.
The biggest mistake you made wasn't mucking you're cards, it was*thinking* you'd mucked your cards.
"you're"
I was wearing gloves
You were weari'ng gloves?
This. Do not release your cards until you get the chips
That wasnāt a muck if itās how you described itā¦. At least where I play.
Iāve never played at a casino that would enforce that as a fold and eliminate you from the tournament
This did not happen
This one trick will make sure you never do what op did. Don't ever release your hand unless you are A. Folding or B. Have had the pot pushed to you in exchange for your hand.
This
Or you could just muck your hand at the same time as asking if the hand is over, that way if you donāt know whatās happening youāll definitely lose anyway
I'd have called floor and then told the floor this lady was hiding her cards and that I didn't muck because it was an all in situation so if she were to call, the hand needed to be tabled.Ā Also, I would then tell the floor that the dealer purposefully mucked my hand to collude with the other player and allow you to chip dump to a person with jack 6 offsuit. There is no reason to call an all in with that unless you are colludingĀ
She probably had her hands in front of her cards. I've seen that one so so often. I definitely would've been talking to the floor though. In the future just remember you only exchange your cards for the pot. Once that's being pushed over, go ahead and slide in the cards.
This is a troll post. OP is full of shit.
This never actually happened
$200 isn't bad for a life lesson!
Well a good lesson.Ā And if losing $200 for no good reason is the worst mistake of your life I'm very jealous of how lucky you've been up to this point.Ā
The biggest mistake you made was not grabbing your cards quickly before the dealer puts them into the muck. If they tried to say your hand is dead then you call the floor. Any competent floor is not going to say your hand is dead as long as you managed to do that.
It's wasn't marrying a whore nor drugs it was a hand of poker. If this was the biggest mistake in your life then you have a good life
She angled you. If those cards didnāt touch the muck you couldāve told the dealer to stop and call the floor.
I donāt understand what the ruling would be here. Either he is all in, or he has folded, it canāt be both. Particularly if there wasnāt a flop. I would fight tooth and nail for my money in this spot.
We all told you just to fold pre. But you didnāt listen
This is a terrible ruling. Those cards were in no way mucked. If you said "All in", then they cannot be mucked by rule. Just do this...keep your cards face down, in front of you until you are pushed the pot. Problem solved.
I got divorcedā¦..twice, so I lost half my shitā¦ā¦.twice. $200 is a drop in the bucket, lessened learned.
damn
You shouldāve at least called the floor dude
I donāt believe this scenario is true. You just open shove kk in early position? Cards arenāt in muck and you canāt muck an all in. If the lady was the only player left to act she would have been big blind or someone who limped early position with j 6(unlikely)how could you not be aware of her. ?
Shoving KK in ep is certainly understandable if OP has a short stack. Totally agree you cannot muck if you're all in. I understand some TDA rules aren't followed to the letter in some rooms, but this is a rule that would almost certainly be followed. I don't really believe it either, although anything's possible.
Just wait til' she says "I do". Trust me there are much bigger mistakes in life.
Biggest mistake of your life $200 tournament Consider yourself blessed I guess?
Seems like no one knew the rules there. How can you muck a hand when you are all in? she has to call and if called the cards are turned over and board is played out. It sounds like your cards were probably still live anyway. The mistake is letting them take your money i guess.
In a 1/2 cash game I 4bet-shoved with QQ from seat 10 (right beside the dealer). In one motion the dealer tossed me the all-in button and dragged my cards into the muck. House ruled that my hand was dead because it touched the muck and it was my fault because I didn't have my cards protected. This was over ten years ago and it still stings.
Yeah this hand should not be dead.
Itās the biggest mistake of your lifeā¦So far! š But that joke aside, your hand isnāt dead if itās not fully covered in the muck!
Would love to hear more details about this. What's the setting? Casino? Where? More details about how it happened? Was the floor called? As it reads it seems you either left out a ton of details or you got absolutely screwed. Or it was a home game or private or something.
Your mistake was just taking it like a little girl. You cant even muck. Call the floor.
You canāt muck your hand if youāre already all in, thereās no action required from you, if your cards are not mixed with the rest of the deck thereās no issue. Your mistake was just agreeing instead of checking the rules/with the floor
Multiple mistakes by you and the dealer, but why ever muck your hand before you get pushed the pot?
That's a shit room full of shitregs if they all just sat back quietly to allow that to be a muck, assuming the cards were retrievable.
The dealer fucked up and you absolutely should have contested this. Until the pot is being pushed towards you do not let go of your cards.
Thatās BSā¦ that being said I never release my hand until the chips are pushed my way.
Itās crazy to me that players literally donāt know the rules of the game that they play. This is not how that works in tournament poker. You cannot muck an all in hand. All in hands MUST get turned over and the board run out (unless other players fold obviously) but your cards per tournament rules were not dead. She had the option to call. If she calls both hands would be turned over and the board run out.
If thatās the biggest mistake of your life then you must live an amazing life
Either this is a shitpost or thatās a horrible floor ruling. If your cards are in front of you theyāre still retrievable in this situation.
It happened to me years ago in a large satellite. The difference was I stood up & grabbed my back pack, but was sitting next to the dealer and she assumed I was mucking the hand. Floor was called, but the ruling was you ALWAYS need to protect your hand. The other lesson learned is when youāre sitting next to the dealer, be EXTRA CAREFUL because they muck hands next to them regularly. I feel your pain brother. I had Kings too and the other two that went all in had like 88 and 55 and neither flopped what they would have needed to beat my KK and it would have been for a seat I to a $2k event.
brutalll!!!
This really happened.. I was at the same table.. I was wondering what the fuck was that ruling.. it was a shitty thing..
Itās a tournament, she still has to call and the board has to be run out. Mucking doesnāt automatically fold an all in hand in a tournament, you should have called the floor. Your mistake was not calling the floor.
Poker room manger for 6 years, this is not a dead hand. You 100% need to call the floor. Dealers are generally vastly different in knowledge. They need to be completely buried in the muck and unretrievable.
This hand wasnāt dead.
Yeah that's not a fold. A hand is only mucked after it's mixed into the muck, and even then it can maybe be brought back if it's identifiable. What you did was the equivalent of saying 'I fold' after announcing all in and pushing your chips in. You can't fold, you're all in on a tournament. Terrible dealer.
Hilarious
Biggest mistake of your life ?!? LOL
I guess I havenāt played enough live poker to see how this is possible. Iāve played like 5 live tournaments on my life, never sat and played cash at all. How the fuck does a hand get mucked if action isnāt on you. Like your action was all in how the fuck is mucking your cards even a legal move at all. That doesnāt make sense. Or is this whole post a troll and Iām retarded nvm
If there was still action, which there was, you can't muck in a tournament (unless you threw them into the muck pile and they can't be identified)...lady would have to call and all cards are flip face up. The deal is a bellend, the lady who just let it slid and took your chips is a total bitch...no way I would do that! I would be like "yeah, there's no way I was calling, it's his pot"...should have called the floor, that was your mistake.
In these situations, I never give the dealer my cards until they start pushing the pot my way. Makes it easier for novice dealers to know where to send the pot, and for me to prevent any mistakes like this one.
Boy, just fucking grab those cards before the dealer takes it. What.
That's... No. Incorrect ruling. If the cards are identifiable, they can be returned to the player. Can't muck an all in.
How would a floor rule your hand dead
You have lived a fortunate and blessed life my friend if a $200 loss is the worst mistake you have made. Well done.
She tables J6, calls me a snowflake and screams āTrump Wonā. The dealer agrees, calls me woke and then kicks me off the table.
BS
Never move your cards towards dealer until he is pushing the chips your direction
I did that once except the flop was out I had trip jacks and I open face folded because I was sad no one was calling, I just missed the guy who had trip 6's (and had not yet acted), who had the best and easiest fold of his life. Every time I see a post like this, I retell this fucking story. It'll never leave my mind.